SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
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44–833 CC
1997
CONDUIT PAYMENTS TO THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM
AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
OCTOBER 9, 1997
Serial No. 105–51
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM AND OVERSIGHT
DAN BURTON, Indiana, Chairman
BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York
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J. DENNIS HASTERT, Illinois
CONSTANCE A. MORELLA, Maryland
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut
STEVEN SCHIFF, New Mexico
CHRISTOPHER COX, California
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida
JOHN M. MCHUGH, New York
STEPHEN HORN, California
JOHN L. MICA, Florida
THOMAS M. DAVIS, Virginia
DAVID M. MCINTOSH, Indiana
MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana
JOE SCARBOROUGH, Florida
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona
STEVEN C. LATOURETTE, Ohio
MARSHALL ''MARK'' SANFORD, South Carolina
JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire
PETE SESSIONS, Texas
MICHAEL PAPPAS, New Jersey
VINCE SNOWBARGER, Kansas
BOB BARR, Georgia
ROB PORTMAN, Ohio
HENRY A. WAXMAN, California
TOM LANTOS, California
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ROBERT E. WISE, Jr., West Virginia
MAJOR R. OWENS, New York
EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York
PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania
GARY A. CONDIT, California
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
THOMAS M. BARRETT, Wisconsin
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, Washington, DC
CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania
ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland
DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio
ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH, Illinois
DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
JIM TURNER, Texas
THOMAS H. ALLEN, Maine
HAROLD E. FORD, Tennessee
———
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont (Independent)
KEVIN BINGER, Staff Director
RICHARD D. BENNETT, Chief Counsel
JUDITH MCCOY, Chief Clerk
PHIL SCHILIRO, Minority Staff Director
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C O N T E N T S
Hearing held on October 9, 1997
Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by:
Barr, Hon. Bob, a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia:
Exhibits 70, 71, 72, 75, 76, and 78
Exhibits 115, 119, 60, 61, 53, and 67
Bennett, Richard, chief counsel, Committee on Government Reform and Oversight:
Exhibit 68
Exhibit 69
Exhibits 70, 71, and 72
Exhibit 73
Exhibits 75 and 76
Exhibit 77
Exhibit 78
Exhibit 93
Exhibit 94
Exhibit 96
Exhibit 97
Exhibit C–28
Exhibit 99
Exhibit 100
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Exhibit 101
Exhibits 102 and 103
Exhibit 106
Exhibits 104 and 105
Burton, Hon. Dan, a Representative in Congress from the State of Indiana:
Letters referring to House Rule XI 3.(f)(2)
Pertinent supplementary material
Prepared statement of
Foung, Manlin:
Deposition of
Exhibits from deposition
Horn, Hon. Stephen, a Representative in Congress from the State of California:
Exhibit 113
Information concerning John Huang's whereabouts
Kanjorski, Hon. Paul E., a Representative in Congress from the State of Pennsylvania, photograph of John Huang
Landon, Joseph Raymond, Jr.:
Depostion of
Exhibits from deposition
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Lantos, Hon. Tom, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, letter dated October 8, 1997
Mica, Hon. John L., a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida, exhibit 110
Wang, David:
Deposition of
Exhibits from deposition
Waxman, Hon. Henry A., a Representative in Congress from the State of California:
Bank of China annual report
Chart referring to John Huang as Charlie Trie's DNC contact
Minority staff report
CONDUIT PAYMENTS TO THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 9, 1997
House of Representatives,
Committee on Government Reform and Oversight,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Dan Burton (chairman of the committee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Burton, Hastert, Morella, Shays, Cox, McHugh, Horn, Mica, McIntosh, Souder, Shadegg, Sununu, Sessions, Pappas, Snowbarger, Barr, Portman, Waxman, Lantos, Owens, Kanjorski, Condit, Maloney, Barrett, Norton, Fattah, Cummings, Kucinich, Blagojevich, Davis of Illinois, Tierney, Turner, Allen, and Ford.
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Staff present: Kevin Binger, staff director; Richard Bennett, chief counsel; William Moschella, deputy counsel and parliamentarian; Butch Hodgson, chief investigator; Daniel R. Moll, deputy staff director; Judith McCoy, chief clerk; Teresa Austin, assistant clerk/calendar clerk; Robin Butler, office manager; Will Dwyer, director of communications; Ashley Williams, deputy director of communications; Barbara Comstock, chief investigative counsel; Robert Rohrbaugh, James C. Wilson, Tim Griffin, and Uttam Dhillon, senior investigative counsels; Dave Bossie, oversight coordinator; Kristi Remington, Alicemary Leach, Bill Hanka, and David Kass, investigative counsels; Jim Schumann, John Irving, and Jason Foster, investigators; Phil Larsen, investigative consultant; Carolyn Pritts, administrative investigative assistant; David Jones and John Mastranadi, investigative staff assistants; Phil Schiliro, minority staff director; Phil Barnett, minority chief counsel; Kenneth Ballen, minority chief investigative counsel; Agnieszka Fryszman, Christopher Lu, Matthew Joseph, Andrew McLaughlin, David Sadkin, Michael Yang, Michael Yeager, minority counsels; Harry Gossett and Mark Stephenson, minority professional staff members; Ellen Rayner, minority chief clerk; Becky Claster, Jean Gosa, Andrew Su, and Amy Wendt, minority staff assistants; and Sheridan Pauker, minority research assistant.
Mr. BURTON. The committee will come to order.
Would the television cameras recede a little bit? And when we get through with our opening statements, at the request of the counsel for the witnesses, we will ask the television cameras to leave the room.
Good morning. A quorum being present, the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight will come to order. Before the distinguished ranking member and I deliver our opening statements, the committee must first dispose of some procedural issues.
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I ask unanimous consent that Members be able to use the depositions of Manlin Foung, Joseph Landon and David Wang at today's hearing and ask further unanimous consent that they be made a part of the record.
Mr. WAXMAN. Reserving the right to object, those depositions, Mr. Chairman, will be, in their entirety, part of the record?
Mr. BURTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. WAXMAN. We have no objection.
Mr. BURTON. Without objection, so ordered.
I also ask unanimous consent that questioning in the matter under consideration proceed under clause 2(j)(2) of House rule XI and committee rule 14 in which the chairman and ranking minority member allocate time to committee counsel as they deem appropriate for extended questioning, not to exceed 60 minutes, equally divided by the majority and the minority.
And without objection, so ordered.
Mr. LANTOS. Reserving the right to object.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman reserves the right to object.
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Mr. LANTOS. Does this mean, Mr. Chairman, that committee counsel, with his questioning, will precede members of the committee?
Mr. BURTON. Yes, sir. For the first hour, we will have committee counsel on each side question for 30 minutes.
Mr. WAXMAN. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. LANTOS. I'll be glad to yield.
Mr. WAXMAN. The rules have recently been changed in the House of Representatives to provide for an interrogation of a half-hour, first by the majority and then a half-hour by the minority. That time can be allocated to staff or to Members as the chairman sees fit on his side or we see fit on our side.
Mr. BURTON. That is correct.
Mr. WAXMAN. Under the rules, this must be agreed to either by consent of the ranking member with the chairman or vote of the committee.
I don't see an objection to what the chairman is requesting. I think this is going to be the first time that the House of Representatives has used this new format for a more extended period of time for interrogation. We'll try it out.
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Mr. LANTOS. Continuing my right to reserve, I will not object. However, I think it is a very bad procedure. It is analogous in political campaigns to having a battle of advertising agencies rather than candidates themselves.
I think members of this committee should conduct their own questioning. That is why we have been sent here by our respective constituencies. And to turn this very important function over to our staff, I think is less than ideal procedure. But I withdraw my objection.
Mr. BURTON. Without objection, so ordered.
I further ask unanimous consent that the questioning in the matter under consideration proceed under clause 2(j)(2) of House rule XI and committee rule 14 in which the chairman and ranking minority member allocate time to members of the committee as they deem appropriate for extended questioning, not to exceed 60 minutes for the first panel, equally divided between the majority and the minority.
And there has been agreement reached between myself and the ranking member, Mr. Waxman, that we will proceed under an equation or situation where there will be 10 minutes given to the majority side and 10 minutes to the minority and so on until the 60 minutes is exhausted.
Is there objection?
Hearing none, so ordered.
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On October 1, 1997, the committee received a letter addressed from Charles J. Stephens requesting, on behalf of his clients, Manlin Foung and Joseph Landon, that the cameras be turned off pursuant to clause 3(f)(2) of House rule XI. Similarly, David Wang's attorney, Michael A. Carvin, sent a similar letter on October 8, 1997.
Without objection, those letters will be entered into the record.
[The letters referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 1 TO 2 HERE
Mr. BURTON. Clause 3(f)(2) of House rule XI allows a subpoenaed witness to have the cameras turned off and the microphones used for broadcast turned off. The rules provide that,
No witness served with a subpoena by the committee shall be required against his or her will to be photographed at any hearing or to give evidence or testimony while the broadcasting of that hearing by radio or television is being conducted.
At the request of any such witness who does not wish to be subjected to radio, television, or still photography coverage, all lenses shall be covered, and all microphones used for coverage turned off.
While I'm disappointed that this hearing will not be televised because we believe the American people have the right to know what these witnesses have to say. However, Manlin Foung, Joseph Landon, and David Wang have asserted their rights under the rule, and the committee is obliged to honor their request. Therefore, at the appropriate time, I will instruct our friends in the media to observe the rule and cover all lenses and shut off all microphones used for coverage.
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I now yield myself such time as I may consume.
Today, marks the first day of hearings into illegal foreign fund-raising and other violations of law during recent campaigns. We have three witnesses today. These individuals have admitted to making conduit contributions to the Democratic National Committee.
Testifying on our first panel will be Manlin Foung, the sister of Charlie Trie. Joining her will be her companion, Joseph Landon. Testifying on our second panel will be David Wang, a businessman from Los Angeles. Our witnesses today are not villains; they are victims. They are ordinary people who are put on the spot by someone they trusted, and they got burned.
Ms. Foung, Mr. Landon, and Mr. Wang have given their full cooperation to this committee, and we really appreciate that. They have talked to us voluntarily. Their testimony will help us as we slowly but surely try to put the pieces of this puzzle together. We owe them our thanks for their cooperation.
It stands in marked contrast to the cooperation we have received from the White House and the Democratic National Committee. The difficulty this committee has faced with the White House has been deplorable. It is an outrage that the White House has withheld knowledge of the White House coffee videotapes until now.
This committee's March 4th subpoena specifically required the production of videotapes 7 months ago. At least a half a dozen senior White House aides and the President himself were taped. It is obvious that the President and most of his senior staff knew that these tapes existed for a long time. After all, the President was in the tapes.
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The fact that they have been withheld this entire year borders on obstruction. There are reportedly another 150 tapes of Democratic National Committee events that we still have not received. The record shows more and more that this White House and this President are not eager for the American people to know the whole truth, and the American people have a right to know the facts.
Fortunately, today, we have witnesses who have been cooperative and are willing to tell the truth. Ms. Foung and Mr. Landon contributed $35,000 to the DNC in 1996 at Charlie Trie's request. They were promptly reimbursed for each contribution. Our investigators have traced $10,000 of this amount directly back to the Bank of China in Macao. This money was wired to the United States in August 1996. Within 10 days, it was in the hands of the Democratic National Committee. The other $25,000 was repaid in sequentially numbered money orders from a bank in New York City.
Mr. Wang contributed $5,000 to the Democratic National Committee in August of last year. His friend, Daniel Wu, also contributed $5,000. Daniel Wu lives in Taiwan. Both contributions were made at the request of John Huang. Both men were paid back with envelopes full of cash given to them by Antonio Pan.
We have granted these witnesses immunity from prosecution. This is an extra layer of protection to make sure that these three people can come forward and tell the American people what happened without any fear. It is well known that the Justice Department, as a matter of policy, does not seek to prosecute straw donors. I will quote from a 1994 memo from the director of the Justice Department's Election Crimes branch, quote, The Justice Department has a long-standing, nonprosecution policy for persons who are used as conduits or straws to disguise another person's illegal contributions, provided that allowing their names to be used by another is the extent of their participation in the scheme, end quote.
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The testimony we are about to receive cannot be dismissed lightly. John Huang and Charlie Trie are both close friends and appointees of the President. John Huang was in the White House over 90 times during the President Clinton's first term. He had numerous meetings with the President. The President personally intervened to help move him from the Commerce Department to the Democratic National Committee.
This is the first time in my memory that we have seen evidence of such blatantly illegal activity by a senior national party official. John Huang's title at the Democratic National Committee was vice chairman for finance.
Likewise, Charlie Trie was a close personal friend of the President. Charlie Trie visited the White House nearly 40 times that we know of. In early 1996, the President signed an Executive order enlarging a Presidential commission on trade, so he could appoint Mr. Trie to that commission. It should be disturbing to all of us to receive testimony about illegal and unethical conduct by such close associates to the President of the United States.
An important figure that is going to emerge during this hearing is a man named Antonio Pan. Mr. Pan is a rather mysterious figure who had ties to Charlie Trie, the Lippo Group, and John Huang. He was in the White House eight times in 1995 and 1996. He was apparently the bag man in both the transactions involving Manlin Foung and David Wang. It will become clear through documents and testimony that he was handling large amounts of cash.
Antonio Pan's involvement here raises a number of questions. Whose bidding was he doing? Charlie Trie's? John Huang's? The Lippo Group's? Were they all collaborating? Where did the cash come from? A number of the transactions we are going to talk about today involve large amounts of cash. If we are going to trace the origins of this money, we are going to have to talk to the people who handled that cash.
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Charlie Trie has left the country. I don't think he's planning on coming back. The last we heard, he was in Shanghai. John Huang has taken the fifth. Antonio Pan has left the country. According to our most recent information, we believe that he's either in Hong Kong or New Zealand. This is a perfect case study in the obstacles that this committee has faced in trying to root out the truth about the illegal foreign money that was flowing to the DNC.
The obstacles have been many. More than 60 people have either taken the fifth amendment or fled the country to avoid revealing their role in this scandal. Next week, the President will be meeting with President Jiang Zemin of the People's Republic of China. If he wants to get all of the facts laid out on the table, he should insist that the Chinese Government send Charlie Trie back to the United States so we can question him. The American people have an absolute right to know what Charlie Trie did and what senior Government officials asked him to do.
Finally, today's hearing is going to focus much-needed attention on the DNC's program of identifying and returning illegal contributions. It appears that the DNC's highly touted audit by Ernst & Young was error prone and is completely unreliable. This is a subject that we are likely to return to in future hearings.
I once again want to thank our witnesses for their cooperation. This has been a tense and nervous couple of weeks for them, and we understand that. This hearing room is probably the last place that they want to be today, but we are going to try to make this as easy as possible for all of them.
I now recognize our ranking member, Mr. Waxman, for his comments.
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[The prepared statement of Hon. Dan Burton follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 3 TO 5 HERE
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing today. After nearly a year of investigating and $3 million spent, we're hearing from our first witnesses about the 1996 elections. The focus of this hearing is on conduit payments. Conduit payments are, of course, illegal; unfortunately, they've also become much too common. In Senator Dole's campaign, for instance, both Simon Fireman and Empire Landfill have admitted to pervasive conduit schemes and directed $149,000 in illegal donations to the Dole campaign. In fact, today's Washington Post has the headline ''Firm to Pay $8 million Fine for Illegal Campaign Gifts.''
Moreover, as the chart on the screen indicates, the Federal Elections Commission is currently investigating 27 conduit payments involving 214 individuals. The FEC has closed 21 cases involving 108 individuals and levied $335,000 in fines. The FEC also closed, without action, 20 cases involving 246 respondents under their enforcement priority system. All these cases are for the 1992, 1994 and 1996 election cycles.
Our hearings have value if they at least add to the knowledge gained already in Senator Thompson's hearings. So it is useful to review briefly the July 29 Senate hearing that focused on Charlie Trie.
[Video shown.]
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Senator THOMPSON. ''There was a Presidential appointment in April 1996. So the committee will hear today from Mr. Jerry Campane, an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And it will later hear from two witnesses to whom it has granted immunity for the—from the use of their testimony and any criminal prosecutions against them.
''Senator Glenn, do you have an opening statement?''
Senator GLENN. ''I don't have an opening statement.''
Senator THOMPSON. ''All right.
''Mr. Campane, will you please stand and raise your right hand.''
Mr. WAXMAN. That was an excerpt from Senator Thompson's hearing and part of his opening statement. At that hearing, he had three witnesses testifying. The first, Jerry Campane, was an FBI agent detailed to the Senate. He led the Senate conduit investigation and used the chart now on the screen—if we could have that chart put on the screen—to show how Charlie Trie and Ng Lap Seng, also known as Mr. Wu, arranged conduit payments. And I want to point out that these conduit payments were for a February 1996 fund-raiser at the Hay-Adams Hotel, which is the same fund-raiser that Manlin Foung and Joseph Landon contributed to.
[The chart referred to follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 6 HERE
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Mr. WAXMAN. Also testifying at the Senate hearing were Yue Chu and Xi Ping Wang, whose names are on the charts. They received immunity from the Senate and testified that they made contributions and were subsequently reimbursed by Charlie Trie and Ng Lap Seng.
In my view, the Senate hearing conclusively demonstrated that Mr. Trie and Ng Lap Seng asked Yue Chu and Xi Ping Wang to make conduit contributions. The depositions of Manlin Foung and Joseph Landon seem to indicate that they had an identical experience. But there is nothing in their deposition that adds to the knowledge to what Senator Thompson uncovered in his July 29 hearing. Instead of bringing them here from California, we could have achieved the same result simply by replaying not just that opening from Senator Thompson's hearing, but the whole hearing itself.
Now we have a third witness today, but before addressing his testimony, I want to make a brief comment to my Democratic colleagues. As the senior Democrat on this committee, I have a special responsibility to make sure our side has all the necessary information in making decisions. In retrospect, I believe I made a serious mistake in not adequately questioning the information Chairman Burton gave to us regarding David Wang and in agreeing to his recommendation to approve immunity.
When the matter was before us, I was influenced most by the fact that Mr. Wang seemed to be an innocent victim in a conduit scheme and that he made statements to committee investigators without an attorney present, and with no understanding of the legal consequences that he faced. But I was also perhaps too sensitive to the fact that if the Democrats opposed immunity, we would be accused of being partisan. I will not make that mistake again.
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It is now clear that David Wang never should have received immunity. He has repeatedly misled this committee and Chairman Burton and his staff and our staff, and we have failed to ensure that his representations were truthful. The essence of his testimony—the part the chairman, the Republican chief counsel and other committee members have been citing, and the press has been reporting—appears to be a fiction.
I personally questioned Mr. Wang during his deposition on Monday, and he testified that John Huang called him on the morning of August 16th. According to Mr. Wang's testimony, 1 hour later, John Huang then arrived in Mr. Wang's Los Angeles office. Mr. Wang also testified that at that time, John Huang asked for and immediately received Mr. Wang's contribution to the Clinton campaign. The truth, however, is that this never happened.
John Huang did not meet with David Wang on August 16. In the last 3 days, the Democratic staff has thoroughly investigated this matter. Later this morning, I will enter into the record hotel bills, receipts, photographs, news stories and sworn affidavits that prove that John Huang was in New York on August 16th. It was impossible for him to have met with Mr. Wang.
Now, it's bad enough that we have approved immunity for false testimony. But even worse is that in the course of his deposition, Mr. Wang disclosed other criminal acts or potential criminal acts that are far more serious than his conduit contribution. But because he provided that information in response to a question Republican Counsel Dick Bennett asked, he now has immunity for those crimes as well. We have blundered into giving Mr. Wang immunity for immigration and tax fraud and received only false statements in return.
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At the outset, I said our hearings will only have value if we add to what Senator Thompson has learned. But that presupposes that we do no harm. Today we do harm. We have made a careless and irresponsible decision on immunity. We cannot take the representations Chairman Burton gives us at face value. And I regret that we didn't initiate our own Democratic investigation of Mr. Wang earlier. That is another mistake we won't make again.
In a year of embarrassments, this is the most damaging one to our committee.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. I would just like to say to the ranking member that while immunity was granted, there is no immunity for perjury before this committee, and all witnesses will be sworn, as the ranking member knows.
With that, in accordance with what I previously stated in the rule, we will ask the cameras to be shut off, to be covered, and the microphones to be covered so that we can proceed with the——
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. Yes.
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Mr. WAXMAN. In light of the fact that the most serious witness before us is Mr. Wang, I would ask that we put him on first.
Mr. BURTON. We already have the schedule. And the Chair has——
Mr. WAXMAN. There's no reason why that schedule couldn't be changed. He is the witness from whom we are going to learn something today. And we may have learned that, to our regret, we're out giving immunity inappropriately. Let's put him on first.
Mr. BURTON. Mr. Waxman, the gentleman is not even here yet. He was scheduled to come this afternoon. He won't be around until at least noon. And we will proceed as we have scheduled.
The cameras will be shut off at this time. They will be covered. The microphones will be covered in accordance with the request of the witnesses.
[Pause.]
Mr. BURTON. If you're going to leave that camera there, could you cover that lens, please, just to make sure that the witnesses feel comfortable. I know you have it shut off, but I want to make sure it's covered, so we don't have to worry about it.
Thank you, sir. I appreciate that very much. That is an unusual cover you have there. Could you find some kind of cover or turn that camera around on the right, please, or whatever you want to do to cover it up?
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Are we about set? Would the officer out there shut that door as soon as the door is cleared, please?
Manlin Foung and Joseph Landon, with your counsel, would you approach the witness table, please? Would you stand and raise your right hands, please?
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. BURTON. Be seated.
Once again, we want to thank you for your cooperation in being here today. And like I said to both of you before we started, we're going to try to make this as easy and as painless as possible. So just relax. And if you need some water or anything, take your time.
I now recognize the committee's chief counsel, Mr. Bennett, to start the questioning. He will be recognized for 30 minutes, and then we'll yield to the ranking minority member for whomever he chooses for the remaining 30 minutes of the first hour.
[The depositions of Manlin Foung and Joseph Landon follow:]
Executive Session
DEPOSITION OF: MANLIN FOUNG
| Monday, September 29, 1997 |
The deposition in the above matter was held in the Office of Charles J. Stevens, Esq., 400 Capitol Mall, Suite 1450, Sacramento, California, commencing at 9:00 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Richard D. Bennett, special counsel; James C. Wilson, senior investigative counsel; Charles F. Little, investigator; Kenneth Ballen, minority chief investigator; Phil Barnett, minority chief counsel; and Christopher Lu, minority counsel.
For MANLIN FOUNG:
CHARLES J. STEVENS, ESQ.
Stevens & O'Connell
400 Capitol Mall, Suite 1450
Sacramento, California 95814
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Mr. BENNETT. Good morning, Ms. Foung. I am Dick Bennett, Special Counsel to the United States House of Representatives, Committee on Government Reform and Oversight. I want to thank you for coming.
In an abundance of caution, I want to read a preamble and some ground rules prior to having the oath be administered. If for any reason you don't understand any questions that we have here today, don't hesitate to indicate that you don't understand.
On behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, I want to thank you for appearing. The record should reflect that we are here in Sacramento, California, taking your deposition. This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing the proceeding is a House reporter and notary public, and I would now request that he place you under oath.
THEREUPON, MANLIN FOUNG, a witness, was called for examination by counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung, I would like to note for the record those who are present at the beginning of this deposition. Your attorney, Chuck Stevens, is here with you. And again the record should reflect we are here in Mr. Stevens' office.
I am Dick Bennett, special counsel to the committee. With me and accompanying me is Mr. Jim Wilson, who is also Majority counsel for the House committee. Also, Mr. Charles Little, an investigator for the committee.
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Here for the Minority today are Messrs. Ken Ballen, Phil Barnett, and Charles Lu.
Mr. Lu. Chris Lu.
Mr. BENNETT. Chris Lu. I'm sorry.
Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee, before the Congress, or in a courtroom. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. BENNETT. If I ask you about conversations you have had in the past and if you are unable to recall the exact words used in a conversation, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and you may then give the gist or substance of any conversation to the best of your recollection. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Oh, yes, I do.
Mr. BENNETT. The court reporter cannot pick up a nod of your head.
If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give us your best recollection of these events or parts of conversations that you recall. If I ask you whether you have any information about a particular subject and you have overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding that subject, or have seen correspondence or documentation about that subject, please tell me that you do have such information and indicate the source from which you derived such knowledge. Do you understand that?
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The WITNESS. Including newspaper?
Mr. BENNETT. Yes, general information that you have, yes.
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. BENNETT. Before we begin the questioning, I want to, pursuant to the procedures normally followed, give you some background about the investigation and your appearance here.
Pursuant to its authority under House rules 10 and 11 of the House of Representatives, the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight is engaged in a wide-ranging review of political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law.
Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105–139 summarizes the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and describes new matters which have arisen in the course of the investigation. Also, pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation.
All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues, or questions which have the tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence, are proper.
The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House of Representatives of the United States Congress on June 20th of this year. Committee Rule 20 outlines the ground rules for the deposition.
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The Majority and Minority committee counsels will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask questions after Majority counsel has finished.
After the Minority counsel has completed questioning you, a new round of questioning may begin. If there were any Members of Congress who were here today and wanted to ask you questions, they would be afforded an immediate opportunity to ask you any questions.
Pursuant to the committee's rules, you are allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights here at this deposition, and Mr. Stevens is here. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be stated for the record. You are represented by Mr. Stevens, not by Minority counsel, and you follow the instructions of Mr. Stevens with respect to responding to questions.
If you are instructed by Mr. Stevens to not answer a question or otherwise refuse to answer a question, we will then, either Majority and Minority counsel, will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If the counsels agree that the question is proper, you will be asked to answer the question. If the objection is not withdrawn, the Chairman or member designated by the Chairman may decide whether the objection was proper.
This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the committee, which means it may not be made public without the consent of the committee, pursuant to clause 2(k)(7) of House Rule 11. You are asked to abide by the rules of the House and not discuss with anyone other than your attorney this deposition and the issues and questions raised during this proceeding.
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No one is going to take this deposition, Ms. Foung, and give it to a newspaper reporter in terms of your responses. You ultimately will be called as a witness before the committee to publicly testify and at that time people can ask you questions after you publicly testify. But no one is going to have a copy of this deposition prior to that. Do you understand that?
Again, you have to answer.
The WITNESS. I do.
Mr. BENNETT. Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman. That would give you the opportunity if you think that Mr. Strickland, the court reporter, had made an error with respect to transcribing something, you would be given an opportunity to correct any error that you felt was in the transcript, and we will see that that is sent immediately to Mr. Stevens so you can have an opportunity to review it.
The transcript will be available for review by committee staff in terms of any errors anyone thinks has been made. That would be available to both Majority and Minority.
Substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for the requested changes. A letter requesting any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments must be signed by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments shall be included as an appendix to the transcript conditioned upon your signing the transcript.
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Do you understand everything we have gone over so far?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. STEVENS. If you don't, tell them and ask questions.
Mr. BENNETT. Do you understand generally what I have advised you thus far?
The WITNESS. I'm sorry?
Mr. BENNETT. Do you understand the matters about which I have advised you thus far?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Okay. I am starting to understand why these depositions are taking forever, if this preamble was read to every witness.
If you have any reasons to break, to talk to Mr. Stevens, you may.
In terms of ground rules, I will be asking you questions concerning the subject matter of the investigation. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Would you repeat that, please?
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Mr. BENNETT. I will be asking you questions concerning the subject matter of this investigation. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. BENNETT. Okay. If you don't understand a question, please say so and I will repeat it or rephrase it so that you understand the question.
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. BENNETT. Do you understand that you should tell me if you do not understand my question?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. BENNETT. Okay. The reporter will be taking down everything we say and will make a written record of the deposition. You must give verbal, audible answers because the court reporter cannot record a nod of the head or other gesture.
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. BENNETT. If you cannot hear me, say so—I doubt that will be a problem—and I will repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question to you. Do you understand that?
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The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. BENNETT. Please wait until I finish each question before answering, and I will wait until you finish your answer before I ask the next question. Do you understand that this will help the reporter make a clear record, because he cannot take down what we are both saying at the same time? Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Your testimony is being taken under oath as if we were in court, and if you answer a question it will be assumed that you understood the question and the answer was intended to be responsive to it. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Are you here voluntarily or here as a result of the subpoena? I believe the record should reflect that you have not been subpoenaed. I believe we filed a Notice of Deposition. So you are here pursuant to your understanding with your attorney, Mr. Stevens, correct?
The WITNESS. Say that again.
Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Stevens, we actually didn't subpoena your client. You have agreed to make your client available to us to answer questions; is that correct?
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Mr. STEVENS. I think that is accurate. We certainly anticipated that if we said no, that there would be a subpoena. But you're right, we agreed to do this voluntarily, and we appreciate everyone coming here to this office to accommodate the witness.
Mr. BENNETT. And I am sure that we were all glad to come here to Sacramento on such a beautiful day to be here. I speak for the Majority and I suspect I might speak for the Minority on that.
If you have any questions before we get started, please ask, Ms. Foung. Or you can talk to Mr. Stevens. Do you have any questions.
The WITNESS. Not at this time.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, Mr. Bennett. I do have some opening comments I would like to make.
Mr. BENNETT. That might be a good time, if you would like. Go ahead.
Mr. BALLEN. Ms. Foung, good morning.
The WITNESS. Good morning.
Mr. BALLEN. I represent the Democratic members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight. As you may know, there are two parties in the U.S. House of Representatives, the Republican Party that controls the House and the Democratic Party which does not.
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On our committee, every committee has representatives of both parties. The Majority is represented by the Republicans. Their Chairman is Dan Burton who is Mr. Bennett's boss. I represent the Minority on the committee, the Democrats. My boss is Representative Henry Waxman from Los Angeles, and the other committee Democrats. If you are familiar, some are from this area. Gary Condit is one of our Members. Tom Lantos from California. You may know some of them.
I want to emphasize to you that we represent the Democratic Members of Congress who sit on the Government Reform and Oversight Committee. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. I do now.
Mr. BALLEN. Okay. We don't represent the Democratic National Committee. We don't represent the White House. We simply represent the Members of the House of Representatives who are the Democratic members on the House committee.
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. BALLEN. You look somewhat perplexed, so I wanted to ask you.
The WITNESS. It is something more complicated than I can understand, but I basically understand what you are trying to say, yes.
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Mr. BALLEN. I want to let you know our view of this proceeding so that you do understand it, and start by apologizing because we feel you have given the statement and that should be sufficient for this committee. We do not feel this deposition today is necessary. And so we apologize for the inconvenience it has caused you, in advance.
And we also want to tell you, and Mr. Bennett is going to perhaps have to tell you that better, why we think you are being called today, because we are not sure. Mr. Dan Burton, who is the Chairman of the committee and who is Mr. Bennett's boss, has stated on the floor of the House of Representatives that he believes there to be a conspiracy possibly involving the Chinese Government to corrupt the American political system. And he also believes and he has stated that your brother, Charlie Trie, may be a part of this conspiracy.
In April of this year, Mr. Burton took to the floor of the House of Representatives and talked about your brother. He said your brother was part of a cast of characters who may have corrupted the American political system.
The WITNESS. What does that mean, ''cast of characters''?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, can I read it to you?
Mr. STEVENS. Ken, I don't think she understands the idiom ''cast of characters.'' It means one of a group of people, a group of individuals involved in something.
The WITNESS. Oh, okay. That was my only question.
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Mr. BALLEN. Let me just read you the exact quotes, not to take anything out of context.
Mr. Burton, Mr. Bennett's boss, said on the floor of the House of Representatives in Washington, ''Did foreign governments funnel foreign funds in the 1996 campaign? The American people have a right to know. How did a cast of characters''—individuals—''such as John Huang, Charlie Trie, Chinese arms dealer Wang Jun, purported Russian mob figure Gregori Loutchansky and convicted drug dealer Jorge Cabrera gain access to the highest levels of our government?''
The WITNESS. So in another word, they do not necessarily mean—I am just still trying to understand the ''cast of characters.''
Mr. BALLEN. Uh-huh.
The WITNESS. Does that mean they are just comparing my brother with the other characters, or is my brother part of all the characters that conspired something? Is that what that means?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, it's hard for me to answer that. I think the answer is both. Comparing your brother to the other characters——
The WITNESS. As well as he's a part of it?
