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AVIATION SAFETY: SHOULD AIRLINES BE REQUIRED TO SHARE PILOT PERFORMANCE RECORDS?
PLEASE NOTE: The following transcript is a portion of the official hearing record of the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure. Additional material pertinent to this transcript may be found on the web site of the Committee at [http://www.house.gov/transportation]. Complete hearing records are available for review at the Committee offices and also may be purchased at the U.S. Government Printing Office.
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1995
U.S. House of Representatives,
Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure,
Subcommittee on Aviation,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:30 a.m. in room 2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. John J. Duncan, Jr. (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. DUNCAN. Good morning. The hearing will come to order.
I want to first of all welcome everyone to the second day of our hearings on the issue of sharing pilot performance records. We had a very interesting and informative first day of hearings yesterday with many Members present and a lot of interest. I know Mr. Lipinski has called and said he is running late and some other Members, but we're going to go ahead and get started here.
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I first want to thank once again the witnesses from yesterday. We heard from Members of Congress, the FAA Administrator David Hinson, Chairman Jim Hall of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is here with us again today and I'm very impressed by that, and several experts in the aviation industry. I think the testimony that we heard as well as the questions from the subcommittee Members was very constructive and will be helpful as we move forward on this issue.
Let me also thank the witnesses who are here today, many of whom have travelled from all across the Nation and Canada to be here with us. The subcommittee appreciates the time and effort that all of you have taken to be here to share your views on this matter of sharing pilot records. I will be brief this morning so that we can move on and get to the witnesses quickly. However, I would like to especially thank the family members of some of the victims aboard flight 3379 as well as Ms. Anderson, who was fortunate to have survived that crash, for agreeing to testify today on such a personal and difficult matter. As I read your prepared statements last night, I was moved and impressed and I wondered how I, or anyone, would react to this same tragedy. One can only guess as to how such a tragedy would affect them, but, until it actually happens to you, you really I guess can't fully understand what all you go through.
We're having these hearings yesterday and today to discuss this trend we see in the aviation industry of pilots with poor training records or even violations slipping through the cracks and, unfortunately, leading to tragedies. I think no matter how emotional this issue might be, this subcommittee must carefully fashion legislation that works—that really works—and not something that just sends all of us home feeling better. I admire each of you for your courage and strength for being here today.
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Mr. Lipinski, the ranking member, has called and he will be here shortly. But at this time, I want to recognize my good friend, Mr. Traficant from Ohio.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you once again for holding these important hearings. I know that there will be action. When Congressman Duncan is involved in an important issue like this, there will be a resolution. I have complete confidence in him. I think all the witnesses should understand that his record speaks to that type of performance.
For the past 8 years, Mr. Chairman, there have been six commercial airplane crashes, all but one on small airlines. Five of those crashes are now attributable to pilot error. One hundred, eleven people were killed in these crashes. In most cases, the employing airline was not aware that the pilots had documented histories of poor performance with other airlines.
The most recent of these crashes occurred on December 13, 1994, when American Eagle flight 3379 in route from Greensboro, North Carolina to Raleigh-Durham crashed four miles short of the runway while attempting an instrument controlled landing in poor weather conditions. Thirteen passengers and two crew members were killed. The pilot, Captain Mike Hillis, was hired by American Eagle just 4 days after he was forced to quit by his previous employer because of poor piloting skills. American Eagle had no knowledge of his prior poor performance ratings or the fact that he had, in effect, been fired for poor piloting skills.
Mr. Chairman, one of the passengers who died on flight 3379 was William Gibson of Kernersvlle, North Carolina. Mr. Gibson's parents, Mary Ann and Howard, are here today. I wish they weren't here, didn't have to be here, Mr. Chairman. His mom, Mary Ann, will be testifying along with his sister, Susan Gibson-Berson. Mary Ann and Howard are residents of Warren, Ohio, my constituents. Bill Gibson was 39 years old when he died. In addition to his parents and sisters, he left behind his wife, Roberta, three beautiful children, Katie, age twelve, Cortney, age nine, and Ross, age four. William was a senior executive accountant for American Sun Roof Corporation. His death was a tragedy, a tragedy shared by the families and friends of other victims who died in airplane accidents that could have been avoided. This Congress must ensure that we promulgate standards that will, in fact, hopefully lead to prevention of these.
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I reluctantly welcome the beautiful family. I wish you did not have to be here for these purposes, and for all of this first panel. Once again, I thank you for holding these hearings, Mr. Chairman.
[Mr. Traficant's prepared statement follows:]
[Insert here.]
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. Traficant. I've mentioned it several times before, but in the last Congress Mr. Traficant was chairman of the Public Buildings and Grounds Subcommittee and I was his ranking member. I have told many people that if there was a chairman and ranking member who had a closer relationship in the whole Congress, I would like to have met them. Mr. Traficant is one of the finest members that we have in this Congress and I appreciate his efforts.
I also feel very good about the new ranking member of this subcommittee, Mr. Bill Lipinski, who has been so kind to me in the short time that he's worked with us on these issues. He is developing a real expertise in this field. I want to turn to him now and let him have any time that he wishes to say anything he wants to say.
Mr. LIPINSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will be very brief. I simply want to apologize to you and to Congressman Traficant, the staff, and all of you people here for my tardy arrival here this morning. Unfortunately, things sometimes get backed up, such as when I left here last night about 12:15 395 was shut down and I sat there for 45 minutes trying to get home. So it slowed everything down. But I'm very anxious to hear what all of you have to say this morning. I, too, am very sad that you have to be here under these circumstances. But, hopefully, it will wind up ultimately benefiting the flying public what you have to say here today and what we wind up doing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you. Let me do one other thing here. One of the best friends on my side of the aisle and one of our real leaders is Congressman Joe Knollenberg of Michigan. He has some constituents who are involved in this also. Joe, I'm going to just call on you for any comment that you wish to make, and would you please just introduce your constituents.
Mr. KNOLLENBERG . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do appreciate the work that you're doing. I think it's very important that you have taken the leadership to hold these hearings and to hear the testimony of these individuals. I happen to know Bill and Susan Kast very well. They are personal friends of mine, they live in my District, and we were carried along with the story by virtue of their telling us about the facts of the case. When the event occurred, little did we know it was anything more than one of those unusual cases, one of those unusual situations that just happen. It was an accident. To their horror and obviously their family's horror, and to all of the folks who are testifying here this morning, they found out that something else was amiss; this whole problem.
And so, again, I am just delighted to be able to introduce Susan Kast and Bill Kast from my District. I'm looking forward to their testimony and all the testimony from the various individuals who are here this morning, families of victims and we have a survivor as well.
So with that, I again want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your leadership in bringing about this hearing. Thank you very much.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Congressman Knollenberg.
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We will now begin the testimony. Mr. and Mrs. Kast have been introduced by their Congressman. They are from Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. Mrs. Mary Ann Gibson has been introduced by her Congressman, Mr. Traficant. She is from Warren, Ohio. We also have with us today Mrs. Susan Gibson-Berson from Valencia, California. We have Mr. Jeffrey Josefson and Mr. Wayne S. Josefson from North Kingstown, Rhode Island. And we have Ms. Lauren Anderson. I suppose that we'll just start and go down this way, if that's acceptable with all of you. That means that Mr. Kast I guess is going to go first.
TESTIMONY OF WILHELM AND SIGRUN KAST, BLOOMFIELD HILLS, MI; MARY ANN GIBSON, WARREN, OH; SUSAN GIBSON-BERSON, VALENCIA, CA; JEFFREY AND WAYNE S. JOSEFSON, NORTH KINGSTOWN, RI; AND LAUREN AND MARIE ANDERSON, STONY BROOK, NY
Mr. KAST. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. And thank you Joe Knollenberg. You are the best of friends. You are a friend in need.
The question of whether airlines be required to share pilot performance records should no longer be an issue considering the scandalous facts which were discovered after the tragic American Eagle crash 1 year ago to the day. Jonathan Kast, our son, and twelve other passengers on flight 3379 would not have been killed had American Eagle requested, received, and evaluated the performance records at ComAir of job applicant Michael P. Hillis. There can be no doubt that had American Eagle flight 3379 been piloted by a competent aviator on December 13, 1994, Jonathan would be with us today. ComAir had good recordkeeping but the records were never requested by American Eagle. American Eagle had poor recordkeeping and, to make matters worse, during his 4 years at American Eagle, the company was either too negligent or too stupid to evaluate Hillis' ongoing inept performance. Instead, American Eagle made Hillis a captain by breaking the rules and by giving him undue remedial slack during evaluations and examinations.
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Our son, Jonathan, and twelve fellow passengers on American Eagle 3379 would not have been killed 12 months ago had it not been for the extreme negligence and greed of American Eagle and their top management under the control of Robert Crandall, AMR's chairman.
Yesterday, when asked by Representative LaHood whether the flying public should be concerned about cockpit crew quality, the answer from the airline industry representatives testifying was, no. Jonathan Kast and twelve other dead passengers would disagree. The industry is simply dead wrong.
You have been elected by us, the people, to represent us fairly. Today, as the citizens who put you here, we are calling on you to become earnest about this trust which we have placed in you. We are asking you to hold those responsible who are contracted by you to safeguard air traffic passengers. Specifically, we are asking you to hold the Federal Aviation Administration accountable. It was very disheartening yesterday to listen to the head of the FAA, David Hinson. He showed an inflated concern over, and I quote, ''Legal protection for those who share data on the performance of pilots,'' i.e., the airlines, or as he referred to them several times, ''our industry.'' At last count, he is paid by the people of the United States and he is accountable to us.
