Segment 3 Of 3 Previous Hearing Segment(2)
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AIRLINE PASSENGER RIGHTS, H.R. 700, H.R. 780, AND H.R. 908
Thursday, March 18, 1999
House of Representatives, Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Subcommittee on Aviation, Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 11:00 a.m. in room 2167, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. John J. Duncan, Jr. [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Mr. DUNCAN. The meeting will come to order. Welcome, everyone. This is the second day of hearings on airline passenger rights. Last week we heard compelling testimony from witnesses regarding the many difficult experiences that they have had with the various airlines. This week, we are pleased to have several members of Congress, representatives of the Air Transport Association, Northwest Airlines, and the Department of Transportation testifying.
I want first of all to compliment Northwest Airlines on their willingness to testify. The issue we are discussing, treatment of aviation passengers, has become a very emotional issue. We also did issue invitations to, I suppose most of the other airlines. I think the Air Transport Association will represent the remaining airlines.
I do not want to make a long opening statement, since this is a continuation of our hearing from last week. However, there was one point made last week I would like to emphasize. Airline passengers have certain expectations when they purchase a ticket that says they are to fly at a certain time to a certain destination. The passengers expect to arrive at their destination relatively on time.
In the case of an airline delay or flight cancellation, I think the best thing an airline can do is provide as much information to the passengers as possible. The more information a passenger has, the more they can adapt to the situation.
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I think, as I said last week overall, the airlines are doing a good job, most of the time. But we are trying to do something about the more egregious situations. I think everyone, no matter what their job is, should always have the desire to improve and get better. We are trying to help find the ways in which airlines can improve their services to passengers without of course totally re-regulating the airlines. In fact, I think if we do some of these things, we possibly can forestall what might become many calls to drastically re-regulate. I do not think any of us want that.
Also, I know last week when we heard about the situation with Virgin Atlantic who held some people on a plane for seven and a half hours when they were hooked up to the gate, and would not even let them move around, and did that when all they had to do was open up the door to the plane and let them walk around the terminal, that was a pretty ridiculous situation, in my opinion. We want to make sure things like that do not happen in the future.
I want to compliment once again Chairman Shuster for really leading the charge on this issue, and bringing this to the forefront. At this time, I would like to recognize Chairman Shuster for any opening statement he has.
Chairman SHUSTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I had a rather lengthy opening statement last week, so I am not going to repeat that. There is some additional information that we were able to gather between last week and today, which I would like to share with the committee. For example, according to the Department of Transportation, last year there were 3,613 planes delayed out on the tarmac, on the runway, for more than two hours. So the Detroit horror story was not an aberration, but it is a problem that is being experienced.
Of course, last week we also heard some incredible accounts of people being mistreated by the airlines. I again emphasize my dismay at the extent to which people are coming up to me and telling me their horror stories. I can not go through a day without somebody stopping me and telling me of a horror story they have. I am very hopeful that the airlines are not going to have their head in the sand, and are going to appreciate that this is a growing, serious problem.
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In fact, DOT has confirmed to us that in 1998, there were 26 percent more complaints per 100,000 boardings. So that, too, shows this is not simply an anecdotal matter, but a very statistically significant increase in complaints.
I would emphasize that my bill is only a starting point. Congressman Dingell and Congressman DeFazio both have bills. The Administration has a bill, there is at least one bill over in the Senate. So I think we should work, and we should work with the airlines to see to it that we come up with something that everybody can live with and that will indeed help the traveling public.
One point in closing I would like to emphasize, because I was a bit critical of one of the airline executives last week who I believe provided me with misleading information, when he said the 26 percent increase in complaints was only a January to January figure. That of course is not the case, the 26 percent increase is a 12 month figure, an annual figure.
But I did go back and check January to January figures. And the complaints this January were up 243 percent over the same period of last year.
Now, I am sure much of that is related to the very bad weather we had in January. Nevertheless, I would like the record to show that fact.
With that, I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I now turn to our very distinguished ranking member, my good friend, Mr. Lipinski.
Mr. LIPINSKI. Thank you, Chairman Duncan.
I simply want to say that I want to associate myself with the remarks of Chairman Duncan and Chairman Shuster. I look forward to the presentation of the witnesses before us today, and I yield the balance of my time to the ranking member of the full Committee, Mr. Oberstar.
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Mr. OBERSTAR. I thank the gentleman for yielding. I compliment Chairman Shuster on initiating this series of hearings, and Chairman Duncan for his judicious as ever conduct of these hearings.
There is a great deal of anxiety among the traveling public, among our colleagues in the Congress, including concerns among editorial writers, about the condition of service in the Nation's airlines. The Duluth News Tribune just this week in my district, not noted for being critical of industry or business, starts out saying, there was a time when people who traveled by air returned from their trips with tales of their experiences visiting far-off places. No more. Now they often return with tales of woe about their experiences dealing with the airlines.
When the airlines were deregulated 20 years ago, and at this point, it is hard to see the benefits of the move aside from lower fares, itself at times unpredictable from some places. The flying public more often sees a general deterioration of customer service, as only a few airlines survive the sorting out. No wonder service has deteriorated. Certain carriers are virtually free of competition in numerous locales.
Well, when we deregulated the airlines in 1978, the Congress did not intend to end the Government's responsibility to protect consumers against deceptive practices or against inadequate service. It was our intention that the Department of Transportation should continue the authority of the Civil Aeronautics Board to protect consumers.
Those intentions were very clearly spelled out in the committee report of this committee, which I submit for the record, because I think it is very instructive. I would like to read just a couple of lines. The Civil Aeronautics Board has promulgated regulations protecting consumers in such areas as over-booking, denied boarding compensation, limits on liabilities for lost or damaged baggage, smoking, discrimination against handicapped, terms of charter service, and the notice that airlines must give passengers of contractual terms between the passenger and the carrier.
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It goes on to say an important pending proceeding involves consumer protection and protection of airlines against unfair competitive practices, including the Board's rulemaking to establish standards for computer reservation systems.
[The material follows:]
[Insert here.]
Mr. OBERSTAR. Those words were written 21 years ago. We have repeatedly held hearings on one or another aspect of those problems. And the hearings that we held last week and hold today again coalesce, congeal, bring all together in once place, the concerns and problems of the traveling public.
Make no mistake about it, deregulation has saved the traveling public $12 billion a year. But new low fare entrant carriers saved 100 million passengers $6.3 billion in just one year. And the answer to much of the woes that we are hearing today is competition, not necessarily more regulation. As I said at the outset of this set of hearings, the carriers have to clean up their own act. The Department has to be vigilant to assure that there is competition for carriers, because competition is the best way to assure that they clean up their own act.
But believe me, if monopolistic practices, if we in deregulation traded Government control of market entry and pricing for private sector monopolistic control by corporations of market entry and pricing, then the Government must re-enter that arena and make those decisions in the public interest. That may well be the outcome of these hearings.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Oberstar. Full statements of members will be placed in the record. For any brief comments, we will go first to Mr. Sweeney.
Mr. SWEENEY. Thank you, Chairman Duncan. I want to commend you and Chairman Shuster for conducting these hearings. As Chairman Shuster already acknowledged, there are a number of proposals already out there dealing with the issue of airline passenger safety. I think our goal today is to try to find common ground. I believe that Chairman Shuster's passenger bill of rights is a logical first step in that direction.
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For example, one of the provisions, a very reasonable provision, simply requires that the airlines be truthful when explaining delays. I do not think it is too much to expect or ask that honesty be provided as part of customer service.
The one point I would like to emphasize as we begin this process is that correcting these problems is not simply a matter of providing greater choices to passengers. Because as all of us know too well, some customers in certain parts of the country do not have those choices. it is not a matter of being able to go from one airline to the other if you're not happy with the service you're receiving. But I am very optimistic, and I think this is a great starting point.
I want to associate myself with the remarks of my distinguished colleagues before me. I am looking forward to refining H.R. 700 and I am looking forward to getting on with this important work.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. Mrs. Johnson?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate that you're holding hearings on this important piece of legislation. The problems that arose most notably in Detroit and other lesser-known but no less important instances deserve our attention. The American flying public is starting to feel more and more neglected by the airlines when they fly.
I would like to take a moment to talk about a subject that I am very much concerned with, and that's code sharing agreements. The global aviation marketplace has become so competitive that the major U.S. carriers have found it advantageous to enter into alliances with carriers around the globe. I am very worried that as the number of alliances continues to grow, airlines will begin to enter into agreements with airlines lacking the safety standards that we have come to expect in the United States.
The demand for air service to Asia and Africa has become more and more prevalent. Yet the airlines in these regions do not yet operate with adequate safety. I was alarmed when I read the article in the March 7, 1999 Washington Post regarding code sharing agreements. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit the full text of this article into the record.
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It has troubled me for some time that many passengers are not informed when a different carrier will be providing service for part or all of their flight. The article brought to bear a situation that faces many fliers. Passengers should not have to fly blind without knowing the safety records of the airlines they choose.
According to the article, if I were to book a flight from my home airport, Dallas-Fort Worth, into National Airport at Taipei, Taiwan, I would be booked on American Flight 691 to San Francisco, where I would board American Flight 6123 to Taipei. But it is not really American Flight 6123, it is actually China Airlines Flight 3.
China Airlines, even though it is allied with American Airlines, that I trust thoroughly, and even though my ticket would show this as an American Airlines flight, does not have the same safety record as American Airlines. I trust American Airlines to provide safe and effective service. However, according to the article, China Airlines has had three fatal crashes in the last decade, causing 465 deaths.
Further, China Airlines has had an accident rate per 1 million flights of 11.34 through 1996, while American has had a .15 rate. Continental Airlines, who is also in a code sharing agreement with China Airlines, has a .29 accident rate per 1 million flights. I have flown to Taipei on this very flight, and I can tell you that I would not feel comfortable in the second leg of my trip any more, after reading this article, only to see a strange marking on the airliner's tail.
I would begin to wonder about the airline's safety record, especially on an international carrier with which I am not familiar.
Mr. Chairman, I will submit my full text into the record, and I thank you very much. This is an essential hearing, and I appreciate all the witnesses coming.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. Mr. Mica?
Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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I believe the bill before us is a good start. I of course spoke when we had the hearing last week to several issues that unfortunately aren't addressed in this legislation, but I'd like to see addressed. One is the treatment of our flying public with physical disabilities. It is not a part of this legislation, I think it should be a part of this legislation.
We demand even in our public buildings and other access that where the public travels or works, some accommodation for those with disabilities, for the sake of safety, for the sake of compliance with laws that we have, we must address the question of passengers with disabilities and their rights as pertains to their flying.
Another area that I see is in the bill and I am pleased to see is that it prohibits security screeners from separating babies from their parents. The other area that I have great concern about in passengers bill of rights is separating citizens from their civil rights. I think infringement on civil rights by the questioning, by some of the procedures that the airport goes beyond the bounds of the constitution, beyond the bounds of requirement. Most of it was instituted on a false premise relating to the TWA crash, the Flight 800 crash, when in fact that was a maintenance problem.
I am concerned that we do not have provision in this legislation or others that give the passenger a right to know about repetitive maintenance failures and conditions of planes, such as 737s, which I think we'll see a report next week on, where we have had repetitive failures, hundreds of people have died. I've asked for hearings on that matter.
I've also asked for the suspension of any flights, and FAA has that information, that does not have pilots trained in diversionary tactics and recovery tactics on the 737s that are still flying. What concerns me more is now passengers do not have the right to know in this legislation the maintenance and other repetitive mechanical failures problems of the planes that they're flying.
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Other than that, I am supportive of the legislation, Mr. Chairman. I thank you for this beginning and look forward to working with you and the industry and the committee.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. Ms. Tauscher?
Ms. TAUSCHER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I do not have any opening statement, I am looking forward to hearing from the witnesses, and thank you for these hearings. They are illuminating.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. Dr. Ehlers?
Mr. EHLERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I appreciate the opportunity to have another hearing. I've been reading the various bills submitted and also the proposal from the Administration sent by Secretary Slater. I believe we are beginning to see some daylight at the end of the tunnel in terms of effective approaches that could be taken without unnecessarily harming the airlines' performance or the service that they give.
So I look forward to hearing the testimony today. I hope that this testimony, combined with the previous, will give us some clear guidance on the way to go. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. Mr. McGovern?
Mr. MCGOVERN. Mr. Chairman, I just want to commend you for holding these hearings on this important issue. I'd like to ask unanimous consent to submit my statement for the record.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. All full statements will be placed in the record.
Mr. LaHood.
Mr. LAHOOD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sorry I was not here for the hearing last week. I know that these hearings will illustrate and illuminate a number of problems that have occurred for passengers in the flying public. I'd like to just express a reservation that I have that we do not mislead the public into believing that if we pass a bill that we are going to solve the problems of information for the flying public. As Mr. Oberstar said, 20 years ago we deregulated this industry.
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I wonder a little bit if by considering a bill like this or passing a bill like this if we want Congress to get back into the business of regulating a fairly sizeable industry with so many people involved in it, and having the flying public believe that because we passed a bill that there aren't going to be delays and that they are going to get better information. I worry that we could be sending the wrong message here in the sense that because Congress passed a bill, now passengers have some sort of bill of rights that entitles them to something.
I do have a reservation about that.
Almost every weekend I fly home to my district. I fly into Chicago O'Hare. it is the busiest airport in the world. There is either a plane taking off or landing there every three minutes. I am always amazed at how efficient things work there.
But when they have a snowstorm or thunderstorm, things slow down. When the air traffic controllers have to deal with the lousy system that they have out at Aurora, and it breaks down, who's responsible for that? Well, in part, Congress is. I hope we are going to come up with the money eventually to put state of the art equipment at Aurora, so that pilots do not have to fly blindly into O'Hare.
Again, I have reservations. Because it is such a complex system, it involves so many people. I really wonder, I do not want the public to be misled by what we are trying to do here. I think it is great to highlight it and create an awareness. We are not going to pass a bill that's going to correct the ills of information, in my opinion. I just have reservations.
And I am very reluctant, sitting right in front of the Chairman, to make these comments as I am. I consider him a friend and a leader in safety and aviation and the highways and many other things. I consider him a friend and a real leader in transportation.
But I just have some reservations. Congress can not solve all these problems.
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And I would say one other thing. I was so irritated when the American Airline pilots took blue flu or however you want to call it, and I saw passengers sitting all over airports, all over the country, because they didn't like their contract or they were afraid they were going to have an alliance with some other airlines. Should we pass a bill telling American Airline pilots they can not do that?
How many people were stranded in airports over the holiday as a result of that? I think that's a problem, too.
But I just say that I do think we have the best system in the world. I believe it is safe, I believe Congress has been responsible for making it safe, from a lot of the things we have done. I think the airlines have tried to do what they can. But I think we are talking about an enormous task of information here and leading the public to believe that because we pass a bill, everybody's going to be satisfied. I think what we are going to do is create an opportunity for a lot of lawyers and lawsuits for people who believe they have a claim against somebody because they didn't get the right information.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. LaHood. We've had a large number of members show up here, and all members' full statements will be placed in the record. We do need to get on with our witnesses. But if anybody else has some brief remarks that they wish to make at this point, I'll be glad to call on you. Does anybody else wish to make a statement?
Mr. LAMPSON. Mr. Chairman, I hate to ask, but I want to take just a minute, please.
I want to thank you for the great hearings that are taking place. I look forward to working with the committee members. As a founder of the Congressional Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children, I have a special interest of the safety and well-being of children on the ground as well as in the air. Up to 20,000 children age 11 or younger fly alone each day, which averages out to one unaccompanied child per flight.
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In today's world, more and more children are flying alone to visit their grandparents or to see divorced parents during holidays and vacations. That's why I was so pleased to see the issue of unaccompanied children addressed in some of the legislation before us today. Chairman Shuster's passenger bill of rights would direct the Department of Transportation to study and report back to Congress on whether the airlines are providing adequate supervision of unaccompanied minors on their connecting flights.
The Administration's passenger fair treatment initiative would require each airline to publicly disclose their plan and procedure for carrying unaccompanied minors, as well as any applicable charges related to their programs.
Last week we saw some disturbing footage from an investigative news report out of WCCO-TV in Minneapolis. The video showed unsupervised children left unattended by gate attendants. Other children were struggling to keep up with their airline escorts as they tried to make their connecting flights, because the escort walked several yards ahead of them without looking back.
We also heard some very difficult testimony from Tammy Rourke of Newberry, Michigan, whose son was molested while in the care of a major airline's unaccompanied minor program.
Saying all that, I do believe that parents have a role in ensuring the safety of their child when flying alone. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children is in the process of preparing a pamphlet filled with guidelines for both parents and children to follow. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to introduce a copy of these National Center brochures entitled Child Safety for Unaccompanied Minors When Flying, and My Rules for Air Travel Safety into the record for consideration by the committee. I believe that this information will assist the committee as we continue to look at this very important issue. Thank you
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Lampson. That material will be included in the record.
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Mr. HUTCHINSON. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. DUNCAN. Mr. Hutchinson.
Mr. HUTCHINSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think these hearings are very helpful. I believe they have indicated some of the concerns of passengers. But I think you have to put it in perspective. Deregulation has been mentioned, that occurred 20 years ago. What are the benefits from that? This week is spring break. Ordinarily I couldn't do it, but my family got to fly to Washington, reflecting the availability of air travel these days. Two hundred fifty-three million people flew in 1978, and 611 million last year.
And it is going to continue to rise. That's one of the benefits of deregulation, as well as prices declining 37 percent. That is the result of competition. If we can increase competition, then not only will consumers benefit from the decreasing costs, but also in an increase in service. I know this is an extraordinary issue with the airlines, because it is a competitive world out there. Poor service is going to result in declining passenger miles.
I think the big thing we have learned from these hearings is that information needs to flow freely. The airlines need to do a better job of communicating with their customers as to the reasons for any delays. We know that 60 percent of all flight delays are occurring because of the air traffic control system and the problems there, as well as weather.
So I think the leadership that the Chairman, Mr. Shuster, has demonstrated, as well as our chairman of this committee, who has done an outstanding job with the Air 21 bill and moving that forward, will ensure greater access by passengers to airports and an increase funds for adding airport mileage and runways. I think this is the right direction to go. I am delighted with it.
I applaud also the voluntary efforts of the airlines to improve passenger service, even though there are certainly additional steps that need to be taken.
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Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much. Dr. Cooksey?
Mr. COOKSEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'd like to just make a couple of comments and then raise a couple of questions that perhaps our colleagues can address as they are going through their statements. First, has anyone ever looked at the airports, the efficiency of airports, and compared it with the efficiency of the cities within which that airport lies? I share the experiences of the Chicago airport, it is a very efficient airport and they do a great job. I think the city of Chicago runs well again.
I have had a couple of problems in the Detroit airport, how efficient is that airport. We go through Memphis frequently, and that airport is run well. I think the city government is run well. And I can say the same thing about Dallas, so I hope that question will be addressed.
I happen to know that in the Detroit case, they had a total white-out. They had snowdrifts that were so high that engines were blocked, the engines that are mounted under the wings were blocked and prevented the planes from being moved. I am a pilot. The times that I have gotten in trouble or gotten scared flying was when I took a risk in weather. In this particular weather, and last year there was not a single fatality in this episode of weather, there was not even a fracture. I think that's a good testimony.
That said, I do have a lot of confidence in the integrity and professionalism of the people at the FAA, the pilots that fly the planes. Maybe the management needs to become more friendly toward their flying public.
But I would like to get this reassurance from the chairman of this subcommittee and the Chairman of the Transportation Committee: If we go out, because we are supposed to be the source of all wisdom as politicians in Washington, but if we go out and pass some stringent regulation, can you assure me that there will be no comparable legislation proposed, enacted, signed into law, that will say that if a member of Congress fails to return a call to a constituent within 30 minutes, then we will have to personally respond or personally go see that constituent at their home or wherever? Or that if we fail to give a satisfactory response that that constituent can apply for a refund on their income taxes, because those of us who are members of Congress are not performing correctly?