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Mr. BALLEN. Yes, correct. I mean, I think that's the theory. I think the statement reflects that theory and those are serious allegations.
The WITNESS. This is news to me, yes.
Mr. BALLEN. That's why I wanted to tell you, so that you know the context of why you are being called here and what this is about.
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. STEVENS. Let me be clear that he is not saying that there is necessarily evidence of that. He is saying that that is one potential theory that will be reviewed. It may be that there is no evidence of it. He is outlining one thing that might be the subject of the investigation.
The WITNESS. Right.
Mr. BALLEN. Right. And I think what your lawyer told you is correct. It is just a theory, but it is a theory that Mr. Bennett's boss has said repeatedly over the past 9 months. So it is a theory that some people may want to try to prove.
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. BALLEN. I think it is also fair to inform you just what is meant—why you have to be coming back to Washington, what will happen to you in Washington. That there will be a hearing. There may be—there will be a large room with many Congressmen, over 44 Congressmen sitting there. You will be at a table in front of them. There may be television cameras. There may be news reporters. It is a public open hearing.
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And we just want you to know where this thing is going and our point of view on it, which is different from their point of view. And we will do our best to make this as simple for you and as painless as we possibly can.
The WITNESS. I hope so. Thank you.
Mr. BENNETT. Are there any further comments, Mr. Ballen?
Mr. BALLEN. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung, are you now terrified to testify, or are you still willing to testify here today?
The WITNESS. I will tell you what I know. That is all I can do.
Mr. BENNETT. I am certainly not here to try to frighten you here, Ms. Foung. The effort here is not to scare a witness or frighten a witness. It is merely to get facts.
We as lawyers are here—I am here representing the Majority. I don't just work for one individual. I'm with the Republican Majority and report to the Republican Majority. And we are here just to ask you questions of facts. No one has made an allegation against you, and the lawyers here at the table as lawyers are bound by canons of ethics in which we are to seek the truth as best we can.
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The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. BENNETT. And that ultimately is or should be the calling of lawyers. So no one is here to frighten you. I don't know what is going to happen when you come to Washington. There will be a hearing and there will be, hopefully, 44 Congressmen sitting in a room, although I suspect many of them will be going in and out of the room, from what I have observed, and you will be asked questions. We thought it was fair to see you first to understand the types of questions that will be asked of you. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Also, in the room here, along with the two lawyers for the Majority and the three lawyers for the Minority and your lawyer, is Mr. Charles Little, I mentioned earlier. I believe you met Mr. Little before; is that correct.
The WITNESS. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And Mr. Little as well as two other individuals at one point in time asked you basic questions and tried to get information as best they could from you; isn't that correct?
The WITNESS. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And you were very cooperative and answered their questions; is that correct?
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The WITNESS. I believe so.
Mr. BENNETT. Yes. And I want to compliment you on your level of cooperation and your candor in answering those questions.
Do you believe that Mr. Little or any of the other visitors were unfair to you in any way?
The WITNESS. I believe they were doing—probably doing their best job they can.
Mr. BENNETT. And do you think that they in any way abused you or treated you unfairly or unkindly in any way?
The WITNESS. They were very polite and very friendly.
Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Stevens, I believe you indicated to me previously that you don't believe your client's constitutional rights were violated in any way.
Mr. STEVENS. Well, I'm not having my deposition taken. But do you want me to state my full position on the record?
Mr. BENNETT. Just generally, if you will, on behalf of your clients.
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Mr. STEVENS. Based on my review of the situation, including numerous discussions with my client, I think it is fair to say at this point that she is not alleging that any of her constitutional rights were violated nor is she alleging that she was in any way abused or mistreated in the normal sense of those words by the attorneys or investigators who contacted her.
I will say, however, though, that she is concerned there were some statements made that in her mind were designed to cause her to believe that it was not necessary for her to consult counsel in order to protect her interests. She's not claiming that she was told unequivocally not to obtain counsel. And I know, based on my own experience, that statements of an ambiguous nature like this are frequently made and they are not necessarily improper. However, given her background, her cultural background, to a certain extent inability to comprehend all of the idioms of the English language, in an ideal world there would have been no statements about counsel at all.
For example, when she asked whether she should consult with counsel, one thing that she recalls being stated in response was, ''Why would you need counsel?'' Now, we all as lawyers might know that that is not technically an improper question, but when that question is posed to a person in Ms. Foung's position, it could have the effect of causing her to misunderstand the situation. Again in an ideal world, certain statements perhaps shouldn't have been made. But that expression of concern on her part about her treatment is a far cry from some of the things, frankly, I've heard and read about violating constitutional rights or abusing her or mistreating her or lying to her.
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But I did think it appropriate to put on the record that one area of concern, because it is one Ms. Foung has consistently expressed to me, although she understands the system and she does agree that all the lawyers and investigators on both sides in this situation are honorable people doing their best and no one at any time has tried to induce her to make things up or to implicate people unfairly or inappropriately.
Let me just make sure that what I said is an accurate summary of Ms. Foung's position.
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Thank you, Ms. Foung, and Mr. Stevens.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. With respect to your personal background, Ms. Foung, when were you born?
Answer. February 9th, 1952.
Question. And what is your social security number?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me; is this necessary to put her social security number on the record? Something maybe she—because we——
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Mr. BENNETT. I don't really care. You don't have to put your social security number on the record. That's fine.
Mr. BALLEN. This might be publicly released, this deposition.
The WITNESS. Could I have a piece of paper and pen?
Mr. BENNETT. Sure.
Mr. BALLEN. It is my understanding that your deposition could be publicly released and so, therefore, I don't see why we need to put the social security number on the record.
Mr. STEVENS. Can we go off the record for a second?
[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Let me just ask you this, you are a naturalized American citizen?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. What is the date of your citizenship?
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Answer. I couldn't remember. I believe sometime around 1980.
Question. When did you first come to this country?
Answer. 1973.
Question. And what is your educational background?
Answer. I graduated from high school in Taiwan. I had 52 units completed in the United States, major in business.
Question. At what university?
Answer. Solano College.
Question. Here in California?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And in terms of your background, I'll get into your family background, I'll ask more detailed questions on some matters perhaps later, but you have a brother and a sister; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
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Question. And are your mother and father both still living?
Answer. No. My father was dead.
Question. And your mother, her name is?
Answer. Do E-Fong.
Question. And where does she reside?
Answer. Little Rock.
Question. Arkansas?
Answer. Arkansas.
Question. And your two siblings, a brother and a sister, your sister's name is?
Answer. Why do we—Dai Lin.
Question. And does she have a last name in addition—I know that Lin is a family name. Is there a last name?
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Answer. Outlaw.
Question. And she lives in Virginia; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And then you have a brother who has previously been indicated as Mr. Charlie Trie?
Answer. Yah Lin Trie.
Question. And he goes by the name Charlie Trie; is that correct?
Answer. I call him Charlie—we call him Charlie.
Question. Okay. And are your brother and sister both naturalized American citizens?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And your mother is a naturalized American citizen?
Answer. That's correct.
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Question. Now, have you been politically active yourself, Ms. Foung?
Answer. No.
Question. And I would imagine after this experience you don't intend to be; is that correct? You have to answer. You are not politically active, are you, ma'am?
Answer. No.
Question. And prior to the matters about which we are going to have you testify in 1996, had you ever worked on any political campaigns?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Had you—and I want to go over the matter—the States in which you have resided, but have you been particularly active in contributing money to any political campaigns over the years?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. In terms of your residence, you have lived here in California for how long?
Answer. Since 1990.
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Question. Prior to 1990, where did you live? You don't need to name the specific address, but the State.
Answer. Texas.
Question. How long did you live in Texas?
Answer. Approximately 6 years.
Question. From approximately 1983 or 1984 until 1990?
Answer. I'm sorry?
Question. Just take your time. From——
Answer. From 1992 to—I mean '82 or '83—I couldn't remember.
Question. Let me go back. Maybe it would be easier as opposed to moving back, I will take you back to a date and let you move forward. Where did you first reside when you came here to the United States?
Answer. San Francisco.
Question. For how many years?
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Mr. STEVENS. Just give approximate, two or three? Four to five?
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. You don't need to be with any great specificity.
Answer. '73 to '7—'73 to '77. Approximately 4 years.
Question. You lived in the San Francisco area of California?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And then in 1977, where did you move?
Answer. Little Rock, Arkansas.
Question. And you went to Little Rock, Arkansas, approximately in 1977?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. How old were you at that time, approximately?
Answer. If I was born——
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Question. 25?
Answer [continuing]. In '52? Twenty-five.
Question. And what caused you to move to Little Rock, Arkansas?
Answer. A job transfer.
Question. And for whom were you working at the time?
Answer. USF&G, an insurance company. United States Fidelity and Guaranty.
Question. And you went to work there in 1977 in Little Rock, and how long did you stay in Arkansas?
Answer. Approximately 5, 6 years.
Question. From let us say 1977 until perhaps '83?
Answer. '82, '83.
Question. Were any other members of the family with you when you moved to Little Rock, Arkansas?
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Answer. What do you mean by that?
Question. I mean, did you move to Little Rock, Arkansas—my question is, did any other members of your family live in Little Rock, Arkansas, in addition to you?
Answer. Yes, my brother and my sister, both.
Question. Were they already living there or did they go with you to Little Rock, Arkansas?
Answer. They were already there.
Question. And how long had Dai Lin been living in Little Rock, Arkansas?
Answer. I don't remember. I don't know.
Question. Several years?
Answer. Yes.
Question. She had an existing business there; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. And her business, she owned a restaurant?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And your brother, Yah Lin Trie, Charlie Trie, how long had he been in Arkansas when you arrived there in 1977?
Answer. I don't really remember.
Question. He was working for your sister at the time; wasn't he?
Answer. At first, yes.
Question. And in what capacity did he work for your sister?
Mr. STEVENS. What did he do?
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. What did he do? I'm sorry; what did he do for your sister? She owned a restaurant. Dai Lin owned a restaurant in Little Rock, Arkansas; is that correct?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And your brother worked for Dai Lin in her restaurant; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And what did he do for her?
Answer. I don't really know. I believe everything related to whatever the restaurant needs.
Question. She owned the restaurant, though, and he worked for her; is that correct?
Mr. BALLEN. If you know.
The WITNESS. I believe so. I don't really know. I was in the insurance business, different than the restaurant business, so I didn't really know what they were doing.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. I understand.
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At some point in time during this 6 years that you were there in Little Rock, Arkansas, from '77 to '83, did there come a point in time when your brother established his own business?
Answer. I believe so.
Question. And what was the nature of that business? What was the business?
Answer. Restaurant.
Question. He opened up a restaurant separate from your sister's restaurant?
Answer. I don't really know. Seems like they were working together for a long time, and then I moved to Texas.
Question. I understand.
Answer. And then I didn't keep up with it.
Question. You moved to Texas around 1983?
Answer. '83, yes.
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Question. I guess my question is——
Answer. End of '83, uh-huh.
Question [continuing]. During this time from '77 to '83, do you know whether your brother took over your sister's restaurant or do you know whether he established a separate restaurant?
Answer. I really can't remember.
Question. At some point in time, though, he went into the restaurant business?
Answer. That's correct. That's correct.
Question. And up until the time you left Arkansas to move to Texas in 1983, he was operating a restaurant; is that correct?
Answer. He was working in a restaurant business. How was—what capacity, I don't know.
Question. Okay. But basically, then, that was his—you don't know what the nature of the ownership of the restaurant was or the details but——
Answer. No——
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Question [continuing]. But he was in the restaurant, running a restaurant?
Answer. That's right.
Question. That was what he did for a living was run a restaurant?
Answer. Yes.
Question. During that period of time, did you have occasion to meet Governor Clinton of Arkansas?
Answer. No.
Question. I'll ask you this later, but at some point in time your brother during that time period met Governor Clinton; is that correct, in Arkansas?
Answer. I personally don't know. I did find out later, yes, they were friends.
Question. And how did you find that out later?
Answer. The newspaper. It was on the newspaper all over.
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Question. I will get into more detail later but you at one time in March of last year actually had occasion to meet President Clinton; didn't you?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And you met him here at a fund-raising function here in California; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And at that point in time President Clinton made reference to your brother; isn't that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And exactly what did President Clinton say to you about his relationship with your brother back in the Little Rock, Arkansas, days?
Answer. He say my brother, Charlie Trie, is a close friend of his in two decades.
Question. A close friend for two decades?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. But during the time that you lived in Arkansas, you yourself did not meet Governor Clinton?
Answer. Never. Was he the Governor at that time?
Question. At some point in time. I believe he was the Attorney General and then was the Governor.
Answer. I wasn't familiar with him at all.
Question. And I gather that you yourself did not meet any members of the Clinton family during your 6 years in Arkansas?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Then chronologically moving forward, around 1983 you moved to Texas; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And you maintained contact with your mother who remained in Arkansas?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. And maintained contact with your brother who remained in Arkansas?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And with respect to your sister, she, Dai Lin, had had a restaurant in Arkansas, you said, when you arrived in 1977; is that right?
Answer. I think so.
Question. When did your sister move from Arkansas to Virginia?
Answer. I couldn't remember. It seems like '84 or '85. Something like that.
Question. At some point in time while you were still in Texas, your sister then moved from Arkansas to Virginia?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And your brother and mother remained in Arkansas?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. And your mother remains in Arkansas to this day?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And she lives in a home which is owned by your brother; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you have any ownership of that house in which she lives, you personally?
Answer. I don't believe so. We originally applied a loan together.
Question. ''We'' meaning your mother and you?
Answer. Me and my brother. But somewhere along the line, I think that the house was sold and then the person that bought it—I don't know exactly what happened, either default or something, and he has to buy back without my name, I believe.
Question. Who is ''he'' who bought it back?
Answer. My brother, Charlie—Yah Lin.
Question. So Yah Lin Trie at some time became the total owner of the house in which your mother now resides?
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Answer. I think so. I never did go into it to find out.
Question. When do you believe this approximately would have occurred when your name was taken off the title?
Answer. I couldn't remember.
Question. Okay. It was while you were in Texas or when you had moved back to California?
Answer. It was when I was in Texas.
Question. Sometime during the 1983–1990 time period?
Answer. Yes, but I don't remember—I don't know the details. I don't know what happened.
Question. I understand. Did you have any conversations with your brother where he explained to you what happened?
Answer. I don't think so—I don't remember.
Question. Directing your attention up until the time period of February of 1996, do you have any recollection of making any political contributions to any Federal political candidates, meaning candidates for Congress or the United States Senate or candidates for President, for President Clinton? Up until February of 1996, do you recall making any political contributions?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. And what contributions would they have been, ma'am?
Answer. I believe there was a check written to DNC.
Question. The Democratic National Committee?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. And when would that check have been written? Approximately?
Answer. February.
Question. February of 1996?
Answer. February 1996.
Question. I'm going to get to that ma'am, we are going to do that in a second. I'm sorry if you didn't understand my question. That is the $12,500 check.
Mr. BALLEN. Before.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. I am trying to get before that, prior to the $12,500 check to the Democratic National Committee in February of 1996, before that, before that date, do you recall making any political contributions to President Clinton or the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. I cannot remember.
Question. Do you recall making any contributions to any Federal political candidates for the U.S. Senate or for Congress in Texas or in Arkansas or in any other State?
Answer. I can't—I can't recall.
Question. Now, then, directing your attention to February of 1996, I will show you what has been previously marked as MF–1, your initials, dash, 1.
[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of deposition on p. 59.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
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Question. Looking at that exhibit drawn on your bank account, which is the Travis Federal Credit Union; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And do you recognize—I know that that is a faded copy—your signature on that check and do you recognize the copy of that check?
Answer. Yes, that's my signature.
Question. And in fact—and that is, in fact, a copy of a check which you prepared on February 18, 1996, to the Democratic National Committee, or as you have noted on the check, paid to the order of the DNC; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Now, with respect to that check, what were the circumstances leading up to your preparation of that check? As a matter of fact, why don't we—in order to have everything in front of you, let me have, if I can, two more exhibits, please.
I'm going to show you—place in front of you and Mr. Stevens, your attorney, MF–2.
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[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–2 was marked for identification.]
Mr. STEVENS. Is it all right if I mark exhibit numbers on these copies?
Mr. BENNETT. Go right ahead. And MF–3.
[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–3 was marked for identification.]
Mr. BALLEN. Dick, ours are not marked, so if you could indicate which is going to be which.
Mr. BENNETT. For the record, Ken, the check, the $12,500 check is MF–1. The packet of material from the Amerasia Bank and the $5,000 cashier's check payable back to Ms. Foung is MF–2. And then the deposited cashier's checks, the second packet you just got, is MF–3.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. If you want to look at those, take your time, I want to go through the scenario with those exhibits in front of you in terms of the circumstances of your first contribution to the Democratic National Committee.
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You have indicated that to your knowledge—and if I'm not stating this correctly, please correct me—from what I gather this is the very first time you had ever prepared a check to the Democratic National Committee; is that correct? To your knowledge?
Answer. To my knowledge, yes.
Question. And what were the circumstances giving rise and causing you to prepare this check? Why did you write this check?
Answer. Because my brother called me.
Question. Your brother, Charlie Trie?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Approximately when did he call you and where was he when he called you?
Answer. I couldn't remember—I don't know exactly the time. I will have to guess somewhere around the check written time.
Question. Somewhere around the date of the check, February 18, 1996?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. Was he overseas at that time?
Answer. I believe so. I was under the impression he was.
Question. And what caused you to believe that he was overseas?
Answer. Because he said he couldn't make it to meet a deadline of a contribution.
Question. He—I'm sorry, if I misunderstood what you said, correct me. But your brother, Charlie Trie, said to you that he could not make a deadline for a contribution?
Answer. Something like that.
Question. And where was the contribution to be sent, this $25,500 to the DNC?
Answer. That I don't remember. I must jot down the address.
Question. Do you know what the deadline was he was referring to?
Answer. No, I didn't ask.
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Question. Did you have any knowledge of a dinner right around that time period that was to be held at the Hay-Adams Hotel in Washington, D.C.?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Did he talk to you about that?
Answer. No, he didn't.
Question. And basically you prepared this check at his request?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did he indicate to you how—did he indicate to you that you were to be reimbursed for writing this check?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And did he indicate to you how he was going to reimburse you?
Answer. I don't remember. I don't remember.
Question. But again we'll go through the exhibits, looking at the exhibits before you, you were reimbursed almost immediately for your check; isn't that correct?
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Answer. According to the date, yes.
Question. Within a matter of a few days, you got the money back from your brother?
Answer. Four or five days, yes.
Question. Now, do you recall whether you mailed this check or what happened to this $12,500 check made payable to the DNC once you prepared it? Where did it go? My question is, did someone come by and pick the check up at your home?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you put it in the mail?
Answer. No.
Question. Where did you send it?
Answer. I sent it to Washington, D.C., somewhere by—I couldn't remember if it was by Federal Express or regular mail or Federal express mail, I couldn't remember.
Question. But you sent it to whatever address your brother gave you; I gather?
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Answer. That's correct.
Question. And do you recall what the address was?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Do you recall whether or not it was the address of the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. I don't even know what their address.
Question. So you don't know the mechanics of how this came into the possession and was cashed by the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. No.
Question. You just know that you sent it to an address designated by your brother?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Now, did you know an individual named Antonio Pan?
Answer. No, I don't.
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Question. Have you ever met an individual named Antonio Pan?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Do you have any personal knowledge of the involvement of Mr. Antonio Pan in forwarding money to you in covering this check?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. And we'll go into the matter of Mr. Landon—you have a close personal friend, Mr. Joseph Landon; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And you and Mr. Landon reside together; is that correct? I don't need to get into your personal life. Strike that question.
He is a close personal friend of yours; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And, again, I don't want to get into your personal life, and I apologize for that. Mr. Landon at some point in time this same day also wrote out a $12,500 check; is that right?
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Answer. I believe so.
Question. Did you have discussions with Mr. Landon concerning the preparation of a $12,500 check?
Answer. I might have. Must be very brief because I couldn't remember what was said.
Question. Do you know if your brother spoke to Joe Landon about a $12,500 check?
Answer. No.
Question. You don't remember or you don't know that he spoke with him?
Answer. I know he didn't spoke to him.
Question. So it could be correct, would it not, that if Mr. Landon prepared a similar $12,500 check, as did you, to the Democratic National Committee, it would have been at your request pursuant to the discussion you had with your brother?
Answer. Must be.
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Question. Okay. Let me show you that check.
[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–4 was marked for identification.]
[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–5 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Looking at now Exhibits MF–4 and MF–5, you see there is Mr. Landon's check I think a day later than your check.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, Dick, I just missed what you said.
Mr. BENNETT. I am sorry, excuse me.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Showing you Exhibits MF–4 and MF–5, you will see that Mr. Landon's check is also made out to the Democratic National Committee for $12,500. Do you see that?
Answer. Yes, do I.
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Question. And, in fact, that was a result of a conversation that you had with him, based on your conversation with your brother; isn't that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And, in fact, Mr. Landon—you advised Mr. Landon that both you and he were going to be reimbursed for these checks and you were doing this as a favor for your brother; isn't that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And in fact, then looking at MF–2 and MF–5, they are copies of cashier's checks which came back to you and Mr. Landon 3 days later, isn't that correct? From the Amerasia Bank in New York?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And if I'm wrong correct me, but three of the five—there are five $5,000 cashier's checks; isn't that correct? If you want to take a minute, look at Exhibits MF–2 and MF–5. Just take your time.
Answer. Okay. MF–2, we have three and MF–5 we have two.
Question. Meaning that MF–2, there are three cashier's checks to you each for $5,000, totaling $15,000; is that correct?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And MF–5, there are two $5,000 cashier's checks made payable to Mr. Landon; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And, in fact, that represents a total of $25,000 totally reimbursing both of you for the checks you had written out to the Democratic National Committee a few days earlier; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Now, how did it turn out? Did Mr. Landon get his entire $12,500 back?
Answer. I believe so.
Question. And how do you believe that he got his money back?
Answer. I must gave him $2,500.
Question. Actually, to help you here, Ms. Foung, let me show what you has been marked as MF–1A, which is a supplement to Exhibit 1 which I think will be of some assistance to you.
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[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–1A was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. If you look at MF–1A, you will note there in terms of a $2,500 withdrawal—again, correct me if I am wrong, Ms. Foung, but it appears that of the $15,000 you received back after depositing those checks, you took $2,500 out to give to Mr. Landon, in addition to his $10,000 in cashier's checks; is that correct?
Answer. It appears to be.
Question. As you testify now, that is your recollection, looking at these documents in terms of what happened; is that right?
Answer. Exactly, because I couldn't remember what happened.
Question. I understand. I understand. I understand.
Did you have any contacts with any officials of the Democratic National Committee at the time that you wrote these checks——
Answer. No.
Question [continuing]. You wrote the check?
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Answer. No, sir.
Question. To your knowledge, did Mr. Landon have any contact with any representatives of the Democratic National Committee at the time he wrote the check?
Answer. I really cannot speak for him, but to the best of my knowledge, no.
Question. I understand. Okay. And do you know the particular fund-raising event for which these checks were prepared?
Answer. No.
Question. And you did not attend any events in connection with these checks; is that correct?
Answer. No.
Question. It was purely at the request of your brother that these checks were prepared?
Answer. Yes.
Question. To your knowledge, had Mr. Landon ever made any contributions himself to the Democratic National Committee prior to this check, reflected by exhibit MF–4?
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Answer. I don't know.
Question. Does Mr. Landon know your brother, Charlie Trie?
Answer. He met my brother a couple of times briefly.
Question. How long have you and Mr. Landon known each other?
Answer. Possibly 4 years.
Question. And during those 4 years, how many times do you believe Mr. Landon has met your brother?
Answer. Two times for sure. Maybe three.
Question. To your knowledge, does Mr. Landon know the individual, Antonio Pan?
Answer. Not as I know of.
Question. Let me ask you this, Ms. Foung, have you ever heard of a group in Arkansas called the Lippo Group?
Answer. Never heard of it.
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Question. Prior——
Answer. I do now.
Question. I think a lot of people have heard of the Lippo Group now, but prior to the matters in the newspaper did you have any knowledge of the individuals at the Lippo Group in Arkansas?
Answer. No.
Question. And as we speak, you have never met Antonio Pan?
Answer. Not as I know of.
Mr. BALLEN. Just to clarify your question was, ''Do you have any knowledge of the Lippo Group in Arkansas?'' Do you have any knowledge of the Lippo Group at all anywhere?
The WITNESS. No, sir.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you.
Mr. BENNETT. We don't have a process of rotating questions here, but I thank counsel for the clarification on that. I should have followed up.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. You don't have any knowledge of Antonio Pan anywhere up until today other than perhaps having seen his name in the newspaper; is that correct?
Answer. Until his name was brought up to me.
Question. Did your brother explain to you where the $25,000 came from that reimbursed you and Mr. Landon?
Answer. I believe—he never explained, but I believe it was his money.
Question. In fact, there are documents—just so you understand, because I want to make sure that you have the benefit of as many facts as we can give you so you understand, the committee has documents before it showing that the $25,000, in fact, came from an individual named Antonio Pan, and an account in New York.
Would you have any explanation for why Mr. Pan would have been giving you and Mr. Landon the $25,000 back?
Answer. I really never thought about that.
Question. Did your brother, Charlie Trie, ever represent to you that he, Charlie Trie, had repaid the $25,000 to you and Mr. Landon?
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Answer. Would you please repeat that question?
Question. Did your brother, Charlie Trie, ever indicate to you that the repayment of the $25,000 came from him, Charlie Trie?
Answer. I couldn't remember exact conversations, but I was under the impression, yes.
Question. That he, Charlie Trie, your brother, had in fact paid you the $25,000?
Mr. STEVENS. When you say ''paid,'' are you talking about physically being the conduit of the money or being the source of the money?
Mr. BENNETT. Being the source of the money.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. To your knowledge, your impression was that your brother had repaid the $25,000?
Answer. Yes, yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Just one second.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Directing your attention to approximately a month later, I think it is in March of 1996, do you recall attending—we talked about this a little bit earlier in the morning—a political fund-raising event here in California attended by President Clinton?
Answer. Would you be more specific?
Question. Sure.
Answer. Are we talking about the one that I mentioned earlier?
Question. Yes, yes, in fact, specifically you attended a political fund-raising event in Hillsborough, California. Do you recall that?
Answer. I recall, but at the time I didn't know it was fund-raising.
Question. I want to direct your attention to that event, if I can. With respect to the—an event in March of 1996, directing your attention to that event, first, you attended an event in Hillsborough, California, in March of 1996 at which Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco and President Clinton were in attendance; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
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Question. And, in fact, you met President Clinton at that time; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And that's the very first time you'd ever met President Clinton?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. When you went to that event, did you know that it was a political fund-raiser?
Answer. I didn't.
Question. What were the circumstances surrounding your attendance at that event?
Answer. Because my brother called me, said——
Question. Again, do you know where your brother was when he called you?
Answer. I don't.
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Question. Do you believe it was overseas?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. If I can just step back for a second, Ms. Foung, I gather that your brother travels overseas a great deal?
Answer. He spends the majority of his time overseas. That's the way I understood.
Question. And would he be in Taiwan or China; do you know? I'm going to get into the details later of where he is now, but it is your belief that he called either from Taiwan or China or wherever overseas?
Answer. Yes.
Question. I will rephrase the question. You don't know specifically where he was when he called you in March of 1996; do you?
Answer. I couldn't remember.
Question. It's your impression that he was overseas but you don't know in which country he might have been?
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Answer. No.
Question. But it was your impression that he was overseas?
Answer. I believe so.
Question. And what did he say with respect to attendance at this event?
Answer. Say that again.
Question. What did your brother say to you about this event that he wanted you to attend?
Answer. He was just asking me if I would go to a dinner function, that Mr. Clinton will be there, that was in San Francisco.
Question. And as to that event, you weren't asked to spend any money?
Answer. No.
Question. And how did you get to the event? How did you go to Hillsborough?
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Answer. We drove.
Question. And it is a drive—from here in the Sacramento area, I guess it is a drive of approximately an hour and a half or 2 hours?
Answer. From where I live to Hillsborough, how far is that? About 50 miles or something like that; 50, 60 miles.
Question. And who drove you?
Answer. Joe Landon.
Question. Joe Landon. Anybody else besides you and Mr. Landon travel in the car?
Answer. No.
Question. And did Mr. Landon actually attend the event?
Answer. No.
Question. Where did Mr. Landon stay? He, in fact, remained in the car while you went to the event; is that right?
Answer. That's correct.
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Question. How did you actually get to the event? Did Mr. Landon drive you right to the event or did you meet another group of people and attend the event with a group of people?
Answer. We were supposed to—the instruction was to park at the high school parking lot. There is a bus to transport all the guests to the house.
Question. And that was in Hillsborough?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. And you went to the local high school in Hillsborough, Burlingame High School?
Answer. Yes, few blocks away from the house.
Mr. BENNETT. For the record, my nephew attended that high school, so I'm somewhat familiar with the area.
Mr. BALLEN. I was wondering how you knew the geography.
Mr. BENNETT. I don't want counsel to think I knew all the details. It doesn't matter much, but my sister-in-law lives in Hillsborough and I think I know the high school where he went. But in any event, the record should reflect that one of the few times in the deposition the counsel are all laughing together in a matter, which is a healthy sign I think.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. You went to the local high school and a bus took a group of people to this private party; is that right?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And at some point in time did you meet an individual there named John Huang?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Had you met Mr. Huang before?
Answer. No.
Question. And what were the circumstances under which you met him? Did he come up and introduce himself to you? Or what were the circumstances?
Answer. He called me prior to the function to ask me to give him some personal information such as name, address, social security, so it was strictly for security clearance.
Question. And did he indicate to you at that time—how did he know you were going to attend the event?
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Mr. STEVENS. If he said.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. If he said. My question—I will rephrase it. My question is, Mr. Huang, an individual named John Huang called you prior to the event?
Answer. Right.
Question. And this would have been after your brother, Charlie Trie, asked you to attend the event?
Answer. That's right.
Question. Did Mr. Huang call indicating that he had spoken to your brother, Charlie Trie, and therefore knew you were going to attend the event?
Answer. He must.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me; do you recall?
Mr. BENNETT. Counsel, I don't mind occasionally clarifying, but why don't I finish the train and you will be free to follow up on it.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. I gather Mr. Huang must have known from some source, either your brother or some source, that you were going to attend the event.
Answer. I assume so.
Question. You didn't know this man, John Huang, and he calls you for information because you are going to attend the event?
Answer. Yes, somebody must know I was attending to get my security clearance.
Question. And then on that evening in March of 1996—it was an evening event; wasn't it?
Answer. It was evening, about 6 o'clock.
Question. Did you meet Mr. Huang at that time?
Answer. We met outside the bus.
Question. At the high school parking lot?
Answer. The parking lot, yes.
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Question. And then you went to the event on a bus, and both you and Mr. Huang were on the bus together?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. And we'll get back to the details of the event.
Have you seen John Huang since that particular night?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you spoken with John Huang since that night?
Answer. I vaguely remember he called me one more time to ask me if I would attend a function in San Francisco. I said no.
Question. And when would that have been?
Answer. I don't remember.
Question. It would have been prior to the re-election of President Clinton last November?
Answer. I couldn't remember, but I believe—I believe so.
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Question. Apart from that one other telephone call from John Huang, is it fair to say that the only time you have met or spoken with John Huang, except for that one additional telephone call, would have been on this particular night in March—strike that.
Apart from John Huang calling you on the telephone and then being with you on that evening in March of 1996, the only other contact you have had with Mr. Huang is one other time when he called you on the telephone?
Answer. Yes.
Question. You have not spoken with him since?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. The only time you have ever seen him face-to-face would have been on this particular evening in March of 1996?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Now, directing your attention to that particular evening in March of 1996, what were the circumstances giving rise to your actually meeting and speaking with President Clinton? Did someone introduce you to him?
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Answer. No, everybody get in line to take a picture with him.
Question. In the trade it is called a photo op.
Answer. Okay.
Question. A photo op. Okay?
And when you met him, what gave rise to his saying to you, as I think you indicated earlier, that Charlie Trie—your brother Charlie Trie has been my best friend for two decades? How did that comment come up?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, that's not what she testified. She said ''close friend.'' Not best friend.