When asked by Representative Traficant whether he knows of any laws, rules regulations, or statutes which would make it illegal to exchange pilot performance data, Hinson answered, no. Clearly, new legislation is not needed. By codifying the vast body of existing law, you can instruct the FAA to order the airlines to provide pilot performance data. If the FAA can rule that passengers must show a photo I.D. before they can enter a plane, then the FAA can also rule that the airlines keep and make available pilot performance data before a pilot is allowed to enter and fly a plane. Both are security considerations of the utmost importance.
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As to the privacy concerns claimed by the industry and the FAA, they are totally unjustified. We are talking about sharing professional performance data not private lifestyle data. Yet, under the worst of circumstances, an unlawful violation of a pilot's right to privacy can be healed in a court of law. The life of an air crash victim is lost forever. A pilot performance record exchange program can be effective and uncomplicated at the same time. All we need is your oversight mandate instructing the FAA to follow through on existing laws and regulations. Members of this committee, had these fourteen innocent people been told of the performance, the story of Michael Patrick Hillis prior to takeoff that fateful night, they would have walked right off that plane. They would have run.
Unfortunately, there is nothing more we can do for the dead of American Eagle flight 3379. However, there is your responsibility and your accountability to the American people. You must act now. The legacy of the fifteen people killed by American Eagle in this avoidable disaster has driven a new movement all over America, a movement which makes needless death a call for action to promote safety in the air for our people. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Kast.
Mrs. Kast?
Mrs. KAST. A year ago today at this very moment my husband and I were flying to Raleigh-Durham to identify our son's body, at least that's what people think we did. But I wanted to go there and I wanted to see him one last time. For myself, I had to see what they had done to him, what this accident had done to my son.
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The lives and safety of passengers should always be the most important consideration in the decisionmaking process of people who hire, train, and evaluate, and fire pilots. Yes, privacy is important. But how do you compare one person's right to privacy with three little children's right to grow up having a father, to a young woman's right to sharing her life with her husband, and eight brothers and sisters' right to their brother's leadership. What exactly is it we are protecting when we protect the right to privacy? Doesn't my right to privacy end when it conflicts with another person's right to live?
Credit card companies have access to all kinds of information concerning an individual's financial and employment data. There are rules to protect misuse and misinformation, and that system seems to work rather efficiently. Why then can an air carrier like AMR American Eagle claim that in processing pilot Michael Hillis it did not ask for employment performance information concerning his previous jobs?
Again, as in previous air disasters involving pilot incompetence, we are confronted with the anguishing reality that important questions are asked only after death and suffering; in this instance, the snuffed out lives of fifteen people. The concern is voiced that employers are afraid to be subject to litigation from disgruntled employees if they pass on employment records that are unfavorable. To the best of my knowledge, there is no law in this country that says one cannot give out truthful, accurate information. Yes, it would be unlawful to give out false information or information that does not pertain to an individual's professional performance. But just as it would be wrong to hire a blind driver, it must be unthinkable that AMR American Eagle would hire a pilot with the record of Michael Hillis. As long as the information is factual and accurate, one has to take the chance at a lawsuit. My son's life should have been a lot more important than an airline's fear of a lawsuit.
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In this case, to protect 1 young man's right to privacy and to save an airline the trouble of seeking out everything they could find about his record 15 people lost their lives. According to the NTSB, 72 persons were killed in 4 separate accidents, all of which would not have happened had the airlines been willing to check out and share information concerning the pilots' records. Are 72 lives not enough to pay for the risk of maybe infringing on someone's right to privacy? Are 72 lives not enough to pay for the inconvenience an airline might have from a frivolous lawsuit?
I lost my son whom I brought to this country when he was only 11 months old. His brutal murder destroyed all our lives. Our family will never be whole again. My little grandson will never remember his father who loved him so much and who was so proud of him. He will never know the man our son was. My granddaughters, they are old enough to remember him, they will have to grow up without his guidance, advice, and, above all, his love and protection. My daughter-in-law has to face raising the children alone without the emotional, physical, and financial support of her husband, without his love to sustain her in difficult times. And my own remaining children who live very complex lives will now always be terrified when they have to go on an airplane. But still this is the smaller one of their problems, for there is a big black hole where their brother used to be. There are nightmares they awaken from screaming. There is trembling every time the telephone rings. And there's the impulse in happy as well as sad times to say, ''I have to tell that to Jonathan.'' or ''I wonder what Jonathan would do in this situation.'' And then comes the tears for never again will he be here with his advice and his hugs and kisses and his presence.
But the biggest loss of all is not ours, it is not even his wife's or children's for we are all here. And with our love for each other and our determination to succeed, we will make it. One day we will be all right. He, however, lost his chance at life. He will never finish his professional development which was progressing with so much promise. He will never become the man he was born to be. His many great talents will never come to fruition. He will not be able to teach his children how to sail and ski, how to play the guitar, or just simply hang out with each other. He will never again stand next to me on a snowcapped mountaintop and say, ''Isn't this the most beautiful sight you've ever seen?'' He was one terrific person and he had the right to become an old, old man.
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Michael Hillis' right to privacy and AMR American Eagle's treacherousness to hide their sloppy hiring practices, training and supervision, and recordkeeping behind this smoke screen called right to privacy took away my son's right to life. How many times do people like me have to stand here and plead with you? It is too late for my son, too late for the other fourteen people on American Eagle 3379. It is too late for the other 57 people who died under similar circumstances before them. But it is not too late yet for the rest of us, for your sons, your daughters, parents, husbands and wives. You who created and supervise the FAA can make sure they do their job in making testimonies like mine unnecessary in the future. Don't hide behind your politics as usual. Please act now.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kast.
Next is Mrs. Gibson.
Mrs. GIBSON. Congressman Duncan, Members of the committee, especially Mr. Traficant, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Mary Ann Gibson and while I thank the subcommittee for inviting me to appear, I am with Mrs. Kast, as all of us are, it's an invitation we should have never received.
There is an old saying, it's sad to bury one's parents but it's a tragedy to bury one's child. While it is true that some accidents are avoidable, the crash of American Eagle flight 3379, which took the life of my son, was simply an accident waiting to happen. Responsibility of the crash is a shared one. As we all know, Captain Hillis, and we extend our sympathies to his family also, had there been better protection laws he would have been alive too. Unfortunately, he was flying a plane that was in proper flying condition. So the blame does fall on pilot error. And on Flagship Airlines for hiring Captain Hillis without an adequate investigation of his abilities, thereby never learning the secret, and it's a secret, of his incompetence. The Federal Government, by failing to properly regulate airline safety as much as they possibly can, created this atmosphere which allowed Captain Hillis to fly and cause the tragedy which has brought me here today, brought all of us here.
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Only those people who have lost a child to an untimely death can understand the loss that we have suffered. It is simply immeasurable. It makes no difference what that child has done, it's your child and you love them. As Bill's father and I grow older, we will not have our only son with us. Bill's wife and his three children, three small children, Mr. Traficant gave their ages, lost a big part of their foundation of their family. Susan has lost her only sibling.
While I realize that it's not within the power of the subcommittee or Congress to repair any damage—I don't have to tell you that, you know it—that's been done to all of our families, it is within the power to ensure that this does not happen again. I sincerely believe all of you are going to try. I think you're going to do it. While you read about disasters, see them on television or in the newspaper, whatever, you never think it's going to happen to you. But believe me, please remember it can and may happen to you every time you board an airplane in today's world.
Only by making pilot performance and qualification information available will the public have better protection. We have to be assured that substandard pilots will be weeded out. Until then, the safety of any person who boarded a commercial airline is definitely uncertain. As an industry, this is where our anger needs to be distributed; this is where mine is distributed, as an industry which relies on maintaining good will and money, the key in all of this, millions of customers each day, the airlines have a moral obligation to improve them and share information. The airlines have apparently acted very irresponsibly. The Federal Government now has, and realizes, I'm sure, the moral obligation and the legal responsibility to protect the flying public as best they can. While the debate continues regarding the role that the Federal Government should play in their lives, as Mr. Kast said, and their fear of personal disclosure should not enter in, it is clear that the safety of American citizens is being ignored by the airline industry. The Government has no choice but to act.
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If steps are taken now to establish the maintenance and exchange of pilots' records, tax dollars will be saved—again, money—as the Federal need for National Transportation Safety Board investigations such as this one would be greatly reduced, and it would allow the representatives, such as yourselves, to consider the larger problems of our Nation. This is correctable or can be greatly improved. Also, our son's livelihood depended upon flying and getting to places, as all of you must. They are going to lose a very well-paying passenger. Excuse the sarcasm.
I know that this subcommittee must weigh many factors in deciding what is right. When you compare the cost of maintaining and sharing information with the basic morality of protecting the American citizens in a situation where we have no control, there is only one conclusion—the loss of lives, their impact on their families and communities overwhelmingly outweighs the interest of protecting the airlines and a few pilots, and I mean a few pilots, with poor flying records. Bill's death would mean nothing if some good did not come out of this tragedy. The only good I can see is a system by which no one will ever have to appear before a subcommittee such as this today, even though we do appreciate this, and relate the details of a tragedy which should never have been allowed to occur.
On behalf of myself, my husband Howard, the rest of my family, and especially the memory of my son, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with all of you and see our system at work. Thank you very much.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Gibson.