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So if the two chairmen can assure me that no companion legislation of that sort will crop up, I might consider voting for the bill.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Cooksey. I can assure you that we know the airlines do a great job, but we know that no legislation we pass can make the system perfect. And I can assure you, we are not going to re-regulate airlines. But also, we always should be trying to make things better. We are trying to find a way to work with the airlines and work with the various groups and people involved to make our system better and to take care of some of these more egregious situations we are hearing about.
I think it is a good goal and a worthy goal. That's what we are trying to do.
Does anyone else wish to make a comment at this time? If not, I'll introduce the members panel. We are very pleased to have a members panel consisting of the Honorable John D. Dingell of the 16th District of Michigan, the Honorable Michael P. Forbes of the 1st District of New York, the Honorable Louise McIntosh Slaughter from the 28th District of New York. The members are listed in the order in which their willingness to testify came in. We will proceed in that order. we are very pleased to have the senior member in terms of service in this Congress, the Honorable John Dingell, with us. Mr. Dingell, you may begin your statement.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN D. DINGELL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM MICHIGAN
Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I will try and be brief.
Let me begin by saying, I am not here to ask for re-regulation. I am here to ask for competition. As you know, in the labors of Hercules, Hercules was given the job of cleaning out the king's stable. He finally had to divert a river through to clean it out. Obviously, the bills before you are not going to address the problem adequately and there is much more before this committee.
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I want to commend and thank Mr. Shuster, you, Mr. Chairman, and ranking members Oberstar and Lipinski. I want to say how pleased I am to be here with my two colleagues, Mr. Forbes and Ms. Slaughter, to discuss these matters. I reiterate, I am not here to ask for regulation. I am here to ask for competition.
I was in Congress when Jimmy Carter, in what I thought was a very foolish move, and a fellow by the name of Kahn deregulated the airlines. They deregulated monopolies, so that now instead of having regulated monopolies, we have deregulated monopolies. And very frankly, a public-be-damned attitude on the part of the airlines.
Passenger complaints are enormous. They do not know where to go to complain. So I've gotten huge numbers of complaints about airlines service. People stop me on the street, in the supermarket as I walk around my district, as I attend meetings, and say, Dingell, what in the hell are you people going to do about this situation in airports.
Now, airlines are very good at maximizing profits. They have found that's all they have to do under the current situation.
Our good friend Mr. DeFazio is also to be commended. And I would observe that the Administration has also offered a proposal. it is a good one, but they should do rather more. Very frankly, the Chairman's bill and mine are very good, but they require more.
I would observe to you that we are not here simply to improve the roasting process for airline peanuts or to discuss that curious oxymoron, of airline food. We are here to talk about the legitimate concerns of airline passengers. These concerns merit a quick and appropriate response.
In the wake of legislation, the Air Transport Association has told Mr. McCain in the Senate, and the Congressional members who are involved in this, that Congressional intervention is unnecessary to make the airlines responsive to customer service. Go tell that to any congregation of passengers and see if you escape alive.
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The prices of airlines are very simply influenced by one thing, whether or not there's competition. Let me mention in our Detroit situation, one new airline has come in to serve the Baltimore-Washington-Detroit area. They charge $100. So also does Northwest.
However, Northwest flies directly into the airport at National, where it faces no competition. The price there is $400. Same distance, same service, huge difference in price. You will find this all over.
You should note that where you have an airport which has two hubs, as it does in Chicago, you'll find prices are much lower and much more competitive and service is much better. Complaints at DOT are up 25 percent for all airlines last year. I will not advertise further the very unfortunate events in the great snowstorm in Detroit. I have asked for an FAA letter to explain what all that obtained and what caused it. I think it will be very interesting when we get, finally, a definitive statement as to whether it was the airline or the airport and who was at fault in that particular matter.
But it does appear that there is a direct correlation between the numbers of complaints and very frankly, whether there is any competition. If I am to fly from Detroit to Washington, I have one airline I can take, another with great inconvenience. I would observe to you that when I came to Congress, the price of an airline ticket was $69. Today it is $400 to $800 for that same ticket.
For this reason, I introduced H.R. 4577 in the last Congress. It was intended to increase competition, and thereby to improve levels and prices for service, and to assure affordable airfare for passengers.
This year, I introduced H.R. 780, the Passenger Entitlement and Competition Enhancement Act. The legislation has two purposes. First, it would give airline passengers important rights they deserve and have been calling for and I observe, when they close that door on that aircraft, you haven't got any rights at all, except to do what they tell you. You are not informed as to what the charges are, you can be kept sitting on the runway for up to 11 hours, as they were in Detroit. And quite frankly, the service at all points is really very poor.
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A truly successful redress of the public's grievances would take a two-pronged approach. First, create competition. Let the little guys get in to provide the services that are needed. In most airports today, if you want to go to anyplace other than heaven or hell, and you intend to fly there, you've got to go by one dominant carrier. In Michigan, 75 percent of the flights out of Detroit metropolitan are by one single carrier.
Recently, bad weather complications have arisen, and I've spoken about that. Now, I will tell you the contents of the bill, but I would just as soon insert that into the record and save the time of the committee. I would urge that you understand that there are two parts to the bill. First, some modest contributions to competition. We need to go much farther than that. Frankly, the Department of Justice and the Antitrust Division there, as well as DOT, need to get together to do something to stimulate competition, applying the good old-fashioned antitrust laws, which do not work very well in these systems, but which can put a Federal judge in charge of better behavior by these airlines.
Second, it addresses the problems of unfair treatment of passengers, abuse of passengers, including: long delays; unreasonable delays; baggage liability, which is far too low today; bumping; and a passenger rights publication, tell a guy what his rights are. Today he doesn't have any idea what he can do or who he can go to talk to about the fact that he's treated badly by an airline. Those things should be done.
Frankly, when we turned the airlines loose years ago, I warned that we were going to have the situation we have today. Today, passengers deserve basic courtesy, respect, dignity, and truthfulness. They ain't getting it.
The bills before the committee, frankly, any of them are good, and you can make yourself a fine bill out of passing them all or passing different parts of them. The Chairman has provided fine leadership in this matter, and I commend him for it.
These provisions cost the airlines very little. And many of the provisions cost nothing. All the provisions regarding consumer protections are really very inexpensive and are just basic decency that, frankly, we as a Nation owe to our air-riding passengers for functioning under a magnificent monopoly.
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So I would commend you, Mr. Chairman, for the hearing today. I want to thank you and my friends up there, the two ranking members and Chairman Shuster, and all of my colleagues for simply trying to see that we get a little competition and some basic fairness to the airline passengers.
Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much for a very fine statement, Mr. Dingell. We do have many provisions in our FAA reauthorization bill, Air 21, that hopefully if we can get them through will help increase competition in the airline industry.
Mr. Forbes.
TESTIMONY OF HON. MICHAEL P. FORBES, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM NEW YORK
Mr. FORBES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Lipinski and members of the committee. I appreciate sincerely this opportunity to come before you and the committee's bipartisan approach to trying to deal with the ever-present and growing frustrations of the flying public.
The horror stories that you heard last week certainly suggest that there is really a great need to deal with this problem. Again, I would echo the comments of Mr. Dingell, our distinguished friend from Michigan, this is not about re-regulation as much as it is about putting some conscience back into the safest passenger air system in the world and making sure that those who are charged with administering that system are more sensitive to the needs of the public.
Mr. Chairman, the unhappy stories do not just beset the traveling public once they've purchased their tickets and climbed aboard the aircraft. Rather, the passenger nightmares often begin with the simple purchase of a ticket. For this reason, I would hope that the committee would closely review what steps are necessary in addition to ensure that consumers are not being taken advantage of at the ticket counter. Again, this is about competition.
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Over the last four years, the major airlines have been quietly consolidating their control over the ticket distribution systems. Their actions have forced many independent travel agents, those mom and pop businesses on our main streets across America, those travel agents who offer consumers cost effective air travel options, and they are being forced to go out of business. They have been forced because their customers are actually having to move into the airline's direct ticket sales operations, which the airlines say offer better, but the travel agents suggest offer less, choice for the consumer.
Individual airlines currently will not provide information about competitor's services, for example, even if they are offering better value and they meet the consumer's needs. In short, the passengers not only risk mistreatment when taking a plane trip, they risk mistreatment before they even reach the airport.
Trying to find the best fare on an airline is very difficult at best. The seller has all the information and consumers don't. Small business men and women, harried parents and grandparents, are not going to spend hours on the phone or on the internet attempting to do battle with the airlines and the myriad of fares that are out there. By eliminating consumer access to an unbiased source of fare information, from the independent ticket agents, we believe the airlines intend to achieve the effects of additional fare increases, not decreases as they would have you believe. And consumers would lose again.
More importantly, the practices threaten consumers by threatening the small air carrier and ticketing businesses. The typical travel agency is a small business enterprise, as so many of us so well appreciate. Over 50 percent of America's travel agencies are owned by women and minorities. Many times a travel agency is the only ticket distribution system available in a small, regional or new startup airline.
If the airlines succeed in eliminating the travel agencies, the likelihood of survival by small carriers greatly decreases.
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I draw your attention as well to yet another practice by the airlines that is as incredible as it is anticompetitive. The major airlines have a computerized system of obtaining, believe it or not, a travel agency's proprietary customer and sales data.
In other words, one carrier may be able to look at the keystrokes of one particular agent to see if they are bringing up the schedule of a competing carrier over their own schedule. With this knowledge, the major airlines can easily pressure the travel agents to sell only that carrier's product, or they can monitor and then they can cut them off completely from doing business.
The purpose of the legislation that I've introduced, and I compliment Chairman Shuster and all those who, with me support this very important passenger bill of rights. I would also suggest that H.R. 1030, the legislation I have introduced called the Improved Consumer Access to Travel legislation for 1999 would establish an independent commission to focus specifically on the segment of the airline industry that is at the heart of deregulation, the airline ticket distribution system.
We have to create an independent entity that can objectively study the airline ticket distribution system in this country and make sure that getting that system and preserving that system is at the core of that commission's objective, to see what practices are underway, frankly, to eliminate what we think is a very, very good system with the mom and pop travel agencies across this country, the independent travel agencies that unfortunately are being squeezed out of business.
