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1998

THE OKLAHOMA CITY NATIONAL MEMORIAL

HEARING

before the

SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS AND PUBLIC LANDS

of the

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

on

H.R. 1849

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TO ESTABLISH THE OKLAHOMA CITY NATIONAL MEMORIAL AS A UNIT OF THE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM, TO DESIGNATE THE OKLAHOMA CITY TRUST, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

SEPTEMBER 9, 1997, WASINGTON, DC

Serial No. 105–55

Printed for the use of the Committee on Resources

COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES

DON YOUNG, Alaska, Chairman

W.J. (BILLY) TAUZIN, Louisiana
JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah
JIM SAXTON, New Jersey
ELTON GALLEGLY, California
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee
JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado
JOHN T. DOOLITTLE, California
WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland
KEN CALVERT, California
RICHARD W. POMBO, California
BARBARA CUBIN, Wyoming
HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho
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LINDA SMITH, Washington
GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California
WALTER B. JONES, Jr., North Carolina
WILLIAM M. (MAC) THORNBERRY, Texas
JOHN SHADEGG, Arizona
JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada
ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon
CHRIS CANNON, Utah
KEVIN BRADY, Texas
JOHN PETERSON, Pennsylvania
RICK HILL, Montana
BOB SCHAFFER, Colorado
JIM GIBBONS, Nevada
MICHAEL D. CRAPO, Idaho

GEORGE MILLER, California
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia
BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota
DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan
PETER A. DeFAZIO, Oregon
ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American Samoa
NEIL ABERCROMBIE, Hawaii
SOLOMON P. ORTIZ, Texas
OWEN B. PICKETT, Virginia
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FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
CALVIN M. DOOLEY, California
CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELÓ, Puerto Rico
MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York
ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam
SAM FARR, California
PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island
ADAM SMITH, Washington
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
CHRIS JOHN, Louisiana
DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin Islands
RON KIND, Wisconsin
LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas

LLOYD A. JONES, Chief of Staff
ELIZABETH MEGGINSON, Chief Counsel
CHRISTINE KENNEDY, Chief Clerk/Administrator
JOHN LAWRENCE, Democratic Staff Director

Subcommittee on National Parks and Public Lands
JAMES V. HANSEN, Utah, Chairman

ELTON, GALLEGLY, California
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee
JOEL HEFLEY, Colorado
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WAYNE T. GILCHREST, Maryland
RICHARD W. POMBO, California
HELEN CHENOWETH, Idaho
LINDA SMITH, Washington
GEORGE P. RADANOVICH, California
WALTER B. JONES, Jr., North Carolina
JOHN B. SHADEGG, Arizona
JOHN E. ENSIGN, Nevada
ROBERT F. SMITH, Oregon
RICK HILL, Montana
JIM GIBBONS, Nevada

ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American Samoa
EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts
NICK J. RAHALL II, West Virginia
BRUCE F. VENTO, Minnesota
DALE E. KILDEE, Michigan
FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
CARLOS A. ROMERO-BARCELÓ, Puerto Rico
MAURICE D. HINCHEY, New York
ROBERT A. UNDERWOOD, Guam
PATRICK J. KENNEDY, Rhode Island
WILLIAM D. DELAHUNT, Massachusetts
DONNA CHRISTIAN-GREEN, Virgin Islands
RON KIND, Wisconsin
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LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
ALLEN FREEMYER, Counsel
P. DANIEL SMITH, Professional Staff
LIZ BIRNBAUM, Democratic Counsel

C O N T E N T S

    Hearing held September 9, 1997

Statements of Members:
Chenoweth, Hon. Helen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Idaho, prepared statement of
Faleomavaega, Hon. Eni F.H., a Delegate in Congress from American Samoa
Prepared statement of
Hansen, Hon. James V., a Representative in Congress from the State of Utah
Prepared statement of
Istook, Hon. Ernest J., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Oklahoma
Prepared statement of
Lucas, Hon. Frank, a Representative in Congress from the State of Oklahoma
Prepared statement of
Watts, Hon. J. C., Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Oklahoma, prepared statement of

Statements of witnesses:
Butzer, Hans E., Designer, Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation Design Team
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Prepared statement of
Finnerty, Maureen, Associate Director for Park Operations and Education, National Park Service
Prepared statement of
Johnson, Robert M., Chairman, Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation
Prepared statement of
Inhofe, Hon. James M., a Senator in Congress from the State of Oklahoma, prepared statement of
Keating, Governor Frank, a State Senator from Oklahoma, prepared statement of
Marrs, Gary B., Fire Chief, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Prepared statement of
Norick, Ronald J., Mayor, Oklahoma City
Prepared statement of
Pouland, John, Regional Administrator, Region 7, General Services Administration
Prepared statement of
Rogers, Don, Former Building Manager, A.P. Murrah Federal Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Prepared statement of
Welch, Emmett E. ''Bud'', Resident, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Prepared statement of

Additional material supplied:
Letter of Understanding
Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task Force, Memorial Mission Statement
Text of H.R. 1849
The Oklahoma City National Memorial

HEARING ON: H.R. 1849, TO ESTABLISH THE OKLAHOMA CITY NATIONAL MEMORIAL AS A UNIT OF THE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM, TO DESIGNATE THE OKLAHOMA CITY TRUST, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES
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TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1997
House of Representatives, Subcommittee on National Parks and Public Lands, Committee on Resources, Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m. in room 1324, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. James V. Hansen (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JAMES V. HANSEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF UTAH
    Mr. HANSEN. Good Morning. The Subcommittee on National Parks and Public Lands will come to order.
    Today we will receive testimony on H.R. 1849, The Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997. The bill was introduced in the House of Representatives by our colleague, Mr. Lucas of Oklahoma, to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System, to designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, and for other purposes.
    H.R. 1849 recognizes the national impact and importance of the horrible act of domestic terrorism that occurred on April 19, 1995, the bombing and destruction of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, resulting in the deaths of 168 men, women, and children. The incident and its aftermath brought the Nation together to respond to this assault on our governmental institutions and our people, but particularly to mourn with the thousands of families in Oklahoma City that were directly affected by the deaths of these 168 individuals, the injuries to hundreds of others who survived the blast, and the concerns of the entire Federal work force who felt they might still be targets in random terrorist attacks.
    [Bill H.R. 1849 may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. HANSEN. Today, we will hear testimony that will reaffirm the American Spirit. We will witness the courage of individuals directly affected by this tragedy, and be inspired by the approach that the citizens of Oklahoma have undertaken to encourage the passage of this legislation we are considering.
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    There are many things of importance to say about this legislation, and as this hearing progresses this morning our distinguished witnesses will convey the need for this Oklahoma City National Memorial. Significantly, the Memorial Mission Statement, developed by the 350-member Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task Force, will serve as the cornerstone to this hearing, and to the eventual dedication of the Oklahoma City National Memorial. It states, ''We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave here know the impact of violence. May this Memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.''
    We are aware that the National Park Service now supports the establishment of the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System, but continues to have strong reservations about the establishment of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust. This Subcommittee is interested in assuring that this partnership among the Federal, state, and local governments and the private sector is fostered. This approach to funding, administration, and interpretation of the Oklahoma City National Memorial may well be a future model for the addition of some units to the National Park System. The Subcommittee is encouraged to know that the National Park Service and the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation have discussed the possibility of signing a Cooperative Agreement to carry out the intent of H.R. 1849.
    I look forward to the testimony we will receive this morning. I will recognize Mr. Lucas as the first witness, after members of the Subcommittee have been recognized for any opening statements they may have.
    I recognize Mr. Faleomavaega, my distinguished colleague, the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee.
    [The statement of Mr. Hansen follows:]
STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES V. HANSEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF UTAH
    Good Morning. The Subcommittee on National Parks and Public Lands will come to order.
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    Today we will receive testimony on H.R. 1849, The Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997. The bill was introduced in the House of Representatives by our colleague, Mr. Lucas of Oklahoma, to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System, to designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, and for other purposes.
    H.R. 1849 recognizes the national impact and importance of the horrible act of domestic terrorism that occurred on April 19, 1995; the bombing and destruction of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, resulting in the deaths of 168 men, women, and children. The incident and its aftermath brought the Nation together to respond to this assault on our governmental institutions and our people, but particularly to mourn with the thousands of families in Oklahoma City that were directly affected by the deaths of these 168 individuals, the injuries to hundreds of others who survived the blast, and the concerns of the entire Federal work force who felt they might still be targets in random terrorist attacks.
    Today, we will hear testimony that will reaffirm the American Spirit. We will witness the courage of individuals directly affected by this tragedy, and be inspired by the approach that the citizens of Oklahoma have undertaken to encourage the passage of this legislation we are considering.
    There are many things of importance to say about this legislation, and as this hearing progresses this morning our distinguished witnesses will convey the need for this Oklahoma City National Memorial. Significantly, the Memorial Mission Statement, developed by the 350-member Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task Force, will serve as the cornerstone to this hearing, and to the eventual dedication of the Oklahoma City National Memorial. It states, ''We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave here know the impact of violence. May this memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.''
    We are aware that the National Park Service now supports the establishment of the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System, but continues to have strong reservations about the establishment of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust. This Subcommittee is interested in assuring that this partnership among the Federal, state, and local governments and the private sector is fostered. This approach to funding, administration, and interpretation of the Oklahoma City National Memorial may well be a future model for the addition of some units to the National Park System. The Subcommittee is encouraged to know that the National Park Service and the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation have discussed the possibility of signing a Cooperative Agreement to carry out the intent of H.R. 1849.
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    We look forward to the testimony we will receive this morning. I will recognize Mr. Lucas as the first witness, after members of the Subcommittee have been recognized for any opening remarks.
    I recognize Mr. Faleomavaega, my distinguished colleague, the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee.

STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, A DELEGATE IN CONGRESS FROM AMERICAN SAMOA
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, and Members of our Subcommittee, along with the rest of the world, I stood in shocked silence on April 19, 1995, as I watched the TV news accounts of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. My first thoughts were for all the people in the building. At first, I saw people streaming out with little more than scrapes and bruises, thinking maybe the building was empty, or maybe the children in the day care center were at a city park far away. But seeing the destruction, my mind knew of the carnage that would be. The building was filled with people and about 168 innocent victims lost their lives. Just as we were trying to grasp the tragedy before us, we were forced to face the realization that this horrendous act was carried out by an American and the victims selected solely because they worked for the Federal Government.
    Mr. Chairman, this incident in Oklahoma City also demonstrated another forum of ugliness in our society today. The media was on a feeding frenzy and our investigative organizations immediately started targeting the homes and residences of Americans who happened to be of Arab descent. To think that any act of terrorism is to be associated with the Arab community is wrong. We should always guard against this kind of stereotyping and generalization.
    Mr. Chairman, my thoughts were then and continue to be with the families and friends of those killed or wounded in the blast. To lose a loved one under any circumstance is painful, but to have it happen through such a random and cowardice act must be almost unbearable. It is, therefore, extremely appropriate that a memorial be established at the scene of the attack and supported by the Federal Government.
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    Mr. Chairman, in the interests of time, I would like to submit the remainder of my statement. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses, especially the gentleman from Oklahoma, my good friends and colleagues, Congressman Istook, who will be testifying this morning.
    [The statement of Mr. Faleomavaega follows:]

STATEMENT OF HON. ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, A DELEGATE IN CONGRESS FROM THE TERRITORY OF AMERICAN SAMOA
    Mr. Chairman, and Members of our Subcommittee, along with the rest of the world, I stood in shocked silence on April 19, 1995 as I watched the TV news accounts of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. My first thoughts were for all the people in the building. At first, I saw people streaming out with little more than scrapes and bruises, thinking maybe the building was empty, or maybe the children in the day care center were at a city park far away. But seeing the destruction, my mind knew of the carnage that would be. The building was filled with people and 168 innocent victims lost their lives. Just as we were trying to grasp the tragedy before us, we were forced to face the realization that this horrendous act was carried out by an American and the victims selected solely because they worked for the Federal Government.
    Mr. Chairman, this incident in Oklahoma City also demonstrated another forum of ugliness in our society today. The media was on a feeding frenzy and our investigative organizations immediately started targeting the homes and residences of Americans who are of Arab descent. To think that any act of terrorism is to be associated with the Arab community is wrong, and we should always guard against this kind of stereotyping and generalizations.
    My thoughts were then and continue to be with the families and friends of those killed or wounded in the blast. To lose a loved one under any circumstance is painful but to have it happen through such a random and cowardice act must be almost unbearable. It is, therefore, extremely appropriate that a memorial be established at the scene of the attack and supported by the Federal Government.
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    I agree with the recommended themes developed by the memorial task force which spent a year talking and listening to people about a fitting memorial site. As recommended, the site should be a place of remembrance of both victims and survivors as individuals. It should bring peace to the visitor along with spirituality and hope. The cherished children need their own place within the memorial designed for their size and their ability to learn. Further, the memorial should be as a comfort to any visitor, and provide recognition for all those who responded to help those in need. Finally, the memorial needs to be a place of learning for all who visit so the tragedy is never to be forgotten.
    I want to welcome our colleagues who have come here to testify this morning including Frank Lucas who introduced the bill and Jim Inhofe and Ernest Istook who are here to speak about the legislation. I further welcome all the witnesses and especially those who traveled here from Oklahoma to be with us.
    Earlier this summer President Clinton congratulated Hans and Torrey Butzer on their winning design for the memorial. I look forward to hearing from them as well.
    It is clear that the intention is for this legislation to move swiftly through the house. A similar bill has already passed the Senate. I have been notified that this bill is already scheduled for full Committee mark up tomorrow. I support this memorial but would caution against allowing our support for creating a proper memorial causing us to pass a bill in haste. I think it is important to listen to the witnesses today and see what suggestions they may have to make creation and management of the memorial as easy as possible. This important legislation should set up a process whereby both Federal and local interests work together to ensure a successful memorial. It is up to us to make sure that the implementation legislation is correct. It would be a disservice to all those who suffered loss at the Murrah Building to do anything less.
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    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses.

