SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
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24–373 PDF
2006
CONTENT PROTECTION IN THE DIGITAL AGE: THE BROADCAST FLAG, HIGH-DEFINITION RADIO, AND THE ANALOG HOLE
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON COURTS, THE INTERNET,
AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
NOVEMBER 3, 2005
Serial No. 109–80
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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., Wisconsin, Chairman
HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
LAMAR SMITH, Texas
ELTON GALLEGLY, California
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
WILLIAM L. JENKINS, Tennessee
CHRIS CANNON, Utah
SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama
BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
JOHN N. HOSTETTLER, Indiana
MARK GREEN, Wisconsin
RIC KELLER, Florida
DARRELL ISSA, California
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
MIKE PENCE, Indiana
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
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STEVE KING, Iowa
TOM FEENEY, Florida
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
RICK BOUCHER, Virginia
JERROLD NADLER, New York
ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina
ZOE LOFGREN, California
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
MAXINE WATERS, California
MARTIN T. MEEHAN, Massachusetts
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York
ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
LINDA T. SÁNCHEZ, California
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
PHILIP G. KIKO, General Counsel-Chief of Staff
PERRY H. APELBAUM, Minority Chief Counsel
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Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property
LAMAR SMITH, Texas, Chairman
HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois
ELTON GALLEGLY, California
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
WILLIAM L. JENKINS, Tennessee
SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama
BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
RIC KELLER, Florida
DARRELL ISSA, California
CHRIS CANNON, Utah
MIKE PENCE, Indiana
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
RICK BOUCHER, Virginia
ZOE LOFGREN, California
MAXINE WATERS, California
MARTIN T. MEEHAN, Massachusetts
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York
ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
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LINDA T. SÁNCHEZ, California
BLAINE MERRITT, Chief Counsel
DAVID WHITNEY, Counsel
JOE KEELEY, Counsel
RYAN VISCO, Counsel
SHANNA WINTERS, Minority Counsel
C O N T E N T S
NOVEMBER 3, 2005
OPENING STATEMENT
The Honorable Lamar Smith, a Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property
The Honorable Howard L. Berman, a Representative in Congress from the State of California, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property
WITNESSES
The Honorable Dan Glickman, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Motion Picture Association of America
Oral Testimony
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Prepared Statement
Mr. Mitch Bainwol, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Recording Industry Association of America
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
Ms. Gigi B. Sohn, President, Public Knowledge
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
Mr. Michael Petricone, Vice President of Government Affairs, Consumer Electronics Association
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
APPENDIX
Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
Statement of the Honorable Howard Berman, a Representative in Congres from the State of California, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property
Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan
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Statement of the Honorable Adam Schiff, a Representative in Congress from the State of California
Letter from Fred von Lohmann, Senior Staff Attorney for Intellectual Property, Electronic Frontier Foundation
Statement of Broadcast Music, Inc.
Letter from Thomas M. Bracken, Vice President, Worldwide Marketing and Communications, Thomson Services SBU to the Honorable Lamar Smith, a Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property
Statement of the National Association of Broadcasters
American Library Association v. Federal Communications Commission, 406 F.3d 689
Analog Hole Legislation Discussion Draft
Analog Hole Legislation Summary
Analog Hole Legislation Table W
Broadcast Flag Discussion Draft
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HD Radio Discussion Draft
CONTENT PROTECTION IN THE DIGITAL AGE: THE BROADCAST FLAG, HIGH-DEFINITION RADIO, AND THE ANALOG HOLE
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2005
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet,
and Intellectual Property,
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:49 p.m., in Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Lamar Smith (Chair of the Subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. SMITH. The Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property will come to order.
Let me make a couple of announcements at the outset. First of all, although maybe there is no need to say this, because we actually have a relatively good attendance already here, but there's also a bill on the House floor over which the Judiciary Committee has jurisdiction, and a lot of Members are over on the House floor. In fact, I just came from the House floor, and I'd say at least half the IP Subcommittee is still waiting to be heard on this particular piece of legislation. So that's where some folks are, but I do appreciate the attendance of the Members who are here already.
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The second is I am going to have to leave for about a half an hour or so after my opening statement. I don't want anybody to take personal offense that I am leaving so quickly but hope to be back in time for the question period. And in my absence, Congressman Jenkins will be chairing the IP Subcommittee.
I will recognize myself for an opening statement then recognize the Ranking Member.
Today, the Subcommittee turns its attention to the role of content protection in digital media. The days of analog content are dwindling. From televisions to music collections, content is increasingly digital from its original creation to consumer playback. This digital conversion has assured the consumer that they will consistently see and hear a high quality version of a song or movie.
However, creators and content owners have been concerned that the digital transition will result in higher levels of piracy. To reduce the amount of piracy, content owners have used a variety of content protection measures on DVDs and MP3 files. Although these measures do not stop or even hinder hard-core pirates, they do seem to keep basically honest people honest. The most popular content delivery mechanisms, free over the air radio and television broadcasts, are becoming digital by choice and by Government mandate. Content owners believe that this transition will result in more satisfied consumers but also that the transition will increase piracy unless new content protection measures are adopted.
Content owners have put forward these proposals. One, the broadcast flag to limit redistribution of over the air digital television signals; two, a high-definition radio proposal to limit redistribution of over the air digital radio signals; and three, the analog hole proposal, to address the conversion of analog signals into digital formats.
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Clearly, the broadcast flag is the most well-known of the three proposals. This Committee is interested in hearing from proponents and opponents of all three of these proposals, not only to understand the need for them but also the differences in support for them. There are valid issues on both sides of the content protection debate. There are legitimate piracy concerns just as there are legitimate consumer concerns. Not everyone is a pirate, and not everyone has a right to acquire content in any way they like.
To me, content owners deserve the right to market their creations and to profit from them. Consumers have the right to use content within the bounds of the law but not an unfettered right. We hope to accomplish several things in the hearing today: one, learn about the need for such proposals; two, learn about the support for such proposals; three, learn about the impact of the proposals; and finally, if possible, understand where common ground may exist.
By unanimous consent, all Members' opening statements will be made a part of the record, and the Gentleman from California, Mr. Berman, is recognized for his opening statement.
[Note: Image(s) not available in this format. See PDF version of this file.]
Mr. BERMAN. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing.
There have been many positive developments in the copyright context during the past year. The Family Entertainment Copyright Act was signed into law. Well, that's mostly positive, but to provide better tools to prevent unauthorized distribution of content, the Supreme Court in the Grokster decision held that those that facilitate copyright infringement will be held directly accountable for their actions, and in response to judicial and legislative action, testimony at our hearing confirms that universities are adopting antipiracy technologies and instituting file sharing education programs that are greatly reducing the amount of illegal file sharing that takes place on campuses.
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But even with these many advances, the fact that mass, indiscriminate distribution of unauthorized copies is still an option allows piracy to remain a potent force.
I'm not going to take the Subcommittee's time to go over the statistics on the balance of payments and for core copyright industries, how important it is to our economy, how many jobs it has, and the threat of piracy to copyright creators. What I do believe many fail to realize is that strong protection of intellectual property is also necessary to benefit the consumer. Without adequate safeguards for content, it is easier for those in the creative chain to fall prey to piracy, and this jeopardizes the authors' and creators' ability to continue engaging in additional and new creative endeavors and content creation. It just seems to me that what it's hard to penetrate into a lot of people's consciousness is very obviously true: with fewer original projects in the end, the consumer will have less choices.
Our goal is to provide consumers with a first rate, rich, abundant selection of music and movies in any format at any time and at any place. This kind of accessibility to music and movies, however, creates a tension for content owners, who though they want to widely distribute their works also need to protect the content of their works from unauthorized copying and distribution.
Content owners do need to rely on the development of new and inventive technologies for distribution in order to provide the consumer with superior selection and accessibility. We must, therefore, be careful to not allow consumer considerations or considerations thrown out in the name of consumers and technology inventors to simply trump any concerns for creators and vice versa. There must be an appropriate balance which fosters creativity of new expression, innovation of new products, and accessibility to creative works. However, with the seemingly daily advances in technology, the much needed equilibrium is off kilter, leaning away from creators.
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This hearing is much different than previous discussions of piracy. Many of the issues surrounding peer-to-peer file sharing involve clearly bad actors. Here, I believe we are trying to bring the good guys into the process. We all generally agree that creators must be adequately compensated for the value of their works. I suppose the question today is how? Truly adequate compensation would probably involve providing a full performance right for sound recordings. Truly adequate protection measures would also prevent abusive use of technology when redistributing copies in both the digital or analog realm.
The passage of time and design of new functionalities and devices has compelled us to reexamine the patchwork in the Copyright Act to determine whether some of the provisions need to be altered to address lack of suitable copy protection or the need for limitations on retransmission mechanisms. Ideally, content protection systems will be developed that are both secure for distribution but are not intrusive to the legitimate expectation of consumers.
However, as technologies become more sophisticated and gain more interactive functionalities, this balance may have to be recalibrated. We also need, in this Committee, to engage additional partners outside this Committee to help us.
The market is an exciting place right now. New technologies are emerging to help bring the consumer many additional options for how they receive their content. HD radio devices are being installed in cars. XM Satellite is a new service. Many television sets contain broadcast flag technology, and a number of players are currently in the market which can reconvert the analog signal to digital content.
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We must ensure that as each of these technologies is rolled out, they are complying with the spirit of the copyright law, which at its core demands rightful compensation and adequate protection for the creator. I look forward to hearing from this distinguished panel of witnesses, and I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. JENKINS (presiding). We have on our panel of witnesses today the Hon. Dan Glickman, who is Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Motion Picture Association of America; Mr. Mitch Bainwol, who is Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Recording Industry Association of America; Gigi Sohn, who is President of Public Knowledge; and Mr. Michael Petricone, who is Vice President of Government Affairs, Consumer Electronics Association, and he is here on behalf of CEA and the Home Recording Rights Coalition.
And we will hear from Mr. Glickman first.
TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE DAN GLICKMAN, CHAIRMAN AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MOTION PICTURE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA
Mr. GLICKMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I may be indulged a moment of nostalgia, I was on this Committee, as you know, for about 11 years. I sat in Mr. Issa's seat; I sat in Mr. Cannon's seat. I didn't probably fill those positions as greatly as they did. And I, of course, served with Mr. Berman for many years, and this is a terrific Committee. I'm looking at the pictures on the wall, and Mr. Hyde, Mr. Sensenbrenner, Mr. Rodino, and Mr. Brooks were all either my Chairman or Ranking Members during those years, so it is a great honor to be back here, back home.
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Mr. BERMAN. You weren't around for Manny Seller?
Mr. GLICKMAN. I look like I should have been. There is not much hair here. But no, I wasn't.
Let me just make a couple of comment. One is that as Mr. Berman indicated in his remarks, the content industries—music, movies, software, publishing and similar industries—are critically important to the future of America. They are one of the few industries that America still has an undisputed leadership role in the world, and they're important in terms of job protection as well, and they're an area where we have a balance of payments surplus. So underlying all of this is an important industry both for America as well as our leadership in the world.
Number two, in this transformation to the digital world that we are in, there are gaps, there are holes that need to be filled. Otherwise, they present an enormous opportunity for massive amounts of piracy. And I think almost everybody here agrees that there are holes to be filled, and we're here to try to fill, at least in my testimony, two of these holes.
The first one is the broadcast flag, which refers to regulations already adopted by the FCC that enables owners of high value content broadcast by digital TV stations to prevent the indiscriminate redistribution of that material over the Internet. The ability to control such redistribution of satellite and cable programming already exists through contractual agreements.
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There is a gaping hole when you come to broadcast over the air television. Legislation is needed to allow the FCC, which has already approved these regs, to implement them and place free, off-air broadcasters on a level playing field with cable and satellite distribution systems.
The second issue is the analog hole. That refers to the problem created by the conversion of digital material protected by digital rights management systems to an analog format, which most of our television sets in this country are right now, and then back to digital. The process of this conversion process is to strip away the digital rights management protections, leaving the content in the clear and vulnerable to illicit reproduction and redistribution.
Some consumer devices are being specifically designed to take advice of this analog hole, which impedes our ability to offer legitimate viewing choices and delays the digital transition. Legislation is needed to require that devices which convert analog material to a digital format recognize and respond to digital rights management information.
The analog hole is like a car washer. But instead of washing off the dirt, it washes off all the content protections and then makes it vulnerable to massive infringement. And this is not an idle threat. Devices that can easily exploit the analog hole are already in the marketplace. So these are two of the items that I am talking about. Mr. Bainwol, of course, will have an additional item to talk about.
The third item I want to mention is I think Congress needs to play a leadership role, and private industry will work together with the Congress to try to come up with some help in this area. The Government and the Congress has gotten involved in areas such as closed captioning, the V-chip, serial copy management, Macrovision, a whole variety of things where the standards were necessary to be set so that the marketplace could then work effectively. And I think that coming here and asking for Congressional help and leadership is something that has been done many, many times before, not to take advantage of the marketplace but to provide some clear rules.
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We do believe that the marketplace will ultimately determine the success of all of our products, but we want a free marketplace, not a black marketplace. And what's happening with these unprotected areas is that we cannot participate fully in giving the consumers the access and the choices nor the work product that they need because a whole lot of the ability to do so is impeded by this gaping hole of unprotected content. So as we go into the digital era, we want to be able to provide that protection, which we think leads to common sense rules of the road, and that's where we want to look for you in that regard.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, we are in a period of amazing and rapid change, and I want to state that I believe our industry is a technological innovator, and we're not only not scared of change; we're leading the effort. We led the effort to create the DVD world, which has changed the way consumers watch movies and television. The IPod, MP3, all sorts of items that are out there have been the results of ours and related industries.
And it's not just delivery systems. Tomorrow, a movie opens called Chicken Little. Some of you or your kids or grandkids or maybe you personally will want to go see this movie, using a new form of digital content to create new three-dimensional images on the movie screen. I think of movies like Polar Express or Star Wars, where digital technology was created by our industry to give consumers a whole array of viewing entertainment and choices that they did not have before. And whatever we've done in the past, the future is just extraordinarily open to even much greater changes and improvements in what consumers will see.
So our purpose in coming here is to say to you that we want to work together with you; we want to work together with our colleagues here at this table to come up with ways to fill this gap so that the digital content is adequately protected so that we can continue to offer these extraordinary opportunities for the American people to enjoy movies, television, movies, and other things, and thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
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[The prepared statement of Mr. Glickman follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE DAN GLICKMAN
Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Berman, members of the Subcommittee:
On behalf of the member companies of the Motion Picture Association of America, I thank you for the opportunity to talk to you about the future of an important American industry as it transitions into the digital age.
As a former member of the Judiciary Committee, I know what it is like to be on your side of the table. As members of this esteemed Committee, you all have to make important judgments about what the laws of the land should be. And sometimes, you have to make tough calls.
Chairman Smith, you have called this hearing at a critical time for our industry, but also at a critical time for this nation.
Protecting intellectual property will become a resounding theme for our economy in the decades to come. This nation will prosper or it will fail in large part by how we protect our nation's greatest assets . . . the skill, ingenuity and creativity of our people.
The American film industry, like all of the creative industries, combines capital and talent to produce intellectual property. It is not easy to create a movie. It requires lots of money, lots of skilled workers, and lots of hard work. In fact, four out of ten movies don't make back their investment. So the movie industry is fraught with risk. Despite these hurdles, the American film industry is the most successful in the world. It is one of our most important exports. It is one of our best job creators.
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The member companies of the MPAA are excited about the future. They are working hard to make a successful transition to the digital world. They want people around the globe to see their product in a no-hassle, convenient and low cost way.
But while the industry embraces the many opportunities of the future, it also faces the distressing reality of piracy.
The pilfering of our films costs our industry approximately $3.5 billion dollars a year in hard goods piracy (DVD, VCD) alone. On the Internet front, it has been estimated that as much as two-thirds of Internet bandwidth in this country is consumed by peer-to-peer traffic, with much of that volume attributable to movie theft.
And it is only getting worse. Pirating DVD's is more lucrative than selling heroin or crack cocaine for many criminal gangs. New digital technology enables criminals to download movies, burn them onto DVD discs, and then sell them on the streets or through a global storefront on the Internet with amazing speed.
The MPAA is doing its part to fight back. Using the legal tools that in many cases this Subcommittee fashioned, we work very effectively with the U.S. Department of Justice, the FBI, Customs and local law enforcement to crack down on these gangs. We also are providing more and more legal alternatives
for on-line movies. We are working to help our schools teach kids that stealing on the Internet is as wrong as stealing from a store. We are investing in the future to find cutting-edge technologies that will get movies to consumers while protecting copyrights. And we are working with our colleagues in the consumer electronics, computer and online service provider industries on the development and implementation of digital rights management (''DRM'') technologies to offer consumers a wider array of choices for enjoying the content we produce.
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But commercial piracy is not the only challenge we face in the new digital environment. We also must develop secure delivery systems so we can offer consumers the viewing options they desire while maintaining a sound fiscal base to sustain our industry. We are embracing DRM technologies so that we can offer consumers more choices at a greater variety of price points: one consumer may want to purchase a permanent copy of a movie while another may want to watch it only once—and at a lower price. To sustain the viability of this array of different offers, however, we must be able to maintain the distinction among them. Thus, we need to provide technical safeguards to discourage, for example, the copying of a ''view once'' option that has been selected by a consumer. In using the phrase ''technical safeguards'' I do not mean to imply that we seek absolute protection against unauthorized use of our movies. We understand that committed pirates will break any security measures we can devise and these pirates will have to be dealt with by way of criminal and civil legal remedies.
However, we can, and must, implement basic technological measures to delineate for consumers the differences among our various content offerings and to discourage what I call ''casual misuse'' of our intellectual property. At the end of the day, the economic impact of a thousand otherwise law abiding citizens making an extra copy of a movie they purchased and ''sharing'' it with a friend has the same impact as a single commercial pirate selling a thousand copies of a movie on a street corner.
In many cases, the DVD being a prime example, we have worked with the technology companies to develop and implement secure delivery systems supported by technical measures and voluntary contractual relationships. However, there are some areas where private sector solutions alone will not work. That's where we need your help.
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First, you can help us plug the analog hole.
What is the analog hole?
Let me try to explain it as simply as I can.
While film content is increasingly arriving into American homes in protected digital form, such content must be converted into an analog format to be viewed on the overwhelming majority of television sets in U.S. households, which can only process and display an analog signal. When digital content protected by digital rights management technology is converted to analog form for viewing on existing analog television equipment, the content is stripped of all its protections. This analog content can then be redigitized ''in the clear,'' without any protections whatsoever. This redigitized and completely unprotected content can then be efficiently compressed, copied and redistributed without degradation. It can also readily be uploaded to the Internet for unauthorized copying and redistribution. Like a black hole, the analog hole sucks in all content protections, leading to two problems. First, it eliminates the ''lines'' or boundaries among the different viewing opportunities we are trying to bring to consumers and makes it difficult to sustain the choices for consumers that digital rights management technologies otherwise help facilitate. Second, it creates a significant loophole for our industry in the fight against piracy.
This is not an idle concern. Already, several consumer electronics devices are being conceived and brought to market purely for the reason of exploiting the analog hole. Movie studios are actively engaged in developing and offering innovative new business models to give consumers greater flexibility and more choices for how and where they access and enjoy movies and television shows. All of these models depend, however, upon a secure environment which protects this high-value content from rampant theft and redistribution. Devices that permit exploitation of the analog hole, whether by design or otherwise, undercut this framework and consequently limit the viewing choices that can be made available to consumers.