Mr. BENNETT. Whatever she said, close friend. Charlie Trie has been my close friend for two decades.
Mr. STEVENS. My notes have her saying that he was, quote, ''A close friend for two decades,'' closed quote.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Going by your counsel's—and if I misrepresented I apologize—Charlie Trie has been a close friend for two decades, what caused him to make that comment? Did someone say, this is Charlie Trie's sister?
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Answer. Yes, something like that. Somebody must——
Question. I understand. As best you remember, someone let the President know that you were Charlie Trie's sister?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And as a result of that, he made that comment?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. Did he talk to you at any length at all? How long did you talk with President Clinton?
Answer. I think that was it.
Question. And you had your picture taken with him?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Were there any follow-up notes from President Clinton when you—strike that.
I assume you ultimately got a copy of that photograph, correct?
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Answer. No, I didn't.
Question. You did not?
Answer. Huh-uh.
Question. Off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. You indicated that you never actually got the photograph of you with the President?
Answer. No, I never did.
Question. And I gather, then, that you have not spoken with President Clinton since that time?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you spoken with any member of the President's family since that time?
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Answer. No.
Question. And you have no personal relationship with any member of the Clinton family, correct?
Answer. No, sir.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, can I just follow up one question there? Clarification?
Mr. BENNETT. Yes, I think in the spirit of comity, I think generally we have the questions of the Majority and Minority, but I don't have any objection to asking a quick question just to move it along.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you very much.
You asked her if she had any contact with any member of the President's family since that time. And I wanted to ask, have you ever had any, other than meeting President Clinton on this one occasion, have you had any contact with him or his family?
The WITNESS. No.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
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Question. Fair question. Thank you, Mr. Ballen. Thank you, Ken.
Moving on, then—one second, I'm sorry.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Mr. Little was reminding me of one matter. At some point in time did someone explain to you why you were there at the March 1996 event? At some point in time was it explained to you that it was a fund-raising event for the President and his reelection?
Answer. I couldn't remember. Fund-raising—I cannot understand that at all. So it wasn't important to me to know. I only remember I was meeting the President. That's all I can remember. It was exciting.
Question. Do you recall—I will follow up with another question. Do you recall Mayor Brown of San Francisco being there?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you get your picture taken with Mayor Brown?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Was there any discussion about needing to attend the fund-raiser to show support for Mayor Brown or for President Clinton?
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Answer. I would assume if I was asked to attend a function, it will be showing support. I would assume that.
Mr. STEVENS. Well, he doesn't want you to assume. First, he wants you to tell him what you remember people saying to you.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Did anyone talk to you about needing to have people in attendance for this event for Mayor Brown and for President Clinton?
Answer. My brother might have said he would like to be there personally; since he couldn't, would I be there on his behalf.
Question. But was there a discussion about trying to make sure there were people in attendance, that the more people, the better, was there that kind of conversation?
Answer. I couldn't remember exactly.
Question. All right.
Now, directing your attention to August of 1996.
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[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–6 was marked for identification.]
[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–7 was marked for identification.]
[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–8 was marked for identification.]
Mr. BENNETT. We can go off the record for a minute to help counsel with numbers.
[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Directing your attention to August of 1996, I placed before you what has been marked as deposition Exhibit MF–6, which is, in fact, a copy of a $10,000 check made payable to the Birthday Victory Trust.
Do you see that, Ms. Foung?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And, in fact, with respect to that check, did you attend any particular function in connection with that check?
Answer. No.
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Question. And that check was prepared, again, at the request of your brother, Charlie Trie; is that right?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And, once again, you were immediately reimbursed for that $10,000; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Now, going back to the specifics, approximately how soon prior to your preparing that check did you speak with your brother?
Answer. I couldn't remember. Maybe the—the same day or the day before, maybe a couple days before.
Question. And, again, he called you on the telephone?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know where he was calling from?
Answer. No, I don't.
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Question. Do you believe he was calling from overseas?
Answer. I—I believe so, yes.
Question. But you don't know what country he was calling from?
Answer. No.
Question. And exactly what was the nature of the conversation you had with your brother at that time?
Answer. It was the same thing. That he needed a check to be in by a certain day; that he couldn't do it himself.
Question. He could not write the check himself and needed someone else to write the check?
Answer. Yeah, because he wasn't able to.
Question. And did he indicate how soon this event was going to take place in connection with this check?
Answer. No.
Question. Did he make any reference to any deadline that he had to meet?
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Answer. Not in the exact words, but I was under the impression it has to be in by a certain date.
Question. And did he ask you to do this immediately?
Answer. Must be. Something like that.
Question. And what was the understanding you had in terms of how quickly you were going to be reimbursed?
Answer. I'm sorry?
Question. What was your understanding as to how quickly you were going to be reimbursed for this $10,000 check?
Answer. Was I or——
Question. Yes, you indicated earlier that your brother indicated that he was going to, as he had in February, see that you got repaid for this; correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what was your understanding as to how you were going to get repaid?
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Answer. No.
Question. Do you know how quickly he was going to do it?
Answer. Has to be—has to be fast enough to cover the check.
Question. Because you didn't have the money in your account to cover that check?
Answer. I guess not.
Question. Now, I put these exhibits in front of you so you could look at them. MF–6 is the check itself for $10,000.
Do you know how that check was delivered? Actually, strike that.
First of all, you note on the bottom left-hand corner there is the word ''Federal'' written on that check?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you recall why the word ''Federal'' is written on the check?
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Answer. My brother told me to put it there.
Question. In other words, in addition to writing the $10,000 check out, you were told to put ''Federal'' on the check? On the bottom left-hand corner?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And that was at the request of your brother?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And do you know how this check was delivered or to whom it was delivered?
Answer. I couldn't remember. Again, could be Federal Express or something. I don't know.
Question. And I gather you don't recall exactly where you sent it; is that correct?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Would you have sent it wherever your brother told you to send it?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And apart from speaking with your brother, did you have any involvement or discussion with anyone else in connection with the Birthday Victory Trust? Did you talk to the people who were organizing the event, for example?
Answer. No.
Question. So wherever you sent it, it would have been at the instructions of your brother?
Answer. Yes.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me; could I ask one follow-up question, please.
Mr. BENNETT. Sure. By the way, just for the record on this, until certain protocols are established, I don't want my willingness to allow Mr. Ballen to ask questions to in any way waive procedures that we may have established in previous depositions. But in the spirit of comity—C-O-M-I-T-Y, not C-O-M-E-D-Y, as Congress Waxman would sometimes suggest—I have no objection to move this along to allow Mr. Ballen to quickly interject a question. Go ahead.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Bennett.
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You indicated when your brother talked to you that he said he wasn't able to write the check himself? Did he tell you why?
The WITNESS. Because he was traveling.
Mr. BALLEN. Okay. And that's why you believed he was overseas?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. BALLEN. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. BENNETT. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Continuing on.
With respect to the repayment of this money, looking at MF–7, in fact there was a wire transfer, was there not, of money into your account at the Travis Federal Credit Union where a $10,000 deposit was made into your account almost the next day; is that correct?
Answer. It appears to be.
Question. And do you know the source of that $10,000 wire?
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Answer. No.
Question. Do you know an individual named Ng Lap Seng, also known as Mr. Wu?
Answer. No.
Question. I'll get back to that in a minute.
Do you recall any discussion about the money going back into your account, being wired back into your account the next day?
Answer. What do you mean by ''discussion''?
Question. Did anyone say to you: By the way, the wire was made today?
Answer. No.
Question. How did you find out that—unlike the February event where you received cashier's checks——
Answer. Oh, I see what you are saying.
Question [continuing]. Here you were reimbursed not by cashier's checks; you were reimbursed by a wire.
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Answer. That's correct.
Question. And did anyone talk to you about the wire transfer going into your account?
Answer. I think my brother asked my account number to prepare the money to wire to my account. Now, what I usually do is call the bank to verify, to make sure the check is covered. That was my only concern.
Question. And, in fact, you called your bank to make sure that it had, in fact, been deposited; is that right?
Answer. That's what I normally do if I am expecting something, I normally call.
Question. And then looking at deposition Exhibit MF–8, in fact, that reflects both the wire transfer on August 15, 1996, into your account, and the debiting of your account on August 16 of $10,000; is that correct?
Answer. It appears to be, according to this.
Question. So this document reflects the transmission of funds in and out of your account with respect to that $10,000 check to the President's birthday party; is that correct—the Birthday Victory Trust; is that correct?
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Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. I'm sorry; you didn't understand my question?
Answer. What are you asking?
Question. These two documents, MF–7 and MF–8, reflect the money going into your account and immediately out of your account at the request of your brother to cover this check, Birthday Victory Trust of $10,000; is that correct? To cover this check for the Birthday Victory Trust?
Answer. Cover the check I wrote?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did you have any contacts with any other individual, apart from your brother, with respect to this $10,000 check and the transmission into your account the day before, or contemporaneous, the wire transfer, did you have any discussions with anybody else other than your brother, Charlie Trie, with respect to that matter?
Answer. No.
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Question. And I don't want to get into the discussions you have had with your attorney subsequent to it, but with respect to that transaction, did you have any discussions with anyone else after you engaged in that transaction?
Answer. No.
Question. I'll get to the matter of Judd Best and the Democratic National Committee later, but around the time of the event——
Answer. No.
Question [continuing]. You didn't talk to anyone from the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you talk about this matter with anyone in connection with the reelection campaign of President Clinton?
Answer. I don't believe I talked to anyone at all.
Question. And were you aware of the particular fund-raising event to which this related?
Answer. No, I assume it was the birthday party; wasn't it?
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Question. That's right. And you don't know if anyone went in your place or anything else, correct?
Answer. Not as I know of.
Question. And, certainly, this event actually was in New York. You did not travel to New York to attend this yourself?
Answer. No.
Question. Now, Ms. Foung, let me ask you something. Have you ever met Senator Tom Daschle, a United States Senator?
Answer. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Senator Daschle, for the record, is from what State?
Mr. BALLEN. South Dakota.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Have you ever been to South Dakota?
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Answer. No.
Question. Has anyone ever spoken to you about Senator Tom Daschle?
Answer. Not as I can remember.
Question. Do you know—your mother's name is E-Fong Do Trie; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Am I pronouncing that correctly?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. To your knowledge, do you know whether or not your mother knows Senator Tom Daschle?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Have you ever heard your mother mention Senator Tom Daschle?
Answer. No.
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Question. The records of the Federal Elections Commission reflect that you contributed $1,000—reflect that there were two $1,000 checks written by you to Senator Tom Daschle on June 26th, 1995. Do you have any knowledge or recollection of writing one or two $1,000 checks to Senator Tom Daschle in June of 1995?
Answer. I personally couldn't remember I did or I didn't.
Question. Is it your belief that you would have written—according to the records of the Federal Elections Commission, reviewed by the committee—again, I'm not trying to accuse you of some impropriety, I am just trying to get to the facts. I don't know if somebody has used your name or whatever, that is why I am asking—that the records of the Federal Elections Commission reflect that there were two checks, each for $1,000, made payable to Senator Tom Daschle, both of them dated June 26th, 1995. Do you have any recollection of that?
Answer. I cannot remember, same thing like I couldn't remember all those. How come they didn't get the bank records?
Question. I'm going to get into that in a minute. Maybe your counsel can follow up. I don't have reason to believe that you knew about this. Frankly, I believe someone used your name, but I am just trying to get to the facts.
Mr. BENNETT. And the records also reflect one check from the mother, correct? Off the record.
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[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. The records reviewed by the committee also reflect that your mother wrote a $1,000 check. E-Fong Do Trie is listed as having contributed $1,000 to Senator Tom Daschle also on June 26th, 1995.
Do you have any recollection of talking with your mother about making contributions to Senator Tom Daschle?
Answer. No.
Question. Perhaps I can, in the interest of time—well, let me ask you this: Do you recall ever being solicited by anybody to make a contribution to Senator Daschle?
Answer. I couldn't remember.
Question. Okay. Maybe in the interest of time, Ms. Foung, I'll just ask that your attorney, at your convenience, check to see if you have any canceled checks or recollection of having made a contribution to Senator Daschle. And in the event that the answer is in the affirmative, your counsel can advise me. Does that sound appropriate?
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Mr. STEVENS. Can we go off the record for a second?
Mr. BENNETT. Sure, off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Ms. Foung, I understand that you don't recall ever making those contributions, and for the record, I suggest that—I understand that. It is my belief, as I ask you these questions, that someone else used your name and that you did not in fact make these. I represent that to be my impression based on the review of FEC records.
But the purpose of this deposition is not for me to state my opinion, but to try to find out what knowledge you have. And your attorney, Mr. Stevens, has indicated that he will see if you have any records or canceled checks that will in any way support the records of the Federal Elections Commission with respect to such donations.
Do you understand that?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And I appreciate again, as always, your high level of cooperation with the committee on this matter.
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And again, just for purposes of the record, you don't recall having discussions with anyone from the Democratic National Committee concerning any contributions to Senator Tom Daschle of South Dakota; do you?
Answer. No.
Question. Who is Jim Outlaw?
Answer. My brother-in-law.
Question. And Dai Lin Outlaw is your sister; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. She is the sister who resides in Virginia?
Answer. Yes.
Question. She is your only sister?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of your brother-in-law, Jim Outlaw, or your sister, Dai Lin Outlaw, giving $2,000, each of them, to Senator Daschle that same day, June 26th, 1995?
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Answer. I don't know.
Question. So you have no knowledge at all whether or not they know Senator Daschle?
Answer. No.
Question. You have never had any discussions with your mother or—strike that.
Have you ever had any discussions with your mother or your sister or your brother-in-law concerning Senator Tom Daschle?
Answer. No.
Question. Who is Denise Outlaw?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. She is not a relation of Jim Outlaw or Dai Lin Outlaw?
Answer. I don't know.
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Question. Do Jim and Dai Lin have any children?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what are the names of the children?
Answer. Michael and Elaine.
Question. Do you know an individual named George Chu?
Answer. No.
Question. According to our review, he is an individual who purportedly went to school with your brother in Taiwan. But you don't have any knowledge of him?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any familiarity with a company known as Da Tung?
Answer. How do you spell that?
Question. D-A and then T-U-N-G.
Answer. Yes.
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Question. And what knowledge do you have of that company?
Answer. That's a very big company that makes rice maker. I use their rice maker, cooker.
Question. That is located where?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Is it here in California, though?
Answer. I know they have a big factory in Taiwan. I don't know about here. They must have some distributor or something.
Question. Do you know what contacts your brother has with that company?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know whether your brother has any business with that company?
Answer. I don't know.
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Question. Do you know an individual named Ernie Greene?
Answer. No.
Question. I'm going to go down a list of companies in terms of information you may or may not have, and I want you to take your time on this. I can assure you, Ms. Foung, the effort is to not trick you here. I am just trying to get facts in terms of if you have any knowledge of these companies or individuals?
Answer. Okay.
Question. And if, for example, on reflection during this time period before you get to review your transcript, if you may recall a connection, please let Mr. Stevens know if you can't recall now and subsequently you do.
Answer. Okay.
Question. Chy Corporation. Do you have knowledge of the Chy Corporation?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know an individual named Tony Hsu, H-S-U?
Answer. No.
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Question. Have you ever heard your brother mention Tony Hsu?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know an individual named David Mercer?
Answer. No.
Question. Or Ari Swiller?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know an individual named Martha Shoffner?
Answer. No. Wait, wait, wait.
Question. Let me give you some background on this. It may help.
According to the information we have at the committee, your brother had an assistant at the Daihatsu Corporation and her name was Martha Shoffner. Does that ring a bell with you?
Answer. It could be. Where does she work?
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Question. She did at one time work at the Daihatsu Corporation, until your brother went to Washington in August of 1994.
Answer. I cannot be certain.
Question. What about a woman named Keshi Zhan?
Answer. No.
Question. Martha Shoffner still now lives in Arkansas. Again, you don't have any recollection of Martha Shoffner?
Answer. Did she ever work in Washington?
Question. No, according to our information she's still in Arkansas.
Answer. Then I don't.
[Counsels confer.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Mr. Wilson advises me she might have. I don't know. Suffice it to say, you don't have any knowledge of Ms. Shoffner and don't recall meeting her?
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Answer. No.
Question. What about an individual named Lorin Fleming who was the head of an electronics company in Arkansas and an acquaintance of your brother, according to our information.
Answer. Yes.
Question. How well do you know Ms. Fleming?
Answer. Not very much. I think I met him once.
Question. That is an individual—I'm sorry, a man named Fleming, Lorin Fleming?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Have you ever had any discussions with Mr. Fleming concerning your brother's business activities?
Answer. No.
Question. There is an individual who had Power of Attorney for several of your brother's bank accounts, and according to our information was your brother's bookkeeper at one time, an individual named Maria Mapili. Do you know Maria Mapili?
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Answer. Not by that name.
Question. Do you know anyone named Maria who worked with your brother?
Answer. No.
Question. There was an assistant at the Daihatsu Corporation, your brother's corporation, Jody Webb; do you know Jody Webb?
Answer. No.
Question. There is a gentleman named Yue, Y-U-E, Fang, F-A-N-G, Chu, C-H-U. Do I know that individual?
Answer. No, huh-uh.
Question. There is an individual with whom your brother has done business according to the records of the subcommittee, named Ng Lap Seng, also know as Mr. Wu, and I think I asked you earlier about Mr. Wu. Do you recall, first of all, ever hearing his name?
Answer. Not as I can remember. I was in Little Rock in 1994, late 1994, I met a lot—I went to his office and met some staff.
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Question. You went to whose office?
Answer. My brother's office. I met a bunch of people but I have no idea who they are and I don't remember any names.
Question. I think I asked you about a woman named Keshi Zhan and you have no knowledge of her at all?
Answer. Not that name, no.
Question. Do you know an individual named Ming Chen?
Answer. No.
Question. How about Xiping Wang, X-I-P-I-N-G?
Answer. No.
Question. And I apologize to you if I mispronounce these names in any way.
Answer. No, it's fine. All the people I know seems like they will be Mike, Dave, Bob. When you start spelling those, I don't know anybody that by that names, yes.
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Question. You're indicating to me—and if I'm misstating this correct me if I am wrong—you have met associates of your brothers who have been given first names such as Mike, Dave and Bob and you don't necessarily know their last names?
Answer. No, just introduction, say, ''Hi,'' that was the end of it; never speak to them again, never seen them again.
Question. Okay. Do you know an individual named Zhengwei Chang?
Answer. No.
Question. Charles Chiang?
Answer. No.
Question. There is an individual who according to our information signed for your brother's—strike that.
Your brother signed for her apartment in Washington, a woman named Bei-Bei Liu?
Answer. Never heard of her.
Question. Okay. And how about Zhengkang Shao? Have you ever heard that name before?
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Answer. No.
Question. Do you know any individuals at the Asia-America Trade Center in Hong Kong?
Answer. No.
Question. You don't know an individual named Peter Chen?
Answer. I heard of his name, yes.
Question. You heard of his name? From whom have you heard about Mr. Chen?
Answer. He's a family friend.
Question. He's a friend of the family's? Of your family's?
Answer. Not mine, but my brother, sister. I think they know him.
Question. Would he be from Arkansas?
Answer. I don't know where he's from.
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Question. But do you recall ever meeting him?
Answer. I think I met him once.
Question. Do you know an individual here in the San Francisco area named Sy Zuan Pan?
Answer. No.
Question. How about Yogesh Gandhi?
Answer. No. I would have remembered if I heard that name.
Question. It is a name you would remember, I guess; is that right?
Lottie Shackleford, a friend of your brother's from Arkansas?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever met a man—strike that.
Have you ever heard your brother mention a name, Mark Middleton?
Answer. No.
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Question. Have you ever met Mr. Middleton?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever been to Washington?
Answer. No.
Question. Then you have never attended any political or government events with your brother in the city of Washington?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall your brother being appointed to a commission with respect to international trade? I think it had the name Bingaman Commission. Do you recall anything in connection with your brother being appointed to a commission by President Clinton?
Answer. I remember he was—there was a possibility to be appointed, but I don't know—I didn't follow up because it wasn't important to me.
Question. Let me, if I can, get into another area now. At some point in time in connection with the $12,500 represented by Exhibit MF–1 and the $10,000 represented by MF–6, at some point in time you had a series of discussions with representatives of the Democratic National Committee; didn't you?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And, in fact, Mr. Landon ultimately, as represented by his check, represented by MF–4, his $12,500 check, Mr. Landon received $12,500 back from the Democratic National Committee; isn't that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Have you ever received any money back from the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. Not yet.
Question. And you had discussions with people at the Democratic National Committee concerning getting the $22,500 returned to you; did you not?
Answer. Yes.
[Foung Deposition Exhibit No. MF–9 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. I show you what is marked as MF–9, which in fact are some telephone records reflecting some of the calls you have had to make to Washington, and according to our review of the numbers, you have, in fact, made calls to Washington seeking to have this money be returned to you; is that correct?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. With whom have you spoken concerning—you have called the Democratic National Committee; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And with whom have you spoken at the Democratic National Committee concerning the return of $22,500 to you for the two contributions that you made for which you were reimbursed by your brother? With whom have you spoken concerning those contributions?
Answer. I recall at first it was Mr. Joe Sandler.
Question. Joseph Sandler?
Answer. Joseph Sandler, yes.
Question. And how many times have you spoken with Mr. Sandler?
Answer. Once or twice.
Question. And did Mr. Sandler make any representations to you about money being returned to you?
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Answer. No. I couldn't remember. I don't think so.
Question. Who else have you spoken with?
Answer. He referred me to talk to the counsel, John Best.
Question. Mr. Judah Best, Judd Best?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how many conversations have you had with Mr. Best?
Answer. I couldn't remember.
Question. When was the last conversation you had with Mr. Best?
Answer. The last conversation was right after the investigator left. I called him to let him know according to this record, the money was reimbursed me by the cashier's check, but I didn't remember previously.
Question. And did Mr. Best accuse you of changing your story?
Answer. Not so much accuse. I guess I didn't remember any detail, so my detail might be different.
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Question. I guess what I'm trying to—the point I'm trying to get to is that the Democratic National Committee determined to return $12,500 to Mr. Landon, correct?
Answer. Say that again.
Question. The Democratic National Committee returned $12,500 to Mr. Landon, correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And they haven't returned any of the money to you?
Answer. Yes—no, I mean.
Question. That is correct, they have not returned any money to you; have they?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And you have discussed that with Mr. Best or Mr. Sandler about their paying Mr. Landon $12 500, but not paying you $22,500 for your contributions.
Have you had any discussions with Mr. Sandler or Mr. Best about that matter?
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Answer. No.
Question. Have you discussed that you be reimbursed?
Answer. Yes.
Question. My point is when you asked to be reimbursed, what was the response?
Answer. At first, he was asking me a question to see——
Question. ''He'' being Mr.——
Answer. Mr. Best.
Question [continuing]. Best? Okay.
Answer. To determine whether it should be refunded or not. And at first, I don't think I gave him the correct information, because I couldn't remember this $15,000 and my bank record does not reflect the twelve-five deposit, so I thought—I couldn't give him the exact on that part. And on the $10,000 wire, he say, yes, that should be refund. He will have to get back with me. He will talk to the DNC.
Question. And that conversation was in August?
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Answer. I couldn't remember when.
Mr. STEVENS. Just tell him if you remember.
The WITNESS. I couldn't remember.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. As you speak today, have you received any money back from the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. Not yet.
Question. Has anyone—did you at any time indicate to the Democratic National Committee that this money was not yours; in fact, it had been reimbursed to you by your brother or by some friends of your brothers?
Answer. I did mention initially, according to my bank record, the money was wired to me. I did mention that to him. I couldn't remember this one, so I cannot tell him exactly what happened. And later on I did call back to confirm that according to the investigator, the record, that is what happened.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Landon indicated to officials of the Democratic National Committee that the $12,500 was not his money?
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Answer. I—I don't know—I don't know.
Question. I understand. Mr. Landon will be here. We will ask him.
Answer. Yes, you will have to ask him.
Question. I wondered if you had any knowledge of what he has said to the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. I think he mentioned that he never spoke to anybody about it.
Question. Has anyone from Ernst & Young, the accounting firm of Ernst & Young ever contacted you?
Answer. Not as I can remember.
Question. In connection with the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall how Mr. Landon's contribution for which he was reimbursed by your brother, or friends of your brother, of $12,500, do you recall how that money was returned to him? Was it in the form of a check?
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Answer. I'm sorry?
Question. Do you recall how the $12,500 returned to Mr. Landon, do you recall how it was returned to him?
Answer. You mean from DNC?
Question. Yes.
Answer. I think it was a check.
Question. Apart from contacts with the Democratic National Committee, and contacts with Mr. Little and investigators working with the Majority members of the committee, the Republican side of the committee, have you had contacts with those working with the Democrats on the committee, with the Minority on the committee prior to this morning?
Answer. Mr. Ballen called me one time, asked to speak to my counsel, my attorney, and I didn't have one.
Question. Apart from that one call from Mr. Ballen, any calls from any other representatives of the Democrats on the committee?
Answer. No.
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Question. I meant to ask you about an individual at the DNC in addition to Mr. Sandler and Mr. Best named Steve Grossman. Have you ever spoken with Mr. Grossman?
Answer. No. I spoke to somebody who answered the phone, but it wasn't him, I know. I know that.
Question. Mr. Grossman is not answering the phone at the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. No, he didn't answer the question.
Question. No, I'm just kidding.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, Dick, could I have a brief break?
Mr. BENNETT. I was going to say we are literally about to stop. We have been going for 2 hours or an hour and 45 minutes. Why don't we take a brief break for 10 minutes.
[Brief Recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Ms. Foung, with respect to your contacts with individuals at the Democratic National Committee, do you recall speaking with anyone other than Mr. Best, Mr. Sandler, or Mr. Grossman, apart from someone who answered the telephone, but in terms of having any substantive discussions with anybody other than Best, Sandler, or Grossman?
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Mr. STEVENS. I'm sorry; did she say she actually spoke to Grossman?
The WITNESS. No, I never did spoke with him.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. I'm sorry. Besides Best and Sandler, you said you did not speak with Grossman but you spoke with someone who answered the phone?
Answer. Yes.
Question. But it was probably not Mr. Grossman?
Answer. No, it wasn't.
Question. Do you recall speaking with anyone else other than Best or Sandler?
Answer. No.
Question. You obviously had to make some phone calls. I mean, just in July alone there are a series of six phone calls, and I gather from your testimony you've had to make others.
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Have you been having sort of an engaging dialogue with the Democratic National Committee? I mean, looking at Exhibit MF–9, just in July there are a series of six phone calls in a period of 13 days. You also called the Democratic National Committee sometime in August after being interviewed by investigators; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. How many times in August do you think you called to the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. I couldn't remember. No, I never did call Democratic National Committee. I always talked to Mr. Best. But prior to talking to Mr. Best, I did call a couple of times.
Question. Mr. Best is the lawyer for the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. Right.
Question. Let me ask you two questions. You called Mr. Best after meeting with investigators in August; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. And how many phone conversations have you had with Mr. Best since August?
Answer. After talking to the investigator?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Only one time.
Question. Have you talked to him within the last month?
Answer. No.
Question. To your knowledge since speaking with investigators, have you only spoken with Mr. Best one time?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. With respect to other representatives of the Democratic National Committee—and for the record, Mr. Best is the lawyer for the Democratic National Committee representing that group—how many conversations have you had with anybody else at the Democratic National Committee after speaking with investigators?
Answer. None.
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Question. None? Okay. Since basically speaking with investigators, have you only had one conversation with Mr. Best and you have had no conversations with anyone else as a representative of the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. How many phone calls do you think all told, in total, the total number of phone calls you have had with either Mr. Best or with any other representatives of the Democratic National Committee, total?
Answer. I don't know. I couldn't remember.
Question. Certainly we have the six reflected on Exhibit 9, plus the other one with Mr. Best, so there have been—there have been at least seven phone calls that you have had; is that correct?
Mr. STEVENS. I think that would assume that in each of these six phone calls on Exhibit MF–9 that she actually spoke with someone. I would note that a few of them are 30, 40, 60 cent telephone conversations. And in light of my knowledge of long distance rates, that would suggest to me that these were very brief——
The WITNESS. Leave a message.
Mr. STEVENS. —leave-a-message type calls.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Take a look at MF–9, if you would, Ms. Foung. The phone call on July 3rd lasted for a minute. Another phone call a minute later on July 3rd lasted for 2 minutes, but you don't have any recollection of the specifics of that phone call?
Answer. Probably just left a message.
Question. All right. And then the phone call, again looking at MF–9, on July the 11th lasted for 6 minutes. Again, you don't recall the substance of that call?
Answer. No, not at all.
Question. And then there was a phone call on July 14th lasted 1 minute, then another phone call a few minutes later on July 14th lasting for 5 minutes, but you don't recall the specifics of that call?
Answer. The 5 minutes is probably the person who answered the phone. I have maybe had a brief——
Question. How about July 16th, there was a 22-minute telephone call?
Answer. That's Mr. Best's number.
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Question. Okay. And you believe that's the conversation——
Answer. The initial——
Question [continuing]. The lengthy conversation with Mr. Best at that time?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. And you believe you have had—we don't have your records for August before us, but you recall that you did make one other phone call in August; is that right?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. What about the calls that you have received from the Democratic National Committee or from Mr. Best? You have in fact received calls from Mr. Best, haven't you? He's called you back on occasion; hasn't he?
Answer. Yes, Mr. Sandler called me once and gave me Mr. Best's number. And so I was keeping in touch with Mr. Best.
Question. How many times do you believe Mr. Best has called you?
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Answer. He called me once.
Question. Has he called you more than once?
Answer. No, just once.
Question. Has any representative of the Democratic National Committee, apart from Mr. Sandler, ever called you?
Answer. No.
Question. And that was one time that he called you?
Answer. Mr. Sandler? He called me once.
Question. So again to be clear, Mr. Sandler has called you one time?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And Mr. Best has called you one time?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. Okay. Now, let me get into the matter which obviously relates to why you're here, and that is your brother, Charlie Trie?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. When did your brother first immigrate to this country?
Answer. I can't remember.
Question. Your brother's 3 years older than you?
Answer. Yes.
Question. He was born in 1949; you were born in 1952.
Answer. I was born 1952; I think he was born in '49. I don't know his birthday.
Question. Okay. Do you recall how old you were—did you all come as a family? You all came as a family when you came to this country, correct?
Answer. No.
Question. You did not? I'm sorry.
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Answer. My sister came—I don't remember when, long, long, long time ago.
Question. Is your sister, Dai Lin, older than you?
Answer. Yes.
Question. How much older, if you know, approximately?
Answer. I don't.
Question. I'm just trying to make sure I understand the arrival of your family. I know you said your father is deceased. When did your father die?
Answer. When I was 13, so about 32 years ago.
Question. Okay. He died here in this country, in the United States?
Answer. No.
Question. Did your father—I need to step back if we can in terms of your family history with respect to your brother and arrival.
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Answer. Okay.
Question. Did your mother and father both immigrate to this country, or just your mother after your father's death?
Answer. Just my mother.
Question. Your father died in China?
Answer. In Taiwan.
Question. In Taiwan, I'm sorry.
And then your mother immigrated to this country with how many children at the time?
Answer. Three—we have three of us.
Question. Three. So all three of you came with your mother when she came to this country?
Answer. No.
Question. If you will explain. I am trying to get the answer from you and I don't know how to do it with the questions I am asking. Perhaps you can tell me. Why don't you explain when did your mother come to this country?
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Answer. 1978 or '79.
Question. And you were——
Answer. 1978.
Question. And she had adult children by that time?
Answer. We were all adult, yes.
Question. Okay. Then I'm just trying to clarify, then your mother did not come to this country with young children?
Answer. No.
Question. Your mother came in 1978 or '79, after all three of her children had already come to this country?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Then let's step back. Correct me if I am wrong, I believe you indicated you first immigrated to this country when you were 25?
Answer. Twenty-one, '73, yes.
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Question. In 1973. Your sister Dai Lin was already here?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Was your brother Charlie Trie already here?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Again, trying to go back over what you went over earlier this morning. Your brother came approximately 1973?
Answer. '74 or '5 or '6, I can't remember.
Question. And he went directly to Arkansas?
Answer. Yes.
Question. So your brother came from China and moved directly to the State of Arkansas?
Answer. From Taiwan.