    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. We have a vote on the floor. Let me recognize Mr. Hefley, and following his remarks it would be my suggestion that we stand in recess for a brief time while we vote and then come back and will take the witnesses as soon as possible. Mr. Hefley?
    Mr. HEFLEY. Mr. Chairman, I do not have any prepared remarks, but let me just say this. As Mr. Istook and Mr. Lucas know, I am from Oklahoma City. My home is in Oklahoma City and my family is in Oklahoma City.
    I felt particularly keenly about this particular act of terrorism because I do not think I have a family member or a friend in Oklahoma that was not directly and personally affected by this. They either had—my mother-in-law had a friend who sang with her in the church choir—or they had a relative. Our farmer friend from—Oklahoma had a neighbor who had gone down just to check his Social Security that morning.
    I was affected very personally by this. I was on the grounds in front of the Murrah Building shortly after the blast. I just happened to go down that way. I used to work out at the Y right across the street that had the boarded-up windows from the blast. And to look at that building firsthand after the blast, it was much worse, as all of you who were there, I know. They even depicted it on television—it was a horror scene on television.
    So, I think a memorial is perfectly appropriate, and I look forward to us planning together what kind of a memorial this should be. I do have some questions about how it—I hope the witnesses will provide those answers. For instance, are we going to put a unit of the Park System there with personnel? Or this a cooperative relationship where Oklahoma would handle the day-to-day management of it? Those kind of questions I hope will be answered. But I am fully in tune with the idea that there ought to be some kind of a memorial so that we never forget this and so that the horrors of it will be brought home to people, and it may help to deter. I do not know. But I look forward to this hearing.
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    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. We will stand in recess briefly. We urge members to vote and hurry back and we will go to the witnesses.
    [Recess.]
    Mr. HANSEN. The hearing will come to order. Our first witness is the Honorable Frank Lucas, who is chief sponsor of the bill.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE FRANK LUCAS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member and Members of the Committee, for the opportunity to testify today before you regarding H.R. 1849, the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997.
    Certainly the losses and struggles that resulted that day on April 19, 1995, the explosion in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, they resulted from a public attack that was shared by the heartland community, the Nation and, I believe, the world.
    My office was less than a block and a half away from that ill-fated building. Certainly it is both gratifying and a bit disheartening to realize that much of my legislative agenda during my short career here in the U.S. House has been shaped by such an evil act, and that certainly is what brings me here today.
    Given, I believe, the national and international impact and reaction, the Federal character of the site of the bombing, the significant percentage of the victims and survivors who were Federal employees, a National Memorial designation is highly appropriate. The Memorial Foundation, as I understand it, in this bill will not accept a penny of Federal funding unless it is matched dollar for dollar by private donations. The Foundation is asking for a one-time appropriation of $5 million.
    I think that it is important to recognize the unique significance of this memorial. This National Memorial will be one of the few memorials that memorializes and honors not only those who died but those who are still living. And certainly a memorial honoring the living brings a unique set of circumstances in determining how the site should be properly planned and interpreted while ensuring the wishes of those still living in Oklahoma City.
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    Directed by the President, this legislation presented before you today creates a workable balance between the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust and the National Park Service. Both the National Park Service and non-Park Service personnel will staff the grounds. All public comment, policy planning and design issues will be made by the members of the board of directors of the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust, which will be established by the legislation.
    I believe that it has always been the intention of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation to work in cooperation with the National Park Service to properly manage the Oklahoma City National Memorial. The winning design for the Memorial, which will be fully explained by its architect today, I think will be a fabulous beacon drawing mankind to the site that will remind us of our nation's greatness.
    Earlier this summer the Senate passed the companion legislation by a large vote and on the 13th of August President Clinton declared his support for the National Memorial.
    If I could, Mr. Chairman, I would like to take, I think, this moment to introduce into the record written statements regarding H.R. 1849 by Senator Inhofe, Mr. Watts, and Governor Frank Keating.
    Mr. HANSEN. Without objection.
    [The statement of Senator Inhofe follows:]
STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES M. INHOFE, A SENATOR IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
    Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, as a former House Member, I am both pleased and honored to have the opportunity to present my views today on the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997 (H.R. 1849). As an original cosponsor of the Senate companion legislation, I certainly appreciate the leadership efforts Representative Lucas has demonstrated on this important piece of legislation.
    As you are aware, the Senate unanimously approved the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997, S. 871, on July 31. I was extremely pleased at the pace in which the Senate acted upon this legislation. It was just a few short months ago that this legislation was just an idea. Now, we stand on the verge of enacting this legislation to remember both the victims and survivors of this terrible tragedy.
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    On April 19, 1995, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building shook the conscience of United States. As a result of this cowardly terrorist's attack on innocent people, 168 men, women, and children lost their lives. Few events, if any, have shaken the American public's view of themselves and confidence in the American way of life. The vivid memories and images of the tragedy will remain forever etched in our minds for years to come. However, despite the tremendous loss of life and innocence, the American spirit has shown remarkable resilience.
    The individuals who lost their lives and those whose lives were altered as a result of the bombing deserve to be remembered as national heroes. These innocent victims arose each day and went to work to do the work of the American people. These were working men, women, and innocent children, not the elected figureheads, and represent the true backbone of the American government. As individuals, they must be honored and remembered. Therefore, it is fitting that the Memorial has been designed to honor them in a very visible way. Their lives serve as a testament to what this country is, what it can be, and what it will be.
    In addition to the immediate victims of the bombing, we must also recognize the law enforcement officials, the emergency rescue personnel, and the countless volunteers who rushed to Oklahoma during our hour of greatest need. The memorial's acknowledgment of not only the victims, but the others involved in the rescue process, is artfully done to remind us all that we are part of a nation that cares and responds to those in need.
    The establishment of the memorial is not only appropriate but an important part of teaching future generations of Americans what we are all about. This memorial will serve as a constant reminder to us that the price of our freedom is eternal vigilance against those who would rob us of our sense of security through acts of senseless terrorism.
    I am pleased that throughout the entire process of establishing this memorial that many of those who have been involved in the formation of this idea at the local and state level have been given the opportunity to express their views. Additionally, earlier this year at a Senate field hearing, the survivors and the families of those who tragically lost their lives were given the opportunity to share their personal experiences. Through this painstaking process we will have ensured that the names of those involved in this terrible tragedy will not be lost to history, but rather will command a place of honor and respect in our nation's history.
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    In closing, I would again like to thank the Subcommittee for holding this hearing on the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997. Furthermore, I would like to urge the House of Representatives to take up this bill that justly remembers the victims, survivors, and volunteers of the Oklahoma City Bombing.

    [The statement of Mr. Watts follows:]
STATEMENT OF HON. J. C. WATTS, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
        I would like to thank Chairman Hansen for holding this hearing today on the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act. I applaud Congressman Lucas's efforts in introducing this bill and realizing the importance of this legislation to all the people of Oklahoma.
    April 19th, 1995 was a terrible day for the State of Oklahoma. The whole world witnessed what minutes before seemed like an unthinkable act of terrorism. We, as a state and a country, pulled together as one to help all of those in need. Everyone was awed by the outpouring of love and generosity during this time of tragedy in our state.
    A national memorial for the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing will help continue the healing process in Oklahoma. This will serve as a central place where all people, who were either victimized or lost a family member or friend, can go to remember not only the day of the tragedy but also the love and support offered by the people of this great Nation.
    We must not forget the Homeric actions that occurred on the morning of April 19th, 1995. This memorial will allow us to reflect on that day and all those who were affected by this tragedy. It will serve as a memorial of hope, showing future generations of Americans how we as country came together during a time of unimaginable tragedy.
    Thank you again Chairman Hansen for having this hearing. All of Oklahoma thanks you and Congressman Lucas for your efforts in the passage of this legislation.
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    [The statement of Governor Keating follows:]
STATEMENT OF GOVERNOR FRANK KEATING, A STATE SENATOR FROM OKLAHOMA
    I am proud to write in support of H.R. 1849 by Representative Lucas.
    The April 19, 1995 terror bombing of the Murrah Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City was an assault on our Federal Government. It claimed 168 lives and changed many more. The national response to this tragedy was unprecedented; assistance came to Oklahoma from all 50 states, and for the days and weeks after the bombing, the site of the Murrah Building was the focus of the nation's attention.
    After the bombing's rubble was removed, the site was enclosed by a chain link fence which has become a makeshift memorial—a place of remembrance which draws hundreds of visitors each day. Those visitors also come from all across our country. They leave mementos on the fence, or simply stand and pray. I have only seen one other place with the emotional impact of this site, the Vietnam Memorial in Washington.
    The Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation has selected a design for the permanent memorial to be constructed at the Murrah site. Work is expected to begin on the memorial within the next 12 months, with completion and dedication sometime in 1999. This memorial will include outdoor facilities, remembrances of those who died and those who were directly affected by the bomb, and a museum. The hundreds of visitors who come to the site each day will swell to thousands after the memorial is constructed. This place has already become a national shrine; in the serve as a reminder of the costs of violence and hate, and as an affirmation of all that is good in our land.     H.R.1849 would transfer the site to the management of the National Park Service, in anticipation of the completion of the memorial. This is a fitting and appropriate step, especially given the willingness of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, the Oklahoma Historical Society and state and local government to cooperate in creating, building and operating the permanent memorial. We have an opportunity to encourage close and beneficial cooperation among Federal, state and local authorities, both private and public, by approving this resolution.
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    I urge its adoption.

    Mr. LUCAS. And let me say once again that I appreciate the opportunity to have this hearing before the Subcommittee and for the Members of this Committee to consider this piece of legislation. I think it is truly a unique opportunity to create a memorial that may weld new concepts in planning and design and interpretation and utilization, because that is what it is all about. I thank the Members of Congress. We serve a purpose of representing our constituencies and we do what—and with that, Mr. Chairman, I would be glad to answer any possible questions you may have.
    [The statement of Mr. Lucas follows:]
STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK D. LUCAS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
    Mr. Chairman, Members of the Subcommittee, I thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I am proud to have introduced H.R. 1849, the Oklahoma City National Memorial Act of 1997. This historical legislation is a huge step in the healing process for the people of my state and the entire nation.
    When a massive bomb exploded in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building on April 19, 1995, it shook Oklahoma City's foundation and shocked the nation. Few events in the century have rocked American's perception of themselves and their institutions, and brought together the people of our great nation with the intensity of this devastating crime. Although these losses and struggles are personal, and you will certainly hear of some of these experiences today, they resulted from a public attack and are shared by a heartland community, the nation, and the world.
    One of my district offices was less than a block and a half away from that ill-fated building. When I saw the damage to my office, a block and a half away from ground zero, the disbelief that I shared with my staff will never be forgotten. Mr. Chairman, colleagues, as you can well imagine there was no legislative road map to follow in the wake of this tragic event. It is both gratifying and a bit disheartening to realize that much of my legislative agenda during my short career in the House has been shaped by such an evil act. Over the past years I have had the privilege and opportunity to help ease the burden Oklahoma City has beared as a result of this devastating tragedy. And this is what brings me here today.
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    As will be explained in greater detail by others present, this memorial will encompass the Murrah building site, Fifth Street between Robinson and Harvey and the sites of the Water Resources and the Journal Record buildings. Both National Park Service and non-park service personnel will staff the grounds. All public comment, policy, planning, and design issues will be made by the Members of the Board of Directors of the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust, which will be established by this legislation.
    Given the national and international impact and reaction, the Federal character of the site of the bombing, and the significant percentage of the victims and survivors who were Federal employees, a National Memorial designation is highly appropriate. My legislation heralds the spirit, determination, and hope of Oklahomans and all Americans who have persevered in the wake of such a tragic event. The Oklahoma City Memorial will be established, designed, managed and maintained to educate present and future generations, through a unique public/private partnership, to work together efficiently and respectfully in developing a national memorial relating to all aspects of the April 19, 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City.
    The character of Oklahomans continues to be on display in their asking the Federal Government for financial assistance on this meaningful project. Although the Memorial will need approximately $24 million to be established, Oklahomans are asking that legislation establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System and authorize only $5 million in Federal funding. Furthermore, the memorial fourth will not accept a penny of Federal funding unless it is matched dollar for dollar by private donations. In addition to the proposed Federal money, the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation is seeking $5 million from the Oklahoma State Legislature and $14 million in private donations.
    The love and respect Oklahoma City has received, since being thrust into the national spotlight, was most evident in the vast participation and outpouring during the international design competition. The winning design, which will be fully explained by its architect today, will be a fabulous beacon drawing mankind to a site that will remind us of our nation's greatness. This nation, as has been proven many times in the past, will not be defeated by forces that seek to divide us.
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    Leaders from across the country have already stepped forward in a bipartisan effort to support this National Memorial. The Senate has already shown its support by passing the companion legislation S. 871 on July 31. On August 13, President Clinton also showed his support for the National Memorial by inviting the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation to a ceremony at the White House endorsing the memorial design. At this ceremony, President Clinton stated, ''The tragedy was a national one, and the memorial should be recognized and embraced and supported by the nation.'' He further stated, ''And we have now a memorial that I hope will be part of our national park system.'' I wholeheartedly believe this memorial deserves to be designated a National Memorial.
    I would like to thank Chairman Hansen and members of the Committee for the opportunity to testify before you today.

    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. We appreciate your testimony. Mr. Istook?
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ERNEST J. ISTOOK, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
    Mr. ISTOOK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the chance to be here to support Congressman Lucas' legislation.
    When we look at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing and why it is unique, it is because two things have come together that normally are very different. The same spot which demonstrated the very worst in man also became the spot where the very best was shown in an outpouring of service, aid, work, comfort and love. To have these extremes of the worst and of the best occur in the same spot, the same event, is unique.
    You can go anywhere in America or in the world and find a spot of some tragic event. Perhaps we cannot build a monument to every tragedy, but what happened on April 19, 1995, and the days following gripped our country so strongly that it is universally agreed that this memory and its lessons must be preserved and never forgotten.
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    In my own generation, very few events stand out as occasions when everyone remembers where they were and what they were doing at that moment: There was the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; the moment when man first stepped on the moon; the tragic explosion of the space shuttle Challenger; and now the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. It has taken its place as a universally shared experience, embedded forever, not only in our memories but also in our hearts. What happened in Oklahoma City, and the response by its citizens and by all of America, must be preserved and must be remembered and we must learn from it.
    The outpouring of love and tears, help, care and determination set a powerful example for the entire country and for the world. They saw a community which truly believed that we are our brother's keeper. In memorializing this event, we do not remember just an attack or an act of terrorism. We remember grief being met with compassion, need being met with service, hurt being met with comfort, and continuing needs being met with an outpouring of help that still flows strong today.
    A lady made a statement to me about the bombing that I think sums it all up. As she told me, ''Our faith is greater than their sin.'' In this memorial, we aspire to create a lasting and enduring monument to that eternal truth.
    I appreciate the support of the Committee and hope that we all recognize how totally unique this is, a monument not just to an act of terrorism but a monument to hope and the uplift that we all need in our hearts.
    [The statement of Mr. Istook follows:]
STATEMENT OF HON. ERNEST J. ISTOOK, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA
    When we look at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing, and why it is unique, it is because two things have come together that are normally very different. The same spot which demonstrated the very worst in man also became the spot where the very best was shown, in an outpouring of service, aid, work, comfort and love. To have these extremes of the worst and of the best occur from the same event is totally unique.
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    You can go anywhere in the United States, or in the world, and find the spot of some tragic event. Perhaps we cannot build a monument to every tragedy, but what happened on April 19, 1995, and the days following gripped our country so strongly, it is universally agreed that this memory and its lessons must be preserved and never forgotten.
    In my own generation, very few events stand out as occasions when everyone remembers where they were and what they were doing at that moment: There was the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; the moment when man first stepped on the moon; the tragic explosion of the space shuttle Challenger, and now the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. It has taken its place as a universally-shared experience, embedded forever, not only in our memories but also in our hearts. What happened in Oklahoma City, and the response by its citizens and by all America, must be preserved and remembered.
    The outpouring of love, tears, help, care and determination set a powerful example for the entire county, and for the world. In memorializing this event, we do not remember just an attack, or an act of terrorism. We remember grief being met with compassion, need being met with service, hurt being met with comfort, and continuing needs met with an outpouring of help that still flows strong today.
    A lady made a statement to me about the bombing that sums it all up. As she told me, ''Our faith is greater than their sin''. In this memorial, we aspire to create a lasting and enduring monument to that eternal principle.

