SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
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26–053 PDF
2006
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES (BATFE): GUN SHOW ENFORCEMENT
(PART I AND II)
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
AND HOMELAND SECURITY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
FEBRUARY 15 AND FEBRUARY 28, 2006
Serial No. 109–123
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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., Wisconsin, Chairman
HENRY J. HYDE, Illinois
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina
LAMAR SMITH, Texas
ELTON GALLEGLY, California
BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
WILLIAM L. JENKINS, Tennessee
CHRIS CANNON, Utah
SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama
BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
JOHN N. HOSTETTLER, Indiana
MARK GREEN, Wisconsin
RIC KELLER, Florida
DARRELL ISSA, California
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
MIKE PENCE, Indiana
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
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STEVE KING, Iowa
TOM FEENEY, Florida
TRENT FRANKS, Arizona
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California
RICK BOUCHER, Virginia
JERROLD NADLER, New York
ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina
ZOE LOFGREN, California
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
MAXINE WATERS, California
MARTIN T. MEEHAN, Massachusetts
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York
ADAM B. SCHIFF, California
LINDA T. SÁNCHEZ, California
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland
DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida
PHILIP G. KIKO, General Counsel-Chief of Staff
PERRY H. APELBAUM, Minority Chief Counsel
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Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina, Chairman
DANIEL E. LUNGREN, California
MARK GREEN, Wisconsin
TOM FEENEY, Florida
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
RIC KELLER, Florida
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
MIKE PENCE, Indiana
J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
ROBERT C. SCOTT, Virginia
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
MAXINE WATERS, California
MARTIN T. MEEHAN, Massachusetts
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
ANTHONY D. WEINER, New York
MICHAEL VOLKOV, Chief Counsel
DAVID BRINK, Counsel
JASON CERVENAK, Full Committee Counsel
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BOBBY VASSAR, Minority Counsel
C O N T E N T S
HEARING DATES
Wednesday, February 15, 2006
PART I
Tuesday, February 28, 2006
PART II
OPENING STATEMENT
February 15, 2006
The Honorable Howard Coble, a Representative in Congress from the State of North Carolina, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
The Honorable Robert C. Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
February 28, 2006
The Honorable Tom Feeney, a Representative in Congress from the State of Florida, and Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
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The Honorable Robert C. Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
WITNESSES
February 15, 2006
Ms. Annette Gelles, Owner, Showmasters Gun Shows
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
Mr. James Lalime, Gun Salesman, Colonial Heights, VA
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
Mr. John White, Owner, The GunSmith
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
Mr. Suzanne McComas, Licensed Private Investigator, New York, NY
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
February 28, 2006
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Mr. Michael R. Bouchard, Assistant Director Field Operations, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE)
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
Lt. Col. D.A. Middleton, Deputy Chief of Police, Henrico County Police Department
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
Major David McCoy, City of Richmond Police Department
Oral Testimony
Prepared Statement
APPENDIX
Material Submitted for the Record
February 15, 2006
Prepared Statement of the Honorable Robert C. Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
Letter from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) regarding possible Title 18 U.S.C. violations
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Richmond Gun Show list
Memorandum to Lieutenant Colonel Robert B. Northern from Captain Robert G. Kemmler, regarding Gun Show Activity on August 22, 2005
Residence Check Sheet used by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE)
Affidavit from Randy Clark, Boutetourt County, VA
Affidavit from Warren Bruce Jones, Henrico County, VA
Affidavit from Ikaya C. Parker, Chesterfield County, VA
Post-hearing questions to Annette Gelles, Owner, Showmasters Gun Shows, from the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Representative in Congress from the State of Texas
February 28, 2006
Prepared Statement of the Honorable Robert C. Scott, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
Response to post-hearing questions from Michael Bouchard, Assistant Director, Field Operations, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE)
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BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES (BATFE): GUN SHOW ENFORCEMENT
(Part I)
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 2006
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
and Homeland Security
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:04 p.m., in Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Howard Coble (Chair of the Subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. COBLE. If our witnesses could please take their positions at the witness table.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is a bit irregular procedurally. So we'll all know where we are, Mr. Scott and I had planned to mark up our Second Chance bill, but there is not a working quorum nor a reporting quorum here. In the event that the requisite number does appear, we will suspend hearings very briefly on this matter, and then we will mark up the Second Chance—well, we've got a working quorum. We don't have a reporting quorum.
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We don't have a reporting quorum yet, so we will suspend hearing on this, and then mark up our Second Chance, and then resume this.
Now, for the information of everybody here, there are votes scheduled at 5:30. If we are not able to complete this hearing at the 5:30—when the 5:30 bell rings, we will go vote and return and complete the business, hopefully before too late.
Today, ladies and gentlemen, on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security, we convene a first in a series of oversight hearings on the enforcement operations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms—popularly known as ''ATF''—and Explosives at gun shows. Today's hearing will focus on ATF's operation in the Richmond, VA, area between May of 2004 and August of 2005. Testimony from today's hearing will detail allegations that these operations may have overstepped ATF's core mission.
Now, I want to make it clear, we're not here to hang anybody today, but in all candor, as I have read some of these allegations, it does appear that maybe the ATF activity may have risen to the threshold of being heavy-handed. Don't know that for a fact. We will hear from them subsequently after the President's work period is—President's Day work period is concluded.
The operations in question covered eight gun shows and were conducted in conjunction with the Virginia State Police, the Henrico County Police Department, and the Richmond Police Department. According to the Virginia State Police, these operations were intended to reduce the number of firearms being purchased and transferred to prohibited persons who may have been involved in criminal and/or gang-related activities.
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While we support these efforts, ATF reports that 206 participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants. Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that a person may have knowingly made a false statement to a firearms dealer, a crime which is punishable by imprisonment for up to 5 years, and were ordered to appear at a local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in a Federal arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges.
A copy of this letter is on display in the hearing room and will be made a part of the record.
In addition to stop-and-seizure operations, ATF also implemented full-scale residency checks. Although ordinary residency checks simply require a driver's license and another form of matching identification, residency checks for these shows, it appears, were much more extensive. Full-scale residency checks required uniformed law enforcement to visit the address of every purchaser from Richmond or Henrico County attempting to purchase a gun and ask for a full description of the individual attempting to purchase the firearm, where he or she worked, how many firearms the potential purchaser owned, and in some instances, if there were any concerns about the person in question purchasing a firearm. If no one was at the listed address, a neighbor was interviewed.
In order to conduct full-scale residency checks, 49 offices and agents were assigned to one show alone, which may constitute an excessive law enforcement presence. These operations netted 10 firearm violation convictions, six other pending charges, and an additional 16 convictions for other criminal violations.
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Today's witnesses will testify with firsthand and expert experience about the impact of the ATF's operation so that we may evaluate their efficiency and effectiveness. Today's hearing, I repeat, folks, is not an indictment of the ATF, and we support the ATF's efforts to keep illegal guns off the streets and out of the hands of criminals.
In addition, the hearings are not an attempt to impugn or diminish the reputation or dedication of the ATF nor its agents. These allegations, however, are very serious and merit the scrutiny of this Subcommittee.
I look forward to hearing our witnesses' testimony and hope that it can shed some light on the allegations we have heard concerning ATF's gun show operations in Richmond. For many law-abiding gun purchasers, this was, I am told, not a pleasant experience, impacting friends, families, and in some cases, professional reputations.
Now, I notice, before I recognize my good friend from Virginia, the Ranking Member, that we do have a reporting quorum. Do we not, Mr. Parliamentarian? So let us suspend momentarily, and then we will mark up the Second Chance bill.
[Whereupon, at 4:12 p.m., the Subcommittee proceeded to other business and reconvened the hearing at 4:14 p.m.]
Mr. COBLE. I am now pleased to recognize the Ranking Member, the gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Bobby Scott, for his opening statement.
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Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I want to express my appreciation to you for holding this hearing, due, at least in part, I believe, to my request that you do so. I was contacted by a constituent who expressed his concern about media and other reports of excessive and abusive investigative tactics by the ATF and other law enforcement agencies during a gun show held near Richmond, VA. He asked that I look into the matter because I was a Member of the Judiciary Committee which had oversight responsibilities of ATF and other federally funded activities of law enforcement officials involved, and we requested this hearing.
As we are likely to hear from witnesses today, there are serious allegations about abusive practices, including racial profiling, coercive interrogation tactics, actions tantamount to arrest without probable cause, failure to apprise rights against self-incrimination, and more. Clearly, the ATF form letter that has been displayed raises serious questions about the agency's enforcement tactics in cases connected with the Richmond Gun Show and other enforcement actions in which it was used.
And, Mr. Chairman, has this letter been entered into the record? It has? Okay.
Mr. Chairman, this issue is not about gun control. You and I have different views about that issue, but there are serious allegations about the right of law-abiding citizens exercising their rights. Some obviously want to change the law, and with gun shows I think a lot can be done. But until the law is changed, the law is the law. And so we have to look at these allegations as they affect law-abiding citizens.
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Reports indicate that there was a large number of law enforcement officials—some accounts suggesting there may have been as many as 450, others suggesting 50 to 70—devoted to an effort to address illegal straw purchases of guns. Preliminary reports indicate that 13 arrests related to straw purchase allegations. It is not clear exactly how many have been convicted or what happened with those arrests, but there is a way to have a sting operation that's legal. This dragnet, apparent dragnet effort is not the way it ought to be done.
My interest is to investigate this matter to determine whether or not there's evidence of abusive investigatory or other enforcement tactics, and if so, to work with ATF and other agencies involved to see how the practices can be stopped and that proper procedures can be implemented to prevent occurrences in the future.
We know how to run sting operations legally. You have to show probable cause, and it can be done. But you ought not just stop people without probable cause and without an indication of guilt.
If, on the other hand, there are no problems, I will be pleased to see that the actions of the ATF and other agencies have been vindicated and that the allegations turned out not to be true. However, from media reports and the concerns expressed by persons attending or hearing about the Richmond Gun Show enforcement activities, even if the actions are found not to be improper, we certainly have a problem with appearances that need to be worked on relative to how ATF and other law enforcement officials carry out their responsibilities.
So, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the testimony of our witnesses and working with you and the ATF on addressing the problem on how to avoid the appearances of impropriety and how to enforce the laws that need to be enforced in a way that's consistent with our Constitution.
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Mr. COBLE. I thank the gentleman from Virginia, and I say to each of the Members, I appreciate you all being here, and all Members' opening statements will be made a part of the record.
Permit me to revert to the markup momentarily. I think I failed to note that there was, in fact, the presence of a reporting quorum. There were at least 10 Members here at the time we did that.
It's the practice of the Subcommittee to swear in all witnesses appearing before it, so if you witnesses would please stand and raise your right hands.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. COBLE. Let the record show that each of the witnesses answered in the affirmative, and you may be seated.
In addition to the witnesses, we also welcome those in the audience indicating, obviously, your interest in this matter.
We have four distinguished witnesses with us today. Our first witness is Ms. Annette—is it pronounced ''jealous''? Gelles, hard ''G''—Annette Gelles, owner of Showmasters Gun Shows, a family-operated business. Ms. Gelles has successfully managed the company for the past 10 years, averaging approximately 15 shows per year. Ms. Gelles has a reputation for running a reputable business for the legal sale of firearms as well as educational, historic, and rare related items. She was the operator of the Richmond Gun Show under consideration today at this hearing. Ms. Gelles received her Bachelor of Science in biology from the University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown.
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Our second witness today is Mr. James Lalime—is that the correct pronunciation, Mr. Lalime?—a gun salesman from Colonial Heights, VA. Mr. Lalime has been working for a gun dealer for the past year. He is a frequent attendee of gun shows and was present at last year's Richmond Gun Show, when he was questioned by ATF agents and a Virginia State trooper.
Our third witness is Mr. John White, who is the owner of The GunSmith in Lyndhurst, VA. He also participated in the Richmond Gun Show being examined by today's hearing. Mr. White is a retired law enforcement officer with nearly 30 years of service in the Commonwealth of Virginia. He served as a sergeant with the Albemarle County Police Department, Patrol and Investigations Division. Previously, he served on the Federal Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Force as a Special Deputy U.S. Marshal. Mr. White received his law enforcement certification in 1980 from the Central Shenandoah Criminal Justice Training Center.
Our final witness today is Ms. Suzanne McComas, a licensed private investigator. Previously, she worked as an on-air consultant for Fox News, Court TV, and MTV. Additionally, Ms. McComas worked as a cold case homicide investigator for ''America's Most Wanted.''
Now, I noticed—is Mr. Forbes—I think he was here. Mr. Scott, I say to you there is a bevy of Virginia citizens in the hearing room today, so you need to be on your best behavior. I don't know whether in your district or not.
Mr. SCOTT. That's hard to do, Mr. Chairman.
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Mr. COBLE. But it's good to have you all here, folks. Let me reiterate what I said earlier. There is with certainty a vote that will come down at 5:30. If you all could comply with the red light that appears before you, when that red light appears, the ice on which you are skating is thin. That means your 5 minutes have expired. There will be an amber light that will appear, illuminate, telling you you have 1 minute to wrap up. So if you all could comply with that, we would be appreciative.
And, Ms. Gelles, we will start with you. If you will activate your mike, yes, and pull it closer to you.
TESTIMONY OF ANNETTE GELLES, OWNER, SHOWMASTERS GUN SHOWS
Ms. GELLES. All right. Mr. Chairman, my name is Annette Gelles of Showmaster Gun Shows. I would like to provide a brief statement concerning the events surrounding the Richmond Gun Show August 13-14, 2005, at the Richmond International Raceway.
By way of background, I have been the sole manager and proprietor of Showmasters for 10 years. Showmasters is a family-owned business that began as Old Dominion Shows in 1971. My father and mother began the Roanoke Valley Gun Show and Old Dominion Gun Collectors Society 34 years ago. Over the years, we have produced thousands of shows in Virginia, West Virginia, and Maryland.
We are a family-oriented business with a conservative customer base. We allow no profanity, pornography, explosive or smoke devices so that the show is appropriate for families with children. Many of the exhibitors are retired or active-duty military or law enforcement. Many are just average citizens—hobbyists, knife collectors, coin collectors, holster manufacturers, booksellers, and police suppliers.
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To ensure the public and exhibitors are safe, we check the guns at the door to make sure that they are inoperable, and we tie them. We also make all exhibitors tie their guns. We provide security for 24 hours.
Mr. COBLE. If you will suspend, Ms. Gelles, you say ''tied the guns''?
Ms. GELLES. Yeah, we have cables that we provide, that I give to my security, and we check all the guns to make sure they're unloaded and then tie them so they don't work.
Mr. COBLE. I see. I'm with you.
Ms. GELLES. And we make all the exhibitors do that, too.
ATF and other law enforcement personnel have always attended the shows. Not in great numbers like in the August show, but we would recognize them, one or two walking through as customers, and sometimes, I'm sure, as investigators on official business. They are usually friendly, professional, and not aggressive toward the public or exhibitors.
However, at the Richmond Gun Show on August 13 and 14, 2005, at least 45 law enforcement officers including ATF, Virginia State Police, Henrico County Police, and Richmond City Police were assigned to the show. These officers were acting under ATF's direction and were present in the building on Saturday, August 13, 2005. According to Brian Swann, the Acting Resident Agent in Charge with the ATF Richmond area office at the time, and Donna Tate, who's the Virginia State Police in charge of the gun show's background checks, this was an ATF/Virginia State Police Task Force. I was told by two uniformed Henrico County Police officers that there were at least 14 other Henrico County Police that were present on Saturday in plain clothes.
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This enormous law enforcement presence was reflected throughout the weekend. Sixty-six marked and unmarked law enforcement vehicles were on the lot at 10 a.m. on Sunday morning. The numbers of Henrico County Police at the main entrance before the fence fluctuated all day, but on average there were two or three vehicles at all times. Four hundred Henrico County Police and Richmond City Police were assigned ''in the field'' to assist at the show. I was told that there were a total of 475 Henrico County and Richmond City Police officers.
Mr. Chairman, you might ask the purpose for this operation. Was it explained to me as the show promoter? It was not. Instead, here is what I observed: People were approached and discouraged from purchasing guns. Before attempting to purchase, they were interrogated and accused of being in the business without a license, detained in police vehicles, and gun buyer's homes were visited by police, and much more.
An example of what happened is as follows: One individual was simply pulled aside from the table in the middle of a purchase—he actually was standing at the table doing the paperwork, and an ATF agent came up to him and said, ''What do you want to buy that gun for?'' And then the gentleman tried to ignore him, and the agent said, ''You need to step over here.'' And he said, you know, ''I'm an ATF agent. You need to step away from the table. What do you want to buy that gun for? You have no business with that gun.''
All weekend long people were interrogated in a similar manner at the table in the concession area just outside the ATF Command Post exit door.
Every person who tried to buy a gun at the gun show had a residency check done, according to Special Agent Swann. The residency check consisted of having a marked police vehicle sent to the purchaser's home to check if the person trying to buy a gun actually lived where their identification indicated, usually a Virginia driver's license and/or another form of identification with a matching address. At this point, the purchaser had not yet been run through the background check and, therefore, there was no evidence—there was no evidence present that would indicate the identification presented was correct or incorrect, and no way to ascertain if the individual had a criminal background check or a criminal record.
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As for any real evidence of lawbreakers at the show, here is what we know so far. Two persons with warrants were arrested—I'm sorry. Two persons with warrants for arrest were identified by NICS, just as they would have been if BATF had not been there. Normally, Virginia State Police are assigned to the show and they'll arrest the individuals. This time, only one got arrested, and the other one left because of the delay of the residency check.
Mr. COBLE. Now, your time has expired. If you could wrap up, Ms. Gelles.
Ms. GELLES. All right. What was achieved at the show was it devastated my public attendance. Normally I'll have 4,000 people; 2,000 people came, which cost me about 14,000 that show. The next show, again, I only had about—I had less than 2,000—1,800 at that show and it cost me another 14,000. And we believe it's because of all the publicity of this event.
So it's had a great impact on me. It also had a large impact on our exhibitors, at least 300,000, because people didn't want to bring in guns, and people didn't want to come in with all the police in the parking lot. And basically what I would like to know is what's—how is it going to be prevented again.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Gelles follows:]
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF ANNETTE GELLES
Mr. Chairman my name is Annette Gelles of Showmasters Gun Shows. I would like to provide a brief statement concerning the events surrounding the Richmond Gun Show held on August 13–14, 2005 at the Richmond International Raceway.
By way of background, I have been the sole manager and proprietor of Showmasters for 10 years. Showmasters is a family owned business that began as Old Dominion Shows in 1971. My father and mother began the Roanoke Valley Gun Show and Old Dominion Gun Collectors Society 34 years ago. Over the years, we have produced thousands of shows in Virginia, West Virginia, and Maryland.
We are a family oriented business with a conservative customer base. We allow no profanity, pornography, explosive or smoke devices so that the show is appropriate for families with children. Many of the exhibitors are retired or active duty military or law enforcement personnel. Many are just average citizens—hobbyists, knife collectors, coin collectors, holster manufacturers, booksellers, and those offering police supplies and accessories.
To ensure the public and exhibitors are safe we check guns at the door to make sure none are loaded and the guns are tied so they are inoperative as they enter the show. We also have exhibitors tie their guns so they are inoperative. We provide security during public hours and through the night.
ATF and other law enforcement personnel have always attended the shows. Not in great numbers like the August, show but we would recognize one or two walking through the shows, usually as customers, but I am sure sometimes conducting official business. They are usually friendly, professional, and not aggressive towards the public or exhibitors.
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However, at the Richmond Gun Show on August 13–14, 2005, at least 45 law enforcement officers including ATF, Virginia State Police, Henrico County Police and Richmond City Police were assigned to the Show. These officers were acting under ATF's direction and were present in the building on Saturday August 13, 2005. According to Brian Swann, Acting Resident Agent in Charge (A/RAC) with the ATF Richmond area office at the time, and Donna Tate, Virginia State Police (VSP) this was an ATF/Virginia State Police Task Force. I was told by two uniformed Henrico County police officers that at least fourteen Henrico County Police were present on Saturday in plain clothes.