Question. From Taiwan to Arkansas?
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Answer. That's correct.
Question. And your sister was already there?
Answer. Yes.
Question. So when your brother came to this country, in the mid-1970s, he went directly to Arkansas and I believe you indicated earlier he began working for or with your sister in her restaurant?
Answer. I believe so.
Question. Okay. And your brother would have been, in the mid-'70s he would have been late twenties, perhaps approaching 30 years of age; is that correct?
Answer. Something like that, 20-something.
Question. What is your brother's educational background?
Answer. He graduated from high school in Taiwan. He was in some kind of engineering school, or something.
Question. Do you know, did your brother ever go to college?
Answer. I don't think so.
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Question. When your brother came to Arkansas in the mid to late '70s, there was a time period from 1977 to 1983 when you lived in Arkansas?
Answer. Yes.
Question. So you would see your brother with some frequency, at least during those 6 years; isn't that correct?
Answer. Yes, I see him.
Question. I mean, your sister and your brother and you were all living in the State of Arkansas?
Answer. Right.
Question. From 1977 to 1983?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And were you living in the Little Rock area?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. So you were all living in the same city?
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Answer. Yes, that's correct.
Question. Incidentally, before I get—on the matters we discussed earlier this morning, the reimbursement to you for the $12,500 check and the $10,000 check, did you ever discuss with your brother the source of the repayment, where he got the money to reimburse you or where anyone got the money to reimburse you?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Do you have any knowledge of anybody, other than your brother, seeing that you got repaid?
Answer. No.
Question. Directing your attention to the period of time, the late 1970s, mid to late 1970s, I wasn't clear this morning whether or not your brother ultimately took over the restaurant from your sister or established his own restaurant. Do you know?
Answer. I remember at first he was working for my sister, then they were—opened a new restaurant as a partnership together.
Question. Okay.
Answer. Then after my sister moved to Virginia, I assumed he was on his own.
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Question. And how long was he in the restaurant business?
Answer. Since he came here until he sold his business. I don't remember what year.
Question. Up until the time he sold his business and went to Washington, he was in the restaurant business, correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And that would have been approximately up until, like, 1994?
Answer. I don't know. I don't remember.
Question. Do you know—strike that.
I think you previously indicated to the investigators that on some occasions—and correct me if I am wrong—you have indicated that on some evenings, receipts at the restaurant on a given evening might be made as political contributions to Governor Clinton for his re-election campaigns in Arkansas at your brother's restaurant.
Do you recall making that statement?
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Answer. I remember saying something like that. But—I don't know——
Question. Can you give me some facts on that?
Answer. No, I don't have no facts. I don't remember. Probably just my brother had—or somebody might have mentioned something to me, but——
Question. I understand. I just want to explore what your understanding of that was about.
Do you believe that your brother's relationship with Governor Clinton was such that he was a political supporter of Governor Clinton in Arkansas?
Answer. I don't know if political supporter at first. I think they were just friends. They played basketball together or something like that.
Question. And how often would he play basketball with Governor Clinton?
Answer. I don't know. See I moved away from Little Rock.
Question. In 1983?
Answer. 1983.
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Question. President Clinton was then the Governor of Arkansas?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. And your knowledge in terms of his playing basketball, I think that your brother—you have a niece named Darcy Trie; is that correct?
Answer. Say that name again.
Question. Do you have a niece named Darcy Trie?
Answer. No.
Question. What are the names of the children of your brother? I am sorry; does your brother have any children?
Answer. He has one daughter.
Question. What is her name?
Answer. E-Mei.
Question. E-Mei. I am sorry; I thought her nickname was Darcy Trie. She is actually a student at the University of Arkansas?
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Answer. That's correct.
Question. And do you recall a relationship between your brother and President Clinton, then Governor Clinton, that would cause them to play basketball together?
Answer. I think it was a comment that was made. I don't know. Just back in my mind seems like they played basketball together.
Question. The simple fact is, then, that your brother, apart from the comment that the President made to you last year at the party in Hillsborough——
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question [continuing]. In terms of his friendship with your brother, your brother clearly considered President Clinton, then Governor Clinton, to be a friend; isn't that correct?
Mr. STEVENS. Don't speculate. It sounds like you are asking her to read someone else's mind.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. We will step back. I usually interpret people who play basketball together and are political supporters to be friends. And I'm asking you, given what the President of the United States said about his friendship with your brother, Ms. Foung, clearly there must have been some comments by your brother with respect to how he felt about Governor Clinton, if he played basketball with him. That's my question to you.
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Answer. Okay. Could I give you a little background?
Question. I would like it. That would be fine.
Answer. I have been away from Arkansas since 1983. And since 1983 until now, I spoke to my brother maybe three times, four times a year. Mostly he will call me and say, how you doing? And half of the time it is answering machine, because I am working. So we have very little discussion on a lot of things, not to mention the President of the United States.
So I really—I was under the impression that my brother and Mr. Clinton, they know each other. And he's very loyal to the President, and a supporter. But I really cannot tell you anything more.
Question. What does the phrase ''lao ke'' mean?
Answer. I don't understand what that is.
Question. Again, if you don't, I will be up the creek because I don't. L-A-O, and then ke, K-E. It is my understanding that it is a term of endearment in the Chinese language, but obviously you would know that better than I.
Mr. STEVENS. ''Lao ke,'' does that mean anything to you at all?
The WITNESS. No, no.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Do you know exactly how Charlie Trie ever met Governor Clinton?
Answer. No, I don't know.
Question. Do you know the facts surrounding your brother's appointment to any boards? Apart from Federal boards in Washington, any State boards, for example the Fire Extinguisher Board? Do you have any knowledge of any of that?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know exactly why he sold his restaurant business?
Answer. Not really, but I was under the impression same reason—he got tired of, I guess. I don't know.
Question. Do you know anything about the businesses that he went into after or he tried to establish after he sold his restaurant?
Answer. I remember he was trying to manufacture some kind of a tool that somebody had a patent on it.
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Question. Do you know any of the specifics of whether he procured the patent or whether he manufactured the tool or not?
Answer. I believe they got the patent.
Question. Who's ''they''?
Answer. My brother and somebody else. Whoever invented the tool.
Question. Okay.
Answer. And they were talking about going to China to have—hopefully to have it manufactured there.
Question. But you don't have any knowledge of that?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Daihatsu International Trading Company?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what knowledge do you have of that company?
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Answer. Just the letterhead, the envelope.
Question. Did you ever see the offices of Daihatsu International Trading Company?
Answer. I seen the office. I don't know that that's what it is. Remember, I told you back in Christmas '94, I was in Little Rock visiting my mother. I visited his office.
Question. Your brother's office?
Answer. My brother's office.
Question. And there was an office. Did you see the sign ''Daihatsu International Trading Company'' on the door?
Answer. I didn't. I didn't see.
Question. I understand. And do you know whether that business was successful or not?
Answer. It looks very successful to me. It is a very impressive envelope and letterhead.
Question. Apart from seeing the envelope and letterhead, did you see any offices?
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Answer. The office——
Question. Did you go—you said you went to your brother's office?
Answer. Yeah, the business office.
Question. Did you see, were there many employees there?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay.
Answer. I met at least 10 people, maybe. Big office.
Question. And to your knowledge, this was the Daihatsu International Trading Company?
Answer. I was under the impression.
Question. Okay. I don't want you to speculate. I'm just trying to ask you. Do you know anything about San Kin Yip International? Does that name ring a bell to you?
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Answer. Not really.
Question. How about America-Asia Trade Center, Incorporated?
Answer. No.
Question. Sanyou Science & Technology?
Answer. No.
Question. Premier Advertising?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know if your brother has any family sources of income? Does your mother have a great deal of money that she gives you and your brother and your sister?
Answer. No, I know my mother received some kind of something from the Chinese government for my father's death, some kind of death benefit.
Question. And how long ago was that? Does she still receive such benefits?
Answer. I'm not so sure. Maybe. I don't know.
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Question. I guess my question to you is in terms of——
Answer. I think it was a yearly distribution or something, I don't know.
Question. I understand. But apart from that, is your mother an independently wealthy woman?
Answer. No.
Question. And to your knowledge there is no family source of money that comes to your brother or to your sister or to you?
Answer. Not to me.
Question. And do you have any knowledge of your brother receiving money from your mother in terms of some family source of money?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. You don't have any knowledge of that?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you discussed with your brother at any time his involvement in the election and re-election campaigns of President Clinton in 1992 and 1996?
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Answer. Not at all.
Question. And I gather that that would also apply with respect to Mrs. Clinton or any other members of the Clinton family? You have not discussed your brother's involvement with any of them at any time?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge as to why your brother moved to Washington in the summer of 1994?
Answer. I didn't know he moved to Washington. As far as I know, he lived in Arkansas—I mean, his residence is in Arkansas.
Question. Until when?
Answer. Still now; isn't it?
Question. As a matter of fact, I was going to ask you that.
Answer. His house is in Arkansas, but he's out of the country the majority of the time.
Question. When was the last time your brother was in the country?
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Answer. I don't know.
Question. When's the last time you spoke with your brother?
Mr. STEVENS. In person or on the telephone?
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. On the telephone.
Answer. On the telephone? I think it was after I spoke to the investigator. He called me one night.
Question. Okay. Do you know how your brother would have known that you spoke with an investigator?
Answer. Because I told my mother. I asked my mother if my brother calls, please give me a call.
Question. Let me ask you again. You spoke with investigators in the latter part of August last month; is that correct?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. And then you called your mother?
Answer. Yes, I didn't call her—I called her after I find out I have to go to Washington for a hearing.
Question. And you spoke with your mother. And what conversation did you have with your mother concerning your brother?
Answer. Basically how ridiculous the whole thing was—is—or was—is.
Question. And you spoke with your mother about that?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. And did you ask your mother to get in contact with your brother?
Answer. I asked my mother if my brother calls her, have him give me a call. Because I'm really——
Question. I understand.
Answer [continuing]. Trying to find out what is going on.
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Question. Do you know if your mother has the telephone number for your brother where she can reach him if she desires?
Answer. No.
Question. You don't know the answer to that?
Answer. I don't know the answer, but I don't think so.
Question. She has to wait for your brother to call her?
Answer. My mother rarely call us. We call her, any one of us.
Question. Do you know if your mother has the ability to contact your brother in the event of a family emergency?
Answer. I never asked that. But my brother calls my mother sometimes.
Question. I am going to get into that in a minute. My question is, is there any member of your family that has the ability to contact your brother in the event of any kind of an emergency?
Answer. I don't know. I only know I don't.
Question. Do you know if your sister has the ability to contact your brother?
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Answer. I don't know.
Question. Getting back to the matter of after you were notified that you may have to attend a hearing, in fact that was the earlier part of this month, wasn't it in September?
Answer. Something like that. Has to be.
Question. So in this month when an initial appearance had been scheduled for you before a hearing before the committee, you contacted your mother?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you asked that the next time your brother called, that he call you?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how soon after that conversation did your brother call you?
Answer. A few days.
Question. A few days later?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. Where was he calling from?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Do you know whether or not he was overseas? Do you have any idea?
Answer. I believe he was—he didn't tell me. Did I ask him? I couldn't remember. I might have asked him, ''Where are you?''
Question. And what did he say?
Answer. I don't remember he said anything or not. Maybe he say Taiwan, maybe Singapore. I don't know.
Question. But you believe you asked him where he was and you believe——
Answer. I couldn't remember because our normal conversation whenever he calls me I always say, hey, where are you, where are you now? He will tell me San Francisco or Washington or Taiwan or China, Hong Kong, or wherever he was. But there is so many.
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Question. Certainly in this conversation in this month of September, he didn't indicate he was in San Francisco or Washington; did he?
Answer. Oh, no, no. I believe he was overseas.
Question. And did you ask him when he was coming back to this country?
Answer. No, I didn't ask that. In fact, the conversation was very brief. He indicated he shouldn't be talking to me, because I am a potential witness. So he doesn't want to say anything to influence me.
The only thing—the only reason he say he called is he recommend I speak to an attorney. That's basically the reason he called.
Question. Did he indicate to you whether he had been speaking with anyone else, other than your mother, concerning your situation?
Answer. Concerning my situation?
Question. I guess, specifically, your brother called you?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. After you called your mother?
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Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Did your brother indicate to you that he had spoken with anybody else—strike that.
Did your brother indicate to you that he had even spoken with your mother?
Answer. I—we didn't discuss that, I would assume so, otherwise——
Question. But you don't know?
Answer. No, I don't know.
Question. When he called, did he indicate that he was aware of the fact that you were about to be called before a hearing?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And did he indicate whether or not he had spoken with anybody about your being called for a hearing?
Answer. I couldn't remember. Maybe—maybe he mentioned his attorney or something.
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Question. Do you believe he spoke with his attorney concerning your coming before the hearing?
Answer. I don't know. He asked me to call—call attorney.
Question. Let me ask you this, Ms. Foung. I want to get back to this conversation, but have there been any other conversations with your brother, apart from this conversation, this month?
Answer. Oh, no. The last time I spoke to him I think was earlier in the year, February or March.
Question. Well, obviously you spoke with him in August because you had the transaction with the $10,000 check.
Mr. BALLEN. '97?
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. I'm sorry; excuse me, that was '96. So, you believe that prior to this phone call with your brother in September of this year, that the last time you would have spoken with him would have been February or March of 1997?
Answer. That's correct.
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Question. And except for this one particular phone call, you have not spoken with him any other time?
Answer. No, no.
Question. Now, in terms of his knowledge of your having been called before a hearing, did he specifically say with whom he had spoken concerning your having been called?
Answer. I think he did mention he had his attorney—he had spoken to his attorney.
Question. And do you know whether he called his attorney or his attorney called him?
Answer. That I don't know.
Question. Did he indicate that he'd spoken with anyone else concerning your having been called?
Answer. No, no.
Question. And what exactly did he say to you in connection with your coming before the committee before a hearing?
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Answer. Like I said earlier, he said he cannot discuss anything me because I'm a potential witness, and I need to speak to attorney.
Question. Did he recommend any particular attorney for you to see initially?
Answer. No.
Question. Did he indicate that he had spoken with anyone else about your seeing an attorney?
Answer. No, the conversation was very brief.
Question. Did he ask you if you had been asked any questions?
Answer. No.
Question. And he did not discuss the content of the statements you made to investigators?
Answer. Not at all.
Question. And you don't have any knowledge of any other individuals speaking with your brother?
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Answer. Say that again.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of any other individuals speaking with your brother over the past 6 weeks?
Answer. My other family members?
Question. Any other people, family member or——
Answer. Oh, no, I wouldn't know at all. My mother would be the only person that I would know that speak to my brother periodically.
Question. And apart from your mother having spoken with him, you don't have any knowledge of anyone else having spoken with him?
Answer. No, not at all.
Question. Do you know what your brother's source of income is now?
Answer. I don't.
Question. Is his wife still living in this country?
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Answer. No.
Question. His wife has also left?
Answer. She's—she's always staying overseas the past few years.
Question. Where does she reside?
Answer. She—she go to Taiwan sometimes. She's in China sometimes. I don't know, I never keep track of that.
Question. And what is her name, I'm sorry?
Answer. Wa Mei.
Question. And there is only one child of that marriage and that is Denise who goes to the University of Arkansas?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. That is the only child?
Answer. That I know of.
Question. That you know of. I understand. I understand. I'm not going to get into that. Believe me. I'm not going to begin to get into that.
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To your knowledge that is the only child he has?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of his financial situation?
Answer. No, not at all.
Question. Would you know where your brother would have—I guess you've read all the reports about your brother and the large contributions that he made or sought to make?
Answer. To be honest with you, I never did.
Question. You say you have never read all the press reports about that?
Answer. No, I never did.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of where your brother would have access to hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Answer. I don't know.
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Question. Do you know, has he ever mentioned the various political groups that he's been involved with or efforts in terms of Vote Now '96, or Defeat Proposition 209 here in California?
Answer. Not at all. We never discussed.
Question. Never discussed political matters with him?
Answer. Never discussed political matters. I asked him, do you think Mr. Clinton's going to win? He feel confident he will. That is the extent of our discussion as far as political.
Question. Have you ever discussed his foreign trips with him in terms of his frequency of foreign trips?
Answer. Like I said earlier, we spoke to each other three, four times a year. And we really don't discuss much. I'm not that curious. I'm more concerned about my personal business.
Question. Sure, I understand. Since 1993, you have spoken two, three or four times a year?
Answer. Maybe more or less.
Question. Has he spoken to you in terms of any of his person or business problems?
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Answer. No.
Question. He hasn't discussed any financial matters with you or his financial matters or problems?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever had any knowledge of his being in financial trouble?
Answer. No, but earlier in the year he told me that he would have to obtain an attorney and it is very expensive. As far as I know.
Question. Have you ever loaned him any money?
Answer. I might have in the past, but I couldn't remember.
Question. In the last 2 years——
Answer. Oh, no.
Question [continuing]. Have you loaned him any money?
Answer. No.
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Question. Are you aware of any times he has had to borrow money from any of his friends?
Answer. No.
Question. And you indicated you don't know who Mark Middleton is?
Answer. No.
Question. Would you know why Mr. Middleton might be giving your brother $5,000?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. And you have never discussed that with your brother?
Answer. No.
Question. And you have never discuss Mr. Mark Middleton with your brother?
Answer. No, I never know that person.
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Question. Has your brother ever discussed with you the group Suma Ching Hai?
Answer. No.
Question. How about in September of 1995? According to our records, your brother attended a conference, actually with Mrs. Clinton. Do you remember discussing that with him in any way?
Answer. No.
Question. And you have not discussed any of his business trips to China or Hong Kong with him?
Answer. No.
Question. Did he ever discuss with you his appointment to a Presidential commission in terms of people who assisted him in that regard?
Answer. I think he mentioned something about they have a very thorough background check, so they might check me as a sister.
Question. And did he speak to you about that?
Answer. Maybe, yes, I think so.
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Question. And what kind of conversation—basically, what was the content of that discussion?
Answer. I couldn't remember. It was something that I'm not interested in.
Question. Okay. Did you ever discuss with him his effort to assist the Presidential Legal Expense Trust in terms of President Clinton's legal expenses and a trust created for that?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever discussed the late Secretary of State, a gentleman who died, a gentleman named Ron Brown?
Answer. No. I saw on the TV.
Question. That he died in the plane crash?
Answer. That he died, yeah. That's all I know.
Question. You never discussed Ron Brown with your brother?
Answer. No.
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Question. Do you know of any contact which your brother has had with President Clinton over the last year?
Answer. My brother's what?
Question. Do you know of any contact which your brother has had with President Clinton in the last year?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know if he has had any contact with President Clinton?
Answer. I don't know. I have no interest in that. So I wouldn't—the time he speak to me, the time is so precious, I wouldn't be asking something that I'm not interested.
Question. I understand. Hold on just one second.
Just a few things. One, you don't have any knowledge of your brother's financial affairs in terms of whether or not the restaurant was successful or not?
Answer. I believe the restaurant was successful.
Question. But you don't know——
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Answer. While the time I was there.
Question. When you were there, from '77 to '83?
Answer. Yes.
Question. You don't know any financial facts in terms of his sale of the restaurant?
Answer. No.
Question. And with respect to your niece, the daughter of Dai Lin Outlaw, Elaine Outlaw, do you know how old she is now?
Answer. 20-something.
Question. Do you know where she works?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know whether or not she's ever worked for the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. Not as I know of.
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Question. Where does she presently live?
Answer. Elaine?
Question. Yes.
Answer. I thought it was Virginia.
Question. Do you know where in Virginia?
Answer. No.
Question. And with respect to your attendance at any political or business events with your brother, I gather from your answers you have not attended any political events with your brother?
Answer. No.
Question. Ever?
Answer. Never, except the one in Hillsborough.
Question. And he was not there, but you were there?
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Answer. No, he wasn't. No, never together.
Question. Have you ever gone—has your brother ever shown you photographs of him with the members of the Clinton family?
Answer. No. He showed me the picture of him and Mr. Clinton and himself.
Question. Okay. And when was that? First of all, when did he show you the photograph?
Answer. Years and years ago.
Question. And this would have been when President Clinton was Governor Clinton or would have been when he was President Clinton?
Answer. President. It would be between '90—I think it was in California; yeah, I was in California. So it would be after '90.
Mr. BENNETT. Hold on one second. Ms. Foung, I have no further questions. As I mentioned to you when we started, Mr. Ballen may have some questions. Maybe I will wind up.
Ken, do you have any questions?
Mr. BALLEN. I do, if we could just take a moment before we begin. Maybe a 5-minute break. Thanks very much.
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[Brief Recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. First of all, I want to very much thank you for coming here this morning. I realize this is an imposition on your time. And on behalf of the Democratic Members of the committee, I would like to thank you.
I think your answers this morning have been very candid, very honest, very forthcoming. Sometimes what is not reflected in the bare record of a deposition is the effort a witness makes and the facial expressions a witness may make to try to search for the truth. And I think we would all agree, both my counterparts on the Republican side and your own attorney, that throughout this deposition you have searched your memory very carefully and tried to come forward with truthful and complete answers, and I think we all appreciate that.
Answer. Thank you.
Question. And, frankly, I'd like to say that based upon what you have said, we are not sure why at this point you are being called or your life is being put under the kind of microscope that it is.
Mr. BENNETT. Objection.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
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Question. Well, Mr. Bennett is entitled to his objection, but, we are not sure. We don't see, based upon the record, the necessity for that.
But maybe can I go to a bottom line here, if you will. As I read to you earlier in this deposition, Mr. Bennett's boss, Chairman Burton from Indiana, has said that there may be a conspiracy of the Chinese government at work here and that your brother is part of it.
I want to emphasize that there is no particular evidence of that fact, and the Democratic Members have seen no evidence to support it, but I want to ask you about your knowledge of that.
Do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that your brother is an agent or a spy of the Government of China?
Answer. No.
Question. I notice you're smiling.
Answer. I think it was ridiculous.
Question. And why do you think it is ridiculous?
Answer. Just knowing my brother for being a brother-sister for 40-some years, that's not him.
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Question. And you see no evidence to indicate that?
Answer. Oh, no, absolutely.
Question. How about of the Government of Taiwan? Is there any evidence whatsoever to show that your brother may be an agent or spy of the Government of Taiwan?
Answer. No.
Question. Government of Indonesia?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that the money that your brother reimbursed you for on the contributions came from the Government of China or the Government of Taiwan?
Answer. No. China and Taiwan both are friendly with the United States. Why would they wanted to have a spy or anything like that? It's something beyond my understanding.
Question. Okay. As far as you know, I believe you testified the money that your brother gave you, you thought came from him?
Answer. I believe so.
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Question. And you still believe that now?
Answer. Yeah.
Question. Because he was doing—he has his own businesses, correct?
Answer. Yeah, I don't know anything otherwise.
Question. I'm sorry?
Answer. I don't know otherwise, of why it would be from anywhere else.
Question. All right. So you knew he had a business, and you knew he asked you to make some contributions and he reimbursed you for the contributions?
Answer. Yes. And I viewed it no different than if he's late for his PG&E bill and asked me to pay the money and he reimbursed me. To me it was the same thing and I didn't think anything of it.
Question. And you didn't——
Answer. I didn't explore any further. It was just something that was not that important to me.
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Question. And that's all you know?
Answer. That's all I know, uh-huh.
Mr. STEVENS. Just in case, Counsel, don't appreciate the reference to PG&E, that's a utility company. The reference was to making a utility bill payment on a timely manner.
The WITNESS. Or house payment. If he saw some way he couldn't make that check in time, he asked me to advance the check. To me it was no difference to me at the time.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Because this was something he was interested in doing, make these contributions?
Answer. Yeah. I wasn't.
Question. And so he asked you to do it?
Answer. Yeah.
Question. And that's basically all you know about this whole affair?
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Answer. Right.
Question. And because you know that, your life has been put into turmoil; hasn't it?
Answer. It has been very, very difficult. Stressful, and a lot of worries. I lost a lot of money, financial loss and everything. It wasn't pleasant.
Question. This has been quite an ordeal for you; hasn't it?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you talk about worry and stress. Could you tell us about that a little bit, about what this has done to you?
Answer. My job is on the line. It's very—because a word has been mentioned about I being used by my brother, which I don't believe is true. If he knew it would cost me—if something was wrong or something, he would not ever ask me to do it. He would not use me. He always do things for me in the past.
And I'm worried about my job because of the negative publicity, and I'm worried about—prior to getting the immunity, I didn't know I was in violation of anything. And it turned out to be I could have faced jail time. I could have faced a big penalty that I couldn't afford. Who's going to take care of my son, you know? All those things just back and forth in my mind.
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Question. You are a single mother?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And when you have to come and give the deposition or meet with your lawyer or go to Washington, that's time away from your job?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And does that put your job in jeopardy in any way?
Answer. More than in jeopardy.
Question. How so?
Answer. First of all, I am not getting paid for the time I'm away from my job, because it's not like a sick or something that is covered.
Then I have to arrange all kinds of child care for my son. And at my job, I am the person responsible for that unit. If I'm not there, they have to hire overtime people, somebody has to be there, and it was my responsibility to take care of it. So I tried to always be dependable being there.
Question. So in other words, these repeated inquiries from the committees, this is a real problem for you on your job?
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Answer. It hasn't been because in the past the investigator has been very accommodating toward my schedule, although I still have—facing the graveyard, I still have to be up all night working and come back on days, and I couldn't rest. I have to worry about it. It was very stressful. It is what is in the future? What impact is going to be on my life, my job and everything?
Question. Let me ask you this, I mean, if you had to go back to Washington——
Answer. That's what I mean. That's my biggest concern.
Question. What would that do for your job?
Answer. First of all, my son is year-round school. October is their offtrack, so he has no school daytime then—so he'll be out of care for 24 hours. I have to arrange 24-hour care for him, which will be very difficult.
I'll be away from my job. Not only I don't get paid for, also I have been having a perfect attendance award for the past years I have been with [Employer's name] and I will have to lose that and I'm not willing to, because this job means a lot to me.
Not only my whole family depends on this job, also I like the job very well. I like the people I work with. I like the people I work for. And that's, I guess, the most important thing to me.
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Question. So it's your hope that you don't have to come back?
Answer. I hope, since I don't think I can offer information that they are looking for, I really think it is a waste of everybody's time for me to be there.
Question. And more than a waste of time, you're talking about your son and your job and——
Answer. My life, yes.
Question [continuing]. Your life. The disruption that might occur as a result of that?
Answer. And the negative publicity that probably can hurt me for a long time.
Question. I see this has made you quite upset?
Answer. Very upset, because I love my brother very much. And seems like I am kind of being made to hurt him or to against him. And for Chinese tradition, that is something you shouldn't be doing.
But I'm here to tell the truth, and I told the truth. Whatever I know, has very little impact on the overall case. I just don't know why I'm being treated like somebody so important or something like that. I mean, I like the attention, but not this type.
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Mr. STEVENS. But you could live without it?
The WITNESS. Uh-huh.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. In fact, you would rather live without it?
Answer. I rather this not happening.
Mr. BALLEN. Maybe we can clarify right now what the plans are for Ms. Foung. Do you know the plans whether to bring her back to Washington or not?
Mr. BENNETT. I have no intentions of telling you that, Mr. Ballen. I would like to know, first of all, when you say ''We're not sure why you are being called,'' just for the record, are you as a counsel for this committee saying that you are not sure? Is that what you think Congressman Waxman—or was that you as a lawyer for the committee?
Mr. BALLEN. Well, that's me as a lawyer. And if I talked to Congressman Waxman——
Mr. BENNETT. I have no doubt about Congressman Waxman's position. I am wondering if you as a lawyer are representing as a lawyer for the committee, that you are representing that you as a lawyer are not sure why this witness is being called.
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Mr. BALLEN. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. In response to that, we have two clear indications of the laundering of money through this witness by Charlie Trie. We also—her brother. We also have indications that this witness's name was used illegally to make a contribution to a United States Senator.
I'll wait until Mr. Barnett finishes, so I can address you. I want to make sure you hear me.
It doesn't really strain my background to understand why it would be relevant for a witness to testify as to two clear violations of law committed by her brother who, incidentally, Ms. Foung, so you know, it was on national television with Tom Brokaw. Did you see your brother on national television?
The WITNESS. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Your brother was seen on national television saying, I quote, ''They'll never find me.'' And he was interviewed on national television by Tom Brokaw of NBC News and it was a topic of a great deal discussion in terms of your brother's boast that he will never come back from China and that ''They'll never find me.''
To put on record to this witness as lawyers, apart from the politics, as lawyers that you are not clear why the witness is being called, I must tell you, Ms. Foung, that the reason you are being called is because you were used—you did nothing wrong as far as we're concerned, but you are used by your brother with respect to two particular transactions.
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And before the committee, you will see that the $25,000 that came for the February payments, in fact, was placed in an account by an individual named Antonio Pan and within minutes of a $25,200 deposit, within minutes, $25,000 was taken out of that account and sent to you.
So we're not going to sit and debate the entire case with you other than to tell you that we believe as lawyers for the Majority that those indications of a violation of law are a piece of the puzzle. No one is casting aspersions on you, but it is my judgment as a lawyer, and Mr. Wilson's judgment as a lawyer, totally apart from the politics of the situation, that the testimony is relevant.
And we don't expect you to have any knowledge of any allegations about what your brother did or did not do in China. I don't know that you would have knowledge of that. But you may not have seen your brother on national television, but he was interviewed by Tom Brokaw, as I say, of NBC News, interviewed at length, and was the topic of a great deal of national discussion about his interview and the fact that the government would never find him. And it's because of that, and because of your involvement in these two transactions with your brother, as well as the other matters that have come to our attention, that we believe that you have relevant testimony to offer to the committee, because it is our job to present facts.
So, my role here is not to get into a political debate over the merits of Republicans versus Democrats. We are here as lawyers trying to present evidence. And I apologize to you that to the extent that you have been inconvenienced, unfortunately many times when facts have to be brought to light, unwilling or unwitting participants are dragged into the process, and that is unfortunate.
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We are doing everything we can to minimize your inconvenience. We have two lawyers and an investigator for the Republican side of the committee and three lawyers for the Democratic side of the committee out of the committee's budget, all of whom have flown here to California to interview you because we wanted to make it convenient for you.
I will tell you that we were asked to have you come to Washington earlier and do it in Washington. We've come out here. We are trying to make things as convenient to you as possible and I apologize for any inconvenience.
So in response to Mr. Ballen's question about when we are going to tell him when you will be called, given the pattern of conduct on the part of some of the people with whom Mr. Ballen works, we will let you know as quickly as possible in terms of when you will be called before a hearing. But you will need to come before the committee. No one at the committee level, either Republican or Democrats, I don't believe is going to be yelling at you or casting aspersions on you.
It is my professional judgment as a lawyer, totally apart from the politics of the matter, that I believe you have relevant testimony to offer. I can assure you that that judgment is made by me as a lawyer. It would be made by me as a lawyer whether I was an Independent, a Republican, a Socialist or a Democrat. And because of that, that is why you are being called. Do you understand that? I am trying to be as honest with you as I can be. My judgment as a lawyer is that you have relevant testimony as to offer and you will be called a witness and we regret the inconvenience.
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Are you finished with your questions, Mr. Ballen? I wanted to respond to your inquiry to me directly.
Mr. BALLEN. You haven't responded and I would like to know, sir, what is your basis, when the Democratic Members vote, and the committee voting unanimously to grant this witness immunity, what is your basis for not informing us and informing this witness when she is going to be called?
Mr. BENNETT. I will certainly, as soon as that decision——
Mr. BALLEN. Are you saying that you don't know?
Mr. BENNETT. I don't know yet. My point is that once I know the decision by the Chairman, and the Chairman advises me what his decision is about when she should be called, I will let you know within 2 minutes, either this afternoon or tomorrow. And I will let Mr. Stevens know immediately. I can't represent to you the exact day. I have reason to believe it will be next week, but until that decision is made by the Chairman, I can't let you know that. So I can't respond to you on that.
Mr. BARNETT. We were advised last week that we would begin the hearings on the 7th, and then the 8th and the 9th would be days when Ms. Foung would testify. Has there been a change in the plans?
Mr. BENNETT. For the record, not having introduced himself for the record, that is Mr. Phil Barnett, Minority counsel who has just spoken. That is not a change in plans now. I believe that is the case, but I need to confirm that. We can probably confirm that before we leave Mr. Stevens' office here today. But I am not prepared to respond directly this minute in terms of the actual day. I have reason to believe that is correct, but I want to confirm that with the Chairman.