    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you very much. We appreciate the testimony of our good colleagues. And if you will stay just a moment and see if there are any questions for you. Gentleman from—any questions or comments?
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Chairman, I have no questions, just a comment. I thank both the gentlemen for their testimony. I think there is a question of whether or not there should be a park or a memorial, should be under the control of the city—the residents of Oklahoma City or whether the National Park Service should have a dominant role in the management of this—if you would like to comment on that?
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    Mr. LUCAS. I truly think that it is appropriate that we go about this the way the bill is drafted. Clearly in the $24 million that will be required to design and create and staff this facility, $19 million of those $24 million will come from state and local and private sources, which gives it a unique character.
    Because of the spontaneous coming together of the task force to help create this plan in the beginning, I think that they have shown a most unique capacity to do what is appropriate in this case. I can say with confidence, though, that I believe that the Trust, the Foundation that would come from this bill will do everything within their capacity and they—that can be addressed momentarily from the other witnesses in the panel. But I think they will do everything within their capacity to develop and work in accord, a strong relationship with the National Park Service. And based on my experience with the Park Service, I have great expectations that they will work just as diligently in the other direction. And if they anything, we may well lay some new ground with this piece of legislation, for how to address the important national events and experiences.
    Mr. ISTOOK. I wanted to echo Congressman Lucas' comments, but I think the plan for the construction and operation, if you will, very much parallels what actually occurred in handling this disaster. Certainly we had units from all over the country, disaster assistance and urban rescue squads that came in from many places in the country. We had the Federal roles, FEMA, and disaster assistance. But, nevertheless, as—Fire Chief Marrs, who is here, he was involved in directing efforts there. Nevertheless, it was still all coordinated through Oklahoma City.
    And I think Oklahoma City showed unique capabilities and unique capacity, and I believe the legislation tracks that very model. It follows a model that was used so effectively in working with the disaster itself. And I think it is really suitable that the model for how the memorial will function will parallel that design.
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    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Perhaps the closest precedent that we have established in setting up National Memorials or Nationals Parks has been an example that we have set up in the Presidio in San Francisco. It is the thinking of both gentlemen and of the vast majority of the people in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, are you very comfortable in establishing this memorial? And you want to set up a partnership with the National Park System but do you feel that your people will be glad to take care of this issue in such a way that the Park Service can help, but it is not necessary that they have to control the entire effort?
    Mr. ISTOOK. I think, Mr. Faleomavaega, the—you know, just what went into working on the design of the memorial—Chairman Johnson is here from the committee and Mayor Norick, who oversaw the establishment of the method. The involvement has been so great, from the community and from the citizens of Oklahoma City, and it is, frankly, important to the community that they continue to show their ability, their capacity, to show how our community cares for one another, to try to do things for ourselves. I think that is very important to the community.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. HANSEN. Mr. Hefley?
    Mr. HEFLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the previous questioner got the answer that I wanted. There does not seem to be any dissension on this within Oklahoma, that you have everybody pretty much behind this effort?
    Mr. LUCAS. Absolutely. I would say initially there was some thought that it should be a state or local site, but then we considered, as we have all considered back home, the national implications. This was in fact a Federal site, a Federal Building. This was an attack that took the lives of an incredible number of Federal employees. This tragedy was an assault on the people of the entire United States. So, that, in addition to the national and international media exposure and the outpouring of warmth and help from people all across the Nation and around the world. This is a site of national significance and scope. And the route that we are attempting to go on this bill is the most appropriate, I feel. I think—Oklahoma City to reflect that national significance.
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    Mr. HEFLEY. Well, you know, an image was created for Oklahoma City as a result of this tragedy, both good and bad; the good being the way Oklahoma City rallied to meet this emergency and the bad being such things as the Connie Chung statement, rather than praising the firefighters in Oklahoma City and those who around the country who came to help she said that: well, what is the matter, does not Oklahoma City have any firefighters of its own? I hope that was one of the things that contributed to her demise on network television. I do not know.
    But I think it is very appropriate then that the people of Oklahoma should have a major say in creating the image for the memorial, if they would like. And the Chairman of this Committee and Members of this Committee have worked very hard. We are struggling with the idea and realizing that the Federal Government cannot do everything, but we want more and better parks. We want to recognize the important events of history the way we should. And the idea of private, state, local, and Federal partnerships to do this in certain cases seems very appropriate. And I think you were right, Mr. Lucas, when you mentioned that this might be an example that would be utilized in other places.
    I would say this though, that I think the Trust would be very shortsighted if they did not develop a close relationship with the National Park Service. After all, they are the people that have been in this business, and by and large doing a very good job in this business, for a lot of years. And so I would hope that that would be a very, very close relationship.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. The gentlelady from Virgin Islands?
    Ms. CHRISTIAN-GREEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really do not have any questions. I guess I would join you in welcoming my colleagues and commending Mr. Lucas for sponsoring the bill to memorialize and honor the memory of all of the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing—from this terrible tragedy and—experience—I look forward to your testimony. I hear that that is the direction in which you are going in. I commend you both. Thank you.
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    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Duncan? Gentleman from Puerto Rico?
    Mr. ROMERO-BARCELÓ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I also join my colleagues here in commending Mr. Lucas and Istook, our colleagues, for bringing this up here. And, also, I remember that day's happening. In Puerto Rico we felt as though it had happened right there at home. And we feel—this is, as you say, a national monument, not only a monument for Oklahoma but for all the Nation for the world to see. I will be pleased to do it. Thank you.
    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. The gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Vento?
    Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was not here for your opening statement, just direct my comments to the authors. I was interested in legislation. There is a law that deals with the designation, construction and maintenance of memorials and very few of the—little of the testimony today addresses itself to that. It actually provides for the construction from private funds and the maintenance, in fact, funds set aside for the continued maintenance.
    Really this case is extraordinary, the Federal role. I agree certainly with the designation. I agree with providing some support, perhaps even more than what has been indicated here, but I appreciate and recognize the tremendous contribution and interest of the citizens of Oklahoma nationwide in terms of supporting this.
    I think the question here in terms of the corporation is—first question to be asked: is the Park Service capable of managing and doing this traditional role? You are asking for Park Service designation, but then you—the Park Service actually to effect and protect the integrity and deal with the nation's parks.
    I understand, Mr. Chairman, there is no controversy over the design of the memorial. There is a pretty good consensus about that. So the question—my question is with—I do not expect any of you to answer them, because I think that they are questions that really need to be answered probably by all of those participating today. But, you know, is this the deal that—who is going to decide if there are any modifications to it? Is this going to be still in the hands of the Park Service or Congress? The operation costs, the maintenance costs, who is going to decide what—how they are treated in terms of the integrity of this particular memorial. Who is going to be responsible for the law enforcement? It may seem a like small thing, but it becomes very hard when you have to, you know, get an individual who decides that they want to take a rest on one of the benches for the evening.
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    So, these are the types of questions that, you know, in terms of who is going to be managing this and what the relationship is. Which I think these go well beyond the fact of GSA/FEMA, the interagency agreement. It really needs to be something that we need to put forth in the legislation in terms of directing the Park Service, who does—in terms of writing, and then come up with some agreement. I do not—I do not think—but at the end of the day if it is going to be a National Park designated monument? I mean that this is not San Francisco. It is the only corporation we have. In fact, we have done some very hard projects in terms of rehab projects, like the Statue of Liberty, dealing with foundations. So, there are plenty of models for drafting or drawing on private sources and giving a pretty good voice, a pretty good working relationship with the Park Service.
    I agree that—establishes a law, a law that deals with the designation of memorials, the construction and maintenance of them, and I suggest you look to it rather than the corporation model, which frankly was an unusual circumstance for Presidio and something you might use for, as I say to my friend Mr. Lucas, as a—corporation. As a private-government corporation, these have extraordinary powers. I think that it is not probably something that has been fully explored here in terms of what the issues are that we might be involved in. This is actually setting up another entity of government. For those of us that are concerned about too much government, you might be concerned about the state of the local government and the Federal Government. Do we need another entity?
    And so I just leave you with those thoughts and I hope that my colleagues and the many others that will be addressing these will be discussing the issues that I raised. I think it is a good and worthy project and it has support. I think most of us here—the policy fact is that we are establishing this very important legislation.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Congressman. We welcome our two colleagues from Oklahoma. We appreciate having you with us.
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    The first panel will be Maureen Finnerty, Associate Director for Park Operations and Education, National Park Service, and John Pouland, Regional Administrator in Region 7, General Services Administration. Thank you both. The Park Service?
    Are you folks able to handle your testimony in 5 minutes? We always give 5 minutes on the—it is like a traffic light. It works exactly the same way. Meaning go, yellow, and red means shut it off. I am sure we can accommodate you. We will hear from the Park Service, first.
STATEMENT OF MAUREEN FINNERTY, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR FOR PARK OPERATIONS AND EDUCATION, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
    Ms. FINNERTY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to address H.R. 1849, a bill to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System and to create a government corporation known as the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust to manage the memorial. First and foremost, let me say that we support the goal of establishing the memorial as a unit of the National Park System. The significance of the tragedy of the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and the meaning and implications of this event for our nation, compel the establishment of this memorial as a visible and prominent national shrine. While we support the establishment of this memorial, we have significant concerns over certain aspects of its management as proposed in H.R. 1849 and strongly recommend an alternative management arrangement. In raising these concerns, we share the sponsors' goals for expeditiously creating an excellent, well-managed national memorial that appropriately communicates and reflects the meaning of the Oklahoma City bombing to the nation.
    If enacted, H.R. 1849 would create a new unit of the National Park System in Oklahoma City—a memorial to recognize the profound changes brought to so many lives on the morning of April 19, 1995. The legislation would direct the National Park Service, upon the request of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, to provide technical assistance to the Trust and, along with other Federal agencies, to carry out day-to-day visitor service programs at the memorial.
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    While the circumstances compelling the establishment of a national memorial to the Oklahoma City tragedy as a unit of the National Park System are extraordinary, the approach to managing this memorial should benefit from proven National Park Service models. Because the National Park Service was not part of the process that developed the Intergovernmental Letter of Understanding, dated October 28, 1996, we could not provide our suggestions at that time. We appreciate the opportunity provided by the legislative process to share our views now about the most appropriate and effective role for each organization and governmental entity involved in the memorial.
    Mr. Chairman, we support the objective that this new unit of the National Park System be managed and administered in close cooperation with, and with the full involvement of, local citizens and entities. As proposed, however, the legislation provides no role to the National Park Service in the management or administration of this new park unless the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust requests its involvement for certain limited purposes. Essentially, the legislation provides complete control over this new park unit to the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, a wholly owned government corporation.
    One significant issue for reconsideration is the establishment of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust as a wholly owned government corporation. In a 1995 report prepared by the Congressional Research Service for the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, a government corporation was defined as ''an agency of the government, established by Congress to perform a public purpose, which provides a market-oriented service and produces revenue that meets or approximates its expenditures.''
    The only example of the use of a government corporation in the National Park System is the Presidio Trust, established by legislation last November. The Presidio of San Francisco presented a tremendous management challenge. The military transferred an enormous complex with many buildings to the National Park Service. In that case, the National Park Service needed the expertise of people familiar with business and real estate in the city of San Francisco who could effectively lease buildings and provide other mechanisms to assure that the Presidio's buildings were protected. While entrepreneurial revenue-generating goals are appropriate for the Presidio, we question whether they are as appropriate for this memorial.
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    It was clear to us from the testimony given at the field hearing in Oklahoma City that it is the wish of local citizens and the State of Oklahoma to retain a strong level of local control and involvement in all aspects of the memorial's operation and interpretation. We believe that the legislation could best achieve this by directing the National Park Service to manage the memorial in cooperation with the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, which could operate without the Federal restrictions that would be imposed on a government corporation. The general guidance for this cooperative effort could be outlined in legislation and the specific aspects of the partnership developed through cooperative and interagency agreements.
    We would be pleased to provide examples of public laws for existing National Park System units which involve partnerships with municipal or private institutions, as well as examples of cooperative and interagency agreements at existing National Park System units.
    We look forward to working closely with the delegation and the Committee staff in developing a legislative concept which will work well for the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, the National Park Service, and all of those who have been affected by this tragic event. Thank you.
    [The statement of Ms. Finnerty may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Mr. Pouland?
STATEMENT OF JOHN POULAND, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, REGION 7, GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
    Mr. POULAND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members. My name is John Pouland. I am Regional Administrator of the General Services Administration for the Southwest Region which includes Oklahoma City.
    I am here today to support an effort which will help the people of Oklahoma and the rest of the Nation to continue the healing process. I am here today to support H.R. 1849.
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    As the President stated during the Ceremony on behalf of the Memorial Foundation last month, ''The Memorial design is elegant. It is symbolic. It manages to focus on this act of unconscionable violence and still honor the valor of the people of the community and the lives of the victims in a setting of reflection and peace that should leave people, when they go through it, feeling stronger rather than weaker.''
    The people of the General Services Administration were personally affected by the suffering, involved in the rescue and emergency management efforts, and assisted in the re-establishment of operational capabilities. Now we are proud to help with the healing process. The Murrah Federal Building was part of the GSA-owned Federal inventory and the child care center was part of a nation-wide effort to create child care for Federal workers. Tragically, two of our employees died in the attack and 20 others were injured. Our regional employees were particularly distraught since we knew many of the tenants, our customers, from the various agencies housed in the building.
    Immediately following the bombing, GSA employees assisted emergency teams with the evacuation of the building. We established a security perimeter around the building for safety precautions and to expedite aid. Within hours of the explosion, GSA established a command center in Oklahoma City and located space for the Oklahoma City Disaster Field Office for the FEMA and the Department of Justice. By the next morning, approximately 50 of our GSA personnel were onsite assisting in critical areas. At the same time, the Federal Building and Courthouse, one block south of the Murrah Building, and the U.S. Post Office and Courthouse, two blocks to the south, received immediate assistance to maximize safety and restore normal operations.
    GSA was able to respond immediately in various ways to the Oklahoma City disaster. We either provided services directly or coordinated with other agencies and response groups. These circumstances were a true test of GSA's preparedness systems and procedures.
    Since the tragedy, the site of the destroyed Murrah Building was cleared and stands ready to be transformed from a site of pain and sorrow to a site of remembrance and healing. GSA fully supports the establishment of the memorial and is prepared to transfer the site to an appropriate Federal agency, or local entity if that is deemed appropriate. At the same time, GSA is planning to construct a new Federal building in Oklahoma City, as authorized by the Administration and Congress and in cooperation with the city.
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    The establishment of a National Memorial is the right thing to do. GSA supports the establishment of the Memorial and would like to work with the Oklahoma delegation, the National Park Service, and other agencies and entities to find the appropriate way to manage the memorial.
    This concludes my remarks. Thank you for having me. I look forward to answering any questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Pouland may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you both for your testimony. Mr. Pouland, H.R. 1849 provides for the transfer of the portion of the former Murrah Federal Building Trust at no cost. Does GSA feel that the intent of this transfer will allow GSA the flexibility your agency needs to continue the ongoing operations and maintenance of the underground parking garage at this site?
    And, furthermore, do you believe that GSA can enter into a Memorandum of Understanding and Cooperative Agreement with the Trust, the National Park Service, the U.S. Marshal Service, and the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts to effectively manage your adjoining two Federal buildings near the Oklahoma City Memorial?
    Mr. POULAND. My answer to both of those questions is yes, sir. We do, we can, and we will. The issue of adjoining property line, our parking garage, and how we will manage that longterm and how we may have to—frankly, future generations, hopefully not mine, may have to deal with renovation or construction issues on that parking garage site, and it will be next to the Memorial. We feel confident that we can do MOU's, Memoranda of Understanding, work with the Foundation to get the appropriate flexibility we need to prepare ourselves for those contingencies in the future. I would not want to be in a situation where 50 years from now it was deemed that that parking garage had a higher and better use and the issue of access to that land and what we might do there. I would not clarify it at this time, but we think we can do that with an agreement with the Foundation, with the city, with the community, an we will continue to work with them in every respect to address any concerns that we have now and that might occur in the future, get those in writing, have a clear understanding of what the relationship is and deal with it appropriately.
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    Mr. HANSEN. Would the GSA or the National Park Service, especially your counterpart, Mr. John Cook, the Regional Director of the National Park Service in Denver, Colorado, who assured all the necessary Memorandum of Understanding and Cooperative Agreements are executed in a timely fashion? The Subcommittee feels that there is a tremendous opportunity for Federal agency partnership at this proposed National Memorial and feels that GSA has a role at this memorial, the National Park Service, and the Oklahoma City Trust.
    Mr. POULAND. Yes, sir. I will, and the agency will, look forward to working with the National Park Service. The National Park Service and the Department of Interior are excellent customers of ours, and we view them as such and we will work with them in every way possible to ensure full participation, full understanding, and we will certainly continue to work with the local community in every respect.
    Mr. HANSEN. Finally, Ms. Finnerty, how does the National Park Service respond to this cooperative partnership with GSA and the Oklahoma City Trust? Do you believe that this will assist in the day-to-day management and success of the memorial?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Well, certainly we would look forward to working in cooperation under cooperative arrangement with all involved in this, both at the local and Federal level, and I think that would be important for the successful management of the site. However, we still have some concerns about the legislation as drafted and the overall role given specifically to the government trust to administer this as a unit of the National Park System in accordance with the laws and regulations. That role in specific on the Trust——
    Mr. HANSEN. Further questions?
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I think there seems to be a problem here in defining exactly the difference between a National Memorial and a National Park. Is there a distinction between these two? It is my understanding there are 27 National Parks that we have. Because of that designation—there is also a difference in funding as well as administration. Am I correct on this?
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    Ms. FINNERTY. Well, we have—as you know, Congressman, we have 376 units in the National Park System, and I think about 45 or 50 of those carry the designation of National Park. The other 325 have a variety of names, being seashores, recreation areas, historic sites and memorials, mines, the whole range. Generally all the units, though, are managed in accordance with the Organic Act of the National Park Service, and then more specifically in accordance with the particular laws established these Federal units. We really do not make a distinction of a memorial or a national park. There are specific in legislation establishing—will certainly provide——
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. We hear what President Clinton did this year. Because I ask all the Members to join me in supporting the effort to establish a memorial on the site of the bombing, so apparently the Administration is agreeable to this concept. And I wanted to ask Ms. Finnerty: I understand from your testimony that there were no consultations between the National Park Service and the initiative of the Oklahoma City, those involved with the State of Oklahoma?
    Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct. This letter that I referred to from—dated in October 1996, the Park Service was not involved in any of those discussions and that letter actually was signed by two Federal representatives, GSA and FEMA, and with no consultation with the Service in preparation. And it has only been fairly recently that Intergovernmental Letters came to light for us and we were able to look at it.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Could it have been because it was an honest oversight? Maybe they thought that maybe it was not necessary for the National Park Service to be involved in the memorial?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Well, I cannot speak to that, Congressman. Certainly the letters we have read, it does make a lot of references to the National Park Service and a role—of having a role in the memorial, but we were not in on those discussions.
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    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. It is my understanding that the Senate has already passed its version of this National Memorial?
    Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. How long was the National Park Service notified, at least for purposes of commenting on the proposed legislation? Were you given months or a couple of months or a couple of weeks to comment?
    Ms. FINNERTY. I think it was July of this year when the Senate hearing was held and——
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. So you really had no opportunity really to make any—proposed legislation.
    Ms. FINNERTY. And my understanding is, if you will correct this if it is wrong, that at that time I am not even sure we knew about the Intergovernmental Letter. And a lot has come to light during the last couple of months, so we have gotten more information about how this whole thing is put together. And I believe our testimony in July, we essentially did not take a position because we were looking forward to working with these entities. We now of course support the addition to the National Park System, but still have some real concerns about who ultimately is going to ensure that the site is managed in accordance with Park Service laws.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The train keeps moving, and the hope is that the National Park Service will be there. How do you propose a discussion? We have dealt with some issues with the National Park Service—maybe 10 years for a National Park—and maybe this monument—I think this is probably a bigger concern—delays.
    Ms. FINNERTY. I do not think there needs to be inordinate delays. We certainly are willing to work with the City staff, all those parties. We understand this is on a fast track and we think it could be done fairly quickly, and we would just like to see some language in there that ensures the Park Service will ultimately be responsible for ensuring that the Park Service laws, and those kinds of things, are followed. The Trust is not going to have any experience in that area. So, we think there are a number of models that can be looked at and do not view this as being necessarily——
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    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Can you at least propose—to our friends——
    Ms. FINNERTY. We will be happy to—we shared some of those already from the Regional Office in Denver.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. HANSEN. We will have to recess. We have a Member in the House of Representatives who is not getting his way and is posing numerous frivolous motions. This is another motion to adjourn and we will have to go over and vote on it, and then we will be back just as quickly as we can.
    [Recess.]
    Mr. HANSEN. The Committee will come back to order. The panel of witnesses come back to the table. We call on Mr. Lucas. Do you have questions, Mr. Lucas?
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess really, Mr. Chairman, I only have a couple of questions, one of which I would like to address to our Associate Director of the Park Service.
    You commented earlier about the Park Service not being a part of this process developing the Intergovernmental Letter dated October 28th of 1996. Do you remember or have any knowledge perhaps of whether there was any contact made with the task force or any of the entities in Oklahoma City during the process prior to that?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Congressman, I was not until just a few minutes ago on break, when Mr. Johnson indicated to me that they had made some contacts, I guess with the Park Service in Denver. That was the first that we were aware of any of that and—here in Washington, and we do not know who that was. We had no knowledge of that here. And, of course, after the legislation was being put together and drafted, our legislative offices was never involved in that. So, as I said, at break I just found out for the first time. But certainly we in Washington, and our legislative office here, were not approached at all during the discussions on this.
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    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you. And one other question. Do you agree with, perhaps because of the population being represented in this unique set of circumstances, that there are many features about this circumstance that are unique?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Well, I think no question. I would agree with that.
    Mr. LUCAS. And would you anticipate that should this legislation become law, President signed, should it become law, would you anticipate that the Park Service would do their dead level best to the Intergovernmental Agreement, or whatever avenues are necessary to try to implement whatever laws that would be signed in?
    Ms. FINNERTY. There is no question about that. We certainly will. We will participate and be helpful and try to make this work. We would feel, as I said before, a little more comfortable if we had a little stronger language in the bill, a bit more clearly articulated our role to help manage this in accordance with our laws and regulations.
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you. I really have no other questions at this time, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Mr. Vento?
    Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Finnerty, apparently this legislation suggests that the Trust will in fact administer the 1916 Organic Act, is that correct?
    Ms. FINNERTY. That is how we read it, Congressman.
    Mr. VENTO. Well, that is how it is written. So, I mean, you know, I think that that is—do we have any other examples in the Park Service where we have corporations or other entities other than the Park Service implementing the Federal laws, basically the Organic Act, other than the Park Service.
    Ms. FINNERTY. No, sir, we do not. We have the Presidio model, of course, which you referenced earlier, which——
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    Mr. VENTO. I am familiar with that, but they are not implementing the 1916 Organic Act. They are a corporation——
    Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.
    Mr. VENTO. [continuing] with a specific—is not there a Memorandum of Agreement and a stipulation between the Park Service and corporation as to what their role would be?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Yes, there is. Presidio.
    Mr. VENTO. Is there any Memorandum of Agreement between the Park Service and this proposed trust and corporation as to what the role of the corporation or the Park Service would be?
    Ms. FINNERTY. For this particular legislation?
    Mr. VENTO. Yes.
    Ms. FINNERTY. I think it calls for the possibility that agreements could be entered into. I think that is specified in the legislation. But, again, it is not mandated and it would be at the beck and call of the Trust.
    Mr. VENTO. For instance, is it not accurate that it is completely up to the corporation or the trust concerning whether the Park Service would have any role in this particular memorial?
    Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.
    Mr. VENTO. So, in fact it may be that under this agreement that there is no presence of the Park Service at a memorial which, in fact, by the Letter of Agreement, is going to be inconsistent and modelled after the 1916 Organic Act? It is possible there would be no Park Service presence?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Certainly it is possible that—because we—the Park Service could have a role, a limited role, if asked. And——
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    Mr. VENTO. Why do you think that is important that the Park Service be present?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Well, I think it is going to be extremely difficult for a government trust. You know, we have a lot of experience in managing parks. We have been at it for a long period of time. We have a lot of experience in opposing various legislative mandates, the Code of Federal Regulations, these kinds of things. A government trust is not going to have any of that kind of experience and I think it is going to be very difficult as they grapple with issues like law enforcement, they grapple with issues like the issuance of First Amendment permits. I mean, you know, it goes on and on and on. But that is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, a role, I think, for the trust to play. And those are the kinds of things that we are really concerned about.
    Mr. VENTO. In other words, whether this is exclusive or joint jurisdiction or, you know, completely operated by the corporation—these are important questions. Is there any reason that this legislation, if you know, is not inconsistent with the Memorial Act laws that we have today? Is not it true that most of the Memorials we have have a private group associated with it or a public group associated with it that are responsible, nonprofit groups raising the money for the memorial and for providing a budget or an escrow amount or the maintenance operation of it—or maintenance of it, is that correct?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Yes. We have a number of models that exist right now in the system of a variety of proper arrangements that deal with issues of funding, that deal with issues of management. There is a number of those kinds of things that we look at that we think might be a good model for this.
    We certainly understand that the local community and the citizens of the State of Oklahoma want to be very actively involved in managing this memorial, and that can happen. That can happen without any problem.
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    Mr. VENTO. Well, I mean in terms of selection of the site. But what about the interpretation of it? Nobody knows what that interpretation is going to be. Is there a general management plan to be developed for this particular memorial before it is law?
    Ms. FINNERTY. The law does not speak to that.
    Mr. VENTO. Well, but does the general law? The 1916 Organic Act said every Memorial has to have a general management plan?
    Ms. FINNERTY. I do not believe it is quite that specific, but certainly as a policy we do prepare planning documents for the use of the System, yes.
    Mr. VENTO. And then it has to be guided in terms of resource protection, other factors that are part of what goes into this? You said you do not know whether the 1916 Organic Act provides for a general management plan?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Well, it certainly provides for us to administer units of the system in accordance with, you know, laws and regulations. And the general management planning process, we certainly require that as part of our policy and that kind of thing. So, it is under the 1916 Act, yes, we would have to look at a lot of those planning documents and that kind of thing.
    Mr. VENTO. Very often is not there a controversy or issues that arise with regards to what the interpretation of a certain site might be?
    Ms. FINNERTY. Oh, absolutely. Yes.
    Mr. VENTO. So, I mean, maybe through the problems in terms of what the memorial—I do not know much about the operation and maintenance of that. I mean, I know that there are going to be 168 chairs and there are going to be some other glass chairs, which sounds very interesting and very profound, but I do not know what the maintenance is of it. I do not know what—I guess it has undergone some scrutiny in terms of that. I assume it has. There is generally not a controversy about that, and I accept that. And it is good that that issue is out there so—beyond that, how you interpret this site is another matter. In terms of—very often we have found, for instance, at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, that individuals bring materials and leave them there.
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    Ms. FINNERTY. That is correct.
    Mr. VENTO. And so we have archives full of various types of pieces of memorabilia which have been brought to that particular site. And so these are the types of issues that arise as to what the disposition of that material is, whether it should be—but I suggest there may be some. So, I think there are a lot of questions that have to be answered by those that are proposing this in terms of establishing a corporation. Some of those questions are answered in the legislation, but most often they are not. I can just tell you that I think that in terms of obtaining the private funding and the enthusiasm and control in terms of this, I think that the model that was selected here raised lots of questions in my mind. The purpose of it I completely agree with, in terms of private funding and the corporation having some freedom, but I do not know why it could not be under the nonprofit. We have Nature Conservancy and—various pieces of the plan, designate a piece of it as—we need to articulate what the responsibilities are much more clearly in terms of the Park Service and in terms of the 1916 Organic Act than what has been done.
    I think some clarifying language—I understand that this is going to be marked up tomorrow. And I think that these questions are not answered in the testimony that I have read from anyone today. I would be happy to yield. My time has expired, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. HANSEN. Without objection.
    [The information referred to may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. LUCAS. I appreciate the gentleman for sharing them. Just ask for a moment that the gentleman—I think that the testimony following in the next three panels there will be some opportunities to get on into those various questions, that they have been aggressive in working with since the 19th of April, since the Task Force has been set up, and I think the gentleman will be pleasantly surprised by the careful thought that has gone into this and the responses that will be given. I thank the gentleman.
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    Mr. VENTO. I will apologize to the gentleman in advance. I looked at just—I read it—preread some of it, and if I will not be able to stay for this, I hope that the markup of this might be able to facilitate or answer some of these questions. So, certainly tomorrow—certainly, Mr. Chairman, that this is your decision, but I—thank you.
    Mr. HANSEN. I think Mr. Vento has raised some important questions, not the least of which I think I touch on, and that is in the emotion of the moment, now, and the emotion is still very heavy, I think, on the Nation and particularly anyone connected with Oklahoma, we can plan grand schemes of things. But we have a motion—it has not been easy to raise the private money and that kind of thing. Then who is going to take it on and continue it? And I think—and in what manner? I think that is kind of what you were leading to in a way, Mr. Vento. I think that you need to deal with those questions. I do not think—I think all of us here want this memorial to succeed, and I think that is exactly what you were getting at.
    Well, thank you very much, panel, and we will go to the next panel.
    The Mayor of Oklahoma City, Ron Norick; Robert Johnson, Chairman of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation; and Hans Butzer, who is the Designer of the Memorial. We welcome the panel. You folks have 5 minutes exactly——
    Mr. NORICK. No, that would be fine.
    Mr. HANSEN. I appreciate it very much.
STATEMENT OF RONALD J. NORICK, MAYOR, OKLAHOMA CITY
    Mr. NORICK. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I am Ronald J. Norick, Mayor of the city of Oklahoma City and I want to thank you for allowing us to be here today.
    As you know, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, devastated the lives of Oklahoma City residents in a way unlike any other event in the history of the United States. I will focus my testimony on the impact the bombing had on Oklahoma City and why the proposed legislation is so important to our city.
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    This legislation will not only benefit Oklahoma City, but it will benefit all Americans. While this event occurred in Oklahoma City, it was an attack on all Americans. It was an attack on all the people who believe in the principles of this nation. People from every state in the Nation as well as thousands of people from outside the United States have visited the memorial site. Hundreds of people can be found at the site every day in all kinds of weather, at all times of the day and night.
    This event touched people not just in the United States, but around the world. Thousands of items were sent to my office from people from around the world. It has been over 2 years since the bombing. Visitation and inquiries about the site have not declined. Thousands of people visit the site weekly. More than a million people have visited the site since the bombing, leaving pieces of them at the chain link fence that surrounds the building footprint. They have left hundreds of thousands of items, including messages, toys, flowers and shirts off their backs as they try to express their sympathy, their compassion and somehow understand that this could have happened anywhere in the United States.
    This legislation granting National Park status will recognize the sacred nature of the site and its significance to all Americans. This site of a tragic event has become a special place in our nation's identity. It cannot and not and should not be forgotten. This is why the city strongly supports this legislation.
    Other than the loss of life and the accompanying impact on the lives of those touched by the loss, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building tore the heart out of our city. More than 300 structures were damaged and 12 buildings had to be demolished in the heart of our downtown. Rebuilding has been difficult as property owners and tenants, forced out of the area by damage to their properties, have been reluctant to reestablish in downtown Oklahoma City. Many have not had the finances. Special funding provided by Congress in 1995 has been absolutely vital to our rebuilding process. The recovery has been slow and there still remains a very visible hole in the city's fabric.
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    The Oklahoma City Memorial, in conjunction with the passage of this legislation, will do much to heal that hole. It sends a powerful message to the people of Oklahoma City and to the Nation that the healing process is well underway, and that investment in the renewal of downtown makes good economic and civic sense.
    The redevelopment of several of the larger buildings most heavily damaged by the bombing will now be possible. The city can also begin planning for traffic control, parking, streetscape, sidewalk improvements, directional signals, and other public improvements required to cater to the restructured business district and visitors to the site. Much of this planning has been on hold as the city and the property owners have struggled with the task of making this area whole again. That hold will be lifted by this legislation. Private investors who have been holding back until they know the future of the area can also begin their reconstruction plans.
    The city strongly supports this legislation establishing the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust. It is vital to those most directly affected by the events of April 19, 1995, that the story of this tragic event be managed locally. The Trust is the best vehicle for doing so.
    Let me say again the tragedy that befell Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, was not a tragedy for all of us in Oklahoma, it was a tragedy that affected the whole nation. The effect of that tragedy is felt no less today, over 2 years later. It is only fitting that a tragedy of such national significance be recognized as such, and the legislation I speak in support of here today provides that recognition. The city of Oklahoma City strongly supports this legislation and we will be happy to do whatever is necessary to support its passage.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    [The statement of Mr. Norick may be found at end of hearing.]