This enormous law enforcement presence was reflected throughout the weekend. 66 marked and unmarked law enforcement vehicles were on the lot at 10:00 AM on Sunday morning. The numbers of Henrico County Police at the main entrance before the fence fluctuated all day, but on average there were two to three vehicles at all times. 400 Henrico County Police and Richmond City Police were assigned ''in the field'' to assist officers at the show. I understand that there are a total of 475 Henrico County and Richmond City officers. Mr. Chairman, you might ask if the purpose for this operation was explained to me as the show promoter. It was not. Instead, here is what I observed. People were approached and discouraged from purchasing guns, before attempting to purchase they were interrogated and accused of being in the gun business without a license, detained in police vehicles, and gun buyer's homes visited by police and much more.
An example of what happened is as follows: One individual was simply pulled aside from a table in the middle of a purchase and asked by an ATF agent, ''What do you want to buy that gun for?'' All weekend long people were interrogated in a similar manner at a table in the concession area just outside the ATF Command Post exit door.
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Every person who tried to buy a gun at the show had a residency check done, according to Special Agent Swann. The residency check consisted of having a marked police vehicle sent to the purchaser's home to check if the person trying to buy a gun actually lived where their identification indicated (usually a Virginia Drivers License and one other form of identification with a matching address). At this point, the purchaser had not yet been run through the background check and therefore no evidence was present that would indicate the identification presented was incorrect and there was also no way to ascertain if the individual had a criminal record.
As for any real evidence of lawbreakers at the show, here is what we know so far. Two persons with warrants for arrest were identified using NICS, just as they would have been if BATFE had not been there. Normally, the Virginia State Police that are assigned to the show arrest these individuals. One was arrested and one left the building before he could be arrested because of the delay created by the ATF's residency check procedure. We have filed a FOIA request with ATF for more information, but they have yet to release anything substantive to us.
What ATF did achieve was to devastate attendance at the show. Average public attendance is 4,000 persons at the Richmond Gun Show at Richmond International Raceway. I had less than 2,000 in public attendance during August 13–14, 2005. We charge $7.00 for admission and that means we lost about $14,000 in admission charges. The November show also had less than 2,000 in public attendance, we strongly believe due to the fears of law-abiding citizens being unnecessarily monitored by their government. The November show usually has 4,500 to 5,000 in public attendance.
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The impact on exhibitors was much greater. It is difficult to put a dollar amount on the losses experienced by exhibitors because some sales are as much as $70,000 for one gun or $500 for another. However, we estimate their losses well above $300,000. The good will that exhibitors had established with the community as a safe and responsible way for citizens to sell their guns was destroyed that weekend by the overt police and undercover law enforcement presence. Many exhibitors told me that if this were to happen again that they would not be back.
The ATF / Virginia State Police operation was methodical, systematic, prolonged, and vast. Scrutiny should be placed on why these officers were sent out in imposing numbers to do an operation that was of questionable legality, and certainly offensive to our constitutional freedoms. I want to say that well prior to this chain of events, I personally met with the Special Agent in Charge of the Washington Field Division, and offered, along with my colleague, Steve Elliott of C&E Shows, to work with ATF in a mutually respectful and professional way. To ATF's credit, they followed up on some of our positive suggestions. We believed that we were on the right track to an appropriate and harmonious relationship with the Bureau. I would still like that relationship Mr. Chairman. I am not interested in interfering with their lawful enforcement duties. I respect and honor the sacrifices that many law enforcement officers make on a daily basis for our citizens. However, I found that growing up in a relatively small community that the law enforcement officers that were most honored and highly regarded are those who respect and honor the privacy, constitutional, and property rights of the citizens they are serving. ATF needs to account for what happened, explain to this committee why it will not be repeated, and commit itself to working with the trade for the mutually shared goal of safer communities.
Mr. COBLE. Thank you, Ms. Gelles. And, incidentally, folks, when we're cutting you off at the red light, we have examined your written statements. We're thoroughly familiar with them. They will be re-examined. So don't think we're shucking you aside.
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Mr. Lalime?
TESTIMONY OF JAMES LALIME, GUN SALESMAN, COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VA
Mr. LALIME. Yes, sir, thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee. My name is James Lalime, and I live in Colonial Heights, VA. It is a great honor for me to be here today at this oversight hearing on the gun show enforcement. I am currently employed by a Virginia gun dealer as a salesman and was present at the Richmond Gun Show August 13 through 14, 2005. As an avid gun enthusiast and shooter, I usually attend as many gun shows as I possibly can. I decided to attend the Richmond Gun Show to see if I could sell a couple of firearms and some parts that I had. Had I known what was going to transpire, I would not have attended the show.
I had been at the gun show for a few hours after selling one antique rifle, one handgun, and a rifle stock. I was looking over some rifle parts at one of the tables when I was approached by a man who claimed he was an ATF agent, who I later found out was Agent Jerad McComas, and a Virginia State trooper, who was Trooper Ingram. At no time did Agent McComas show me any identification. Agent McComas said he wished to talk to me and stated that I wasn't being charged with anything and that he didn't want to make a scene. Myself, Agent McComas, and Trooper Ingram proceeded to walk over to a side by the entrance in the building where the show was being held. Agent McComas again stated I was not being charged with anything, but began interrogating me.
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The first question Agent McComas asked me was, ''We see you at a lot of gun shows. Are you in the business of buying and selling firearms?'' To which I answered, ''No, sir. These are my personal firearms.'' Again Agent McComas said, ''Well, we see you at every gun show. Are you sure you're not buying and selling guns as a business?'' Again I told him that these were out of my personal collection. To which Agent McComas replied, ''Well, because we see you at all the gun shows, we think you are, and you should get a business license to do so. It is not that hard.''
When I tried to explain to Agent McComas the reason they see me at all the gun shows might be because I work for an FFL dealer and work at those shows, Agent McComas replied, ''Are you walking around at gun shows buying and selling guns for the dealer you work for?'' I told him no, that I was there for myself and that I had some guns I didn't shoot and wanted to sell.
Again, Agent McComas insisted that they saw me at ''all the gun shows,'' and again I told him that I worked for an FFL dealer at gun shows and maybe that's why they see me at every show. Agent McComas again asked if I was working for the FFL dealer, and again I told him I was there for myself. This type of round and round and pointless questioning went on for about another 15 to 20 minutes. At some point I cut off Agent McComas and asked Trooper Ingram what he needed me for. He told me that my driver's license had been suspended and that he needed to issue me a notification of suspension.
Trooper Ingram, Agent McComas, and myself went to my car so I could put a firearm I was carrying into its case, then went with Trooper Ingram to his patrol car. I sat in the front seat of the patrol car as Trooper Ingram wrote up the notification. As he was writing the notification, I asked him what my license had been suspended for. He told me it came up on the computer as a non-traffic suspension and couldn't give me anymore information. This took approximately 30 to 40 minutes. During this time Agent McComas was continuing his line of interrogation, asking me how many guns I owned, when was the last time I purchased a gun, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It had gotten to the point where Trooper Ingram asked Agent McComas if he would stop so that he could finish.
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Trooper Ingram was then able to answer all of my questions as best he could, and then told me it was okay to get out of the patrol car. As I was stepping out of the patrol car, Agent McComas immediately continued with his interrogation, with the same line of questioning as before, over and over. As soon as I received notification for the suspension form—from Trooper Ingram, I told Agent McComas if I wasn't being charged with anything then I must be free to go. I later learned that the suspension of my driver's license was due to an error.
When I got over the initial shock of what had just happened, I went to—I had spoken with Ms. Gelles, and then I went to speak with Mr. Brian Swann, who was the lead agent. When I asked him if I could speak with Agent McComas, I was quite rudely asked, ''What for?'' When I told him that I was considering seeking legal counsel, he responded in a very loud tone, ''What for? We see you at all the gun shows.'' I told him that I thought my rights had been violated and that I might seek legal action.
I had been waiting approximately 10 minutes when both Agent McComas and Agent Swann walked up to me. I asked Agent McComas for his badge number, to which he responded, ''We don't have badges.'' I then asked for contact information from him at the ATF and told him that I may be seeking legal counsel. After some talking between Agent McComas and Agent Swann, they agreed to write down some contact information for themselves. It was about this time that I noticed the shirt Agent McComas was wearing had profanity emblazoned across the back and asked if it was customary for ATF agents to wear profanity while in public where women and children could see it, to which Agent McComas replied, ''It is customary for the ATF to wear anything they want to when they are undercover.'' I told him that I was offended and was sure that there were others who attended the show who were offended also.
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I found this whole incident to be disheartening and rather humiliating. Never in my life have I been made to feel so violated, and this is not a feeling that I will soon forget. I am a law-abiding citizen that has gone through background checks that were approved to be able to work on military installations, a background check that was approved for a Concealed Carry Weapons permit in the State of Virginia, a background check that was approved by the ATF itself to be able to sell firearms for an FFL in the State of Virginia. I am as far from the criminal element as a person can be, and yet I was singled out for harassment by ATF Agent McComas and ATF Agent Swann, who was the lead agent.
Mr. COBLE. If you could wrap up, Mr. Lalime.
Mr. LALIME. I feel that these two agents went far beyond the limitations of their jobs and that they should be under investigation.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Lalime follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF JAMES LALIME
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee. My name is James Lalime of Colonial Heights, Virginia. It is a great honor for me to be here today at this oversight hearing on the Gun Show Enforcement. I am currently employed by a National gun dealer as a salesman and was present at the Richmond Gun Show August 13 thru the 14th, 2005. As an avid gun enthusiast and shooter, I usually attend as many gun shows as I possibly can. I decided to attend the Richmond gun show to see if I could sell a couple of firearms and parts. Had I known what was going to transpire, I would not have attended the show.
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I had been at the gun show for a few hours after selling one antique rifle, a handgun, and a rifle stock. I was looking over some rifle parts at one of the tables, when I was approached by a man who claimed he was an ATF agent, who I later found out was agent Jerad McComas, and a Virginia State Trooper Ingram. At no time did agent McComas show me an identification. Agent McComas said he wished to talk to me and stated that I wasn't being charged with anything, and that he didn't want to make a scene. We, agent McComas, Trooper Ingram, and myself proceeded to walk over to a side by the entrance in the building where the show was being held. Agent McComas again stated that I
was not being charged with anything, but began interrogating me.