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Mr. STEVENS. May I suggest that we finish with the questioning of Ms. Foung so she can get back to work? She was planning to get back to work. Her place of employment is waiting for her. And then we can continue this illuminating discussion——
Mr. BALLEN. I have no further questions.
Mr. BENNETT. I am just responding to a direct——
Mr. STEVENS. I appreciate that. I know you need to state your intentions.
Mr. BENNETT. I've not had a lawyer direct an inquiry to me like that on the record, so I want to make sure that the record is clear back in terms of that direct question of me.
Mr. STEVENS. I think it is wonderful that I don't have to go watch C–SPAN to hear these kinds of arguments.
Mr. BENNETT. Hopefully you will see lawyers conduct themselves as lawyers, and not on political side.
Mr. STEVENS. I appreciate that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
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Question. And a quick question to you, Ms. Foung. I'm frankly surprised, you're not aware then of your brother's interview with NBC News?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you see the broadcast with Tom Brokaw?
Answer. No, I wish——
Question. I assumed you had seen that. Perhaps someone could get a tape of that for you and you could see it and see the manner in which he presented himself to the American public in terms of his response.
Do you know when your brother might be coming back from China, Ms. Foung?
Mr. BALLEN. Objection. You're assuming she knows where he is.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. You can answer the question.
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Has your brother indicated to you, in light of his comment to Tom Brokaw of NBC News that, quote, ''They'll never find me,'' end of quote, and his intention to stay in China, do you know whether—has he ever made that representation to you or your mother that he does not intend to come back to this country?
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Answer. No.
Mr. BENNETT. I have no further questions.
Do you have any further questions, Mr. Ballen?
Mr. BALLEN. No, I do not.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Ms. Foung, you have a right, obviously, to review this transcript. We will see that we get a transcript to you as quickly as possible, and as I advised you at the start, you will have an opportunity to review the transcript with Mr. Stevens, and if there are any errors in transcription or what have you, we will make sure that you are given an opportunity to do that. And I thank you very much for your patience here today.
Mr. BALLEN. Did you have something you wanted to say?
Mr. STEVENS. Off the record for a second.
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. BENNETT. I don't want counsel to think I knew all the detail. We should note on the record that any reference to Ms. Foung's employer should be deleted and just reference to ''her employer.'' It need not name her specific employer and all such references shall be stricken, and I assume the court reporter will see that that is done.
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Mr. STEVENS. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
[Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
[The exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 159 TO 175 HERE
Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: JOSEPH RAYMOND LANDON, JR.
| Monday, September 29, 1997 |
The deposition in the above matter was held in the offices of Charles J. Stevens, Esq., 400 Capitol Mall, Suite 1450, Sacramento, California, commencing at 1:20 p.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: James C. Wilson, senior investigative counsel; Richard D. Bennett, special counsel; Charles F. Little, investigator; Kenneth Ballen, minority chief investigative counsel; Phil Barnett, minority chief counsel; and Christopher Lu, minority counsel.
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For JOSEPH RAYMOND LANDON, JR.:
CHARLES J. STEVENS, ESQ.
Stevens & O'Connell
400 Capitol Mall, Suite 1450
Sacramento, California 95814
Mr. WILSON. Mr. Landon, good morning. On behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, I thank you very much for coming here today.
This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing the proceeding is a House reporter and notary public, and I'll now request that he place you under oath.
THEREUPON, JOSEPH RAYMOND LANDON, JR., a witness, was called for examination, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. WILSON. I'd like to note for the record those who are present at the beginning of this deposition. My name is James Wilson. I'm the designated Majority counsel. Appearing with me today are Mr. Richard Bennett and Mr. Chuck Little.
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Mr. Landon is represented by Mr. Charles Stevens, and appearing on behalf of the Minority are Ken Ballen and Christopher Lu.
Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in a courtroom.
If I ask you about conversations you have had in the past, and you are unable to recall the exact words, you may state that you are unable to recall the exact words, but then please give me the gist or substance of that conversation to the best of your recollection. If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give me your best recollection of either the conversation or the event.
If I ask you whether you have any information about a particular subject, and you have overheard conversations about that subject or have seen correspondence or documents about that subject, please tell me that you do have such information and tell me the source from which you derived such information.
Before I begin questioning, I want to give you some background on the investigation and your appearance here.
Pursuant to its authority under House Rules X and XI of the House of Representatives, the committee is engaged in a wide-ranging review of possible political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law. Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105–139 summarize the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and describe new matters which have arisen in the course of this investigation. Also, pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation. All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues, or questions which have the tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable are proper.
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The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House of Representatives on June 20, 1997. The committee Rule 20 outlines the ground rules for this deposition.
The Majority and Minority counsels will ask you questions about the subject matter of this investigation. Majority counsel will ask questions first, and then when we are finished, Minority counsel will follow and ask whatever questions they have to ask at that time. After they have finished, a new round of questioning may begin.
Pursuant to the committee's rules, you are allowed to have an attorney present, and as we mentioned at the beginning, you are accompanied today by Mr. Charles Stevens.
Any objections raised during the course of the deposition shall be stated for the record. If the witness is instructed not to answer a question, or otherwise refuses to answer a question, the Majority and Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If the Majority and Minority counsels agree that the question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question. If an objection is not withdrawn, the Chairman or a Member designated by the Chairman may decide whether the objection is proper.
This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the committee, which means that it may not be made public without the consent of the committee pursuant to clause 2(k)(7) of House Rule XI. You are asked to abide by the rules of the House and not discuss with anyone other than your attorney this deposition and the issues and questions raised during this proceeding.
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Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your testimony is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman. Practically speaking, the transcripts will be turned around very quickly. I imagine we will be able to Federal Express a copy of the transcript to Mr. Stevens within a day or two, and you will have an opportunity to review the deposition to ensure that the statements you made are correct.
The committee staff may make any typographical or technical changes requested by you. Substantive changes or modifications, clarifications or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for the proposed changes. A letter requesting substantive changes or modifications must be signed by you. Any substantive changes, modifications clarifications or amendments will be included as an appendix to the transcript of the deposition conditioned upon your signing of the transcript.
Do you understand everything we have gone over so far?
The WITNESS. Good enough.
Mr. WILSON. Are there any other statements or observations to be made?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes, I do have a brief statement. Thank you very much.
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Mr. Landon, on behalf of the Democratic Members of the committee, I want to thank you for being here today. I represent the Democratic Members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight.
As you may know, every committee in the Congress is represented by two parties, the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, and the Republican Party is in the Majority and in control of the committee in terms of deciding what witnesses to call and what hearings to have. And Mr. Wilson and Mr. Bennett represent the Republican Majority.
I do not represent either the Democratic National Committee or the current administration, but simply Democrat Members of the House who sit on our committee. Some of them you might be familiar with are from California. Our Ranking Member is Mr. Waxman from Los Angeles. We have other Members from this area, Gary Condit and Mr. Tom Lantos from the Bay Area.
We want to take this opportunity at the outset to apologize because we know this has been an inconvenience on your time and your life.
I don't know what, if anything, you have been informed, but certainly if you have any questions, what the nature of any proceedings might be if you have to come back to Washington in terms of testifying in a committee room with some 40-odd Members of Congress, and possibly television cameras or reporters or things along those lines, so if you have any questions in that regard, we would be happy to help, and certainly from our point of view, we will try to make this process as painless and as simple as possible in terms of what is in our control.
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The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. WILSON. I will be asking you questions concerning the subject matter of this investigation.
Do you understand?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. If you don't understand a question, please say so, and I will repeat it or rephrase it so that you do understand the question.
Do you understand that you should tell me if you don't understand my question?
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. WILSON. The reporter will be taking down everything that we say and will make a written record of the deposition, and I'd ask to you give verbal and audible answers so that the reporter can adequately transcribe all that takes place today.
The WITNESS. Okay.
Mr. WILSON. If you can't hear me, please say so, and I will repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question back to you.
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Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. Please wait until I finish each question before answering, and I'll try to wait until you finish your answer before I ask the next question.
Do you understand that this will help the reporter make a clear record of the questions and answers today?
The WITNESS. Yes, sir.
Mr. WILSON. Your testimony is being taken under oath as if we were in court, and if you answer a question, it will be assumed that you understood the question and the answer was intended to be responsive to it.
Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. And it's my understanding that you are here voluntarily today; is that correct?
The WITNESS. That's correct.
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Mr. WILSON. Do you have any questions about this deposition before we begin the substantive portion of the proceedings?
The WITNESS. Nope.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Just to begin, I'd like to ask you a few background questions for the record.
Could you please state your full name and spell it for the record?
Answer. Joseph Raymond Landon, Jr.
Question. And what was your birthdate?
Answer. 3/27/49.
Question. And if you could, give me a brief explanation of your employment history from the time of secondary school until the present—high school until the present.
Answer. Out of high school I worked for a couple of electrical companies. Then I went down to the Navy, talked to the recruiter. And just so happens that the Army sent me a draft notice, and the next day I was supposed to go to the Navy, so I spent 20 years in the military; 20 years and 3 months. After the military I worked two technical jobs on the outside. I retired in '89.
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Question. You retired from the military in 1989?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And where did you live when you were working with the military?
Answer. After boot camp I was stationed in Georgia, Rhode Island; spent a few years in Antarctica. I was on the USS Midway, the Coral Sea, the USS California. I was stationed in Mare Island for a few years, I taught there, and I got out in Alameda.
Question. And Alameda was your final posting?
Answer. It was final. I was on the USS California there.
Question. And after you retired in 1989, where did you work up until the present?
Answer. I worked for George Martin Engineering Company, Mar Wais Steel, Current Affairs Electric. I had a bunch of temporary jobs, small jobs, and I'm currently with [Employer's Name].
Mr. STEVENS. Do we have the same stipulations?
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Mr. WILSON. Yes, if we could go off the record for a moment.
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. WILSON. We just had a conversation about Mr. Landon's employment, and it's agreed by all present that his employer will not appear in the transcript of this deposition if possible. Please insert ''his employer'' if that subject does come up again.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Now, from 1989 to the present, where did you live in the different positions you have had?
Answer. '89 to present? Up to '89, I was in the barracks. Then I lived in Vallejo from 1986 to present. I've also lived with Ms. Foung in Cordelia.
Question. When did you first meet Ms. Foung?
Answer. I think it was '94.
Question. Okay. Prior to 1996, had you ever made any political contributions?
Answer. No. I think it's only a dollar or whatever on the 1040.
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Question. Had you ever participated in any political activities or political campaigns?
Answer. No. I don't talk good enough for that.
Mr. WILSON. I'm providing the witness with a document which has been marked Exhibit JL–1.
[Landon Deposition Exhibit No. JL–1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of deposition on p. 89.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And if you would take just a moment to review this. Let me just explain what it is. It is a one-page copy of a check, and then at the bottom of the page there is what is headed ''Check Tracking Form,'' and it is a document that was provided to this committee by the Democratic National Committee, and it represents some background information on the check and the contribution that appears to be made by Mr. Landon.
Bearing in mind it's very difficult to see this check, do you recall writing a check to the DNC on February 19, 1996?
Answer. Yes, sir.
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Question. Just if you could, give me the general background to why you came to write this check to the DNC in February of 1996.
Answer. Ms. Foung asked if I would. I did it as a favor to her.
Question. And beyond that, were you aware at the time of why she asked you to write this check?
Answer. No, sir, at the time I didn't even know what the DNC was.
Question. Have you had any subsequent conversations, any conversations since you wrote this check, about why she asked you to write the check to the DNC?
Answer. She said it was for a function in Washington for someone overseas. I assumed at the time it was her brother, but I wasn't positive.
Question. Did she mention to you around the time that you wrote this check that it had something to do with her brother?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have an understanding, did you know whether or not in February of 1996 that you would be reimbursed for this check?
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Answer. She told me I would be.
Question. And what did she tell you?
Answer. Well, she said if I write, I could be reimbursed within a couple of days.
Question. Do you recall whether she gave you any explanation about why you would be writing a check and you would be reimbursed a few days later?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ask her any questions about why she wanted you to write the check and then you would be reimbursed right afterwards?
Answer. No, I figured that was her business.
Question. Now, once you wrote this check, if you could, again, just give me a description how you were reimbursed for the check that you had written.
Answer. It was two $5,000 checks and $2,500.
Question. Actually I'll show you in a moment some checks just to help us walk through this process, but before you actually got the checks, or before you were, in fact, paid back, were there any conversations during which you discussed how you were going to be reimbursed?
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Answer. How?
Question. Yes.
Answer. No, she just told me I would be.
Question. So it's fair to say she told you you would be reimbursed if you wrote the check, and you expected that to happen?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Apart from Ms. Foung making the request for you to write this check, do you remember any other names that came up at the time? Did she describe anything else about this check or this contribution beyond what you have told us so far?
Answer. No, she just said it's something to do with the Democrats, because I asked her what the DNC was. I didn't know. And she said it's just something to do with the Democrats.
Question. Do you know whether she had had any conversations with anybody affiliated with the DNC——
Answer. No.
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Question [continuing]. Before that?
Answer. No.
Mr. WILSON. I'm giving Mr. Landon a document which has been marked JL–2 for the record. It is a copy of two cashier's checks from the Amerasia Bank. And if you could take just a moment to review that.
[Landon Deposition Exhibit No. JL–2 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you remember how you received these checks?
Answer. They were given to me by Ms. Foung.
Question. Do you know how she got the checks?
Answer. No.
Question. Did she tell you at any time whether it was by mail or delivery or anything about how she got the checks?
Answer. No, she just gave me the checks.
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Question. Now, when she gave you these checks, you had previously written a check for $12,500, and the two checks that have your name on them are for a total of $10,000, two $5,000 checks. Did you have any discussions with her about the balance of your contribution? What was your understanding of how you would get paid the balance of the contribution you had made?
Answer. She gave me the difference. There was two $5,000 checks, and then $2,500 she gave me.
Question. And how did she give you that?
Answer. I think it was a check, her personal check.
Question. Had you had any discussions about the reimbursement or the circumstances of the reimbursement before she got the checks and gave you the two $5,000? Actually what I'm trying to find out is did the $2,500 come to you about the same time as these two $5,000 checks?
Answer. Yeah. She handed me those two and I'm pretty sure a personal check for $2,500 all about the same time.
Question. So you were—just going back over what we've looked at, you wrote a check on February 19 of 1996, and you received a check from Amerasia Bank on February 22nd of 1996. So you were reimbursed right after the time that you wrote the check originally?
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Answer. Yes, just a couple of days.
Question. Speaking about or just turning your attention to that same time period, did you know whether Ms. Foung also made a contribution to the DNC?
Answer. I think she did.
Question. And did you have any discussions with her about whether she was making a contribution to the DNC?
Answer. If she was?
Question. Making a contribution in February of 1996?
Answer. No, no.
Question. Did you know that she also wrote a $12,500 check to the DNC?
Answer. She told me that she did.
Question. Did she tell you that at same time that she was asking to you write your check?
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Answer. She might have. I don't remember for sure.
Question. Do you remember when you first knew that she was going to be making a contribution in the same amount that you were making the contribution?
Answer. She didn't tell me what amount, if any, she was going to write it for.
Question. But it's fair to say you knew that approximately the same time that you were writing your check that she was going to be doing the same thing?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And was it your understanding that she was also going to be reimbursed for the check that she wrote?
Answer. That I don't know.
Question. I won't spend too much longer on this, but you wrote a check for $12,500, and you had the understanding that you would be reimbursed. Did you have—do you recall when you first, if you ever did, have a conversation with her when you found out that she was going to get paid back for her contribution?
Answer. My only concern was covering my check. She said, yes, that she was to get reimbursed.
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Question. Do you know whether she had—I mean, do you know whether she had concerns about covering the check that she wrote?
Answer. That I don't know.
Question. When you wrote your check on February 19 of 1996, was there enough money in your bank account to cover the $12,500 check?
Answer. No, there wasn't.
Question. Did you have any conversations with her about there not being enough money in your bank account to cover the $12,500 check?
Answer. I told her that I didn't, but she said just there's a time period in there, and they just wanted to write the check just so it would be at a Washington function, and it would be reimbursed before the check was cashed.
Question. Did she tell you then that your check would be held for a period of a few days?
Answer. That I don't know—well, she figured there would probably be a few days before it was cashed, so I shouldn't have any problem covering the check.
Question. How—do you know how your check was forwarded on to the DNC? Was it sent by mail or Federal Express or?
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Answer. I don't know.
Question. Do you know whether somebody picked it up or somebody did not pick it up?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Have you ever met an individual named Antonio Pan? The last name is spelled P-A-N?
Answer. No.
Question. In February of 1996, apart from your conversations with Ms. Foung about you writing the check, had you had any conversations with anybody about making a contribution to the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. Later in the year, in August of 1996, Ms. Foung made a second contribution, a second contribution for her, to the DNC, and it was for an amount of $10,000. Did you have any conversations with Ms. Foung about the second contribution that she made to the DNC?
Answer. No.
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Question. Did you know that she made a second contribution to the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. Between February and August of 1996—actually let me make that a little bit less broad.
After you had written your check for $12,500, and after you had been reimbursed, did you have any other conversations with Ms. Foung about that check, about that process?
Answer. No. I didn't care.
Question. Well, come to the present, actually. Let's take it right to the present then. When did you first become aware that there might be an issue about the whole process of you writing the check and then you getting reimbursed for the check?
Answer. I think it was the newspaper or something said that they were returning checks to certain people. I'm pretty sure it was the newspaper. I read it in the newspaper.
Question. Something that you saw in the newspaper?
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Answer. Yeah.
Question. And do you recall approximately when that might have been? Not the day, but the month is fine.
Answer. End of '96. Yeah, somewhere around the end of '96.
Question. Did you ever—before you saw something in the newspaper, did you ever get any telephone calls, or did anybody ever make any inquiry of you about these checks?
Answer. Somebody called me at work. They said they were from the Washington newspaper. I don't know if it was the Post, the Times, or something.
Question. And when was that?
Answer. About February of this year.
Question. Do you remember whether they told you their name?
Answer. They told me the name, but I'm not sure. I could only guess right now. I think it was an Asian name, but I'm not sure who it was.
Question. At the time when they called you on the phone, did you make any notes, or did you write anything down?
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Answer. No, they left it on one of those memo pads and asked if I'd call an 800 number somewhere back in Washington.
Question. I'll return in a minute to maybe some other contacts, but have you ever had any discussions with Ms. Foung about any other political contributions that she might have made?
Answer. No.
Question. I should simplify that question and actually make it easy for everybody to understand. Do you know whether she made any other political contributions apart from—I just mentioned two. She made one in February and she made one in August. Do you know of her ever having made any other political contributions?
Answer. No, she didn't mention anything.
Question. Has she ever mentioned contributions to Senator Tom Daschle?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever heard her mention that name before?
Answer. I have no idea who he is.
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Question. Going back into 1996, and I think I've asked you this, so bear with me if I have asked in this form, but did you get any calls or contacts at all in 1996 about the check that you wrote to the DNC?
Answer. Nothing.
Question. Do you know whether Ms. Foung got any telephone calls or letters or any inquiry of any sort about the contributions that she had made to the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever met any of Ms. Foung's relatives?
Answer. Her mother and her brother. I met him twice. Twice—maybe three times, but I know of twice.
Question. And when and where did you meet? When you say ''her brother,'' you are referring to Yah Lin Trie, who is known as Charlie Trie?
Answer. Yeah.
Question. When did you meet him, and where did you meet him?
Answer. He came by her home Christmas one year. I can't remember what—I'm not sure if it was this year. I know when he was there, I had to work, so I'm not sure if it was '95 or '96. And the other time is he flew into San Francisco, and we went down there. I think it was in '95. Might have been '94.
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Question. And do you know why he flew into San Francisco?
Answer. No.
Question. How long did you spend with him on that occasion?
Answer. In San Francisco?
Question. Yes.
Answer. There were—he had some people with him, but she didn't talk to him too much. I mean, what they talked about, I have no idea.
Mr. STEVENS. He just asked you approximately how much time you spent with Charlie on that visit.
The WITNESS. Oh, with Charlie? Two minutes.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And where was it that you met Mr. Trie and the people that were with Mr. Trie?
Answer. It was a hotel in San Francisco. Which one, I don't remember.
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Question. Apart from meeting at the hotel, did you do anything with them at that time?
Answer. We drove around; the beach, Golden Gate Park.
Question. Was this—I don't want to put words in your mouth, but was it a sightseeing type of visit?
Answer. Yeah.
Question. Were they there for business as far as you knew?
Answer. No.
Question. And who all ended up driving around?
Answer. I drove.
Question. So you drove. Who else was in the car?
Answer. A few other people. Ms. Foung and some other people.
Question. And one of them was Mr. Trie, Charlie Trie?
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Answer. No, he wasn't in that car.
Question. Do you remember the names of any of the people that were in the car?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Where was Mr. Trie?
Answer. He stayed at the hotel. Yeah, he stayed at the hotel. We just drove around to different—I think it was Golden Gate Park and the beach.
Question. Do you remember the relationship of Mr. Trie to the people that he was with?
Answer. No.
Question. You mentioned that you have met Ms. Foung's mother on one occasion. Where was that?
Answer. She's come to visit a couple of different times. She came Christmas one year, and she came to her home last year sometime.
Question. Have you ever met Ms. Trie's—or Ms. Foung's sister whose name is Dai Lin?
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Answer. Once. Yeah, I'm sure once.
Question. Where was that?
Answer. I met her in—I met her in Las Vegas. We were going to make a trip over there, and she said he would be there.
Question. And was she there by herself, or did she have family members with her?
Answer. I think her mother was with her. Yeah, her mother was with her.
Question. Was her husband with her at that time?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever met Ms. Outlaw's, Ms. Dai Lin Outlaw's, children?
Answer. Not that I know of, no.
Question. Do you know whether Ms. Foung has ever attended any political events, fund-raisers or events that could be described as political gatherings?
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Answer. Yeah. There was a place, Oakland, Hillsborough around here close. '96, the first part of '96. The President was at somebody's home. She was invited to that.
Question. Who invited her?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. And how did she go from where she lives to Hillsborough?
Answer. I drove her.
Question. And if you could just provide a little bit of background, where did you go?
Answer. I wound up in the parking lot with about—I guess about 100 security people, and a bus came in and drove a bunch of them off.
Question. Do you know where they went?
Answer. Up the street. Don't know.
Question. Do you know what the arrangement was? Why you were in the parking lot?
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Answer. I guess you had to have an invite, and I didn't get one.
Question. I can understand. I've been in some parking lots, too, without invitations.
When you got down to Hillsborough, did Ms. Foung meet with anybody?
Answer. Nobody that I know of.
Question. Do you know whether she was supposed to meet with anybody or talk to anybody?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Once, just to summarize, it is my understanding that you waited in the parking lot until the event was over, and she came back to the car, and you drove back to where you lived; is that correct?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And did she tell you anything about the fund-raiser when you were driving back or about the event?
Answer. She said the President was there, and she got a bottle of wine with his name on it. She didn't mention anything—talking about anything.
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Question. Did she tell you whether or not she met the President?
Answer. She said—let me see—I think she said she got to talk to him, but it was no big deal.
Question. Did she tell you what he said to her?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know whether he made any comments to her about her brother Charlie?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Now, apart from that one event in Hillsborough in California, do you know of any other political event that Ms. Foung went to?
Answer. No.
Question. Did she ever discuss with you her brother Charlie and whether he was appointed to a government commission or not?
Answer. No.
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Question. I've got a short list of names, and not to be mysterious here, I'm just interested in finding out whether you ever met them or you know them. If you do, then I'll ask you more questions. If you don't, then I'll move on.
Have you ever met John Huang?
Answer. No.
Question. On that one name, it's our understanding that Ms. Foung met Mr. Huang at the Hillsborough event while in the parking lot. Were you in the car during the whole time?
Answer. I stayed in the car. She got out, and she was standing there at the bus.
Question. Have you ever heard of an organization called the CHY Corporation, which is C-H-Y?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever had any contacts here, made calls yourself or received calls, from anybody at the Democratic National Committee?
Answer. No.
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Question. Have you ever heard the names David Mercer or Ari Swiller?
Answer. Who?
Question. Ari Swiller?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever visited Ms. Foung's mother in Arkansas?
Answer. No. I tend to stay away from the east coast.
Question. Those of us from the true east coast, it is a long way from our home. That eliminated, I'm not going to ask you a lot of questions about people who live in Arkansas.
Have you ever heard of George Chu, C-H-U?
Answer. No.
Question. He is associated with a company called Da Tung. D-A T-U-N-G. Do you know of that organization?
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Answer. Never heard of it.
Question. Have you ever heard the name Mark Middleton mentioned?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know whether Ms. Foung ever attended any events with her brother?
Answer. No. Nope.
Question. Apart from the two times that you mentioned Mr. Trie being in the same place that you have been, do you know whether Ms. Foung visited Mr. Trie anywhere outside of California in the last 3 or 4 years?
Answer. I don't think so. I'm not sure, but I don't think so.
Question. How often did Mr. Trie call his sister Ms. Foung?
Answer. I can't say for sure. I don't know what year it was, but he called one year, I guess it was around February, but he just wanted to wish her a happy new year. I answered the phone, told him, she's in bed, she's got to work on the graveyard shift.
Question. So, I mean, if you have to characterize contacts, is it fair to say that they spoke fairly infrequently?
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Answer. Yeah. As far as I know; two, maybe three times a year.
Question. Just turning for a minute to Mr. Trie and his background, did Ms. Foung ever discuss what her brother was doing from the time you knew her, from the time you have known her to the present? Did she ever tell what you his job was or what he was doing to make a living?
Answer. She said he owned a restaurant back in Arkansas, and then he was international trade or something like that. Something to do with a tool, some kind of tool.
Question. Did she ever tell you why he got out of the restaurant business?
Answer. No.
Question. And do you know anything about once he got out of the restaurant business what he was doing after that time?
Answer. No.
Question. What was—you mentioned the tool a minute ago. What did she tell about that?
Answer. Something about he was trying to get it made or market it or something of that—I never really paid too much attention when she talks about it.
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Question. On the two occasions that you met him, did he ever tell you what he was doing?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever—and I'll give you a couple of names of some companies just because I'm interested whether you know about them or what you know about them.
The Daihatsu International Trading Company, have you ever heard of that name before?
Answer. I saw it, I think, on an envelope. I can't be positive, but I think it was on an envelope sent to Ms. Foung. I think Charlie wrote her a letter or something.
Question. Did you have any understanding about what Daihatsu—what it did, what the company was all about?
Answer. No. When I first saw it, I thought it was from a car dealer or something.
Question. A company called San Kin Yip International, have you ever heard of them?
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Answer. No.
Question. America-Asia Trade Center, Incorporated?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever heard of Sanyou Science & Technology?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever heard of Premier Advertising?
Answer. No.
Question. Apart from the tool that you were mentioning, do you know anything more about what that was all about, what Mr. Trie was trying to do with the tool that you mentioned?
Answer. I don't know anything else about it. He was trying to get it made or marketed or something to that effect, but I'm not positive.
Question. Did you ever have any conversations with Ms. Foung during which she talked about how her brother was doing financially?
Answer. No.
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Question. Did she ever make any comments to you about how her brother was doing——
Answer. No.
Question [continuing]. Financially or otherwise? In his life?
Answer. She doesn't say too much about him.
Question. Did Mr. Trie, on the occasion you talked to him, did he ever make any comments about knowing President Clinton?
Answer. No.
Question. Did Ms. Foung ever make any comments to you about her brother knowing President Clinton?
Answer. She said he knew him from Arkansas when he was in the restaurant business.
Question. Just sort of casting your mind back to that Hillsborough event, when you drove down and you were coming back, did Ms. Foung make any comments to you about anything the President told her about her brother?
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Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me; I'm going to object. I mean, I've tried to be patient with the questioning, but we have at length—this witness has been asked this question and many similar questions. We got Ms. Foung's testimony. I mean, counsel's not trying to—I don't understand the purpose of these questions. Is it to trap Ms. Foung in an inconsistency? Why are we covering the same exact ground about what was said at the same time, especially multiple times? I guess I am going to enter an objection.
Mr. WILSON. Mr. Stevens, do you have any objections?
Mr. STEVENS. Well, it strikes me as long as it is a relatively quick in-and-out follow-up, appropriate follow-up, now that he has some material that might refresh the witness' recollection as to what may have happened. My guess is the answer is not going to change, but I am happy to let him do it as long as we are not going to replow the whole prior event in Hillsborough, and I don't think we are going to.
Mr. WILSON. No. In fact, that was my last question, and I don't know why we would take up any time discussing it.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Turning your attention to when your contribution was returned, and I should ask you first whether your $12,500 contribution was returned. Was it returned?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. Did you have, prior to that, any conversations with anybody about whether they were going to return, somebody was going to return, your money?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever talk to anybody from the accounting firm of Ernst & Young?
Answer. Not that I can remember. No.
Question. How—when you got your money back, when was the first you realized that you were going to get your money back?
Answer. It was when the reporter called. And they gave me the 800 number to call this woman back from The Washington Post or Washington Times. Surprised me.
Question. Do you know whether that woman's name was Sue Schmidt? Does that ring any bells?
Answer. No.
Question. And what did they tell you?
Answer. They asked me if I knew I was going to get the money back, and I said, nope.
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Question. And then after that, after that exchange, what was the next sort of link in this chain of you getting your money back? Was there any other communication with anybody, or was it when you got the money back?
Mr. STEVENS. This may seem like—you refer to it as ''his money,'' and you're—it may seem small, but I know from talking to him that he doesn't view it as his personal money.
Mr. WILSON. And I am being imprecise there, and I shouldn't do that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Thinking about the $12,500 that was sent to you, when was the next time that you knew anything about this $12,500?
Answer. I got one of those yellow slips from the post office for certified mail, and it showed up in an envelope.
Question. And what was in the envelope?
Answer. A check for twelve-five.
Question. Was there any communication in addition—any additional communication apart from the check? Was it just a check in the envelope?
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Answer. Just a check.
Question. And was there any——
Answer. Well, it was a stub at the top.
Question. Right. But was there any indication as to why the check was in the envelope and why you were getting this check?
Answer. Not that I can remember.
Question. Did you make any inquiries?
Answer. Nope.
Question. Did anybody—after you got the check, did anybody make any contacts with you to explain why the DNC—I should ask you that. Who sent you the check?
Answer. I think it was DNC on the envelope.
Question. Do you remember the account that the check was drawn on?
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Answer. No.
Question. Did anybody contact you at any time to explain why you received a check for $12,500?
Answer. Just the reporter.
Question. When you received the check for $12,500, what did you do with it?
Answer. I put it in the bank.
Question. And did you put it in your account?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what did you do with the money?
Answer. It's still sitting there. I brought it in the first day I saw Mr. Stevens. I wanted to know what to do with it, and he said put it back in your account, and it's back in the bank.
Question. Do you know whether any of the contributions that Ms. Foung made, the $12,500 one that was made at the same time that you made yours, and then there was a later $10,000 one, do you know whether any money was returned to her?
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Answer. I don't think so.
Question. Do you know whether she has been contacted by anybody at the DNC or affiliated with the DNC about these two——
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object to this line of questioning. The same objection I had before. We have been over this. And I don't understand the purpose of questioning this witness.
Mr. WILSON. Well, I think these are new questions and entirely appropriate.
Mr. Stevens do you have any objections?
Mr. STEVENS. I've leave it to you folks. I'm along for the deposition. I'll leave it to you two to work out your own objections. I am happy to be viewed as judge, but I don't think this has reached the point of oppressing the witness. So I am happy to let both of you ask as many questions as you would like, until my boredom threshold kicks in, which is probably not too far away.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did Ms. Foung have any contacts with anybody about the two checks that she had contributed to the DNC?
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Answer. Did anybody call her?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Not that I know of.
Question. Did she ever mention to you any calls from anybody that she received about the contributions she had made?
Answer. If anyone contacted her? No.
Question. Did she ever tell you whether she was going to call anybody about the checks?
Answer. She said she called back to the DNC a few times.
Question. And what happened when she made the calls?
Answer. She didn't go into too much detail. She just said she's waiting to contact somebody else or talk to somebody else about getting the money back, and that was it.