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Because of the ease with which it can be exploited, the analog hole creates a gaping hole in digital rights management protections, allowing high value content to be copied and re-transmitted without limit. Of particular significance is the fact that exploitation of the analog hole requires no act of circumvention nor any unauthorized circumvention devices prohibited by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA.) Instead, the analog hole can be exploited solely through the use of general purpose home equipment. In some cases such equipment is specifically designed to permit people to take advantage of the analog hole to defeat digital rights management measures. In other cases, analog inputs and outputs serve a legitimate purpose and the analog hole is a byproduct. Closing the analog hole would place these analog devices on an equal footing with all-digital devices by maintaining the integrity of digital rights management measures.
Legislation will be required to implement an analog hole solution to create a level playing field for device manufacturers. Legislation will help ensure that good actors are not disadvantaged by companies who do not play by the rules. Such legislation should be narrowly focused and targeted.
The MPAA and its member companies have worked closely with representatives from the computer and consumer electronics industries to reach consensus on a technological solution for the analog hole. These talks have been productive and have shown positive movement. Virtually every major consumer electronics and information technology company as well as a number of self styled ''consumer'' groups, including the Electronic Frontier Foundation, participated in an Analog Conversion Working Group where a broad consensus was reached on the need to address the analog hole problem and on the attributes a solution should have.
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The discussion draft legislation released by the Subcommittee is consistent with that consensus. It provides for a robust analog rights signaling mechanism that does not interfere with a consumer's ability to fully enjoy the content they receive. Known as ''CGMS-A plus Veil,'' Analog Copy Generation Management System (CGMS-A) coupled with the Veil Technologies Rights Assertion Mark provides a practical degree of protection from unauthorized reproduction and redistribution while not diminishing a consumer's viewing experience.
Second, Congress can help protect content by giving the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) authority to implement the broadcast flag regulations which it adopted over two years ago and that were to become effective last July. The marketplace has already anticipated that the broadcast flag will be required and many manufacturers of digital television devices are now producing equipment in compliance with the FCC broadcast flag regulations. Moreover, consumer equipment that renders high value cable and satellite programming will be required to prevent redistribution whether or not the FCC rules are reinstated. It is important to note that there has been no discernable consumer resistance to these broadcast flag compliant devices and no surge of consumer complaints.
Why has most everyone, device manufacturers and consumers alike, accepted the broadcast flag? Because it makes eminent good sense.
The broadcast flag protects free, over-the-air digital television programming from unauthorized redistribution over the Internet. It is the product of several years of negotiations among broadcasters, electronics manufacturers, computer technology and video content companies.
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The broadcast flag rule is targeted and narrowly focused on a single problem. The only activity affected by the broadcast flag is the indiscriminate redistribution of digital broadcast television content over the Internet. As long as one is not trying to redistribute flagged content over the Internet, a typical consumer will not know the broadcast flag exists. Under the rule adopted by the FCC, consumers are free to continue to time-shift over-the-air television. In fact, because the rule is targeted narrowly at unauthorized redistribution, and not consumer copying, it allows an unlimited number of copies to be made—even infringing ones—provided those copies are protected against further distribution over the Internet. Even Internet retransmission is not barred outright under the rule, provided it can be done in a way that protects against indiscriminate redistribution. Picture and sound quality are also unaffected.
The protection provided by the broadcast flag will play an important role in successful transition to digital television. If program producers cannot be assured that programming licensed to broadcast television is protected as securely as programming licensed to cable and other subscription based outlets, these producers will inevitably move their programming over to such channels where protections are available through contractual arrangements. The broadcast flag is essential to a successful digital television transition and preservation of free, over-the-air digital television.
It is essential that Congress act quickly to enact narrowly crafted legislation to reinstate the FCC's Broadcast Flag ruling, and such legislation should become effective immediately. As stated above, broadcast flag compliant equipment is already being produced and is in the marketplace. Delay will materially worsen the legacy equipment problem and is completely unnecessary.
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I want to emphasize that both the Analog Hole and the Broadcast Flag have been the subject of intense scrutiny by technology and content communities, as well as other interested parties, in open forums consuming literally thousands of man-hours of discussion. It is a documented fact that there is broad consensus that these are issues that need to be addressed. There is also broad consensus on the nature of the solutions that should be considered. I believe the discussion draft legislation released earlier this week is fully consistent with that consensus and should be swiftly enacted.
Let me add one cautionary note. While we strongly support legislation that will plug the analog hole and implement the broadcast flag, we cannot support legislation that will do that at the expense of the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA. I would submit that efforts to include HR 1201, which would, as a practical matter, repeal Section 1201 of the DMCA, would do much more harm than good. It has been suggested by members of another committee that attaching HR 1201 to a broadcast flag would make a good compromise. In my view, that type of legislation would simply compromise efforts to fight piracy and hurt an important American industry.
Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Berman, members of the Committee, I appreciate this opportunity to discuss these matters of concern to our industry and I look forward to answering any questions you may have regarding what I have just discussed.
Mr. JENKINS. Thank you, Mr. Glickman.
Mr. Bainwol.
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TESTIMONY OF MITCH BAINWOL, CHAIRMAN AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, RECORDING INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA
Mr. BAINWOL. I'd like to thank the Subcommittee for this opportunity to testify. I come before you today as the CEO of the RIAA, but my testimony today reflects the breadth of the music community.
Let me take a step back and provide some context. The sale of recorded music hit a high in 1999 before a variety of factors, chiefly, file sharing and unauthorized burning, triggered a massive slide. A recent study by Stan Liebowitz, a Texas economist, indicates that in the absence of file sharing, our revenues would have continued growing robustly. So our concern about digital theft isn't academic, and it's not paranoia. It's grounded in the painful experience of the last 6 years.
The Supreme Court's Grokster decision unanimously certainly helped, but we need to go further. That decision is catalyzing a transformation among the major P2P players to go straight and legal or to go straight into the dustbin of history. But the Grokster ruling is only part of the answer. In order for us to dig out of the hole and grow again, we need policies to protect the integrity of the digital marketplace.
And a key part of that is the emergence of digital radio across platforms. The laws for radio presumed a passive listening experience and did not anticipate radio services becoming download or on demand subscription services, but that's what's happening.
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In 2003, there were virtually no digital revenues. But now, we're beginning to see significant revenue streams arise from download services like ITunes and Wal-Mart, from rental services like Rhapsody, Napster, and Yahoo, and from mobile music offerings, all of which will amount to billions of dollars by the end of this decade, that is, unless the emerging services, these services, are cannibalized by functionality that substitutes, substitutes for download sales and rentals without paying creators equivalently.
Let me be clear: we are for technology; we are for cool devices; we're for new business models and new functionality, but we are not for clever ways to bypass fair compensation for creators. We are not for the exploitation of loopholes to rig the competitive landscape against these new business models. Radio has been a passive listening experience. Sure, people taped off the radio; they did it independently; they did it manually. The quality stunk. If you wanted a good copy, you had to go buy one. The radio service didn't provide the tool to automatically capture perfect quality songs and subsequently move them easily to play on your portable device on demand whenever and wherever you chose, until now.
With the emerging transformation of digital radio over the air, on satellite, and on the Internet, we're seeing new devices that go way beyond time shifting, beyond manual recording, and beyond current consumer expectations. These devices effectively provide ownership, and it sounds attractive, and it is, unless you're a creator.
Here's what we're not asking you to do: don't stop or delay the rollout of digital over-the-air services. Don't stop consumers from recording off the radio. Don't stop time shifting, and don't stop the invention of new recording features that allow a consumer to hit a record button when they hear a song they like.
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So what are we asking you to do? First, we urge this Committee to update section 114 to ensure parity for digital radio across all platforms: satellite, cable, and Internet. The law did not contemplate convergence. It creates arbitrary advantages between platforms, and it leaves creators holding the bag.
Second, because over-the-air radio is not covered by 114, we ask that Congress grant authority to the FCC to also protect over-the-air digital radio. I would like to submit a resolution from a broad music coalition calling on Congress to do just that. Both of these necessary steps are contained in the discussion draft that was circulated by your staff. We urge you to introduce and pass legislation that accomplishes these goals.
I would like to mention one other very significant point in closing: many of our friends in the CE community, the technology and broadcast communities, have stressed the need for us to come together for a solution before we come to you, the Congress. But we have tried, and we continue to try. But these efforts have failed. The market, the market does not work. Remember, unlike the motion picture studios, we have a market failure, because we have no performance right, as Mr. Berman pointed out, for over-the-air radio, and we are subject to compulsory license over the other platforms.
Motion picture studios and broadcasters on the video side could hold back programming until they were comfortable with the content protection. We don't have that luxury. The digital marketplace offers enormous promise for fans, device manufacturers, broadcasters of all stripes, and creators. With your help, we can realize that promise. We are ready to go to work to get that job done quickly so devices get to market, but we want to make sure that creators get the compensation they deserve, that we deserve, at a time when we are struggling to create new art.
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Thank you again for this opportunity to testify.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Bainwol follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF MITCH BAINWOL
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Mr. JENKINS. Thank you, Mr. Bainwol.
Ms. Sohn.
TESTIMONY OF GIGI B. SOHN, PRESIDENT, PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE
Ms. SOHN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Berman, and the Members of the Subcommittee for inviting me to testify today. For those of you who don't know what Public Knowledge is, we are a nonprofit public organization that seeks to represent the public in debates over copyright law and communications policy.
We are living in a time of great technological innovation and artistic abundance, and consumers, your constituents, are the beneficiaries. Consumers have never had so much choice, so much flexibility, and so much opportunity to become creators themselves. IPods and other MP3 players provide a fun and convenient way to listen to music, books, and pod casts. TiVO, ITV and Slingbox allow you to watch your favorite TV shows when and where you want. New services like satellite digital radio and digital broadcast radio are giving consumers more opportunities to hear the music they love and the news and information they desire.
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As the DTV transition kicks into high gear, we will be able to choose from a multiplicity of program streams of high definition news, sports, and entertainment. The opportunities for the content industry to profit from these new digital services are increasing every day. Sales of DVDs are generating enormous revenues. ITunes just announced in just a few short weeks, it has sold 1 million programs for use on its new video IPod. And Mr. Bainwol said yesterday in an interview that he estimates that legitimate online song purchases could supplant CD retail losses by 2007.
