SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
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47–803 CC
1998
H. RES. 282, H. CON. RES. 22, H. CON. RES. 152, H. RES. 273, H. CON. RES. 172, H. RES. 231, AND H. CON. RES. 156
MARKUP
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
OCTOBER 31, 1997
Printed for the use of the Committee on International Relations
COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
BENJAMIN A. GILMAN, New York, Chairman
WILLIAM GOODLING, Pennsylvania
JAMES A. LEACH, Iowa
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HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois
DOUG BEREUTER, Nebraska
CHRISTOPHER SMITH, New Jersey
DAN BURTON, Indiana
ELTON GALLEGLY, California
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida
CASS BALLENGER, North Carolina
DANA ROHRABACHER, California
DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois
EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
PETER T. KING, New York
JAY KIM, California
STEVEN J. CHABOT, Ohio
MARSHALL ''MARK'' SANFORD, South Carolina
MATT SALMON, Arizona
AMO HOUGHTON, New York
TOM CAMPBELL, California
JON FOX, Pennsylvania
JOHN McHUGH, New York
LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina
ROY BLUNT, Missouri
KEVIN BRADY, Texas
LEE HAMILTON, Indiana
SAM GEJDENSON, Connecticut
TOM LANTOS, California
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HOWARD BERMAN, California
GARY ACKERMAN, New York
ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American Samoa
MATTHEW G. MARTINEZ, California
DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey
ROBERT ANDREWS, New Jersey
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey
SHERROD BROWN, Ohio
CYNTHIA A. McKINNEY, Georgia
ALCEE L. HASTINGS, Florida
PAT DANNER, Missouri
EARL HILLIARD, Alabama
BRAD SHERMAN, California
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida
STEVE ROTHMAN, New Jersey
BOB CLEMENT, Tennessee
BILL LUTHER, Minnesota
JIM DAVIS, Florida
RICHARD J. GARON, Chief of Staff
MICHAEL H. VAN DUSEN, Democratic Chief of Staff
HILLEL WEINBERG, Counsel
ALLISON KIERNAN, Staff Associate
C O N T E N T S
APPENDIX
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H. Res. 282, Congratulating the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) on the occasion of its 30th anniversary
H. Con. Res. 22, Regarding discrimination by the German Government against members of minority religious groups
Statement on H. Con. Res. 22 by Hon. Donald Payne, a Representative in Congress from New Jersey
Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H. Con. Res. 22 offered by Hon. Donald Payne
H. Con. Res. 152, regarding Northern Ireland
Statement on H. Con. Res. 152 by Hon. Benjamin A. Gilman, Chairman, a Representative in Congress from New York and Chairman, Committee on International Relations
Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H. Con. Res. 152 offered by Hon. Christopher H. Smith, a Representative in Congress from New Jersey
Letter of support for H. Con. Res. 152 from Fr. Sean McManus, Irish National Caucus, Inc.
Statements of support for H. Con. Res. 152 from human rights groups
H. Res. 273, Regarding Angola's military interventions in the Congo
Amendment to H. Res. 273 offered by Hon. Ed Royce, a Representative in Congress from California
Amendment to H. Res. 273 offered by Hon. Benjamin A. Gilman
H. Con. Res. 172, Regarding friendship and cooperation between the United States and Mongolia
Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H. Con. Res. 172 offered by Hon. Doug Bereuter, a Representative in Congress from Nebraska
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H. Res. 231, Regarding the commitment of the American people in support of democracy and religious and economic freedom for the people of Vietnam
Statement on H. Res. 231 by Hon. Dana Rohrabacher, a Representative in Congress from California
H. Con. Res. 156, Regarding the continued deterioration of human rights in Afghanistan and the need for peaceful political settlement in that country
Amendment in the nature of a substitute to H. Con. Res. 156 offered by Hon. Doug Bereuter
MARKUP OF H. RES. 282, CONGRATULATING THE ASSOCIATION OF SOUTHEAST ASIAN NATIONS (ASEAN) ON THE OCCASION OF ITS 30TH ANNIVERSARY; H. CON. RES. 22, EXPRESSING THE SENSE OF THE CONGRESS WITH RESPECT TO THE DISCRIMINATION BY THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AGAINST MEMBERS OF MINORITY RELIGIOUS GROUPS, PARTICULARLY THE CONTINUED AND INCREASING DISCRIMINATION BY THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AGAINST PERFORMERS, ENTERTAINERS, AND OTHER ARTISTS FROM THE UNITED STATES ASSOCIATED WITH SCIENTOLOGY; H. CON. RES. 152, EXPRESSING THE SENSE OF THE CONGRESS THAT ALL PARTIES TO THE MULTIPARTY PEACE TALKS REGARDING NORTHERN IRELAND SHOULD CONDEMN VIOLENCE AND FULLY INTEGRATE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED HUMAN RIGHTS STANDARDS AND ADEQUATELY ADDRESS OUTSTANDING HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AS PART OF THE PEACE PROCESS; H. RES. 273, CONDEMNING THE MILITARY INTERVENTION BY THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ANGOLA INTO THE REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES; H. CON. RES. 172, EXPRESSING THE SENSE OF CONGRESS IN SUPPORT OF EFFORTS TO FOSTER FRIENDSHIP AND COOPERATION BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND MONGOLIA, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES; H. RES. 231, URGING THE PRESIDENT TO MAKE CLEAR TO THE GOVERNMENT OF THE SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM THE COMMITMENT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN SUPPORT OF DEMOCRACY AND RELIGIOUS AND ECONOMIC FREEDOM FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM; AND H. CON. RES. 156, EXPRESSING CONCERN FOR THE CONTINUED DETERIORATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN AFGHANISTAN AND EMPHASIZING THE NEED FOR A PEACEFUL POLITICAL SETTLEMENT IN THAT COUNTRY.
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WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 29, 1997
House of Representatives,
Committee on International Relations,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Benjamin A. Gilman (chairman of the Committee) presiding.
Chairman GILMAN. The Committee will come to order.
We will delay consideration of our resolution on Mr. Capps until more of our Members arrive. I know there are a couple of conferences underway right now. We hope that the Members will be arriving very shortly.
The item of business before us is H. Res. 282, congratulating ASEAN on its 30th anniversary. The Chair lays a measure before the Committee.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will report the title of the resolution.
Ms. BLOOMER. Congratulating the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), on the occasion of its 30th anniversary.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will read the preamble and operative language of the resolution for amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Whereas 1997 marks the 30th anniversary of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the preamble and operative text of the resolution are considered as having been read and open to amendment at any point.
[The resolution appears in the appendix.]
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The Chair recognizes the ranking—I yield myself as much time as I may need with regard to the measure.
I am proud to have this opportunity to introduce this measure congratulating the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), on the occasion of their 30th anniversary. I want to thank the chairman of our Asia and the Pacific Subcommittee, one of the cosponsors, Mr. Bereuter, for bringing this resolution before us so expeditiously. I also want to thank Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Berman, and Mr. Faleomavaega for cosponsoring the legislation.
ASEAN as an organization has a lot to be proud of. Its emphasis on cooperation in nonviolent settlement of disputes has fostered peace among its members in a region of the world which has long been wrought with instability and conflict.
The United States has important strategic economic and political interests at stake in Southeast Asia. Maintaining stability remains an overriding U.S. security interest in the region. Instability would not only threaten significant U.S. economic interests but could also undermine important U.S. political relationships. ASEAN's Regional Forum, ARF, the region's only security consolidated platform, is a key partner to the United States in maintaining regional stability.
The Congress rightfully has expressed its concern about the development of human rights and democracy in the nations of ASEAN, but is pleased with the flourishing of democracy in Thailand and the Philippines. It is hoped that these examples will encourage progress by the other nations of ASEAN in the furthering of democratic principles and practices, respect for human rights and the enhancement of the rule of law.
Congress looks forward to a broadening and deepening of friendship and cooperation with ASEAN in the years ahead for the mutual benefit of the people of the United States and the nations of ASEAN. Accordingly, I call upon my colleagues to support this resolution.
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I am pleased to recognize the Ranking Minority Member, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much, and thank you for bringing forward the resolution. I support it. Thirty years ago a handful of Southeast Asian nations came together, they really were not very influential at the time, and they created this Association of Southeast Asian Nations or ASEAN. I doubt very much if any of us at that time would have been very optimistic about its future.
The member nations of ASEAN now total nine. They have in a number of cases experienced an economic growth that is simply phenomenal, certainly would have been undreamed of at the time it was founded. I think in some instances political reform in these countries does not measure up to economic development, but we are all hopeful that political pluralism and democracy will one day prevail in the region.
ASEAN has now become one of the premier regional groups in the world, and it has shown itself to be a very good friend of the United States. It is altogether fitting that we commend it on its 30th anniversary as a gesture of friendship and support, and I strongly support the resolution.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. Bereuter was an original sponsor of the resolution, and is chairman of the Asia and the Pacific Subcommittee. Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to congratulate you for introducing this resolution. It is very appropriate, timely, and joined of course by Mr. Hamilton and my Ranking Member, Mr. Berman, and myself and others. I will shorten my statement, but I did want to say that it seems to me over the last 3 decades ASEAN has emerged into a critically security-important institution in Southeast Asia.
Originally created as a means to respond to the threat of Vietnamese expansionism, it is now an umbrella organization where all of Southeast Asia, including Vietnam, can work together to promote their common interests. ASEAN has had an important role in promoting a peaceful resolution to the Spratly Islands crisis, and has brought significant pressure to bear regarding the ongoing crisis in Cambodia.
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I also note that the United States, Russia, Japan, the PRC, and others interested in Asian security have been able to work constructively through the ARF. That is a very important contribution they make.
While ASEAN has significant challenges as authoritarian governments are brought into the organization, we certainly can hope that Vietnam and Laos and Burma's association with the ASEAN will have a democratizing effect on these one-party states. I urge support for the resolution.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Bereuter.