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with her about why you got money back and she didn't get money back?
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Answer. I thought it strange, but I didn't ask any questions.
Question. Did you have any discussions with her about that, though?
Answer. Well, I guess she was curious why I got mine back but she didn't, and that's why she got in touch with the DNC.
Question. And did she tell you at any time what they told her when she had contacts with the DNC?
Answer. No. She just kept calling back.
Question. Do you know whether she was ever told whether she would get her money back or that she would not get her money back?
Answer. She never said.
Question. Has Ms. Foung been in contact with her brother in 1997?
Answer. I'm not sure. I really don't know.
Question. Do you know whether after you were first approached by investigators from this committee, do you know whether Ms. Foung made an attempt to get in touch with her brother?
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Answer. Not that I know of.
Question. Do you know whether she called her mother suggesting—do you know whether she called her mother and discussed the visit of the investigators or whether she might or might not have to go to Washington?
Answer. She calls her mother once in a while, but I don't know what they talk about.
Mr. WILSON. I don't have any further questions for now.
Mr. BALLEN. Could we have——
Mr. STEVENS. Want to take a short break?
Mr. BALLEN. Yes, a 5-minute break.
[Brief recess 2:20 p.m. to 2:30 p.m.]
Mr. WILSON. As I stated before, I've finished with my questions. Mr. Ballen, if you have any questions.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Wilson.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. I just want to take this opportunity again to thank you for coming here, Mr. Landon. I'd just like to ask you two questions if I might.
Has this whole process been a burden on you, sir?
Answer. Well, it's not something I'd want to do every day.
Question. Why is that?
Answer. Well, I guess I'm not the most sociable person. I'd rather be alone.
Question. Do you have any concern about your job and missing time from your job?
Answer. Well, whenever I'm away, I'm not making money. But I had a job when I came to this one. I'll probably have a different one before I retire. So I guess the military gets you used to the idea that you need to work here; next week we'll find some other place for to you go. And I'm used to traveling around.
Question. Is there any danger of you losing your job by missing it?
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Answer. No, I'm a good worker.
Question. So you're not in fear of that?
Answer. No, even when I worked unions, they didn't want my name to come up on the list for me to leave.
Question. Let me ask you this. What's your impression of this whole process, as a citizen?
Answer. It's politics. I try to stay away from it.
Question. I understand, sir.
Answer. Every 4 or 6 years I'll vote for somebody, and if he does a good job, I'll vote for him again.
Question. Thank you very much. I have nothing further.
Mr. WILSON. I have nothing further apart from thanking you very much for being here today.
[Whereupon, at 2:31 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
[The exhibits referred to follow:]
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INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 176 TO 178 HERE
Mr. BENNETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the record, Ms. Foung and Mr. Landon, you're accompanied here today, are you not, by your attorney here in Washington, Mr. Sedwick Sollers; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And do you have the microphones turned on in front of you?
Mr. BURTON. Ms. Foung, can you pull the microphone pretty close, because it does not pick up your voice unless it's fairly close to your mouth?
And you, too, Mr. Landon.
Mr. BENNETT. Is that correct, Ms. Foung?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. OK.
And Mr. Landon, Mr. Sollers is also representing you?
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Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. At any time, if you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask your counsel for advice.
Mr. Sollers, it's nice to see you here.
Mr. SOLLERS. Thank you, Mr. Bennett.
Mr. BENNETT. I want to thank you very much for being here today. As you'll recall, I met you both for the first time, I think, last week and had the opportunity to take your depositions in Sacramento, CA, along with Mr. Kenneth Ballen, the minority counsel; and I believe Mr. Phil Barnett, also minority counsel, was present.
I appreciate your—and for the record, Mr. Jim Wilson of our staff was also there.
I appreciate your being here today. As you know, we have asked that you appear before this committee today to discuss contributions which both of you made to the Democratic National Committee; and then a second contribution, Ms. Foung, which you made to the Presidential re-election campaign of President Clinton.
Let me begin by asking both of you, I believe that this is, in fact, the second time you've been here in Washington in the past week; is that correct?
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Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And I believe that you also agreed to appear and were cooperative with a Federal grand jury and appeared before a Federal grand jury last Friday here in Washington; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. Is that correct, Mr. Landon?
Mr. LANDON. Correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And that was at the request of the task force of the Department of Justice looking into campaign fund-raising violations; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung, you are in fact the sister of Yah Lin Trie, also known as Charlie Trie?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
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Mr. BENNETT. And, Mr. Landon, you have indicated that you previously have met Mr. Trie and that you may have met him on two or three occasions; is that correct?
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung, when was the last time that you saw your brother?
Ms. FOUNG. I believe it was Christmas of 1995.
Mr. BENNETT. And that would be the last time that you met with him in any fashion?
Ms. FOUNG. I—the best I can remember, yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And, Mr. Landon, when was the last time that you saw Mr. Charlie Trie?
Mr. LANDON. It was the same Christmas, 1995.
Mr. BENNETT. And have you spoken with Mr. Trie since that time?
Mr. LANDON. He called, I think it was January, February of this year to wish his sister Happy New Year.
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Mr. BENNETT. And let me ask you one thing, Ms. Foung. When was the last time that you would have spoken with your brother, Charlie Trie?
Ms. FOUNG. I would say it was late August or early September.
Mr. BENNETT. Of this year?
Ms. FOUNG. Of this year.
Mr. BENNETT. And was it in connection with your being called before this committee?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. I believe there may be some followup questions with reference to that, but let me ask you this, do you know where your brother was when he called you within the last 3 weeks?
Ms. FOUNG. I was under the impression it was at Taiwan, he was in Taiwan.
Mr. BENNETT. And did you make an effort to make contact with your brother?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And exactly how did you go about making contact? Because there are a few people trying to make contact with him, that's why I'm asking.
Ms. FOUNG. I asked my mother if my brother ever call her, give him the message I would like for him to call me.
Mr. BENNETT. I believe your brother was at one time interviewed on NBC News and there are a few people in this room who may want to know, if he would return the phone calls if they're contacted. Do you have any reason to believe he might be willing to return their phone calls?
Ms. FOUNG. I don't know.
Mr. BENNETT. OK. Do you know whether or not your brother has any intentions of returning voluntarily to this country? Have you talked with him about that?
Ms. FOUNG. I try to remember the conversation.
Mr. BENNETT. Take your time.
Ms. FOUNG. I mentioned it to him, that the investigator from the committee mentioned to me that, because of statute of limitation or something, he should be back here in a couple years. I mentioned that to him. But I don't think he responded to that.
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Mr. BENNETT. He had no response to your discussion about a statute of limitations?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. And to your knowledge, does he intend to come back to this country within the next few years?
Ms. FOUNG. I'm sure he would like to. But the past few years, he has been overseas the majority of his time and on a regular basis. So it would all depend on where his business is.
Mr. BENNETT. And with respect to his activities abroad of the last few years, that would have been true even during the election year 1996, that he was generally abroad most of the time?
Ms. FOUNG. That's the way I understood.
Mr. BENNETT. How often would he have been in the country during 1996 to your knowledge?
Ms. FOUNG. I don't know his schedule at all. The only time I will know is if he call me and left a message on my machine, if he is passing through San Francisco. The majority of time, he call me from overseas.
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Mr. BENNETT. All right. Directing your attention to February 1996, or in fact, let's go back prior to February 1996. Before you made any contributions about which we'll discuss today, Ms. Foung, had you, to your knowledge, ever made any contributions to any candidates or any political campaigns prior to February 1996?
Ms. FOUNG. Not that I'm aware—I can't remember.
Mr. BENNETT. And were you politically active?
Ms. FOUNG. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Landon, had you, again, prior to February 1996, had you ever made any political contributions to any candidate at that time or campaign prior to February 1996?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. And are you politically active?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. In fact, Ms. Foung, I believe that last week when I took your deposition in California, you indicated to me that you have at least, as of last week, never seen the tape of your brother being interviewed by Tom Brokaw of NBC News; is that correct?
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Ms. FOUNG. That is correct.
Mr. BENNETT. Have you still not seen that tape?
Ms. FOUNG. No. I don't know how to get it.
Mr. BENNETT. I think NBC might be able to accommodate you if you would like, Ms. Foung.
Directing your attention to the time period of February 1996, I believe there came a point in time when both of you prepared checks made payable to the Democratic National Committee; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Landon.
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. What were the circumstances causing both of you to write checks to the Democratic National Committee? Ms. Foung, I'll ask you first.
Ms. FOUNG. My brother called me.
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Mr. BENNETT. If you can speak up a little bit into the microphone, I'm sorry.
Ms. FOUNG. My brother called me, asked if I would advance a check to a certain place at a time. I wasn't familiar, it was DNC.
Mr. BENNETT. And it was the DNC. And what was the purpose of the check for in February 1996? Did your brother tell you that?
Ms. FOUNG. Not really.
Mr. BENNETT. And Mr. Landon, in connection with that same phone call to Ms. Foung, you were, in fact, asked also to prepare a check to the Democratic National Committee; is that correct?
Mr. LANDON. Yes. Ms. Foung asked me.
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung asked you. I'm now asking if we can have exhibit 68 on the screen, please?
And Mr. Chairman, for the record, minority counsel has seen these exhibits and I believe we have an agreement with respect to the presentation of these exhibits here.
Showing you first, Ms. Foung exhibit 68, looking at that exhibit, in fact, I gather you have a TV monitor in front of you. Can you see that? Mr. Sollers can your clients see that check on the screen?
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Mr. SOLLERS. Yes, they can, Mr. Bennett.
[Exhibit 68 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 7 HERE
Mr. BENNETT. Looking at that exhibit, in fact, that was a check which was drawn on your bank account, is it not, Ms. Foung, made payable to the Democratic National Committee?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And that is, in fact, your signature on the check on the lower right-hand corner?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And I ask that exhibit 69 be—and that, I'm sorry, 68, that's in the amount of $12,500, correct?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And was it your understanding that you were going to be reimbursed for this payment?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And did your brother indicate that he would see that you were immediately reimbursed?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And Mr. Landon, we'll now ask that exhibit 69 be placed on the screen.
And again, that is a check dated February 15, 1996. And I think the bottom half of that exhibit for the record, Mr. Chairman, reflects the DNC tracking slip in conjunction with that check. And Mr. Landon, that was drawn on your bank account in the amount of $12,500, as well; is that correct?
[Exhibit 69 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 8 HERE
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. And that is your signature on the check?
Mr. LANDON. Can it get a little closer? I think it is.
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Mr. BENNETT. We'll try.
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, as to both of you preparing these checks, Mr. Landon, did you, yourself, speak with Charlie Trie when he asked his sister to prepare these checks?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. So you did so basically at the instruction of Ms. Foung?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Did either of you at the time when you wrote these checks in the amount of, total amount of $25,000, did you respectively have that kind of money in your bank account at that time?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
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Mr. BENNETT. Did either of you or were either of you aware of the fund-raising event at the Hay-Adams Hotel in Washington, DC, to which I believe Congressman Waxman made reference a few minutes ago in February 1996?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Ms. FOUNG. What was the question?
Mr. BENNETT. Were either of you aware of the fund-raising event for the Democratic National Committee at the Hay-Adams Hotel here in Washington in February 1996?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. And clearly neither of you attended that event, did you?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. LANDON. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung did your brother talk to you about the event at the Hay-Adams Hotel? Did he explain to you why he was seeking to get checks to the Democratic National Committee?
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Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, directing your attention for both of these checks in February 1996, Ms. Foung, first, as to you, you did have an understanding that you were going to be reimbursed, and, in fact, you were very quickly reimbursed; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. I'll ask now if we can have exhibit 70.
We'll go step by step. First of all, I'm going to show you three exhibits, Ms. Foung, exhibits 70, 71, and 72. And each of these checks are, in fact, cashier's checks drawn on the Amerasia Bank from the State of New York in the town of Flushing, I believe it's Flushing, NY. Do you see that there, Ms. Foung?
[Exhibits 70, 71, and 72 follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 9 TO 11 HERE
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And as to each one of these cashier's checks in the amount of $5,000, first as to exhibit 70, can you identify your signature on the bottom of the check—on the back of the check, I think it's on the bottom of the exhibit?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And then looking at exhibit 71, and then 72, again these cashier's checked were in the amount of $5,000, each dated February 22, 1996, a week after you made your contribution; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And you did, in fact, receive that money and were reimbursed as your brother had promised; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. Did you immediately deposit those into your bank account?
Ms. FOUNG. I believe so.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, showing you exhibit 73, that's your bank statement of your account at Travis Federal Credit Union, correct, Ms. Foung?
[Exhibit 73 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 12 HERE
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. For purposes of your own privacy, we agreed last week, Ms. Foung, I want to assure you we have deleted account numbers on that check for purposes of publication, but it does reflect that you deposited $14,500 of the $15,000 you received in cashier's checks; is that right?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And the other $500 you kept for your own personal use?
Ms. FOUNG. I think so.
Mr. BENNETT. All right. At the time that you received the $15,000 in cashier's checks from the Amerasia Bank in Flushing, NY, did you have any knowledge as to who had actually sent the checks to you?
Ms. FOUNG. No. I thought it was my brother arranged it.
Mr. BENNETT. All right. Did your brother ever mention the individual named Antonio Pan?
Ms. FOUNG. Not that I can remember.
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Mr. BENNETT. What was the basis of your believing that this money came from your brother? Why did you believe that it come from your brother?
Ms. FOUNG. Where else could it be?
Mr. BENNETT. Essentially, you felt that he arranged to see to it that you were reimbursed for your check.
Ms. FOUNG. I'm sorry.
Mr. BENNETT. You felt he was keeping his word to you, you were being reimbursed for your check, and I gather you presume these cashier's checks were from your brother.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes. From his business.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, you were, in fact, paid back, Ms. Foung, and I want to now, if I can for a second, move over to Mr. Landon.
Mr. Landon, showing you exhibits 75 and 76, exhibit 75 is also a cashier's check drawn on the Amerasia Bank from Flushing, NY, dated February 22, 1996. Do you see that, sir?
[Exhibits 75 and 76 follow:]
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INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 13 TO 14 HERE
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. And can you identify your signature on the lower portion of that exhibit which is the back of the check?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. And, in fact, you did receive that money?
Mr. LANDON. I did.
Mr. BENNETT. And also looking at exhibit 76, the same thing would apply. You received that cashier's check from the Amerasia Bank and that is your signature on the back, correct?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, your contribution to the Democratic National Committee the week before had been for $12,500 and you had been promised that you would be repaid immediately. Those two cashier's checks total $10,000. How did you get the remaining $2,500?
Mr. LANDON. It came from Ms. Foung.
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Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung, do you agree with that? You gave the other money to Mr. Landon in cash?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Before you wrote the check to the Democratic National Committee, you indicated you had never made a political contribution before and that was also true of Mr. Landon; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. Are you asking me?
Mr. BENNETT. Both of you. Neither of you had been involved in the political process, so this was your very first contribution and your first experience with anything like this, correct?
Ms. FOUNG. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. LANDON. Except for a 1040 box.
Mr. BENNETT. All right checking off the $1 for contributions.
Mr. LANDON. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Perhaps people will encourage more of that in the future, Mr. Landon.
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Now, do either—let me ask you this, I asked Ms. Foung, Mr. Landon, do you know an individual named Antonio Pan?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. I'm going to place on the screen now, if I can, some information. I need to know whether or not you have any knowledge with respect to some of the transactions surrounding these cashier's checks.
And I would ask that essentially there is information which has come to this committee in the course of its investigation thus far, and I would ask that exhibit 77, I believe it's up there now on the screen.
First of all, looking at the information from the Amerasia Bank in the State of New York, sort of tracking where this money came from that came to the two of you, it indicates that an individual named Antonio Pan opened an account at the Amerasia Bank with a deposit of $25,200 the same day of the cashier's checks. And you'll notice that the address at the top there of that account is listed as Hong Kong in the bank records.
Do you see that there, Ms. Foung? The second line down underneath the name, Pan, Antonio, there's reference to Central Hong Kong on the second line.
[Exhibit 77 follows:]
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INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 15 HERE
Ms. FOUNG. OK.
Mr. BENNETT. Do you see that?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And, Mr. Landon, do you see that?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Does that name, again the name, Antonio Pan, does not register with either one of you, correct?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. How about the address in Hong Kong? Do you know anyone at that address, Ms. Foung?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Landon?
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Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. For your purposes, exhibit 78—if we put 78 on the screen—I believe some of these were matters that we went over with you both last week in California; is that correct?
[Exhibit 78 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 16 HERE
Ms. FOUNG. When we were in California.
Mr. BENNETT. Yes.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. I'm trying to go—if you don't understand my questions, Ms. Foung, let me know and Mr. Landon. Exhibit 78 indicates that on the same day that that account was opened by Mr. Pan and some attaching documents would show that within a matter of minutes after the $25,000 was placed into that account, the cashier's checks were written and only $200 was left in the account. Have you all ever received any further funds from that particular account, from that account at the Amerasia Bank in New York?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
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Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. One second, please. Ms. Foung, after you made the $12,500 February contribution to the Democratic National Committee, did there come a time when you had any further political involvement in either attending events or making political contributions?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And what event did you attend? Specifically, directing your attention to March 1996, there was a fund-raising event in Hillsboro, CA; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. At the time, I didn't know it was fund-raising.
Mr. BENNETT. Let me ask you this, there was an event that you attended in which you had the opportunity to meet President Clinton; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And that, I believe, would have been approximately March 1996 in Hillsborough, CA.
Ms. FOUNG. That's right.
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Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Landon, did you attend that event as well?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir. I got as far as the parking lot.
Mr. BENNETT. You got as far as the parking lot.
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. They wouldn't let you go in.
Mr. LANDON. I just drove Ms. Foung.
Mr. BENNETT. I understand. You weren't invited. Ms. Foung was.
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. Ms. Foung, did Mr. Landon wait for you until the event was over?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Did you at that time meet an individual or talk to an individual named John Huang in connection with that event?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. How did you speak with Mr. Huang? What caused you to speak with him?
Ms. FOUNG. What do you mean by that?
Mr. BENNETT. Did you know Mr. Huang prior to March 1996?
Ms. FOUNG. No, I spoke to him over the phone.
Mr. BENNETT. Had you ever heard of Mr. Huang?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. And what was the purpose of his call?
Ms. FOUNG. He asked for some background information for a security clearance to attend that event.
Mr. BENNETT. And exactly who asked you to attend the event given that you haven't been politically active except for writing the check and being reimbursed the month before? Did your brother talk to you about attending this event?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes, he called me.
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Mr. BENNETT. And did he tell you that Mr. Huang would be calling you?
Ms. FOUNG. I don't remember.
Mr. BENNETT. So you were ready for a call from Mr. Huang as a result of your brother putting you on notice that someone would be calling you.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And did your brother ask that you attend the event?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Did you need to make any contribution to attend the event?
Ms. FOUNG. Nobody mentioned anything about it.
Mr. BENNETT. When you attended, you ultimately did attend this event? Did you meet Mr. John Huang at the fund-raising event in Hillsborough, CA?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
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Mr. BENNETT. Was President Clinton also at this event?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, Ms. Foung, you had occasion to especially speak with the President, at that time to President Clinton; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, I think some other Members may have followup questions in terms of your conversations with President Clinton, so I'll move on. But let me ask you this, after this fund-raising event in March 1996, Mr. Landon, did you have any further political involvement in terms of driving Ms. Foung to any other political events?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Have you attended any other political events?
Mr. LANDON. Just this one.
Mr. BENNETT. Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Landon, did anybody ask—did you have to pay to get in here today? Did anybody ask you? Apart from Mr. Sollers, I don't want you to get into that. You may have paid more than the rest of us for that.
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Ms. Foung, I would like to turn your attention now to August 1996. Let me make sure that we're clear, apart from the February 1996 payment of $12,000, $12,500 to which you were reimbursed from the money from Mr. Pan and apart from the March 1996 event in Hillsborough, CA, did you have any other political involvement in 1996 with respect to any other political candidates, to your knowledge?
Ms. FOUNG. No, sir.
Mr. BENNETT. Directing your attention to August 1996, did you in fact at that time make a second contribution at the request of your brother?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, directing your attention to exhibit 93, which I believe is on the screen, exhibit 93, in fact, is a check written out to the Birthday Victory Trust. Do you see that on your check?
[Exhibit 93 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 17 HERE
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And that is, in fact, your check?
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Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. What was the reason for your preparing this check, Ms. Foung?
Ms. FOUNG. My brother called me to see if I would advance the check.
Mr. BENNETT. And was there indication that you were going to be immediately reimbursed as you were for the first check?
Ms. FOUNG. Say that again.
Mr. BENNETT. Was there an understanding that you were going to pay this money yourself or you were going to get the money back?
Ms. FOUNG. I would be reimbursed, yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And who told you that you were going to be reimbursed?
Ms. FOUNG. My brother.
Mr. BENNETT. And did he indicate how quickly he was going to reimburse you?
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Ms. FOUNG. No. But I trust he will take care of it.
Mr. BENNETT. And, in fact, did you have $10,000 in your account at that time to pay to the Presidential Victory Trust?
Ms. FOUNG. I might. I might not. I couldn't remember.
Mr. BENNETT. We'll go through some records in a minute. But, in fact, you were reimbursed the very same day, weren't you, when you wrote the check?
Ms. FOUNG. According to the bank statement, yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And I note that on that check, Ms. Foung, along with making it payable to the Birthday Victory Trust, were you aware of any birthday celebration or fund-raising event in connection with the President's birthday in August 1996?
Ms. FOUNG. Not very much, not, in fact, not really.
Mr. BENNETT. I'm sorry did you, in fact, or were you invited to attend an event in New York City with connection with this event?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. And I notice that the word ''Federal'' is written on the bottom left-hand corner of the check that's on the screen now. Do you see where the word ''Federal'' is written on the lower left-hand corner?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Why did you write the word ''Federal'' on that check?
Ms. FOUNG. I was told.
Mr. BENNETT. You were told by whom?
Ms. FOUNG. By my brother.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, looking at exhibit 94, on the projector screen, in fact, there is a record of a wire transfer to you from the Riggs National Bank, which, in fact, went into your account that same day in August 1996. Is that correct, Ms. Foung?
[Exhibit 94 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 18 HERE
Ms. FOUNG. The document there, yes.
Mr. BENNETT. And according to your records, you were immediately reimbursed the same day for this $10,000 check, as your brother promised; is that right?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Now, do you know an individual named Ng Lap Seng, sometimes known as Mr. Wu, Ms. Foung?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Have you ever heard the name before?
Ms. FOUNG. Not before the deposition.
Mr. BENNETT. Do you know the individual—that individual from whose account this money apparently came into your account? Did you have any knowledge of the transfer of money from Riggs National Bank here in Washington to your account in connection with Ng Lap Seng?
Ms. FOUNG. No. My brother does do business in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, all different places. So I assume that was his bank back there, that he uses.
Mr. BENNETT. I am going to ask if you can now look at exhibit 96 and ask if you have any knowledge or information concerning some of the financial transactions. I know it is somewhat complicated, Ms. Foung, but if you will just look at this to make sure that you cannot provide the members of the committee with any information.
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There was, in fact, almost $200,000 wired from the Bank of China in Macao to the Watergate branch of the Riggs National Bank. Did your brother at any time in his conversations make reference, if not to Mr. Wu or Ng Lap Seng, if he made reference to the Riggs National Bank at any time with you?
[Exhibit 96 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 19 HERE
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. It was sent from the account of a company on the document—again, if you can look closely at it, a company called Investimento E Fomento to the account of your brother and Ng Lap Seng. Do you have any knowledge of the company Investimento E Fomento?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Have you ever heard your brother talk about that company?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. You can say—apparently according to the records of this committee, available to both the majority and minority Members, it was from this account that the $10,000 was wired to you.
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Finally, Ms. Foung, if I can put up exhibit 97 on the chart, and looking at exhibit 97, just again for your purposes, you will note that it does, in fact, indicate that the same day, on August 15, 1996, that you wrote out the check to President Clinton's birthday party at your brother's request; that you received the wire transfer in that amount. Do you see that there?
[Exhibit 97 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 20 HERE
Ms. FOUNG. I remember in the past when we discussed this, the check was written first. I guess it just come to my bank at the same time.
Mr. BENNETT. Finally, Ms. Foung, I will show you exhibit—I think it is marked C–28. Just so you understand, it is evidence before this committee at this time, in terms of the flow of money into a foreign account into an account here into this country, and ultimately into your account, from the Bank of China over to your brother and through accounts over to your account.
Has your brother ever spoken to you about any foreign bank accounts?
[Exhibit C–28 follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 21 HERE
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Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Has your brother ever discussed with you the source of money in terms of how he would have access to any amounts of money in terms of international wire transfers?
Ms. FOUNG. No. But for business purpose, I am sure there is a reason.
Mr. BENNETT. I believe my time has now expired, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Ms. Trie.
Thank you, Mr. Landon.
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. We now have a vote on. What I would like to do, if it is all right with the minority, is to keep the questioning going; and those of us who want to run and vote right now, may. We will put somebody else in the Chair temporarily while I go vote, and then I will come back and then they can go vote, if that is all right.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Chairman, I plan to pursue the questioning, and I have to vote and I prefer to start and not be interrupted. So if you would permit, let's vote and I will get back here as soon as I possibly can.
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Mr. BURTON. The Chair will stand in recess until the call of the gavel.
[Recess.]
Mr. BURTON. The committee will come to order. When we recessed, the general counsel for the committee, Mr. Bennett, concluded his first half-hour. We will now yield to the ranking minority member for his half-hour.
Mr. WAXMAN. Ms. Foung and Mr. Landon, welcome to our hearing today. I appreciate your being here. As I mentioned to you during the recess, I am also from California and lived in Sacramento for a period of time. It's a lovely place, and was also a long distance to travel to be here.
When lawyers go into a court of law, if there is something not in dispute they have something they call ''stipulate.'' In other words, they don't fight over every fact. They say we will stipulate to this fact. And we could have stipulated to everything you had to say as factual.
The Senate had a hearing. I don't know if either of you have been following the Senate hearings, but they had a hearing on July 29th.
Ms. Foung, are you—were you watching these Senate hearings? Are you familiar with them?
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Ms. FOUNG. Not until after I was involved.
Mr. WAXMAN. Well, they had a hearing on the same subject, whether your brother had given money to pay for contributions that others had made. And they had a hearing on July 29th and had two witnesses, that I mentioned in my opening statements, testify; and I have to say that you have less knowledge about this whole business than those two witnesses. So we learned more than what you have told us.
We already knew, in fact, what you have said to us about the fact that contributions had been made and that your brother was responsible for reimbursing the people that made the contributions. The reason I raise that issue is, it just seems to me a real waste to have this hearing, have you come all the way from Sacramento, CA, and tell the committee information that we already know about.
We ought to be advancing our knowledge about the campaign finance matters rather than spend taxpayers' dollars to learn what we already knew.
Ms. Foung, I would like to begin by cutting to the heart of the committee's investigation. On June 20th, Chairman Burton stated on the floor of the House—and I want to quote—he said, ''We are investigating a possible massive scheme of funneling millions of dollars in foreign money into the U.S. electoral system. We are investigating allegations that the Chinese Government at the highest levels decided to infiltrate our political system,'' end quote.
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Ms. Foung, Charlie Trie is your brother. You have known him your whole life. Do you have any reason to believe that he is an agent or spy of the Chinese Government?
Ms. FOUNG. No, sir, not at all.
Mr. WAXMAN. Do you have any reason to believe he is part of a massive scheme by the Chinese Government to influence our political system?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. WAXMAN. And I assume, Mr. Landon, you wouldn't answer any differently?
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. WAXMAN. As you testified this morning, I think you gave us good testimony, very direct. I had heard both of you had done that in your depositions, from my staff who were out there in California for those depositions, and you were straightforward. And I thought to myself, what if my sister had been called to answer questions about me?
We are very close, but I don't think she knows much about me, but I know how she would react if somebody called me a spy. How do you feel about these kinds of accusations?
Ms. FOUNG. I have a lot of respect for this place, but I really felt my brother was overestimated, and the—whatever you call the Government or public official is underestimated, to believe that he could influence a big country, the biggest country in the world, like this by—according to the newspaper, his biggest contribution was $600,000.
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And knowing him for all my life, he has been nothing but a wonderful person to me, to everybody else. He would do anything for people, never expect anything in return. He has done everything that I asked for, or I don't ask for it, to help me, to take care of me as a little sister.
So I really don't know what to say about it.
Mr. WAXMAN. You don't believe he is a spy. You don't know whether he is a spy, but you certainly don't believe he is a spy?
Ms. FOUNG. He is not material for that kind of thing. Ninety percent of the time he left the house, he couldn't even find his key. He is not a spy material, I guarantee you.
Mr. WAXMAN. Let me ask you some questions about the money.
The majority has tried to track down the source of the money that you were paid by your brother. And their effort has yielded the same results that the Senate efforts yielded last July. The money that appears to have come from a Bank of China account in Macao, and this bank account apparently belonged to Ng Lap Seng. Do you know Ng Lap Seng, sometimes called Mr. Wu?
Ms. FOUNG. No, I don't; never heard of him.
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Mr. WAXMAN. Have you ever met or talked to him, to your knowledge?
Ms. FOUNG. Not as I can remember.
Mr. WAXMAN. My understanding is, he might have been a business associate of your brother. Do you have any knowledge about your brother's business dealings with him?
Ms. FOUNG. Not to him. I just—I was under the impression that my brother was a successful businessman, and I was happy for him; but other than that, the detail of his business or what does he do when he travels is really none of my business, so I never really asked that question.
Mr. WAXMAN. Do you have any knowledge at all about the source of money that was used to reimburse your contribution?
Ms. FOUNG. No. I thought it was his, or part of the business. I really don't understand all this.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Landon, those same questions?
Mr. LANDON. The source?
Mr. WAXMAN. Do you know Mr. Ng Lap Seng?
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Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. WAXMAN. To your knowledge, you never met him?
Mr. LANDON. Never.
Mr. WAXMAN. Do you know the source of the contribution, other than Ms. Foung's brother?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. WAXMAN. One of the contributions that you made for her brother was a contribution for $12,500 on February 18, 1996. This contribution was for a fund-raiser at the Hay-Adams Hotel in Washington, DC, on February 19th.
Did either of you attend that fund-raiser at the Hay-Adams Hotel in Washington?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Ms. FOUNG. No, sir.
Mr. WAXMAN. In the Senate hearings, two witnesses testified you made contributions for the same event after being asked by your brother to do so, and these witnesses were Yue Chi and Xi Ping Wang. These witnesses also were reimbursed for these contributions. Do you know either of these two people?
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Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. WAXMAN. Now, in the Senate hearing, these two witnesses explained why they were asked to make the conduit contribution. These witnesses both said that they were asked to make their contributions so that a man named Ng Lap Seng could attend the fund-raiser and meet the President.
Did your brother tell you that your contribution was so that Ng Lap Seng could go to the Hay-Adams Hotel fund-raiser?
Ms. FOUNG. No, not at all. We didn't even know—I didn't even know anything about the fund-raising event.
Mr. WAXMAN. Did he give you any explanation at all about why he was asking you to make the contribution?
Ms. FOUNG. I cannot remember the exact conversation we had, but it seems like the check has to be in by a certain day or something like that; and at the time, to me, there is no difference than I advanced the check for him for a utility bill or a house payment. I didn't understand anything about the fund-raising or anything like that.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Landon, did you get any explanation of why you were asked to write this check?
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Mr. LANDON. I—it was stated to me it was for a Washington, DC, function, and it was coming from someone overseas that wasn't able to be there in time.
Mr. WAXMAN. Did you talk to Mr. Trie directly or just through Ms. Foung?
Mr. LANDON. Ms. Foung.
Mr. WAXMAN. I would like to ask you briefly whether you have knowledge about your brother's activities that you think would be useful to this committee. Let me ask you—I guess you have said this before—how often do you talk with him?
Ms. FOUNG. Talk to him directly, I want to say three, four times a year. A lot of times he calls me he left messages on the answering machine to say, I am just calling you to say hello, because I work all the time and because the time difference with overseas, he never knows whether I am home or not. So he just occasionally called to let me know that he is fine or if I am fine.
Mr. WAXMAN. One of the companies your brother is involved in is the Sin Kin Yap Corp. Have you ever heard of it?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. WAXMAN. Have you ever heard of it?