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    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you for your testimony. Mr. Johnson?
STATEMENT OF ROBERT M. JOHNSON, CHAIRMAN, OKLAHOMA CITY MEMORIAL FOUNDATION
    Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. My name is Robert M. Johnson. I am Chairman of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, serving as a volunteer pursuant to the June 1995 appointment by Mayor Ron Norick. I appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today.
    In April 1995, just days following the worst terrorist attack on American soil, the President and Mrs. Clinton visited Oklahoma, and while there they said, ''All of you, the brave people of Oklahoma, made it clear to the entire nation and all the world that those who sought deeds of terror to divide us brought us closer together.'' And he said, ''We will be by your side until the work is done.''
    Just 1 month following the bombing, President Clinton told the Nation that in the months ahead the Nation would look to Oklahoma for the vision and inspiration to appropriately memorialize America's tragedy.
    In response, Mayor Norick appointed the 350-member Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task Force, known today as the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation.
    The Foundation embraced the challenge of memorializing a tragedy in America so unique in our history. We democratized the memorial process by making it open and inclusive. There have been no political, socio-economic or other barriers to participation. Most importantly, we have encouraged, solicited, and given great deference to participation by family members and survivors in all aspects of this memorial process. This memorial process has been transforming and has contributed to the healing of our city, our state, and our nation and, most importantly, to those most directly affected by the bombing. As one family member has said: through the memorial process chaos has been transformed into hope and unity.
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    Incredibly, amidst all the emotions of the grieving process and the healing process, all votes on critical issues have been unanimous, including the one in support of the Memorial Mission Statement, adopted after months of input from family members of survivors and other caring people around the world. The opening lines of the Mission Statement are:
''We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave here know the impact of violence. May this Memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.''
    The Mission Statement requires that the Oklahoma City National Memorial consist of an interactive learning museum together with an institute dedicated to the prevention and mitigation of terrorism and finally a remembrance component. This last element was designed by Hans and Torrey Butzer and Sven Berg and was selected through an open international design competition which drew entries from all 50 states and 23 countries. This design was chosen on the first secret ballot of the Selection Committee by unanimous vote. It was subsequently approved by a joint meeting of the Families and Survivors Committee and the Board of the Foundation, again by unanimous vote.
    By its very nature, as an attack on the American Government and our public servants, the April 19, 1995, bombing was an attack on each American. Although the bombing occurred in Oklahoma City, by no means should this be memorialized as an Oklahoma City tragedy or even a State of Oklahoma tragedy. The national and international impact make it clear that this is an American tragedy. Equally important is the Federal character of the site of the attack and the significant number of those who died and the survivors who were innocent Federal public servants.
    The Oklahoma City National Memorial will memorialize America's Tragedy by first preserving the memory of those who died and the survivors and the valor of rescue and recovery workers, by emphatically confirming the unification of the spirit of all Americans in the wake of disaster and by sending a powerful message to the world of the senselessness of terrorism as a means of effecting societal or government change.
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    Let me clarify a couple of items regarding our contact with the National Park Service. We are here today because in the input process that led to the adoption of the Mission Statement, it was very, very clear that the strong, strong sentiment was that no one does it better in managing a memorial project than the National Park Service. They must be involved. We contacted them in the process. One of the co-chairs of our government liaison committee contacted the Denver office of the Park Service in the process of developing the Intergovernmental Letter of Understanding, which was executed in October of last year. The response from the Denver office was that until the designation as a unit of the National Park Service or other designation relating to the Park Service was made, that the Park Service could not enter into a Letter of Understanding.
    That contact, however, led us to an association with the National Park Service to develop an archives program, which we are using, with regard to the approximate one million items that we have in our archives, that would make our archives collection suitable for a unit of the National Park System and in compliance with the guidelines for the National Park Service.
    By no means have we ever thought about excluding the National Park Service from this. We need them. And by no means should there ever be a thought that there will not be a cooperative agreement. I pledged to the National Park Service that we would work a cooperative agreement out, and have done so in both in conversations with them and by correspondence.
    Following the development of the bill that was submitted earlier to the Senate, I contacted John Cook in the Denver office of the National Park Service and discussed the personnel that would be involved. And we had correspondence in that regard. And we built into our budget a supervisory interpreter, two interpreters, two seasonal rangers, and a curator for the National Park Service, and those numbers are built into our operating budget. We want the Park Service to be involved. And I am confident that, given the bill as it stands, I believe it is implicit that we would enter into an agreement with them, and I commit to you that we would.
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    Let me just close by saying that although the response to the Oklahoma City tragedy reminded the world that Americans are capable of great compassion, selflessness and unity when tragedy strikes, by no means is our response complete. We ask for your participation in this memorialization effort by enacting H.R. 1849. Thank you.
    [The statement of Mr. Johnson may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Mr. Butzer?
STATEMENT OF HANS E. BUTZER, DESIGNER, OKLAHOMA CITY MEMORIAL FOUNDATION DESIGN TEAM
    Mr. BUTZER. Thank you. Torrey Butzer—my wife—myself and our design assistant, Sven Berg, who is still in Berlin, thank you very much for the opportunity to present this design to you.
    Torrey and I will never forget the morning we heard on Voice of America radio while we were working in Berlin, that the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City had been bombed. Although we were an ocean away, we felt shocked that such a tragedy could occur on American soil. We also believed it to be our duty to make some sort of contribution to the recovery efforts.
    The design we are presenting to you today is based primarily on the introductory paragraph of the Memorial Foundation's Mission Statement:
''We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave here know the impact of violence. May this memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.''
    With these words, the experience of visiting the Oklahoma City Memorial begins. Whether traveling along Harvey, Robinson or Fifth Street, the first site of the Memorial Complex is of the gates of time. Within the urban fabric, these gates provide a powerful identity for the Memorial Complex and clearly indicate that this portion of Fifth Street has been closed forever. The Eastern gate and its interior sign is inscribed with the time ''9:01'', and on the inside wall of the Western Gate is inscribed ''9:03.'' These two gates together frame the moment and place of this terrible explosion, the time ''9:02.''
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    The gates also serve as physical and psychological transitions from the busy city streets to a meditative landscape rich with soft edges and sounds.
    Beneath the outside gate's wall inscription ''we come here to remember,'' one is drawn through the gates into the heart of the moment eager to tell its story.
    The footprint of the former Alfred P. Murrah Building to the South is covered with soft green grass, sloping up toward the warmth of the sun. One hundred and sixty eight empty chairs down this grassy slope where the building once stood, reminding us of those who died. While the tragedy has affected the community and nation as a whole, the 168 individual chairs will remind us of the personal loss which resulted on April 19, 1995.
    The chairs' presence will ensure that future generations of Americans will always remember these members of our community. These chairs are constructed of a stone seat and back, mounted atop a glass block base which is inscribed with a victim's name. By day, these chairs appear to float above their translucent base, just as our memories of their loved ones seem to float past at any given moment. By night, these glass bases will be illuminated, representing beacons of hope which lighten the night sky.
    The Survivor Tree, witness to the violence of the moment, stands to the North commemorating those who survived. Under its canopy, grassy terraces step down in contrast to the sloping field of 168 chairs beyond. Here, survivors may sit and find inspiration to live their lives more meaningfully and better appreciate the freedoms they as survivors still enjoy.
    Rushing forth from the city's edges to surround the Survivor Tree is an orchard of blossoming fruit trees which recognize those who helped. Symbolic in their bearing of fruit, these trees allude to the continuing life cycle of those rescued and their future generations. The harvesting of the fruit in the fall would become the focus of an annual celebration honoring those who helped as well as those who were rescued.
    Nestled in the northwestern corner of the site, the orchard, is a special place for the little helpers—the children. A series of chalkboards set in the ground represents the many letters and drawings the children sent in support and they provide a place for them to continue expressing their thoughts and encouragement.
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    At the center of this three-acre site, a long reflecting pool spans what was once Fifth Street. The sounds of gently flowing water provide a peaceful background to visitors' thoughts. During the hot summer, the pool will provide cool relief. In winter, its surface may freeze, reflecting the warm glow of the empty chairs. Dark reflective stone will line the pool's surface, making it difficult to see the pool bottom. Water will flow over the edges and disappear into a thin channel running around the perimeter of the pool.
    And it is here, at the water's edge, that the areas of the empty chairs, the Survivor Tree and its terraces, the fruit tree and its orchard, where these areas meet. And as visitors from all over the world gaze into the pool at their own reflections, they will see the faces of those changed forever.
    As you can see from our response, this event has touched the world. It is our hope that the world will be able to come to the site of this event and gain an understanding of what happened at 9:02 on April 19th. I respectfully urge your support of H.R. 1849, the bill to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System and designating the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust.
    Thank you.
    [The statement of Mr. Butzer may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mr. Butzer. Mr. Faleomavaega? Any questions?
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. The gentleman from Minnesota——
    Mr. VENTO. Maybe you could recognize him first.
    Mr. HANSEN. Fine. I will be happy to recognize the gentleman from Minnesota.
    Mr. VENTO. I do not want to take away any time—I have to leave, Mr. Chairman. I want to direct my comments to you concerning this proposal. I do not doubt—I commend the Mayor for the quick action of the Task Force and so forth. Mr. Johnson, I listened to your comments with regard to the Park Service issue. It obviously has come up unexpected. I did not mean to do that today either, so I am not very——
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    I just hope that you realize I was trying to ask questions, but I raised these questions in good faith. No one prompted me to do this. It certainly comes out of the background in terms of having worked with these topics. So, many other questions with concession policies, commercial applications, fundraising efforts onsite. And most of those—if we are going to convey these types of responsibility to the corporation, that we just do not know. It is not an entity that we do not—it is unknown to us and we do not know about this. So, I think we are concerned about it.
    So, I hope that this Memorandum of Understanding, the final policies, should—because you have got to have some sort of accountability. I understand that somebody else is raising all the money, why should the Park Service tell you what to do? I mean, that is really I think what the—part of the issue here is. But where we feel uncomfortable, at least I do and I think many Members, but nobody wants to—we all want to support this, but we need to have some assurance in terms of these policies that evolve. We know that in the context of the laws that we have, the laws regarding memorials and their construction, designation, maintenance—obviously that is apparently not acceptable to some. I would hope that would be the first instance.
    But beside that I think we need—we at least need at least some assurance that the Park Service when they get the Memorandum of Agreement here, that in fact they will have something to say about the general management plan.
    On the other issues, I know that you employed the state historic preservation office—at least I assume it was the state historic preservation office, the Oklahoma Historical Society, in reference to one of the——
    I have read this material now and I have these questions. And I think that they need to be answered before you move from the Subcommittee, Mr. Chairman, to the full Committee. And I do not know that—I do not mean to—I understand that you are going to mark it up, and you perhaps were not aware that these questions had been raised. They have been, so I ask you to consider that before you—I think it would be a better time to do this before we move it along——
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    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. I appreciate it.
    Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to leave. I am going to excuse myself. Thank you.
    Mr. HANSEN. The gentleman from Colorado?
    Mr. HEFLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that it is an enormous memorial to Oklahoma and to Oklahoma City, the way you move about this task of coming to this point. Not only the way you dealt with the tragedy in time and the way you deal with—Mr. Mayor, I think it is a tribute to your leadership that this has moved with the smoothness and as fast as it has. And, Mr. Johnson, you have taken on an enormous task, and you are to be commended as well.
    I think the design concept is, and the way it is described and the way we see it in the pictures, it looks like a wonderful design and concept. Who am I to criticize the design concept? But I think you may have missed—or maybe you have not and I have just overlooked it—and that is one of the signs of loss, which this commemorates I think very well, that ought to be commemorated here is the bravery of the firefighters. Every firefighter who entered that building was taking their life in their hands. There were lives lost trying to pull this rescue—I remember that the nurse, for instance, that was lost. And I also remember the very dramatic pictures of the fireman with the little baby coming out.
    At the Vietnam Memorial, the wall is the focal point, but there is a marvelous sculpture commemorating those young soldiers who fought in Vietnam, which is beside the wall. And I wonder if, Mr. Butzer, if any consideration was given to a sculpture memorial to those firefighters, from not just Oklahoma but around the country, who risked their lives in that rescue effort. Was there any—or is there something here that I am not seeing?
    Mr. BUTZER. For us the issue came down to an all-encompassing notion of those who helped. And my wife and I have always considered this orchard, which is surrounding—and that to the right side, which in effect comes around from the streets' edges and surrounds the Survival Tree. We have always termed that as the ''Orchard of Helpers.'' And this orchard, and its fruitbearing nature, is for us a very clear indication of the appreciation shown to, among those, the firefighters, the medical and police people from all over the nation, to indicate how important their role was in the rescue efforts.
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    Mr. HEFLEY. I think that is a perfectly good approach to it all, although it is a bit subtle. And unless someone has an interpreter there to interpret that, most people who see the orchard will not understand that. Or maybe there would be a plaque or something that will tell it. And I wonder if you give the—those brave people who went into that building the—Mr. Johnson, you can comment.
    Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Mr. Hefley, we will be developing an interactive learning museum in the building just on the north side of the remembrance site, and in that museum one of the focal points that is very important to us is to underscore the valor of the rescue and recovery effort. And it was an incredible effort of public and private sector combined that you saw in the days following the bombing, and that is where it will be told in detail.
    Mr. HEFLEY. Well, I have always thought that the firefighters, and I see your Fire Chief is here, but that the firefighters had the most dangerous public service jobs in America, more dangerous than the police, although I do not take away from that. When a firefighter—walk in that building and they go and risk their lives, and certainly this—every night on television it was depicted the bravery of these people. And I just want to make sure you do not overlook them, and I am sure you would not. You have shown enormous sensitivity in everything that you have done. So. But I just wanted to make that point. Thank you.
    Mr. HANSEN. Mr. Faleomavaega?
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, I think you know what seems to be the single issue here before you—the proposed legislation. I do not think there is any question in anybody's mind on both sides. One of them—according to what our friends from the National Park Service indicated earlier, they are kind of bent out of joint by this. It seems like they were not part of the process. And as—by the gentleman from Minnesota, the concern about the trust, based on—you are asking for a $5 million authorization as part of the process, extension of funds for this purpose? I would like your comments about the concerns that the National Park Service has indicated earlier. Mr. Johnson?
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    Mr. JOHNSON. I would be pleased to respond. Let me say first that in the development of the Memorial Mission Statement, again, we made it clear that the strong sentiment was that this memorial should be operated by the National Park Service. It should be a National Memorial because of all the reasons mentioned. In the months that followed the adoption of the Mission Statement in March 1996, there was increasing press coverage of the budgetary dilemma of the Parks System. The most recent article that I have seen was in the August 29th issue of ''U.S.A. Today'' where they alluded to possibly needing $8 billion to cure the difficulties. And the point of the article is consistent with others that I have seen, and this is by no means criticism of management of the Park System. The best managers cannot do their job without the funds do so. But the article made it clear that the public will either need to lower its expectations of the quality of maintenance of the National Park units, or Congress will need to appropriate more money, which is unlikely, or the Park System must find new revenue sources, and those may include combines with local communities and other entities outside the lines of the model that has been used for units of the National Park System in the past.
    We have attempted to do that. We could have come here with our hands held out and saying: this is a terrible tragedy and we want you to pay for it. But we have intentionally avoided doing that. We want this memorial to have a widespread public participation, and therefore widespread public ownership. We can only do that if the private sector bears the brunt of the cost.
    So, what we are asking for in light of the increasing attention to the budgetary dilemma of the Park System is give us a combine that perhaps can be a model for other units, although our focus is simply on ours. Give us a model that allows these things to happen. We can assure compliance with the guidelines of the National Park System. That is first and foremost on our list. We are not going to build a world-class National Memorial and then not maintain it, as they have been able to maintain units in the past.
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    Give us a model that allows us to retain money that may be generated from visitation fees, which we would like to avoid, but the reality is it probably will be a necessity, unless our endowment fundraising exceeds our expectations. But allow us to retain those funds for this project for future maintenance and enhancement and give us a model that allows both the Park System and those who have worked so hard and developed such a sense of ownership in this, particularly families and survivors, to both participate, neither to the exclusion of the other. And we think we can do that.
    It is not clear from the Bill, as Ms. Finnerty has pointed out, that a cooperative agreement is required. Absolutely there will be one. There must be one. And by no means is this a project where we may ask them to be involved. Never have we said that we would do anything other than ask them to please be a part of this project.
    So, we think this satisfies all of those requirements. It gives us the ability to perhaps maintain it at a level higher than would be the case with the Park System, and yet involves both collaboration of the private sector and the Park System in management.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you. Mayor.
    Mr. NORICK. Yes, I do. I think that, as was said earlier in the discussions, we knew that really the National Park Service was the right entity for us to model and to operate this memorial, because this is a memorial, and more than just to Oklahoma City. This is a memorial of a nation for the Federal employees. And it would not be fair if they were not involved, because this really is part of the national fabric. And I feel comfortable that within the legislation—I just—there is one very brief statement on page 12 of the bill that says: within 1 year after the enactment of this Act, the trust, in consultation with the Secretary, who is the Secretary of the Interior, shall develop a comprehensive program for management of those lands, operation of facilities within the memorial established by this Act.
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    I mean, that right there is a clear understanding that we want to be a part of working in cooperative agreement, that it will only operate efficiently when both parties agree to the operation. We want the help the Federal budget by providing those funds privately and the operation of that fund. That is the reason this Act—this bill only calls for a one-time appropriation. And with that I think it is imperative this trust does have operational control. If you will also note in the law also that it—that the President of the United States is the one that appoints the members of this trust. Their names are submitted by various entities in the State of Oklahoma, but the President of the United States has the overall ability to appoint the members of that trust, and that obviously shows that we want the Federal Government heavily involved in this.
    Mr. HANSEN. Thank you, Mayor. We will vote and come back, the last time. Excuse me, gentlemen. The gentlemen from Oklahoma?
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, once again, Mr. Johnson, will you discuss for just a few moments the financial background on this proposal?
    Mr. JOHNSON. The budget for the remembrance component, the outdoor area that is the subject of the designs as described, is approximately $10 million. The budget for the interactive learning museum in the building just to the north of the remembrance component is approximately $7 million. We are also committed to raising approximately $5 million to permanently endow the institute that I spoke of. We will also be providing an archives facility at approximately $600,000. And all of that taken together with foundation expenses give us a budget of approximately $24 million.
    Our plan for the raising of that $24 million has nothing to do with where we are today. The $5 million we are asking of you will be created as a partial endowment for operation and maintenance. We will be asking the state for $5 million of the $24 million and the balance, the $19 million, will be coming from the private sector, three of which has been raised today.
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    Mr. LUCAS. So, the way you describe the situation, it will create a situation where the Park Service would not have to have an additional annual operating sum appropriated by this Congress and that the funds that would be generated from this financial effort would also pay for the Park Service presence as envisioned in—statement and the various entities, including the Park Service?
    Mr. JOHNSON. It basically pays for the Park Service presence if we use the six personnel that have been suggested by the Denver office: the supervisory interpreter, two interpreters, two seasonal rangers, and curator. The estimated compensation for those six is $260,000 a year. If we use that, then the $5 million, you would be taking a 7 percent yield on that from the endowment that would give us $350,000 a year. So, we are only asking the Federal Government for about $100,000 in operating income interest on that endowment a year in addition to the Park Service personnel costs.
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you. I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I congratulate the Mayor on leadership he has shown through the tragedy and since then, for the way the community has worked and pulled together. Of course, the architect, what is your design. If I could in my final seconds ask Mr. Johnson if we would care to address any of the comments made by—put together with the time——
    Mr. JOHNSON. I do not think there is—I would hope no one will leave here today thinking that anyone with the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation or anyone else involved in this memorial has made an effort to exclude the National Park Service. To the extent of our involvement, we certainly have not. We have sought their assistance. We will continue to do so. And I will underscore the comment I made before, and that is we need them involved. They know how to do this and we want them involved.
    I think this model gives the Federal Government—a wholly owned government corporation gives the Federal Government more control than if it is the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation working with the National Park Service. The down side is not great. If this does not work, you created it, it is a single-purpose limited-activity agency, in essence, and you can unwind it. But we have every reason to believe that it is feasible, it will work, and hopefully we will see that it will work on other projects.
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    Mr. LUCAS. And as you would note, Mr. Chairman, a huge amount of effort and time and personal resources and very thoughtful planning and research has gone into this effort. I assure you this has not been a casual thrown-together bill. This entire effort has been put together with the detail that you have heard from this panel today.
    Mr. HANSEN. Well, I believe you said that the cooperation is awesome, the cooperation of the people of Oklahoma, the Mayor, the Federal Government. I appreciate what you said about the process, and they are good at that. You do a good job. I have to say there are a few little points I would like to see—and also that Mr. Hefley—I guess most of us were just entranced with this. It is like the Persian Gulf War, where you were just affixed on the television sets when this occurred, and you have to say that the—those who went in did a tremendous job of pulling out the survivors—memorial somewhere, because that was an unbelievable effort. I want to compliment the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, for putting this together and then trying to bring—some armed services——
    And you should be complimented on that. We have got one other great panel here that I would like to hear what you have to say, but we are all running out of time. So, I—will turn the chair over to him, and we will quickly run over and try to vote, take care, and be back as fast as we can. But if you will continue going, I would appreciate it.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. [presiding] Mr. Chairman, I would like to compliment the gentleman from Oklahoma for his sponsorship of this legislation. And the record is clear, contrary to what we have heard earlier, that there was close consultation with the Denver office, and for a reason suggested a number of Park Service staffing and expertise that——
    Well, thank you, gentleman for your testimony. We would like to proceed now with our next panel.
    For the record, Mr. Welch, a Oklahoma City resident; Mr. Don Rogers, the former Building Manager at the Murrah Federal Building; and Mr. Gary Marrs, the Fire Chief for the city of Oklahoma.
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    Mr. Welch, would you like to proceed?
STATEMENT OF EMMETT E. ''BUD'' WELCH, RESIDENT, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
    Mr. WELCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. I am Bud Welch. My 23-year-old daughter, Julie Marie Welch, was killed April 19, 1995, in the Murrah Building bombing.
    Julie had graduated from Bishop McGuiness High School in 1990 after being a foreign exchange student with Youth for Understanding. She lived with a family in Pontevedra, Galicia, Spain, for 1 year between her sophomore and junior years in high school.
    She received a foreign language scholarship from Marquette University in Milwaukee and entered school there in August 1990.
    Julie spent her sophomore year in college in Madrid at Marquette's campus in conjunction with the University of Madrid in Spain. She received her degree in Spanish from Marquette with a minor in French and Italian. Upon Julie's death, Julie spoke Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, English and knew enough German to travel. And she actually spoke a little bit of—also, which is my second language. She had graduated from Marquette University in 1994.
    Julie was the Spanish translator for Social Security. I brought Julie back to Oklahoma City over the Fourth of July weekend in 1994. That was our last long travel together. She was employed by Social Security the following month. She was hired under the Federal Government Honors Program.
    Julie Marie was my only daughter, my pal, my confidant and my friend.
    I was to meet Julie at 11:30 that fateful Wednesday morning for our weekly luncheon at the Athenian Greek Restaurant across the street from the Murrah Building. This is west of the Survivor Tree.
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    It became very important that the old faithful American Elm, now known as the ''Survivor Tree,'' be included in the planned Memorial. That was Julie's favorite place to park and this tree survived the blast that so many people did not. The dead have since been buried, the survivors have been relocated, and it is the only living thing left there.
    Working closely with the Memorial Foundation has helped me tremendously in my healing. I look forward to that continuing with the dialog with strangers once our new beautiful Memorial is built.
    I believe it should be a National Memorial with a National Park status:
The majority of the victims were Federal public servants. They died in service of their country.
The crime happened on Federal property and stemmed from what some believed were problems with Federal policies.
The people of this nation and the people of the world expect the United States of America to recognize this as a National Memorial.
    I base that on the thousands of cards, letters and telephone calls that I have received from more than 30 foreign countries, every province in Canada and also the territories of Canada, and every State in the Union.
    Let us please do not let the world down. I urge you to support H.R. 1849 to establish the Oklahoma City National Monument and designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust.
    We will build the memorial regardless of how this legislation turns out. We want the blessing of the U.S. House of Representatives, Senate, and the President of the United States. That is the main reason that we are here. We want Federal recognition.
    Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity. I would be happy to answer any questions at this time. In fact, I would encourage questions. Thank you very much.
    [The statement of Mr. Welch may be found at end of hearing.]