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Next, we will go to Mrs. Gibson-Berson.
Mrs. GIBSON-BERSON. Congressman Duncan, Members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Susan Gibson-Berson. Bill Gibson was my only brother. When he was taken from us, a large part of myself was taken as well. I speak to you today with a heavy heart but I also welcome this opportunity to be a part of what I hope will be a change in the way airlines conduct the business of providing safe transportation for its many passengers.
The question I ask of you today is, whose responsibility is it to ensure that only qualified pilots sit in the cockpit of passenger planes? As an educator of incarcerated juvenile delinquents in Los Angeles, I emphasize individual responsibility with my students to help encourage them to become responsible young adults. In the realm of airline safety, we should not have to ask the question of whose responsibility is it to protect the flying public. The primary responsibility must rest with the airlines. They are in the business of providing safe air transportation.
The airlines and their employees have the expertise and all the information necessary to protect their passengers. However, in the case of American Eagle flight 3379, Flagship and American Eagle did not live up to their obligations. When Bill stepped onto that plane December 13, 1994, I am sure that he had no question about the qualifications of the pilot in the cockpit to transport him safely to Raleigh-Durham. Yet, through the NTSB investigation we have learned that Captain Hillis was a substandard pilot who was graciously allowed to resign from ComAir rather than be terminated. Furthermore, we learned that Flagship never reviewed Captain Hillis' performance record at ComAir prior to his assignment in the cockpit. We also learned that Captain Hillis' peers were afraid to fly with him.
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Why then was Captain Hillis piloting flight 3379? Because the airlines have never been required to maintain or share information regarding the competency of their pilots. This lack of regulation meant that no one was in a position to prevent Captain Hillis from plunging that plane into the ground and killing fifteen persons, including my brother. At best, the airline was negligent and incompetent for allowing Captain Hillis to fly. At worst, it committed corporate manslaughter.
The Federal Government has failed in its responsibility to the public by not enforcing recommendations made in this and three previous crashes where it was determined that an incompetent pilot was responsible. We can only ask, how many more crashes must occur and how many more lives must be lost before something will be done to prevent unnecessary airline tragedies? It is clear that the airlines themselves refuse to act with the safety interest of the flying public in mind. Since they have failed to act responsibly, we must ask Congress to help. In my opinion, what we are asking for here today is not expensive nor burdensome. How can anyone compare the cost of maintaining and sharing records of pilots with the lives of the victims aboard flight 3379 and all the other crashes that have been caused by pilot error? I realize that we cannot live in a risk-free society. People are hurt and killed everyday. But until it happens to a person that you care about, you don't realize that sometimes even a minimal effort can prevent such senseless tragedy.
In this age of technology in which we can sit in our homes and communicate through our computers with people across the world, it is not asking too much for the airlines to maintain performance information on pilots and to have a centralized location where all of this information can be obtained by every airline. If Department of Motor Vehicles can maintain records, I believe so can the airlines. What can anyone be afraid of by providing this type of information? The airlines know their obligation. If a pilot is not performing up to the industry standards, that pilot simply should not be in a position where they can compromise passenger safety. Are the pilots' rights to keep their performance records confidential greater than the rights of the general public who places their trust and their lives in the hands of the airlines? To me, it does not appear to be an even close question.
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This is now the fourth time that the recommendation has been made for a bank of information to be established so that the airlines can weed out dangerous and incompetent pilots. The time has come, ladies and gentlemen, for these recommendations to be turned into reality. It is time for the unnecessary loss of life to cease. I hope this committee will recommend legislation to the full Congress requiring the airlines to provide pilot information to each other as well as to the Government. The airlines have been given every opportunity to do this themselves and they have failed. Now it is our turn to ask the airlines that they must act in our best interest. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Gibson-Berson.
We will go next to Ms. Lauren Anderson.
Ms. LAUREN ANDERSON. Thank you. My name is Lauren Anderson and I am 19 years old. I am one of the only five survivors of flight 3379.
As a result of that crash 1 year ago, my life has changed drastically. December 13, 1994, was a cold, rainy day. I had just finished my last exam. My plans for Christmas vacation were already made. I was to see friends and family that night. I had planned to work the next morning, and planned to have some college friends visit for New Years.
When I arrived at the airport, my boyfriend, Jason, said goodbye to me and jokingly added, ''Don't get in any plane crashes, Lauren.'' Upon takeoff, I fell asleep and was awakened by a sudden drop in the plane. Within seconds, the plane had crashed without a warning or a sign. It all happened so fast. After the crash, I remember being cold and wet and covered in jet fuel. I was alone and scared. I wanted my family and some assurance that this was all a dream.
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The next morning I realized that the nightmare was real when I woke up in the hospital. I immediately had surgery on my left leg, had chest tubes inserted into my punctured lung, and required the use of a respirator to breath. I was strapped to the bed because of my doctor's fears that I would try to roll over or pull on tubes. Within 3 days an extremely complicated surgery was performed on my broken and dislocated back. I remember very little about my first few days in the hospital other than the extreme pain I was in. I remained at Duke Hospital for 2 weeks and went home after Christmas.
I spent the next 5 weeks flat on my back recovering at home and was allowed to return to Elon College for my spring semester. Today I am not the average college student. I am very lucky but I am also very different. I am not the carefree kid I was 1 year ago. I cannot do some of the things that I once did best, like gymnastics and skiing. I was forced to grow up and face situations no one should have to face. Not a day passes without the constant reminder of that cold December night, whether it is due to conversations with peers, airplanes flying overhead, seeing the scars all over my body, or the pain that I'm feeling in my back and leg. Unfortunately, no one can take that away from me. They have tried to relieve the physical pain through rehabilitation and the emotional pain through therapy. Naturally, some days are worse than others, and only I will have to deal with that for the rest of my life.
Since the accident I have learned many upsetting things about the pilot of flight 3379 and the airline industry. After the National Transportation Safety Board's findings that pilot error caused the crash, it became highly publicized that this pilot's prior flight history was poor. However, when American Eagle hired him, they should have checked his background but never did. I was shocked to learn that this was apparently due to some fear of being sued for giving negative reports about pilots. I know that I am lucky to have survived the plane crash, but I am angry because this could have, and should have been prevented. It is time for full disclosure of pilot performance records. Thank you.
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Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. Now this is your mother, is that correct?
Ms. LAUREN ANDERSON. That's right.
Mr. DUNCAN. I am sorry, Mrs. Anderson, I don't have your name.
Mrs. ANDERSON. Marie Anderson.
Mr. DUNCAN. Welcome to our subcommittee. You may go ahead and say anything you would like to say at this time.
Mrs. MARIE ANDERSON. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Congressmen. While Lauren's recollection of flight 3379 is somewhat unclear, the events of last December 13th are etched in our memories forever. The news bulletin of a commuter airline crash at Raleigh-Durham came over the radio as I was driving along to the airport. It wasn't until almost 4 agonizing hours later that we heard that Lauren had miraculously survived. We drove back home and spent a very long night waiting for the first available flight the following morning to be with her.
Our hearts ached when we saw her lying in the Duke trauma ICU and learned the full extent of her injuries. Her courage, determination, and faith in God have brought us through a very painful year. Fifteen other families weren't as fortunate. Fifteen other families are still grieving 1 year later. Haven't we reached the point of saying enough lives have been lost?
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This accident was tragic but what's more tragic is that it happened because people were afraid to take the steps necessary to ensure it wouldn't happen. Once again, the NTSB has recommended full disclosure of pilot performance records. An incompetent pilot should never again be allowed to move from one airline to another without his performance records moving with him. The airlines have a moral and legal obligation to disclose information about bad pilots to one another. If the airlines won't voluntarily do what they should, it's time for Congress to do the right and moral thing. Do it for every parent whose child flies home this year for Christmas. Do it for everyone who puts their trust and their lives in the hands of the airlines every day. You must not let an accident like this one happen again. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much.
Next we'll go to Mr. Jeffrey Josefson.
Mr. JEFFREY JOSEFSON. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, you have my written testimony. I would like to deviate and speak from my heart. I would like to thank you for holding these hearings and for the opportunity to speak.
On December 13, 1994, life for the Josefson family drastically changed upon the crash of American Eagle flight 3379. We lost our mother, Pauline Josefson. This has left a large void in our lives. Our families miss her very much. A short time after the crash, we as a family were gathered for Christmas and discussed many things. We asked, in what way can we make air travel safer? We don't want other families to go through what the families of flight 3379 have gone through.
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From the first reports, we all thought that there was a flame out and that the pilot did not handle this problem properly. We learned at the NTSB hearing on October 24, 1995, that both the plane engines were operating the whole time. The pilot associated the illumination of a left ignition light with an engine failure. In training, when this light came on this meant a flame out. At this point, it is reasonable to believe that the pilot did not fly the plane but tried to find the problem that was not there. So much time was spent doing this that the flight became fatal for fifteen people with five survivors.
It appears to me that training and recordkeeping needs to be updated. As my brother Douglas and I drove home after the NTSB hearing in October, there were some aspects of the hearing that we did not understand. But we discussed ways to have pilot training and performance records kept by the FAA. Seeing that the FAA has records of the pilots, it wouldn't take much to change programs and keep additional pilot performance records. After reading the NTSB report dated November 15, 1995, we thought that the Board may have been riding in the back seat of the car with us. We support and strongly recommend that all the recommendations by the NTSB be put into effect by the FAA and used by the FAA and the airlines.