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Mr. LANDON. Never heard of it.
Mr. WAXMAN. Another company he is associated with is the America-Asia Trade Center. Have you ever heard of this?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. LANDON. Never heard of it.
Mr. WAXMAN. Have you ever discussed any of your brother's business trips to Hong Kong or China with him?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Landon?
Mr. LANDON. Never spoke to him about it.
Mr. WAXMAN. Do you even know the names of your brother's business associates?
Ms. FOUNG. I am sorry?
Mr. WAXMAN. Do you even know the names of your brother's business associates?
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Ms. FOUNG. No.
Back in 1995—no, back in Christmas of 1994, I went to Little Rock to visit my mother, and he took me to his office and I met all of his employees. There was about 1 in 10—maybe 10 or 15 of them, but I don't remember it—I don't remember it.
Mr. WAXMAN. Let me switch over to your knowledge of your brother's political activities.
First, let me ask you, you are not politically active yourselves, are you?
Ms. FOUNG. No, sir.
Mr. LANDON. No.
Mr. WAXMAN. Do you discuss politics with your brother?
Ms. FOUNG. No, never.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Landon?
Mr. LANDON. Never.
Mr. WAXMAN. Have you ever discussed with your brother his involvement in President Clinton's 1992 and 1996 campaigns?
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Ms. FOUNG. Not in depth. He might have mentioned—he never even emphasized that much about they were good friends or anything like that.
Mr. WAXMAN. He didn't think he could impress you?
Ms. FOUNG. The—not really, not really in depth. We really didn't have the time to talk about things like that.
Mr. WAXMAN. Did you have any knowledge that your brother was trying to raise money for the President's legal expense trust?
Ms. FOUNG. No, I didn't know.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Landon?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. WAXMAN. Aside from the two times that your brother asked you to make campaign contributions for him, do you have any knowledge at all about your brother's political fund-raising activities?
Ms. FOUNG. No, not at all.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Landon, you have heard this question I just asked. Is your answer the same?
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Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir, it is.
Mr. WAXMAN. In fact, Mr. Landon, I believe that you testified at your deposition that when you made your contribution, you didn't even know what the initials ''DNC'' stood for; is that correct?
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Chairman, after asking these questions, I really must say that I am really at a loss as to why we called these witnesses here today. Months ago, the Senate heard testimony from witnesses who knew a lot more about Charlie Trie's activities than these two witnesses.
We have spent millions of dollars on this investigation. We have been at work nearly a year with no hearings. If this is all we have to show for it, I find it hard to see how the taxpayer is being well served.
I still have time, and I want to yield to Mr. Condit for some questions.
Mr. BURTON. Will the gentleman yield real briefly for me?
Mr. WAXMAN. Well, we have our time allocated.
Mr. BURTON. That's fine.
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Mr. WAXMAN. And I think we should pursue it here.
Mr. CONDIT. Thank you, Mr. Waxman. I would like to first thank both the witnesses for being here today. I know you are here at great personal inconvenience, and I appreciate your being here very much.
I have just a few questions and they will go pretty quick. I would like to first start with Ms. Foung and go through the series of questions with her and then, Mr. Landon, I will get to you.
Ms. Foung, have you been asked for information by any other investigative body or have you testified before any other body besides this committee?
Ms. FOUNG. No. No.
Oh, I am sorry. The grand jury, I——
Mr. CONDIT. So, on the record, you have appeared before the grand jury, the Department of Justice grand jury; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. CONDIT. Have other's requests for information overlapped with requests by this committee? In other words, are they asking for the same questions or the same types of questions or the same material that we have asked this morning?
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Ms. FOUNG. You mean besides the investigator that came over and the attorney?
Mr. CONDIT. The other——
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. CONDIT. Are we asking similar questions, the same questions that you have already been asked by the Department of Justice and the grand jury?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. CONDIT. So you—on the record, you are saying that the questions we are asking this morning are similar or the same as you have been asked by the other bodies; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. CONDIT. Can you estimate for me how much time you have spent responding to this committee's requests for information?
Ms. FOUNG. Do you mean including the flying back and forth to DC?
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Mr. CONDIT. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. FOUNG. Just coming here each time we will start 7 a.m., and we get here 7 p.m., and same thing for the returns, about an 8-hour flight. I have been to DC twice; and I try to minimize the amount of time that I have lost on my job, so I usually do it in 2 days, coming 1 day and returning 1 day.
We had two trips here. Then we had the deposition in my attorney's office, numerous phone calls, and try to gather together information that was requested.
I am sorry. I didn't keep a log of it, account of it.
Mr. CONDIT. Would you say that it is a lot of time? How much work have you missed? Have you calculated how much work you have missed because of being deposed?
Ms. FOUNG. Five days.
Mr. CONDIT. Five days?
Ms. FOUNG. Minimum, yes.
Mr. CONDIT. Have you been reimbursed by anyone for that loss of time and for your cost of being here?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
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Mr. CONDIT. Has being here and testifying before this committee, appearing before the grand jury caused you any problems at your job?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. CONDIT. Can you clarify for us what those problems might be?
Ms. FOUNG. I had a perfect attendance at my job for every year that I was there; and now I have to take time off, which I feel terribly about it and the loss of wages, or my vacation time I have to use. It is just no use to get into.
Mr. CONDIT. Can you respond to all the publicity that you have received because you have been here? How has that affected your life and your children's life?
Ms. FOUNG. That's the reason I requested not to be broadcast or anything because I never was looking for—never cared for publicity, and I would rather just be my own—I have very private life. I would just rather keep it that way. And since I was forced to come here, I tried to limit the damage in that respect as minimum as I could.
Mr. CONDIT. Have you—obviously you have incurred some expense by coming here and all the things that you have had to do for this committee. Have you—can you tabulate for us or give us an estimate of how much you have spent in preparing materials, legal counsel, travel, hotel expense? Can you tell us how much approximately you have spent?
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Ms. FOUNG. To the best—I understood all the expense, as far as the travel and hotel is being—is paid for. Right? I mean, I haven't seen the reimbursement, but I understood it will be reimbursed.
Mr. CONDIT. Can you clarify that for me? Who is reimbursing you for the cost of that?
Ms. FOUNG. My last trip, I understand, will be reimbursed by the Department of Justice and this trip will be reimbursed by the committee or something.
Mr. BURTON. Point of order. Just for the gentleman's edification, the committee is going to be paying their expenses as part of the expenses of the trip for all witnesses.
Mr. CONDIT. Well, let me finish this and I may have an attitude or a problem or a suggestion or a question about that.
Let me finish up with Mr. Landon.
I—first of all, Ms. Foung, thank you very much. I know this has been a hardship on you and I appreciate you being here very much and I appreciate you trying to be as candid as you can with the questions.
I would like to ask Mr. Landon, if I can, have you ever been asked by any other official investigative body to testify or provide information on matters being investigated by this committee? In other words, are we duplicating the other committees? Can you respond to that?
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Mr. LANDON. Some of the questions are the same, but I am talking a lot less here.
Mr. CONDIT. Are you—can you tell me, identify for me, what other committees you have appeared before?
Mr. LANDON. The Department of Justice, I went before the grand jury, and the attorneys in Sacramento during the deposition.
Mr. CONDIT. And can you clarify for me, maybe in a little more detail, have there been requests for information of this committee that overlapped the requests of the other bodies?
Mr. LANDON. Some of the questions are close to being the same.
Mr. CONDIT. Have you provided documents, information or testimony to this committee that you have previously provided to other investigative bodies? The answer would be, yes, I take it?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. CONDIT. Can you estimate how much time you have spent in responding to requests from this committee?
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Mr. LANDON. The same as Ms. Foung.
Mr. CONDIT. She has missed 5 days of work and travel time. Was that similar?
Ms. FOUNG. Four to—4 days travel time, yes, sir.
Mr. CONDIT. Time off work?
Mr. LANDON. I took vacation.
Mr. CONDIT. Heck of a way to spend your vacation.
Have you incurred expense in responding to demands from this committee?
Mr. LANDON. Rooms, taxis and so forth.
Mr. CONDIT. Are you being reimbursed?
Mr. LANDON. I haven't.
Mr. CONDIT. Has anyone indicated to you that you are being reimbursed?
Mr. LANDON. The possibility was mentioned, but I don't know by who.
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Mr. CONDIT. Do you think you should be reimbursed?
Mr. LANDON. Well, I don't know.
Mr. CONDIT. Well, Mr. Chairman, I just want to reiterate my earlier statement regarding the unnecessary burden that I think we have placed on these two individuals and our ranking member, Mr. Waxman, I think, pointed out earlier that he is not real sure why these two people are here, because in all due respect to them, and I don't mean this in any bad way at all, but they really have not added anything new that we didn't already know.
Once again, I think that we have indicated—it indicated to us that we have sort of flattened out here. This has not offered us any new information that we didn't already know and I think it is a great expense to these two people, not to mention the inconvenience on their personal life to have to come here. I am real saddened that we have started this hearing off like this. It proves that we could have taken the other road and the other road would have been to have been cooperative and not duplicate what the other body is doing, and I think this is evidence that we have got massive problems with duplication of witnesses and information and on and so forth.
The other thing I would like to add, what is going to be the policy? Mr. Waxman, can I——
Mr. WAXMAN. Well, let me ask this of you. I think we ought to have an answer to that question, but I do want to yield to other Members while these witnesses are here——
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Mr. CONDIT. OK.
Mr. WAXMAN [continuing]. To pursue any matters they want to ask of the witnesses. Then we ought to pursue from the chairman what our policy is going to be.
Mr. CONDIT. OK.
Mr. WAXMAN. Because we are clearly inconveniencing a lot of people and causing them to spend money.
Mr. Lantos, I want to yield to you.
Mr. LANTOS. Thank you very much, Mr. Waxman.
We are dealing with conduit payments in the 1996 Presidential race, and as I raised the point yesterday, a company in Pennsylvania, a landfill company, paid $8 million in fines for making illegal conduit payments.
Now, one of the items that the other side repeatedly raises is that we are talking about the notion that, well, maybe there are problems, but everybody does it and, of course, they very self-righteously say, but of course, everybody doesn't do it.
Well, on the front page of the Washington Post, the story details, how the Dole-Kemp campaign received $80,000 in conduit payments, the Clinton-Gore campaign only $10,000 in conduit payments from this landfill company. And then it goes on to tell us that six Republicans: Senator Specter, Senator Santorum, Senate candidates Haytaian and DuHaime and Congressmen Fox and Paxon combined received $35,000 and two Members of Congress, who are Democrats, Mr. Baucus of Montana and Mr. Pallone, received a total of $4,000.
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Now, it seems to me that there are two ways of dealing with these issues and with these facts. It so happens that having served with former Vice Presidential Candidate Jack Kemp and with Vice President Gore, those two are good friends of mine. I think Mr. Clinton and Mr. Dole would also qualify as friends.
There is no doubt in my mind that not one of those four gentlemen would, for a moment, have entertained the notion of having their campaign committees receive conduit payments, for two reasons:
First, because they are honest people, and this is against the law. And I would bet my bottom dollar that Dole and Clinton and Gore and Kemp have the same view that every Member of this body has, that we would not engage in illegal transactions. Receiving conduit payments is an illegal transaction.
The second reason why they would never do it, of course, is because this is absurd and counterproductive. This can cost them the election, unbelievable embarrassment afterwards as we are now seeing.
It seems to me that this morning I got my answer as to whether this is Alice in Wonderland or the Theater of the Absurd.
I want to express my apology to the two of you. You are two fine citizens. You should be more politically involved and active than you have been. I am a little disappointed that you are as apolitical as you obviously are. You should be making contributions to the party of your choice. You should support candidates vigorously of your choice and that's really the only disappointment I have; that you are wonderful people, hard-working, honest and all that, but you are nonpolitical and perhaps—and perhaps this experience will make you want to become politically more active, so such Theaters of the Absurd will not be inflicted upon others.
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I might mention, by the way, that the party you attended, Ms. Foung—and you got to the parking lot, I understand, Mr. Landon—in the town of Hillsborough is my hometown, but I was not invited to the party. So I met neither of you; nor the President nor anybody else who was at that event.
I must say that this hearing is so profoundly embarrassing and disappointing. Not a single shred of new fact or evidence has come forward and here we are going through this circus.
Now, since the circus also relates to the Bank of China, I would like to request that a letter to our ranking minority member from Professor Naughton of the University of California at San Diego be admitted in the record.
Mr. BURTON. Reserving the right to object, may I see the letter, please?
Mr. LANTOS. You certainly may.
This letter outlines Professor Naughton's understanding of the Bank of China which, of course, is one of the large international banks on the face of this planet with 12,300 offices in China, 525 branches overseas, including two branches in New York City and one in California.
Presumably, Professor Naughton says, anyone, including you or I could walk into the New York branch on Madison Avenue and open an account.
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I think it is sort of important for all of us who are looking at these issues with a degree of maturity and knowledge and understanding is to recognize that while there are probably not many in the Congress who are as opposed to the policies of the current China—Government in China as I am, it is important to realize that the Bank of China, quoting again, ''it is unreasonable to assume that the Chinese Government or its officials would have direct knowledge of any individual wire transfer or any other transaction from an individual or corporate commercial account at the Bank of China. Such transfers are routine and occur millions of times each day at the bank.''
There is nothing to prevent the Chinese Government from using the Bank of China to transfer funds internationally, but it is equally true that the Chinese Government could just as well use any other international commercial bank for the same purpose.
Now, the point of my raising this issue is very simple. I detest the Government in China. Unlike some—many of my colleagues here, I have voted against Most Favored Nation treatment and I will vote for the package of anti-Beijing measures that we will be debating on the floor soon. And it was my resolution that resulted in the President of Taiwan being allowed to get a visa and come to Cornell to obtain his honorary doctorate. So I have very little good to say about the Chinese Government. But I think it is part and parcel of this attempt to blow smoke and create this mysterious impression that since the transfer came from the Bank of China, this, chances are, could be Chinese Government money.
Well, it could be, but it could just as well be money of an American business corporation or a citizen of any country who chose to engage in the transfer.
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I again ask, Mr. Chairman, to place the letter in the record.
Mr. BURTON. Without objection, so ordered.
[The letter referred to follows:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 22 TO 24 HERE
Mr. LANTOS. Final observation.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. LANTOS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. I would just like to clarify one point before we go to our next questioner, and that is that the grand jury that is investigating campaign finance problems came to us after we had started our investigation and found these witnesses and asked us for the information pertaining to Ms. Foung, Mr. Landon and Mr. Wang.
We provided them with the information. The Justice Department asked us for information we had and not the other way around. And also, the information that goes to the grand jury is secret and it is not a two-way street. We gave to them. They cannot give to us.
Mr. Cox, you are recognized for 10 minutes.
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Mr. COX. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just a brief amount of time unlike the preceding questioners, so I will try and be brief in my questions and permit you to answer as fully as you can.
On this last point, it is the case, is it not, that when this committee's investigators contacted both of you, you had not been contacted by either the FBI or the Justice Department?
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. COX. But now that this committee has brought your identity as Charlie Trie's sister to the attention of the authorities, they have contacted you; is that right?
Let me rephrase the question. Have you been contacted by the FBI or the Justice Department?
Ms. FOUNG. No, not by those two agencies.
Mr. LANDON. The Department of Justice asked for us to appear.
Mr. COX. So you have been contacted by the Justice Department, Mr. Landon. But you have not?
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Mr. LANDON. Well, it was just a subpoena to go before the grand jury.
Ms. FOUNG. Oh, so the FBI and Justice Department are the same thing? I thought they were two different——
Mr. COX. Have you been contacted by either one?
Ms. FOUNG. The Justice Department, yes.
Mr. COX. The Justice Department. OK. But we contacted you before they did and they did not contact you before we did?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. COX. All right. I just want to straighten that out.
I wonder if I might ask you, Ms. Foung, when you met President Clinton, did he say anything to you about your brother?
Ms. FOUNG. Very briefly, something like the—your brother has been a—I don't remember—a good friend or a close friend or a long-time friend for 20 years or two decades.
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Mr. COX. He said that he had been a close friend of your brother's for 20 years?
Ms. FOUNG. I don't remember if it was a good friend or a close friend.
Mr. COX. Either a good friend or a close friend?
Ms. FOUNG. Or long-time friend, something like that.
Mr. COX. All right. You said a moment ago that you think people overestimate your brother. What do you mean by that?
Ms. FOUNG. The brother—my brother, the one I know, is just a down-to-earth, good person.
Mr. COX. Do you mean that he is not politically sophisticated?
Ms. FOUNG. Not as I know of.
Mr. COX. Do you think it is odd for somebody who is not very sophisticated to be friends with the President of the United States?
Ms. FOUNG. They both came from the same place. They met in his business as a restaurant owner.
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Mr. COX. But your brother is not the kind of person who would be friends with other political figures?
Ms. FOUNG. He never mentioned anything to me about it.
Mr. COX. So you wouldn't say, for example, that he would be tight with officials of the Communist party or the People's Republic of China?
Ms. FOUNG. I have no knowledge of anything like that.
Mr. COX. Would it surprise you if he were?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. COX. Do you know how many legal political parties there are in the People's Republic of China?
Ms. FOUNG. I know there is Communist Red China and Taiwan is the Republic of China.
Mr. COX. Right. In the People's Republic of China, there is just the Communist party, is that your understanding, as far as political parties go?
Ms. FOUNG. That's all I know of.
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Mr. COX. So if you were friends with government officials in China, you would be friends with members of the Communist party, presumably, right?
Ms. FOUNG. Do they have a Congress party?
Mr. COX. Communist party. That's who runs the People's Republic of China.
Ms. FOUNG. It is such a big country. I don't know, how does it work? I really have no knowledge of that country. I was born in Taiwan.
Mr. COX. Earlier on, you were asked whether your brother might have any involvement with Communist officials in China, and I wonder—and I took it, you said, that you think not?
Ms. FOUNG. Not that I am aware of. He never mentioned anything like that to me.
Mr. COX. Would it surprise you that he put out a bio on himself just a couple of years ago that says, ''Over the course of time I have developed a personal relationship with a number of government officials throughout China''?
Ms. FOUNG. I have no comment.
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Mr. COX. Is that a surprise to you?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. COX. It comes as a surprise?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. COX. Is it a surprise to you that he has moved to the People's Republic of China?
Ms. FOUNG. Is it surprise to me what?
Mr. COX. That he moved there, that he lives there now? Had he ever lived there before?
Ms. FOUNG. I understand he spent a lot of time there for business reasons.
Mr. COX. Was it ever his residence, his home?
Ms. FOUNG. His residence is in Little Rock, AR, I thought.
Mr. COX. And he is a U.S. citizen, isn't that right?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes, that's correct.
Mr. COX. So his moving to the People's Republic of China, is that unusual?
Ms. FOUNG. The way I understood it, it was for business reasons, for business needs.
Mr. COX. Now, you have talked to him a few times on the telephone and have done so regularly over the years. And when he talks to you, he is calling lately from the People's Republic of China; isn't that right?
Ms. FOUNG. I don't know. I only talked with him twice this year.
Mr. COX. Let me put up on the screen, if I might, the picture that shows where the money came from that you ended up giving to the DNC.
You're familiar with what's in front of you on the TV screen, the $200,000 moved from the Bank of China in Macao, as the ranking member said—and he's no more sure of it than I am, but it's our suspicion that this money came from Ng Lap Seng, that $200,000 moved from the Bank of China eventually to you.
Are you familiar with how that works now, having had it all covered in the weeks since we've contacted you?
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Ms. FOUNG. No. The screen is, the screen that you come up was, I'm looking at it. That's all my knowledge.
Mr. COX. You don't remember the questions that Mr. Bennett asked you?
Ms. FOUNG. Could you repeat that question?
Mr. COX. Didn't you just go over these transactions earlier?
Ms. FOUNG. Yeah, we went over this screen before.
Mr. COX. Yes. Thank you very much.
Now, you therefore understand at this point that you and Mr. Landon laundered $35,000?
Ms. FOUNG. Could you repeat that?
Mr. COX. Are you familiar with these transactions now?
Ms. FOUNG. I only am familiar with my part.
Mr. COX. Yes. And do you think that your part involved giving money through your checking account that wasn't yours?
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Ms. FOUNG. Like I testified earlier, the only knowledge I have is, I have——
Mr. COX. You've been granted immunity, so we're not trying to trip you up.
Ms. FOUNG. No, you're not, but it seems like you're putting words in my mouth that I have no idea of any laundering activity or anything like that.
To me, I simply did my brother a favor; and I will do things for him because he's done things for me over time as a family.
Mr. COX. Ms. Foung, I want to believe, as the minority has suggested, that you're an honest person.
Ms. FOUNG. I am.
Mr. COX. And everyone in this room looking at this and understanding these transactions and looking at the exhibits and looking at the checks and knowing that your brother promised to reimburse you and did so, for amounts of money to you and Mr. Landon totaling $35,000, means that you laundered money. It wasn't your money; it was somebody else's money.
You gave it politically. And I, for one, think that it's one thing to not know it at the time; it's another thing weeks later to suggest that you don't know what the hell's going on. At some point, it's got to become clear, because I'd like to encourage you also to be involved in politics, but I don't want to encourage you to be involved in politics if you still haven't figured out that this is money laundering.
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It's a serious problem to us because, according to our most recent information, over $900,000 went from Ng Lap Seng to your brother just in the years that he was raising money. You know that your brother was a 20-year friend of the President of the United States. You personally talked to the President of the United States about it. And I hope that, in addition to the information that you provide today, that you will work with us, because we're after information from your brother who is now hiding in the People's Republic of China. We want to get him back. It's something of sufficient importance that the President of the United States hopefully will raise it with Jiang Zemin when he is visiting in just a few weeks.
So I look forward, particularly in light of the grant of immunity that the minority and majority Members agreed jointly to extend to both of you, to your thorough cooperation on this matter. I yield back.
Ms. FOUNG. Could I respond to that?
Mr. COX. Of course you may respond. My time is up, but yours is not.
Ms. FOUNG. First of all, I am a very honest person. I believe everybody here already checked my background, checked my record. I'm clear as a piece of paper. Never had any unlawful activities. I'm a hard-working blue collar; and I pay my taxes, I pay my bills. And I don't know what you are trying to say that I'm lying. I really cannot, even if I wanted to.
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I have no more information to offer to you than I already did. I don't know anything.
To me, my brother asked me for a favor, to advance a check. I didn't even know what DNC means. I asked him, what does it mean? And I don't know how else I can explain to you.
Something like that really wasn't important to me at all. And you make it like I should have known what's going on. I didn't care. This whole fund-raising thing is like a football game that I don't understand. I'm not interested. I turn away every time it shows up on the TV. That's the extent of my understanding of this whole thing.
Mrs. MORELLA [presiding]. The gentleman's time has expired.
I would now like to recognize Mr. Waxman for extended questioning for 10 minutes.
Mr. WAXMAN. Madam Chair, I'm going to have to hold on asking the questions, because we've got the people that we're going to yield to running back onto the House floor.
Let me say, I don't agree with anything that Mr. Cox just had to say to you and I want that very clear. We're going to withhold on asking questions at this moment.
Mrs. MORELLA. The committee will now recess subject to the call of the Chair.
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[Recess.]
Mr. BURTON [presiding]. The committee will resume its business.
Mr. Waxman.
Mr. WAXMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, I want to note for the record that there's been another violation of our committee rules. You told us a few minutes ago that you provided materials about these witnesses to the grand jury. Under paragraph C(3)(a) of the document protocol we adopted on April 10, the chairman is required to notify me before—at least 24 hours prior to releasing committee documents. I did not receive any notice of this release, as required by our document protocol.
And Mr. Chairman, I don't think I would have objected, but I just wanted to point that out for the record.
Mr. BURTON. If the gentleman will yield real briefly?
Mr. WAXMAN. Certainly.
Mr. BURTON. I stand corrected. The only thing we gave them were the names of these people, so they could contact them. I did not give them any documents.
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Mr. WAXMAN. All right. I'm pleased to hear that.
Mr. BURTON. Our document protocol allows us to give documents of any kind to law enforcement agencies.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Chairman, I want to take issue with Mr. Cox's inference about Charlie Trie's connection to the Chinese Government. In the July 29 Senate hearing, it was revealed that Ng Lap Seng, sometimes referred to as Mr. Wu, sits on a local provincial advisory committee in China. This, of course, shouldn't be surprising; since China is a Communist country, anyone wanting to do business with China would be foolish not to have some friends in government. However, this does not mean that Ng Lap Seng is a high-level Chinese official.
It's absurd to suggest that simply because Charlie Trie is a business partner of Ng Lap Seng that Charlie Trie has connections to the Chinese Central Committee. It's like saying because someone is on a school board that therefore they know the President of the United States.
As Ms. Foung correctly stated, China is a big country. There are, no doubt, millions of people who have some connection to the government, as indeed 3 millions of people in the United States who have some connection to the Government, as there are millions of people in the United States who have some connection to the Government as well.
I want to yield now to the gentlelady from New York, Mrs. Maloney.
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Mrs. MALONEY. Thank you. I would like to ask Manlin Foung, have you ever met the First Lady?
Ms. FOUNG. No, ma'am.
Mrs. MALONEY. Have you ever met the Vice President?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mrs. MALONEY. Have you ever been to the White House?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mrs. MALONEY. So I take it you've never had coffee at the White House?
Ms. FOUNG. No, madam.
Mrs. MALONEY. And you never slept in the Lincoln Bedroom?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mrs. MALONEY. Did you expect to receive any political favor as a result of your contribution?
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Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mrs. MALONEY. Did you ever ask anyone else to make a contribution to the DNC?
Ms. FOUNG. No, except Joe.
Mrs. MALONEY. Do you have any personal knowledge of any donations other than ones that you made and your friend, Mr. Landon?
Ms. FOUNG. Not at all.
Mrs. MALONEY. I would like to ask Mr. Landon, did you ever expect to receive any political favors as a result of your contribution?
Mr. LANDON. None.
Mrs. MALONEY. Did you ever ask anyone else to make a contribution?
Mr. LANDON. No, ma'am.
Mrs. MALONEY. Do you have any personal knowledge of any donations other than the ones that you and Manlin made to the DNC?
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Mr. LANDON. No.
Mrs. MALONEY. I have no further questions.
Mr. WAXMAN. Thank you.
I want to yield to Mr. Barrett.
Mr. BARRETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I, like probably most people in this room, have made mistakes in judgment in my life. And I will probably continue to make mistakes in judgment. In fact, when constituents from time to time either compliment me on the job I'm doing or am critical, I tell them, don't worry, I will make a mistake someday.
I believe that you both made a mistake. I don't know whether—whether you knew it was wrong, but it was a mistake to do what you did for your brother. I probably would do the same for my brother if my brother asked me to do something. But it was a mistake.
My concern goes more to the fact that you made these contributions, but to what it shows about our political system. And what concerns me about these hearings today is that it does, I think, quite effectively—and maybe some of my colleagues on this side of the aisle disagree, but I think it quite effectively shows some of the cancer in our system.
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It is wrong for the Democratic National Committee or wrong for anybody on this side of the aisle to take contributions that are not legally given. But this hearing process is a charade; and the reason it's a charade is because someone in this room would be left to believe that the Democrats are the bad guys and the Republicans are the good guys, and the reality couldn't be further from the truth.
We've heard people mention this morning the headline in the Washington Post today, and it talked about contributions, $120,000 in contributions, I think was the figure. $80,000 in contributions to the Dole campaign, exactly the type of contributions that you made where someone was asked to make a contribution, and they were reimbursed; $35,000 in contributions to Republican Senate and congressional candidates, $4,000 to Democratic Senate and congressional candidates.
We will hear nothing about that in this hearing. We will hear nothing about money that has been illegally given to Republicans, because that's not the purpose of these hearings.
And, Mr. Landon, when you said that this was only the second time that you've been to a political event, this is a political event. That's what this is today; this is a political event. Because this is not a serious attempt to look at the systemic problems in the system, because if it were, we would be trying to get at ''Firm to Pay $8 Million Fine for Illegal Campaign Gifts.'' We would be trying to deal with that. We would be bringing employees from that company here to talk about it. But that's not what this is about.
I'm sorry you made a mistake; I hope that it was an innocent mistake. Obviously, the committee unanimously felt that you were not crucial cogs in any sort of scheme, or we wouldn't have given you immunity. But just as I will make mistakes in the future, I assume you will.
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But I want to thank you for being here today. But what I want to say is, don't make the same mistake twice.
I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Cummings.
Mr. CUMMINGS. I also, I want to associate myself with the words of Mr. Barrett, who just spoke. I don't have any questions, because I mean, I'm a trial lawyer. I practiced for 20 years. And I've listened to your testimony, I think you've been very candid with us. And we really appreciate your testimony.
I think for me to sit here and to ask you any questions is merely taking up more of your time, taking more of the time of this committee when we need to be getting on to other things.
I'm a new Member of the Congress, and I must tell you that I—and this is more to our committee, and I'm very, very disappointed. I am sure that there will be other questions trying to solicit information, but basically, I think any—most people who know anything about testimony would probably pretty much conclude that we've—I mean, through the questioning that has already taken place, we've gotten about as much as we are going to get.
But, again, I thank you all for being here, and I hope that you can go on with your lives. Thank you.
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Mr. WAXMAN. Mr. Chairman, in the interest of moving forward with this hearing and not wasting any time, we yield back the balance of our time.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time.
Mr. Shays.
Mr. SHAYS. Thank you.
Ms. Foung, it's true you're not Webster Hubbell, who's refused to cooperate with the Justice Department and the committee, a major figure in this investigation.
It's also true you're not John Huang, who's taken the fifth and refused to cooperate. And it's also true you're obviously not Charlie Trie, who—your brother who has fled the country, a major figure in our investigation.
And it's also true you're here at great inconvenience of your time. That's true.
But you're also here because both of you collectively laundered $35,000. And in my way of looking at it, $35,000 is a lot of money. And it was laundered money; this money was not your money, correct?
Mr. LANDON. Correct.
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Mr. SHAYS. Ms. Foung, was this your money? You don't need a long time to answer it. Yes or no.
Ms. FOUNG. Would you repeat your question again, without all that statement prior to that?
Mr. SHAYS. No, I'm not going to repeat the question again.
You testified to that.
Ms. FOUNG. OK. I'll answer your question.
No, I did not—I didn't think I was laundering money. That wasn't my money. I was simply doing my brother—did my brother a favor.
Mr. SHAYS. You testified to Mr. Waxman that your brother was a successful businessman. What was his business and where did he get his money?
Ms. FOUNG. That is none of my business. I don't know.
Mr. SHAYS. How do you know he's a successful businessman then?
Ms. FOUNG. I told you, back in 1994, I had gone to Little Rock for Christmas. He showed me his office. It was a big, good-looking office with—full of employees.
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Mr. SHAYS. You testified in deposition and before this committee that your brother asked you for money for a house payment. Why would he have asked you for money?
Ms. FOUNG. No. Apparently you misunderstood. I said this is—to me, is the same as if he could not come back to the country, he asked me to advance a house payment until he can get back, reimbursement to me.
Mr. SHAYS. So you said, it is not testimony that he borrowed money from you, you likened the laundering of $35,000 to a campaign in your name as the same as his borrowing money for your house?
Ms. FOUNG. Could you repeat that? I really lost somewhere what we're trying to find out.
Mr. SHAYS. I'm not going to repeat the question.
Ms. Foung, according to your deposition and testimony, other than your two contributions to the Democratic National Committee, the DNC, on February 1996 and on August 1996, you have never made any other political contribution; is that correct?
Ms. FOUNG. To the best of my recollection, that's correct.
Mr. SHAYS. To the best of your recollection. So you stand on record that you've contributed on two occasions 10—10, $12,000, $12,500 on February 19th, which was money that you got from your brother, and on 8/18/96, $10,000. That's the extent of your political contributions?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. SHAYS. Are you aware that Federal Election Commission records show you making two $1,000 contributions to the minority Leader of the Senate, Tom Daschle, on June 26th, 1995?
Ms. FOUNG. I saw the document, yes.
Mr. SHAYS. Did you make that contribution?
Ms. FOUNG. Not to my knowledge—my recollection.
Mr. SHAYS. Well, I mean, did you or didn't you?
Ms. FOUNG. Like I said, not to the best of my recollection, no.
Mr. SHAYS. See, you've been immune from testimony, so——
Ms. FOUNG. Exactly.
Mr. SHAYS [continuing]. So you don't need to keep anything from us.
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Wouldn't you know if you made a contribution?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes, if I made contribution, I would know.
Mr. SHAYS. Did you know?
Ms. FOUNG. I'm speaking under oath. I don't want something I didn't remember to come back to me as I'm lying.
Mr. SHAYS. It's possible you made a contribution?
Ms. FOUNG. To the best of my recollection, no.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. Are you aware that Federal Election Commission records show that Dai Lin Outlaw, your sister, contributed $1,000 to Mr. Daschle on 6/26 and another $1,000 on 6/26. Are you aware of that?
Ms. FOUNG. To the extent if you're showing me the document.
Mr. SHAYS. Have you been told that this happened?
Ms. FOUNG. I might have. I just——
Mr. SHAYS. Did you ask your sister if she made this contribution?
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Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SHAYS. Are you aware that Federal Election Commission records show that Jim Outlaw, your brother-in-law, made two $1,000 contributions on the same date?
Ms. FOUNG. If that's what the record reflects.
Mr. SHAYS. Are you aware that that contribution——
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SHAYS [continuing]. Was made?
Are you aware that the Federal Election Commission records show that E-Foung Do Trie, your mother, made two $1,000 contributions to—again, to Mr. Daschle's campaign in 1995?
Ms. FOUNG. No, I'm not aware of it.
Mr. SHAYS. No one on this committee has asked you about these contributions?
Ms. FOUNG. They probably have. I've been asked a lot of questions. I answered it.
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Mr. SHAYS. Well, so, you were asked and you remembered, or you don't remember? That's kind of a surprising thing to forget, isn't it?
Ms. FOUNG. Not really. All this fund-raising thing might be very important thing to you, but it's not to me, except to the extent that it affects my life greatly.
Mr. SHAYS. Well, it affected your life greatly because your brother asked you to commit a felony.
Ms. FOUNG. No, my brother didn't. If my brother knew that, he would never ask me something like that.
Mr. SHAYS. No, your brother asked you to launder money, and to put it in your name. And it wasn't your money.
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SHAYS. That's what your brother did. That is a felony.
Ms. FOUNG. My testimony is, my brother asked me a favor because he cannot make those checks in time. That's the extent of what he asked me. He did not ask me to launder money. If he knew——
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Mr. SHAYS. When you——
Ms. FOUNG [continuing]. That he was going to get me in this position, he wouldn't ask me.
Mr. SHAYS. Your testimony is, your brother didn't know he was asking you to launder money?
When I asked you—when you met the President, according to your deposition, President Clinton knew your brother. What did he say about your brother?
Ms. FOUNG. Just what I testified earlier.
Mr. SHAYS. Why don't you do this? Why don't you turn to page 29 of the deposition, since you have a hard time remembering things you said to us, and tell me if, when the question was asked, exactly what did the President say to you about his relationship with your brother back in Little Rock, AR, days.
Your answer was—excuse me, it's on page 30; I'm sorry, on page 30.
Your answer was: He said my brother, Charlie Trie, is a close friend of his in two decades. Is that the answer you still stand by?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes. And I believe that was the answer I gave you earlier.
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Mr. SHAYS. OK. No, it wasn't, because I didn't ask that question.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes, I did.
Mr. SHAYS. Have you had any contact with the Democratic National Committee, the DNC?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes, I did.
Mr. SHAYS. Who initiated that contact?
Ms. FOUNG. I did.
Mr. SHAYS. Why did you initiate that contact?
Ms. FOUNG. Because there's a combination of several reasons. The first reason was, I thought maybe the DNC had made a mistake that had overlooked my contribution. So I wasn't——
Mr. SHAYS. Was that your contribution?
Ms. FOUNG. English is my second language. If you're picking on what I said all the time, I am sorry, it will be very difficult to me.
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Mr. SHAYS. I'm sorry, too. But the bottom line is, I only have 10 minutes.
You can complete your story here. You called them because you wanted your money back?
Ms. FOUNG. I want my brother's money back.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. And why do you think your brother was entitled to his money back?
Ms. FOUNG. To the best of my knowledge, that was his money.
Mr. SHAYS. Well, but he gave it to you to give to the party. And why wouldn't you just be happy with your contribution? Why would you have made the contribution then, and felt good about it; and now want your money back, which wasn't your money?
Ms. FOUNG. No, I didn't feel good or bad. I had no feelings. I simply did a favor for my brother.
Mr. SHAYS. So your brother wanted his money back?
Ms. FOUNG. And it turned out to be—no.
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Mr. SHAYS. Did your brother ask you for the money back?
Ms. FOUNG. I thought that was the way it was supposed to be handled. My limited knowledge of that was, they were refunding money related to my brother.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. Ms. Foung, did you receive—excuse me.
Mr. SOLLERS. Mr. Landon.
Mr. SHAYS. Mr. Landon, I'm sorry.
Did you receive—have any contact with the DNC?
Mr. LANDON. No, I did not.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. Did the DNC return the money that you laundered to the DNC?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, they did.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. Did they explain why they were doing that?
Mr. LANDON. All I got was the check is in the mail. I got no communication with the DNC.
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Mr. SHAYS. OK.
Ms. Foung, have you received any money back from Senator Daschle?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SHAYS. Are you inclined to ask him for your money back?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. How come?
Ms. FOUNG. Because that's something I'm not aware of.
Mr. SHAYS. Would you like—I would like to yield to Mr. Cox.
Do you have a question?
Mr. COX. I just wondered, as a followup, Mr. Landon, when you got the check, did you keep it?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. COX. Do you still have it?
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Mr. LANDON. I put it in the bank, and it's still there.
Mr. COX. Boy, good for you.
Mr. SHAYS. OK. I thank you. I yield back my time.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman yields back his time.
Mr. Barr.
Mr. SHAYS. Isn't it on that side, Mr. Condit?
Mr. CONDIT. I can wait.
Mr. BURTON. Mr. Barr.
Mr. BARR. Point of order, are they yielding back their time?
Mr. BURTON. If the gentleman, Mr. Condit——
Mr. CONDIT. No, I would like to claim my time.
Mr. BARR. I'm sorry.
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Mr. BURTON. OK, Mr. Condit, then we'll go back to your side.
Mr. CONDIT. Are you yielding to me Mr. Chairman at this point?
Mr. BURTON. We recognize you for 5 minutes.
Mr. CONDIT. Pardon? I would like to take my time, Mr. Chairman, and clarify something we started a little bit ago with you, if I may; I'll do it now, if you like, or—I can do it now, or you——
Mr. BURTON. You can take your 5 minutes.
Mr. CONDIT. What is the policy of the committee on how we reimburse these witnesses? What are the guidelines? Do we intend to reimburse Ms. Foung for her child care, her travel and the hotel; and Mr. Landon, too? Is that the policy of the committee.
Mr. BURTON. We reimburse for travel, hotel, meals, and incidental expenses for their trip out here.
Mr. CONDIT. How about her time off work and her child care?
Mr. BURTON. We provide what the rules of the House and the Government normally require.
Mr. CONDIT. And what is that?
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Mr. BURTON. What I just stated. Travel, hotel, meals and incidentals.
Mr. CONDIT. Do you intend to do this for Mr. Landon, as well?
Mr. BURTON. Yes.
Mr. CONDIT. And all witnesses that appear here?
Mr. BURTON. All witnesses that we subpoenaed and have come before the committee.
Mr. CONDIT. It was my understanding Ms. Foung, there was a commitment made to her about her son traveling with her, that she would be allowed to bring her 9-year-old son, later was told that she couldn't do that. She had to get child care to take care of him for 24-hour periods.
Mr. BURTON. That was discussed. But under the rules of the House and the rules of the investigation, that's not allowed. The only thing is allowed is for witnesses. We did look into some other way to facilitate that, but there was no other way to do it. So we provided transportation, hotels and meals and incidentals for Ms. Foung and Mr. Landon.
Mr. CONDIT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. BURTON. Does the gentleman yield back?
Mr. CONDIT. Yes.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman yields back.
Mr. Barr.
Mr. BARR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Landon, just to followup briefly on the previous questions from my colleagues, Mr. Shays and Mr. Cox here, that $12,500, is that in a bank account over which you have control?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BARR. OK. Has that been declared as income to you?
Mr. LANDON. No, it's not mine.
Mr. BARR. Who's is it?
Mr. LANDON. I assume it's Charlie Trie's.
Mr. BARR. Is he the one you received it from?
Mr. LANDON. No, I got it from Ms. Foung.
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Mr. BARR. What information is available to you that it is Mr. Trie's money?
Mr. LANDON. Just she said it was.
Mr. BARR. OK.
Mr. LANDON. I assume from what I've read in the paper that it belongs to him.
Mr. BARR. OK. Nothing that you've gathered through these hearings or through the grand jury proceedings would lead you to that conclusion.
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BARR. You testified earlier, Mr. Landon, I think it was in response to some questions my colleague, Mr. Waxman, had asked you that you understood that the checks that you received were from overseas.
Mr. LANDON. Yes sir.
Mr. BARR. OK. You don't know from who they were from, though?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
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Mr. BARR. OK. But it's your conclusion now that they were from Mr. Trie?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BARR. OK. During the course of your discussions with your attorney and with the Department of Justice, and I presume that you have had discussions concerning immunity; is that correct?
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. BARR. OK. And it's your understanding that you are immunized and that means safe from prosecution for anything that you talk about here; is that correct?
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. BARR. OK. Are you aware that it is illegal under the laws of this country to make political contributions in the name of another person?
Mr. LANDON. I am aware.
Mr. BARR. OK. Are you also aware that it is against the laws of this country to launder money?
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Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BARR. OK. And are you aware that there are, indeed, criminal penalties that attach to violations of those U.S. laws?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BARR. OK. Do you know what those penalties are?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
Mr. BARR. OK. But you—it is your understanding that you are here under a grant of immunity so you are not to be prosecuted—you cannot be prosecuted for any of these offenses.
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir. As long as I tell you everything I know.
Mr. BARR. OK.
Ms. Foung, is that your understanding also that you are here under a grant of immunity and that you cannot be prosecuted for violation of election laws or money-laundering laws of this country?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
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Mr. BARR. OK. And are you aware, as Mr. Landon has testified that he is aware, that it is indeed against the laws of this country to make contributions, political contributions in the name of another person?
Ms. FOUNG. I do now. But I didn't know then.
Mr. BARR. Nobody has made you aware of that up until this point today.
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct. Not today, until the whole thing that happened to me.
Mr. BARR. Sure. In other words, but you've had discussions, I presume, with your lawyer and so forth about these various laws that you are being immunized from.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BARR. OK. Are either of you familiar with—familiar with the gentleman named Antonio Pan?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. LANDON. No, sir.
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Mr. BARR. OK. Ms. Foung, you previously testified that you and Mr. Landon were reimbursed for your two separate February 1996 contributions to the DNC in the amount of $12,500 each for a total of $25,000. And I believe those checks have already been shown. Were you, Ms. Foung, aware of before being informed by this committee that Antonio Pan was the source of that $25,000?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. BARR. And Mr. Landon?
Mr. LANDON. No.
Mr. BARR. OK. And are both of you under the impression that it was your brother's money, Ms. Trie——
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. BARR. Ms. Foung?
Mr. LANDON. Yes.
Mr. BARR. OK. As has been discussed previously before today, the committee has learned through the bank records of February 22, 1996, Antonio Pan, a former Lippo associate and close executive to John Huang and your brother, Mr. Trie, opened a savings account at Amerasia Bank in Flushing, NY, with an initial deposit of $25,200 cash. If we could see document 78 please?
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Within minutes of that initial deposit, Mr. Pan withdrew $25,000 from the savings account and purchased from Amerasia Bank five sequentially numbered $5,000 cashier's checks totaling $25,000. Three of the cashier's checks totaling $15,000 were made payable to you, Ms. Foung, and two totaling $10,000 were made payable to you, Mr. Landon.
If we can see briefly documents 70 to 72 and 75 and 76. And let me add this question to both of you, please. Would it surprise you if you discovered that the money sent to you was, in fact, your brother's and that Antonio Pan was merely assisting your brother in sending the money?
[Exhibits 70, 71, 72, 75, 76, and 78 follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 214 TO 218 AND 25 HERE
Mr. LANDON. It would be a surprise to me.
Mr. BARR. Would that surprise you, Ms. Foung?
Ms. FOUNG. Are you talking about back then or now?
Mr. BARR. You have to testify truthfully. So it doesn't matter. Would that surprise you now?
Ms. FOUNG. Back then, his name is not there, so, no, I—it didn't surprise me. But now, yes. Maybe they do business together or something, I don't know.
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Mr. BARR. OK. It's interesting to note that except for the $25,200 deposit and the $25,000 withdrawal, from this particular savings account established by Mr. Pan on February 22, 1996, no other activity whatsoever has ever occurred in that account, except for the minimal payment of interest on the $200 that he left remaining in the account, as we can see from documents 115, and 119.
No other deposits or withdrawals were ever made after the establishment of the account and purchase of the $25,000 in cashier's checks that were sent to you, Ms. Foung and Mr. Landon. Just so the American people and you will know, Antonio Pan's business card indicates that he is the executive director of your brother's company, America-Asia Trade Center Inc., as can be seen from document No. 60.
Another one of Mr. Pan's business cards indicates that he is the chief executive officer of Daihatsu International Trading, Inc., another company established and owned by your brother, Ms. Foung, Mr. Trie, as shown in document 61.
Antonio Pan is relevant to Mr. Wang's testimony that we'll hear later today, as well as the testimony by the two of you. According to Mr. Wang, Mr. Pan accompanied then DNC executive, John Huang, to Mr. Wang's car dealership in California where John Huang solicited a $5,000 contribution for the DNC from Mr. Wang and a $5,000 contribution from Mr. Wang's friend David Wu.
Later that same day, and again a few days later, Antonio Pan delivered envelopes of cash totaling $10,000 to reimburse both Mr. Wang and Mr. Wu for their contributions. Evidently, your brother was a friend of John Huang, as well. He served as a fund-raiser for the DNC and in doing so worked with John Huang. In fact, your brother wrote a check for $1,775 to John Huang from his America-Asia Trade Center checking account held at Riggs Bank. Document 53. The committee continues to investigate this check.
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Finally, Mr. Chairman, it should be noted that Antonio Pan visited the White House on at least eight occasions between August 1995 and October 1996, including one occasion with Mr. Charlie Trie. Document 67.
Mr. Chairman, with today's hearings, we see the introduction of another key player in this campaign finance scandal, ex-Lippo executive, Antonio Pan. What is particularly interesting is the two friends of the Riadys, both ex-Lippo executives, Antonio Pan and John Huang, appear to be working in concert with the President's long-time friend, Mr. Charlie Trie.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
[Exhibits 115, 119, 60, 61, 53, and 67 follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 26 TO 37 HERE
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. Does anyone on the minority side seek time? If not, anybody on the majority side seek time? Mr. Shadegg, or excuse me, Mr. Mica. You're recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. MICA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, I know it appears that both of you innocently participated in this activity, at least that's what you've testified to today; is that correct?
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. MICA. And I know you've been inconvenienced, both of you. You said 4 days or 5 days and other disturbances to you personally. That's correct?
Mr. LANDON. Yes.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. LANDON. Yeah.
Mr. MICA. Did anyone tell you what the penalty would be if you did not cooperate, if you did not have immunity, and you, you had a problem facing you, a legal problem facing you?
Ms. FOUNG. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
Mr. MICA. Did anyone tell you the severity—I mean, you are clearly, it appears, innocent participants in this. But you were granted immunity both to come before this committee, and I understand that you have immunity, I guess, with the Department of Justice.
Mr. LANDON. Correct.
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Mr. SOLLERS. Correct.
Mr. MICA. OK. But did anyone explain to you that there might be some penalty for what you did or your participation?
Ms. FOUNG. I was told by your investigator over and over I didn't do anything wrong.
Mr. MICA. No. But again, you were granted immunity.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. MICA. From possible prosecution. I mean, if you did nothing wrong, there would be no reason to really get immunity from the Department of Justice. They've basically provided you cover, and this committee has, to come before us, tell us the truth, and you will not be prosecuted. But what you did, it's been explained to you, is basically served as a conduit. And your action has been illegal. It is illegal. Do you understand this, Mr. Landon?
Mr. LANDON. Yes.
Mr. MICA. What you did was not right.
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
Mr. MICA. So you could have been inconvenienced a great deal more, I—if.
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Mr. LANDON. That is correct.
Mr. MICA. If the Department of Justice wanted to——
Mr. LANDON. Without the immunity, that is correct.
Mr. MICA. That's my understanding. Now, I heard about the money coming back. Now, you have $5,000 in an account or $1,000?
Mr. LANDON. $12,500 in an account.
Mr. MICA. You have $12,500. Do you have any money in an account? Did you get any money back?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. MICA. And you called DNC and asked for your money back?
Ms. FOUNG. Well I better make this clear. My brother's money.
Mr. MICA. OK. Well, but did you get the money back?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
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Mr. MICA. You never got anything.
Ms. FOUNG. Not yet.
Mr. MICA. And how did you get your money back? Did you place a call, too?
Mr. LANDON. No, sir, I didn't. It was sent to me in, I believe, it was June of this year.
Mr. MICA. Now, the only way you can get in trouble, I guess, is if you don't tell the truth or you change your story. When you talked to your brother, he didn't say anything about not cooperating with anyone, did he?
Ms. FOUNG. No. He emphasized over and over that he will not discuss anything with me, because I'm a potential witness. He don't want to influence me.
Mr. MICA. But he said to—did he say to cooperate with us?
Ms. FOUNG. I don't believe we discussed that.
Mr. MICA. But did he say anything about you being able to get your money back? Is that what prompted you calling DNC, to get the money back?
Ms. FOUNG. No, he didn't indicate one way or the other.
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Mr. MICA. How did you find out about the ability—how did you find out you could get the refund?
Ms. FOUNG. That was in the paper, isn't it, that they were refunding anything relating to my brother.
Mr. MICA. Did you just call DNC and——
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. MICA. Do you remember who you talked with?
Ms. FOUNG. Joe Sandler. That was the counsel for DNC.
Mr. MICA. They put you in touch with DNC counsel?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes, he put me in touch with DNC counsel. That's correct.
Mr. MICA. I guess you—you two must have a pretty close relationship, because she asked you to participate in this, right?
Mr. LANDON. Correct.
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Mr. MICA. And did you have any clue of what you were doing might be—I mean——
Mr. LANDON. At the time, no, sir.
Mr. MICA. But I've got good friends and I've never had anybody ask me to write a check for $12,000——
Mr. LANDON. She asked me to write the check. My only concern when I did her this favor was make sure I got my money back, to cover the check.
Mr. MICA. Did you ask her any questions about it?
Mr. LANDON. She——
Mr. MICA. You testified earlier——
Mr. LANDON. She mentioned something, it was something for the Democrats.
Mr. MICA. It was something for the Democrats.
Mr. LANDON. Yes.
Mr. MICA. But again, it was your close relationship, she told you it was something for the Democrats so you wrote a check for that amount?
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Mr. LANDON. Correct.
Mr. MICA. And didn't question the source?
Mr. LANDON. Well, my initial was I didn't know what the DNC was until she mentioned that it had something to do with the Democrats.
Mr. MICA. Wait, she testified earlier that she didn't—she didn't even know what the DNC stood for.
Mr. LANDON. I'm pretty sure.
Mr. MICA. I thought I heard her say that.
Mr. LANDON. Something to do with the Democrats.
Mr. MICA. And she told you that. I'm afraid my time is expired, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Souder.
Mr. SOUDER. Ms. Foung, I wanted to followup briefly on a question that Mr. Shays had asked. When he asked you whether you were going to request your $1,000 back that was sent to Senator Daschle, you said you weren't; is that correct? There is $1,000 that was sent to Senator Daschle from you. You said you weren't going to request that $1,000 back.
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Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SOUDER. That pretty strongly suggests that you earlier answered that you didn't recollect and that the reason you didn't want to say that you flat out didn't know about the contribution is you didn't want to discover later that, in fact, you did know; is that not true? In other words, when he asked you did you know about the $1,000 that was sent to Senator Daschle, you said to the best of your recollection, you don't remember.
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. SOUDER. Do you write a lot of $1,000 checks?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes. My house payment is over $1,000 every month.
Mr. SOUDER. But that's—do you write a lot of $1,000 checks that aren't repetitive?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SOUDER. In other words, my house payment check is over a $1,000, too, and occasionally you have a major thing. But a $1,000 check pretty likely you would remember it; isn't that true?
Ms. FOUNG. Exactly.
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Mr. SOUDER. So most likely, even though you said to the best of your recollection, especially since that you aren't asking for rebuttal, it means you almost are 100 percent certain that you didn't write that check. It would just be a fluke of memory that if somebody came back to you, because you really don't remember that check.
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. SOUDER. And so most likely it was sent by somebody else on your behalf using your name, and that's why you aren't asking for the refund.
Ms. FOUNG. I'm sorry. I didn't understand that part.
Mr. SOUDER. Most likely that check was sent by someone else using your name, and that's why you don't—aren't asking for a refund, and that's why you don't remember.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. SOUDER. Thank you. Your brother.
Mr. COX. I'm sorry, would you yield for just a moment?
Mr. SOUDER. I would be happy to yield.
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Mr. COX. For the record, my understanding of the witness testimony to Mr. Shays was there was two, $1,000 checks to Mr. Daschle written on the same day in the witness' name. And I yield back. Thank you.
Mr. SOUDER. Thank you. I understand that you earlier said that you felt your brother's influence was overestimated. Had he spoken to you or others in the past about any of his opinions on China policy?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SOUDER. You've never had a discussion about those issues anywhere in family discussions over the years? Do you know if he has been active in any other organizations?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SOUDER. To your knowledge, not only about American politics, but do you have any information about how he felt about China?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. SOUDER. The——
Ms. FOUNG. Let me correct that. We grew up in Taiwan. We were brought up to believe Red China is a different country, is our enemy. But as I grow up, it's not as important to me anymore. They're old China.
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Mr. SOUDER. Does it surprise you that your brother would have first raised, which has been reported, fairly extensively $460,000 in checks for the Presidential campaign and then followed that with a letter to the President urging restraint in how they handled the—when Mainland China threatened, at least—at least blustered a threat at Taiwan, and that he would have been interested in trying to influence that policy in the United States?
Ms. FOUNG. For the best interest of the United States, the experience that we learned from China—learned from Vietnam war and Korean war, wouldn't that be the best interest of the United States to not get involved with the war or something like that? And he is citizen of the United States. He and me both love this country very much. I'm sure his way of thinking is maybe most of the Americans' here thinking too. So how come when he say something like that, it's influencing policy. If it's American people so nice to me say the same thing, it's not influencing policy. So are we being separated from—just because we're Asian-American?
Mr. SOUDER. He absolutely has a right to speak. And all Americans have the right to speak. But when you bring checks in for $460,000, at the time you're influencing policy, and you raise that money from overseas sources, it's a little bit different. That's what we're trying to get to.
Ms. FOUNG. Right. I understand.
Mr. SOUDER. It's not about Asian-Americans. In fact, I want to say this for the record. I think Asian-Americans have been used by this administration. We don't see other continents and people from other types of nations being drug through this like this. Asian-Americans like you were used to launder money. And it's a discredit to this administration the way they've abused the Asian-Americans. And with that, I yield back.
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Mr. BURTON. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. Mr. Shadegg.
Mr. SHADEGG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to begin by establishing that, first of all, when you wrote this check, you wrote two checks, one for $12,500, and later, one for $10,000; is that right?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. SHADEGG. And as I understood your earlier testimony, when you wrote the $12,500 check, you did not have $12,500 in your account; is that right?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. SHADEGG. And I guess you weren't clear as to when you wrote the $10,000 check as to if you had money in your account at that time. You might or might not have.
Ms. FOUNG. I might or might not have.
Mr. SHADEGG. OK. Not sure. Mr. Landon, when you wrote the $12,500 check, as I understand it, you did not have $12,500 in your account.
Mr. LANDON. That's correct.
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Mr. SHADEGG. I want to ask another question of you, ma'am. As I understand it, you did not get paid any money for doing this. Your brother did not offer you any money for doing this, did he?
Ms. FOUNG. No, my brother does give me money periodically, you know, being gifts or being just help me out and things like that.
Mr. SHADEGG. So he does make gifts to you or sometimes gives you money.
Ms. FOUNG. To my kids or, yes. He's a very generous person.
Mr. SHADEGG. How much has he given you over time?
Ms. FOUNG. Thousand, a few hundred, and—I didn't keep track of it. Or if I need, I ask him to give the amount he can afford.
Mr. SHADEGG. When he asked you to write this $12,500 check to an entity you didn't know the name of, did you have and—and didn't know what it was, did you have a belief or understanding that if he did that, he might later make a gift to you or to your children?
Ms. FOUNG. I didn't expect anything.
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Mr. SHADEGG. You didn't expect anything.
Ms. FOUNG. Huh-uh.
Mr. SHADEGG. You were doing this because you care about your brother and he's family and this was a favor to him.
Ms. FOUNG. It was something small. I have no financial loss. Why not? If I knew it was wrong, I'm sure I wouldn't do it. He wouldn't ask me. That's the extent of what I believe in.
Mr. SHADEGG. I know you're here under a grant of immunity and you've been protected and I don't—and I appreciate you coming forward, as our colleagues on the other side have expressed.
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. SHADEGG. I have to tell you that I'm a little concerned that you're caught up in a web of serious conduct here, which I think goes to the integrity of this Government. If we corrupt the political process in this country, people won't have faith in the Government, and I think it has serious consequences.
You say it wasn't anything wrong, it was a little thing. For most of us—you described yourself as a blue collar worker. For most of us, writing a $12,500 check, later writing a $10,000 check, is not a little thing. It would not be a little thing particularly to a group we had never heard of. So I am having some trouble.
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I believe you. I believe the speech you made earlier about you are an honest person, but there are other people out there in America who may get used, next year or today, like it appears you got used; and quite frankly, what is evident here, whether you like it or not, is that your brother corrupted the American political process. And that does serious damage.
And when you say, well, there was nothing wrong, it was a little thing, I guess I have to ask you, did it occur to you that it might not be a good idea to write a check for $12,500 to an organization you didn't know what it was when you didn't have $12,500 in your bank?
Ms. FOUNG. I guess there would be several answers to your question. It's a long question. When I said—I said at the time when I did it, it was a small thing to me because there is no financial impact to me. I didn't know it was wrong. I thought I was simply putting a check in for him because of time, and what was I—and I think I repeated over and over, if I knew it was wrong, it wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't be sitting here.
Mr. SHADEGG. Let me go to that, because my time is beginning to run out here.
Most of us know that it is not right to write a check out of our account for an amount we don't have in the account. And so most of us would have been very concerned about—that's called kiting checks. It is improper.
I am a little stunned that you would sit here and say, well, I wrote a check for $12,500 knowing I didn't have it in my account. I am a little worried about that. And if other people across America are going to get asked to do it, I hope that, as a result of this hearing, they will ask themselves, even if it is their brother, gee, I don't think I ought to write a check for $200 that isn't in my account, much less $12,500 that isn't in my account. Why don't you just write the check?
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And I think it should have been a clue to you, and I hope is a clue to future Americans, that if somebody asks them to write a check, they are really making a statement that I think is fundamentally dishonest. When I send a check to somebody, I am claiming that's my check; and to do that to the tune of $12,500, when I don't have that in my bank, I ought to be asking a few questions.
You know, what is this organization? You would have us believe, for example, that you didn't really care whether this group was nuclear terrorists. Your brother asked you and you did it, even though the check itself was a crime; and I just am concerned about that, and I hope other Americans will understand that there are consequences to their conduct, and that money laundering in this country, whether it is for political purposes or otherwise, is dangerous.
I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman's time has expired. Does anyone on the minority have any desire for time?
If not, who seeks time on the majority side?
Mr. COX. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. Does Mr. McHugh? Mr. Pappas.
Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.
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Mr. BURTON. Mr. Pappas.
Mr. PAPPAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I would like to get back to something we spoke about earlier.
At the time, Mr. Landon, you received the request by Ms. Foung to make this, I guess it was a $12,500 check, you said that she asked you to make a check out for, I guess it was the DNC, and you obliged.
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. PAPPAS. Did you ask—would you tell me again what—did you ask her any questions? Did you ask her to elaborate?
Mr. LANDON. Well, when I first got the—saw the DNC, I didn't know what it was. And she says it was coming from something overseas—someone overseas was requesting it, and it was to be sent to Washington, DC.
Mr. PAPPAS. And did you know—I guess you assumed that you would be reimbursed?
Mr. LANDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. PAPPAS. And did you know within what timeframe you would be reimbursed?
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Mr. LANDON. I believe she told me it was a couple of days.
Mr. PAPPAS. OK. And were you made aware that her brother was in any way involved in this, at the time?
Mr. LANDON. At the time, I am not sure she specifically said her brother. I think I might have assumed it was her brother because that was the only one she had ever mentioned overseas.
Mr. PAPPAS. OK.
Ms. Foung, I guess the same question for you—and these may have been questions you probably have been asked many times: It was your brother who was the one that made the request that you write this initial $12,500 check?
Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. And at the same time, did he ask that you have Mr. Landon do the same?
Ms. FOUNG. I have to say yes, because otherwise I have no other reason.
Mr. PAPPAS. OK. And did you ask him why?
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Ms. FOUNG. I might have.
Mr. PAPPAS. OK. Do you remember if he had told you, or did he—in response to a question that you asked him, did he tell you why?
Ms. FOUNG. He might have told me something that I—it just didn't mean anything to me. I didn't understand the whole thing.
Mr. PAPPAS. And do you remember if your brother specifically gave a reason, even if you did not ask him a question, why he was asking you to do this?
Ms. FOUNG. I honestly didn't pay attention. I really didn't at the time. I didn't pay attention.
Mr. PAPPAS. And assuming—I think that's what you said earlier, that you did not believe, or you weren't sure whether you had that amount to cover that check, did you know within what timeframe you would receive a reimbursement?
Ms. FOUNG. My brother has never cheated me with money, and if I write a check that has—it bounces, it doesn't do him any good, it doesn't do me any good.
Mr. PAPPAS. So you assumed, based upon your experience with your brother previously, that that would be something that would be resolved quickly?
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Ms. FOUNG. Yes.
Mr. PAPPAS. OK. Did you wonder when the money appeared—evidently it was wired into your account. Did you wonder where it came from?
Ms. FOUNG. No.
Mr. PAPPAS. Can you tell me why you didn't wonder?
Ms. FOUNG. Why should I wonder? My concern is that the check was covered.
Mr. PAPPAS. So at the time you were not specifically concerned where that money may have been wired from or from whom?
Ms. FOUNG. That's correct.
Mr. PAPPAS. OK. And shifting gears a bit, you mentioned that you were aware that your brother had a relationship with the President in some way.
Ms. FOUNG. I didn't say ''relationship.'' Just what——
Mr. PAPPAS. Friendship, acquaintanceship, whatever. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but some sort of contact.
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Ms. FOUNG. I know my brother knew Mr. Clinton ever since—back in Little Rock.
Mr. PAPPAS. Right. And are you aware of whether your brother had any acquaintanceship or friendship or working relationship with any other public figure or—any political or public figure?
Ms. FOUNG. Not at all.
Mr. PAPPAS. OK. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time.
Does anyone else seek time?
Mr. COX. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. Mr. Cox.
Or Mr. McHugh, did you seek time?
Mr. MCHUGH. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BURTON. Let me go to Mr. McHugh first, and then I will could come back to you.
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Mr. MCHUGH. I was—under what I assume is the protocol of this committee, I was going to yield to Mr. Cox.
Mr. COX. I think, as it happens, we have reached the end of the first round, so it would be the same result in either case.
Mr. BURTON. OK. Who seeks time? Mr. Cox.
Mr. COX. I will seek time. Thank you.
Ms. Foung, you said earlier that you contacted the Democratic National Committee because you wanted your money back. And what did you propose to do with the money if they gave it back to you?
Ms. FOUNG. That would be up to my brother to decide.
Mr. COX. And how would you work that out with your brother?
Ms. FOUNG. I don't know. I never had a problem with getting in touch with him in the past.
Mr. COX. It is pretty easy to get in touch with him?
Ms. FOUNG. I wou