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    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Thank you, Mr. Welch. Mr. Rogers?
STATEMENT OF DON ROGERS, FORMER BUILDING MANAGER, A.P. MURRAH FEDERAL BUILDING, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
    Mr. ROGERS. I wish to thank Congressman Frank Lucas and the Members of this Committee for allowing me to testify on an issue I feel so strongly about.
    I am Don Rogers, Manager of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. I am a survivor of the bombing, injured in the building on the first floor near the center of the building.
    I would like to tell you part of my story, which occurred on a date that so many of us will never forget:
    The moment the bomb detonated, I was standing near the elevator lobby, just having completed a meeting which was held in my office (situated against the glass wall where the Ryder truck was parked). I had walked out into the hall after the meeting to have a side discussion with Robert Dennis, Court Clerk of the U.S. District Court. Quickly we were engulfed in total darkness—unable to see or breathe. I was choking for air when I came to the realization that someone was calling my name. Somewhat confused and unable to see, I reached toward the direction of the voice. In doing so I was able to grasp Bob's arm. Together we climbed over the debris trying to reach safety. It was as if we were crawling through a cave, except there was no air to breathe nor light to see. Beginning to feel somewhat ''entombed'', we became determined to find a way out. While we were attempting to get out of the building, Bob and I rescued two other ladies, Dot Hill and Pam Lacy. We were able to help them and we found a way through the rubble to the west side of the building.
    We quickly realized that things were not much better outside of the building. The north half of the building had been blown inward; a large gaping hole was all that remained of that portion. On the street approximately twenty-five cars were on fire. I was confused as to what could have possibly occurred to cause such damage. Realization hit me again with the impact of a blast, that I was immediately concerned for the children in daycare and the tenants in the building that I was responsible for managing.
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    I ran to the south of the building to gain entry and found men using makeshift ladders from the playground fences to climb into the building, trying to rescue those inside. The east stairwell was blocked by rubble so I could not continue to higher floors, so I went back to the plaza level. Looking upward I tried to determine the best approach I could, when I saw a man pinned against the inner south wall, hanging out of the building. The top of his head was missing, the lower portion of his body was completely crushed, yet he raised his head asking for assistance: ''Help me. Please help me.'' A moment later his life was gone. The Federal workers trying to pull him free realized that their efforts were in vain. Nothing could be done. Although my eyes were full of smoke and dust and debris, I have a clear memory of viewing this man's losing struggle with death.
    Members of the Fire Department were arriving to assist in the rescue efforts already under way. Again I attempted to enter the building in an effort to find employees and children. The firefighters saw me and insisted that I needed medical attention for my eyes and my multiple lacerations.
    I was treated at the local hospital that day, released in the afternoon, and returned to the building to help the rescue workers search for survivors and assist in identifying bodies. I remember thinking that this could not be the same building that I had worked for 19 years. It was difficult to identify anything. It seemed as though we were going down into a large cavern with debris heaped up on the ground and hanging down from the ceiling.
    I remember seeing one body that did not resemble a person; it was a mass of flesh and material embedded in rocks and crevices. The fireman with me at the time told me that this was a lady wearing a black dress imprinted with roses. I remembered that I had seen this woman as she stepped off the elevator, walking past me and toward the front doors just moments before the blast.
    The reason for telling my story today is that there are a thousand other stories to be told by the rescue workers, survivors, firemen, policemen, and medical personnel.
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    The innocent laughter of the children nor their footsteps (as well as that of my friends and coworkers) will never be heard again.
    Life's evening sun has set for 168 Americans, which will not rise again on this earth. The contributions of these individuals to their families and communities, local churches and civic groups were ended before any of them had the opportunity to do great things. However, each one of them was considered ''great'' by family and friends, thus resulting in a great loss to our nation.
    We wish to let the world know that violent acts must be prevented. The proposed memorial would provide hope that future violent acts of this magnitude can be prevented and serve as a reminder of how people can (and should) reach out and care for one another with compassion.
    We, as a nation, as a society, governed by the citizens, feel an urgency to construct an appropriate memorial in order to remember the value of those who perished (infants, children, sisters and brothers, parents, grandparents) the strength of the human spirit, and the loss of innocence experienced by America on that day.
    And unless we establish this memorial as a national monument to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those who were changed forever, plus provide a place for people to gain an understanding of the impact of violence, and also provide a place which offers comfort, strength, peace, and hope, the affliction of this American tragedy will be unresolved.
    Thank you very much.
    [The statement of Mr. Rogers may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Mr. Marrs?
STATEMENT OF GARY B. MARRS, FIRE CHIEF, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
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    Mr. MARRS. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I am Gary Marrs, the Fire Chief for the Oklahoma City Fire Department. On behalf of the more than 1,000 firefighters in Oklahoma City and those from 43 fire departments and a large number of law enforcement agencies that came from near and far to help in the rescue and recovery efforts, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today.
    As you know, at 9:02 a.m. on April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City was the target of a senseless act of terrorism. Within a few seconds all of our lives were changed forever. The tragic loss of life and the countless injuries were devastating to our community.
    Seconds after the bombing, a massive response of public safety agencies, health care providers and the general public occurred. The first arriving fire department personnel from Station 1 were faced with an overwhelming rescue operation. Buildings were damaged over a 60-square block area and a large number of vehicles were on fire. Major structural damage occurred not only in the Federal Building, but in a 26-story 400-unit apartment building, a six-story office building, a three-story office building, a two-story building with a restaurant and a basement across the street, and in several buildings in a four-block area.
    As we approached the scene, we began encountering debris in the road several blocks away from the Murrah Federal Building site. Firefighters began walking in front of the apparatus to move the debris out of the roadway. In addition, they began to encounter injured people walking away from the blast. A number of our units began to immediately treat injured survivors and quickly realized that there were going to be hundreds more.
    Dozens of rescue and recovery workers formed human chains as we began to pass victims from the building into the street. All of the individuals rescued alive from the Murrah Federal Building and the surrounding structures were rescued on that first day within the first 12 hours of the operation. Many of the rescues accomplished that day by Oklahoma City firefighters and the hundreds who assisted them would have been dramatic events if they had happened individually. The fact that they occurred as part of an incident of this magnitude overshadowed the hundreds of individual acts of professionalism, and in many cases heroism, that occurred that Wednesday in April and the days that followed.
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    FEMA workers and 11 Urban Search and Rescue Task Force teams came to Oklahoma City with hope they could help us find more survivors and to help all of us. Today, spread out across the United States, each rescuer has an understanding that this event was not just an Oklahoma event—it was an event that touched the nation. It has reached coast to coast.
    The outpouring from people was unbelievable. From the wheelbarrows filled with ice and drinks, to a national pizza chain onsite serving more than 10,000 free pizzas, to a supply room filled with everything from bandannas to rain suits to batteries. We would ask for something and people would bring it to the site. People donated clothes, food, equipment, and supplies in record numbers to support the rescue operations. If a request for some specialized service was made, such as veterinarians for the search dogs, the response was immediate and overwhelming. More than 1,000 cellular telephones were handed out free to emergency personnel and all the air time was donated by the companies.
    Establishing a National Park on the site of this attack is appropriate to honor the victims, the survivors, and the rescue and recovery workers and to show the world the shining example of how a community can come together to rise above adversity.
    As Oklahoma City Police Chaplain Jack Poe has said since the bombing, the ''Oklahoma Standard'' means a new level of caring. The Oklahoma City National Memorial will do just that. Mr. Chairman, again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to represent all of the brave men and women who worked for 18 days under impossible circumstances on behalf of our community and our nation.
    [The statement of Mr. Marrs may be found at end of hearing.]