If the FAA had implemented the three previous recommendations by the NTSB, this tragedy probably would not have occurred. While reading as much information as I can about this subject, I understand that there were seven plane crashes with one hundred and eleven people losing their lives because of poor recordkeeping and the lack of sharing the performance records. This information came from the USA Today report that the Chairman mentioned yesterday, September 1995.
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I heard a statement that the industry will monitor itself. It does not seem to be working. I also heard that it would cost too much to implement and keep these records. Sirs, how much are one hundred and eleven lives worth? How much is my mother's life worth? I don't believe that a computer program and the keeping of these records would cost much to the industry or to the FAA. The policy of sharing and keeping better performance records will not only protect the public but the flight crews as well. I believe that the saving of lives is utmost. I also believe that the privacy issue is a smoke screen and can be worked out to protect the privacy of records. These records can be used to graph pilot performance and spot strengths and weaknesses. It can also show any pattern that there may be in this pilot's performance so that corrections can be made, suggestions to the pilot, anything as far as maybe a reprimand up to dismissal.
I pray that the lives lost on American Eagle flight 3379 will not be in vain but be a memorial to having pilot training and performance records better kept and shared among the industry. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Josefson.
Now we will have testimony from Mr. Wayne Josefson.
Mr. WAYNE JOSEFSON. I would like to thank the Chairman of the subcommittee, Congressman Duncan, and it's members for their interest in airline safety for, holding the present hearings, and for the opportunity given to me to testify before you. I would like to testify in favor of requiring airlines to keep and share pilot performance records.
Yesterday and today we have heard, and will hear panels of expert witnesses. I would like to say that this is a panel of expert witnesses. Not experts as far as airline recordkeeping, not experts as far as pilot training, not experts as far as legislation, not experts as far as all of the other intricacies of airline safety, but experts in the pain, the suffering, the grieving that has resulted from the fact that our system has failed, experts to the fact that the airline industry has not acted responsibility, has not done what it could and should do to maintain the highest standards of safety performance.
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And so I, too, would like to add to what the other witnesses have shared, that even though I'm not a strong proponent of Big Government, of Government intervention, I realize that we're living in a time of budget cutting, but I believe that because the airlines have not taken their responsibility, it is incumbent upon you to take your responsibility to ensure that this doesn't happen again. I believe that you have the power and the wisdom and the capability of bringing in the legislation which is required in order that flight 3379 will not be repeated in the future. You can read my prepared statement and feel some of what we experienced as a family as a result of this tragedy. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Josefson.
Let me just say a couple of things. I certainly, once again, appreciate very much the fact that each of you would come here today. Our subcommittee has held hearings on probably twenty-five different subjects this year, we've had a very active year, and, unfortunately, many of those hearings have been much better attended than this one, and I know Members are in a very busy time. Two or three other Members have been in and out today. But I can tell you after hearing the testimony in all of those hearings, no testimony has moved me quite like your testimonies. As the father of several children myself, I've always heard it said that the absolute worst thing that can happen to anyone is to outlive one of their children, and Mr. and Mrs. Kast and Mrs. Gibson, I can't fully comprehend what you've been through, fortunately, but I certainly have great sympathy for what you've been through. And to Mr. Josefson, a few years ago I went through the death of my own father to whom I was very close. I know that your loss has been tremendous. And Ms. Anderson was much more fortunate but apparently she went through something so horrible it just was blacked out of her mind at least in part. But much of what you've been through has been very difficult. You shouldn't have had to go through it.
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I usually ask many questions. I don't think I'm going to do that at this time because I don't think really that any comments that I could make or any questions that I might have would add much to what you all have already said. I can assure you though that all of us on this subcommittee are going to try as hard as we possibly can to fashion some remedy, whether legislative or otherwise, to try our very best to prevent these types of accidents happening in the future. With that, I am going to turn to the ranking member of the subcommittee, Mr. Lipinski.
Mr. LIPINSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a very personal connection with this because I have a son at Duke University who has flown in and out of that airport on numerous occasions over the course of the last 3 years. So what occurred there is very close to me. I remember when it did occur and I remember my wife and I being enormously personally concerned about it in the event that he may have somehow been involved. But, as I say, I know about that airport, I know about the commuter planes down there, so it brings it all home to me very personally.
There is nothing that anyone can say to you that could in any way compensate you for your loss or ease your grief. I will simply say that, along with Chairman Duncan, I will see to it that this situation is corrected and that this situation can never occur again. You have my word on that and, in talking to the Chairman about it, you have his word on it also. We will move very quickly to accomplish what we are promising you here today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. Lipinski. Mrs. Kelly.
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Mrs. KELLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Although I arrived late, I have read some of the testimony and I was here for Mr. Josefson's statement. I never thought that I would be on this committee at this time. Working as a professional patient advocate, I took courses in handling disasters and worked with victims of disasters. I know the honesty of your stories and I feel for every one of you. I appreciate the fact that we have a Chairman and a ranking minority member who are committed to helping you get to where you think we ought to be with this.
I want to analogize the objections that I have heard to the pilot record sharing. There are people who object to having these pilots' records shared. I would like to analogize it to the medical profession where the fear was that if you said something honest about the way a doctor was performing, you might put that doctor out of business. It seems to me that we have something somewhat similar here. Human nature being what it is, I think it is very, very important that we assure that honesty accompany the pilot's record. So I would hope that anything we do here reflects an intent by Congress to make sure that the records are straightforward and honest as they come and with certain protections, if we have to build them in, so that honesty can be added into the records.
Along that line, Mr. Josefson, just one question for you, sir. Your testimony mentioned that you are a truck driver. I wonder, you must be familiar with the rules that exist for truck drivers. I assume they have performance records built into them, do they not?
Mr. JOSEFSON. Yes, there are records that must be kept, employment records, drug screening, medical records, a driver's performance record which would be coming from the Department of Motor Vehicles. If you change one job to another, these have to be forwarded to your next employer.
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Mrs. KELLY. So they are shared among the trucking companies?
Mr. JOSEFSON. Yes.
Mrs. KELLY. And it seems that with airline pilots we certainly don't have the same situation at this present time. So I'm glad you brought that out, glad you added that.
At this point, I don't have any other questions. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kelly, for your comments and your input. Mr. Traficant.
Mr. TRAFICANT. I want to thank the panel for their testimony. I know it was very difficult for them to come here and to make the statements they made under the pressure they had.
Mr. Chairman, it is unbelievable to me that anyone, absolutely anybody with a personal computer can get on the Internet and get a full transcript of every single episode of the ''Simpsons,'' every single score of an NFL or NBA game, and actually get every single performance statistical record of any player who performed in those games over night, overnight. I don't think it's a leap of faith to think that the airlines cannot tap into existing technology.
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There are several questions that I have. Just briefly, first of Ms. Anderson. Where were you seated on the craft?
Ms. LAUREN ANDERSON. We're still not sure where I was seated. I think that I was in the front of the plane. I think that I was in possibly 3B or 3C, which is right where the plane split. I think that's where I was sitting; I'm not sure.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Did the FAA or the airlines, or a combination of both, at any time after your ability to function do exhaustive investigations of you, where you were seated, and other situations regarding the fact that you were spared?
Ms. LAUREN ANDERSON. No, they did not.
Mr. TRAFICANT. We all know that if any of us here had been convicted of drunk driving in Ohio and 1 year later you got stopped in Pennsylvania or Tennessee, that State Trooper would have instantaneous access to our driving records. That's what so amazing about this, Mr. Chairman, and why something now must be done. So it's evident to me that there's a political problem as well as a problem of oversight here. The Congress of the United States must address the politics that for some reason has allowed this issue to continue.
Just one last question and I'll ask it of my constituent, Mrs. Gibson. And I appreciate your testimony and the burden that you brought down here. Howard, seated behind you, I know he's very pained as reflected in comments you made. Everybody's testimony was great. In your involvement now because of this tragedy that has affected you personally, have the airlines demonstrated what you consider to be a genuine interest in this problem? Have they, in fact, made any statements or representations to you that they are willing to address this, and will address this issue, Mrs. Gibson?
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Ms. GIBSON. Well, yes. Am I allowed to say names here without getting sued under one of these laws that don't protect me?
[Laughter.]
Mr. DUNCAN. You can express any opinion you wish, Ms. Gibson.
Ms. GIBSON. Thank you. Regarding American Eagle flights and our son's death, we, as many, heard it on the news. OK, that's fine. The only contact I've had with anyone other than the Care Team which they sent, and they did an excellent job, American Eagle did, they were just great, the only contact that I feel is directly representing American Eagle and their philosophies, and maybe all airlines, was from Mr. Albert, the insurance adjuster. All he told me was that by law parents are not considered immediate family. That's Mr. Albert's comment to me. Thank you.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Well, Chairman, in closing out, I touched on the issue yesterday that the FAA currently requires airlines to conduct security checks. I don't believe that it would be all that hard, on the basis of all the work they do, to provide these background checks. I think the politics must be resolved, Mr. Chairman. That's not an easy task but I'm sure you're up to that task. I pledge our support to help you in the pursuit of that, you and Mr. Lipinski. I thank those for testifying.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much.
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Before we go to Mr. Menendez, Mr. Kast, you seemed to have a reaction or maybe wanted to make a couple of comments about the response of not only perhaps the airlines, but the FAA and the Government agencies involved. Do you have thing you wish to say about that?