My legislation does not require the DOT to regulate, re-regulate or exercise any statutory authority to investigate the abuses in the ticket distribution system by airlines. Rather, the legislation simply calls for an independent commission that will conduct a six month finite study of the airline ticket distribution system. At the end of that six months, the commission would report back to Congress and the President findings and recommendations to preserve an independent and accessible travel agency system that would allow for competition and a comparison of prices.
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I appreciate, Mr. Chairman, the committee's time, and I thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. Forbes. Those are some good points, good suggestions. We thank you for being with us.
We are going to let you go ahead and go so we can get on to other witnesses following Ms. Slaughter's testimony.
We now have the Honorable Louise Slaughter. I think outside of our committee, no member has been more interested in or involved in these issues of airline competition and airline service than Louise Slaughter. Ms. Slaughter, it is an honor to have you with us today.
TESTIMONY OF HON. LOUISE MCINTOSH SLAUGHTER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM NEW YORK
Ms. SLAUGHTER. Mr. Chairman, it is my honor. I am here to heap lavish praise upon you and the members of this committee for holding this hearing. I have a statement that I'd like to put in the record, because I'd like to comment on some of the things that I heard.
First, I'd like to start with competition. In my city of Rochester, New York, which is a perfectly splendid district that you and I have discussed many times, we have Fortune 500 companies, we export more out of our regional airport than all but nine States in the United States.
But I have between 400,000 and 600,000 persons a year who cannot afford to fly on the prices that we pay in Rochester, New York. They drive to Cleveland, five hours away, to get on a Southwest flight, or to Toronto. Buffalo is doing a little better now, and that's become more attractive for us.
But let's talk about what is competition. In Rochester there are two airlines that would take you round trip from Rochester to Chicago. By most standards, I think that would probably be considered competition. Unfortunately, the price for each one of those airlines is $1,277 round trip. If one of them were to raise the price to $1,278, I am confident the other one would as well.
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Back in the old days when we used to think about such things, that might have been price fixing or collusion, but now I guess we have to call that competition.
We saw in Northeast Airlines, when they had their strike, that whole parts of the United States were left without any service at all. If the intent of deregulation was to make sure that there was more airline service available to more people, at a cheaper rate, then I think we would have to judge it a failure. Because what it has done, Mr. Chairman, it has chosen which regions are economic winners and the economic losers.
I was in Tampa Airport recently, and I was absolutely stunned. I think every airline in the United States flies into Tampa. I thought I had gone to heaven. There must have been 10 or 11 low cost airlines going into Tampa. I would settle for one. I couldn't believe their good fortune down there.
I envy people who go in and out of Chicago Airport efficiently and wonderfully. Let me tell you what it is like sometimes in Rochester. Mostly I fly U.S. Air. And let me say at the outset, their safety record is extraordinary, I love their pilots, they really know what they're doing. But we all get to the airport, for let's say, a 4:00 o'clock flight, we arrive early, we check in, they load the luggage. And we sit around the airport or sometimes even they put us on the plane.
Then they tell us that there's not a crew to fly, and we have to wait a while until they can bring somebody in from Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, or sometimes it is a mechanical difficulty, and they're going to bring a mechanic in from somewhere. If we are sitting in the airport a couple of hours, people start to peel off and go home, and say, I'll come back and go another day. Sometimes getting their luggage, sometimes coming back to get it hours later.
You may believe, Mr. Chairman, that they would jump all over me like bugs on a blanket about what in the world are we going to do about these airlines. We have a saying in Rochester, time to spare, take U.S. Air.
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[Laughter.]
Ms. SLAUGHTER. Now, I am looking forward to the National Science Foundation's report, because I think it will give us a true and accurate assessment of what deregulation has meant. But I can tell you that the northern tier of cities in the State of New York, starting with Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany, are dying a slow death and a lot of it has to do with the fact that we cannot move our people and our goods to market.
I have one industry that exports all over the world that is getting limousine service from Toronto to Rochester to take people over to get them onto an airline in Toronto. I do not understand this, Mr. Chairman. Any airline worth its salt would want to come in and fly those people out at a reasonable rate and make a lot of money.
The same thing with the hub and the spoke idea. This summer, this past summer, I was stuck here once for three solid days. Sitting at the door, finally on the third day, when the airline plane flew in, discharged its passengers, we were all ready to get on, we were a pretty weary crowd. There wasn't a hotel in town and nobody could rent a car. So we were here.
We got ready, all standing up, eager to go home. They told us they couldn't fly us out because they didn't have a crew.
It has gotten to be a contest. Not only do we feel we pay an arm and a leg, but we are not treated as though we really matter. I had, the President of Northwest Airlines was in my district. Basically he said, you're lucky you've got anything. They also talk about 70 percent of our travelers are well to do business people. That's not really so. A lot of people who travel at the last minute in my district are grandmothers with an illness, a new grandbaby, somebody who has to get somewhere, a college student who can not afford to come home.
But with the arrogance of the Big Six airlines, it is really gotten to the point where I think if something happens here, it will be because they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
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I want airlines to prosper, it is a capitalistic society. I want them to do well. But what they have done in destroying the startup airlines and making it impossible for them to survive, has really damaged the economy in this country. I believe, Mr. Chairman, with the actions that you've taken already on lifting slots and other things you were doing, if we can make it profitable and a good investment, people will want to invest in the low-cost startup airlines. As it is now, they know their life expectancy is so short, that only the richest people on Earth can really make that investment.
But please, as you hold these hearings, think about those of us out in the country, if you have lots of airports and airlines around you, good. But one of the things we really need to look at, too, is can we go into the 21st century with the fact that we've only built one airport since 1972 from the ground up, Stapleton? Should we be looking at a rational transportation policy and moving more people more efficiently and quickly? And I think safety certainly is the first thing, Mr. Chairman.
I hope I haven't gotten myself too wrought up here. But my community depends on what happens in this Congress to level the playing field so the airlines can fly in and out and take some of the best people on Earth to their destinations.
Thank you very much.
Mr. DUNCAN. Well, thank you very much, Ms. Slaughter, for your interest in this issue and for being with us today. You may be excused or remain, whichever you wish.
We'll call up the first panel at this time. We are very pleased to have on the first panel Mr. Andrew H. Card, Jr., who is a Fellow for Public Policy at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce; Mr. Robert P. Warren, who is Senior Vice President and General Counsel and Secretary for the Air Transport Association; Mr. Richard B. Hirst, who is Senior Vice President for Corporate Affairs for Northwest Airlines; Captain Joseph E. Gilroy, who is with Northwest Airlines; and finally, a man who's been here with us many times over the years, Mr. Edward J. Driscoll, who is President and Chief Executive of the National Air Carrier Association.
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We are very appreciative to all of you for taking time out of what we know are very busy schedules to be here with us today. We do proceed in these hearings in the order in which the witnesses are listed on the hearing notice, and that means that Mr. Card, we will go first with you and then with Mr. Warren.
TESTIMONY OF ANDREW H. CARD, JR., FELLOW FOR PUBLIC POLICY, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE; ROBERT P. WARREN, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, GENERAL COUNSEL, AND SECRETARY, AIR TRANSPORT ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA; RICHARD B. HIRST, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT FOR CORPORATE AFFAIRS, NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.; CAPTAIN JOSEPH E. GILROY, NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.; AND EDWARD J. DRISCOLL, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE, NATIONAL AIR CARRIER ASSOCIATION
Mr. CARD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And Chairman Shuster is not here, but I would offer him my respect as well. When I was Secretary of Transportation, he was a wonderful counselor. And to Congressman Sweeney, a long-time friend, it is the first time I've appeared before you on the subcommittee. it is good to see you. I am sorry that my Massachusetts colleague is not here, he has challenges at Worcester Airport, I'd love to work with him to help solve them.
My name is Andrew Card. I am a Fellow for Public Policy at the United States Chamber of Commerce, the world's largest business federation, representing more than 3 million businesses and organizations of every size, sector and region. I've had the pleasure of working with you, Mr. Chairman, and other members of your committee in issues affecting transportation over the years. I appreciate the opportunity to join you today.
I salute the historic role that you have had and continue to play in modernizing and improving our Nation's transportation system, to protect lives and promote economic growth throughout the region.
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I am here today to share the concerns of businesses who rely on a safe, efficient and sound transportation system, as well as offer some perspective from my view as a former Secretary of Transportation. Efforts to expand Government involvement in the marketplace are of enormous concern to business. It is our view that airline passenger rights legislation would be unnecessary intervention in the marketplace that would likely increase costs for businesses and most importantly, consumers. It might stifle innovation and it could raise safety issues.
For example, imposing financial penalties on airline operations and decisions about the time passengers await to take off suggests that the reasons for these delays are almost always arbitrary. In fact, in the vast majority, the number of times, there are very good reasons for delaying flights, ranging from inclement weather to inadequacy of the system. I expect everyone would rather have airlines exercise delay in order to be safe rather than sorry.
The question that we really have to ask is, what is the appropriate role for Congress to play in addressing some of these consumer concerns, and what is the role that the Department of Transportation should play in addressing some of these concerns, and quite frankly, what is the role that some of the corporate airlines should play in addressing some of these concerns.
I am not here representing individual companies. In fact, Northwest Airlines is not even a member of the United States Chamber of Commerce. I am here representing the interests of the business community. Micromanagement from Congress has frequently resulted in unintended consequences. DOT on the other hand has plenty of authority to address the concerns that are out in the public marketplace today through current law.
I experienced that responsibility first-hand. It is probably more productive for Government resources to be used to improve our aviation infrastructure rather than try to micromanage solutions to what frequently are anecdotal evidences of corporate challenges that must be addressed by each airline.
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Take for example, Title 49 of the U.S. Code. When I was at the Department of Transportation, it was Section 411. With the recodification, it is now Section 41712. The Secretary of Transportation has broad latitude to address many of the concerns that have been raised in the public domain today. That is through the provisions that address unfair and deceptive practices within the system.
Businesses use the airlines. I suspect that the greatest profit centers for the airlines come from business travelers. However, that doesn't mean that Congress has to micromanage the business relationship with the airline and the consumer's relationship with the airline carrier. It is in the best interests of every single business to provide the highest quality of products and service to its customers that are within its control.