Are there any other Members seeking recognition?
Mr. Rohrabacher.
Mr. ROHRABACHER. Let me just say, Mr. Chairman, that it is important for us now to reaffirm our relations with ASEAN and let those folks over there know they are not forgotten. Most members of ASEAN are in the middle of a currency crisis at this moment, and I think this resolution will certainly let them know that we are not blind to their hardship that they are going through right now. So I would fully support the resolution. Thank you.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Rohrabacher. Are any other Members seeking recognition?
If not, I recognize the gentleman from Nebraska, Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Chairman be requested to seek consideration of this measure on the Suspension Calendar.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Nebraska. As many as are in favor of the motion signify in the usual manner. As many as opposed say no.
The ayes appear to have it, and the motion is agreed to. Further proceedings on the measure are postponed.
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Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, I have just seen a copy of your letter to the Speaker with respect to S. 610, the Chemical Weapons Convention, and I want to say that I appreciate your willingness to waive Committee consideration of the bill so that we might speed its consideration in the House and give it to the President for signature, and your letter conveys that intent.
Your letter also requests that S. 610 be combined with another measure, and I presume that is the Iran sanctions bill, and I simply want to go on record as saying that while I appreciate your waiving the Committee consideration and permitting it to go to the floor, I do personally oppose combining it with another bill because I think the impact of that is going to be simply to delay the consideration of a very important piece of legislation.
So I want to get that on the record. Thank you for waiving. I did want to object to the statement in your letter saying that you wanted it attached to another measure. I thank you.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hamilton. We hope it will not delay consideration of the chemical weapons measure, and at the same time we hope it will enhance the passage of the Iranian missile bill which we are all very much concerned about.
[The resolution which followed, paying tribute to the late Hon. Walter H. Capps, appears in a separate document.]
Chairman GILMAN. The regular measure we will take up next is H. Con. Res. 22, a sense of the Congress resolution relating to the treatment of Americans and others in Germany on account of their religion. The Chair lays a measure before the Committee.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will report the title of the resolution.
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Ms. BLOOMER. House Concurrent Resolution 22, expressing the sense of the Congress with respect to the discrimination by the German Government against members of minority religious groups, particularly the continued and increasing discrimination by the German Government against performers, entertainers and other artists from the United States associated with Scientology.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will read the preamble and operative language of the resolution for amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Whereas artists from the United States associated with Scientology have been denied the right to perform, have been the subjects of boycotts, and have been the victims of——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the preamble and the operative text of the resolution are considered as having been read and open to amendment at any point.
[The resolution appears in the appendix.]
The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from Florida, Mr. Hastings.
Mr. HASTINGS. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
On behalf of Mr. Payne, I offer this measure, and wish to make a few remarks that Mr. Payne asked that should be included in the record, and I ask unanimous consent that his full statement be permitted to be placed in the record.
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Payne appears in the appendix.]
Mr. HASTINGS. Mr. Chairman, as you well know, our colleague——
Chairman GILMAN. Would the gentleman withhold, please?
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The clerk will report the amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Amendment in the nature of a substitute offered by Mr. Payne to House Concurrent Resolution——
Mr. HASTINGS. I ask unanimous consent that the amendment be considered as read, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute is considered as having been read and open to amendment at any point.
[The amendment appears in the appendix.]
The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Hastings, is recognized for 5 minutes on the amendment.
Mr. HASTINGS. Mr. Chairman, I shall not take the 5 minutes. Mr. Payne is in New Jersey, as we speak, on the tarmac, and could not be here himself but seriously regrets his inability to move this measure. He said thank you for calling this markup on religious persecution in Germany. It shows a real commitment and dedication in order for us to constructively deal with the problem of religious and cultural persecution.
In February of this year we held a press conference to call attention to the problem in Germany. At that time Anne Archer and Isaac Hayes and Chic Corea came to testify about their treatment and the treatment of many others in Germany.
He wishes to say, Mr. Chairman, and in his own words, ''that I have always spoken out on religious and artistic freedom. When our citizens visit and work abroad, they should be able to live in peace, without fear of persecution or being mistreated by the host government.''
Mr. Chairman, as you have indicated that we have the ability to place the rest of Mr. Payne's statement in the record, I wish it to be understood that by placing it in the record does not mean that the force of his words should be ignored. Don has been working in this area for a very long time, and I thank you for bringing this matter up and urge its adoption, and I yield back at this time.
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Chairman GILMAN. I thank the gentleman.
Mr. Salmon.
Mr. SALMON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First I would like to thank my colleague, Mr. Payne, for sponsoring this important resolution. I have enjoyed working with him in developing today's substitute amendment. I also want to thank the Chairman, Ranking Member, and the Department of State for their meaningful input in drafting this revised resolution.
I feel this resolution is both timely and necessary in bringing religious discrimination to minority religions in Germany to an end. German Government discrimination against individuals because of religious beliefs, particularly against U.S. citizens, can no longer be tolerated.
Scientologists, Charismatic Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims have all experienced varying degrees of discrimination at the hands of the German Government. Some of the examples:
In 1991 Chancellor Kohl's party, the Christian Democratic Union, known as the CDU, banned Scientologists from membership. Other parties followed the CDU's lead, and today Scientologists are not allowed to belong to any of Germany's major parties. The CDU membership form even requires an applicant to attest that he is not a Scientologist before he is allowed to join the party.
Pastor Terry Jones of the Christian Church of Cologne has been subjected to intense media campaigns to discredit his religion and an attempt to remove their tax-free status. Charisma Magazine quotes Pastor Jones as saying, ''The government here is very unaccommodating. It is very anti-God. The only recognized churches are Lutheran and Catholic churches. Everything outside of that is considered a cult, and although things are a little bit more sophisticated now than at the end of World War II, you feel the same oppression and the same control.''
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The Jehovah's Witness' application for recognition as a corporation under public law was denied because the church's doctrine of political neutrality was considered to be antidemocratic.
Last, followers of the Muslim faith have been subjected to police violence, have experienced discrimination in employment in the military and in the education system.
House Concurrent Resolution 22 expresses the sense of Congress that Germany should stop discriminating against religious minorities. It also urges the President of the United States to become involved in the effort to stop this needless discrimination.
Just in closing, I have a few comments that I would like to share as a member of the Council on Cooperation and Security in Eastern Europe. I was privileged to hear a full day of testimony from various religious groups who had endured persecution at the hands of the German Government. Mr. Chairman, many of those testimonies brought tears to my eyes because I reflected on the background of my ancestors.
As many of you probably know, I am a member of the Mormon religion, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and not so long ago, a little over a hundred years ago in this country there were those who were calling my church a cult. In fact, in Missouri, the Governor of Missouri signed an extermination order to force the Mormons out of Missouri, and if they didn't leave peaceably then it was open season, you could go ahead and kill them. Well, that happened in this very country, in spite of the fact that 200 years ago a band of rebels got together and decided that on this continent that we stood for something different, that we stood for religious freedom, that we stood for the ability for any individual in this country to stand up and worship according to the dictates of their own conscience.
As we have gone forward and we have talked about human rights and we have decried some of the atrocities in China, I have to ask this because I have heard from some, ''Gosh, we don't want to upset the apple cart. Germany is an ally. We don't want to say anything that might annoy them, that might upset them.'' Well, if we can't speak honestly with our friends, then what right do we have to say anything to those with whom we have a more tenuous relationship such as China?
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We have to be painfully honest with our friends and our allies, and they have to know what we stand for. We stand for religious tolerance, and if we don't stand for that, well, then we ought not be here. It is the most fundamental belief that Americans hold, and we don't only hold it for the citizens of this country, we hold it for the world at large.
Thank you. I hope you can all support this amendment.
Mr. BEREUTER. [Presiding.] Are there other Members seeking recognition?
The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. HAMILTON. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
First of all, let me say at the outset that like many Members of the Committee, I have had the opportunity to talk with a number of the Scientologists, and I really don't have much doubt that they have some legitimate grievances about the conduct of the German Government and perhaps some of the what we would call State governments in Germany as well.
This is a difficult matter for me. I think what you really have here are two very different kind of world perspectives, on the one hand the German Government and on the other hand the Scientologists, and it is very, very difficult to bring them into any kind of dialog.
One of the things that concerns me most deeply here is that so far as I know, we have not really had any conversation or dialog with the German Government as this Committee. As I understand the process of what has happened here, and I may not know all of it, we have had a lot of contacts by Scientologists with Members of the Committee, who have grievances, I grant, and we are acting on the basis of that, but we are not acting on the basis of having talked at any length with the Germans.
Now I am not here to defend everything that Germany has done with respect to the Scientologists, but it is also true that the U.S.-German relationship is among the most important bilateral relationships in the world. It is a terribly important ally for us, and it does seem to me at the very least we owe them as friends and allies and partners the obligation to consult with them very carefully before we move forward on a resolution that I gather to be, on the basis of the letter by the German ambassador, deeply offensive to the Germans.
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He wrote a letter to the Chairman of this Committee in which he commented that he thought that the allegations in the letter were unfounded and absurd. It is hard for me to sort out all the facts here, and I was a little surprised, I must say, by the vehemence of the German ambassador's letter.
I would, Mr. Chairman, like to ask the Administration a couple of questions here if I may.
Chairman GILMAN. Who do we have from the Administration here?
Would you please identify yourself?
Mr. KLOSSON. Michael Klosson. I am a Deputy Assistant Secretary in Legislative Affairs at the State Department.
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Klosson, thank you for being with us this morning. You have had an opportunity to look at this resolution, and I would just like to get a sense of whether you think it will advance or detract from our efforts to protect the rights of U.S. citizens in Germany and to secure fair treatment for the Scientologists.
Mr. KLOSSON. Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.
We agree that this is obviously a very important issue but a complicated one, since you are dealing with an important friend and ally of the United States. We have had discussions with staff and we have been involved in refinements of the resolution as it has been prepared. We appreciate the attention to detail in the resolution, and the current version reflects a lot of work and improvements.