The first question agent McComas asked me was, ''We see you at a lot of gun shows, are you in the business of buying and selling firearms?'' To which I answered, ''No sir, these are my personal firearms.'' Again agent McComas said, ''well we see you at every gunshow, are you sure you're not buying and selling guns as a business?'' And again I told him that these were out of my personal collection. To which agent McComas replied, ''Well, because we see you at all the gunshows we think you are, and you should get a business license to do so, it's not that hard!'' When I tried to explain to agent McComas the reason they see me at all the shows, might be because I work for a FFL dealer and work at those shows. Agent McComas replied, ''Are you walking around at gunshows buying and selling guns for the dealer you work for?' I told him no, that I was there for myself, that I had some guns I didn't shoot and wanted to sell. Again agent McComas insisted that they saw me at, ''ALL the gunshows'' And again I told him that I worked for an FFL dealer, at gunshows and maybe that's why they see me at every show. Agent McComas again asked if I was there working for the FFL dealer, and again I told him that I was there for myself. This type of round, and round questioning went on for about another 15–20 minutes. At some point, I cut off agent McComas and asked trooper Ingram what he needed me for. He told me that my drivers license had been suspended, and that he needed to issue me a notification of suspension.
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Trooper Ingram, agent McComas, and myself, went to my car so I could put a firearm I was carrying into it's case, then went with trooper Ingram to his patrol car. I sat in the front seat of the patrol car as Trooper Ingram wrote up the notification. As he was writing the notification, I asked him what my license had been suspended for. He told me it came up on the computer, as a non-traffic suspension, and couldn't give me any more information. This took approximately 30–40 minutes, during this time agent McComas was continuing his line of interrogation. Asking me how many guns I owned, when was the last time I purchased a gun etc., etc., etc. It got to the point where Trooper Ingram asked agent McComas if he would stop for a moment so he could finish. Trooper Ingram was then able to answer all of my question the best he could, then told me it was okay to get out of the patrol car. As I was stepping out of the Patrol car agent McComas immediately continued with his interrogation, with the same line of questioning as before, over and over. As soon as I received the notification of suspension form Trooper Ingram, I told agent McComas if I wasn't being charged with anything then I must be free to go, and left. I later learned that the suspension of my drivers license, was due to a state employees error.
After I got over the initial shock of all that had happened and had time to think about it, I felt my rights had been violated, and was rather perturbed. I spoke briefly with Annette Gelles, then decided to get some information about the agent who interrogated me (agent McComas). I walked back into the gunshow to try and find him without success. I found another ATF agent that I had seen at some other shows, and asked him where I could find someone to speak with. He pointed out his supervisor (agent Brian Swan), and I proceeded to walk over to him. When I got to where agent Swan was standing, he was talking to some other ATF agents, so I waited off to the side for him to finish. When agent Swan was done he asked if he could help me, I told agent Swan I wished to speak to agent McComas. I considered his response of ''What for!''. in a loud tone, to be quite rude. When I told agent Swan I wanted agent McComas' badge number, and contact information, agent Swan again responded in a loud tone, ''What for, we see you at ALL the gunshows!'' I told him that I thought my rights had been violated, and that I might seek legal action. I then told agent Swan that I would wait up at the front entrance, where agent McComas' had interrogated me.
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I had been waiting approximately 10 minutes when both agent McComas, and agent Swan walked up. I then asked agent McComas for his badge number, to which he responded, ''We don't have badges.'' I then asked for contact information from him at the ATF and told him I may be seeking legal counsel. After some talking between agent McComas and agent Swan, they agreed to write down contact information for themselves. It was at about this time I noticed that the shirt agent McComas was wearing had profanity emblazoned across the back, and asked if it was customary for ATF agents to wear profanity in public, where women and children could see it. To which agent McComas replied, ''It's customary for the ATF to wear anything they want to, when they are under-cover.'' I told him that I was offended and was sure that there were others who attended the show who were offended also. Agent McComas' sarcastic response to that was, ''Why don't you have a list!'' I told him I could probably get one, with signatures, in about 20 minutes. Agent McComas then got about an inch from my face and said in a very threatening tone, ''You're really making a big deal out of nothing!'' I then said, ''No sir, I am not.'' He then got closer and said in an even more threatening tone, ''You're really making a big mess out of nothing!'' Again I replied, ''No sir, I am not.'' Agent McComas started to say something else, but agent Swan took agent McComas by the arm, and pulled him away. The last thing agent McComas said to me, was when I was leaving. I had received a call from my wife letting me know she was in the parking lot to drive my car home. As I was walking out, agent McComas was walking in. With a smug look on his face, and in a very sarcastic tone he said, ''Have a nice day.''
I found this whole incident to be disheartening, and rather humiliating. Never in my life have I been made to feel so violated, and this is not a feeling that I'll soon forget. I am a law abiding citizen that has gone through background checks that were approved, to be able to work on military installations. A background check that was approved, for a Concealed Carry Weapon permit. A background check that was approved by the ATF itself, to be able to sell firearms for an FFL in the state of Virginia. I am as far from the criminal element as a person can be, and yet I was singled out for harassment by ATF agent McComas, and ATF agent Swan who was the lead agent. I feel these two agent went far beyond the limitations of their jobs, and should be under investigation.
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Thank you once again for the opportunity to testify.
Mr. COBLE. Thank you, Mr. Lalime.
Ms. McComas, my curiosity prompts this question.
Ms. MCCOMAS. No, no, no. [Laughter.]
Mr. COBLE. I assume that the agent is not known to you, Ms. McComas?
Ms. MCCOMAS. No, sir.
Mr. COBLE. Very well. I breathe easier now.
Ms. MCCOMAS. It's just really bad luck on my part.
Mr. COBLE. I beg your pardon?
Ms. MCCOMAS. It's just really bad luck on my part. [Laughter.]
Mr. COBLE. Mr. White, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN WHITE, JOHN WHITE, OWNER, THE GUNSMITH
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Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. I'm John White. My wife and I own and operate the GunSmith, which is a Federal firearms licensed dealership. We value the ATF being available to us at the gun shows to quickly answer any firearms law questions that come up at the shows. We appreciate the ability to have access to the ATF at the shows and point out suspicious situations as they arise so these situations can immediately and appropriately be investigated.
We have personally enjoyed benefits of the ATF presence at the gun shows because prior to the strong ATF presence, there was a large gang presence at the Richmond shows. We don't want to return to the days where the gangs felt free to mingle with legitimate purchasers, and we credit the ATF with bringing the current business atmosphere to the shows in the Richmond area.
Early activity at the shows was entirely appropriate and within the law. However, it appeared that as time went on, the ATF joined—was joined by personnel from other law enforcement agencies who were outside their span of control. As resources were added, both financial and personnel, the mission and activities seemed to continually expand to try and keep everyone busy.
We think it would be a mistake to remove the ATF presence from the gun shows, especially over this one lapse. We and most of the licensed dealers would much rather be able to work with the ATF than be forced to work around the more unreasonable methods. We would like to see a cooperative relationship with the ATF on criminal history checks and address verifications.
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What we would specifically recommend is:
A detailed action plan for the ATF at each show and a clearer division of labor for outside agencies so that the ATF is not held accountable for the actions of officers over whom they have no control. This plan of action should include that an experienced supervising agent always be present at the show.
There should be more scrutiny and attention given to the parking lots at these gun shows where many gun transactions take place outside of the scrutiny of the gun show and without any criminal history checks or address verification requirements.
There should be greater scrutiny of ''private collection'' dealers within the show who do not have a Federal firearms license. These dealers are also exempt from the criminal background checks/verification and do no paperwork. These private collectors often have suspiciously large revolving stock for a true private collection. Any thinking criminal or straw purchaser is going to buy a gun in a parking lot or from these dealers rather than go through the paperwork.
All the law enforcement agencies should respect the rights and privacy of the majority of the customers who are at the shows for honest purposes. Honest citizens should not be punished for the actions of the few. There should be greater attention paid to enforcing laws without abridging the rights of the many legitimate attendees at the gun shows.
[The prepared statement of Mr. White follows:]
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF JOHN WHITE
Dear Committee Members,
At the Gunsmith, we are fortunate that our livelihood does not depend on gun sales. Our sales philosophy is not to sell at all costs but to provide a quality product for gun collectors, for self-protection and for competition shooters. Typically, the cost of the products we sell prevents our firearms from being attractive to individuals intending to make illegal or illicit purchases. We also spend time talking with our customers about their reasons for purchasing a firearm to make sure that the firearm we sell will suit the intended purchase, ensure they understand how to safely handle their firearm and to offer opportunity for further customization. We rely on repeat business and referrals because we normally cannot compete on price with larger gun dealers who can buy in quantity. What we can offer is quality, a guarantee that what we sell works and the extra customer service that a trained firearms instructor and experienced gunsmith can offer.
We know well the danger of firearms and that the lives we save by not selling for illegal purposes may be our families or our many friends in law enforcement agencies across the country. In 2004, our son was confronted by a burglar in his Richmond rental home. The burglar held in his hand what we think he imagined was a gun that he was stealing from our son's room. What he actually had was a customized paintball gun. Our son chased the burglar until the guidance he received from his many law enforcement relatives kicked in and he stopped and called the Richmond Police Department. Ironically, the first two officers to respond had been co-workers of his parents when they worked at the Richmond Police Department. The officers had seen our son's early years and were now responding to protect him as an adult. Preventing the illegal use of firearms and criminal activity, especially in the Richmond area, is always personal to The GunSmith.
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The GunSmith is owned and operated by two former police officers who value the participation of the ATF in preventing firearms from getting into the hands of criminals. We value the ATF being available to us at the gun shows to quickly answer any firearms law questions that come up at the show. We appreciate the ability to have access to the ATF at the shows to point out suspicious situations as they arise so that these situations can be immediately and appropriately investigated. We have personally enjoyed the benefits of the ATF presence at the gun shows because prior to the strong ATF presence there was a large gang presence at the shows in Richmond. A fellow dealer, with whom we work closely, had two guns stolen as his attention was deliberately distracted with a mock word battle between gang members. Our lives were also threatened by an unhappy customer who threatened that he was ''going to get his posse and come back for us.'' These open displays of gang activity have largely ceased as word has gotten out of the strong ATF presence at the Richmond Gun Shows. We applaud the efforts and intent of the ATF program at the gun shows in the Richmond area and would agree that they could serve as models for other similar programs with a few exceptions.