As the content industry has ramped up its online delivery of content, it has been testing a variety of protection measures that provide both security for the industry and flexibility for consumers. Despite all this exciting activity, however, we are here today to discuss three draft bills that could bring this technological and artistic renaissance to a grinding halt.
The first bill would reinstate the FCC's vacated broadcast flag rule. This would give the agency unprecedented control over technological design. It would make them the arbiter of the rights of content owners and the public under copyright law. Ask yourselves: is it good policy to turn the Federal Communications Commission into the Federal Computer Commission or the Federal Copyright Commission? Should the FCC decide which technologies will succeed in the marketplace and which will fail?
The flag scheme would prohibit lawful uses of content, not just indiscriminate redistribution, including use of broadcast TV excerpts online and distance learning; for example, the Parents' Television Council, a TV watchdog, makes available clips of its favorite and least favorite TV shows on its Website. The flag scheme would prevent this way of educating parents about the shows their children watch. Nor could Members of Congress email broadcast TV news appearances to their home offices. Moreover, the flag scheme will cause great consumer inconvenience, confusion, and cost, because different approved technologies are not compatible with each other.
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We have similar concerns about the second draft bill, which would place the FCC in the position of mandating content protection for digital satellite and broadcast radio. This legislation would permit the FCC to extinguish the long-protected consumer right to record radio transmissions for personal use. Furthermore, because the draft bill would impose limits on digital broadcast radio technology that, unlike digital TV, consumers need not adopt, those limits may well kill this fledgling technology. Why would consumers buy an expensive new digital broadcast radio receiver when it would have less functionality than their analog receiver?
Lastly, we must oppose the sweeping draft proposal to close the analog hole. Be assured there is no industry or other consensus on the CGMS-A plus veil technology mandated in the bill. Their prohibitions would require redesign of a whole range of currently legal consumer devices. Importantly, it would also restrict lawful uses of analog content. This is critical, because the content industry itself has touted the analog hole as a safety valve for making fair use of digital media products where the DMCA has rendered illegal the circumvention of technological locks.
Should Congress close that hole without amending the DMCA to protect fair use, consumers' rights to access digital copyrighted works would be eroded even further. For this reason, if Congress should move forward with any of these proposals, they must be considered in conjunction with H.R. 1201, which seeks to preserve consumers' rights under the DMCA.
Now, just because Public Knowledge opposes the three draft bills does not mean we oppose all content protection efforts. There are far better alternatives to the heavy-handed technology mandates proposed today. They include a multipronged approach of consumer education, enforcement of copyright laws, and use of technological tools and new business models developed in the marketplace. The recent Grokster decision and the passage of the Family Entertainment and Copyright Act, spearheaded by Mr. Smith, are just two of the several new tools that the content industry has at its disposal to protect content.
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Members of the Subcommittee, these proposals are controversial and do not reflect consensus. I am confident that after careful deliberation and with input from the public, you will conclude that the marketplace, not the Government, is the best arbiter of what technologies succeed or fail and that Congress, and not the FCC, is the correct arbiter of the balance between content protection and consumer rights.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Sohn follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF GIGI B. SOHN
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Mr. JENKINS. Thank you, ma'am.
Mr. Petricone.
TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL PETRICONE, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, CONSUMER ELECTRONICS ASSOCIATION
Mr. PETRICONE. Good afternoon. On behalf of the Consumer Electronics Association and the Home Recording Rights Coalition, I appreciate the opportunity to appear today.
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Each proposal on today's agenda addresses unrelated issues, and each carries different concerns for our industry. Although we have worked constructively with the content industry on past legislation, the proposals before you reflect no prior effort to achieve consensus. Indeed, I read two of these bills for the first time when I checked my email during halftime of Monday night's football game. I received the third bill on Tuesday morning.
First, the Broadcast Flag Authorization Act: this language is close to a reinstatement of what the FCC did in its order. We are concerned that it grants discretion to the FCC to change everything in the future. Also, we believe it is deficient in not addressing ways in which the flag could be misused. We urge the Committee to include narrow exceptions for local news and broadcast public affairs programming and allow schools and libraries to use broadcast excerpts for distance learning.
If Congress is going to provide more protection to copyright holders, it should also safeguard the rights of consumers to enjoy works that they lawfully acquire. That is why should Congress move forward with any proposals discussed today, H.R. 1201 should be part of the package.
Next, the Analog Content Protection Act: this draft is immensely broad, complicated, and confusing. After 48 hours, experts in our industry are still unsure of which products are covered and what key provisions mean. What is clear is that this bill would impose a massive Government design mandate on every product capable of digitizing analog video signals, not just PCs and televisions but those found on airplanes, automobiles, medical devices, and technical equipment.
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A key concern is that one of the required copy protection technologies is largely unknown as to its cost, operation, and licensing status. In addition, all key decisions will be left up to the Patent and Trademark Office. With due respect, it is unclear how the PTO could make these decisions or who would exercise oversight over its judgments.
Regrettably, the analog hole bill is an incomprehensible and impractical proposal which the MPAA did not share with us, which I doubt not even Mr. Glickman can fully explain but which he would like you to adopt. We urge you to reject this half-baked proposal.
I say regrettably, because the fact is that the CE industry has long been prepared to address the analog hole issue. It has worked with MPAA members toward consensus solutions. But without consensus from all affected industries in an open and fair process, we cannot support this legislation.
Finally, the HD content protection act: let me start by expressing my disappointment that Mr. Bainwol would characterize consumers of radio as pirates. We cannot understand how he can say that ordinary consumers sitting in the privacy of their homes can use new radios to, quote, boldly engage in piracy with little fear of detection, unquote.
As Mr. Bainwol is well aware, recording radio programs for later enjoyment is a legitimate fair use activity that Americans have engaged in for decades. For this reason, the proposal to lock down free over-the-air radio is especially pernicious. Unlike the video flag, this proposal is aimed at stopping private, noncommercial recording of lawfully acquired content. The only apparent way to accomplish this is through encryption.
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Please understand that the rollout of terrestrial digital radio is well underway. Over 500 stations are broadcasting digitally. Over 25,000 radios will be on the market by year end with tens if not hundreds of thousands to follow in 2006. Since no encryption system currently exists, an encryption requirement would render both the transmission infrastructure and the initial radios obsolete, stopping the rollout of this exciting technology in its tracks.
The satellite radio provision is equally damaging. This bill would destroy the utility of new consumer products that, like the VCR or the TiVO, will enhance Americans' lives and broaden the market for entertainment programming. A TiVO customer can disaggregate recordings. Why can't consumers wishing to record radio use similar technology?
As you may know, XM and Sirius have announced new handheld devices that will allow their subscribers to enjoy music when they don't have access to a satellite signal, such as while at work or on an airplane. These products will be fully compliant with the Audio Home Recording Act, on which royalties will be paid to the music industry, and satellite companies will continue to pay additional millions in performance royalties. But that is apparently not enough for the RIAA, which would like to change section 114 to get even more money and limit the functionality of these products so that consumers will have little interest in them.
In essence, the RIAA is trying to use this bill to leverage the satellite radio industry on the eve of negotiations for a new performance royalty, and without saying so, RIAA is trying to gut the Audio Home Recording Act written by this Subcommittee. As we have long feared, having been emboldened by a judicial victory against real pirates, the music industry now sets its sights on ordinary consumers.
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I respectfully urge you to reject the RIAA's efforts to vilify consumers and cajole the Subcommittee into repealing basic consumer rights established by the Audio Home Recording Act. In short, we see no justification to undo the provisions of the AHRA and the DMCA that were specifically enacted by Congress to address digital and satellite radio services. There is no reason for Congress to give further consideration to the third leg of this legislation.
And as we consider these bills, please do not ignore the larger issue of U.S. competitiveness. While other countries are developing their technology industries to compete with America, we face a content industry campaign to suppress new technologies on arbitrary grounds. This is a trend that ought not to be considered.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to appear today. We have worked collegially with the content industry when they have been willing to do so. We look forward to working with you and your staff on the important issues that have been raised today.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Petricone follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF MICHAEL PETRICONE
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Mr. JENKINS. Thank you, sir.
The Chair at this time will pass to the Ranking Member, the Gentleman from California, Mr. Berman, for questions.
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Mr. BERMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Petricone, your members led in forming the broadcast flag working group, so there, I take it you have a relative comfort in that flag technology. Would you favor a similar technology in the HD radio context?
Mr. PETRICONE. Two things: first of all, our members, we are a large organization. We represent over 2,000 companies. Our members had differing views on the broadcast flag. As a result, we took no position before the FCC. As far as addressing digital radio, I can't give you an association position on that right now, but I can tell you that that would be much less intrusive to consumers than, for example, an encryption proposal that would require encryption at the source.
Mr. BERMAN. To the extent you're thinking that a sort of voluntary negotiations in this area would be better than that proposal, what incentives do your Members have to sit at the table, given that the RIAA has no performance right and therefore no leverage? My thought is that you would not support us trying to prevent the rollout of new technologies during the time that you were trying to reach a deal on content protection; am I wrong about that?
Mr. PETRICONE. The fact is there has been no overture by the RIAA to discuss, you know, anything of that sort with us. As a matter of fact, you know, the FCC has been considering the digital radio standard for a number of years. It was an open public standards proceeding, and, you know, at no time did the RIAA participate, as they easily could have, and raise the necessity for these issues. As you said, you know, the video broadcast flag was the result of a long, multi-industry process with consensus among the stakeholders. And there has been no similar process on the digital radio side.
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Mr. BERMAN. Ms. Sohn, you cite in your testimony the ability to use digital rights management tools as a reason not to support legislation to close the analog hole. But over in the Commerce Committee, you're supporting legislation that would legalize the manufacture and distribution of tools to defeat those very technologies. Isn't the entire point of the analog hole proposal that the fact that these digital rights management technologies are rendered completely ineffective when DRM-protected content is converted to analog for viewing on analog equipment? How is the existence of DRM an argument that nothing should be done on the analog hole?