    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. Gentlemen, I cannot find any words in the English language equal to what you have said this morning. Without question our nation was moved with compassion and sympathy for those individuals and innocent children who suffered——
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    I sincerely hope this legislation will move forward with constructive suggestions from our friends in the National Park Service and the Administration, and that we will proceed toward passage of this bill. And I think it is only appropriate that I would like to take time now for a statement from Oklahomans who sponsored this bill.
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Committee committing to sit through the Committee hearing on this bill and I apologize to the panel for not being here for the whole discussion——
    Clearly what you have seen and done in connection with this tragic event are the kinds of things that no one should ever have to see or ever have to do. It is reassuring to know that in our society, in Oklahoma, across the nation, that people under the most horrible circumstances can rise to the occasion to do what is necessary to help their fellow human beings. And that in many ways you have helped restore my beliefs in my personal—my faith in my fellow human beings and in humanity. And I personally appreciate you coming today to discuss what you went through and what you have gone through and what you are going through, because it means so much, I believe, to the message that H.R. 1849 has drawn across this country.
    And for that, thank you. I know it was not easy to prepare and I know it was not easy delivering your testimony. I must say this to the Committee and for the record: I truly believe that this piece of legislation in its original is not only the best intentions of everyone involved but the most careful and deliberate planning and thought, with hands extended to everyone in an effort to do what is right, not only for those 168 folks who lost their lives that day and in the days and hours afterwards, but also for the rescuers and every one who had a physical part in the process, then and in the recovery——
    So with that, Mr. Chairman, I would simply want to state for the record that I appreciate the opportunity to set up all these panels. I truly appreciate the Subcommittee's willingness to hear the testimony and hold a hearing on H.R. 1849. And I would certainly respectfully urge the Subcommittee and the full Committee to perform the mark up at the earliest opportune moment.
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    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. FALEOMAVAEGA. I thank the gentleman for his comments and again, on behalf of the Chairman of the Subcommittee—I thank you, gentlemen. The hearing is adjourned.
    [The photographs may be found at end of hearing.]