As I think the Committee knows, the Administration has been engaged with German officials here in Washington, at posts and in our embassy in Bonn on this issue. It is one where we are seeking to promote the objective of ensuring that the Scientologists and other religious minority groups have the right of free association respected and the right to practice their religions freely respected.
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I think overall our position on this resolution is that we do not oppose it; that is, obviously, that we don't want an issue to disrupt our relations with Germany.
Mr. HAMILTON. OK. You don't oppose the resolution, and it is a matter of fact, isn't it, that the Department of State in your human rights report has been quite critical of Germany from time to time on acts of discrimination against the members of the Church of Scientology?
Mr. KLOSSON. There are a number of paragraphs on this issue in our 1996 report.
Mr. HAMILTON. All right. So you think that obviously the resolution will pass. What kind of a problem do you think it creates, if it does pass, with the German Government?
Mr. KLOSSON. We have been encouraging Members of Congress, obviously, to bring up these concerns with German Bundestag members coming through town, so I think that is the light in which we approach this resolution.
Mr. HAMILTON. And our government will continue to press the issue of fair treatment for the Scientologists in Germany?
Mr. KLOSSON. Yes.
Mr. HAMILTON. And we will do so with vigor, I trust?
Mr. KLOSSON. Certainly that is what we have been doing.
Mr. HAMILTON. All right, sir.
Mr. Chairman, I will not oppose this resolution. I did want to put this on the record. I would like to ask that the German ambassador's letter be made part of the record, if that is appropriate, at this point.
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection.
Mr. BEREUTER. Reserving the right to object.
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Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. It is such a strong letter, it was this Member's intention to read the letter, if that would be appropriate.
Mr. HAMILTON. It is quite appropriate as far as I am concerned.
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, we will read the letter as part of your statement.
[The letter is read by Mr. Bereuter on page 10.]
Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. Campbell.
I'm sorry, Mr. Manzullo asked for recognition first.
Mr. MANZULLO. I think it is important that the United States do whatever is necessary, even if it involves some of our closest allies, to always bring to the attention of governing authorities that lack of religious liberty for one group is lack of religious liberty for all groups.
As one goes into the Jefferson Memorial, as Mr. Jefferson sits you can see one of the four marble tablets, and the one that is to his immediate right is very simple. It says, ''God, who gave us life, gave us liberty, can the liberties of a Nation be thought secure if a Nation is removed so from a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?'' We hold religious liberties in this country very close to our hearts because we realize that nations have been founded, wars have been fought and people have been slaughtered over protection of religious liberties, and that the first indicia of despotism in any group is an attack upon religious liberties.
I realize that our German allies may be upset, but they should be upset. If they are upset with the fact that the United States is calling to their attention the fact that they are discriminating against people of religion, then let it be that way. The United States should have some type of a moral compass in this world, and just to stand by and to do nothing in light of the fact that these types of attacks upon religious liberty are taking place, as far as this Member of Congress is concerned, is to simply fuel more and more of this type behavior which is totally unacceptable to us as people who live in the free world.
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Therefore, I would wholeheartedly support this resolution.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Campbell, before we continue with a vote on, I am going to ask our Members if they would be kind enough to return. We can move quite quickly for the rest of our agenda, and I assure you we will wind up at a very early hour.
Mr. Campbell.
Mr. CAMPBELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My colleagues, I propose a very simple approach: Before we pass resolutions condemning other countries, we have a hearing and we let them speak. I have no idea whether these charges are right or wrong. I am hesitant to reach a conclusion when we have not held a hearing and invited Germany to give us their point of view.
I have the greatest respect for Don Payne. He is as fine a Member as I know of this Committee, and I am sorry he is not here. I also want to put on the record I know that he is on business of our country, traveling to Africa at a critical time right now, and he is doing a great job. I am sorry he is not here, but I cannot support this when we have not invited the country relevant to the issue to come and tell us their point of view so that I can form the judgment.
Mr. HASTINGS. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. CAMPBELL. I will be pleased to yield to my colleague from Arizona.
Mr. SALMON. Thank you very much.
Mr. Campbell, I respect your concerns. I know that I have now sat on this Committee 3 years, and we have passed resolution after resolution after resolution. In fact, just a few weeks ago we passed several regarding China. I don't recall any Chinese officials coming to testify before this Committee. It happens all the time.
As far as hearings are concerned, we held a full day of hearings on the Council of Cooperation and Security in Eastern Europe over in the Senate, which is comprised of both House and Senate Members.
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Documentation through testimony, reports from the Department of State categorizing some of the atrocities that have happened or the discriminations that have happened in Germany, the documentation is there. All we are asking for is a sense of Congress to uphold the most fundamental American belief.
Mr. CAMPBELL. Could I reclaim my time?
I heard your arguments on the merits, and I found them compelling, and you have every reason with your experience in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to worry about persecution. I take your point profoundly.
But what I am proposing is a rule, modus operandi, for us and would it not be preferable before we, us, our Committee pass resolutions condemning countries, that we invite their ambassador to speak? And then this Committee can ask. I think it is a much better way to proceed.
Thank you. With that I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Point of inquiry, Mr. Chairman: Is it the tradition and practice of the Committee to invite ambassadors to testify on legislation? I was given the understanding that they are not to testify.
Chairman GILMAN. And as often happens, we have done that on occasion but it is not a standard practice.
Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. So as a rule, but it could be an exception, as a rule we don't invite ambassadors to testify?
Chairman GILMAN. Right, an informal rule that we have not, the exception that we have done it on several occasions.
Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Faleomavaega.
Mr. Bereuter.
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Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I must say I was surprised to see this resolution up today. I don't feel that I am prepared with the facts to take it up, but I do want to share with the Members the contents of a letter sent to the Chairman and the Ranking Member, because I think it is an extraordinarily strong statement that the Members ought to hear, and a couple of items from an enclosure.
''Dear Mr. Chairman: I am writing you about H. Con. Res. 22 concerning alleged discrimination by the German Government against members of minority religious groups. The draft resolution I have seen contains allegations against the German Federal and State Governments which are entirely unfounded and absurd, and I emphatically reject them.
''As you know, Germany is a free country in which religious freedom is guaranteed under the Constitution, thus sacrosanct. Indeed, this fact was clearly confirmed in the latest U.S. Department of State Country Report on Human Rights. Furthermore, I would like to add that no artist from the United States associated with certain religious minorities has been denied the right to perform in Germany.
''I have enclosed information about the Scientology organization and the Cologne Christian Community which speaks for itself. If you review it carefully, you will find that the German authorities have not disturbed the practice of religious freedom. Rather, on the contrary, there are increasing indications that the Scientology organization uses totalitarianism and thus unconstitutional means to oppress its members and their families.
''Germany is a close and trusted U.S. ally. If the current draft resolution were to come before your Committee and to the floor of the House of Representatives''——
Chairman GILMAN. If the gentleman would withhold a moment, we hope to have a vote very quickly, so please stay with us, if you would, and we will conclude very quickly.
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Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. ''If it did come to the floor, such a move would be incomprehensible to my government, the German parliament and the German public. Moreover, it would be inconsistent with the excellent status of our bilateral relations and indeed could harm them.
''I would be very grateful if you would take these concerns into account in deciding how to proceed. In the past months I have attempted several times to arrange employment with the cosponsors of an earlier draft of this resolution in order to explain the German position on the Scientology organization. Regrettably, the congressional Members do not wish to meet with me on this matter.
''It therefore goes without saying I will be happy to discuss the matter with you any time. I will send copies of this letter to the Ranking Minority Member of the International Relations Committee, Mr. Hamilton.''
And it is dated 29 October.
Just a brief two points. Enclosed, I cannot verify these, this is material submitted. It adds, in writing, ''Scientology organization claims it is internationally recognized as a religion except in Germany. This is false. Among the countries that do not consider Scientology a religion are Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Ireland Italy, Luxembourg and Spain, as well as Israel and Mexico.''
Then regarding its nonprofit status, it has this to say, based upon the Cologne Christian community: ''After thorough review of that organization, the German tax authorities have found that the conditions under which this sect was originally recognized as a nonprofit organization no longer exist. For this reason, the Christian Community of Cologne will be assessed taxes from now on as other non-charitable organizations. This matter is appealing before the tax court. Therefore I cannot take a position on the discrimination charges at this time.''
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Mr. HASTINGS. Would the gentleman yield just very briefly?
I thank my friend for yielding. I want to put on the record that Mr. Payne categorically rejects the notion that he was unavailable, failed to respond to any inquiry with reference to this matter. As a matter of fact, Mr. Payne has been in Germany twice and has actively sought to discuss the matter, and just from his perspective, not from mine, I would like that to be on the record. Thank you.
Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Will the gentleman yield?
Chairman GILMAN. Please be brief, gentlemen. We want to get the vote——
Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Just one sentence of the ambassador's letter saying that the Scientology organization uses totalitarian and thus unconstitutional means to oppress members and its families, I'm a little fuzzy on this. Are there any specific allegations from the German ambassador's correspondence to verify these?
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I am not a proponent or opponent. I am completely surprised that we are marking this legislation up with inadequate information. I do not want to oppose a resolution that perhaps is a good one, but I am not prepared to vote for a resolution, having not heard both sides of the story.
Mr. FOX. Call for the vote.
Chairman GILMAN. Yes. The question is now on the amendment in the nature of a substitute, as amended. As many as are in favor of the amendment signify in the usual manner. As many as opposed say nay.
The gentleman——
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, abstaining.
Chairman GILMAN. The amendment is agreed to.
The gentleman from Nebraska is recognized.
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Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I wish to be reported as abstaining.
Chairman GILMAN. The gentleman from Arizona.
Mr. SALMON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I move that the Chairman be requested to seek consideration of this measure on the Suspension Calendar.
Chairman GILMAN. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Arizona. As many as are in favor of the motion, so signify.