Ms. SOHN. Well, I think I need to clarify that. H.R. 1201 does not permit the circumvention of DRM for unlawful uses. It only permits it for lawful uses. We do not support infringing activity. We only support the circumvention for lawful uses.
Mr. BERMAN. Well, I mean, that's your interpretation of 1201. I mean, sometimes, when I hear you and Public Knowledge and others who take the same position advocate, it is in order to protect legitimate copying, fair use activities, you create your own hole, digital or analog, to allow mass, indiscriminate redistribution of digital content.
Ms. SOHN. Well, I believe that conduct should be punished through a multipronged approach, including strong enforcement of copyright laws. And Public Knowledge has been almost alone——
Mr. BERMAN. Right now, the law has a fair use defense, and there's a copyright law. Why do you need a new law?
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Ms. SOHN. Well, because if you circumvent a technological lock for the purpose of making fair use, you're a criminal. And certainly, if you plug up the analog hole——
Mr. BERMAN. My understanding of the DMCA is that it makes it quite clear that it doesn't seek to change fair use law.
Ms. SOHN. Well, that's not its effect, unfortunately, and there have been several documented cases where somebody broke a technological lock so they could play a DVD that was tethered to a particular machine on another machine, and that was something that was found to be criminal under the DMCA.
Mr. BERMAN. Well, 1201 has a provision which says it shall not be a violation of the Copyright Act to manufacturer or distribute a hardware or software product capable of substantial noninfringing uses, not limited to substantial noninfringing uses, not only substantial noninfringing uses but simply capable of. So in other words, it's okay to do this because you're going to protect some fair use, and the fact that the result of utilizing this technology is a mass, indiscriminate redistribution of copyrighted material is sort of beside the point.
Ms. SOHN. It's not beside the point. What my organization really has a problem with and why we brought the case challenging the FCC's broadcast flag rules is that it's a one-size-fits-all Government technology mandate. We do not oppose digital rights management technologies that come up in the marketplace. And there are lots of those technologies that are working right now. I mean, ITunes fair play obviously is the best example, but Movie Flix and Cinema Now, I mean, they're all over the place.
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Mr. BERMAN. I realize my time is up, Mr. Chairman, but just to say that as I understand the court decision, it did not conclude that the broadcast flag rule was arbitrary and capricious or anything else. It simply said without a legislative statement, the FCC didn't have the authority to promulgate that rule.
Ms. SOHN. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. BERMAN. So that court decision did not reach your conclusion on this issue.
Ms. SOHN. Absolutely. It just decided on jurisdictional grounds, but I would urge that it would be very, very bad policy to put the FCC in the position of dictating technological design and essentially deciding what the copyright laws mean for the consumer.
Mr. BERMAN. What if they just dictated technological standards, and any technology that met those standards would be okay.
Ms. SOHN. That seems to me to be the exact same thing. I don't see the difference.
Mr. BERMAN. Oh, it's not mandating a particular technology.
Ms. SOHN. Well, but isn't that what the broadcast flag is? That's exactly what it is.
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Mr. BERMAN. And I ask you what if it took that approach?
Ms. SOHN. I would have to see exactly what the proposal is. I really can't comment on it.
Mr. JENKINS. The gentleman from California, Mr. Issa.
Mr. ISSA. Following up on that line of questioning, the FCC's job is to set standards, isn't it, basically, how we broadcast, where we broadcast, compatibility between the transmission and receivers? If not for the FCC, wouldn't we have both PAL and NTSC operating, you know, indiscriminately, each broadcaster deciding which TV type he wanted to lead to?
So I really have to ask, isn't it a core responsibility of the FCC to set standards for technology that then foster the real use of the airwaves, which, of course, is both for entertainment and for information and for public information in times of distress, such as a hurricane, the deliverance of information? Isn't all of that consistent with the FCC's rule, and I would take it that you would all agree to that, wouldn't you? Can I find any disagreement here? Good.
Ms. SOHN. Well, sir, certainly they have——
Mr. ISSA. I was pausing for that moment.
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Ms. SOHN. They certainly have the right to set standards for the actual transmissions, okay? They have the authority to regulate, you know, communication over wire and radio. And what the court found was that when it comes to, you know, dictating technological design after the transmission is captured, that was far more sweeping and far more far-reaching than the FCC had ever done before. So you're talking about regulating the standard of the transmission. They've always had the right to do that.
Mr. ISSA. Mr. Petricone, the companies you represent in fact make these receivers. I presume that the manufacturers of Sirius and XM Radio that are now downloading, storing, they're both making storage devices off of digital transmissions so that you can have—XM to Go, of course, is the better known of the two brands from the standpoint of storage. Isn't that critical that if they're going to store that that, in fact, be protected?
Mr. PETRICONE. The devices that you're referring to, first of all, they comply with the Audio Home Recording Act, and second of all, my understanding is that there is no opportunity, there is no way to move a digital copy of the material off the device. And if I can go back to your previous question, you know, I think I share your view of the critical role of the FCC. But we strongly prefer that standards enacted by the FCC arise from open, fair industry consensus processes, you know, that were properly vetted and developed by industry and led by the private sector. You know, again, the broadcast flag is certainly an example of that, as is, for example, the DTV standard.
Mr. ISSA. Well, following up on that, at the present time, for audio, there seems to be a challenge between—I mean, NAB doesn't seem, on either standard, NAB is reluctant to do broadcast flag, and they're not represented at the table here.
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But ultimately, wouldn't you all say that a scheme, standard to protect illicit use of copyrighted material, even when broadcast, and when I say illicit, I'm saying outside of existing fair use statutes, including the Betamax case, isn't in fact that critical to the growth of digital over analog? Your company—the companies you represent manufacture those very new sets. They're moving toward digital. Isn't the success of digital in fact a higher quality product while maintaining the status quo under the laws?
Mr. PETRICONE. Right, but I think our other concern is a scheme that would, in fact, make the new digital product less functional than the old analog product that would, of course, mitigate in the opposite direction.
Mr. ISSA. No, I appreciate it.
Mr. Glickman, maybe flipping to the other side of the same coin, isn't the availability of content for digital broadcast dependent on—and I'll say it in anticipation of where we want this to end up, maintaining the status quo under Sony Betamax, that although there is a fair use established by the Supreme Court and I think kept and held by us that in fact, you do not want to have that taken to essentially original master quality suddenly available for rebroadcast?
Mr. GLICKMAN. That is correct, as modified by the Grokster decision, which I think has made, you know, some revisions to the Sony Betamax decision. But let me go back to your——
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Mr. ISSA. I would say it didn't, because certainly, I have Sony videotape recorders, and I'm very comfortable that their marketing plan did not depend on stealing anything from anyone.
Mr. GLICKMAN. That is correct. You are correct. But it obviously created some additional standards on how you use——
Mr. ISSA. Grokster, to all of us on the dais, including your old seatmates here, very much has told us where the other side of the same standard now is.
Mr. GLICKMAN. If I may just respond two things: number one is if you look back at the FCC decision, notwithstanding the issue of whether they had the legal authority or not, the FCC decided because of the threat of mass indiscriminate redistribution that would happen that the harm that would be created out there was significant enough that it was an appropriate place for them to come in and set standards.
And by the way, it's been set in the aftermarket before. The V-chip is a perfect example of that it. The other thing is that if you have the substantial redistribution, what is likely to happen is that all those millions of Americans who have regular television sets that get their programming over the air, they will find the likelihood that that programming will move much faster to cable, to satellite, and to the other things, because, I mean, that's frankly where the marketplace will be. And so, what the FCC was trying to do was to try to kind of slow that train until, in fact, we got to the digital world.
Mr. ISSA. Let me just ask one final question on this series. I started off with a red light, so I really don't know how much time I have.
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Mr. JENKINS. Without objection, the gentleman will be allowed one more question.
Mr. ISSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
For the record, when we talk about the analog hole today versus, for example, an analog cable transmission, aren't we talking—I'll ask it as a question, what quality are we really talking about? In other words, in my digital set top box with recording that I have from both coasts, I have one on both coasts from each of my providers, if I take an analog output to a TV, but instead of a TV; I output to a videotape recorder; again, my Sonys I've had for years. As a consumer, I see no difference in the quality of that output, low res output, analog, and the low res output I'd get if I never went through my cable box and simply went directly to my analog.
For the consumer, isn't there an expectation that those two are equivalent and thus should be treated equivalent by the people on this dais for purposes of the prior standards we all dealt with for analog recording and time shifting and video tape recording and the like? Is that a fair assumption?
Mr. GLICKMAN. I'm not an expert, obviously, in the quality of the material, but I think consumers expect the quality regardless of whether they get it on analog or digital. But what we've got here is a situation where they're going to be run through the digital system material that is unprotected, and that is not in their interests at all.
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Mr. ISSA. I certainly agree, and maybe Mr. Petricone, as the more technical on the machine side, the analog outputs, again, we clearly have, under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we clearly moved a little bit away from beta standard because it could be easily digitally recorded, copied 1,000 times identically and redistributed. But on the analog output, which is part of what this hearing is today, how are we to view closing that, in other words, flagging it if, in fact, it's going to my—and I have to stick to the most basic I think my constituents understand—my Sony video tape recorder to be recorded and put in my briefcase and taken from Washington, where I have no time to watch it, to California where I might.
Mr. PETRICONE. We have no objection to addressing the analog hole issue and in fact have worked extensively with the content industry in the past to do that.
I think what our issue is with the current draft is the fact that it was not, you know, their version of working with us is apparently coming up with this immensely complex, incredibly, you know, nearly incomprehensible program, not sharing it with us and then running to you and asking you to enact it. You know, again, that is not the kind of private sector driven consensus based process that we would like to see here.
Mr. GLICKMAN. Mr. Issa, could I just add one comment?
Mr. ISSA. With the Chairman's indulgence, sure.
Mr. GLICKMAN. I just would mention that we have two companies—I think they're both members of Mr. Petricone's association; I'm not positive, but Thompson and IBM who have sent letters to the Chairman indicating their support for this legislation. I would like those to be part of the record.
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Mr. SMITH [presiding]. Okay; without objection, they'll be made a part of the record.
Mr. ISSA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Issa.
The gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Boucher, is recognized for his questions.
Mr. BOUCHER. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I can't resist the opportunity to welcome back to this Committee our former colleague, Dan Glickman, with whom we spent many years in productive pursuits here, and I hope this will be the first of many appearances that you will have.
Mr. GLICKMAN. We were together on many issues.
Mr. BOUCHER. We were, and I'm looking for some opportunity for us to join forces again here.
But I want to thank you very much and the other witnesses as well for sharing your views with us today. Let me just make several points, and these will kind of be a context for the questions I'll ask. First, I do not harbor hostility toward the broadcast flag. I understand the logic of it. I think it is important that high value programming be made available for over the air digital broadcast, and I perceive the problem that the motion picture studios have in making that content available for the over-the-air broadcast if there is no assurance that it is not going to be uploaded to the Internet.
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So I comprehend that argument, and I don't have basic hostility to the broadcast flag. I do, however, have a couple of views regarding it. The first of those is that it ought to be considered in the broader context of assuring the provision of fair use rights for the purchasers of digital media and ensuring, in fact, the right of consumers when they have purchased content lawfully to make use of that content as long as they're not infringing the copyright of the copyright holder.
And H.R. 1201, which I've introduced, along with others, contains that set of guarantees. The position I have just announced, I can add, is the position of the Chairman of the Committee on Energy and Commerce, to which H.R. 1201 has been principally referred, and I assume the Committee at some point, perhaps next year, will begin a series of hearings on that set of issues.
The second thing I would say about the broadcast flag is that it seems to me that there are certain kinds of programming that should not be flagged at all: news programming, in my view, should not be flagged. If someone wants to excerpt a small piece from a news program and put that on the Internet, send it to friends, if the rare occasion happens, and the local TV station covers me doing something, and it turns out to be particularly good, an even rarer event still, I might want to email that to my mother and say aren't you proud of me now? [Laughter.]
And my 81-year-old mother uses e-mail, I am proud to say.
But under a strict version of the broadcast flag, if that news program was flagged, I would not be able to upload that excerpt to the Internet.
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It seems to me also that public affairs programs generally should not be flagged and should be available for excerpts of it or perhaps all of it to be emailed, and there doesn't seem to me to be any particular harm to a content owner if we permit that. And Mr. Glickman, at the proper time, I'm going to ask you to respond to those recommendations.
Point number two: I think this Subcommittee should take up and report a comprehensive reform of music licensing issues. We primarily need to be addressing section 115, but perhaps the section 114 problems Mr. Bainwol has suggested and others have recommended to us could also be considered in that broader context. And I know that Mr. Bainwol's association also would like to see us address the section 115 issues, as would others. And so, I would commend, Mr. Chairman, that idea to you, and hopefully, we can move forward with that legislation in the near term.
The third point I would make is that the argument for the broadcast flag, which I have articulated perhaps not perfectly, in my view does not extend to digital radio. It seems to me that piracy from radio broadcasts are not the primary problem that you face. Peer-to-peer is probably a bigger concern, but perhaps the Supreme Court decision in Grokster will help you address that. I hope it does.
The bigger problem might be if someone is intent on committing piracy that they would simply go and buy a CD, and they would use the CD for the same purpose that you're suggesting they might use a digital radio broadcast. The CD, after all, doesn't involve waiting. You can put it in your tray right away and go ahead and do whatever it is you're going to do with it. It's a better quality product than the digital broadcast, which has undergone compression, and probably would be better than MP3 but not CD quality.
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And it seems to me that most of the radio stations are just playing the same 20 songs over and over, and once you've recorded them, what are you going to do then? You go buy a CD in all likelihood. So, I mean, the CD really is the bigger issue, and so, I'm not sure the case has been made that we ought to embark on this notion of a broadcast flag for digital radio.
I would also note that unlike the TV flag, which has the sole purpose of preventing uploading to the Internet, your proposal for a radio flag would dramatically affect the ability of the person at home who is receiving the broadcast to engage in copying. It's a dramatic assault on fair use.
And so, as you may have detected from these remarks, I'm not quite sold on the idea yet. And I will ask you at the proper time for your comments on that.
Mr. SMITH. Would the Gentleman from Virginia like an extra minute?
Mr. BOUCHER. Yes, would the Chairman be so kind as to grant an extra minute?
Mr. SMITH. Without objection, the Gentleman is recognized for an additional minute.
Mr. BOUCHER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
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I would also note that the bill that has been put forward, Mr. Bainwol, would prevent the scrolling features on the new devices that XM and Sirius are getting ready to introduce from functioning. These are features that allow you to categorize by artist, by genre, et cetera, much the way that IPod does, and I think those devices would be rendered dead on arrival were your bill to become law. As I read section 8(b) of the bill, that information could not be used for scrolling purposes.
Finally, let me say I have not had time to review and reflect on the analog hole bill. I just saw that yesterday. I am concerned that it is a far reaching technology mandate that would apply to any device that has the ability to convert an analog signal back to digital, including, by the way, a personal computer, and so, personal computers would have to contain this mandated technology, and I can assure you that before we get to the point of doing that, we're going to have to have a lot more conversation.
Now, with those comments, let me give both Mr. Glickman and Mr. Bainwol an opportunity, if the Chairman permits, to comment on what I've said about the broadcast flag for television and the broadcast flag for radio.
Mr. SMITH. If you all would answer the question, and then, we will go to the next Member.
Mr. GLICKMAN. I enjoyed working with you, and while we disagree on some of these issues, you're a person that I feel comfortable working with, and we should continue to do that.
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First of all, broadcast flag: I think it's clear that what the FCC said is that broadcast flag in no way limits or prevents customers from making copies of digital broadcast television content. If you want to watch and use TiVO, TiVO has been certified as proper remote access, so that is protected under the flag.
The issue here is that, as you know, that satellite and cable under contractual arrangements have a different ability in terms of redistribution than broadcast does. So what we are trying to do is to provide equal, fair, and balanced treatment, so they are all treated the same way. Now, that does not necessarily have to mean that your grandmother or aunt or sister, you cannot work out some sort of arrangement to, in fact, send—in fact, I would like to see your 15-second snippets from the House or anywhere else.
But I am just saying that there's got to be relatively equal treatment here, because if there's not, I am telling you it will all move away from broadcast television, and that will be a dagger in the heart of an awful lot of people who don't have access to cable or satellite, including people who live in small towns in rural America, so that's my point there. But I appreciate your general support for the concept of it, and we want to, you know, continue to work with you on it.
You know, on the issue of 1201, we strongly oppose your position on that for a lot of reasons. One is the circumvention provisions, particularly as it relates to the scientific area, which you put in there. It looked like they're wide enough to drive a Mack truck through, because there's a lot of ambiguity in that particular provision. And we've talked a lot about fair use before, and the fact is that under our laws, if you get one, you don't get another one for free in the world. You know, any kind of product that you buy, you don't get an extra product for free.
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But, look, I understand where you're coming from here and will continue to talk to you about it. I don't want to mislead you, however. You haven't persuaded me today about 1201.
Mr. BAINWOL. It's my turn. Just to clarify, my last name is Bainwol. I have been called worse things, though, so that's fine.
Let me take a moment and kind of reframe where we are from a financial standpoint. Gigi characterized a story in the press that was a bit misleading. To put the context again, the sale of recorded music was about $14.6 billion in 1999. We're under $12 billion in physical. In 2005, we'll lose more on physical than we will gain from this wonderful marketplace that's arising on the digital side. So we're still sliding down. With a little luck, 2005 will be our down year, and we'll begin climbing out. And our future is predicated on having a rate of growth on the digital side that exceeds the rate of loss on the physical side.
And we think we can get there, but we can get there only if the right policies are in place. We've got lots of problems. We're not short of problems. We've got, obviously, P2P, which we think we're beginning to get a handle on. We've got the physical piracy that we're dealing with. But along comes this new functionality.
In the old days, you had radio, and you had ownership. Now, obviously, with 114, you've got satellite, you've got cable, you've got Internet. You have this convergence going on where basically, radio is going to be available on all of these platforms and over the air, and radio, on over-the-air, of course, we don't have a performance right, we don't get paid. All of a sudden, you've got this new device that in effect replicates what you can do on ITunes.
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So the consumer will have a choice: do I want to go on ITunes and spend 99 cents to buy a new track; you know, I saw Nine Inch Nails. Maybe that's it; maybe it's something else. Or do you go onto your new device and say gee, I can mark it, I can keep it, I can move it to my device, and I don't have to pay for it, and it's part of a playlist, and I've got it, I've got possession of the thing.
The challenge is as radio converges across platforms, you end up with an ability to replace the sale. No sane human being, few sane human beings would go and choose to pay for something when they can replicate that experience for nothing.
Our challenge now is to make sure that this functionality, which can cause enormous harm at a very difficult time for us is treated in a fashion where it's either licensed or compensated for fairly.
Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Boucher.
Without objection, by the way, I'd like for the full introductions of the witnesses to be made a part of the record. And Mr. Glickman, let me address my first question to you and say at the outset, I may be at a slight disadvantage, because you may have already these questions, and if so, feel free to tell me, and I'll go to the next one.
I was just curious, though, Mr. Glickman, how you thought the typical consumer felt about the broadcast flag and the analog hole, assuming they've thought about it at all, but let's assume an educated consumer, and are they for it, or are they opposed to it? What is your experience?
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Mr. GLICKMAN. You know, I haven't done any survey research on this, but my guess would be is that since the bulk of consumers have analog television sets now, and they want to maintain high quality content, digital content that's coming down the road, that they would be upset to know that because of this analog hole, you could have massive redistribution of unprotected digital content. They wouldn't like that.
I don't know whether they've thought about specifically this particular technology or not. But I think if they did think about it, they would probably worry about it, given all of the advances that are occurring in content, both television and movies.
On the broadcast flag, my guess is that if consumers of over the air television, which there are millions of in this country, particularly in underserved areas would know that, the content providers and the distributors would likely shift to cable and satellite because the content can be massively redistributed. That would upset them very much, because they could end up with nothing, perhaps, except maybe public broadcasting or other kinds of channels that would not necessarily fit on those new mediums.
So I think they would be concerned about it, and you know, that's my judgment right now.
Mr. SMITH. Okay; thank you, Mr. Glickman.
Mr. Petricone, it's my understanding, I think I recall, that the membership of the Consumer Electronics Association either is neutral about or supports the broadcast flag. Is that a fair statement?
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Mr. PETRICONE. Mr. Chairman, again, we are a large association. We represent over 2,000 members, and we have members with differing views on the broadcast flag issue. When the issue was before the FCC, we took a neutral position.
Mr. SMITH. You're not going to go any farther than that? Do you want to say anything about a majority of the members or members you've talked to or anything like that?
Mr. PETRICONE. You know, Mr. Chairman, it's sometimes being in a trade association is difficult, and sometimes, you have members, and it seems to happen more often than one would like, that have very strong positions on an important issue, and when that happens, the best thing to do is to generally stay out of it.
Mr. SMITH. It seems like you're a good politician, too. All right.
Mr. Bainwol, what has been the reaction from the satellite and the broadcasters to your proposal? If they've had concerns, what are those concerns? And on the other side, who supports your proposal?
Mr. BAINWOL. Well, we've had discussions with the satellite folks and broadcasters. You know, if I die and come back, I'd love to be a broadcaster in the radio context. I get free spectrum; I get free content, and I have an ability here potentially to replicate what ITunes does and not have to pay for the product.
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So, you know, they're not terribly anxious to come to an arrangement here. Because we have no performance right, they don't have to pay us. There's no reason for them to come to the table. So we've reached out to them over the last two and a half years in a very aggressive fashion, but it's very hard to compel them to act.
The satellite folks are in a similar situation. Of course, we have a performance right there, but that pays for the performance, not for distribution. What's going on here is the conversion of radio to a mechanism to take performance and turn it into a distribution to replace ownership. So the satellite folks also, they're engaged also. We're in reasonable discussions, but I don't know that we'll get across the finish line in terms of reaching an agreement.
Satellite and over-the-air, they're fighting for market position, they're fighting to compete, and they want to use this functionality in this competition, and we're left out there holding the bag. All we want is compensation. We want to avoid harm. It's been a very difficult time for us in the last 6 years, and this functionality is very cool and very meaningful. Fans deserve to have it but not at our expense. Let's find a way to make it work. We can't get them to the table, though, to come to a deal. That's why we need help.
Mr. SMITH. Okay; thank you, Mr. Bainwol.
Ms. Sohn, let me ask you about three activities, and it's my understanding, I believe, that you have indicated support for them in your testimony, but let me just go through these three and see what you think about them, and I'm assuming that Public Knowledge does support them, but I just want to double-check with you. First of all, suits against P2P users who upload and download copyrighted files.
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Ms. SOHN. If they do so on a massive scale, yes, a large scale.
Mr. SMITH. Well, how do you define large scale?
Ms. SOHN. Well, certainly more than one, but, you know, hundreds of files. You know, it's basically—I have to say that both the recording industry and the motion picture industry actually have done a pretty good job of going after mass file——
Mr. SMITH. At the risk of making Mr. Boucher nervous, what about a dozen or two files?
Ms. SOHN. You know, I really don't want to sort of parse numbers, but I don't think that that's necessarily a very good use of their resources.
Mr. SMITH. So you're talking about the real abusers.
Ms. SOHN. The real pirates, yes, the real abusers, absolutely.
Mr. SMITH. What about the use of some DRM technologies like Apple's Fair Play?
Ms. SOHN. Absolutely. As long as it comes up in the marketplace, we are for it. If it's Government-mandated, we're against it.
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Mr. SMITH. Okay; what about the passing on of warning notices by ISPs?
Ms. SOHN. Well, we actually put out a public statement applauding the agreement between Disney and Verizon to do so.
Mr. SMITH. Has Public Knowledge always supported those three actions?
Ms. SOHN. Yes, since the very beginning.
Mr. SMITH. You have; okay. Thank you very much.
Ms. SOHN. Could I just make one comment——
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Ms. SOHN.—about whether consumers care? Because I think this is really important. At the FCC alone, there were between 5,000 and 7,000 consumer comments opposing the broadcast flag filed. So, you know, when you don't actually have digital television, Mr. Glickman is right. People don't really know what you might be missing. But certainly, of those who are tech savvy, they did weigh in. And I do know that in addition, tens of thousands of constituents have weighed in with their Members opposing the reinstatement of the broadcast flag over the last 6 months.
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Mr. SMITH. Okay; thank you, Ms. Sohn.
The gentlewoman from California, Ms. Lofgren, is recognized for questions.
Ms. LOFGREN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thanks to the witnesses for being here.
It's great to hear your comments. As with my colleagues, I think it's important to put my questions in a context. I have been a Member of this Subcommittee for many years, and I think that there is unanimity among each Member that we should do what we can to support content owners from being ripped off. I mean, that is an important principle, and those rights need to be protected. I also have two other concerns when it comes to proposals, and I'll just state them.
First, consumers have rights, too, and if in our efforts to protect content owners, we don't also acknowledge the rights of consumers, and that's a problem for me, and there's a second issue which is probably rooted in Silicon Valley, where I come from: if we, in outlining a scheme, have the impact of impeding the development of technology, then, that is a huge problem, because we wouldn't be here; we wouldn't have CDs; we wouldn't have a lot of things if we had impeded the development of technology, so I'm always on the lookout for that.
Along getting to my first point or second point of consumers, I have some skepticism about the broadcast flag proposal, and it's not just about fair use; it's about lawful use. And I'm wondering both for RIAA and MPAA, how you would assure consumers that, say, for example, they have a right to take—we watch the Daily Show when I stay up that late with Jon Stewart where he will do a clip of one politician and then a clip of something else. I mean, theoretically, if you flag it, you couldn't do that.
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There's another issue which is not fair use which is just noninfringing use. I mean, there is material that is in the public domain. And theoretically, you could control, through technology, what you do not have the right to control through the law. I'm wondering how you would address those two issues if the broadcast flag were to go forward.
Mr. GLICKMAN. Well, thank you.
First of all, I agree with you. These are questions of balance. I served on that row, and I know what it's like to try to bring folks together, and sometimes, you can't reach agreement as an industry, and that's why, you know, Congress has a leadership role on some of these issues, as you did in the V-chip and other kinds of things, where you came in and tried to deal with this issue.
And in terms just mentioning impeding the development of technology, there are a multitude of technologies. There are technologies of delivery devices. There's also technologies of content, and people want to see the most modern and new ways of movies and television, and so, there's technology in that area as well. And so, I don't want to put just technology in a little box. It just depends on the delivery system. It also involves the content that's produced out there.
The only thing I would tell you is that I would read from the FCC decision itself. They say, A, we wish to reemphasize that our action herein in no way limits or prevents consumers from making copies of digital broadcast television content. The goal will not interfere with or preclude consumers from copying broadcast program and using it or redistributing it within the home or similar personal environment as consistent with copyright law.
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So, I mean, that is from the FCC decision, and of course, that's basically the decision that we want to see you reauthorize, put into statute. And, you know, obviously, common sense has to be underlying anything that we do in this area, and, you know, we would hope to work with you to make sure that would be the case.
Ms. LOFGREN. Mr. Bainwol?
Mr. BAINWOL. Yes, I would simply add in terms of the technology by which we would solve this problem, we're agnostic. In a perfect world, in an ideal world, we'd do that with encryption at the source. We understand that's probably too late, so a flag approach or some other approach is probably fine.
But the bottom line is I would echo Dan's words about common sense. We are perfectly fine to build in common sense adjustments to accommodate genuine fair use concerns. What we're not fine with is allowing radio to morph into an ITunes or a Rhapsody substitution where we get no payment.
And let me just use this moment to put all this into context. I hear a lot of talk about AHRA, which was, you know, before I was involved in this business, but 1992; that was about serial copying. To give you a sense of context here, AHRA probably provides the music world a couple million bucks a year; I don't know if that's precisely right, but order of magnitude, that's right; a couple of million dollars a year, okay?
Right now—two years ago, you had no download market. Right now, we're dealing with about 7 million downloads a week in the legitimate download market: ITunes, Wal-Mart, the other services. In that context, according to public reports, the music world gets somewhere between—about two-thirds. So in a given week, you can do the math: we do okay.
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The bottom line is in about 3 days, we capture what we would get under AHRA. So AHRA comes nowhere near approximating the loss of value. We are in a hole. Creators have suffered huge losses.
Ms. LOFGREN. If I may, and I know the red light is on, and the Chairman will allow the other two witnesses to answer, I'm sure, but——
Mr. SMITH. Without objection, the gentlewoman is yielded another minute.
Ms. LOFGREN. Are we having a second round of questions, Mr. Chairman, or not?
Mr. SMITH. Not necessarily.
Ms. LOFGREN. Then I will just state I have many questions that I perhaps can send to the witnesses. I'll just note that the mandating in the analog hole bill of particular technology is almost always a mistake to mandate, for the Government to decide a set of technologies. I mean, we should never vote to do that. I wonder if the other two witnesses could address the question. I thank the Chairman for the extra minute.
Ms. SOHN. I'd like to address the part of your question I think to Mr. Glickman that talked about fair use and the broadcast flag, and I would just simply refer everybody to the CRS report for Congress entitled Copy Protection of Digital Television: the Broadcast Flag. And just indulge me for a second.
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It says current technological limitations have the potential to hinder some activities which might normally be considered fair use under existing copyright law. For example, a consumer who wished to record a program to watch at a later time or at a different location might be prevented when otherwise approved technologies do not allow for such activities or do not integrate with one another or with older legacy devices.
So there is definitely—and Mr. Glickman did not answer—I don't remember whose question it was exactly; I think it was Mr. Boucher's question about exceptions for news programming. You're never going to package news programming for later sale on DVD. Nobody wants to see, you know, the DVD package of the nightly news. And I think it's important, we have troubles because of the FCC's involvement, I think the very least, you have to answer the question what's your objection to not flagging news and public affairs programming? I don't want to diss the broadcasters, but that's not the kind of high value programming that Mr. Glickman and his members are referring to.
Mr. PETRICONE. If I can just address the issue of whether the AHRA applies in this context to these new technologies, you know, under the AHRA, the definition of a digital audio copied recording includes digital reproductions of digital musical recordings, whether that reproduction is made directly from another digital musical recording or indirectly from a transmission.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Bainwol's predecessor told the Senate the AHRA will eliminate the legal uncertainty about audio home taping that has clouded the marketplace. The bill will bar copyright infringement lawsuits for both analog and digital audio home recording by consumers and for the sale of digital audio equipment by manufacturers and importers. It will thus allow consumer electronics manufacturers to introduce new audio technology into the market without fear of infringement lawsuits. So, you know, for the RIAA to come back now with its extraordinarily narrow reading of what the AHRA said is frankly revisionist history.
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If I can also add, Mr. Bainwol keeps saying that digital radio essentially turns radio into ITunes. What you get with digital radio is current radio, except it sounds somewhat better. In other words, the DJ talks over the first 10 seconds of the Led Zeppelin, and then, the last 10 seconds of the song fades into the ad for Pizza Hut.
So, again, if that's what you're comfortable with, that's fine, but that's in no way replication of what you're getting from, say, an ITunes type service.
Mr. BAINWOL. Mr. Chairman, if I may, there are so many inaccuracies riddled in that statement. I'm not sure where to begin. I know we don't have a whole lot of time, but just on the functionality issue, you didn't say I could; may I proceed?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, Mr. Bainwol. Please. Actually, we're going to give the Gentlewoman from California an additional minute for you to respond.
Mr. BAINWOL. I'm just a touch overenthusiastic here, but, you know, what you can do with this device, the key thing is you don't have to listen to the song. You can see the tracks, and you can say I'm going to mark that track and store it into my device here along with my other stuff and create a playlist and listen to it whenever I want. It's essentially a tethered download. And it creates an incentive to keep the subscription going alive, because you only have it so long as you have the subscription.
So this is not radio, you know, the disc jockey talking over the thing. You can amass a wonderful library that is a substitution for a purchase at a time where we can't afford to give our music away.
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Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Bainwol. Thank you, Ms. Lofgren.
This is what we wanted today was a healthy discussion. I don't know whether we're really getting to that fourth goal that I had for today's hearing about common ground yet, but we're working on that.
The gentleman from Utah, Mr. Cannon, is recognized for his questions.
Mr. CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to apologize to you and the other Members of the Committee and also our panel for not having been able to be here for the whole hearing. Mr. Issa pointed out this is the most fair panel we could have had on this issue just before he left, and I appreciate that, and I just want Mr. Petricone, who was very anxious to respond, if you would like to respond to Mr. Bainwol, you're welcome to do so on my time.
Mr. PETRICONE. I just wanted to clarify, the digital radio, the terrestrial digital radio service is not a subscription service. It's free, over-the-air radio, again, like you're getting today, except that it sounds better.
On the satellite end, which I know is also a concern of Mr. Bainwol's, you know, what Mr. Bainwol is referring to is an ongoing royalty dispute between his members and the satellite industry. And just last year, Congress created the Copyright Royalty Board to handle these types, these exact types of business disputes. And we suggest that the Copyright Royalty Board be allowed to do its work, do what you set it up to do and that consumers not be deprived of new products and digital technologies. Thank you.
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Mr. CANNON. Let me let Mr. Bainwol respond to that, but let me just ask a question, and if you could deal with the question and the process, I'd appreciate that, Mr. Bainwol, but certainly, you're welcome to respond to that on my time.
But let me ask: the FCC's broadcast flag rules were very narrowly tailored to prevent unauthorized mass, indiscriminate redistribution of digital video content over the Internet, and the HD radio proposal would cover unauthorized redistribution over digital networks. Could this mean that it would sweep in wide area networks such as universities, local area networks such as offices, or home networks? In other words, does the term digital networks need to be explicitly defined in this legislation to move it forward?
And if you could also respond to the fact that we've had lots and lots of institutional discussion about the broadcast flag on video, and those discussions have not been participated in. We haven't had the same discussion on audio. And could you discuss just briefly whether we don't need to go back and have some more extended discussions? And then, of course, you're welcome to respond to Mr. Petricone.
Mr. BAINWOL. Okay; I'm going to try to keep my wits about me, but I think I have three points to make. The first is Michael gets confused between a performance and a distribution. We don't get paid on over-the-air radio. We do get paid on satellite for a performance. We're not being paid to replicate an ITunes purchase, so that's a key distinction.
Two, in terms of your concerns about universities and LANs, we're perfectly happy to work with drafters to make sure that the language captures only that which is necessary to capture to make sure that the piracy problem is not——
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Mr. CANNON. And here, you know, I'm torn about whether a kid in a dorm room can grab something and then put it on his local area network for a kid three dorms down. That's awkward. That may be the worst case, but in a home, if you're capturing and then replaying it, it seems to me that we need to have some——
Mr. BAINWOL. We're perfectly fine with flexibility to make sure that that home context is taken care of.
That third piece here that I think I have to just drive home, because it separates the case of motion picture and video broadcast from us, there is a market failure. We do not have a performance right. We have a compulsory license on the 114 side. There's nothing we can do to say if you don't give us the right protection, you don't get the programming.
We're stuck, and because we're stuck, we need help. I wish it weren't the case. In a perfect world, if you could give us a grant of a performance right, I think we would be pretty thrilled, and so would a bunch of artists around this country. But that's going to take some time. In the meantime, we're trying to dig out of a hole, and if we don't get this thing right, we're going to have a huge impact on the creativity of this country.
A third of the artists that were signed to labels were lost in the last 6 years. Now, it's time we do something to make sure that the investment in content and content innovation is protected.
Mr. CANNON. But, I mean, there are a lot of problems behind that statement about losing your artists to signed contracts that go way beyond the legislation we're dealing with here.
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Mr. BAINWOL. No, I'm making the point that the consequence of a failed decision here——
Mr. CANNON. No, I understand the point. But there are a lot of failures, and I've been arguing with your industry for a very long time about some of the fundamental problems that are going on here, including how you generate creativity in the market as opposed to in the part that we control.
So anyway. Thanks. We do need to work on, I think, language, and maybe we can come up with something, but Ms. Sohn, in your testimony you argue that if a Member of this Subcommittee wants to email a snippet of his appearance on national TV, and I hope this question hasn't been asked, but I actually would like to know that's off a broadcast flag scheme, that would prohibit him from doing so.
Does the same concern extend to cable and satellite snippets? If so, what position do you take on the distribution through those media? So, would TiVO To Go service, which is certified as broadcast flag compliant, enable a Subcommittee Member enable himself to email himself a new snipped, or could future technologies to facilitate that activity be certified as broadcast compliant?
Ms. SOHN. Let me see if I fully understand the question. All I can say is that the first part of your question, you know, under the broadcast flag rule, you would not be able to do that. You would not be able to email yourself a snippet. You can now email a cable or satellite program. That is not prohibited. Did I answer that
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sufficiently?
Mr. CANNON. And in part because I see that my time has expired, and I apologize, Mr. Chairman, for going over and yield back if there were theoretically something to yield back.
Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Cannon.
The gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Meehan, is recognized for his questions.
Mr. MEEHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And Mr. Petricone, if you get a work-related email during the Monday Night Football game on Monday, I want you to know you're going to have the rest of the evening to work on that email, because the Patriots are going to be ahead of the Colts by four touchdowns. You don't have to watch the second half.
Mr. PETRICONE. Congressman, I grew up in northwestern Connecticut. I'm a big Patriots fan, and I certainly hope you're right.
Mr. MEEHAN. Mr. Glickman, it's great to have you back before the Committee. You were an outstanding Member of Congress. The MPAA seeks Congressional ratification of both the FCC's Broadcast Flag Order and its companion Digital Content Protection Technology Approval Order.
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Now, as you know, the technology approval order in that order, Chairman Martin expressed concern that the non-assert clause in some of the technological agreements could hinder competition and suppress innovation. I'm curious: do you believe from your perspective that licensing agreements issued pursuant to Government mandated rules, the essential purpose of which is to protect intellectual property should be permitted to contain provisions which expressly require licensees to surrender their own intellectual property as a prerequisite to enabling a Government mandated license?
And I'm curious, it seems isn't such a provision completely inconsistent with protecting the intellectual property rights that is, in essence, the essence of the proposed legislation to fix the problem?
Mr. GLICKMAN. Well, to be honest with you, we have not taken a specific position on that, and I'm going to have to get back to you on that. As a general proposition, we don't think that the FCC's ruling is inconsistent with the flexibility that you talked about, but can't answer the question quite candidly right now.
Mr. MEEHAN. Would anyone else like to comment on it?
Mr. GLICKMAN. I will get you an answer shortly.
Mr. MEEHAN. Okay; thanks, Dan.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. CANNON [presiding]. The Gentleman yields back.
Does the Gentleman from Florida have questions?
Mr. Wexler is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. WEXLER. Thanks.
First, I'd like to compliment all four witnesses, because I think each one of you has been an extremely effective analyst, spokesperson for your point of view, and even though you have differing points of view, I think the Subcommittee has learned a great deal from them.
In the context of trying to figure out the equities or the balance in terms of the competing points of view, I would like, if I could, to ask Mr. Petricone: if I understand your position correctly, and obviously, you'll tell me if I don't, but if I understand your position correctly, you articulate that Congress should move forward with the broadcast flag legislation with any of the three proposals, including H.R. 1201, which has been refer