    [The Letter of Understanding may be found at end of hearing.]

    [The Memorial Mission Statement may be found at end of hearing.]
    [Whereupon, at 1 p.m. the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]

STATEMENT OF MAUREEN FINNERTY, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, PARK OPERATIONS AND EDUCATION, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
    Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to address H.R. 1849, a bill to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System and to create a government corporation known as the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust to manage the memorial. First and foremost, let me say that we support the goal of establishing the memorial as a unit of the National Park System. The significance of the tragedy of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and the meaning and implications of this event for our nation, compel the establishment of this memorial as a visible and prominent national shrine. While we support the establishment of this memorial, we have significant concerns over certain aspects of its management as proposed in H.R. 1849 and strongly recommend an alternative management arrangement. In raising these concerns, we share the sponsors' goals for expeditiously creating an excellent, well-managed national memorial that appropriately communicates and reflects the meaning of the Oklahoma City bombing to the nation.
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    If enacted, H.R. 1849 would create a new unit of the National Park System in Oklahoma City—a memorial to recognize the profound changes brought to so many lives the morning of April 19, 1995. The legislation would direct the National Park Service, upon the request of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, to provide technical assistance to the Trust and, along with other Federal agencies, to carry out day-to-day visitor service programs at the memorial.
    After the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building, President Clinton declared a national day of mourning for the victims of the bombing. He asked the people of the United States to pray for the victims and the community when they gathered in their places of worship. The President also traveled to Oklahoma City on that Sunday to participate in a memorial service for the bombing victims. At the service, the President personally thanked all those who worked heroically to save lives and he pledged to do all he could to help heal the injured, and to rebuild the city. The President promised to stand by the people of Oklahoma City for as long as it took. Creating a permanent memorial for the victims of the bombing helps fulfill the spirit of that pledge.
    After the Oklahoma City bombing, citizens throughout the Nation expressed their solidarity in many ways. Along with the national day of mourning and the rededication of public servants to their calling, personal mementos were left, and continue to be left at the site of the bombing. Through mayoral and citizen action, the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation was established to create an appropriate memorial on the site. The Foundation has done a tremendous job of involving the public, defining its mission and goals, and holding a design competition for the memorial. Building upon these local efforts is the legislation introduced by the Oklahoma delegation.
    While the circumstances compelling the establishment of a national memorial to the Oklahoma City tragedy as a unit of the National Park System are extraordinary, the approach to managing this memorial should benefit from proven National Park Service models. Because the National Park Service was not part of the process that developed the Intergovernmental Letter of Understanding, dated October 28, 1996, we could not provide our suggestions at that time. We appreciate the opportunity provided by the legislative process to share our views now about the most appropriate and effective role for each organization and governmental entity involved in the memorial.
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    Mr. Chairman, we support the objective that this new unit of the National Park System be managed and administered in close cooperation with, and with the full involvement of, local citizens and entities. As proposed, however, the legislation provides no role to the National Park Service in the management or administration of this new park unit unless the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust requests its involvement for certain limited purposes. Essentially, the legislation provides complete control over this new park unit to the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust, a wholly-owned government corporation. This management approach raises several concerns and should be re-evaluated in light of other proven approaches which incorporate substantial local involvement and utilize public/private partnerships for specific purposes.
    One significant issue for reconsideration is the establishment of the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust as a wholly-owned government corporation. In a 1995 report prepared by the Congressional Research Service for the Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, a government corporation was defined as ''an agency of the government, established by Congress to perform a public purpose, which provides a market-oriented service and produces revenue that meets or approximates its expenditures.'' The transmittal letter from the Committee stated that ''government corporations are an appropriate option only when certain conditions are present, such as a sustainable, commercial-type revenue stream, and that the misuse of the corporate concept can actually result in a weakened capacity of the executive branch to meet its statutory requirements and the capability of Congress to hold agencies accountable for their activities and financial obligations.''
    The only example of the use of a government corporation in the National Park System is the Presidio Trust, established by legislation enacted last November. The Presidio of San Francisco presented a tremendous management challenge. The military transferred an enormous complex with many buildings to the National Park Service. In that case, the National Park Service needed the expertise of people familiar with business and real estate in the city of San Francisco who could effectively lease buildings and provide other mechanisms to assure that the Presidio's buildings were protected. While entrepreneurial revenue-generating goals are appropriate for the Presidio, we question whether they are as appropriate for the memorial.
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    It was clear to us from the testimony given at the field hearing in Oklahoma City that it is the wish of local citizens and the State of Oklahoma to retain a strong level of local control and involvement in all aspects of the memorial's operation and interpretation. We believe that the legislation could best achieve this by directing the National Park Service to manage the memorial in cooperation with the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, which could operate without the Federal restrictions that would be imposed on a government corporation. The general guidance for this cooperative effort could be outlined in legislation, and the specific aspects of the partnership developed through cooperative and interagency agreements.
    We would be pleased to provide examples of public laws for existing National Park System units which involve partnerships with municipal or private institutions, as well as examples of cooperative and interagency agreements at existing National Park System units. Clearly, there is a need for the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation to continue in its role as fundraiser for the construction of the memorial and to establish an endowment to ensure the continued maintenance and preservation of the memorial. We believe that many existing National Park System units can serve as legislative models for a partnership which would include the Foundation, as well as Federal, State and local agencies.
    We commend Congressman Lucas, and the other members of the Oklahoma delegation in their efforts to appropriately memorialize the lives of the innocent victims of the Oklahoma City bombing. We look forward to working closely with the delegation and the Committee staff in developing a legislative concept which will work well for the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, the National Park Service, and all of those who have been affected by this tragic event.
    That completes my remarks Mr. Chairman. I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have.
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STATEMENT OF JOHN POULAND, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
Mr. Chainnan and Members of the Committee:
    My name is John Pouland, Regional Administrator of the General Services Administration (GSA) for the Greater Southwest Region which includes Oklahoma. I am pleased to appear before you today in support of House bill H.R. 1849, and its Senate counterpart S. 871, bills to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial and to designate the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust. The Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was part of the GSA; inventory and the legislation directs GSA to transfer the building site to the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust.
    On April 19, 1995, a vicious attack on the Government killed 168 people, including 19 children, and destroyed the Murrah Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Nobody who has heard about this senseless act of terrorism, seen the horrible pictures of human suffering and total destruction, or was in any other way personally affected by this tragedy will ever forget that day. We will always remember where we were when the news shocked the Nation and the world. Recent events such as the McVeigh trial and the sentencing caused us all to relive those tragic moments and listen to the heartwrenching stories of the survivors and the victims' families. Who will ever be able to erase the pictures of the small child in the arms of the firefighter etched into our minds and hearts forever?
    I am here today, to support an effort which will help the people of Oklahoma and the rest of the Nation to continue the healing process. As the President stated during the Ceremony on behalf of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation last month, ''The Memorial design is elegant. It is symbolic. It manages to focus on this act of unconscionable violence and still honor the valor of the people of the community and the lives of the victims in a setting of reflection and peace that should leave people, when they go through it, feeling stronger rather than weaker.''
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    The people of the General Services Administration were personally affected by the suffering, involved in the rescue and emergency management efforts and assisted in the re-establishment of operational capabilities. Now we are proud to help with the healing process. The Murrah Federal Building was part of the GSA-owned Federal inventory and the child care center was part of a nation-wide effort to create childcare for Federal workers. Tragically, two of our employees died in the attack, and 20 others were injured. Our regional employees were particularly distraught since they knew many of the tenants from the various agencies housed in the building.
    Immediately following the bombing, GSA employees assisted emergency teams with the evacuation of the building while Federal Protective Officers established a security perimeter around the building for safety precautions and to expedite aid. Within hours of the explosion, GSA established a command center in Oklahoma City and located space for an Oklahoma City Disaster Field Office for the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Justice. By the next morning, approximately 50 GSA personnel were on-site assisting in critical areas. At the same time, surrounding buildings like the Federal Building and Courthouse, one block south of the Murrah Building, and the U.S. Post Office and Courthouse, two blocks south, also sustained damage and received immediate assistance to maximize safety and restore normal operations.
    GSA was able to respond immediately in various ways to the Oklahoma City disaster. We either provided services directly or coordinated with other agencies and response groups. These circumstances were a true test of GSA's preparedness, systems and procedures.
    Since this tragedy, the site of the destroyed Murrah Building was cleared and stands ready to be transformed from a site of pain and sorrow to a site of remembrance and healing. GSA fully supports the establishment of Memorial and is prepared to transfer the site to an appropriate Federal agency or local entity if that is deemed appropriate. At the same time, GSA is planning to construct a new Federal building in Oklahoma City, as authorized by the Administration and Congress and in cooperation with the city.
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    The establishment of a National Memorial is the right thing to do. GSA supports the establishment of the Memorial and would like to work with the Oklahoma delegation, the National Park Service, and other agencies and entities to find the appropriate way to manage the Memorial.
    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my remarks. I would be happy to answer any questions that you and the Committee Members may have. Thank you.
   
STATEMENT OF RONALD J. NORICK, MAYOR, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
    Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee. I am Ronald J. Norick, Mayor of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. On behalf of the members of the City Council, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to testify before you today.
    As you know, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, devastated the lives of Oklahoma City residents in a way unlike any other event in the history of the United States. I will focus my testimony on the impact the bombing had on Oklahoma City and why the proposed legislation is so important to our city.
    This legislation will not only benefit Oklahoma City, it will benefit all Americans. While this event occurred in Oklahoma City, it was an attack on all Americans. It was an attack on all people who believe in the principles of this nation. People from every state in the Nation as well as thousands of people from outside the United States have visited the memorial site. Hundreds of people can be found at the site every day, in all kinds of weather, at all times of the day and night.
    This event touched people not just in the United States, but around the world. Thousands of items were sent to my office from people from around the world. It has been over 2 years since the bombing, visitation and inquiries about the site have not declined. Thousands of people visit the site weekly. More than a million people have visited the site since the bombing leaving a piece of them at the chain link fence that surrounds the building footprint. They have left hundreds of thousands of items including messages, toys, flowers and shirts off their back as they try to express their sympathy, their compassion and somehow understand that this could have happened anywhere in the United States.
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    For reference, the site is not more than a mile from the intersection of two of the country's major interstate highways, together carrying over 200,000 vehicles daily. Visitation will not decrease. The construction of the memorial and learning center will result in an increase in visitation, adding impetus to the City's efforts to improve the appearance and vitality of downtown Oklahoma City.
    This legislation granting National Park status will recognize the sacred nature of the site and its significance to all Americans. This site of a tragic event has become a special place in our nation's identity. It cannot, will not and should not be forgotten. This is why the City strongly supports this legislation.
    Other than the loss of life, and the accompanying impact on the lives of those touched by those losses, the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building tore the heart out of our city. More than 300 structures were damaged and 12 buildings had to be demolished in the heart of our downtown. Rebuilding has been difficult as property owners and tenants, forced out of the area by damages to their properties, have been reluctant to reestablish in downtown Oklahoma City. Many have not had the finances. Special funding provided by Congress in 1995 has been absolutely vital to our rebuilding process. The recovery has been slow, and there still remains a very visible hole in the City's fabric.
    The Oklahoma City Memorial, in conjunction with the passage of this legislation, will do much to heal that hole. It sends a powerful message to the people of Oklahoma City and to the Nation that the healing process is well underway, and that investment in the renewal of downtown makes good economic and civic sense.
    Knowing that within a year, building will begin on a world class Memorial on the site of the Murrah Building and that it will be designated a National Park, permits the City to be more specific in targeting development in the downtown area, especially in the severally impacted district surrounding the Memorial.
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    The redevelopment of several of the larger buildings most heavily damaged by the bombing will now be possible. The City can also begin planning for traffic control, parking, streetscaping, sidewalk improvements, directional signage and other public improvements required to cater to the restructured business district and visitors to the site. Much of this planning has been on hold as the City and property owners have struggled with the task of making this area whole again. That hold will be lifted by this legislation. Private investors who have been holding back until they know the future of the area, can also begin their reconstruction plans.
    The City strongly supports this legislation's establishment of the Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust. It is vital to those most directly affected by the events of April 19, 1995, that the story of this tragic event be managed locally. The Trust is the best vehicle for doing so.
    Let me say again, the tragedy that befell Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, was not just a tragedy for those of us in Oklahoma. It was a tragedy that affected the whole nation. The effect of that tragedy is felt no less today, over 2 years later. It is only fitting that a tragedy of such national significance be recognized as such, and the legislation I speak in support of today provides that recognition. The city of Oklahoma City strongly supports this legislation, and we will be happy to do whatever is necessary to support its passage.
    Thank you Mr. Chairman and members for this opportunity.
   

STATEMENT OF ROBERT M. JOHNSON, CHAIRMAN, OKLAHOMA CITY MEMORIAL FOUNDATION
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee:
    My name is Robert M. Johnson. I am the Chairman of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation, serving as a volunteer pursuant to the June, 1995 appointment of Oklahoma City Mayor Ron Norick.
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    In April 1995, President and Mrs. Clinton came to Oklahoma just days following the worst terrorist attack on American soil. The President said then:
''All of you, the brave people of Oklahoma, made it clear to the entire nation and to the world that the very deeds of those who sought terror to divide us brought us closer together . . . And we'll be right by your side until the work is done.''
    Just one month following the bombing, President Clinton told the Nation that in the months ahead, our nation would look to Oklahoma again to provide the vision and inspiration to appropriately memorialize America's tragedy.
    In response, Mayor Norick created the 350 member Murrah Federal Building Memorial Task Force, which is known today as the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation.
    The Foundation embraced the challenge of memorializing a national tragedy so unprecedented in American history. We democratized the memorial process by making it open and inclusive. There have been no political, socio-economic or other barriers to participation. Most importantly, we have actively solicited and encouraged and given great deference to participation by family members and survivors in all aspects of the memorial process. This memorial process has been transforming and has contributed to the healing of our city, our state and our nation, and most importantly, those most directly affected by the tragedy. As one family member said—through the memorial process, chaos has been transformed into hope and unity.
    Incredibly, all votes on critical decisions in this process have been unanimous, including the one for the adoption of the Memorial Mission Statement, which came after several months of receiving input from victims' families and survivors and other caring people from all over the world. The opening lines of the Mission Statement are:
We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever. May all who leave here know the impact of violence. May this Memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.
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    The Mission Statement requires that the Oklahoma City National Memorial consist of an interactive learning museum, together with an institute dedicated to the prevention of terrorism and violence and finally a remembrance component. This last element was created by Hans and Torrey Butzer and Sven Berg and was recently selected through an international design competition which drew entries from all 50 states and 23 countries. This design was chosen on the first secret ballot of the Selection Committee by unanimous vote. It was subsequently approved by unanimous vote at a joint meeting of the Board and the Families and Survivors Committee of the Oklahoma City Memorial Foundation.
    By its very nature, the April 19, 1995 bombing was an attack on the American Government and our public servants, and, as such, it was an attack on each American. Although the bombing occurred in Oklahoma City, the national and international impact and reaction make it clear that by no means should this be memorialized as just an Oklahoma City or State of Oklahoma tragedy. Equally important is the Federal character of the site of the attack and the significant number of the victims and survivors who were innocent Federal public servants.
    The Oklahoma City National Memorial will memorialize America's Tragedy by preserving the memory of the victims and survivors of the tragedy, by emphatically confirming the unification of spirit of all Americans in the wake of disaster, and by sending a powerful message to the world of the senselessness of terrorism as a means of effecting societal or government change.
    Although the response to the Oklahoma City bombing reminded the world that Americans are capable of great compassion, selflessness and unity when tragedy strikes, our response is not yet complete. We respectfully request your participation in the memorialization of America's tragedy by enacting H.R. 1849.
    Thank you.
   