Early activity at the gun shows was entirely appropriate and within the law, however, it appeared that as time went on, the ATF was joined by personnel from other law enforcement agencies who were outside their span of control. As more resources were added, both financial and personnel, the mission and activities seemed to continually expand to try to keep everyone busy. For example, in the early gun shows, the ATF would observe and interview when activity seemed suspicious. Then home checks were added as more local officers participated with the ATF. Then instead of just address verifications, our customers told us that the officers would interview neighbors and family members about how they felt about this person buying a gun.
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Computerized criminal history check wait times went from 20 minutes to 2–4 hours to overnight or longer. There was a clear pattern that checks on Richmond area gun buyers received the longer wait times while purchasers from out of the area were cleared much more quickly. Yes, sometimes sales were lost because of the long waits and even more sales were lost when neighbors and family members were informed of the buyer's intentions. Our income, fortunately, isn't dependent on gun sales but most of our customers know that we are involved with law enforcement and wanted us to explain why their legal behavior was being reported to their neighbors and family members creating unwanted attention and difficulties.
Our customers questioned the fact that they were subjected to the additional scrutiny and address verification procedures only at gun shows when they could make the same purchase at a gun shop without the additional attention. This might seem reasonable if there was additional probable cause but it is hard to justify when we were making sales to Richmond Police Officers, Federal Prison Guards, US Marshals, military personnel home on leave, local judges, etc. who unfortunately seemed to share one additional characteristic, their ethnicity.
We don't know if the ATF was ever aware of this circumstance but due to the backlogs created by these long waits, many dealers began calling in criminal history checks rather than delivering the paperwork to the on-site State Police personnel. Called-in checks had a much shorter wait time and quickly became the preferred method with many dealers.
We and most of the licensed dealers would much rather be able to work with the ATF than be forced to work around the more unreasonable methods. We would like to see the cooperative relationship with the ATF on criminal history checks and address verifications restored because there is no advantage for any licensed dealer to make an illicit sale. Licensed dealers are subject to additional scrutiny by the ATF both at the shows and at their place of business. An improper sale means a loss of income while a licensed dealer does the mandatory ATF firearms trace and spends time in court testifying because of the improper use of a sold firearm.
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We would also like to see the inordinate attention on purchasers of firearms who happen to be female stopped. Times have changed and the world has changed. As more women have become head of households, entered law enforcement and the military and learned of their many advantages as competition shooters, more women are interested in firearms for the same reason as male purchasers. Unfortunately, many women are not very knowledgeable about firearms and The Gunsmith is somewhat rare at the show because we will take the time to talk to people and counsel them about their firearm choices whether or not they make a purchase from us. Not all women, however, know that we provide this service and rely on others to help them make the best choice and not get taken on price. This is no different than a woman taking a friend to buy a car or get car repairs on any other activity for which they are unsure of their expertise or believe they will be treated more fairly if they are there with a man. The truth is that not just women buy firearms for more than they are worth at a gun show. Gun shows are a business operation and caveat emptor applies. It seems, however, to be the prevailing opinion for law enforcement at the gun show that any woman who brings a male friend for advice or support must be making a straw purchase.
This probably was happening more often when the ATF first began attending the gun shows but the ATF must have missed how successful they have been in shutting down this practice by their presence. The ''profile'' has continued long after the problem, for the most part, has gone. For the Richmond Raceway Show that sparked this hearing, the problem was magnified by the fact that, on Sunday, there were probably almost as many law enforcement officers as customers at the show. If a woman approached a gun table, she was quickly surrounded by undercover officers closely observing her every move. A women was almost guaranteed to rate an interview if she actually purchased or attempted to purchase a gun at that show on Sunday.
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Our observation was that there seemed to be a large group of very young, relatively inexperienced and very energetic law enforcement officers at this show on Sunday who wanted to make a good showing for their supervisors. Having supervised young, enthusiastic officers, we know that, although their intent is good, sometimes when they have too many resources and too much undesignated time, they tend to create things to do and often deviate from action plans. Our impression that this was the case on this fateful August Sunday is further supported by the fact that, according to the information that we received, records and notes from their temporary office at the show were left in a trashcan. Experienced officers would have been far too paranoid to leave records behind and far more polished and discreet in their observation skills. It seemed that on this one day, there was plenty of youthful energy and enthusiasm but adult supervision at the show was lacking.
That being said, we think it would be a mistake to remove the ATF presence from the gun shows especially over this one lapse. We do not want to return to the days where gangs felt free to mingle with legitimate purchasers and we credit the ATF with bringing the current business atmosphere to the shows in the Richmond area.
What we would specifically recommend is:
A detailed action plan for the ATF at each show and a clearer division of labor for outside agencies so that the ATF is not held accountable for the actions of officers over whom they have no control. This action plan should include that an experienced supervising agent is always present at the show.
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There should be more scrutiny and more attention given to the parking lots at these gun shows where many gun transactions take place outside the scrutiny of the gun show and without any criminal history check or address verification requirement.
There should be greater scrutiny of ''private collection'' dealers within the show who do not have a firearms dealer license. These dealers are also exempt from the criminal history or address verification requirement for their sales and these ''private collection'' dealers often have suspiciously large revolving stock for a true private collection. Any thinking criminal or straw purchaser is going to buy a gun in the parking lot or from these dealers and avoid the issue of criminal history checks and address verification all together.
All the law enforcement agencies should respect the rights and privacy of the majority of customers who are at gun shows for honest purposes. Honest citizens should not be punished for the actions of the few. There should be greater attention paid to enforcing the law without abridging the rights of the many legitimate attendees at the gun show.
We know that what we are suggesting are more difficult investigations and cases to pursue but since the ATF has been so successful in eliminating most of the obvious violations from the shows and has access to additional resources and outside agencies willing to help, this would be a major step forward in shutting down any illicit gun sales and purchases occurring at the gun shows and we would greatly appreciate and support their efforts. We look forward to the continuing presence of the ATF at the gun shows and our continued mutual support.
Mr. COBLE. I commend you, Mr. White. You finished well ahead of time.
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Mr. WHITE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. COBLE. Ms. McComas, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF SUZANNE McCOMAS, LICENSED PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, NEW YORK, NY
Ms. MCCOMAS. Thank you, sir. I am Suzanne McComas, a private investigator licensed in New York State. I work on contract for the National Rifle Association——
Mr. COBLE. Is your mike on?
Ms. MCCOMAS. Yes, sir.
Mr. COBLE. Pull it closer.
Ms. MCCOMAS. I'm sorry. I work on contract for the National Rifle Association doing field investigations in cases where they feel there is an issue of an individual's second amendment rights being infringed. To date, I have done over 120 cases for the organization.
The NRA sent me to Richmond, VA, in November to investigate the dozens of complaints they'd received from members who had attended, the dealers at the show, as well as the organizers of the August gun show at the Richmond Raceway. There were complaints about massive law enforcement presence, residency checks, and minority buyers being followed, pulled over, and their legally purchased guns seized without any due process.
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In the particular case of Ikaya Parker and Marcus Holland, Ikaya is a 27-year-old African American lady, a single mother, who works as a mortgage processor. She went to the gun show in December 2004 to buy a small handgun for personal protection. Marcus Holland was a 24-year-old African American young man who's also employed full-time and has a valid Concealed Carry permit from the State of Virginia. So she took him along because he was a knowledgeable gun owner.
After her purchase, during which she did pass a background check, they left the show and were immediately being followed by a police car until they turned on to I-95, where they were pulled over by no less than four police vehicles. They were held on the side of the road for over an hour. The ATF agent told them he had enough evidence to arrest them right then and there for a straw purchase violation, even though both of them were legal gun owners.
Both Ikaya and Marcus had their guns confiscated and were ordered to appear at the ATF office in Richmond the next day.
On Monday, they were there for over an hour of interrogation. They were never read their rights at any point. And they were finally let go and their weapons returned when the agent decided he could not pursue the case.
Ikaya was humiliated and absolutely terrified by what she was accused of, as it could cost her her career in the financial industry and financial stability for she and her daughter.
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I also found four other minority individuals who had similar experiences but, quite frankly, out of fear of retaliation, they cannot bring themselves to go public to this body or anyone else about their treatment by the ATF. No amount of coaxing is going to bring them public.
Just off my written statement, I'd also like to say that they initially did have arrests at the shows that they went to early on, and any good law enforcement officer would know, just as the traffic cop doesn't set up the speed trap at the same place on the same road at the same time day after day, all the speeders know where it is. You need to move your trap. And instead of that, they just stayed in the same place. They had no arrests, no convictions that I'm aware of. Even though we've asked them to produce their conviction rates, we have yet to see evidence of a single conviction from any of the arrests at these shows. Instead, they impacted financially on the organizers. They terrified people. They went to their neighbors and asked them if they knew their next-door neighbor was at the gun show buying a gun. They held up the NICS system in doing background checks, which is a clear violation of the FBI guidelines. They are not to cross over into DOJ work at all.
That didn't seem to deter them whatsoever, and I don't think they would have stopped to this day if somebody hadn't complained to Mr. Scott's office.
During my investigations, we did check gun shows across the country, and we found that in Pittsburgh the Firearms Task Force there that's also implemented by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, and they go knock at the door about a week later and ask you to produce the gun that you bought. There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork, they put you under arrest for straw purchase.
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When I asked them what their criteria—I'm sorry. And when I asked them what their criteria was for the people that they collected the 4473s on at the Pittsburgh show, the answer I got back was, ''If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. That's all we need.'' Translation: ''Under 30 and Black.'' Period. That's all they're looking for. Anyone that meets that criteria, they're doing a follow-up on them. There's absolutely no other rhyme or reason in place for what they're doing.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. McComas follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF SUZANNE MCCOMAS
I am Suzanne McComas, a private investigator licensed from New York State. I work on contract for the National Rifle Association (NRA) doing field investigations in cases where there is an issue of an individuals 2nd Amendment rights being infringed, or someone has been charged with a firearms violation. To date I have done over 120 cases for the organization.