Mr. KAST. Mr. Chairman, I am very concerned that this real life issue, this real life tragedy does not slide off into oblivion again. I know that the FAA is being controlled by Government and you ultimately. You are the ones who control everything on our behalf. You must, you must mandate these people in the FAA. Mr. Chairman, they have all the tools. I am an information technology professional. I put my sharp pencil to what it would cost to keep track of seventy thousand pilots during a 12-month period. It would be less than $100 a pilot, or would be less than $7 million a year. When you relate that to an airline ticket, that would be considerably less than a dollar per ticket. My son Jonathan Kast would have paid that dollar to be here with us today. That's the tragedy. We must do something.
Representative Traficant says the technology is in place. It is more than in place. There is every bit of technology available to track that simple aspect. Don't confuse it. Don't let the airlines make it more complicated than it is. Please, just keep the bare bones records on the likes of Mr. Hillis. If we would have had the relatively unsophisticated information which is in front of us today on Mr. Hillis, no one in his right mind would have allowed this man to fly. We don't need anything really sophisticated, just the facts. Please, I urge you. This is this is Jonathan Kast, a guy who was not only our son but my friend. This young man needed not to die only because American Airlines and American Eagle is a cheap bunch of crooks. I'm sorry. Do something, please.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Kast. Mr. Menendez.
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Mr. MENENDEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief. Even in the face of shocking and tragic news reports like America Eagle's flight 3379 on December 13, 1994, sometimes, too often, we need human faces and exceptional individuals, such as all of you today, to bring tragic circumstances to light and to bring them to the forefront of consideration by people like us who produce policy.
Yesterday's hearings caused some alarm for me before I even heard your compelling testimony today. When we raised questions with the industry of what is wrong with raising standards and codifying what they allege are the highest standards already, we were told that they might be considered as then only complying with minimum standards. I found that to be as I left the hearing, which was on one of the final notes that I could stay for, just completely, completely shocking. I think to say that there is no problem clearly is just a denial of understanding that we can save a life.
The greatest memory we can give each and every one of the members of your families and others in this particular case, even for those who don't believe in big Government, I happen to believe in an activist Government, this is in fact an opportunity where the Government has an appropriate role, should in fact respond. And knowing the Chairman and the ranking member and the members of the subcommittee who have attended these hearings and heard all of the testimony so far, you will find that this time Government will work on your behalf. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Menendez.
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I want to thank each of you for being here with us again today, and thank you for your testimony and your very helpful statements in regard to this very, very important issue. Thank you very much.
Mr. DUNCAN. We will call up the second panel at this time.
This panel will consist of Mr. Dan McKinnon, who is president of North American Airlines and who is a former chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board; Doctor Michael A. Schukert, who is a professor in the aerospace department at Middle Tennessee State University; and Mr. Evan Hendricks, who is the editor and publisher of the Privacy Times here in Washington. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here with us. We will begin your testimony in the order in which the witnesses are listed here. Mr. McKinnon, that means that we will go with you first. You may begin your testimony, sir.
TESTIMONY OF DAN MCKINNON, PRESIDENT, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, NORTH AMERICAN AIRLINES; DR. MICHAEL A. SCHUKERT, PH.D PROFESSOR, MIDDLE TENNESSEE STATE UNIVERSITY; AND EVAN HENDRICKS, EDITOR AND PUBLISHER, PRIVACY TIMES, AND CHAIRMAN, U.S. PRIVACY COUNCIL
Mr. MCKINNON. Mr. Chairman and Members of the subcommittee, it is good to be with you today to discuss ways to improve aviation safety and the importance of gaining access to complete information about a pilot's flying ability of a commercial airliner.
My interest in aviation goes back to the days of being a Navy pilot and it was reinforced during the period I was the last chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board and actually implemented airline deregulation at that time and then sunsetted the CAB. I'm now serving as president of an airline and on the front lines of this particular issue.
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Deregulation is a good thing but it has changed the industry. One big change is that job security for pilots is no longer guaranteed. In the good old days of regulation, a pilot could pretty much depend upon a lifetime of job security at a single airline. As a result, the airline got to know him and his pluses and minuses. But that's not what's happening today because airlines didn't go bankrupt like they do today. Now it is a tough, competitive, dynamic business full of instability and change. Besides, in the old days most airline pilots came from the military. This made it easy to verify information, provided a standard foundation, as well as screening process. That's not the case today. Sharp defense cutbacks have virtually eliminated any backlog of military pilots available to airlines. Today, most airline pilots come from the civilian world with many more diverse flying backgrounds and training experiences.
At the CAB, I had to deal with the original bankruptcies of Braniff and Continental plus other smaller carriers. That's when it became obvious that with the benefits of deregulation came some problems. I've learned first-hand some of the consequences when we started North American Airlines back in 1989. One of our best sources of pilots was the pool of Eastern Airline pilots and Braniff pilots unemployed because their airlines had unexpectedly gone out of business. But there was no way to check the background of those pilots like other employees. Their previous employer's data base had evaporated and there was no one to answer the phones. So how could I be sure the information the individual supplied me was correct?
Now that this industry has more pilots than ever before, changing from one job to another, it is important that an employer has the ability to track a pilot's history and performance to ensure the safe operation of our airliners. The U.S. commercial airlines spend hundreds of millions of dollars to ensure they operate safely. Airline management realizes the competitive importance of the image of operating a safe airline. It seems to me good pilots want to be sure they work with other pilots who are skilled and qualified for the position. After the past performance of the pilot involved in the American Eagle accident, I'm sure the co-pilot would have appreciated a closer screening of the man responsible for his death.
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The Congress spends a lot of time, effort, and money as well to have hearings like this to oversee safe aviation operations. Every single airline conducts thorough background checks on every safety-sensitive employee they hire, including pilots. We check the pilot's education, their credit ratings, their criminal records, their driving records, and they're given frequent physicals. We check with the FAA to see if there are any violations imposed on a pilot by the FAA. Of course, such violations may not tell the entire story since they're given only after lengthy legal proceedings which allows erasure of information except for the most obvious violations. The Government requires us to give them pre-hiring and random drug and alcohol tests. If a pilot flunks or refuses to take one of those tests twice, they are banned from an airline job as a pilot for life.
After all we do, we're blocked from viewing one of the most obvious factors in determining how safe a pilot flies. The fact that a pilot's previous performance record is not available can have devastating results, as the recent American Eagle accident seems to indicate, at least according to the NTSB. So all the money spent to ensure a safe aviation transportation system is negated by the lack of knowledge of one single important area—knowledge to an airline management of the pilot's past experience and performance. Generally, the past predicts the future. Even on the National Archives Building it says ''what is past is prologue.'' On the surface, this seems unbelievable, keeping in mind all other efforts that we go through to guarantee safe flight operations.
It seems to me the appropriate personnel at Part 121 and 135 airlines ought to be free to talk with each other about any nuances or non-officially recorded details about the safety of a pilot's past performance without fear of legal reprisal; in other words, absolute immunity. Most airlines support the legislation that would compel sharing of relevant pilot employment and training records to prospective employers upon their request. However, it is essential that any such Federal requirement give absolute immunity to the employer who turns those records over and to the prospective employer who receives them. This means that lawsuits for defamation, negligence, interference with prospective business relations, and invasion of privacy are barred against companies that comply with the law. Only through such immunity will the legislation achieve its objective of allowing prospective employers to research the experience of pilots and learn helpful, candid information affecting hiring decisions and airline safety.
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If immunity is not absolute, any plaintiff who alleges that the employer acted in bad faith or with recklessness may pursue a claim in court. The mere allegation of bad faith or recklessness, whether grounded or not, triggers the question for a jury to decide. Because such lawsuits are extremely expensive to defend, most employers, and especially small ones like myself, are not willing to share anything more than a confirmation of a former employee's name, job title, and dates of employment. Of course, that doesn't give you very much meaningful information. Without complete protection, the airlines will remain wary of sharing useful information.
Absolute immunity is an appropriate component of a Federal law mandating the disclosure of pilot records. Last week, Senator McCain introduced a sensible bill that provides for open sharing of pilot records that addresses pilot privacy concerns and gives airlines absolute immunity. And yesterday, Congressman Randy ''Duke'' Cunningham introduced the Airline Passenger Safety Act of 1995, H.R. 2758, that is virtually the same except the background check would go back 10 years as opposed to 5 years in Senator McCain's bill. You have here the introduction of legislation by the two most experienced Members of the Congress as pilots and perhaps of the two most famous pilots in the history of the Congress.
In the debate about this legislation, there will undoubtedly be pressure to weaken the absolute immunity provision. We strongly urge lawmakers to resist this pressure and thereby ensure the meaningful exchange of information about a prospective pilot's competence. There are obviously times such data could be critical. As a matter of fact, I would like to include for the record a Forbes Magazine article that talks about this very issue in other industries as well as part of my testimony.
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I would urge immediate action, Mr. Chairman, to ensure the public safety is protected by the enactment of legislation that will allow for the truth about pilot's performance to be exchanged between airlines. Some might still argue the rights of the pilots aren't being fully protected. But, frankly, the Congress should be more concerned about the protection of the rights of the public to a safe trip that such information could help provide.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. McKinnon. Doctor Schukert, we'll go to you next, please.
Dr. SCHUKERT. Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, fellow panelists, Ms. Anderson, Ms. Anderson's mother, and the family members of the deceased passengers aboard American Eagle flight 3379, I thank you all for this opportunity to address the pilot record sharing problem. In view of prevailing time constraints, I'll get right to the question. You have my printed testimony, so I'll abstract it a little bit.
Yes, I believe that airlines should be required to share pilot performance records. I must hasten to add, however, that this, like many of the reports we heard yesterday, is not delivered as an unqualified recommendation. A number of considerations and procedural assurances certainly deserve further attention. I shall speak to these concerns momentarily. With all due respect to those questioning or contesting the NTSB's somewhat complicated yet doable remedial measures, it is my opinion that a continued dilatory stance will only serve to ensure the likelihood of additional disasters such as the crash of American Eagle flight 3379 in North Carolina 1 year ago yesterday. Clearly, doing nothing in the way of pilot pre-employment screening beyond that which is currently being done is not a viable option.
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In analyzing situations such as this in my classes, I frequently draw upon a useful adage attributed to Abraham Lincoln who observed, ''If we could first know where we are and whither we are tending, we could better judge what to do and how to do it.'' So where are we? Well, as you have heard repeatedly, we are in a serious situation where since November 1987 there have been seven airline crashes claiming over one hundred lives which have reportedly been caused in part by cockpit crew members with documented histories of poor performance. As to whither we are tending with regard to the matter of aviation safety compromises accruing to marginal pilot performance? Well, the answer to that question will be determined in large measure by the subcommittee's forthcoming decisions and actions.
Workable solution proposals addressing the broader aspects of the issue in question are contained in the aforementioned NTSB recommendations. As mentioned earlier, however, I believe that a number of peripheral issues, certainly minor compared to the gravity of the situation we're dealing with, nonetheless are deserving of additional scrutiny and deliberation, specifically those regarding FAA tasking and budgeting, program administration and monitoring, information release, information contesting, statute of limitations possibilities which hasn't been discussed yet, and pilot employment market impacts. The first four of these concerns were discussed at some length yesterday. I would be pleased to elaborate on the last two, that is statute of limitations and pilot market impacts, following this report.
If there is a common denominator in this, what I see as a life versus livelihood dialectic, it is probably fear; fear of losing influence or control, fear of losing a hotly contested and ultimately high paying job, and fear of losing one's life. Strong motivators all. In spite of the fact that this problem is bogged down by legalities, administrative details, inequity concerns, it should have been nipped in the bud rather than in the compost pile, as it were. The flying public has a right to expect a solution forthwith.
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The special three-part USA Today series devoted to the unsafe pilot problem was referred to several times during yesterday's hearings. Cited in the September 28, 1995 edition was a recommendation that airline cockpit crew members hold a 4-year degree in order to ''help ensure that pilots have the ability to understand today's sophisticated airplanes.'' If this suggestion were to garner support, a logical curricular option would be a baccalaureate professional pilot degree program. I represent one of over fifty colleges and universities currently offering such a program.
Many of tomorrow's airline captains and first officers will be graduates of collegiate pilot programs. Indeed, some speculate that with the diminution in the number of military trained aviators in the pilot job market, our aviation program offering institutions of higher learning will once again become the wellspring from which future cockpit crew members will be drawn. I say once again as, as many of you are no doubt aware, America's college campuses were once the locus of one of the most ambitious and successful pilot training initiatives this country will probably ever see, and I am referring to the World War II era civilian pilot training program.
Since the relationship of pilots and management is the nexus of the problem in question, it is critical that college faculty, such as myself, who are responsible for preparing persons aspiring to careers as pilots and aviation enterprise managers be conversant with regard to public safety issues and concerns governing or impeding group decisionmaking and conflict resolution processes. My presence here today is prompted in large part by this professional concern and expectation. I am sure that were my counterparts aware of these hearings they would be in the audience, if not on the panel as well.
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I hope that this hearing will focus attention on the life threatening consequences of withholding an employer changing pilot's training records and job performance information. I commend the subcommittee for addressing this issue and for affording me an opportunity to alert Congress, the Nation's aviation alphabet groups, the Department of Transportation, and most certainly the air transportation industry to the fact that the Nation's collegiate aviation community is in a better position than ever before to bring academic attention to bear on civil aviation problems and issues such as that before us in these hearings. Thank you for inviting me to attend. If my comments have given rise to any questions or ideas, I'd be pleased to respond to them at the appropriate time.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Doctor Schukert.
Our final witness this morning is Evan Hendricks.
Mr. HENDRICKS. Thank you to the subcommittee for the opportunity to testify. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, I've also had the fortune of being able to cover many hearings. The panel that preceded us was as effective and as professional as anyone I've ever seen, including those that do it for a living. I'm the father of a 7 1/2 year-old boy and we have another one on the way. I start crying at the mere thought of losing them. So, like you, I can't comprehend it, but I empathize.
I've written about privacy for about 17 years. Privacy is also my baby and privacy is getting a bum wrap at this hearing. This is not about privacy. A good privacy policy not only does not prohibit the sharing of these records, a good privacy policy encourages the sharing of these records in an effective way. So this is not about privacy, it's about shirking responsibility. And it's about taking information management seriously in the information age. We shouldn't be surprised. I have to say, as someone who flies a lot, I think the airlines take very seriously their safety responsibilities. But when things go wrong the culture is to get you, the customer, out of their face and pass you down the line. They've done it to me when they're sending me to make a connection and it's late and I question it. They just say, well, get on the next plane. Then I go to the next airport and they just keep passing you down the line. One time my wife and I were going to fly out of Oregon and into Denver to connect and we were very much delayed. I said, ''Wait a second, if we fly out of Portland today, we're going to miss our connection flight at Denver.'' She says, ''That's right.'' I said, ''But you're not going to give us a hotel there either.'' She says, ''That's right.'' I said, ''So you were going to send me, my wife, and my kid to go be stuck in the Denver airport.'' She said, ''That's right.'' But at least as an aware consumer I avoided it that time. And so this time, when the airlines point the finger at privacy as the reason for them not doing their job, it's sort of satisfying because now they've run into me, because this is a smoke screen and they are really blowing smoke on this.
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There is no privacy law, there is no rule, there is no case law that stops them from sharing this information. In fact, the Congressional Research Service showed us that the only reason that you could sue an employer or especially an airline is if they disclosed information that's defamatory, that damages the pilot. It is very hard to live up to that standard. So in law on the books there is nothing there to prohibit it. I've written about this for 17 years and I've never seen this sort of case myself. So I asked industry, are you aware of any cases? Well, no, we're not aware of any cases, they said we just have the fear that this could happen. And so I strongly oppose granting immunity. I'd like immunity if I write my newsletter, I'd like to be immune for any mistakes I make. So would doctors and lawyers. But I agree with our previous panelists that said we have to have responsibility here. I think that immunity actually will not encourage the goal that we want of sharing accurate information. It can actually continue to encourage sloppiness in the sharing of inaccurate information. And that won't get the job done.
The golden rule of privacy which comes out of principles from 25 years ago is that information collected for one purpose should not be used for other purposes without the knowledge and the consent of the individual. And so privacy has sort of become a hot issue. You might see it in the media every once in a while because that rule is being violated by so many industries and sometimes by the Government. In fact, there is one thing that I would like this subcommittee to look into in the future when it gets the job done on this, is American Airlines announced only a month or 2 ago that they are selling access to their data base on millions of customers for marketing purposes without getting their consent for doing it. Now in the worst case scenario, and this is not that farfetched, you could buy that data base and if there's a crash, you can match their data base against the list of crash victims that are mentioned in the newspaper and then you could use that information to approach those families for solicitation and even manipulation. Even lawyers have rules about not soliciting crash victims within 30 days of a crash. And the fact that American Airlines is selling this information without customer consent violates that principle I talked about, though no law. I think the subcommittee should question them about that and find out if that's an industry-wide practice.
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But the pilot records here are created for the purpose of ensuring safety. So it is entirely consistent that they are shared for the purpose of screening and ensuring pilot safety.
In terms of how are we going to share information, I've tried to lay out in some detail how I think a framework works the best to accomplish our goals. Again, I'm against immunity, and I don't think it works if we just create some sort of a centralized data base because of the disparity and diversity of the kinds of records that we apparently have out there. One of the recommendations it seems that might be useful, and I forgot to list this here, is that perhaps we need to find out what is the state of the recordkeeping system here. As I talk to industry and pilot people, they don't seem to have a lot of confidence in their own record system. So maybe the GAO could audit these systems and give us a clue as to what kind of records are they keeping.
Mr. DUNCAN. Mr. Hendricks, excuse me. Your testimony is fascinating to me and I'm enjoying it, but we have a vote going on right now and we've got less than 6 minutes to get over there. So we're going to have to break at this point. We'll be back in about 5 minutes and we'll let you continue your testimony at that time.
[Recess.]
Mr. DUNCAN. I thought we would be back sooner but we had two votes instead of just one. But we're back now. Mr. Hendricks, you may continue with your testimony.
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Mr. HENDRICKS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I took advantage of that break to talk with some of the family members for the first time which was very enlightening.
I think the question is what is the most effective way to share these records. I'd like to walk through sort of a step-by-step way that's consistent with principles of fair information practices. It's not clear to me, it looks like this is taken care of by contract, but pilots should have complete access to their own training records, they should have rights of corrections, and rights to put in a statement of dispute if there's a difference of opinion. We have to make sure that right is in place and just unquestionable. And pilots then need to exercise that right to regularly monitor their own training records. This makes sense because if criticism of the pilot is inaccurate, they can move to correct it. If there's a criticism in there that might not be fair, they can immediately move to dispute it. And then in those cases where there are disputes, the question becomes do we need some sort of an ombudsman, an arbitrator so you can arbitrate disputes over records. In my experience though in information law and policy, this is just not that big a deal. Once you have this sort of openness in recordkeeping, it really helps protect everyone's privacy because there are no surprises. In the words of Justice Brandeis, ''Sunshine is the best disinfectant.'' Now when a pilot wants to leave an airline and go to another airline, then he should take his record with him. He should submit that as part of the application process. That way, again, no surprises. If there's something in there he's not happy about, he can explain it. The airline that's considering hiring him should get the pilot to sign an authorization form so he authorizes the release of his own personal records from the old airline to the new airline. It seems to me that takes care of any liability concern. This is not much more than common sense. But, again, it is consistent with what we like to see happening with our information practices.
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Then you have a ''trust-but-verify'' situation. I think you can also consider adding in civil fines and criminal penalties for anyone—pilots, airlines, or other personnel—who alter or falsify records. But basically that's a system where you have a great deal of interaction between the person and his/her own records and that's one of the best ways to ensure integrity. That way you don't need to have this huge data base solution. You always have to be wary because when Federal agencies consider a problem, it's we got a problem, we got to create a data base. We're going to create a data base on all people working in America so we can screen for illegal immigration and that sort of thing. I don't think it's going to get the job done. I think if we have this sort of step-by-step process I think that's the most effective way and the most administratively efficient way to do it. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Well, Mr. Hendricks, thank you very much. I must say that I think you've made some potentially very good suggestions to us. I'll have some questions of this panel in a few minutes. But Mr. Menendez had to go last the first time around, so I'm going to go first to Mr. Menendez for any questions that he might have.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to introduce you to some of my other chairmen so that this might be a process they should consider as well.
[Laughter.]
Mr. MENENDEZ. Could I just ask Mr. McKinnon, having heard Mr. Hendricks comments, what do you think?
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Mr. MCKINNON. I think there's several observations. First, I don't know if I would have total reliability if a pilot brought me his records from his previous employer without me talking to the employer.
I do have a tendency to agree with him about whether the FAA should be the repository for the records. The reason being, if an airline sends the records to the FAA, the FAA is going to come out with some kind of standardized form, you're going to fill in the blanks and it's going to say did he passed this, did he fail this, blah, blah. But you're not going to get the same feel as a chief pilot calling another chief pilot of another airline and saying, OK, he busted this checkride, why? Did he land at the wrong airport when there were two airports? Did he go ten miles an hour too fast below 10,000 feet? What was the reason? And you can evaluate the pilot's performance. All the records, if they go to some centralized collection point, I feel might be sanitized in such a way that you don't get a true picture. That's why I think the absolute immunity is so important so the airlines can talk back and forth to each other.
I disagree with him from the lawsuit standpoint. The reason you don't have any case law on this is no airlines are exchanging information because they're scared stiff there will be a lawsuit and they don't want to spend the money having to fight a lawsuit. This business lost in the early part of the 1990's more money than it ever earned in the entire history of the industry.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Two questions. You seem to converge on maybe not having that central location. But if the pilot signed the waiver that Mr. Hendricks suggests and the company is the one who transmits the information to you, doesn't that give you the sense of having integrity in whatever it is the records are, because it is not the individual bringing it with him, it is the company. Second, with reference to the waiver being signed, don't you feel that, in essence, takes care of the liability questions you're concerned about?
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Mr. MCKINNON. In the first place, I'm not a lawyer but my understanding from——
Mr. MENENDEZ. I won't hold that against you.
Mr. MCKINNON. Well, I hope you hold it in my favor.
[Laughter.]
Mr. MCKINNON. But they tell me the mere act of trying to go ahead and get information without some immunity puts you subject to affecting this man's career in a way that he could charge that you've adversely affected him. I hold the viewpoint that I want to know everything I can find out to protect the interest of the passenger and I'm not so worried the other way.
Mr. MENENDEZ. OK. So you're still concerned about the immunity issue for the purposes of lawsuits. But the question of receiving the information directly from the company, does that satisfy you?
Mr. MCKINNON. Yes, but I want my chief pilot to be able to talk to the chief pilot of another airline and discuss it.
Mr. MENENDEZ. You want more than records. You want to be able to have communications between the employers, verbal communications in terms of the performance of the perspective pilot you're going to hire?
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Mr. MCKINNON. Yes, sir. I think that's why you're having this hearing is to hear verbal communication so you can better understand the issues instead of reading it.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Mr. Hendricks, two points. First, just out of interest, your personal background, I mean you've made some very interesting points, are you an attorney by profession?
Mr. HENDRICKS. No, I'm not. My brother is an attorney and I've been an expert witness in some litigation. But I avoided the pain of law school.
[Laughter.]
Mr. MENENDEZ. Let me ask you, Mr. McKinnon's last comment there about the ability to go ahead and have conversations that might bring forth information that isn't necessarily simply written, how do we deal with those issues under the scenario you presented to the committee?
Mr. HENDRICKS. That's kind of a First Amendment issue and I see that come up in the Government where sometimes someone tries to bring a privacy act suit against a Federal employee for talking. In most cases, those cases are dropped because the privacy laws only cover the disclosure of records and people are free to say to each other whatever they please as long as they don't defame somebody. So, again, it kicks back to the defamation standard which is a very hard standard to meet if you're really trying to bring a lawsuit. One purpose of good privacy law is to facilitate the free flow of information for consistent purposes. So, yes, I think you should be able to know everything about someone's training/safety past to screen them for a training/safety job. So I don't see anything in there that would prohibit the kind of conversation that he's referring to.
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Mr. MENENDEZ. Do you think that your fourth consideration here in terms of that anyone altering or falsifying training/safety records to be subject to civil fines and criminal penalties, would that take care of the oral transmissions? I know what you've said about you have to be defamed. But what the companies are saying is I don't even want to be sued. I don't want to spend the money to defend the case and end up winning. It still costs me money. Do you think that provision would, in fact, take care of oral transmissions?
Mr. HENDRICKS. You could have a waiver that would cover that sort of situation. So, yes, you could bring that into it.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Thank you. You've had a very interesting testimony. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Menendez.
Mr. Lipinski?
Mr. LIPINSKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to state for the record that I am not an attorney. I hold all those who aren't in very high regard, even though Congressman Menendez is a personal friend of mine.
Doctor, what portion of airline pilots presently have baccalaureate degrees, do you know?
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Dr. SCHUKERT. The last figures I heard on this, I think it was addressed yesterday if I'm not mistaken, but information I have, obtained through the Future Aviation Professionals of America, it will differ by the category of the carrier, but if we're talking about major or global carriers who, as we heard yesterday, most source their pilots through military separating personnel, we're talking upwards of 90 percent or more.
Mr. LIPINSKI. Does everyone who comes through the military to become a pilot get a baccalaureate degree?
Dr. SCHUKERT. Well, we would have to disaggregate branch of service. If we're talking about the Air Force and the Navy, which I presume would include the Marines, the answer would be, yes. If we're talking about Army personnel, although I have no background in the Army, I understand you can still become a military aviator in the Army without a college degree.
Mr. LIPINSKI. Mr. McKinnon, you were shaking your head there as though you——
Mr. MCKINNON. Well, the Navy has a program, I'm not sure if it's in effect this very day, but most years in the past, called the NAV CAV program which allowed a fellow to do 2 years of college and then go fly in the Navy as a pilot.
Mr. LIPINSKI. Mr. McKinnon, the fact that we are going to have fewer and fewer military pilots coming into commercial aviation, whether it be the large carriers or the commuters, do you think it would be a good idea for us to require 4 year degrees from a university in aeronautics for people in the future?
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Mr. MCKINNON. I don't think requiring it would be the right thing to do, because I think you could shut out some very good individuals. I'm sure not everybody in Congress has got a college degree. I'm not sure that's a fair thing to do.
I think what you do, I interview everybody we hire at the airline, doesn't matter who it is, and what you're really looking for is attitudes and ability to do the job. I would hate to just say you've got to have a degree. And I've seen college degree people that are not capable of doing it. So I'm not sure that's the best criteria on the surface. I also try to explain, incidentally, to these colleges that they need to teach a fellow more than how to fly. They need to understand the economics of the airline industry so they understand why they have a job.
Mr. LIPINSKI. I agree with you that you don't have to have a college degree for everything. I don't happen to have a college degree myself and I wouldn't want anyone stopping me from being a Member of Congress because I don't. But by the same token, I think that there are a number of professions where one does have to have a college degree and sometimes a master's degree and sometimes a doctorate degree. And I think that in regards to flying a commercial airliner, I personally think that as long as we're losing all of the military people that seriously have to look in that direction. Doctor, what do you think of that?
Dr. SCHUKERT. Well, it might come as somewhat of a paradox after me stating in my testimony that a professional pilot degree would be a logical option, but I am not convinced in my own mind that—well, let me state first of all, I believe that the possession of a baccalaureate degree is sort of an index of an ability to reason, to communicate, mental discipline. I think that's very valuable in a pilot. As to whether a pilot should have a specific aeronautical degree such as professional pilot, I might even argue that that might not be a real good idea. I usually address this with a hypothetical question: If a pilot has a degree in professional piloting and should lose his medical certification to fly, in what company business germane way might the company retain that pilot?