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STATEMENT OF HANS BUTZER, DESIGNER, CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS
    Torrey and I will never forget the morning we heard on Voice of America radio while in Berlin, that the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City had been bombed. Although we were an ocean away, we felt shocked that such a tragedy could occur on American soil. We also believed it to be our duty to make some sort of contribution to the recovery efforts.
    The design we are presenting to you is our contribution, and is guided primarily by the introductory paragraph of the Memorial Foundation's Mission Statement:

We come here to remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever.
May all who leave here know the impact of violence.
May this memorial offer comfort, strength, peace, hope and serenity.
    With these words, the experience of visiting the Oklahoma City Memorial begins. Whether traveling along Harvey Avenue or Robinson Avenue or along Fifth Street, the first site of the Memorial Complex is of the gates of time. Within the urban fabric, these gates provide a powerful identity for the Memorial Complex and clearly indicate that this portion of Fifth Street has been closed forever. The Eastern gate, inscribed with the time ''9:01'', together with the Western Gate ''9:03'' frame the moment and place of explosion ''9:02.''
    The gates also serve as a transition, both physical and psychological, from the busy city streets to a meditative landscape rich with soft edges and sounds.
    Beneath the incription ''we come here to remember,'' one is drawn through the gate's opening into the heart of the moment 9:02 eager to tell its story.
    The footprint of the former Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building to the South is covered with soft green grass, sloping up toward the warmth of the sun. The 168 empty chairs are on the grassy slope where the building once stood, reminding us of those who died. While the tragedy has affected the community and nation as a whole, the 168 individual chairs will remind us of the personal loss which resulted on April 19, 1995.
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    The chairs' presence will ensure that future generations of Americans will always remember these members of our community. The chairs are constructed of a stone seat and back mounted atop a glass block base which is inscribed with a victim's name. By day, the chairs appear to float above their translucent base, just as our memories of loved ones seem to float past at any given moment. By night, the glass bases will be illuminated, representing beacons of hope which will inspire Oklahoma City, its state and the Nation, to rebuild and prepare for a better tomorrow.
    The Survivor Tree, witness to the violence of moment, stands to the north commemorating those who survived. Under its canopy, grassy terraces step down in constrast to the sloping field of 168 chairs beyond. Here, visitors may sit and find inspiration to live their lives more meaningfully, and better appreciate the freedoms they as survivors enjoy.
    Rushing forth the city's edges to surround the Survivor Tree, is an orchard of blossoming fruit trees which recognize those who helped. Symbolic in their bearing of fruit, these trees allude to the continuing life cycle of those rescued and their future generations. The harvesting of the fruit in the fall would be the focus on annual celebrations honoring those who helped and those who were rescued.
    Nestled in the northwest corner of the orchard is a special place for little helpers—the children. A series of chalkboards set in the ground represents the many letters and drawings the children sent in support, and provides a place for them to continue expressing their thoughts and encouragement.
    A long reflecting pool spans what was once Fifth Street. Gently flowing water soothes the healing wound caused by the fiery blast. The sounds of moving water provide a peaceful background to visitor's thoughts. During the hot summer, the pool will provide cool relife. In winter, its surface may freeze, reflecting the warm glow of the empty chairs. Dark reflective stone will line the pool's surface, making it difficult to see the bottom. Water will flow over the edges and disappear into a thin channel running around the perimeter of the pool.
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    It is here at the water's edge that the areas of the empty chairs, the Survivor Tree and its terraces, the fruit tree orchard meet. And as visitors gaze at their own reflections, they see the faces of those changed forever.
    As you can see from our response, this event touched the world. It is our hope that the world will be able to come to the site of this event and gain an understanding of what happened on April 19th. I respectfully urge your support of H.R. 1849, the bill to establish the Oklahoma City National Memorial as a unit of the National Park System and designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust.
   

STATEMENT OF EMMETT E. ''BUD'' WELCH, FAMILY MEMBER, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
    Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. I am Bud Welch, my 23 year old daughter, Julie Marie Welch, was killed April 19, 1995, in the Murrah Building Bombing.
    Julie had graduated from Bishop McGuiness High School in 1990 after being a foreign exchange student with Youth for Understanding. She lived with a family in Pontevedra, Spain for one year between her sophomore and junior year in high school.
    She received a foreign language scholarship from Marquette University and entered school there in August, 1990.
    Julie had spent her sophomore year in college in Madrid at Marquette's campus there. She received her degree in Spanish from Marquette with a minor in French and Italian. Julie spoke Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, English and knew enough German to travel. She had graduated from Marquette University in Milwaukee in 1994.
    Julie was the Spanish translator for Social Security. I brought Julie back to Oklahoma 4th of July weekend in 1994. She was employed by Social Security the following month, she was hired under the Federal Government Honors Program.
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    Julie Marie was my only daughter, my pal, my confidant and my friend.
    I was to meet Julie at 11:30 that fateful Wednesday morning for our weekly lunch at the Athenian Greek Restaurant across the street from the Murrah Building and west of the Survivor Tree.
    It became very important that the old faithful American Elm, now known as the ''Survivor Tree'' be included in the planned Memorial. That was Julie's favorite place to park and this tree survived the blast that so many people did not. To this day, it is the only ''living'' thing left on that site.
    Working closely with the Memorial process has helped me tremendously in my healing. I look forward to that continuing with dialog with strangers once our new beautiful Memorial is built.
    I believe it should be a National Memorial with National Park status because:

(1) The majority of the victims were Federal public servants.
(2) The crime happened on Federal property and stemmed from what some believe were problems with Federal policies.
(3) The people of this nation and the people of the world expect the United States of America to recognize this as a national memorial.
    I base that on the thousands of cards, letters and telephone calls that I have personally received from more than 30 foreign countries, every province in Canada and every State in the Union.
    Let's please don't let the world down. I urge you to support H.R. 1849 to establish the Oklahoma City National Monument and designate the Oklahoma City Memorial Trust.
    Mr. Chairman, thank you for this opportunity. I would be happy to answer any questions at this time.
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STATEMENT OF DON ROGERS, A.P. MURRAH FEDERAL BUILDING MANAGER (RETIRED), GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
    I wish to thank Congressman Frank Lucas and the members of this Committee for me to testify on an issue I feel so strongly about.

INTRODUCTION

    I am Don Rogers, Manager of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. I am a Survivor of the bombing, injured in the building on the first floor, near the center of the building.

BACKGROUND

    I would like to tell you part of my story, which occurred on a date that so many of us, will never forget.
    The moment the bomb detonated, I was standing near the elevator lobby, having just completed a meeting which was held in my office (situated against the glass wall which was the north wall of the building where the Ryder truck was parked). I had walked out into the hall after the meeting to continue a side discussion with Robert (Bob) Dennis, Court Clerk of the US District Court, Western District. Quickly, we were engulfed in total darkness—unable to see or breathe. I was choking for air when I came to the realization that someone was calling my name. Somewhat disoriented and unable to see, I reached toward the direction of the voice. In doing so, I was able to grasp Bob's arm. Together, we climbed over debris trying to reach safety. It was as if we were crawling through a cave, except there was no air to breathe nor light to see. Blocked exits and hallways, which we found to, no longer existed were conditions that further complicated our efforts to find light and fresh air. Beginning to feel somewhat ''entombed,'' we became determined to find a way out. While we were attempting to get out of the building, Bob and I rescued two other ladies (Dot Hill and Pam Lacy) who were confusedly moving toward the interior of the building. We were able to help them through and we found a way through the rubble, to the west side of the building where we were able to exit in an area that before had been a loading dock.
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    We quickly realized that things were not much better outside of the building. The north half of the building had been blown inward; a large gaping hole was all that remained of that portion. On the street about twenty-five cars were on fire. I was confused as to what could have possibly occurred to cause such damage. Realization hit me with the impact of yet another blast—I was immediately concerned for my employees, the children in the daycare, and the tenants of the building I was responsible for managing—where were they? I ran to the south of the building to gain entrance and found men using make-shift ladders from the playground fences to climb into the building, trying to rescue those trapped inside. The east stairwell was blocked by rubble so I couldn't continue to higher floors—I went back to the plaza level. Looking upward trying to determine the best approach I saw a man pinned against the inner south wall, hanging out of the building. The upper half of his head was missing, the lower portion of his body was completely crushed, yet he raised his head asking for assistance, ''Help me. Please help me.'' A moment later, his life was gone. The Federal workers (survivors of the A.P. Murrah Building and those who immediately ran to help from the US Courthouse) who were closest and trying to pull him free realized that their efforts for this man were in vain . . . nothing could be done. Although my eyes were full of smoke, dust, and debris, l have a clear memory of viewing this man's losing struggle with death.
    By this time, members of the fire department were arriving to assist in the rescue efforts already underway. Again I attempted to enter the building in an effort to find employees, children, and tenants. Firefighters saw me and insisted that I needed medical attention for my eyes and the multiple lacerations.
    I was treated at the local hospital that day, released in the afternoon, and returned to the destroyed building to help rescue workers search for survivors and assist in identifying bodies. I remember thinking that this couldn't be the same building that I had worked in for nineteen years, it was difficult identify anything. It seemed as though we were going down into a large cavern with debris heaped on the ground and hanging from the ceilings.
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    I remember seeing one body that did not resemble a person; it was a mass of flesh and material embedded in rock and crevices. The fireman with me at the time told me that this was a lady wearing a black dress imprinted with roses. I remembered that I had seen this woman as she stepped off the elevator, walking past me and toward the front doors just moments before the blast. This is one of the many horrible experiences I had on that day and the days to follow.
    This has affected my family through me. My wife has informed me (many times) that I awakened her in the middle of the night, telling her that we needed to ''get out of the building.'' I still have dreadful dreams and haunting memories every day—these vivid events seem to replay over and over in my mind which causes me to question ''Why'' were so many killed? . . . I wonder ''Why''?
    I attended the sentencing of Timothy McVeigh, the individual tried and convicted by his peers as the person responsible for this devastating act. It was difficult for survivors and family members alike to see this man, convicted of this tragedy, cold-faced with no remorse. This was a day that will not be forgotten by those affected by the bombing—it seemed as though Mr. McVeigh reduced the tragedy to an insignificant loss.

IMPORTANCE OF THE MEMORIAL

    The innocent laughter of the children nor their footsteps (as well as that of my friends and coworkers) will never be heard again.
    Life's evening sun has set for 168 Americans, which will not rise again on this earth. The contributions of these individuals' to their families, communities, local churches and civic groups were ended before any of them had the opportunity to do great things. However, each of them was considered as ''great'' by family and friends; therefore resulting in a great loss to our nation.
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    We wish to let the world know that violent acts must be prevented. The proposed memorial would provide hope that future violent acts of this magnitude can be prevented and serve as a reminder of how people can (and should) reach out and care for one another with compassion.
    We, as a nation—as a society, governed by citizens, feel an urgency to construct an appropriate memorial in order to remember the value of those who perished (infants, children, sisters/brothers, parents, grandparents) the strength of the human spirit, and the loss of innocence experienced by America on that day.
    Unless we establish this memorial as a national monument to:

remember those who were killed, those who survived and those changed forever, provide a place for people to gain an understanding of the impact of violence, and provide a place which offers comfort, strength, peace, and hope, the affliction of this American tragedy will be unresolved.
    I would like to take this opportunity to thank my wife, Joyce Rogers, and Federal Executive Board Director, LeAnn Jenkins, for assisting me in my efforts to testify before this Subcommittee.
   
STATEMENT OF GARY MARRS, FIRE CHIEF, OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA
    Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee, I am Gary Marrs, the Fire Chief for the Oklahoma City Fire Department. On behalf of the more than 1,000 fire fighters in Oklahoma City and those from 43 fire departments and a large number of law enforcement agencies that came from near and far to help in the rescue and recovery efforts, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to testify before you today.
    As you know, at 9:02 a.m. on April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City was the target of a senseless act of terrorism. Within a few seconds, all of our lives were changed forever. The tragic loss of life and the countless injuries were devastating to our community.
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    Seconds after the bombing, a massive response of public safety agencies, health care providers and the general public occurred. The first arriving fire department personnel from Station 1 were faced with an overwhelming rescue operation. Buildings were damaged over a 60 square block area, and a large number of vehicles were on fire. Major structural damage occurred in not only the Federal building, but in a 26-story, 400 unit apartment building, a six-story office building, a three-story office building, a two-story building with a restaurant and a basement across the street, and in several buildings in a four-block area.
    As we approached the scene, we began encountering debris in the road several blocks away from the Murrah Federal Building site. Fire fighters began walking in front of the apparatus to move the debris out of the roadway. In addition, they began to encounter injured people walking away from the blast. A number of our units began to immediately treat injured survivors and quickly realized there were going to be hundreds more.
    Dozens of rescue and recovery workers formed human chains as we began to pass victims from the building into the street. All individuals rescued alive from the Murrah Federal Building and the surrounding structures were rescued on the first day within the first 12 hours of the operation. Many of the rescues accomplished that day, by Oklahoma City fire fighters and the hundreds who assisted them, would have been dramatic events if they had happened individually. The fact that they occurred as part of an incident of this magnitude overshadowed the hundreds of individual acts of professionalism, and in many cases heroism, that occurred that Wednesday in April and the days that followed.
    FEMA workers and 11 Urban Search and Rescue Task Force teams came to Oklahoma City with hope they could help us find more survivors and to help all of us. Today, spread out across the United States, each rescuer has an understanding that this event was not just an Oklahoma event . . . it was an event that touched the nation. It has reached coast to coast.
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    The outpouring from people was unbelievable. From the wheelbarrows filled with ice and drinks, to a national pizza chain onsite serving more than 10,000 free pizzas, to a supply room filled with everything from bandanas to rain suits to batteries. We would ask for something and people would begin to bring it to the site. People donated clothes, food, equipment, and supplies in record numbers to support the rescue operations. If a request for some specialized service was made, such as veterinarians for the search dogs, the response was immediate and overwhelming. More than 1,000 cellular telephones were handed out, free to emergency personnel and all the air time was donated by the companies.
    Establishing a National Park on the site of this attack is appropriate to honor the victims, the survivors and the rescue and recovery workers and to show the world the shining example of how a community can come together to rise above adversity.
    As Oklahoma City Police Chaplain Jack Poe has said since the bombing, the Oklahoma Standard means a new level of caring. The Oklahoma City National Memorial will do just that. Mr. Chairman, again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to represent all of the brave men and women who worked for 18 days under impossible circumstances on behalf of our community and our nation.
   
STATEMENT OF HON. HELEN CHENOWETH, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF IDAHO
    I want to first thank Chairman Hansen for holding a hearing on H.R. 1849, a bill that would establish an Oklahoma City National Memorial, and an Oklahoma City National Memorial Trust in memory of the victims of the Oklahoma bombing tragedy.
    Mr. Chairman, the bombing took the lives of 168 men, women and children, injured more than 500 others and forever changed the life of countless others. Establishing this memorial and trust fund to the victims and the survivors of the Oklahoma bombing is the very least Congress can do to help the citizens of Oklahoma and the Nation recover from this terrible event. I am pleased that this memorial will be unlike any other memorial in that it will be an interactive museum for Americans now and in the future to learn and remember the lessons about the needless loss of life and tremendous suffering that occurred in this wanton act of violence. It will also stand as a testament to not only those who lost their lives in this tragedy, but also to those many brave individuals who took heroic risks to save lives from the dangerous wreckage of what was left after the explosion.
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    I am looking forward to hearing the testimony of the Oklahoma Congressional Delegation, who worked hard to put this excellent piece of legislation together. Finally, I am also interested in hearing how this unique trust fund and memorial, which will mostly be privately funded, is going to be managed. Its success may prove as a template for future memorials.
    Again, I thank the Chairman for holding this hearing. What happened in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995 was a very dark day in our nation's history. However, through legislative Acts such as H.R. 1849, perhaps there is some good to be gained from the lessons learned and the bravery witnessed in the amazing aftermath of this experience.

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