The vast majority of the airline service problems result from inadequate aviation infrastructure, and most importantly, an outdated air traffic control system. Other improvements to the system need to be made. Within the next 10 years, 50 percent of airport runways will require rehabilitation, including 75 percent of the runways at large and medium hubs.
Today the capacity of our infrastructure to safely handle flights and passengers is stretched almost to the limit. Sixty-five percent of all airline delays and cancellations are the result of an overworked and outdated air traffic control system. Your legislation hopes to address that. We favor taking the airline trust fund off-budget and distributing those resources to address the infrastructure need.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to answering your questions.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Card.
Mr. Warren?
Mr. WARREN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. It is indeed an honor and a privilege to appear before you today to present the views of the Air Transport Association concerning the airline passenger bill of rights, H.R. 700.
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Last year, the U.S. airline industry safely carried over 611 million passengers. This incredible aviation safety record is due in large part to the professionalism, diligence and hard working efforts of the men and women in the public and private sectors that made this achievement possible.
In addressing H.R. 700, the airline industry recognizes that it often generates substantial media attention, and that currently, passenger service issues are under strict scrutiny. We appreciate that the traveling public suffers varying degrees of frustration from time to time, but airlines must and do place safety as their first and overriding priority.
But I want to be clear. We want as well to provide the highest quality of service for our passengers.
Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to announce that the ATA member carriers are reaffirming their commitment to customer service in recognition of the marketplace reality that customer service is our responsibility. This reaffirmation incorporates many of the constructive ideas that you and other members have proposed.
Let me outline the following steps that airlines are taking to reaffirm their commitment to customer service. First, airlines will provide timely and accurate information concerning flight delays and cancellations to the extent that such information is reasonably available. Second, airlines reaffirm that passengers should expect to be accommodated on flights for which they have a confirmed reservation, a valid ticket, and have adhered to the airline policies.
Third, airlines will quote passengers the lowest fare available for which they qualify. Fourth, airlines that transport unaccompanied minors will have the appropriate supervision available. Fifth, airlines are committed to providing passengers with information on the privileges and redemption requirements of carriers' frequent flier programs. And finally, sixth, airlines reaffirm their commitment to ensuring that passengers receive their luggage in a timely manner, and that they provide their customers with prompt information concerning lost or misrouted baggage.
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In sum, we are committed to ensuring that the lifeline of our industry, our customers, are satisfied to the best of our abilities.
Can we improve? Yes, we can, and we are trying to improve more and more every day. Nineteen ninety-eight was a year in which we all take a great deal of pride. Thousands of mechanics, dispatchers, pilots, flight attendants, bag handlers, fuel suppliers, air traffic controllers and others got to work often in horrible weather and did outstanding jobs. Hundreds of millions of passengers and their families relied upon these working Americans to do their jobs. Their diligence and professionalism made last year not only a record year for the number of passengers enplaned, but also made it the safest year in the history of aviation.
Of the 611 million passengers carried last year, the top 10 major airlines carried approximately 540 million passengers with 5,808 consumer complaints registered with DOT, a rate of 1 per 100,000 passengers flown, a remarkably good record by any measure, and one to keep in perspective as you consider H.R. 700.
I would also like to take issue with the presumption in H.R. 700 that airlines engage in so-called economic cancellations. The industry does not cancel flights based upon some calculus that a particular flight on a particular day, on a particular segment, won't turn a profit. Of course, there are mechanical and other emergency circumstances that cause delays or cancellations. But it bears mentioning that 65 percent of delays are the primary cause of the escalating events that lead to complaints, and that they stem from ATC systems, severe weather, limitations of airport facilities, machines, people or other circumstances.
Despite those factors, every day we are under enormous market pressure to eliminate every delay, every inconvenience and every instance of poor service or an adequate disclosure of information. As my written statement notes, we are concerned about the unintended consequences that may result from the provisions in H.R. 700 that may outweigh any potential benefits.
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For example, the single flight number provision contained in H.R. 700, the right to change aircraft in international through-flights is a long standing right that the U.S. Government has secured to allow U.S. carriers to fully utilize their international route rights. It is a right that is specifically granted in the 1977 Bermuda II bilateral agreement with the United Kingdom. It also is a right contained in all of our open skies bilaterals.
Using the aircraft most suited to a particular segment is vital to the ability of U.S. carriers to compete internationally. This prohibition would reverse decades of settled international law and aviation policy, and would alter the balance of benefits under our international agreements.
Mr. Chairman, we at ATA are committed to our passengers, our members are committed to our passengers, and we are committed to working with this committee on these very important issues. Thank you.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Warren.
Mr. Hirst?
Mr. HIRST. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I must say, I am very, very grateful for the opportunity to appear here, and to respond to some of the things that I've heard said over the last couple of weeks, and this morning, many of which are not true and many of which, if partially true, are largely inaccurate.
I join the remarks of Secretary Card and Mr. Warren and hope the committee will take them very seriously. I am not here to say that the airline industry or Northwest Airlines in particular does everything perfectly. We don't. We believe we operate in a very competitive world, and we believe we are, as we are, in the customer service business. And we do everything we can within our control to operate efficiently, fairly and comfortably.
But there are some things we can do a lot better. I do not think we do a particularly good job of keeping our passengers informed consistently when there are delays and when there are cancellations. We need to do a better job of that.
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And I think consistently, we do not recover well from problems. Recovery is something that we are focusing a lot of time and attention on. In fact, you heard a lot last week about the storm in Detroit. We've spent a lot of time analyzing that and trying to figure out how we should have responded to that, so that if it happens again, if something like that happens again, we will perform better.
I would like to say, and then go on to dealing with problems of unaccompanied minors and the Detroit storm, that we aren't monopolies. We do not earn monopoly profits. If we did, Wall Street hasn't heard about it. Our stock, Northwest sells right now for about eight times earnings. That's typical of the major airline stocks.
The best year we ever had at Northwest Airlines, we earned about 5 percent in terms of net profit. That's not a monopoly profit. Airline pricing is complex. It is complex because we have very high fixed costs, very low variable costs, and you end up with a wide range of fares necessary to cover all your costs.
I'll defend our competitive record with anybody, Mr. Chairman. In the time I have, though, I'd like to turn to Detroit, the unaccompanied minor problem, and I'd like to refer the members to my written testimony, which addresses a lot of the specifics in the bill. And I'd be glad, obviously, to answer any questions about them.
With respect to unaccompanied minors, I think it is been noted, this is a national problem. Northwest carries about 120,000 unaccompanied minors a year, that is, children between the ages of 5 and 12, and another 50,000 between the ages of 12 and 17. In order to do that initially, we assigned responsibilities to our customer service agents. But when problems developed doing that, because they had split responsibilities, and I think you may have seen some of those in your video tape last week, we moved to a different system of using customer service agents whose primary responsibility is shepherding these kids from one flight to another, and if they get caught overnight, staying with them at a hotel outside their hotel room, and staying up with them.
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We believe it is a very successful program. It is evolving, we look at it constantly, we realize we've got a serious responsibility for these kids. We do, I think, do a very, very good job.
With me today is Susan Baumeister, who is sitting back here, who's a customer service agent and quality service agent in Detroit, who is one of the people who is responsible for maintaining the program. If anybody is interested, she's here to answer any questions about it. Talking to her, to me, is an inspiration. It really tells you something about the dedication of our employees.
She, during the storm in Detroit, when she was off duty, took responsibility for two children who were on a diverted flight that she was on, stayed with them for 90 hours without sleep. When she got rerouted back to Detroit, she spent time again, without sleep, helping to deal with the 200 children who were stranded there. And I think she did a great job, I would encourage you to talk to her. I think she is representative of this program.
I would say with respect to the incident that you heard about last week, there are some facts I would like to add. We do not believe that the incident occurred as it was described. The facts were hotly disputed by the older boy, the 15 year old boy who was in the room with the 6 year old. And they were investigated by the Bloomington, Minnesota, police, who filed no charges, came to no conclusion that any wrongdoing had occurred.
There was a suggestion that other, similar incidents have occurred at Northwest. No other similar incidents have been alleged. I have included in my testimony a letter from an attorney, the attorney representing us in the litigation that resulted, describing the discovery and attesting to that fact.
We did, as is our policy, obtain the prior consent of both children's parents before putting them together in a hotel room where the younger boy had been afraid to stay alone. We will not do that again, though, on the basis of these allegations, except in very unusual situations such as the Detroit storm, which I would like to turn to for a minute.
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There are basically three points, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make, and I hope I do not exceed my time too much here. One, January 2nd and January 3rd, this was an unprecedented storm in Detroit. It was the worst storm in 25 years. On Saturday, in the middle of the afternoon, two inches of snow fell in an hour. The airport closed.
When it closed, it trapped 68 aircraft, Northwest Airlines aircraft, on the ground overnight. Normally we only have about 35 that overnight. Many of these aircraft had to be parked in the alleys between the concourses, the Detroit Airport looks somewhat like the palm of your hand. So we woke up on Sunday morning with aircraft parked in the alleys along with ground equipment.
The snow ended about 6:00 o'clock Sunday morning. It appeared that the weather was improving. Our systems operation center in Minneapolis, which controls the operations of the airline, made the judgement based on prior experience at Detroit and at Minneapolis, that by noon, the airport should be open and enough gates should be freed to handle a limited schedule.
So they began scheduling flights into Detroit starting at noon, although the number of flights that came in turned out to be about a third the number of those that were normally scheduled to arrive.
But the weather worsened, and the conditions were much more severe than people had anticipated and understood when that decision was made. If we could have one decision back, we would want that one back. With hindsight, we shouldn't have let any planes come into Detroit until we were certain that all those gates were free. At the time, it seemed like a reasonable judgement. About 39 aircraft came into Detroit on that Sunday.
What they found was that snow removal had not proceeded according to plan, there had been enormous difficulties getting aircraft out of the alleyways between the two gates. So gates couldn't be freed up. I think there were eight aircraft that it turned out had tires that were frozen to the ground. There had been blowing snow, because that afternoon, the wind picked up, temperatures fell. Initially, the snow had been wet. It blew into the engines of aircraft and then froze.
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Some of our people are here who were there. Larry Scott, for example, who is in the red shirt back here, was working on the ground. He went a couple of days without sleep working through that storm. He had never seen, told me yesterday he had never seen conditions like that. He had never seen a situation where they had to inject propylene glycol into the engines of aircraft to free them up.
Greg Cook, who is sitting next to him, was also there. Greg was also up for a couple of days without sleep in the tower, trying to manage the de-icing operation, which had enormous difficulties through whiteout conditions.
The net effect was that as these 39 planes were on the ground, there weren't gates to handle them. As gates were freed up, the planes were brought in. And I must say, Mr. Chairman, when I first heard about this, and heard that some of these planes sat on the ground for seven hours, I was as outraged as anybody who I've heard react to this. My reaction was, come on, there must have been some way to get those people off planes. You do not leave people on planes for seven hours.
But I talked to the people who were involved. I talked to Harry Butler, who was in the tower, who was in charge of making those judgments. I've talked to Greg and to Larry. I've talked to many people who were involved.
They all say that the conditions were extraordinary, and that had they used hard stands or chutes to disembark people, there would have been injuries. They made a judgment based on safety that the planes should wait until gates opened up for them. The hard stands, if they had been able to get them to the aircraft, many of which were a couple of miles from the terminal, were metal, and they would have been very, very dangerous for people to use. They either would have been iced or covered with propylene glycol.
Chutes, if you had pulled the chutes, as I heard somebody suggest last week, the NTSB estimates than when emergency chutes are used to evacuate aircraft, about 7 percent of the people who use them are injured. A decision was made not to do that. Remember, the wind chill factor was 30 below zero that afternoon. And as to the use of other airlines' gates, we tried. We called every other airline. No other airline had any space available. There was no issue about expense or saving money by not using a vacant gate. There were no vacant gates. Other airlines called us.
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In fact, within the industry there is a practice to accommodate each other in situations like that. So we have done everything we can to make sure this doesn't happen again, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. I apologize to you, but I've had a couple of members ask me to be fair and proceed with other witnesses.
Mr. HIRST. I apologize, there's an awful lot of stuff from last week.
Mr. DUNCAN. Well, thank you very much. You will be able to make additional comments in response to questions.
Captain Gilroy?
Captain GILROY. Chairman Duncan, Ranking Members Lipinski and Oberstar, and other members of this distinguished subcommittee, I thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you on behalf of Northwest Airlines about the now infamous Detroit New Year's weekend blizzard.
My name is Joseph Gilroy, I am a captain for Northwest Airlines. I fly the A-320 aircraft, and I've been employed by them as a pilot for 14 years.
As a pilot riding in the cockpit jump seat of one of the aircraft impacted by this historic storm, I had a unique ringside seat to the event. Not only did I experience the same frustration our customers suffered, I was witness to and participated in extraordinary efforts of literally a cast of thousands that included Wayne County Airport personnel, air traffic controllers, airport police, paramedics and many, many other Northwest Airlines employees who worked tirelessly to unsnarl the resulting chaos caused by the storm.
At Northwest, our number one guiding principle is never compromise safety. Despite the unfortunate circumstances of the January 2nd and 3rd storm, I can say with complete confidence that the employees of Northwest Airlines adhered with unyielding determination to that principle.
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At the outset, let me emphasize that I have complete confidence in Northwest's systems operation control, or SOC, in Minneapolis. These employees are charged with making operational decisions about the movement of Northwest aircraft. I, as well as all Northwest flight crews, rely on the many decisions these people make every time we fly. On more than one occasion in my career, good planning by SOC has prevented a bad situation before it could develop.
Our operations center and flight dispatchers dispatched aircraft to Detroit only after ''study of all the information available tonight.'' Only now, with perfect 20-20 hindsight can it be said that the greatly reduced number of flights allowed to land at Detroit was simply too much for the snowbound airport to handle.
From the moment we landed on Sunday, I was struck by the extreme nature of the snow conditions. Not in 17 years of airline flying in the Great Lakes region had I seen weather conditions and snow conditions that severe. Near gale force winds blew snow onto ramps and taxiways that had been cleaned by plows only moments before, and subzero wind chills threatened to freeze exposed skin.
The extreme frustration of our crews was evident on the radio as pilots and Northwest ramp tower personnel discussed all available options to deplane aircraft. Deplaning at a remote location via exposed air stairs was determined to be unmanageable and far too risky to passengers in conditions so severe. Shuttling aircraft into and out of end gates was considered but not pursued, because when tried the night before, it took approximately 60 minutes to unload each of the 30 waiting aircraft.
While I am extremely sympathetic to the hardship our passengers experienced, I continue to believe that we correctly chose to stick with our zero injury option of waiting for gates to become available. Even as bad as conditions became, we were at all times able to respond effectively to the medical needs of our passengers. In fact, on my flight, a passenger became ill, and after examination by a physician on board, it was determined that he should be transported to a hospital.
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I am happy to say that due to the quick actions and decisive actions of many Northwest employees, the gentleman was safely removed when the last remaining gate at the airport was made available to us. I should add that had no gate been available, other more drastic options were discussed and available should the situation have become more critical.
Mr. Chairman, as an airline pilot, I take great pride in my profession and my airline. I know that my fellow airline employees approach their jobs with the same sort of dedication, professionalism and desire to provide at all times the type of service our customers deserve and have come to expect.
In dramatic fashion, the events of January 2nd and 3rd show that sometimes, conditions and events beyond our ability to predict frustrate our ability to provide our passengers the level of service they deserve. Likewise, our ability to respond to changing conditions in a dynamic and challenging environment are likewise influenced largely by the quality and the scope of the outside support we receive.
Consequently, it is my opinion that this legislation cannot achieve this Congress' and the industry's goal of improving customer service without addressing the need to improve, update and modernize the surrounding infrastructure.
Mr. Chairman, that concludes my remarks related to the New Year's blizzard in Detroit. I look forward to answering any questions you or the members may have.
If you believe it would be helpful to the subcommittee, I would be glad to share my first-hand experiences with you about other reasons we frequently experience significant delays. Let me assure you, delays are as frustrating to us in the cockpit as they are to our customers.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Captain Gilroy.
Mr. Driscoll?
Mr. DRISCOLL. Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, NACA and its carriers appreciate the opportunity to appear in connection with H.R. 700. As you know, NACA carriers are the small, national carriers which provide both scheduled and charter service, passengers and cargo domestically and internationally. In addition, NACA carriers support DOD and the CRAF program.
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Domestically, internationally, we are about 50-50 in our operations. As far as charter and schedule are concerned, it is about 45-55, 45 percent charter, 55 percent scheduled. The proposed bill in our judgment is tantamount to re-regulation. Some of the provisions in our estimation are not required as DOT has the necessary authority and should be permitted to take necessary action as they have in some of the code sharing cases, and if they need additional legislation, then they should advise the Congress and recommend what is the minimum necessary so that they can assure that the airlines are performing in accordance with their certificates.
Charters, as you possibly know, are fully regulated by DOT under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 208, 212 and 380. In fact, a charter cannot be canceled within 10 days of operation, deposits of consumers are fully protected either through escrow or blending arrangements. Charters are typically regulated A to Z.
Therefore, in our judgment, charters should be exempt from H.R. 700. H.R. 700 should not attempt to regulate international, either, as they would create an unlevel playing field, and national carriers which do not provide hub and spoke systems, do not engage in code sharing and have very limited if any frequent flier programs should not be regulated.
As we have said, our carriers, the small carriers, definitely provide low fare service. They have, whether it be by charter or in their scheduled service. They operate domestically, internationally and all of their fares are low and very competitive. Because that's the only way we can get repeat business, is if we are competitive. Therefore, we encourage the committee to consider exempting charters, international and national or the smaller carriers, who are less than $1 billion in revenues by individual carrier.
My carriers, just to give you a magnitude, generate about $2.5 billion a year in revenues. The largest of the carriers is less than $1 billion.
That concludes my prepared statement. I trust that you will make my original statement part of the record. Thank you.
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Mr. DUNCAN. The full statements of all the witnesses will be a part of the record.
Mr. Isakson was here from the start and was not given an opportunity to make an opening statement. So I am going to yield my time for questions at this point to Mr. Isakson.
Mr. ISAKSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have two questions. I think the first would be most appropriately addressed to Mr. Warren.
I understand, and I have not seen this myself, that there is a web site for the purposes of selling unclaimed baggage from airlines. If that's true, and I have not seen it myself, I have two questions. One, at what point do the airlines determine that the owner of a bag cannot be located, and second, do the airlines, when they have difficulty locating someone, actually open the bag to see if there is any additional evidence inside that might direct them to the owner?
Mr. WARREN. I am personally unaware of a web site that is involved in the sale in any way of lost or partially destroyed baggage. It should be put into context that 99.5 percent of all bags, and there are over 2 million bags checked on a daily basis, arrive with the passenger at their particular flight. Of that one half of one percent, 70 percent reaches the passenger within 24 hours.
Airlines make very effort to ensure that bags get to passengers. Since that costs them money, it comes out of their own hot pockets, whether they have profit sharing plans or other remuneration, it is not in the interest of the airlines to in any way do anything but get the bags back to the passengers if in fact, they are delayed or mislaid, as quickly as possible.
Mr. ISAKSON. My second question would be to Mr. Hirst. First of all, I think you said her name was Susan Baumeister, is that right?
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Mr. HIRST. That's correct.
Mr. ISAKSON. I do not know that I could ask her one directly, but I would commend her for taking care of those two kids for 90 hours, and what she did and other members of the airlines. I read in your testimony that you had changed subsequent to the incident, I guess it was in Detroit, your policy, by no longer putting two unaccompanied minors in the same room, is that correct?
Mr. HIRST. That's correct.
Mr. ISAKSON. My question is this, really on behalf of parents all over this country whose children may be required to travel unaccompanied on an airline, is the policy that Susan and other, customer service reps, follow in your airline in the management of unaccompanied minors, is that policy available easily to a parent, number one?
And number two, in extraordinary circumstances, which I realize Detroit was, but those can exactly happen, and that's when a parent is most worried, what are the follow-up responsibilities when in fact now, in your airline, an unaccompanied minor will be put by themselves in a single room, to the supervision of that minor while they're in that room by a Northwest employee?
Mr. HIRST. In answer to your first question, sir, we have a brochure that describes the program in some detail. I think the information is easily obtainable about the program.
When there is a problem, if a flight is delayed, or an unplanned overnight stay occurs, if it occurs in one of our hubs, there are lounges there, and they are very well equipped. They have a phone line that's always available for the child to call his parents at Northwest's expense. If a child has to stay overnight, we assign a quality service agent to stay with the child, and that agent stays awake throughout the night, sitting outside the room.
Any problem arises, he or she will presumably hear of it and be able to do something about it. Again, if you get a chance to talk to Susan when she's here, I think she can fill you in and give you some sense of the commitment that these folks have to these children.
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Mr. ISAKSON. So when they are put up overnight in a hub city, and it is a minor child, it is one child only since this incident, and there is external supervision outside the room, so the room is watched, is that correct?
Mr. HIRST. That is correct, sir.
Mr. ISAKSON. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. Isakson.
I've been asked by Mr. Lipinski to go first to Mr. DeFazio.
Mr. DEFAZIO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank Mr. Lipinski. Gentlemen, I ask you to keep your answers brief, because we only have five minutes. I have a number of things to go through.
Mr. Card, I remember your service at the Department of Transportation. I guess I'd like you to tell me, from your service there, I have proposed that the Department of Transportation have a toll-free number for complaints since 1987. And I have yet to receive support from DOT. Can you tell me why that might be, briefly?
Mr. CARD. In all honesty, Congressman, I wasn't aware of your requests. So remember, I had a wonderful opportunity to be Secretary of Transportation, but it was only for 11 months. But I can tell you that the Department takes very, very seriously consumer questions and complaints. Very, very seriously.
Mr. DEFAZIO. That's responsive, I appreciate it. Actually, when we had the panel here last week one woman said she spent $200 on toll calls before she discovered there was an office or a person in the Department of Transportation who might take her complaint. I think you might agree it would be useful to have a published number, readily available, perhaps even a 1-800 number.
But when I consistently have asked, and I never did get to ask you personally, at DOT, they would say, God, no, we would get so many complaints we couldn't staff the office and we would not be able to handle it. But we keep hearing now they only get 5,000 complaints. Well, guess what? No one knows they're there, they do not know they can complain there.
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Mr. Card, with your considerable experience with the U.S. Chamber and advocating that Government shouldn't regulate, could you name another industry, a competitive industry, where all of the major parties within a 24 hour period raised their prices the same percentage average as happened last weekend with the airline industry? Just quickly give me another industry that acts like that, that's a competitive industry.
Mr. CARD. I can probably cite several examples. As you remember, I used to represent the automobile industry. When their pricing strategies were announced, frequently there would be a lot of activity in pricing strategies at the same time.
The competitiveness in American capitalism suggests that all of the competitors watch each other costly and do make adjustments. I have witnessed many, many times where prices have been raised by one carrier, for example, in the airline industry, and other carriers did not go along, and immediately prices did not get raised.
Mr. DEFAZIO. Thank you. Well, in fact, the article I read quoted, saying,' we tried to raise prices 18 times, Northwest would not play ball, now they're playing ball and we are all raising prices.' That does not suggest to me a competitive industry. But in any case.
Mr. Warren, from the ATA perspective, you talk about the commitment to service. I had a Member of Congress raise this issue to me yesterday because he knew about my passenger rights bill, and it had also happened to me recently. He would like to know, if it constitutes denied boarding when you're on an airline and your connecting flight leaves early, even though you arrive in time and ran the length of the terminal, as he and I did recently, and the airline actually had left early. Here's the deal:
You're on, in this case, United Airlines, you're going to San Francisco. Your plane is late, but no so late. The connecting flight is still there, it is not yet time for departure. You run to the gate, they have closed the door. It is six minutes before departure. They refuse to open the door. The plane sits there.
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After a while, they disconnect the plane from the gate, wheel it back a little bit, it sits there another 20 minutes, they still refuse to put you on the plane. This has happened to me, it happened to him two days ago.
Under this commitment to service, is this a problem? Would we call this maybe a denied boarding or something? I am on the same airline, they know I am coming and they do not let me get on my connecting flight because they're leaving early for some bizarre reason. And when I've complained to United, they say, that's up to the zone manager and the gate agent.
Mr. WARREN. These are determinations, but there are certain pressures which I think it is fair to—
Mr. DEFAZIO. The plane sat out in front of this gate, it was not removed from the gate. This Member of Congress observed it, I observed the same thing. Is that a commitment to service, when you're connecting on a flight and you're denied boarding?
Mr. WARREN. We certainly—
Mr. DEFAZIO. Should we have a policy that that is—I tell you what I am going to do. I am going to introduce a bill that says that that type of circumstance constitutes denied boarding, whatever the airline's policies are. You can have your policies on denied boarding, we are going to define what denied boarding is. Because that sure as heck is not commitment to service.
Would you name an industry where everybody raises prices the same amount within 24 hours that is a competitive industry? Please name one for me other than airlines.
Mr. WARREN. Well, I think Mr. Card has given you ample—
Mr. DEFAZIO. Well, he did not. He vaguely talked about the auto industry, who provide a myriad of products which people can shop among. He did not talk about prices on airline tickets, where there doesn't seem to be a heck of a lot of choice, especially when many cities like mine are only served by one airline. What's your choice? Walk?
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Mr. WARREN. You do not take into account, Congressman, the situation when prices go down. And prices go down—
Mr. DEFAZIO. I do not think they should go up or down together. It doesn't sound like a competitive industry to me if everybody goes up or down at the same time. That says to me, I am putting pressure on you not to go down when I do not want to go down and I am putting pressure on you to go up when maybe you do not want to go up.
Mr. WARREN. The airline industry is a highly competitive industry. Each competitor looks at one another—
Mr. DEFAZIO. Is it competitive when only one airline serves a city, and it is 100 miles to the nearest alternate city? Is that a competitive situation?
Mr. WARREN. Congressman, there are—
Mr. DEFAZIO. Is that a competitive situation, yes or no? I just want to know. Can one airline compete with itself? Is that competitive?
Mr. WARREN. It all depends on what particular circumstances are surrounding that airport, and what options the customers have in terms of various—
Mr. DEFAZIO. They can get in the car, drive for 100 miles, two hours, park their car, add two and a half, three hours to their trip, as a business traveler, each way, in order to have a choice. That's competition? that's adequate?
Mr. WARREN. No, there is competition, strong competition, both in smaller, mid-size communities, as well as in large communities.
Mr. DEFAZIO. If I could, Mr. Chairman, indulge me just one more question for Northwest, and I am not going to get in to the storm at all. But I just would like the gentleman at Northwest to answer the same question the other two gentlemen really couldn't answer.
What other industry specifically do you find in which everybody in the industry, all the major players, raise their prices by an identical percentage within a 24 hour period that is considered competitive, other than the airline industry?
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Mr. HIRST. I am in the airline industry, I am not in other industries. I would be glad to—
Mr. DEFAZIO. Well, I just want you to, because you went on at great length about how competitive and how complex pricing was, and it has nothing to do with distance traveled, which I know, because it costs me four times to fly to Portland as Eugene, same airline miles, they're separated by 100 miles. One airport has competitors, the other doesn't.
But I understand that.
Mr. HIRST. Basically the problem is that this is a commodity business, it is extremely price sensitive. Nobody is persistently able to, on the basis of product, charge more than another airline. So prices move together.
We do not earn high profits. And we certainly are, as businesses, trying to increase revenues and if possible increase our margins. It is very, very difficult, because the business is so competitive.
If we were earning double digit profits, I would think you would have a point. I'll be glad to do some research, Congressman, if it would help and see if there are other industries—
Mr. DEFAZIO. I am just curious, you keep talking about how you do not want the heavy hand of regulation, because you are so competitive and you are doing a great job and you are committed to service. We are hearing the opposite thing from our constituents.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you, Mr. DeFazio.
Vice Chairman Sweeney.
Mr. SWEENEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank our guests and panelists for their presentation.
I sat here and listened to my good friend, Andy Card, talk about the need for us to resist micromanaging in industry. Andy, you know that I agree with you on 90 percent of those issues, in that we in Congress ought to have a constrained approach to the private sector and the public application of rules and regulations. We are in the midst of that great experiment.
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I want to echo a little bit the frustration of my colleague, Mr. DeFazio. I have to tell you, Mr. Hirst, as I sit here and listen to you talk about the storm and talk generally about the industry, it strikes me that the industry itself is in the great depths of denial, that everything is going well and it is somebody else's fault. We heard that repeatedly last week, that that was the approach the industry has taken.
I hear it repeatedly from my constituents. So I'll suggest to each of you, especially my good friend Andy Card, that our role here is to maybe provide for you in the industry a wake-up call. These hearings are critically important to the people we represent, and the industry itself needs to move more quickly and maybe more seriously adopt the old adage that the customer is always right. Because it seems to me that you're not doing that at all, it is the customer is wrong and we've got it under control. None of us, I think, believe that.
But let me ask Captain Gilroy, because I think you were on the ground, and I do not want to delve too deeply and try to micromanage in hindsight what happened in Detroit at the beginning of the year. But maybe you could tell us what you knew of the plans and procedures that were in place and how those plans and procedures were to be executed in like situations.
Captain GILROY. I can give you a good example. As I mentioned in my remarks, our SOC takes a very proactive view of issues like this. I recall a circumstance, I believe it was in the winter of 1995, when we had a significant weather event that impacted the entire east coast. Northwest Airlines is unique amongst its peers in that we have a full time staff of meteorologists that looks very closely at weather systems.
In that circumstance, they were able to forecast a significantly different forecast than the National Weather Service was issuing. In fact, we forecasted in that circumstances, snow as far south as the Carolinas, I believe 11 inches of snow in that circumstance was forecast to hit Raleigh, North Carolina. The National Weather Service wasn't even forecasting any significant precipitation there.
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And as a result of that, we were able to make the decision to pull our fleet off the east coast, which we did. Our competitors chose to leave their aircraft there, and they were significantly impacted by—
Mr. SWEENEY. Excuse me, and that wasn't available for your flight to Detroit?
Captain GILROY. Yes, sir, it was, and I believe that our SOC did a very good job in pulling back the number of flights. We had a significant problem, I believe, with the flow of information that was available to them. As Mr. Hirst stated, we anticipated that airplanes would have been moved off the gates in preparation for the aircraft to arrive.
My flight, for example, we were told, do not arrive in Detroit prior to 2:30 p.m., which we landed at 2:35 p.m. Unfortunately, once we had departed from Newark, that information was not then transmitted to us, that this airport's not going to be able to handle you. I know our people in our ramp tower worked constantly to get the airplanes safely off the gates. I know that at no time did they feel they were more than a couple of hours from breaking the airport free.
But once they would solve one problem, due to the severe conditions, another problem would seem to creep up. We had tugs that were running out of fuel, and we couldn't get fuel to the tugs because of some environmental concerns with the tank system, and other things like that.
Mr. SWEENEY. Since the incident, and that seven hour wait, what have you done, Mr. Hirst, what adjustments has your airline made?
Mr. HIRST. Well, a number of things, Mr. Sweeney. One of the things we've done is to designate what we call a go team. If we ever have a severe weather emergency, we dispatch employees from all over our system to add to the personnel who are there. One of the problems we had in Detroit was that because the streets were unplowed Saturday night, only about half of our employees could get to the airport.
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The last time there was a storm in Detroit, I think it was last week, the week before, we dispatched this group of people from all over the system, so we made sure we had enough people there. We've re-examined our communications procedures between the SOC, the systems operation center, in Minneapolis and our other stations, such as Detroit, to make sure that there is more communication and more timely communication, so that judgments that are made can be reevaluated and reexamined.
We worked with the airport to redo their snow removal plan. Because it presented some problems. During Saturday, for example, the de-ice pad that we were using did not get de-iced promptly. That created a lot of the congestion and the delays on Saturday, which led to the excessive number of planes that were overnighted and that led to more of the problems.
So we've done quite a bit, and we'd be glad to make available to you the documentation on that.
Mr. SWEENEY. I see my time has run out. I want to ask a couple of very quick questions.
As you know, the testimony we received last week is absolutely contrary to what you just told us. We were told that you had staffing in that airport. We were told that you had staffing nearby, that you simply didn't deploy them.
Let me ask this one final question. As part of your corrections in procedures, has the airline instituted a toll-free number for customer service?
Mr. HIRST. We are looking at that. we are studying it.
Mr. SWEENEY. Can you explain to me why you would not have that done after such an occurrence, where you have a 1-800—
Mr. HIRST. Personally, I think it is a very good idea.
Mr. SWEENEY. Would you let me finish? Where you would have a 1-800 number for reservations, it seems to me that your priorities again are a little bit backwards.
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Mr. HIRST. Fair enough. We are an evolving business. And we are doing the best we can to move ahead, make improvements to our business as we learn more about the environment we are operating in. We have a proposal that we are taking to our board to establish a 1-800 number for customer complaints. Personally, I think it is a very good idea.
One of the things we are learning as we develop our hub systems is that investments made in making the hub operate efficiently, although they may be high initially, tend to pay off. Because when the hub doesn't operate efficiently, expenses and inconvenience spirals, it multiplies. And an investment in an 800 number will allow us more rapidly I think to respond to what our customers want to tell us, and will turn out to be a good investment. I predict that's what we will do.
Mr. SWEENEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Sweeney. Mrs. Johnson.
Mrs. JOHNSON. Thank you very much.
I have listened to the testimony of the passengers as well as this panel. I have not yet received the information that I would like to seek. I do not think any passenger desires to be subjected to danger by flying when the weather is not predictable, or predictable and not pleasant. I've been in situations, all of us here are pretty much frequent fliers. Though you might be frustrated, nobody's upset, because you have caused us to have more safety by not flying during those times.
But it is during those times and how it is handled on the ground is what many of the people are concerned about. I do not like any regulation any more than you do. But I think that when regulations are passed, it is out of the demand from the people to solve problems.
I wonder, you heard, I am sure, all of that testimony and you experienced the situations. Have you taken steps to correct it? For example, one lady spoke of being out of food, toilets running over, but could not get back to a gate or get off, and I guess nobody thought of bringing anything to the plane. Have you thought about solving those kinds of problems?
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Mr. HIRST. Yes, we have, Congresswoman.
Mrs. JOHNSON. Tell me some of the steps you have taken.
Mr. HIRST. One of the things we were concerned about was that there wasn't a plan in place that would allow aircraft to be moved to a plowed location in Detroit where passengers could be offloaded onto stairs safely and then bussed away. One modification to the Detroit Metro airport snow plan will involve plowing on a priority basis one of the holding boxes that's near a road, where it can be possible under the right circumstances to unload planes if necessary manually.
We recognize, though, that that is—or can be—a dangerous process, because the hard stands are metal. If they're in iced conditions, either passengers are going to be getting off on ice or they're going to be getting off on propylene glycol that's been used to de-ice them, which is very slippery.
I think the situation in Detroit was unique. And it consisted, as Captain Gilroy said, of a series of steps, one of which added onto the problem caused by the last. The fact that we ended up with 68 aircraft overnight in Detroit on Saturday led to a lot of the problems of clearing the gates on Sunday.
So a number of the steps we've taken working with the airport, modifying their snow plan, and working with ourself internally to modify our communications plan, would have prevented those planes from being overnighted Saturday night, which would have made it possible, I think, to have cleared gates on a more rapid basis.
We hated having to be in a position of parking planes on the tarmac without adequate lavatory facilities and without adequate food or things to drink. I mean, all of us, when I heard about that, I felt terrible about it, I still feel terrible about it.
But nobody was hurt. We didn't do anything that led to people putting themselves in danger trying to get off those planes. Having to trade off safety against customer convenience and comfort was simply the tradeoff we had to make at that point.
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Mrs. JOHNSON. But you have not planned any way to relieve a situation in case, there's hardly any way we can predict that the weather won't get that way again.
Mr. HIRST. What we can do is, if the weather gets that way again, prevent 68 planes from clogging the gates. The reason we couldn't get the planes on Sunday to the gates was that overnight, 68 planes sat there and basically got snowed in. I do not think we would see—
Mrs. JOHNSON. But if you have 25 planes, which is really less than 68, that had to wait that number of hours, what's going to make the situation better for the people on that plane?
Mr. HIRST. We are doing everything we can to make sure that doesn't ever happen again. It is just not acceptable to have—
Mrs. JOHNSON. But if it happened again, what will you do? Have you made any plans?
Mr. HIRST. I am not sure there is anything we could do that we haven't already done. We train our people to do the best they can under those circumstances. We do everything we can to get the planes to the gates or get them some place where they can be unloaded in a safe manner.
We had a combination of circumstances in Detroit that weekend that made all the things we would normally do impossible to do.
Mrs. JOHNSON. If this happened and, is there any way to get any diapers or juice or food or any relief to the passengers who are out there, and can not get off, they've got children, babies and elderly, no medication, no water to drink?
Mr. HIRST. Again, the problem here was that the planes, most of these planes were parked on a taxiway that was two miles from the airport. It was linked only by another road that was unplowed, it had a foot of snow on it. It wasn't possible to get supplies out to those planes.
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If they had, getting them up to the planes, I was told, would have been difficult if not impossible because of the way they were lined up. They couldn't get the trucks—
Mrs. JOHNSON. So it is not possible to alter anything if this happens again?
Mr. HIRST. This was an unusual set of circumstances. Our efforts have been designed to prevent it from ever occurring again.
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir, I understand that. But if it happened again—
Mr. HIRST. We are doing everything we can to prevent if from happening again. But we do not operate in a perfect world. We can not guard against every weather event. Perhaps something like this will happen again. I believe we've taken steps that will make it very unlikely.
Mrs. JOHNSON. Thank you. Let me say that the last thing I'd like to do is support a lot of regulation, re-regulation, whatever. But we cannot continue to answer to constituents unless we've been convinced that you're going to take care of this. Most of the things that happened here is as a result of constituents pressing us for it. If there is no pressure, we normally do not try to fix the problem. Because we are not even aware there is a problem.
But when there are problems as severe as this—
Mr. HIRST. Mrs. Johnson, we have exactly the same interest you do. We are in the customer service business. If we do not find ways to meet our customers' needs, we are not going to stay in business. So we are totally working on the same page here.
Mrs. JOHNSON. What is your policy if someone has to go to a hotel room, or can go to a hotel room if they have minor children, children traveling alone?
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Mr. HIRST. If children are traveling alone and they are kept overnight because of a disruption, flight's canceled, delayed, then we obtain a hotel room for them, a quality service agent such as Mrs. Baumeister goes to the room with them. We do not put two children together in the same room, even though we have done it in the past on request. Because a lot of times, a small child will be afraid to be alone.
But we do not do that any more. The quality service agent stays outside the room throughout the night, stays awake, sits there, is available in case any problems arise.
Mrs. JOHNSON. Thank you very much.
Mr. DUNCAN. Thank you. Mr. Hutchinson?
Mr. HUTCHINSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I had a series of questions I wanted to ask to Mr. Warren. First of all, and I've referenced this in my opening statement, Mr. Warren, have the major carriers taken any positive steps to address the concerns that we've heard during these hearings, and also the concerns that are targeted in the legislation pending before this committee? And if you would, explain any steps that the carriers have taken.
Mr. WARREN. Yes, Congressman, the members of ATA have seriously taken a look at customer service issues. They've examined internally what they can do to address those customer service issues. They have worked together to come forward with those issues that they feel that through the various legislative efforts are the highest priority, that need remedial effort. They have come up with their commitment to customer service, which I set forth in my testimony, both written and oral, today.
They are very committed to ensuring that, as I said, that customers received the best service that can be provided.
Mr. HUTCHINSON. In this legislation, there are certain responsibilities that are placed on the carriers, certain rights that are given to passengers. Any time you create a right, there has to be a remedy available to enforce that right. I guess there's two ways that can be done, one is through the Department of Transportation and setting up an enforcement mechanism. The other would be a private right of action by the customer.
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Have you considered the impact of the private right of action provisions in some of this legislation, and what is your reaction to that?
Mr. WARREN. Congressman, the issue of rights, routes and services