As many as are opposed, say no.
The ayes appear to have it. The ayes have it. The motion is agreed to. Further proceedings on this measure are postponed. The gentleman from Nebraska's vote will be indicated as abstaining.
Chairman GILMAN. The Committee will come to order. Members please take their seats.
The next measure we will take up is H. Con. Res. 152, a measure relating to Northern Ireland. The Chair lays the measure before the Committee.
The clerk will report the title of the resolution.
Ms. BLOOMER. House Concurrent Resolution 152, expressing the sense of the Congress that all parties to the multiparty peace talks regarding Northern Ireland should condemn violence and fully integrate internationally recognized human rights standards and adequately address outstanding human rights violations as part of the peace process.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will read the preamble and operative language of the resolution for amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Concurrent resolution. Whereas approximately 3,500 people have died and thousands more have been injured as a result of the political violence in Northern Ireland since 1969; whereas both loyalists——
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Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I would ask unanimous consent that the resolution be considered as read.
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the preamble and operative text of the resolution is considered as having been read and is open to amendment at any point.
[The resolution appears in the appendix.]
The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from New Jersey, the chairman of the Subcommittee on International Organizations and Human Rights, Mr. Smith.
Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment in the nature of a substitute at the desk.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will report the amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Amendment offered by Mr. Smith of New Jersey. Strike the preamble and all that follows and insert the following, whereas approximately——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute is considered as having been read and is open to amendment at any point.
[The amendment appears in the appendix.]
The gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Smith, is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
As everyone is aware, the British and Irish Governments face an unprecedented opportunity to achieve real peace in Northern Ireland. For the first time since the partition of Ireland in 1922, all parties are participating in peace talks while the cease-fire is in effect.
Our Subcommittee on International Operations and Human Rights has held two hearings on human rights abuses in Northern Ireland and on the prospects for improved human rights conditions as part of the current peace talks.
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At our hearings, international and American human rights experts, as well as victims and relatives of victims, provided compelling and eye-opening testimony about human rights abuses, the disregard for the rule of law, and the personal tragedies people in Northern Ireland have endured. All of our witnesses welcomed the interest and the support of the U.S. Government and affirmed that American standards and ideals are critical to the success of the process.
After the first hearing, I led a human rights peace mission to the north of Ireland. I met with leaders from political parties on all sides of the conflict and with key officials in the government, including Secretary of State Mulholland. I am pleased by Secretary of State Mulholland's intimate understanding of the human rights concerns, and I remain hopeful that human rights protections will be afforded to members of all communities in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Chairman, while I am optimistic, I do remain cautious in that optimism. Unfortunately, not even the best of intentions guarantee that the final agreement will genuinely protect human rights and peace processes around the world.
Most recently in Bosnia and Guatemala, we have seen that in the atmosphere of these negotiations, the pressure to get an agreement and the reluctance to perhaps reopen old wounds can have the unfortunate side effect of making human rights an afterthought rather than a central element to the agreement.
The resolution before us today addresses this concern and puts the Congress on record supporting human rights reforms in the north of Ireland. The text of the resolution is the culmination of information gathered on the trip and the hearings. It identifies abuses and pronounces some recommendations for advancing the ball on human rights and hopefully building a lasting peace for the north of Ireland.
Witness after witness at our hearing expressed fear that as political issues were addressed, universally recognized human rights, such as the right to remain silent when accused of wrongdoing, the right to a jury trial, the right to prompt access to attorneys, and the right to work free of discrimination, to name just a few, perhaps might be neglected.
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Our resolution, which has broad bipartisan support, notifies the negotiators in Belfast that the U.S. Congress believes that human rights do matter and they ought to be part of the process. The resolution condemns political violence on any side and all sides, and also suggests the establishment of a bill of rights for all citizens of the north.
It recommends consideration of a truth commission, with international input, to investigate some of the outstanding human rights abuses that have gone on; the repeal of the so-called emergency legislation which has limited human rights in Northern Ireland for over 25 years; the establishment of a truly independent complaints mechanism for citizens' inquiries regarding the Royal Ulster Constabulary, or the RUC, and other security forces; and a ban on plastic bullets.
Let me just say that this resolution has been reviewed and endorsed by virtually all of the major human rights groups such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the British Irish Rights Watch, the Committee on the Administration of Justice, and the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights.
In addition, the Irish National Caucus, the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and the Hibernian Civil Rights Coalition have all urged swift passage of this Northern Ireland human rights resolution.
We have in this amendment in the nature of a substitute added what I think are some very fine new sections, including commending Senator George Mitchell, who is the independent chairman of the talks and author of the Mitchell Principles, a set of standards signed by all the participants at the talks rejecting violence and stating their support for a resolution achieved through peaceful democratic means. I think it will be very helpful.
And, again, I heard in Ireland when I was there how they are looking to America. What does America believe? They know the Clinton Administration is supportive of this. It would be, I think, very advantageous to the process that the House as well firmly go on record in support of this process.
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Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Smith.
Do any other Members seek recognition?
Mr. HOUGHTON. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Bereuter and then Mr. Houghton.
Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As I said to my colleague from New Jersey a few minutes ago, I have never understood the religious, ethnic, or national basis for the violence that goes on in Northern Ireland. I have just sort of said I don't understand that; hopefully sometime rationality will prevail.
But I would like to know, if I may ask just a couple of questions, not rhetorical or argumentative but just for factual information, what would be, if you know, the position of the Irish Government and the British Government, the United Kingdom Government, on this resolution?
Mr. SMITH. We have consulted with our government, the Irish Government, the British Government. The British Government made some suggestions—as a matter of fact, it was their idea—that we include the Mitchell language in this particular resolution.
We struck some of the references to Britain in the original text out of deference to the fact that they are, indeed, trying, and I think earnestly trying, to make the process work. And that, I think, mitigates any sense of inflammatory aspects to the bill.
And in terms of our own government, you know, if the Administration wants to comment, I would appreciate that, but we have been in contact with Senator Mitchell's office in Ireland—he has a staff working there—and while they are not in a position to endorse or say no, at least they conveyed to us that this in no way hinders what they are trying to do. They didn't think it was right for them to take a position on the legislation.
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Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you.
I will ask the Administration if they could come to the desk, but I have another question to the gentleman from New Jersey.
The language that was in the original and is in the substitute, the first Resolved clause, is it factually true that the violence was, in part, committed by agents of the British Government, and do they have a reaction to that?
Mr. SMITH. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that agents of the British Government and law enforcement officials over the last two and a half decades have conspired in and actually have been convicted, with less frequency than other people, but have been convicted of crimes perpetrated against people in the north of Ireland. So it is factually correct.
And other Whereases in this resolution were drawn right out of the Country Reports and Human Rights Practices issued by the State Department.
Mr. BEREUTER. I thank the gentleman for his straightforward response. I appreciate that very much.
Could I ask the Administration, does the——
Chairman GILMAN. If the witness would identify himself.
Mr. KLOSSON. Michael Klosson, in Legislative Affairs at the State Department.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Klosson, thank you very much.
Would you tell me if the Administration supports this resolution as redrafted through the substitute?
Mr. KLOSSON. Mr. Bereuter, I haven't had a chance to fully study the redraft of the resolution. What I can say is that we understand the Committee's concerns about the peace process and human rights and the security situation in Northern Ireland.
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And what I would point out is that many of the specific issues that are raised in this resolution are also being dealt with right now in the multiparty talks that are underway under Senator Mitchell's chairmanship. And the talks, I think, have entered a pretty delicate stage, and we, the Administration, are concerned that the timing of the resolution could perhaps actually complicate those talks. It might be perceived by parties to the talks as sort of outside interference and an attempt to sort of prejudge things that are under negotiation.
So what our view on this resolution is based on is a question of timing.
Mr. BEREUTER. All right. I understand that.
Are there any provisions in the redraft of which you have become aware already that you find objectionable?
Mr. KLOSSON. I have not had a chance to go through it line-by-line in the time that we have had.
Mr. BEREUTER. So at this moment you do not have any specific objections because you have not had time?
Mr. KLOSSON. Correct.
Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you very much.
I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. SMITH. Would the gentleman yield?
Chairman GILMAN. With respect to the note with regard to timing, I recall a famous statement by Martin Luther King which fits this issue of timing. It is always the right time to do the right thing.
Mr. Smith.
Mr. SMITH. Nothing, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Houghton.
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Mr. HOUGHTON. Well, just a brief personal comment. I can't imagine—if the Administration witness would listen to me for a second. Hello.
Mr. KLOSSON. Excuse me, sir.
Mr. HOUGHTON. I can't imagine this would be particularly helpful in these talks, because there is inflammatory language that springs up on both sides. And could you reiterate your position before—that you just mentioned about timing?
Chairman GILMAN. Again, would you identify yourself?
Mr. KLOSSON. Michael Klosson, State Department.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you.
Mr. KLOSSON. No, I think the point I was trying to make is that right now is a particularly delicate time. The IRA—the cease-fire has been restored, and Sinn Fein had been invited to the table, and they are at the table. As I understand it, the major Unionist party for the first time ever is at the table.
The British and Irish Governments are fully engaged in trying to keep this process moving forward. And we are concerned that this resolution at this time could actually be perceived as outside interference in this process; that some of the parties in the process might perceive it in that fashion.
Mr. HOUGHTON. OK. Thank you very much.
Mr. SMITH. Would the gentleman yield for a second?
Mr. Houghton, would you yield?
Mr. HOUGHTON. Yes.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Houghton has the time.
Mr. HOUGHTON. Yes, absolutely.
Mr. SMITH. Let me respond to two points made. First of all, the language that we are offering today as an amendment to the underlying resolution was faxed to the Administration in early October, so this isn't the first time you are seeing this text.
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In terms of the legislative form on this particular White Paper, paragraph after paragraph is identical with what we sent to you several weeks ago. So, you know, you have not read it after several weeks perhaps laying on your desk.