The NRA sent me to Richmond, Virginia to investigate the dozens of complaints they received from members who attended, the dealers at the show, as well as the organizers of the August gun show at the Richmond Raceway. Complaints about massive law enforcement presence, residence checks, and minority buyers being followed, pulled over and their legally purchased guns seized.
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The results of my investigation did validate all the complaints we received, and I appreciate the committee looking into this issue.
Mr. COBLE. Ms. McComas, you referred—you alluded to a ''straw purchase.'' For the record, define a ''straw purchase.''
Ms. MCCOMAS. A ''straw purchase'' would be if Mr. White was illegal to own a firearm, he would give me the money—I'm not saying John would do that. He would give me the money, and I would go buy the gun for him, and then give it to him. So I would mark down on the 4473 that it was for my own use——
Mr. COBLE. I got you.
Ms. MCCOMAS. —and then I would give him the handgun and probably make a couple hundred bucks in the deal.
Mr. COBLE. And I knew that, but I wanted the record to reflect it. The Parker person to whom you referred, without objection, a copy of the affidavit will be made a part of the record, as will four additional statements that will be forthcoming.
Folks, thank you for your testimony. Now, as I said before, there will be a 5:30 vote here. We apply the 5-minute rule to us as well. So if you all could keep your answers tersely, and if we can, we can move along here.
Ms. McComas, I think you indicated that your investigation indicated that no rights were read to anyone whose weapons had been seized. Is that correct?
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Ms. MCCOMAS. Yes, sir. I couldn't find anyone who said their rights had ever been read to them at any point in the process.
Mr. COBLE. In your investigation, were you able to determine whether or not these kinds of practices about which we have just heard were being used in other regions of the country?
Ms. MCCOMAS. I'm going to say no to that because we haven't—as the ATF was saying while they were at the gun show. This is a pilot program that they're going to apply to the rest of the country. That was what they stated to the organizers and to some of the dealers. So I don't believe they've implemented this program yet, but they certainly plan on it. They're using footage that they video'd, their floor work at the Showplace shows as a training video now for their young agents as how to spot a straw purchase at a gun show.
Mr. COBLE. Thank you.
Mr. White, as a former law enforcement officer, do you think the residency checks are a valuable use of resources to deter or discourage straw purchases, ''A''? And, ''B,'' would you expect the police or law enforcement to maintain records of what homes they visited to determine who was eligible to purchase a firearm?
Mr. WHITE. To answer ''A,'' if there's probable cause. If there's no other reason just that I think it's wrong, then, no, I don't agree with the address verification. And, yes, if you do go and verify an address, you should maintain that for future purchases.
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Mr. COBLE. Ms. Gelles, do your gun shows have a history of being connected to straw purchases or a place for a large number of prohibited persons to purchase guns? Is that the sort of reputation you all have?
Ms. GELLES. No, not at all. Actually——
Mr. COBLE. Has the ATF ever furnished you with numbers indicating that firearms purchased at your shows end up or wind up in the use of crime?
Ms. GELLES. Actually, we have asked for those numbers since after the August show, right after it, starting August—September, we started requesting a FOIA presenting those numbers to us, and by our account from the Virginia State Police records, we have four to five arrests a year on average over the last 10 years with 45,000 public, bare minimum, coming in. So it is not a high number of people.
Mr. COBLE. Do you know, Ms. Gelles, whether or not a videotape was made during any of the gun shows?
Ms. GELLES. I know for a fact there was. Cameras placed in the showplace building, Bill Crenshaw, the manager of that building, told us so. We found this out because the ATF sent an agent or somebody from ATF up to the Chantilly building, which is called the Dulles Expo Center, and told that individual that he had the permission of the show promoter, which is C&E Gun Shows, Robert S. Elliot, and he said they had permission, and they absolutely did not have permission. And he said, well, it is—when he was speaking to this manager, he told him that they had already had permission and done it twice at the showplace, at which point we found out that they had actually done it already and had video of the entire public.
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Mr. COBLE. Mr. Lalime, how was this experience different from previous gun shows that you have attended?
Mr. LALIME. Never before had that happened to me. I don't think I had seen it happen to anybody else. I definitely know it had a detrimental effect on the attendance of gun shows. I know personally I wouldn't attend gun shows if I knew that was going to happen.
Mr. COBLE. Thank you, sir.
Ms. Gelles, my amber light is showing. I want to yield to Mr. Scott here. Let me conclude with this question. How many fewer weapons were sold that day as a result of the presence of a good number of law enforcement people?
Ms. GELLES. Well, I would have to suppose that if there were half the public there, then half the number of guns, which would have cost the exhibitors a great deal of money. I mean, my losses were 14,000, bare minimum, one show. Theirs were at least 300,000, probably more. Plus people did not bring in guns because they were afraid to.
Mr. COBLE. And let the record show that I beat the red light. I recognize the distinguished gentleman from Virginia for 5 minutes.
Mr. SCOTT. Ms. Gelles, is Virginia's one-gun-a-month law in effect at a gun show?
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Ms. GELLES. Yes, it is.
Mr. SCOTT. What paperwork needs to be completed to purchase a firearm at a gun show?
Ms. GELLES. People—you go to a dealer and you fill out a Form 4473 and an SP-65, which is the Virginia State Police background check.
Mr. SCOTT. And is there an instantaneous check right there?
Ms. GELLES. Supposed to be. We've experienced very long delays when this residency check process started up, up to 3 hours for residents, people in Richmond, and minorities, and women also.
Mr. SCOTT. What happened? Say that again?
Ms. GELLES. People that were—that lived in Richmond, those—mostly anybody that lived in Richmond had a 3-hour delay or so at the beginning of the residency checks back in May of 2004, and in July of 2004, it speeded up a little more, I think because they had more personnel. But exhibitors complained that—and we observed also that there was profiling of Blacks and also of women.
Mr. SCOTT. Now, you said the dealers have—if you buy from a dealer, you have a background check. If you buy from someone who is not, quote, a dealer, do you have a background check?
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Ms. GELLES. No. There are product sales from individuals to individuals.
Mr. SCOTT. At the gun show?
Ms. GELLES. Right.
Mr. SCOTT. In the gun show, not the parking lot sales.
Ms. GELLES. If I catch one in the parking lot, I run him off or make him come in and buy a table.
Mr. SCOTT. Mr. White, you had indicated that the presence of the ATF has been a positive thing at gun shows. Did I understand you right?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCOTT. And does it help with the parking lot situation? Are they out in the parking lot, too?
Mr. WHITE. I'm inside, sir. I'm not sure what they do in the parking lot. I will say that we had people come in. I've had my life threatened. I've had people get on the phone and call up their boys, if you will, an unhappy purchase, and he was going to call his guys to come straighten things out. But since ATF has been involved in the law enforcement presence there, we haven't had that sort of clientele. So it has been a positive thing.
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Mr. SCOTT. Okay. Ms. McComas, you indicated that many people had a follow-up visit after the gun show and——
Ms. MCCOMAS. In Pittsburgh, that's—yes, sir, they follow up about a week later. In Richmond, they were doing it during the show. They were actually holding the purchase up.
Mr. SCOTT. And you suggested there was racial profiling going on?
Ms. MCCOMAS. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Anyone who was a minority, they picked up their tail, if you will, and just literally followed them through the gun show. When they stopped at a table, the agents would literally stack one side or the other and watch what they were doing. If they started to purchase one, they'd ask them why they were buying it, what were they buying it for, what do you need that gun for?
The one young lady said, ''You know what? I'm out of here. I'll just come back tomorrow,'' and the agent smarted off and said, ''That's fine. We're going to be here tomorrow, too. Come on. Come on back.''
I mean, it was ridiculous. There was absolutely no reason for it except the color of their skin.
Mr. SCOTT. Did you see any Whites subjected to this?
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Ms. MCCOMAS. They did do residency checks on Whites, and the one agent said to one of the dealers, ''Well, we have to do some or we're going to catch flack for what we're doing.'' So, you know, they were trying to cover their—cover their tracks, straight, simple.
Mr. SCOTT. Thank you.
Mr. Lalime, did you ever find out what your suspension was for?
Mr. LALIME. Yes, sir. It was supposedly for back child support, but it was an error in their computer.
Mr. SCOTT. So your license was not under suspension?
Mr. LALIME. No, sir. I had to go back to DMV that following Monday, and I got my license.
Mr. SCOTT. Did DMV, in fact, have your license suspended?
Mr. LALIME. No, sir.
Mr. SCOTT. Well, then, let me ask the question again: Did DMV have your license as under suspension?
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Mr. LALIME. I got it Monday. It wasn't under suspension. I didn't have to pay any kind of fees. I had to pay a $10 lost license. It was supposed to have been in error at the Department of Social Services.
Mr. SCOTT. But the DMV had your license recorded as suspended, although it shouldn't have been suspended.
Mr. LALIME. I guess so, sir, yes.
Mr. SCOTT. Okay. So when the police said it was suspended, it was, in fact, suspended?
Mr. LALIME. Yes, I guess that's the only good thing that came out of what happened. I found that out and was able to correct it.
Mr. SCOTT. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. COBLE. Thank you, Mr. Scott.
The distinguished gentleman from Florida is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. FEENEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Gelles, about how many gun shows a year do you participate in?
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Ms. GELLES. I produce 14, 15 shows—let's see, I'm at 15 now a year.
Mr. FEENEY. Okay. And this was the first experience you've had where ATF and the State Police in a consistent manner you felt were abusive or harassing customers and clientele.
Ms. GELLES. Right. I mean, ATF agents have for years walked through as customers, and I'm sure doing investigations, those kind of things. Virginia State Police, there are always assigned—in the State of Virginia, it's State law that they have to have one person, one Virginia State trooper at the show in case there's any kind of problem with the background check, they can arrest them. And we have—we provide a room and telephone lines and let the Virginia State Police come in and do background checks on site. At most of the shows we have facilities to do it.
Mr. FEENEY. At any of the shows that you have done, other than helping with background checks, are there other problems that either ATF or State police need to deal with? You know, do you tend to have bar fights or riots or, you know, are they just a normal crowd, business type crowd?