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So I very often encourage my students to consider either another aviation related degree, such as aviation management or maintenance, or perhaps go to a traditional discipline. Because a college degree is not necessary to learn to fly. I think a degreed aviator may over the long run be a more competent pilot. But a degree is not required to learn to fly and to be a good pilot.
Mr. LIPINSKI. Mr. McKinnon?
Mr. MCKINNON. Mr. Lipinski, what we're really dealing with today is the ability to communicate between employers about whether an individual has the talent to do a good job, not how we're training him. The assumption is that he's been trained.
Mr. LIPINSKI. I understand that. I'm a little bit off the track in talking about these college degrees for pilots. But I have a concern in the fact that I know that the large commercial carriers right now have a tremendous percentage of pilots who came out of the military who are enormously well trained. When you get to the commuter airlines, you're down to about 30 percent of their pilots being militarily trained. I seriously question the training that other 70 percent have obtained. Now once they move from being a commuter pilot up to being a major carrier pilot, by that time I believe they're well enough trained.
I have grave doubts about the 70 percent who are flying the commuter planes. I don't mean to cast any aspersions on them, but, if they're not trained by the military, I just wonder if they are fully equipped to do the job that they're doing. Now you're going to tell me that they are and I'm going to believe you that they are. But I have a responsibility to the flying public I believe to try to have aviation be as safe as it possibly can. So that's why I'm investigating this possibility. I realize I'm a little bit off the track here.
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My time is up also, so I'll close and get back to the Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Lipinski.
Mr. McKinnon, we've talked about the decrease in the number of pilots coming from the military, of course there's still a large number in our military and a large number of pilots who come from military backgrounds, but is there shortage of applicants for pilot positions with our airlines today? My understanding is that particularly the major airlines have thousands more applicants than they need or can use. So there is a tremendously good pool to choose from; is there not?
Mr. MCKINNON. The pool is changing, Mr. Chairman. It used to be virtually all military. What is happening today is there is just very little military coming into the commercial aviation because there's just not that many. So you're seeing them come up through the commuter route as one real way. Now you're right, there's all the applicants you can imagine. The question is in screening out and getting the very best. Every airline wants the very best. American didn't want to have that accident. They wanted the very best people they could find. But in the screening out process, you just want to be sure you get all the data available to you, all of it.
Mr. DUNCAN. I'm very pro-business but I know that every business would like to be made immune from every type of lawsuit if possible. Some of the State laws that you mentioned grant a limited type of immunity. Apparently, according to Mr. Hendricks, and I've never really studied this, but there really haven't been hardly any of these types of lawsuits. Can your concerns and the concerns of the other airlines be addressed with less than a blanket immunity? Specifically, I would be interested in your comments about Mr. Hendricks' suggestions about some type of waiver being signed by a pilot applicant in advance.
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Mr. MCKINNON. I'm not sure what the waiver really achieves. It says go ahead and check it out, but if they find out there's an exchange of information that may be damaging to his career, justifiable so, then he may instigate a lawsuit. And if you get two or three of those lawsuits, a small operator like us is going to have a heck of a time trying to defend them and allocate the money to it.
This is a very litigious society we're living in. We fired a flight attendant some years ago for testing positive for cocaine and, after 3 years in New York, we lost the case for her unemployment, that she was fired without cause even though she violated the FAA rules. You go through all this procedure and the question is, do you want to expose yourself to that risk? Can you afford to expose yourself to that risk? I don't think any airline feels that they can. But they want to get the information. All we want to do is have the ability to exchange information. These bills that have been introduced I think address that.
Mr. DUNCAN. I can understand that your airline might have hesitancy about saying something negative about somebody, but you wouldn't have those same concerns about saying something positive about a pilot, would you?
Mr. MCKINNON. Of course not.
Mr. DUNCAN. And in that regard, wouldn't it say something to an airline about a pilot if his previous employer said all sorts of very positive things but then with some pilot who has had problems they just give a name, rank, and serial number, for instance?
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Mr. MCKINNON. I guess you could then be accused of not treating everybody equally. He doesn't have to win the lawsuit, he just has to file the lawsuit.
Mr. DUNCAN. Right. Well, I don't know if there's much that we can do to prevent every type of lawsuit or people from ever filing a lawsuit. There are a lot of frivolous lawsuits filed.
Doctor Schukert, I was a lawyer and a judge before I came to Congress. I sometimes tell people about having been a judge. In this day and age, I don't as frequently tell people about having practiced law. But I feel fortunate in having those two degrees. But as I said yesterday, I can kind of see somebody who might be real oriented toward computers and toward technical subjects and who possibly could be a very good pilot but not be good in English and biology, that's the examples I used yesterday, and might not be able to get all the way through just a general degree type process. And then you mentioned that over 90 percent of the pilots have college degrees anyway or something. But I'm wondering, based on your recommendation, have you ever seen a study or any information showing that college graduate pilots have fewer accidents than non-college graduate pilots?
Dr. SCHUKERT. No, Mr. Chairman, I never have. Nothing that I could support. My pretty much gut instinct that I think a degreed pilot over the course of a career would be a safer pilot. I have seen studies suggesting what you are alluding to put out by organizations which have a vested interest in this. But I accepted it from its source and didn't put too much credibility on it.
Mr. DUNCAN. You have a vested interest too though, and I don't mean to criticize you, but it would be good if we passed a law requiring people to enter these programs because the colleges would get more students.
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Dr. SCHUKERT. Well, that would be nice.
Mr. DUNCAN. It's like us requiring somebody to buy something from some company.
Dr. SCHUKERT. Yes. And, please, I hope I haven't come across as advocating that position. Currently in the pilot employment market, as I have studied it, a degree is known as a soft requirement. When the market is glutted and you can ask for water walkers and get them, then you can ask for these things like 20/15 vision, a master's degree if you want, under 30, there's so many out there that they're finding them. So I have to be realistic with my students, particularly my freshmen, and say I don't know what the job market is going to be like when you graduate 4 years hence. Currently, it seems that most employers prefer a bachelor's degree. Now whether you get it in our department or over in English or mathematics is really not too important. I think a college degree will serve you well through your life. It looks like right now in the industry it is becoming a ticket that you need to have the box checked.
Mr. DUNCAN. Mr. Hendricks, to use an old Tennessee expression, it may not be a Tennessee expression, do you think the airlines are making a mountain out of a mole hill? You mentioned that they're shouting lawsuit but there aren't any lawsuits.
Mr. HENDRICKS. Yes. As my great great grandfather went through McMinnville, Tennessee on the way to the Oregon Trail, so I should know a few of those sayings. Yes, not only that, but I think this is a way of diverting attention from some of the real issues. I think it's unfortunate because, as I prepared for this hearing, as I walked through these steps, I talked to the pilots and I talked to the industry, I felt like a parent driving down the road and the kids are misbehaving in the back seat. You want to make them behave, you want to turn around and smack them or something to get them to straighten out. But you have to step in as a parent to get them to behave when really they should just behave themselves. This is all something that should have been able to work out between the pilots and the industry.
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Right now, the track record for voluntary compliance doesn't look good. Why hasn't this already been done? Why hasn't the system been worked out yet? So, yes, to answer your question, I think they are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I think they are diverting attention. And I think they are passing the buck, which is consistent for their culture when things go wrong.
Mr. DUNCAN. Of course, possibly there have not been any lawsuits in this area because the airlines are not sharing these records at this time.
Mr. HENDRICKS. I still believe strongly that if you had authorization for the disclosure of records, even the threat of a lawsuit isn't very real or genuine. On the flip side, it's really come in vogue to bash lawyers and at this point I'm glad that I'm not one. But you have to stand up for them at some point. I mean, no one would deny these families here the right to a lawyer, everyone is glad that they have a lawyer representing their rights in these situations. But I've seen some frivolous suits and I've also seen judges slap some pretty heavy fines on people that bring frivolous and vexatious suits as well. So that's part of the game.
Mr. DUNCAN. I appreciate you saying that and I certainly agree with you. There are some bad lawyers but, and we never hear this, but I can tell you that I think an extremely high percentage of the members of the legal profession are good, honest, hardworking people who try to really do good things for people.
What problems would you see if we tried to put in a requirement that before pilots could ever get a commercial license to fly members of the public that they would sign a waiver allowing all the airlines to share these records and waiving their right to file suit based on the sharing of those records?
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Mr. HENDRICKS. I think that I would prefer more of a case-by-case. That it would be required that if they're applying to that airline they have to authorize the transfer to that airline. There are cases that I've seen in other context where an organization doesn't like an individual and they try and get back at them by disclosing bad records about them. In those cases, I think the individual should retain rights. But those cases are very rare. So I favor the authorization approach. I think it should be case-by-case. I fear that if you just say you sign one waiver that forever covers the rest of your life, in a way that might not even hold up in court because you can't appreciate what you're signing away. And so I think it makes more sense to do it case-by-case but require it on that basis.
Mr. DUNCAN. All right. Thank you very much.
Gentlemen, your testimony has been very helpful and informative and very interesting. I appreciate your being here today. Thank you very much.
Thank you all very much. We're going to hear what the other Members of the subcommittee have to say about this issue at least in meetings and in private conversations and see if we can do something about this. Thank you very much.
[Mr. Costello's prepared statement follows:]
[Insert here.]
Mr. DUNCAN. This hearing is adjourned.
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[Whereupon, at 11:56 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned, to reconvene at the call of the Chair.]
[Insert here.]