Second, we deliberately delayed pushing this in September because there was, and I would suggest, a legitimate concern that before, as Mulholland put it to me, they actually put their legs under the table, Sinn Fein, the people on the Protestant side, the Loyalist side, that it was important to perhaps delay not the hearings but this resolution.
But once they get their legs under the table, as she pointed out, then it is very appropriate to begin raising these issues in a substantive way. And that is why we have very strong letters of endorsement from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, British Irish—Irish Watch. The Committee on the Administration of Justice, which is in the north of Ireland, is one of the most respected groups on both sides of the issue who feel that this issue and this kind of expression by the House of Representatives advances the ball for peace and human rights.
Mr. HOUGHTON. If I can reclaim my time, my impression—and it is just an impression—is if the Administration received this document in October, they didn't like it then and they don't like it now.
Second, having done a little bit of negotiating myself, I can't think of a worse time than when you put your feet under the table to have outside influences coming in.
Mr. SMITH. OK.
Mr. ROHRABACHER. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. I thank Mr. Houghton.
Mr. Rohrabacher.
Mr. ROHRABACHER. Well, my understanding of this resolution is, the outside influence that we are trying to have is an outside influence in favor of no violence and against the abuse of British authorities and anyone else who is abusing their power in this conflict.
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I mean, that is the type of outside influence that is a good outside influence. That is the kind of outside influence the United States should be, as long there is no question in anyone's mind that we are not condoning any type of violence on the part of the IRA or anyone else involved in that type of violence, nor are we ignoring the abuses of the British Government or the Unionists in Northern Ireland, who have also committed acts of violence and perpetuated this cycle that has been unbreakable for so long.
So if we can have a chance to have a little outside interference in a positive direction, I think it is a good thing.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher.
Is anyone else seeking recognition? If not, I will speak briefly. I am pleased to support the human rights resolution on Northern Ireland by the distinguished chairman of our Subcommittee on Human Rights, Mr. Smith. I am an original cosponsor of this important proposal, and I strongly urge its adoption by our colleagues.
This Committee has held several extensive hearings on human rights and fair employment in the north of Ireland during the 104th and two in the current Congress, and I compliment Chairman Smith on his leadership.
The resolution before us embodies many of the key findings and recommendations from those hearings and from visits by Members and staff to observe firsthand underlying causes of problems in Northern Ireland.
The need for respect for human rights as an essential part of finding lasting solutions for the Northern Ireland issue I think is self-evident. Based on the long and disappointing history of Northern Ireland and the many previous failed attempts at political solutions, we cannot neglect fundamental respect for human rights.
The need for reform, especially in the treatment of the minority nationalist community, should not be overlooked. Helping to make human rights a centerpiece of the solutions to the long divisive troubles in the north of Ireland will have an important and salutary impact on the current peace talks now underway in Belfast.
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After many years of following very closely and visiting on numerous occasions in Northern Ireland, I have very strongly urged support for this human rights initiative before us.
Former Irish President, Mary Robinson, who is now our U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, said it best last week in her visit to Capitol Hill, making the point that the adoption of human rights guarantees—and I quote—''is a very important part of a sustainable peace in Northern Ireland.''
Father Sean McManus of the Irish National Caucus, in supporting this resolution, said—and I quote—''it is a violation of human rights that has been the fundamental cause of the troubles in Northern Ireland.''
Accordingly, I urge adoption of the resolution by all those concerned about securing lasting peace and justice in Northern Ireland.
And I would like to make a part of the record human rights groups' endorsement of H. Con. Res. 152 by the Human Rights Watch, by Amnesty International, by the British Irish Rights Watch, by the Committee on the Administration of Justice and the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights.
I also would like to make a part of the record a letter from the Irish National Caucus by President and Father Sean McManus dated October 29th, 1997, urging adoption of this resolution.
[The information mentioned above appears in the appendix.]
Chairman GILMAN. If there are no further Members seeking recognition, the question is on the amendment in the nature of a substitute. As many as are in favor of the amendment in the nature of a substitute, say aye.
As many as are opposed, say no.
The amendment is agreed to. The gentleman from New Jersey is recognized to offer a motion.
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Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I move that the chairman be requested to seek consideration of H. Con. Res. 152, as amended, on the Suspension Calendar.
Chairman GILMAN. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from New Jersey. As many as are in favor of the motion, say aye.
As many as are opposed, say no.
The ayes appear to have it. The ayes have it, and the motion is agreed to, and further proceedings are postponed.
Chairman GILMAN. The next measure before us is H. Res. 273, condemning military intervention by the Government and Republic of Angola.
The Chair lays the measure before the Committee. The clerk will report the title of the resolution.
Ms. BLOOMER. House Resolution 273, condemning the military intervention by the Government of the Republic of Angola into the Republic of the Congo, and for other purposes.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will read the preamble and the operative language of the resolution for amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Resolution. Whereas President Pascal Lissouba defeated former President Denis Sassou-Nguesso in a 1992 election——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the preamble and operative text of the resolution is considered as having been read and open to amendment at any point.
[The resolution appears in the appendix.]
The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from California, the chairman of our Subcommittee on Africa, Mr. Royce.
Mr. ROYCE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have an amendment at the desk.
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Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will report the amendment.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Who is seeking recognition?
Mr. MENENDEZ. The author.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Menendez.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Is it possible for me to speak on it before we start amending it? Not that I will have any problems with Mr. Royce's amendment.
Chairman GILMAN. Ordinarily we allow the sponsor, the Subcommittee chairman, to place it before the Committee, and I will be pleased to entertain——
Mr. MENENDEZ. I am the sponsor.
Chairman GILMAN. Pardon me?
Mr. MENENDEZ. I am the sponsor.
Chairman GILMAN. You are the sponsor. In that case——
Mr. ROYCE. Mr. Chairman, let me say staff has instructed us that this is the way to proceed. But I fully intended to recognize the sponsor of the amendment, and I wish to do so at this time.
Chairman GILMAN. The gentleman from New Jersey is recognized.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I don't have any problem with the amendments that Mr. Royce is going to be offering soon, but I do just want to make some comments about the resolution itself, and I want to thank you for expeditiously bringing it before the Committee; and Mr. Royce, as the chairman of the Subcommittee, for having done so as well.
Last Saturday, Mr. Sassou-Nguesso was sworn in as the ''President''—and I put that in quotes—of the Republic of Congo, after seizing power from the democratically elected Government, with the help of the Angolan military and with virtually no opposition from the international community. The French ambassador even went to the swearing-in ceremony.
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This resolution addresses three very important issues: First, the Angolan Government's military incursion into the Republic of Congo in violation of the Lusaka Protocol, the U.N. and OAU charters, to help unseat the democratically elected Government of Pascal Lissouba; and, second, the lackadaisical response from the international community, including the U.S. Government, to Angola's actions and the overthrow of the Congolese Government; and, third, the imposition of sanctions on UNITA by the U.N. Security Council yesterday, without regard or mention of the Angolan Government's violations of the Lusaka Protocol. I know that is going to be the subject of one of the amendments.
Unlike the situation in the former Zaire, where Mr. Kabila unseated long-time dictator Mobutu—and I don't even, under those circumstances, believe that one country should be going into another, but Angola has helped to unseat a democratically elected President in the Republic of Congo.
The U.S. response has been woefully inadequate. We should be calling for the restoration of the democratically elected Government of Pascal Lissouba. Instead, it is pursuing a policy of working with former dictator Nguesso as if he had a legitimate mandate from the Congolese people.
The precedent being sent and the message being heard in Africa, in my view, is that it is all right to oppose a democratic government if you have allies in the West. I don't think that that is a message that we want to send anywhere in the world, nor do I think that it is consistent with the U.S. policy toward Africa, which seeks to strengthen democracy and the rule of law.
I am extremely disappointed by yesterday's imposition of sanctions on UNITA by the U.N. Security Council. While I agree that UNITA's progress has been insufficient, at least in part UNITA's inaction has been perpetuated by President Dos Santos' use of excessive force in the extension of State Administration to Cuango and his refusal to meet with Dr. Savimbi this week to discuss the extension of State Administration to Andulo and Bailundo, as he had previously agreed to.
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And, furthermore, I think it is disingenuous to sanction UNITA for noncompliance when the government itself has violated the Lusaka Protocol, constructed barriers to progress by refusing to meet with Dr. Savimbi, cultivated mistrust by using excessive force in the extension of State Administration, and resisted progress in the real integration of UNITA troops into the Angolan military.
The United States needs to send a strong message to Angola, in my view, by withholding further IMET assistance until Angola has fully withdrawn all troops and military assistance from the Republic of Congo, but Congress should also give serious consideration to whether or not it is appropriate to be extending military assistance and foregoing military-to-military contacts with a country which is engaged in cross-border military incursions.
Moreover, I seriously question if it is a responsible policy to be providing Angola with such assistance in advance of the full implementation of the Lusaka Protocol and the creation of a meaningful role for former UNITA members in the Angolan military.
We are at a crucial juncture in the Angolan peace process. The Angolan Government's actions in the Republic of Congo and the U.N. Security Council's imposition of sanctions are likely to hinder rather than advance the timetable for peace in Angola.
I am deeply disappointed by the response of the U.S. Government and the United Nations to the Angolans' military incursion into the Congo. I hope the Congress will not be confronted with a situation where the U.S. response to the takeover of a democratic government is so weak that it could be interpreted as being supportive of the incident itself.
I ask my colleagues to join us in support of the resolution, and I know that there will be amendments offered by both the Chair and Mr. Royce, of which I am supportive.
Chairman GILMAN. Well, I thank the gentleman for his remarks.
Mr. Royce.
Mr. ROYCE. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Let me speak to the amendment. This was——
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Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Royce, would you call up your amendment.
Mr. ROYCE. Yes. I have an amendment at the desk.
Chairman GILMAN. The clerk will report the amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Amendment offered by Mr. Royce of California, on page 3, line 11, strike the following——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the amendment is considered as having been read and open for amendment at any point.
[The amendment appears in the appendix.]
Chairman GILMAN. The gentleman from California, Mr. Royce, is recognized for 5 minutes on his amendment and to open a discussion of the resolution.
Mr. ROYCE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
This resolution authored by Mr. Menendez concerns what should be for us on this Committee a very troubling situation that has been made worse, that has been made much worse, by Angola's armed intervention in the civil war in Congo-Brazzaville. The introduction of Angolan troops, of armor, of aircraft, tipped the balance of that civil war in favor of former President Denis Sassou-Nguesso, who was inaugurated last weekend, despite having received no popular mandate for his return as President.
The Angolan intervention has resulted in the overthrow of the Government of President Pascal Lissouba, who was elected in that country's first multiparty election in 1992, elected by a very large margin.
The fact is that Congo-Brazzaville is no more stable and peaceful today because of the Angolan intervention, and indeed it may be facing more turmoil in the coming weeks. Certainly, the Angolan soldiers made life much more difficult for the Congolese people by pounding Pointe Noire with heavy artillery for days and days and then looting that city. Those aren't the actions of genuine liberators.
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The Angolan intervention in Congo-Brazzaville, following the Angolan intervention in what was then Zaire, has led many observers to wonder if we are now in a new era on the continent in which borders and democratic elections are meaningless. The rationale by the Angolan Government that Angolan rebel forces operating in Congo-Brazzaville posed a threat to their country's sovereignty does not justify its violation of international conventions as cited in this resolution.
This intervention likely will harm the peace process in Angola itself by further hardening relations between the Angolan Government and UNITA.
I support Mr. Menendez' resolution as a timely and necessary response to this situation. I understand the Angolan Government has announced its intention to withdraw all of its forces from Congo by November 15th. This resolution lets the government know we expect them to fulfill that commitment.
My amendment to this resolution is technical in nature and serves to enhance the resolution by making the section concerning Angolan Government compliance with the Lusaka Protocol provisions more accurate. I have discussed this with Mr. Menendez, and he accepts this language as a friendly amendment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Royce. Is there further discussion on the amendment?
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I want to speak in support of the resolution and the amendment. I think the amendment certainly clarifies what the unfortunate situation is with respect to the integration of the Angolan military.
I did spend some time in Angola on two different occasions in the past. I think we should focus on clause 3 of the Resolved. It encourages the U.S. Government to condemn the military intervention by the Government of Angola into the Republic of Congo. What this is saying to the Administration is: ''Get a spine.'' We should be opposed to aggression across borders. We should be supporting of democracy even in its imperfect form.
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Section 5 cannot be taken as a rebuke to the Administration for its failure in this respect. This is a critique, a vote of no confidence in the Administration with respect to its action on Angola, and I think it is appropriate, and I commend Mr. Menendez and others who have brought this resolution before us.
Chairman GILMAN. Is there any further discussion on the amendment?
If not, the question is on the amendment. I am sorry. Mr. Campbell.
Mr. CAMPBELL. On the substance, Mr. Chairman, if it is inappropriate now I will be happy to wait.
Chairman GILMAN. Proceed, please.
Mr. CAMPBELL. If I might, I am concerned about two aspects of the resolution, and they are these: First, that the resolution does not take account of the role that UNITA probably also played in the civil war in Congo. I do not forgive, condone, look the other way in the slightest as to the action of the Angolan Government. But the record is ambiguous, at best, and possibly even the other way regarding who intervened in Congo-Brazzaville first; Dos Santos and the Government of Angola or Savimbi and UNITA?
In that regard, I tried my best to do research. I participated in the Subcommittee hearing. I raised this issue with my colleagues so they are not being taken by surprise. I asked if possibly by the time we met today there could be some answer as to whether UNITA and Savimbi had intervened first in Angola. And not that that makes their intervention right, but it certainly would be relevant to our passing a resolution, if they intervened first and then Angola intervened on the other side.
Today I do not have a definitive answer. I do share with my colleagues that I have been informed the U.N. Secretary General believes that UNITA did intervene in the civil war in Congo-Brazzaville, and that the Angolan Government claims that Savimbi, UNITA, intervened before they did. I repeat, I do not know. I do not know.
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So that's the first point. The resolution in that sense is incomplete. I share with my colleagues and the authors of this bill, this resolution, a condemnation of cross-border interventions. It is just incomplete. If indeed UNITA intervened first, that should also be condemned. And it is silent.
Second and last, Angola intervened in the civil war in Congo-Zaire, Congo-Kinshasa and it helped replace Mobutu. I think the distinction raised by the author of the resolution, the gentleman from New Jersey, is correct, that Mr. Mobutu was not democratically elected, that he was a tyrant and that that is an important distinction regarding the situation in the intervention in Congo-Brazzaville.
Nevertheless, if the author of the resolution's point is accurate—let me say, we should pay attention to the gentleman's point, that cross-border interventions are troublesome. And I believe I heard the gentleman from New Jersey say that the intervention in Congo-Zaire by Angola would also be troublesome. Granting the distinction between who was being overthrown, a cross-border intervention ought to be condemned.
So, first, I have a problem with the resolution in that it does not mention UNITA in this capacity and, second, when Angola intervened in Congo-Zaire we did not condemn. Those are reservations that I have about the resolution. And I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Campbell.
Anyone else seeking recognition? If not, as many as in favor of the amendment——
Mr. ROYCE. Mr. Chairman, if I could just take one more moment to make a point.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Royce.
Mr. ROYCE. First, the internal problems of Angola should not be exported to other countries. If the Angolan Government felt there was a problem with the Government of Congo-Brazzaville allowing arms transfers to UNITA or providing a haven for unaccounted-for UNITA forces, there were legitimate diplomatic channels that could have been used to address this.
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This is a very different situation. This is an invasion by 3,500 troops, planes, tanks, that we are talking about here.
The second point, following the Angolan Government assistance to the ADFL forces fighting against the late President Mobutu in Zaire, the Angolan Government arguably became much more aggressive in its relationship with UNITA, sending in troops to UNITA-held areas. After the Congo-Brazzaville incursion, the Angolan Government has become similarly belligerent. According to a news report from this past Wednesday, the Angolan Government threatened military action to take control of territory that had been under the control of UNITA. And the United Nations has certified that progress is being made on the extension of territorial administration from UNITA to the Government in Angola, so such aggressive posturing is not necessary.
And the last point raised, the form of Angolan intervention in the former Zaire was materially different than that used in this case. At the time of the Zairian civil war, it was not confirmed that Angolan troops were on the ground in Zaire. The Angolan Government was reported to have provided arms and facilitated the return of Zairian nationals who had been living in Angola. It was much later that reports of Angolan troops on the ground began to surface, and even now there is uncertainty about whether those reports are true or not.
In Congo-Brazzaville we know the situation. The Angolan Government not only sent in massive supplies of sophisticated weaponry but they also sent in troops. They used air power to seize control of a Congolese city, and that is a direct and blatant violation of the territorial integrity of Congo. That similar situation never happened in that same sense in Zaire. So these are the points that I would just like to make in rebuttal, and I thank the Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Royce.
If there is no further discussion on the amendment, the question is on the amendment of the gentleman from California. As many as are in favor of the amendment signify in the usual manner.
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As many as are opposed, say no.
The ayes have it. The amendment is agreed to.
I have an amendment at the desk which the clerk will please report. The clerk will please read the amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Amendment by Mr. Gilman: On page 1 in the title insert after Republic of Congo——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the amendment is considered as having been read.
[The amendment appears in the appendix.]
Chairman GILMAN. I just want to speak briefly on the resolution, the amendment.
First I want to thank the chairman of the Subcommittee, Mr. Royce, and the Ranking Democratic Member, Mr. Menendez, for the excellent bipartisan work on this resolution. Before this markup, our staff shared the text of the amendment with the staff of the Ranking Democratic Member, Mr. Hamilton, and the staff of both sides of the Subcommittee on Africa.
In addition, we have worked closely with officials from the Administration.
This amendment makes direct reference to the recent actions of the U.N. Security Council. Strangely, the Security Council has not condemned Angola's invasion of the Republic of the Congo and its support for the overthrow of the democratically elected government of President Pascal Lissouba. The President of the Security Council has merely expressed, I quote, ''grave concern over the presence of the Angolan armed elements in the Republic of Congo.''
In my view, this response is woefully inadequate. My amendment makes note of the failure of the Security Council to condemn Angola's actions.
The amendment also addresses the issue of the Security Council's imposition of sanctions on UNITA. Coming so close on the heels of the Government of Angola's actions in Congo, which were not condemned by the Security Council, the sanctions give the very strong appearance of an unbalanced approach to the two sides of the Angolan conflict. There is a distinct possibility that either side, UNITA or the Government of Angola, will see this unbalanced approach by the Security Council as an opportunity to act militarily against their adversary. This would destroy years of hard work by many people to bring about a peaceful solution to the Angolan conflict.
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I think it is imperative that the Congress go on record urging both sides to remain committed to the peace process and not to resort to any hostility. That is the intention of this amendment. I urge my colleagues to support it and the underlying resolution.
Is there any further discussion on the amendment? If not, the question is on——
Mr. PAYNE. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Payne.
Mr. PAYNE. Yes. I would like to rise in opposition to the amendment. I feel that the Lusaka Peace Accords have been carefully drawn. There were signatories to that agreement. Even though the last resolution I had some reservations about, but I felt that I would not speak out against the resolution of my colleague, Mr. Menendez, as we are attempting to work together on issues where we have slight differences. But I do feel compelled to oppose your amendment.
I think that Mr. Savimbi, who, as a matter of fact, 4 days ago I met with, has had ample time—you may or may not know, I just returned from a trip with U.N. Ambassador Richardson and Mr. Wolpe; visited Congo-Kinshasa; visited Angola and met with Dr. Savimbi.
We then went to Kigali and met with Vice President Kagame; went to Addis, met in Addis and in Eritrea with Prime Minister Meles and President Isaias; went to Kenya, met with President Moi; and also went to Geneva and met with the High Commissioner on Refugees, Ms. Ugata, and High Commissioner on Human Rights, Ms. Robinson.
And I would simply like to say that we approached Dr. Savimbi about his refusal. He hasn't turned over senior officers. He has refused to demobilize 10,000 weapons. He has not given an honest account of his officers and his soldiers. The United Nations has even given him an opportunity to comply, and in September they extended the 30-day sanctions. So I think that this sends a wrong message to the United Nations. I think that it is wrong at this time for us to take this action, and I would urge my colleagues to vote no on the amendment.
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Chairman GILMAN. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. PAYNE. Yes.
Chairman GILMAN. I thank the gentleman for his remarks. We also thank him for having gone to the Congo to take a good hard look at the problems there.
With the imposition of sanctions on UNITA by the U.N. Security Council, tensions in Angola right now are high—and I think the gentleman recognizes that—the highest that they have been in the last 3 years, since the signing of the Lusaka Protocol. I believe it is imperative that the Congress remind both sides that a return to war is unacceptable, and I think the gentleman would agree to that.
Renewed hostilities would result in a collapse of the peace process and a total isolation of the offending party. The purpose of my amendment is to urge both sides to abide by the Lusaka Protocol and not return to war, and I hope that the gentleman would be supportive of our amendment.
Are there any further comments? Mr. Campbell.
Mr. CAMPBELL. Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Mr. Chairman, addressing a comment to my colleague from New Jersey. In your absence, I tried to explain to the Committee where you were on the Scientology matter, and I am glad you are back for this one.
Mr. PAYNE. Right.
Mr. CAMPBELL. I take every point that you make, and I don't see what is wrong with the text of the Chairman's amendment. I am reading it line-by-line. It takes note of the Security Council's failure to condemn the action. I don't know if you heard my comments earlier, but I thought it would have been wiser had this resolution been cognizant of UNITA's actions in Angola as well. So I made my point and put that on the record.
But I don't see in this resolution, and I am going to yield to my colleague from New Jersey if he would be so kind, what line or clause is wrong in Chairman Gilman's amendment. Because I don't quite see it, and if you don't want to be put on the spot, I understand that, too.
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Mr. PAYNE. No. Let me take another quick look.
Mr. CAMPBELL. Sure. I would yield to my colleague.
In the meantime, I would just say that I think the Chairman's amendment takes note, it does not condemn what the Security Council did, and it is appropriate to take note of it. My problems with the resolution remain, that while we were a little bit premature perhaps in condemning only one activity, but I am reading it with care and I don't see anything in the Chairman's amendment.
You might want to vote no on the bill, on the resolution. I might want to do that, too. But with that, I yield back, and my good friend can claim his own time if he wishes to.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. I thank the gentleman for his remarks.
Mr. Menendez.
Mr. MENENDEZ. Very briefly, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Payne and I are normally in agreement 98 percent of the time, which is more than the time that I am in agreement with my wife, so it is a pretty good record.
Having said that, let me say that this is one of the rare occasions in which I am not in agreement with him. I think that your particular amendment is benign as it pretty much cuts it down the middle, going both ways, admonishing both sides, and recognizing that there have been shortcomings on both sides. And in that respect, I urge support of your amendment.
Chairman GILMAN. I thank the gentleman.
Mr. Payne.
Mr. PAYNE. All right. Well, Mr. Chairman, because of the time, I won't ask for a roll call but I will not formally oppose your amendment.
My point, though, was that now that I read it more carefully, it is a benign amendment. A benign amendment, in an instance where there has been a violation, actually is a signal that the inaction is not as bad as other people believe.
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In other words, by saying both sides would try to get along, what you are saying is that this—and Dr. Savimbi mentioned very carefully—we asked him, why is it you move at the last minute or don't move at all?
I think, like I said, I won't oppose it but I do feel strongly that we have played along too long; there was an election that he lost and he went back to the bush with his guns several years ago. The United Nations is spending a tremendous amount of money there, and we continually drag on having sanctions against him.
Although it is benign, it shows favoritism to UNITA, and I am not surprised because our policy was very supportive of UNITA during the cold war with Mobutu in South Africa. That's why, in my opinion, Africa is in the terrible shape that it is in, because we simply supported people who opposed communism regardless of what they did to their people.
And with that, because it is late, I will withdraw my opposition. But I would look very carefully at this to see whether there will be real progress made by UNITA, who is violating the U.N. accords to this date.
Chairman GILMAN. I thank the gentleman for his support.
If there is no further discussion, the question is now on the amendment. As many as are in favor of the amendment signify in the usual manner.
Opposed, say no.
The ayes have it. The amendment is agreed to. And I recognize Mr. Bereuter for a motion.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Chairman be requested to seek consideration of this measure as amended on the Suspension Calendar.
Chairman GILMAN. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Nebraska. As many as are in favor of the motion, signify in the usual manner.
As many as are opposed, say no.
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The ayes appear to have it. The ayes have it. The motion is agreed to, and further proceedings are postponed.
I would like to recognize Ms. Shirley Cooks, the newly appointed Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Legislative Affairs responsible for the House. This is her first week, so we did not ask her to respond to our questions, but we do welcome Ms. Cooks and we look forward to working with you.
Ms. Cooks, thank you for being here.
Ms. Cooks comes to the government from the African American Institute. We look forward to having a great deal more to do with you in the days ahead.
Mr. GILMAN. Our next measure we will take up, and we are nearing the end of our calendar, is H. Con. Res. 172, a measure relating to American relations with Mongolia. This measure was considered in the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific on October 29th, reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute. The Chair lays the measure before the Committee. The clerk will report the title of the resolution.
Ms. BLOOMER. House Concurrent Resolution 172, expressing the sense of Congress in support of efforts to foster friendship and cooperation between the United States and Mongolia, and for other purposes.
[The resolution appears in the appendix.]
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute recommended by the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific will be considered as original text for the purpose of amendment. The clerk will read the preamble and operative language of the Subcommittee amendment for amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Amendment in the nature of a substitute. Strike the preamble and all that follows through the end of the resolution——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the preamble and operative text in the Subcommittee amendment are considered as having been read and open to amendment at any point.
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[The amendment appears in the appendix.]
Mr. GILMAN. The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from Nebraska, the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific, Mr. Bereuter, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Subcommittee made only minor amendments to the bill, but for procedural reasons we took the step that we did.
H. Con. Res. 172 commends the people of Mongolia for the remarkable progress that country has made since 1990. Mongolia has indeed made great strides from a one-party Communist country with a command economy to a multiparty free market democracy.
In the last 7 years Mongolia has also freed itself from Soviet domination. In a year from the fall of the Berlin Wall, the popular Mongolian legislature, whose election we are commemorating in this resolution, enacted a new constitution which declares Mongolia as an independent, sovereign republic with guaranteed civil rights and freedoms. These changes were not only dramatic in scope and speed; they were also accomplished without firing a shot and with little concrete support from the outside.
Mongolia's accomplishments are worthy of congressional commendation and it is that major thrust of H. Con. Res. 172.
Mr. Chairman, I earlier misspoke, indicating that Mr. Capps had been a cosponsor and actively involved in the Vietnam resolution. In fact, it is this resolution on which Mr. Capps was an active cosponsor, and the Subcommittee took action with respect to it and notification of his family about his participation in this, if, in fact, the House approves it. I urge my colleagues to support H. Con. Res. 172.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. Hamilton.
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Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, I commend you and the Chairman of the Subcommittee, Mr. Bereuter. The resolution, I think, recognizes the remarkable changes that have taken place in Mongolia in the past few years. The resolution certainly deserves our support.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hamilton. I too want to join in thanking the Chairman and Ranking Minority Member of the Asia and the Pacific Subcommittee for bringing this important measure before us, and I especially want to commend Congressman Porter for crafting the proposal.
Mongolia is a shining beacon of hope for those who are still living under repressive governments around the world. Mongolia is isolated, its population is small, its resources are limited, but it has enthusiastically embraced political and economic reforms that would challenge any highly industrialized nation. Its government is also aggressively trying to preserve the environment, strengthen the parliamentary and judicial system. We need to do all we can to ensure that Mongolia will be successful. I urge my colleagues to support the bill.
Are there any other Members seeking recognition? If not, the question is on the Subcommittee amendment in the nature of a substitute.
As many as are in favor of the amendment in the nature of a substitute, say aye.
As many as are opposed, say no.
The amendment is agreed to. The gentleman from Nebraska is recognized to offer a motion.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Chairman be requested to seek consideration of this measure, as amended, on the Suspension Calendar.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Nebraska. As many as in favor of the motion, signify in the usual manner.
As many as opposed, say no.
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The ayes appear to have it. The ayes have it and the motion is agreed to. Further proceedings on this measure are postponed.
Chairman GILMAN. And we now come to the last measure—I am sorry. There are two more measures on our calendar. The next measure we will take up is H. Res. 231, a measure relating to human rights in Vietnam. This measure was considered in the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific on October 29th, reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute. The Chair lays a measure before the Committee. The clerk will report the title of the resolution.
Ms. BLOOMER. House Resolution 231, urging the President to make clear to the Government of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam the commitment of the American people in support of democracy and religious and economic freedom for the people of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute recommended by the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific will be considered as original text for the purpose of amendment.
[The resolution appears in the appendix.]
The clerk will read the preamble and operative language of the Subcommittee amendment for amendment.
Ms. BLOOMER. Whereas, the Department of State Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1996——
Chairman GILMAN. WITHOUT OBJECTION, THE PREAMBLE AND OPERATIVE TEXT ON THE SUBCOMMITTEE AMENDMENT ARE CONSIDERED AS HAVING BEEN READ AND ARE OPEN TO AMENDMENT AT ANY POINT.
[The amendment appears in the appendix.]
The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from Nebraska, the chairman of the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific, Mr. Bereuter, for 5 minutes.
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Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, the Subcommittee approved an amendment in the nature of a substitute in order to facilitate this markup by the Full Committee today. The resolution offered by our colleague from California, Mr. Rohrabacher, relates to political, religious and economic freedom in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.
The resolution correctly notes that several provinces in Vietnam have experienced anticorruption protests in recent months, a phenomenon that is quite remarkable for Vietnam. I think the Committee should probably consider these protests to be a good sign, Mr. Chairman, for it is clear that a great many Vietnamese people have had enough of local corrupt bureaucrats siphoning off the wealth of the nation.
I am also told that the protests have been sufficient to force the national government to deal with some of these corrupt officials. It certainly would make it easier for U.S. businessmen to operate in Vietnam, for I have heard numerous horror stories, as I am sure many of us have, from U.S. business leaders about the corruption levels in that country.
Mr. Rohrabacher's resolution rightly reaffirms the U.S. support for political, religious and economic freedom in Vietnam and calls upon the government to permit free and fair elections where competing political parties are allowed to participate. These are basic principles that we can support. I ask my colleagues to support this resolution, and look forward to an opportunity for Mr. Rohrabacher to express his views as the prime sponsor of the legislation.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. Rohrabacher.
Mr. ROHRABACHER. In sympathy to my other Members of this Committee, I will submit this 5-minute statement for the record and simply state that this resolution puts us on the side of democracy and human rights and against corruption.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Rohrabacher appears in the appendix.]
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Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher.
Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. FOX. Very statesmanlike.
Mr. HAMILTON. I commend Mr. Bereuter and Mr. Rohrabacher. I endorse their statements, and I yield back the balance of my time.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Smith.
Mr. SMITH. I will be very brief and put the rest of my statement in the record, but I want to commend Mr. Rohrabacher for his fine resolution. And again, we want to make it very clear that there are a number of human rights problems that persist with the Government of Vietnam. We ought to make it very clear that we want to see those exit visas provided by the government, and they need to release the religious prisoners and human rights prisoners that they are currently holding. It is terrible, and this resolution advances the ball. Thank you.
Chairman GILMAN. Mr. Royce.
Mr. ROYCE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to commend my colleague for this very timely resolution.
Timing is important, and we have a new Vietnamese leadership, and that leadership has shown no commitment to reform at this point. This puts us on record in support of economic, political and religious freedom. I think it is important, and I want to support it and thank Chairman Bereuter for moving this in a timely fashion.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Royce.
I want to join in thanking Mr. Rohrabacher for introducing the resolution and urging the President to make it clear to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam that America is committed to democracy, to economic and religious freedom for the people of Vietnam.
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I support the resolution and call my colleagues to do so, and I intend to bring it to the floor expeditiously for passage.
Are there any other Members seeking recognition? If not, the question is on the Subcommittee amendment in the nature of a substitute, as amended. As many as are in favor of the amendment in the nature of a substitute, indicate in the usual manner.
As many as opposed, say no.
The amendment is agreed to. The gentleman from Nebraska is recognized to offer a motion.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Chairman be requested to seek consideration of this measure, as amended, on the Suspension Calendar.
Chairman GILMAN. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Nebraska. As many as are in favor of the motion, say aye.
As many as opposed, say no.
The ayes appear to have it. The ayes have it. The motion is agreed to. Further proceedings on this measure are postponed.
Chairman GILMAN. We now proceed to the final measure, H. Con. Res. 156, a measure relating to human rights in Afghanistan and expressing the need for a peaceful solution there.
This measure was considered in the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific on October 29th and reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute. The Chair lays the measure before the Committee.
The clerk will report the title of the resolution.
Ms. BLOOMER. House Concurrent Resolution 156, expressing concern for the continued deterioration of human rights in Afghanistan and emphasizing the need for a peaceful political settlement in that country.
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Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute recommended by the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific will be considered as original text for the purpose of amendment. The clerk will read the preamble and operative language of the Subcommittee amendment for amendment.
[The resolution appears in the appendix.]
Ms. BLOOMER. Whereas Congress recognizes that the legacy of civil conflict in Afghanistan——
Chairman GILMAN. Without objection, the preamble and operative text of the Subcommittee amendment is considered as having been read and open to amendment at any point.
[The amendment appears in the appendix.]
Chairman GILMAN. The Chair recognizes the distinguished gentleman from Nebraska, the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific, Mr. Bereuter, for 5 minutes.
Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. H. Con. Res. 156 comes to the Committee with the prime sponsorship of the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Maloney. It has a wide number of bipartisan cosponsors. It addresses the very serious human rights violations that are perpetrated upon the civilian populace in Afghanistan, particularly women and young girls.
You probably have all heard stories about the Taliban prohibiting female teachers and physicians from practicing their profession, and because of the Taliban's absolutist interpretation of Islamic law and the prohibitions on women being viewed by men, we have heard stories of women in need of medical attention being denied help from male doctors.
Mr. Chairman, we, again, move the amendment in the nature of a substitute to facilitate the action of the Committee here today. The essential thrust of these changes is to make it clear that while the Taliban's performance has been reprehensible, that there are many actors in Afghanistan with questionable track records as well. I urge adoption of H. Con. Res. 156.
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Chairman GILMAN. Thank you Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, I commend you and Chairman Bereuter for bringing it forward. I think it is very constructive and I support the resolution.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you. Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. Rohrabacher.
Mr. ROHRABACHER. I support this resolution, and I am very pleased that at last we are paying attention to Afghanistan.
Thank you.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you. And I want to thank the Chairman and Ranking Minority Member of the Asia and the Pacific Subcommittee for bringing this resolution before us. Especially, I want to applaud Ms. Maloney, the gentlelady from New York, for her excellent work in the proposal, and I know that Mr. Rohrabacher has had a great deal of interest and concern with regard to Afghanistan.
The deterioration of human rights in Afghanistan, especially its impact on women, is very distressing. Large areas of Afghanistan are now under the Taliban rule, the Taliban being run by men whose thinking is medieval. Unfortunately, the State Department has done little to end the fighting that has led to the current problems.
Two weeks ago Congressman Rohrabacher did what the State Department could not or cared not to do. He brought together in Istanbul almost all of the leaders of the different groups so that some sort of national reconciliation process could begin. Next week many of them will be here in Washington. I urge our colleagues to meet with them, to learn about the historic and productive meeting. I hope that we can help the process along even further. I urge my colleagues to support the resolution.
Any other Members seeking recognition?
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If not, the question is on the Subcommittee amendment in the nature of a substitute, as amended. As many as are in favor of the amendment in the nature of a substitute, signify in the usual manner.
As many as are opposed, say no.
The amendment is agreed to. The gentlemen from Nebraska is recognized to offer a motion.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate that Mr. Rohrabacher is the lead cosponsor of this legislation. I neglected to say that. I thank him for the initiative that you just mentioned and thank him for keeping Afghanistan constantly on our agenda.
I move that the Chairman be requested to seek consideration of this measure, as amended, on the Suspension Calendar.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Bereuter. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Nebraska. As many as are in favor of the motion, signify by saying aye.
As many as opposed, say no.
The ayes appear to have it. The ayes have it, and the motion is agreed to. Further proceedings on the measure are postponed.
I ask unanimous consent that Members' remarks on any measure under consideration today be received for the record for a period of 10 days.
If there is no objection, so moved.
Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman, earlier when we considered H. Con. Res. 152 with regard to Northern Ireland, it was not possible for me to be here because of a speaking engagement. I just wanted to signal to the Chairman that I opposed that measure basically because I think it is terribly unbalanced, and I will certainly oppose it on the floor of the House. I gather your intention is to put it on the Suspension Calendar and you have the motion that permits you to do that, but I did want to let you know that some of us at least will be in opposition to that.
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Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. Bereuter.
Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Payne was not here because of attending to official business, but I would say to the gentleman that there is considerable concern about the resolution on Germany and Scientology. This Member abstained because I thought we had inadequate information about it.
I wish that you had been here. You could not be. I understand that. But I would suggest to the gentleman that he may wish not to proceed with that to the House floor until we have had a chance for examination of all of the information about it. That will be the gentleman's decision whether or not he wants to weigh in or not.
Mr. Chairman, on a second subject, H. Con. Res. 139 was passed by this Committee and moved to the Suspension Calendar. It could not be moved. I would hope that Expo 2000 resolution could top the list of suspension suggestions going to the floor, if that is possible.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. I think we have already followed through on that request.
Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you.
Mr. PAYNE. Mr. Chairman.
Chairman GILMAN. Who is seeking recognition?
Mr. Payne.
Mr. PAYNE. First of all, as you know, it has been indicated why I was not here. I would like to indicate that I am in support of the Northern Ireland resolution; and second on the question of Scientology, as I have indicated over and over, this is a human rights issue.
I might ask the gentleman if he looked at the Country Report on Human Rights, and even previously we had a discussion here in the Committee on Scientology, and there is a State Department report. We had one of the State Department on human rights, I think it was Assistant Secretary Shattuck, discuss the situation, and so there has been a discussion on it. I am not sure whether the gentleman was here during those times.
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But I would like to say I certainly will take under advisement his comment. I will talk with my staff and decide what track I will take, but I did want to indicate that there has been discussion on the matter.
There were several meetings held here, as a matter of fact, one several weeks ago, when all Members were invited to attend; also where we had a discussion and many of the Members here attended it. So I would certainly take your comments under advisement, but would probably proceed forward with the legislation.
And I also would like to add in my condolences about Mr. Capps, Representative Capps, who was just such a unique person, almost out of place here with us, just a fantastic man, and it is sad about his premature passing. Thank you.
Chairman GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Payne. And without objection, the record will be kept open for any Members who wish to add their memorial tributes to Walter Capps.
If there is no further business, I thank our Members for being patient and being with us and the Committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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