Ms. GELLES. Most of my crowd is very clean. They're families. My main customer is a White male in his—a middle-aged White male that's college educated and they're usually from rural areas and they're wealthier than the average citizen.
Mr. FEENEY. But the reason for State Police and ATF, typically, is the reasons that Mr. White has outlined, the advantages of having them on site.
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Ms. GELLES. Right. Now, we don't have gangs congregating in our shows. I am sure anybody who draws 5 to 7,000 people—and one of my shows draws 11,000 people—there are going to be a few people in those shows that are bad apples that need to be policed, no doubt about it, but it's better to do it undercover and do it covertly, than overtly, and scare off the entire public.
Mr. FEENEY. You testified that in your opinion women and minorities were especially profiled by the ATF and State Police.
Ms. GELLES. And that is true. We did observe that, and I had many exhibitors complain about it, and we had public call afterwards and complain about it, and I had e-mails about it. And the racial profiling is certainly important and should be noticed, and also women. I mean, I haven't heard much outcry about that, but the main thinking was that they were purchasing for their felon boyfriend, a straw purchase again.
Mr. FEENEY. The other group that you mentioned being profiled were people in Richmond. I think Mr. White indicated that too. Can you just tell me briefly, is the population at the gun show that day from Richmond disproportionately Black, for example, or women, or other minority, or was this a geographic bias alone, in your opinion?
Ms. GELLES. Some of it was a geographic bias for the Richmond area because I think that's just the way their operation was set up, that they had police to go to those homes——
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Mr. COBLE. Would the gentleman suspend? Repeat that. I didn't hear your question.
Mr. FEENEY. Well, Mr. Chairman, my question was, for example, if the Richmond customers had been disproportionately Black, for example, and Richmond customers were being targeted because of their residency, then that could be a racial profiling effort in and of itself. I guess that was my question.
Ms. GELLES. Actually, most of the people that attend the shows are White.
Mr. FEENEY. Including from Richmond?
Ms. GELLES. Including from Richmond. Richmond is 65 percent Black.
Mr. FEENEY. Your Richmond customers that day were similar to the general profile of your other customers, roughly?
Ms. GELLES. Roughly. Most of the customers are White. We have a small percentage of Blacks that attend. Richmond itself is 65 percent Black, but those were——
Mr. FEENEY. And did anybody mention—Mr. Lalime, I know that we probably don't have any lawyers, let alone civil rights lawyers here, but did anybody mention that it is a Federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights, and, you know, a lot of people—I got friends in the press that read the first amendment and stop. They think the civil rights are over. They never get to the second amendment, but has anybody ever mentioned to the ATF, Mr. Swann or anybody else at the ATF, that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a Federal crime, section 1865?
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Ms. GELLES. We didn't state it quite that way, but we went for three meetings with John Malone, who was the ASAC for the region, which means over Virginia, Maryland and D.C., and we did just that. We said, you know, they're profiling. They can't do this. And the answer was, the problem is 90 percent Black.
Mr. FEENEY. I trust that any of you that have asked for information, including Ms. McComas, from the ATF, none of your requests have been answered? You haven't been given a profile of the people arrested or detained?
Ms. MCCOMAS. No. We haven't been given a conviction rate, which is actually the most important stat. If they're going to spend all this money and manpower, they should have something at the end of it. They should have some convictions, and they haven't been able to show a single one.
Mr. FEENEY. Well, Mr. Chairman, and, Mr. Scott, I would suggest that perhaps we do a letter to the ATF and request this information, because profiling people on their second amendment rights, whether they're women or Black or another protected minority, and a conspiracy to do that, is a very significant allegation, but it's a mere allegation. It's a bare assertion unless we have some evidence.
And with that, I'll yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. COBLE. If the gentleman will suspend, we have done that, and the ATF will appear before us at the conclusion of the President's Day work period. I thank the gentleman.
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We've been joined by the gentlelady from Texas. Good to have you with us, Sheila.
And in order of appearance, the distinguished from Massachusetts is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. DELAHUNT. I thank the Chairman, and I didn't intend to stay for this hearing, but I find it rather fascinating.
Ms. McComas, these must be the dumbest ATF agents in the entire agency.
Ms. MCCOMAS. You just want to shake them and say, ''Go out and get some real criminals.''
Mr. DELAHUNT. I mean I'm not saying I disbelieve you, but I am absolutely shocked that they could be that stupid to articulate—you know, it's almost to the point where it's difficult to believe. In my former career I was a prosecutor in the greater Boston area, and my office worked well with the ATF. In fact, we served on a variety of task forces, and let me be very clear, I have never heard of an experience like the one that you recount, but you all seem to be in agreement. It's just mind boggling.
And I just heard the Chairman indicate that we would have testimony from the ATF. I'm only—I should express my disappointment to the Chair and to the Ranking Member, because what will happen is that your testimony is very, very similar, and I only wish that we had a representative from the ATF here to listen to what you say, and to respond, either to deny, or explain, or have an opportunity, rather than have a bifurcated series of hearings.
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But, again, my own experience is such that I would conclude, if I didn't hear you, that this is just a story, it's made up. But, obviously, you're under oath and I accept what you say as being—but this has to be an aberration.
Ms. MCCOMAS. I've worked with some excellent ATF agents. I honestly have. There are some of them that I have genuine respect for. This was not down to the field agents, let's make that clear. Whoever was running the show was overboard.
Mr. DELAHUNT. Are we speaking about one particular incident?
Ms. MCCOMAS. Well, the Richmond Gun Show sting went on for 16 months total, but——
Mr. DELAHUNT. I mean I have no problems with a sting, but I think you, or maybe it was Ms. Gelles that indicated a good sting is going to be done in a way that is covert, that, you know, no one will be aware of it until the end of—till the conclusion of the investigation. I mean this is not a sting. This is—you know, I could also see having presence at a gun show, simply to serve as deterrence to those who might want to circumvent the laws. Having police presence, obviously, does play—can play a positive role if done in such a way with respect for those who are in compliance with the law is demonstrated.
You know, I read the testimony while we were waiting here, from Mr. White, and there seems—let me direct a few questions at Mr. White so I just don't keep rambling on here.
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You indicate that there was a display of gang activity that largely seems to have ceased as a result of ATF presence. Am I——
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir, in the beginning——
Mr. DELAHUNT. So it does have a positive impact.
Mr. WHITE. When it's regulated and when it's done properly with probable cause. The gang problem has pretty much disappeared. The problem of every woman that makes a purchase, every woman that comes to my table to buy a gun is automatically a straw purchaser. I sell custom firearms, target weapons, tactical weapons, and we set and speak with these people, talk to the ladies, and, you know, find what they're actually doing with them, what we need to fit them with. But every woman who shows up is automatically a straw purchase.
That date in August, if a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement, not just ATF, but other agencies were involved in that too. And if the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they'd have bumped into each other. I mean their surveillance methods were pitiful.
Mr. DELAHUNT. But what we're talking about here is enforcement. You know, I'm not saying that this is an unimportant issue because there are rights that are at stake here. Yet, at the same time, you know, we have a responsibility on this Committee and on the full Committee that deals with a wide array of issues. You should have been here this morning. It was a rather interesting discussion about those that, if you will, advocate for aggressive oversight, and those that don't.
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I believe in aggressive oversight to ensure individual liberties, but at the same time, I'd like to just know if this is an aberrational situation.
But while I'm here, I come from a different part of the country, the Northeast. I think you can probably guess that we have different State policies in terms of gun issues, and I think that's true of most large urban centers. You know, I want more ATF agents up in Massachusetts. Bring them on, because they can make a difference in terms of our homicide rates, and they have, and we're rather stringent and strict in terms of the issues of guns.
Let me direct this to Mr. White. Again, having read your statement, I would infer that you support the background check rules. You would require them for unlicensed sellers as well. Is that a fair conclusion?
Mr. WHITE. I think there needs to be more scrutiny on the people that come in with a private collection. I've seen private collections grow. These guys are buying guns from individuals and putting them right back out for sale. To me, that's not a private collection. I think there needs to be more scrutiny on that because there is no paperwork done there. As a Federal firearms dealer I'm required to do paperwork, maintain the paperwork, and any time a weapon that I've sold is involved in any sort of crime and ends up in any police evidence room, I get an ATF trace, which I've only had one in the years I've been in business. I get an ATF trace, and I have to say who that gun was sold to.
So we don't want to sell guns to people that they don't belong with. Certainly, I want to keep them out of those hands because my friends and family are out there on the street. I don't want guns getting in the wrong——
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Mr. DELAHUNT. See, I have a particular concern about gun shows, not that they can't be run well and done in compliance with the law, but I certainly don't want any of, you know, the criminal element from Massachusetts coming down to Richmond and getting out in the parking lot and buying a gun and coming back up to Boston.
Mr. COBLE. Mr. Delahunt, I don't want to cut you off, but we need to hear from——
Mr. DELAHUNT. I'll yield back, and I know we have some——
Mr. COBLE. We have a vote at 5:30, but, Ms. Jackson Lee, before I recognize you, if I may——
Mr. DELAHUNT. Can I just have one—is there anybody from the ATF here?
[No response.]
Mr. COBLE. Well, before I recognize Ms. Jackson Lee, folks, I want to reiterate what I said at the outset. I don't want anybody to leave here thinking that it's time to disarm or decommission the ATF. The ATF serves a good purpose, and we will hear from them subsequently. We have some of the questions that they asked to be voiced today have been voiced. I want to ask you one more. And if you all have questions you want us to ask the ATF, we'd be glad to hear from you within the next 7 days, during which time this record will remain open.
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But I want to urge all of you folks, don't leave this hearing room thinking that the ATF is a bunch of no good so-and-so's because they do serve a good purpose.
Now, what I've heard today in the case is that maybe they went beyond the pale, but we'll hear from them when they have their day before this Subcommittee as well.
I'm now pleased to recognize the gentlelady from Texas, Ms. Jackson Lee.
Mr. Delahunt, if you wait, if we meet the 5:30 deadline, if you want to continue your questioning, you may do so.
Mr. DELAHUNT. [Off microphone comment.]
Mr. COBLE. All right, thank you, sir.
The gentlelady from Texas.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. But he hasn't run out of steam. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and to the Ranking Member for an important Committee hearing. I might track Mr. Delahunt's outrage, but also suggest—I know I have a good friend from North Carolina—I might be able to convince him. We were here just a few hours ago talking about the overreach of the Federal Government and the need for oversight and investigation. With this hearing as a backdrop, let's hope that we can secure both a bipartisan effort in making sure that things work, and that we exercise our oversight.
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So I want to thank Mr. Scott for bringing this matter to our attention. I know that it occurred in his jurisdiction and he should be complimented and applauded.
I would like to put it, however, in the context that you've come to us, so that we can fix whatever the elements are that take away from Project Exile, which is a project that has been supported by the majority in this Congress, which happen to be my Republican friends, and I think it's important to emphasize that it's the concept, Mr. White, of a joint task force, where, of course, you have local law enforcement inviting the ATF officers in, and I also think it's important to note that the record shows, or my facts are showing me that there were only about 6 to 8 ATF officers and the rest were all local law enforcement.
So the next step that I would like, or at least I would like to add, let us try to make sure that that task force works well, and who am I to tell local law enforcement that they need 40 versus 20, but that may be a reasonable response to draw in the excessiveness or the appearances of such.
Might I also say that race permeates society, and I am as much in consternation over racial profiling on buses and trains and planes and on highways, and I would welcome the support of many of you on some extra work that we have to do, which includes passing hate crimes legislation that may help us on that idea, but certainly I know that we can have sufficient oversight with the ATF, that that would not be the mode of their operation. So I will join you in that concern and work with our Committee to ensure that that happens.
Let me just offer some thoughts, and I would like to pursue a line of questioning that Mr. Delahunt—but let me quickly, Ms. Gelles, you—is it Gelles?
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Ms. GELLES. Yes, it is Gelles.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. That having been the gun show operator, I'm sure that you see a lot of different scenes and populations, and so I would ask whether or not you have seen, or do you believe that there is significant criminal activity that occurs at gun shows in the Richmond area?
Ms. GELLES. No, I don't think there's a lot of criminal activity. I know that you'll see some people walk in that will have gang looking clothes on and that kind of things. I actually hire two Henrico County Police to sit at the front to deter this kind of person from coming in. I tell them to follow them through, make them feel unwelcome. The Virginia State Police is there. They also do the background check. There are not a large number of gang people that congregate in these shows, so I don't believe that's the case.
I think that we need some policing. I don't think ATF is all bad at all. I think that we do need them because we can't police ourselves. When we have a problem, we need them there to take care of it. But most of the time, no, it is not a large amount of those people.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Let me just say that I just came from a Homeland Security hearing where intelligence is very important. And one of the things that we've discovered, that everyone who is in the business of doing wrong doesn't necessarily look that way. And I want to applaud you for, you know, keeping a clean shop.
But let me put this on the record, to say to you that you did say no, but you might be surprised to find out that because of the law enforcement activities of ATF and the Virginia State Police at the Richmond area gun shows, during 2004 and 2005, 25 criminal cases were recommended for prosecution for violations of Federal law. The ATF reports that these cases have resulted in the conviction of 19 defendants so far, and the convictions were such crimes as possession of firearms in relation to a crime of violence or drug trafficking, 18 USC section 922; possession of firearms by a convicted felon and possession with intent to distribute a controlled substance. So ATF has also told this Subcommittee that since May 2004, firearms used in four homicides have been linked to two transactions occurring at Richmond area gun shows.
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So my point is, is that I buy into what you're saying, let's help fix it, but this is an effective program. Let's help them not do some of the things that both of us would find outrageous, but there have been notations of criminal activity, and in fact, there have been conditions.
And I'd ask indulgence of an additional minute to ask Mr. White, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. COBLE. Without objection.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. White, and thank you, Ms. Gelles, very much for your——
With a little bit of humor, Mr. White, this hasn't been a good week for guns. I'm from Texas, so you know we've had some missed shots, and quail, and misidentification of individuals that have unfortunately been at the wrong end of a barrel.
Mr. WHITE. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. But I do understand the value of business and doing things the right way. You have made a point that I think is very important in pursuing because it's the gun show loophole, and you have the Federal documentation, Federal paperwork. I assume you're still in business.
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Mr. WHITE. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. So why don't you just expand on this question of, do you think that all gun buyers at gun shows should undergo background checks regardless of whether they're buying from licensed or unlicensed sellers, and would you support legislation requiring such checks at gun shows? Now, you know, legislation is a heady word, so why don't I just focus you on the value of undergoing it, and you could put in a personal experience, that you are still functioning, you're still standing, you're still selling, I hope, and you're still doing it the legal way. Mr. White.
Mr. WHITE. You know, there is—there are dealers there that are not dealers. There are people there that sell their private collections. There are no—they don't even get a driver's license number. They don't know who they sold the gun to. Once the gun's gone, it's gone. You don't know where it went.
We do the paperwork. Yes, our business does very well. You know, I've had many young men, Black men and whatever, come in dressed like gang members, and I sit there and talk to them. I'm not in such a hurry to make money. My income doesn't depend on my business. And I sit there and talk to the young man and find out that one these guys was military. The kid just got home from Iraq. He just wanted to dress like the rest of the guys and fit in. He didn't want to be the military guy. He wanted to look like everybody else. And in talking with him, I felt very comfortable selling this young man a gun. There are others that have come in that I've felt very uncomfortable and said, ''No, thank you. Leave. I'm not going to sell you a gun. I don't have to.''
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But I do feel like there should be more scrutiny paid to these, you know, things that take place in the parking lot, which is—that's out of the promoter's control, and inside, I really think there should be some at least identification as to what firearm you sold and where it went.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. So if we took your good advice and designed some legislation that closes that loophole, that would be a credible approach to take to include the guys, if you will, out in the parking lot and elsewhere that may not have the scrutiny, intent that you have, the good intent that you have?
Mr. WHITE. I'm not exactly sure how you'd do that, but, yes, ma'am, I think it would made a difference.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. And my final point is that you found that the ATF can work comfortably in these situations, but any oversight we give to them would be welcome as well.
Mr. WHITE. Yes, ma'am. I think that—and I put in my statement—that there needs to be a clear plan of action. There needs to be a operational plan, and the operational plan needs to include what the outside agencies are going to do. I've supervised young police officers, and I know how they get. You get a whole bunch of them, they want—they're busy. They want something to do, so they begin to expand outside of the operational plan. This supervisor's paying attention to this group, and you've got all these other guys doing other things. When you have 60 guys to supervise, and there's six ATF agents, that's a little impossible.
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Mr. COBLE. The gentlelady's time has expired.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. I thank Mr. White, and I thank you for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. COBLE. Mr. White, finally, since you did not consume all of your 5 minutes, I'm going to extend what Ms. Jackson Lee was pursuing, and I think you may have already answered it, and my question to you is, in your opinion, as a former law enforcement officer, is it your belief that there was adequate supervision over the agents who were at the show?
Mr. WHITE. At the one at the raceway, the one in August? Is that the——
Mr. COBLE. Yeah.
Mr. WHITE. No, sir. I think there was a lack of supervision. There were a lot of young officers there, and I don't think there was enough supervision. That's why they got in the trouble they were in.
Mr. COBLE. What I suggest to you all, if you have questions to for us to put to ATF, let us know in the 7-day period.
Now, here is another question, the final question that was requested that I put to you all by the ATF, and I want to direct it to Ms. Gelles. Ms. Gelles, I am told that you and other gun show promoters recently participated in what was a productive meeting, I'm told, with senior ATF officials. If you will, share with us some of those agreements that were reached with the ATF, and about any initiatives on which you and your colleagues will be partnering with ATF in the future.
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Ms. GELLES. We discussed the residency check, and Michael Bouchard, in that meeting, said that they would continue residency checks with probable cause. That's my understanding, that they are not going to continue the residency check as a blanket kind of effort at the shows. In other words, every individual that comes in the show is not going to have a residency check performed on him. Also, I guess that's all we actually covered in that meeting.
Mr. COBLE. Do you feel that it was productive?
Ms. GELLES. It was somewhat productive. I would like to see the conviction rates from May of 2004 till now. Ms. Jackson brought up that there were 56 arrests or 56 charges, I believe. We'd like to see how many convictions actually came out of that, and we'd like you all to get the FOIA or that information the best you can from ATF. 56 out of—since May of 2004, we pulled 45,000 people through that. That would be—56 charges would be .001 percent, so that's not really good use of money and law enforcement's valuable resources. I don't think you need 450 law enforcement assigned to a single little show like that.
Mr. COBLE. I think this has been a productive hearing. Mr. Scott, again, I thank you for working with our staff on this. As I said to you all earlier, the ATF will be before us on February the 28th, so that's for your information.
And I want to repeat again, folks, we're not here to buggy whip the ATF, but we want to examine all relevant evidence, which I think we've done at least partially today, and we will await the ATF's appearance.
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Ms. JACKSON LEE. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. COBLE. Yes?
Ms. JACKSON LEE. I'd ask unanimous consent to put the rest of my questions, written questions into the record, and ask for the ability of the witnesses to provide answers.
Mr. COBLE. Without objection, that will be done.
Ms. JACKSON LEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. COBLE. And we want to thank the witnesses, and those in the audience as well, for your attendance today and for the testimony presented. In order to ensure a full record and adequate consideration of this important issue, the record will remain open for additional submissions for a 7-day period. Any written questions from any Member of the Subcommittee to submit to you all, must also be submitted within that 7-day period.
This concludes the oversight hearing on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives: Gun Show Enforcement (Part I).
Thank you for your cooperation, and the Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 5:24 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES (BATFE): GUN SHOW ENFORCEMENT
(Part II)
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2006
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,
and Homeland Security
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:31 p.m., in Room 2237, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Tom Feeney (acting Chair of the Subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. FEENEY. The hearing will come to order. If the witnesses can take their seats, please. Thank you for being with us today. We will hope that we're joined by some of our colleagues. Chairman Coble will be here briefly, but in the meantime Congressman Scott and I will proceed, and again we thank you for your participation.
Today the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrori