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Tuesday, March 17, 1998.







    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

Opening Statement

    Mr. REGULA. We will get started with the committee hearing. I am pleased to welcome all of you from the Smithsonian. Your statements will be made a part of the record.

    Secretary Heyman, if you would like to summarize for us.
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    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, sir, I would. Thank you for the opportunity.

    Last year was really a good one for us. We had over 30 million visits between the museums and the zoo here in Washington, and that was up 23 percent from the year previous. That says something about Washington, in general.

    Mr. REGULA. A 23 percent increase in visitation?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, sir.

    Mr. REGULA. Just think what that would do if you had a fee.

    Mr. HEYMAN. That is what I thought you would say, sir. [Laughter.]

    I walked right into that one, did I not?

    We opened the Geology, Gems, and Minerals Exhibition, which is sterling. We had a host of other exhibitions that were very, very good. I do not have to go through all of them, just a couple. The Ansel Adams show, turned out to be, I think, the largest draw the American Art Museum has ever had. That museum is just crowded every day. Unfortunately, the show ends in about a week, but it has been wonderful, and that has been true throughout the whole of the Smithsonian. We have had really very fetching exhibitions.

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    ''America's Smithsonian,'' that big traveling show, is now back. Its last stand will be and is in the Ripley Center, which gives people from the Washington area an opportunity to see it and gives staff at the Smithsonian an opportunity to see it. It drew over 3 million people when it went around the country. So it was exceedingly successful.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me ask you, did you break even on cost?

    Mr. HEYMAN. No, sir. We are still in the hole, but I trust that we will dig our way out considerably by a number of devices; one is the NOVUS credit card; the other is the possibility, although I am not sure yet how imminent, that we will do an international tour, which will be a profitable venture.

    Mr. REGULA. International?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes. Not with the same artifacts, but with other materials from the Smithsonian. If that works well, that will be a nice offset against losses from ''America's Smithsonian.''

    But I do not really look at them so much as losses as an investment, especially now that we have begun to be as successful as we are on the Web, which is really outreach, and as we have begun to be in the Affiliations Program with museums around the country.

    So, in a sense, this kind of established us around the country and, perhaps, it will also prove to be very useful as we get into a capital campaign. It is a little hard to know, but it can be viewed in investment terms, I think, properly.
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    Digitization remains a large priority for us, and you know in our budget we have a request for $3 million for the base to increase the amount of digitization we can do. The Web continues to enlarge. We are we getting over 12 million, close to 14 million—hits a month.

    Mr. REGULA. A month?

    Mr. HEYMAN. A month. It is, as you know, a very dense site with each of the museums and the research institutes having Home Pages under the Smithsonian Home Page. People spend a lot of time with us. It is not simply coming in and coming out. As far as we can determine, people are spending some significant time with us.

    We are beginning to put exhibitions on the Web. The site has two presently and various museums have exhibits as well.

    We are in the process of doing the first exhibition that I think was ever designed solely for the Web. It never existed other than on the Web, and it is going to open up new areas.


    I detailed the digitization matters considerably in my written statement. It is obviously about access to our collections. The sums that we are getting from the Federal Government and hope we will have in hand are being combined with grants from IBM, and Intel, and Hewlett Packard.
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    Mr. REGULA. Give us an example of what you would digitize. I hear it is quite expensive to do.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Where we are putting our attention right at the moment is a whole bunch of photographic images that are in the American History Museum. They are not all American History materials, but what else do they include, Dennis?

    Dr. O'CONNOR. There is a lot of two-dimensional material, Mr. Chairman, that we will be digitizing. For example, as part of collection management, when an object comes in it is photographed. We can just simply take that photograph, scan it, and then it becomes part of a digital record that we can either use for collection management or we can use to put it up on the Web as part of a virtual exhibit.

    So there are two-dimensional materials; photographs, negatives, art work, and then the more difficult task—and, indeed, you are correct, more expensive—will be to digitize three-dimensional images with the technology such that you can turn the image around to be able to see all sides of it.

    Mr. REGULA. This would be on your Web site then.

    Dr. O'CONNOR. Yes.

    Mr. HEYMAN. It will be on our Web site, and it will be connected with our Collection Information Systems [CIS], so that it is going to be possible to find the images that you want.
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    When we finish combining the CIS materials from the various museums, you are going to be able to come in on subject matter, let us say American Indian, and you are going to be able to find what we have in all our museums under a single subject matter, so that you are not going to have to scan museum-by-museum in order to find images, and the images will have with them the reference materials—essentially, the labels—that identify and explain the images.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Skaggs, we can be sort of informal this morning. So, if things occur to you, as we go along, do not hesitate.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Thank you.


    Mr. HEYMAN. And, obviously, we are using Web access for a number of educational programs. Natural Partners continues to expand. There are lesson plans on the Web now from a lot of the Smithsonian organizations. The Smithsonian Office of Education has posted a whole series of lesson plans——

    Mr. REGULA. Teachers would pick this up?

    Mr. HEYMAN [continuing]. That teachers can pick up and download, and then they can download materials, also, in support of the lesson plans.

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    Mr. REGULA. Do you have interactive potential, so that a school that is so wired could actually have an interactive classroom with the Smithsonian?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Obviously, we do with Natural Partners. Now, what else are we doing presently?

    Dr. O'CONNOR. The most significant interactive environment, Mr. Chairman, is the Natural Partners Program, and there is a downloading site, I believe, in many states of the Union, at least onesite.

    Mr. REGULA. Then the schools can plug into that.

    Dr. O'CONNOR. That is correct.

    Mr. REGULA. This has enormous potential.

    Mr. HEYMAN. It has enormous potential. It also has a lot of problems that are going to have to be faced over time, not the least being that interactive electronic potential is interesting, but you have to have somebody on our side to be interactive with, and so that increases the load on curators and research people, many of whom are really quite willing and excited about doing it, but they cannot do it all of the time, obviously, and also do their jobs.

    So sorting all of that out over time, for all institutions, not simply ours, is going to be a real challenge.
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    We are continuing the outreach of the Affiliations Program. You will recall the Affiliations Program is one in which the Smithsonian is entering into agreements with museums around the country. We are up to, I think, really nine now, or at least eight, where we have Memoranda of Understanding.

    I look forward to this as probably the most interesting new activity of the Smithsonian that has occurred during the time that I have been Secretary because I think this has the potentiality over the next 10 or 15 years to spread all over the United States, with portions of the Smithsonian collection in many places which will give people access to those artifacts and will bolster the efforts of regional museums around the country.

    I was worried whether our museums would want to be in a position to cooperate in this, but the ones that have so far been asked, primarily, which are American History and Natural History, seem to have absorbed this level of activity well and are really getting interested in it.

    The Provost has a small staff of people who are the facilitators, which is really critical for making these arrangements work.

    The amount of publicity that the Smithsonian is getting in each of the venues, where agreements are being reached, is considerable, and the amount of notice, with respect to the programs that are occurring through the American Association of Museums and other like sources, is considerable.
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    So we have now got inquiries from organizations in 30 states, and we know that a number of those are going to work out over time. So it just keeps mounting in terms of the number of people picking up our invitation.


    The research continues apace at the Smithsonian. I do not have to go through it. I have that in my written testimony. But we have been doing, for instance, a lot of work on El Niño in Panama. That has been one of the places with drought, and it has been very interesting to view what has been occurring, as Dennis was telling me, with regard to the adaptation by plant life, even in a single year.

    Up at SAO we are trying to find planets elsewhere than in our solar system, and so far we have found one. That discovery was made, I guess, at Arizona using the multiple-mirror telescope.

    But there is an enormous amount going on.

    Mr. REGULA. Would that be the new scope in Arizona that was put up on Mount Hopkins?

    Mr. HEYMAN. This was found with the old one. When will the new one be in operation?

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    Dr. O'CONNOR. We just closed the multiple mirror, and the single mirror is due to arrive up on top of the mountain, hopefully, by April. The first light we are anticipating sometime in July.

    Mr. HEYMAN. It is going to be a heck of an experience taking this huge single mirror up that mountain. As you might know, it is a very narrow trail that goes up, and there has been a lot of testing going on with respect to how to assure its safe arrival.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Maybe we could visit, Mr. Chairman. I think it would be a good time.

    Mr. HEYMAN. We would be delighted to have you visit there and then to visit the new site on Mauna Kea in Hawaii.

    Mr. SKAGGS. That might be pushing our luck. [Laughter.]

    Mr. HEYMAN. And then we are in a partnership in Chile on the Magellan Project.

    Mr. SKAGGS. We might be in the vicinity. [Laughter.]

    Mr. HEYMAN. It would be a delight. We would be really pleased if you came.

    Dr. O'CONNOR. Choose an evening with a new moon, Mr. Skaggs, because with a full moon it is too light. The stars do not show well.
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    Mr. HEYMAN. One of the things that amazed me when I went was that people do not look directly at stars any more. They really see the stars on a television set, and that is the way they are received. The image is enhanced electronically. You could be sitting here, and you could be looking at the same image that one is looking at right on the site.

    Dr. O'CONNOR. Nowhere near as fun.

    Mr. HEYMAN. No, nowhere near as fun.

    Mr. REGULA. It's not like being on the site, though.

    Mr. HEYMAN. We have five telescopes now that are dedicated to schools in the United States. I spoke about them once. They are through the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. Schools can sign up, and then once——

    Mr. REGULA. Schools meaning colleges?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Elementary schools and secondary schools, basically.

    Mr. REGULA. Really?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Secondary schools, more so junior high schools than high schools, but most of the astronomy that is offered at the K through 12 level is at the high school level.
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    But they can sign up, and then they can scan portions of the sky by prearrangement on these dedicated scopes, and then they get the results of that scanning back into the classroom over the Internet. It is an extraordinary opportunity with regard to being able to export experience in the manner that I was indicating, which is visually through the Internet.

    So it is just expanding in all kinds of ways is the point, I guess, I am really seeking to make.


    Let me turn to the budget request. Our total budget request is $419.8 million. That is up about 4.4 percent from last year.

    In salaries and expenses, we are asking for mandatories, and we have three program improvements that we are seeking; one of those is $3 million for digitization—the subject I was speaking about just recently. Some portion of that is for Natural History for relocation and moving in the East Wing, now that that is finishing, and for staffing in the West Wing. That is the wing that we are constructing with the proceeds of the bond that was successfully launched. So that is not being federally supported on that side.

    And then $11 million for the NMAI—for the National Museum for the American Indian—to begin to support the move of artifacts from the Research Branch up in the Bronx down to the Cultural Resources Center in Suitland, Maryland. That will be a process that will take a while, obviously, because each of those items has to be conserved, and then packed, and then moved. So it is a real process and there is a lot to do with that.
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    So it is the move; it is the staffing up of the Cultural Resources Center in Suitland; and it is the beginning for exhibit design with regard to a Mall museum which, hopefully, will be up—what did we say?—2002, and for which, of course, we are seeking federal funding for the last portion of that.

    We have requested $40 million, up $8 million for R&R. We still need, of course, the eventual $50 million so that we can be on a sustaining basis in relation to the analysis we have shown you in the past, and I hope we can be seeking that in the near future.

    As far as construction is concerned, obviously, we are asking for the last portion of the National Museum of the American Indian, and that is a bifurcated request; $16 million in terms of this fiscal year, an advanced appropriation of $19 million for next year. If both of those could occur presently, the probabilities are high that we would be able to start construction later in this fiscal year. That is the reason for including the advanced appropriation, as well as the appropriation for this time.

    Then $2 million for minor construction and alterations and modifications in planning. We are requesting $4.5 million for the Zoo for construction. $3.8 million of that is really R&R, and then $700,000 is for planning in relationship to the Holt House, which is a minor amount, but a more major amount in terms of master planning.


    Let me just say before I end my statement and invite your questions, that there are other buildings that we have been involved with; one, of course, is the Dulles Center, and we will have finished construction drawings, which are, at about 65 percent now, by next fall. We are hard at work seeking to raise money for that. We have some asks out presently, which is the first stage of that money raising, including some up in the State of Washington, obviously Boeing. We hope very much that they are going to be a major donor.
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    Virginia is coming through on the Dulles Center project with its promises in its Fiscal 1999 budget. It has infrastructure money, and the extra million dollars that it added at the request, really, of this committee some time ago, and we are quite confident that all of that is going to come through. So we will see how this proceeds because, obviously, it depends an awful lot on the success of the capital campaign for Dulles.

    I spoke with you, Mr. Chairman, and I do not think with other members of the committee, about the possibility of our seeking to purchase with non-Federal funds a building in the area of American Art and the National Portrait Gallery. The obvious target has been the old Hecht Building, which is diagonally across the street from the Patent Office Building that contains those museums.

    The purpose of it would be, first of all, to give swing space when we do the major remodeling, the repair and restoration, on the Patent Office Building itself. It would be very good to move everybody out and get that done more efficiently than otherwise would be true if we have to do it in sections with people still in the building.

    Thereafter, we would look forward to that building being occupied by some of the uses that are presently in the Portrait Gallery and in the American Art Museum because we would very much like to increase the exhibition space in the Patent Office building, and that would mean moving some offices out and moving some other facilities out that are presently in there; like conservation, like archives, like photography, and putting them elsewhere.

    In addition to that, we would see that building being used for trust-funded leases, especially, that are elsewhere in the city, so that we could be occupying it ourselves and get out of other lease space.
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    I have no idea whether we are going to be successful in arranging the financing in order to do this. If it looks as if we are, I will be coming to you, Mr. Regula, and to staff with a written proposal that explains this in great length and, certainly, we would look forward to discussing this with you and getting your views as to whether or not you think it is permissible for us to go forward. But I am not at that stage yet in terms of knowing whether I am going to be able to find the financing.

    From time to time, you have all asked about the balance between repair and restoration of our existing facilities and building new facilities. I have never been able, and I shall not be able now, to answer that in a definitive way.

    I can only say that, given the fiscal preoccupations, understandably, of the Congress, the potential of getting money from the Federal Government to do new buildings has been minimized, which means that if we are going to do new buildings, or at least increase our space in the foreseeable future, we are going to have to be finding sources of funding outside of the Federal Government.

    That will raise, of course, the problem of adding to the operating budget and what the sources of that additional funding are going to be. But it is going to be self-regulating in itself. The potential of raising that kind of money outside will dampen our attempts to go forward to increase space.

    But I must say that an institution like the Smithsonian, which is in the collection business and exhibition business, simply cannot stop collecting. We can minimize it; we can limit it; we can be more and more careful about what we get; we can try to de-accession some of the things that no longer seem to be of great interest, but in the end, the numbers of things we have will increase if we are doing our job.
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    Some expansion is clearly in the cards, but it is going to be very moderate, I think, given the fiscal circumstances that I have indicated to you.

    This concludes my statement, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you all for your attention. I look forward for the three of us, if not the four of us, to cope with whatever questions you might like to ask.

    [The information follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."


    Mr. REGULA. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I have a few, and then we will go to the other members.

    What percentage of your collections is actually on exhibit?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Well, first, I want to say that in the Museum of Natural History that contains a huge number of our objects—120 million out of the Institution's 140 million—there are lots of items that will never be exhibited, and there are lots of items that are very tiny. So you might get beetle collections or other kinds of insect collections with hundreds of thousands of items that are there for research purposes and I would say for archival purposes.
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    The Museum of Natural History is one of the world's greatest archives of materials that were once alive, which are just very valuable for a whole variety of reasons, especially as new techniques come, for analyzing those objects.

    In any event, that is 120 million. Of that 120 million, we probably show 100,000 or maybe even less.

    Then in the balance of the museums we have many fewer items, and we show a larger proportion of them. If you consider all of the items we have, we exhibit about 3 percent. I have not yet calculated what it would be if you took away those research collections. We still are not exhibiting a high proportion of what we have there in collections.

    Mr. REGULA. In the minutes of your board meeting you have a whole list of new construction item proposals. I wonder if you analyze what you have and determine if there is some way to consolidate some of this. As you point out, even if you get private funding for a new building, the operation costs over a period of time will be greater than the cost of the building. I think there will be, in the foreseeable future, budget limitations.

    It would seem to me that you have to consolidate some of what you have that probably is not relevant now, nor will it ever be.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Well, I think we have to do somewhat more of that, and we are de-accessioning. I hope we are going to be able to find homes for a number of the items through the Affiliation Program. As that grows, more of our materials will no longer be in our own hands—physically, in our own collections—but I do not know how major that is going to be in terms of the numbers.
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    I think that the pressure will come when we simply cannot hold any more, and that has a way of self-regulating itself in terms of those who are in charge of collections. But I did really want to say something about that paper that was in the Regents' agenda the last time, which is called, ''Strategy for Fulfilling Facilities Requirements.''

    The reason that that paper was in there is because the regents have gotten very interested in space planning, and the Regents are as inquisitive of what we are proposing to do, as this committee is, with respect to going forward, especially if the proposal is that we go forward with money that is not Federal money.

    So the desire for oversight is considerable, which I respect and I think is very proper. We are going to come before the Regents in the next meeting or the one following with a space plan, but we thought we would give them the kinds of analysis that had been rattling around the Institution for some time to prepare them for when we come in with the space plan, and that was the ''Strategy for Fulfilling Facilities Requirements,'' the paper that was in the Regents' agenda.

    I took that, actually, this morning at home, and with my trusty calculator I took a look at what the 4.6 million additional square feet are all about. I found out that 1.252 million of that 4.6 million square feet are already approved because those are the Natural History wings, the Dulles, and the NMAI.

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    Mr. REGULA. Right.

    Mr. HEYMAN. So that leaves me the balance, which is about 3.2 million. Of that balance, 720,000 square feet are in buildings like the Hecht Building that I just discussed. They are in the Federal Office Building on Independence Avenue, 10–B, which we have coveted because we could see ourselves taking all our Federal lease spaces—for instance, in L'Enfant Plaza and the like—and putting them in one place, and also have an arrangement with regard to chillers for the Air and Space Museum, for the Arts and Industries Building and the Castle that would work exceedingly well. That is another 251,000.

    A third is some plan—it is not an actuality at all, we have never discussed this with the Regents at all—to acquire a building in Southwest, which would be a replacement for the large building that we lease at 1111 North Capitol, where the Office of Exhibits Central, mail, and a whole variety of those kind of activities are located. I do not know whether we can swing that, but that would be put and take space; again, relieving a lease.

    And then the last is a small item, which is the Nichols School, which is near the Anacostia Museum, which is surplus property of the District School System and would just be a great enhancement to the Anacostia Museum. Again, I have no idea whether we can, in fact, swing this, but we are trying hard to see whether we, on a lease or whatever, could relieve some of the crowding at Anacostia.

    That leaves approximately 2.5 million square feet, which I call ''dreams.'' They are somewhere between the next 15 and 30 years, and I think all one can say is that they are dreams, and they are not ones that are, in actuality, being planned.
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    So that is a report which, on the face of it, seems very grand. But I think when one looks at it with care, it is not nearly as grand as it otherwise would seem.

    Mr. REGULA. How many square feet do you lease?

    Ms. NEWMAN. We will get that for you. It is about $6 million worth.

    Mr. REGULA. You can submit it for the record.

    [The information follows:]


    The Smithsonian Institution leases approximately 450,000 square feet of space in buildings located throughout the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.


    Mr. REGULA. Backlog maintenance. I know you have the $250 million backlog that you have alluded to in the past, which did not include the National Zoo. Now, it is my understanding that there is about $65 million in the combination of Front Royal and the Zoo, $26 million of which is critical. How are you planning to address all of this?

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    Mr. HEYMAN. I think I would ask Mr. Rice or, Connie, do you want to do that?

    Ms. NEWMAN. Mr. Chairman, what has happened is that the Zoo has gone through the same process as the Institution, as a whole, analyzing the buildings and the systems in the buildings. So the amount that you have is a result of the total analysis, but priorities will be set.

    Mr. REGULA. You mean the $65 million?

    Ms. NEWMAN. $65 million, yes. The priorities will be set determining what requires the restoration right now because there is an iminent safety problem, what is active, and then what is less important.

    It will come to you in the same way that we have come to you with the Institution as a whole. So that you should not expect a request for the total amount because the priorities are quite different. In some of the buildings, it is a desire, but it is not of major concern to the Institution.

    We are going to submit a full report to you on the Zoo analysis, as we did on the Institution, when it is completed. When will that be? Dr. Robinson?

    Dr. ROBINSON. Well, it is well on the way at the moment. The reason all of this transpired, of course, is we have a new head of our Office of Construction and Maintenance, and she set this in place two years ago, and it takes a long time to work this out.
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    Mr. REGULA. Would the $40 million you have requested for maintenance include some at the Zoo?

    Ms. NEWMAN. No. The Zoo is a separate request.

    Mr. REGULA. So that would be an additional item.

    Mr. HEYMAN. We put in approximately $3.8 million in the Zoo Construction request for R&R, but that was true last year, too. In fact, the lion's share was for repair and restoration.

    Mr. REGULA. The lion's?

    Mr. HEYMAN. The lion's share, that is right. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. I will stop at that one. [Laughter.]

    We could have a menagerie here.


    One question, and then we will go to Mr. Skaggs.

    You have heard me talk a lot about management. Could you cite any examples where, by applying good management techniques, you have been able to either become more efficient or reduce costs?
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    Mr. HEYMAN. Well, yes. We went through, in the first two years that I was Secretary, taking out a whole level of middle management. So we no longer have six assistant secretaries, as we did have when I came. We have centralized a number of those functions in a single office of the Provost with a smaller staff than existed for the totality of the assistant secretaries who were in that activity area, and we have done the same over on the Under Secretary side.

    So what we have done is to go from a circumstance in which, at least at the top management, we had a big horizontal line of assistant secretaries, we have gone to the Secretary, the Provost, and the Under Secretary as the decision-makers in the Castle rather than eight people.

    I think that, first of all, saved money just simply because of the reduction in numbers of positions, although the full savings of that is slow in terms of attrition. But I think what it really has done is that it has made decision-making, certainly in the Central Administration, a lot more efficient with the trade-offs occurring within offices rather than between multiple Assistant Secretaries, each with their own budget.

    Mr. REGULA. Do you constantly review the things that you do to say is this function still appropriate in 1998? You have such a wide range of areas of research. You mentioned the telescopes. I do not know what your so-called customer base is for that information; likewise, what you do in Panama and probably things that I have no knowledge of.

    Do you have some review process to say is this function still—maybe it is nice—but is this still appropriate, given the constraints on our budget, in 1998 and future?
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    Mr. HEYMAN. Let me turn to my two chief operating officers. Dennis, do you want to talk about that a little at the unit levels on your side?

    Dr. O'CONNOR. Briefly, Mr. Chairman, we meet regularly with the directors, and part of their planning is an annualized plan that they will perform during the course of the year, and that provides a forum for questions that you have just raised; is it appropriate, are there things that we are doing that we should no longer do?

    I guess my question to them is, are there things that you would like to do more than you are doing now and, if so, what are those and where are the trade-offs?

    I think that we can see, programmatically, a movement in that direction; a movement, for example, that has occurred with the fusion of the management of the Environmental Research Center at the Chesapeake Bay with the Natural History Museum. That integration, I think, is going to provide a new programmatic thrust that did not exist before, and it will not lead to any increase in personnel.

    So unit-by-unit we do reviews, both annually and then during the course of the year every month in conversations with the directors.

    Ms. NEWMAN. On the administrative side we do the same thing through the budget process. One way you get at asking the hard questions is, ''If you were to have a 10 percent reduction, how would you reduce? What would be your decision-making process for reducing the amount?''
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    The other way in which the question gets raised is, ''What would you out-source?'' Now, when we ask the question ''What would you out-source?'' you are also asking the question, ''What is it that you need to be doing, period?'' and then, ''What do you need to be doing within the Institution?''

    I find that the most valuable discussions about what we need to continue to do internally come through the question of out-sourcing because it pulls people out to ask the very tough questions when they are attempting to defend what it is that they are doing and when the questions are being asked, ''Why are you doing what you are doing and could it be done in a more cost-effective way externally or do we still need to be providing those services?''

    The last couple of years there have been some very interesting and tough discussions along those lines.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Skaggs.


    Mr. SKAGGS. Thank you. Good morning, again.

    I had in mind, and I think it follows on the Chairman's last question to pose what, I guess, has become sort of an annual question of my own about coordination of research activities with your sister institutions, both governmental and university.

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    For instance, you mentioned the El Niño research in Panama. How have you structured what may be going on in that area to avoid duplication with what NOAA may be working on or NSF through its grantees?

    Dr. O'CONNOR. Congressman Skaggs, actually, it is interesting that much of the information on the intensity of El Niño has come from a cooperative work with NOAA and the satellites that are providing these very rich color-coded images on temperature of the surface water and below.

    Our scientists are using that to correlate with this rather substantial decrease in rainfall, and then scientists at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute have begun to do very precise measurements of budding and flowering—increased budding and flowering—as a result of the decreased water.

    All of that then is coupled together with yet another group of scientists, who are studying carbon dioxide fixation as a result of that process.

    So we try to cooperate with a number of agencies. Currently, for example, there are 32 visiting scientists from the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Commerce, and I am missing one other department, who are resident at the Natural History Museum cooperating with our scientists.

    Mr. SKAGGS. The Smithsonian's research activities are done, essentially, in-house, as I understand it. You are not making grants to others.

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    Dr. O'CONNOR. That is correct.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Which then raises the question that, let's say, compared to NSF, in which its grants or applications for grants are, I believe, generally, put through a pretty rigorous peer review process, what is the analog to that peer review stage of things to sort of check on the pursuits of scientists in your institutions?

    Dr. O'CONNOR. First of all, for example, at the Astrophysics Lab, all of their research is almost 100 percent externally funded. So they go through the same kind of peer review process.

    At Natural History, on the other hand, most of the peer review process that occurs there is not so much at the point in which funding is obtained, but rather after the funding is obtained, through the internal process. The peer review comes from publications and the review of the scientific data, as it is put out into the scientific literature.

    I might also add that the scientists from Natural History, STRI, SAO, the Environmental Research Center, all serve as reviewers for the National Science Foundation, and so they are tied into that network and really know what is going on.

    Mr. SKAGGS. One of the schools at home proudly published the cumulative number of footnotes which had cited research done by folks at the school as sort of the key leading economic indicator of the value of their past research. Do you all have a footnote barometer for the Smithsonian or is that a valid measure?

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    Dr. O'CONNOR. That is a cottage industry in the scientific literature, sir. I might add that it has been noticed that sometimes those who are most often cited are being cited because the work was not very good. So it comes and goes.

    Mr. SKAGGS. There are good footnotes and bad footnotes.

    Dr. O'CONNOR. That is correct, sir.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Not a value-neutral commodity.


    You all sort of live at the exciting intersection of, on the one hand, the intellectual and cultural life of the country and, on the other hand, here you are at the political side of things. So I am just wondering how political correctness is doing at the Smithsonian these days.

    You have had some exciting experiences in the last few years on that. I think, not wanting to make light of it, it is important for you all to continue to push the American public to understand itself as well as possible and not be trapped by too much of the political climate in doing so.

    Mr. HEYMAN. That has been a preoccupation of mine for the three past years.

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    I have come to the view, Mr. Skaggs—this is especially relevant when we are in areas of political controversy—that we ought not shy away from the subject matter, but that what we ought to do, both in the morality of curatorship and also because it is politically wise, is to try to be as balanced as we possibly can, so that we are showing the contrary arguments and not just a single way of interpreting whatever the facts are.

    I think that that is beginning to seep into the kind of Code of Conduct in the Smithsonian. I think that it will be very interesting to see, when we have the opening of the show on sweatshops in May, the extent to which that has migrated.

    But I honestly believe, as I did when I taught for all of the years that I did, that when I was dealing with value collisions in teaching law or city planning, that I had an obligation to raise all of the arguments and not solely to present my own view. I think that is even more important in the context of museums because, at least in the context of the university, you have got active and lively students who pepper you with questions and counter-arguments, unless you are an absolute authoritarian in class, which is hard to do any more.

    In museums, you really do not have the opportunity for that kind of interaction. If your audience is going to see more than one side, you have got to do it yourself, and it is not going to come because people are asking questions or making counter-statements.

    So we talk about this a lot. I have been writing about it, and making speeches, and there are conversations that have been going on within the Institution. Clearly, not all agree with my view, but I think there are more now who do than previously was true.

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    Mr. SKAGGS. Although, your reference to university life raises an interesting possibility that you could have curator office hours of sorts, where if the interested public did want to come in and engage with those that put things together in whatever way they are put together, they could have an opportunity to have those kinds of conversations, too, and not be so passive.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Actually, we do. We really try to give the opportunities often, with panels, with seminars, with programs in which people can interact. The problem really is that, if 10,000 people see your show, 100 show up for such a panel, so that you are not reaching most of the people who go through your exhibition.

    Mr. SKAGGS. I was sort of thinking of a little sort of like Peanuts-type booth saying ''the curator is in'' over at the side of the exhibit.

    Mr. HEYMAN. It sounds like a confessional. [Laughter.]

    Mr. SKAGGS. One budget question; the forward funding request for the American Indian Museum, have we done that before, Mr. Chairman? Are we able to do that?

    Mr. REGULA. We are taking a look at that. It is unique.

    Mr. SKAGGS. I know on my other subcommittee, it is one of the most provocative things that can happen, to ask for forward funding on construction.

    Mr. HEYMAN. We were a little surprised when our request for the total came back in two parts, and I had not known that there was such a technique. But I now have the OMB guidance on the use of that technique. I have been informed, in any event, that this has been used in Defense appropriations, but I do not know if it has been used otherwise.
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    But, obviously, what it does do is that it puts off to the next fiscal year the scoring of that amount of money. From our point of view, what it does is really permit us to get going this year. It is very tough to start construction until you have all of the money, and we are okay on the private side now because we have raised all of that money or have pledges, and we can put risk capital in front of the pledges. But it is pretty hard to start until you get the whole of the Federal appropriation.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Nethercutt.


    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

    With regard to the National Museum of the American Indian, how much have you raised in private funds or have pledged?

    Mr. HEYMAN. We are really in the 40s or the low 50s in total. But for the construction of the mall museum, we have raised $36.6 million, which is a third. The original authorizing legislation proposed that the Federal Government would be no more than two-thirds. So we have always taken that as a one-third/two-third match, and we have raised our one-third.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Are you telling us that you have, in your private fund-raising undertakings, raised between $40-and $50 million?
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    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, sir.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Is there any reason why, notwithstanding the act that authorized the not more than two-thirds approach, that private money cannot support a greater proportion than one-third?

    Mr. HEYMAN. No, except that most of that was raised for specific purposes. Part of it was raised for endowment; part of it was raised for outreach; part of it was raised for activities that go on at the Haye Center in New York. In other words, most of it has come in semi-restricted because there is a campaign plan and people have given to the particular objects or objectives, rather, in that plan.

    So it is not so easy to move that money around, given that the people who contributed it contributed for specific purposes.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I am just thinking in terms of the budget restrictions we have, trying to stay within our caps, if it is not advisable to make that offer.

    Mr. HEYMAN. I understand that, sir. We did make that offer, and it was taken, with regard to the Suitland facility. That really strained our capacity to move money around because, as I understand it, in any event, what occurred was that the amounts that were unrestricted were largely used for supplementing what we thought was going to be entirely Federal funding for that building.

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    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Is there any controversy relative to the construction design or architectural design of the building or the location of the building or any of those things on the Mall at this point? Have you heard any criticism or concern?

    Mr. HEYMAN. No. Everybody has been quite happy with the conceptual drawings, what it is going to look like and its location. We are having a little difficulty right now in our relationships with the team of architects in terms of finishing the production of the construction drawings. But my able Under Secretary is taking care of that beautifully.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. What is the nature of the controversy?

    Mr. HEYMAN. I will let her explain it to you.

    Ms. NEWMAN. The contract was let in 1994——

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. The architectural contract?

    Ms. NEWMAN. The architectural contract was let in 1994 for work to be completed in June of 1998. The firm was Geddes, Brecher, Qualls & Cunningham—GBQC—with the lead architect, Doug Cardinal, who is Native American, and that is important for this particular contract for me to say that to you.

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    The design was due in June of 1997, 35 percent design was due in June. We did not receive that design and, in fact, received only 20 percent design in August.

    Then the construction documents were due in December of 1997. That meant 65 percent. We did not receive that. So we sent a cure notice to them in December and gave them until the 12th of January to respond. Their response was unsatisfactory because there was a split between the GBQC and the lead architect. We, therefore, then sent a default termination to them in January.

    At the same time, I want you to know that there is a parallel operation going on, which is an analysis of what it is we, in fact, have; what is the cost of what has been presented to us and what do we need to do to ensure that this design can come in at $110 million, close to the date that we expected it.

    But the contractor has rights. So we have the default termination, and they have a right of appeal to the Secretary.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. They, the architects?

    Ms. NEWMAN. The architectural engineers have a right of appeal. They had until the 11th of March. They, in fact, submitted an appeal on March 3rd. But they have additional documents that they have 45 days to submit. So by the 27th of March they will submit those to the Secretary, and the Secretary then will make a final determination. If he does not determine in their favor, they can then go to the U.S. Federal Claims Court.

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    So we are having the conflict, but we need to assure you that we are not stopping work. We have people analyzing and determining what it will take for us to carry this out internally with some outside consultants if the architectural engineers do not prevail in their appeal.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. What is the nature of their appeal, just in general?

    Ms. NEWMAN. They are saying that, in fact, they can now—they are talking about the future—they will get back together and that they can now present the design, the construction documents, as required, on schedule and within our costs. I should stop there. I do not want to get us into trouble.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I understand. I do not want to get you in trouble either. I am just trying to understand if there is any reasonable justification or whether we are wasting—it appears they may be some slippage here on time, and I am wondering how that might affect—I heard you say you might be able to stay on schedule notwithstanding this appeal process and so on. You feel that way?

    Ms. NEWMAN. Yes, I do.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I do not know if I have any more time left.

    Mr. REGULA. Yes, you have some additional time. We have been informal this morning.
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    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I want to turn to the National Zoo for a minute. We have had a previous hearing here where we talked about the fire protection and suppression systems at the National Zoo.

    The Subcommittee was informed at the time that you were relatively satisfied with the system currently in place at the Zoo, and I heard you testify, Mr. Chairman, about the $3.8 million to do repair and improvements at the Zoo, which includes upgrading the fire protection system.

    Has there been some change of heart relative to the fire protection system that suddenly it may not be adequate now or to what extent is there an adjustment in your prior thinking?

    Ms. NEWMAN. At the time, Mr. Congressman, that we made that observation, we were very much concerned about the imminent danger because of the problem with the fire safety system, and we have taken care of that.

    What we are now talking about is long-term upgrading of the system. But the money that was used at the outset, did take care of the problem that we had raised with you.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Mr. Nethercutt, we have an appropriation for FY 1998 of $770,000 for that, and we are seeking $120,000 this year. So it is not——
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    Mr. NETHERCUTT. So it is a small——

    Mr. HEYMAN. It is a small amount in relationship to a problem which we were able, at least it appears here, to address last year.

    Ms. NEWMAN. At a million dollars.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. What is the million dollars?

    Ms. NEWMAN. Well, it was the entire safety system that required that much upgrading, which we have taken care of by an internal reprogramming from the central repair and restoration account.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. So you spent a million?

    Ms. NEWMAN. It was close to a million.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes. In addition funds are available for fire detection and suppression, plus access safety and security, that combination, from Zoo R&R. Of that, $770,000 went into fire detection and suppression.

    Ms. NEWMAN. And we did come here for the reprogramming. We did notify you of that.

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    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I understand. And you want to do another $120,000; is that right?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Last December, I am informed, there was some wide attention given to a female researcher at the Yerkes Primate Research Center in Atlanta who died after coming in contact with a macaque monkey infected with the Herpes B virus. She got some fluid in her eye, apparently.

    You have the same kind of monkey at the National Zoo, and I am wondering if there is any danger to the public or others?

    Dr. ROBINSON. There is no danger to the public. All of the animals are behind glass, so that won't affect the public, and we have strict processes for contact with the animals. As far as I know, there are none of our monkeys that are Herpes virus carriers where staff are not aware of that and would not get involved in that kind of contact.

    [The information follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. So you are aware of it, and you are taking some precautions with your zookeepers.

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    Dr. ROBINSON. Yes, we have learned that from the Yerkes Center. We have new regulations in place. We can provide you with details of that.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. No, I just was concerned about it. I did not know if there were other people at risk, perhaps those folks that handle the animals there. I wanted to be sure you were aware.

    Thank you, Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Skaggs, do you have any additional questions?

    Mr. SKAGGS. No, sir.


    Mr. REGULA. A couple of things. What is the current condition of security at the museums and collection storage sites? Security takes on a lot of dimensions.

    Ms. NEWMAN. Mr. Chairman, we have two ways of assuring security; one is through our automated systems and the other through actual personnel.

    When we have concerns about the automated system, it means that we are required to increase or move around a higher percentage of the personnel.

    In the analysis of our needs, however, we do believe that to bring our systems up to quality required, we need close to $12 million.
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    One way that we are addressing that need is through the repair and restoration that is going on now. For example, as we go into Natural History, American History, when we go into American Art and the Portrait Gallery, we will, at the same time, build in the requirements for the network to support that system.

    The $12 million assumes, to a certain extent, that we are not going about it in that way. However, we had hoped at one time that the money that was available—the terrorism money that would be available to Federal agencies—would be available to us in order to upgrade our entire system. We are concerned that we do not have card access. We would like to upgrade our alarm monitoring. We want more closed circuit TV.

    But the truth of the matter is we are comfortable that our collections are safe, that the public and the staff are safe because we have altered the personnel balance in order to ensure that.

    Mr. REGULA. So you would classify it as adequate, at least.

    Ms. NEWMAN. It is for now, but the preferred strategy is for us to upgrade that system and be able to reduce the level of personnel and to have a much more sophisticated process.

    I want to say to you that we are not concerned about the safety. However, it is in the Institution's best interest over the near term to repair and to restore to the Institution a more sophisticated system.
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    Mr. REGULA. I note, Mr. Secretary, that the Pew Charitable Trust has indicated an interest, as part of the millennium celebration, providing $5 million if it were to be matched by $5 million Federal to restore the Star Spangled Banner. What is the status of that?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Well, I think that Pew has gone even a little further than that, at least in its own mind; that should the Congress respond to the request that has come for millennium funds and should we get $3 million of that, they would be willing to credit some of our regular budget that has been utilized in relationship to the Star Spangled Banner as part of that $5 million.

    They have also indicated to us that they would help us seek to raise some additional money from other foundations. So they are being very cooperative, and I am really quite confident that the grant from Pew will come through.

    Mr. REGULA. In this budget, do you have the money for the Smithsonian match or would that have to come in the——

    Mr. HEYMAN. No, we have that—not the $3 million, but $2 million we would be able to work out from base budget, yes. We would not need an additional.

    Mr. REGULA. But you would need the additional $3 million.
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    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, we would need the additional $3 million. I mean, we would need the $3 million, and we can find enough credits in American History budget for the $2 million.

    Mr. REGULA. So you would need that in your Fiscal Year 2000.

    Ms. NEWMAN. No, 1999.

    Mr. REGULA. You need it in 1999, the $3 million?

    Mr. HEYMAN. I believe that in the President's budget there is a request for $50 million next year; $25 million to go to Federal agencies, and we would get some portion of that $25 million.

    Mr. REGULA. So you would anticipate it would be part of that.

    Mr. HEYMAN. If that comes through, and I keep my fingers crossed.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Yates.

    Mr. YATES. Thank you. Hi, how are you?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Hello, Mr. Yates.
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    Mr. YATES. Hi, Mike.

    Tell me how your 150th anniversary show went. Do I have the impression that you came out of that with a debt?

    Mr. HEYMAN. We came out with a debt. We were talking about that before. We have come out with a debt, which we are reducing by a variety of means, by other kinds of arrangements with the sponsors; one is the NOVUS credit card. We are going to put whatever is earned on that towards that debt. We also have the possibility that is being explored by the Under Secretary for an international tour. It would not be the same artifacts, but that would be a tour, which would, if it occurs, be profitable, and we would apply the profit of that towards the debt.

    Thereafter, we would simply absorb the remainder in trust funds and view ''America's Smithsonian'', as the Regents have, as an investment of the Institution for a whole bunch of purposes. The Capital Campaign that will be forthcoming, and the Affiliations Program that seems to be picking up steam around the country, and the portion which we cannot match, we will view as an investment to get us around the country.

    But you know, Mr. Yates, that ''America's Smithsonian'' had over 3 million people visit it, and now it is in Washington in the Ripley Center. So people in Washington, D.C. have the opportunity to see it, too.

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    Mr. YATES. How was the debt incurred? Were there not enough people to see the show?

    Mr. HEYMAN. We did not charge admission, you will recall.

    Mr. YATES. Oh, I see.

    Mr. HEYMAN. We based this all on sponsorships, and we did not get as many sponsors as we had hoped.

    Mr. YATES. I see. How long do you think it will take to pay it off?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Well, five years. That is what we have been thinking of—a five-year range.

    Mr. YATES. That is pretty good. It is a big debt, is it not?

    Mr. HEYMAN. It is in the 20s. I am not exactly sure where it is in the 20s now, but it is in the 20s.


    Mr. YATES. How is the condition of your buildings?

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    Mr. HEYMAN. Do you want to talk about that a little bit, Under Secretary Newman?

    Ms. NEWMAN. Yes. We have conducted a major analysis of our buildings; the status of the HVAC systems, the roofs, the facade, to determine where, given their age, where they are on a continuum, and we have established priorities based on the age of the building and the actual determination of the condition of the building.

    We have determined that American Art and the Portrait Gallery and, later, the Arts and Industries Building and the Castle, are the three remaining buildings that require immediate—or fairly immediate, within the next two or three years—attention.

    Mr. YATES. How much money will you need for those?

    Ms. NEWMAN. We are saying that we really need for those buildings and for our buildings, generally, a level of $50 million a year in order to bring those up to the level that is required and to keep the other buildings at a level required; that we would need to maintain $50 million a year.

    We are saying that we have——

    Mr. YATES. How many years?

    Ms. NEWMAN. We are saying forever because, you see, we restored Freer and Sackler, and that is in good condition. But, as time goes on, the systems that were put in there will require attention. So we are saying there is a cycle and, given the cycle, it requires a certain level of investment each year to keep all of the 300 buildings at a status that we require.
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    Mr. YATES. I hope the reporter caught the incredulity in my voice. [Laughter.]

    I remember, some years ago, we put money in the budget to pay for restoring the glass roofs of the Smithsonian buildings. Do you remember that? Did you ever do that?

    Ms. NEWMAN. Do you mean for the National Gallery?

    Mr. YATES. Not for the National Gallery. I am talking about glass roofs——

    Ms. NEWMAN. At the Freer. At the Freer, we did do that.

    Mr. YATES. Are they in shape now?

    Ms. NEWMAN. Yes.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, we are presently doing it at the Air and Space Museum. All of that glass is getting replaced.

    Ms. NEWMAN. The windows.

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    Mr. YATES. Is your budget adequate for your purposes? [Laughter.]

    Mr. HEYMAN. One could always use more, but, yes. If we can continue the tradition of getting our mandatories and our inflation adjustment so that we can keep up our base, we have the right kind of flexibility so that, in general, it is an adequate budget.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me follow up simply to say if our allocation requires that there be less——

    Mr. HEYMAN. Then we have troubles.

    Mr. REGULA. But you will be able to prioritize for us.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, sir. If it turns out that way, I would appreciate what you have done in the past, which is to permit me to confer with you about that.

    Mr. REGULA. Indeed, we will. Once we know what we are dealing with, we will get back to you.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Thank you.


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    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Just a couple of more questions.

    How much money is spent on Smithsonian research, how much in your budget would you estimate?

    Mr. HEYMAN. We are looking it up. This is a very hard question. The reason that it is a hard question is that people who do research are also doing exhibitions, by and large, and it is very hard to allocate between the two.

    For instance, putting aside scientific research at the moment, if you are in an art museum, and there are seven, most of the research that occurs is in the preparation of catalogues for shows, and whether to think about that in exhibit terms or research terms is just hard.

    Also, we do research in Air and Space and in Natural History. In Natural History it is a little easier because there are some people who only do research and do not do exhibitions. But in most of the other places it is a mixed bag. We have been testing systems of having people try to put their time into different categories. We have only had one year of that experience. We are not very satisfied with it yet, but it will be the first attempt that we have made to discern between program exhibition, on the one hand, and research on the other.

    I have said in the past that, by and large, it is about 50/50, and I think that will probably bear out.

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    Mr. NETHERCUTT. 50/50 of what?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Of exhibition and research, when you look at that part of our—that is our output, basically; our exhibitions, other public programs, and research. That is what we do. I have thought about it in terms of something like, roughly, half and half.

    But, as I say, it is very imprecise because it is very hard to allocate amongst many of the individuals. It is a little like universities in that sense.


    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I have been a reader of the Smithsonian Magazine. I find it very interesting. I, in fact, read an article some time ago on methyl bromide for agricultural uses.

    Following up on Mr. Skaggs' line of questioning and the Chairman's, I just was thinking we have the National Science Foundation; we have the Department of Agriculture; we have all of the universities that do, literally, billions of dollars' worth of research, around this country; we have NIH; we have tremendous resources, and I am wondering, No. 1, just for the record, how can you justify—I do not mean that in an offensive way—justify for the committee why the Smithsonian ought to be doing any scientific research, as opposed to feeding off of the other governmental resources and university resources, assuming that there is some substantial cost to it, and, second of all, is there a charge in the mission of the Smithsonian to do scientific research and present it?
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    Mr. HEYMAN. The Smithsonian, really, its strategic plan, if you will, built in from the very beginning was the Smithson bequest, which is the beginning of the whole Smithsonian, and he left this money for the increase and diffusion of knowledge, and it was taken from the very beginning that increase really meant research. As a matter of fact, the first Secretary of the Smithsonian, Joseph Henry, viewed the Smithsonian solely as a research institution and did not see it having other roles.

    He saw it collecting some, but only in relationship to research, and the research product would be by scholarly papers and by like kinds of product.

    The second Secretary of the Institution, Spencer Baird, was a naturalist, and he also was the assistant secretary or under secretary for Henry. He had a lot of objects, natural objects, and he believed that not only should we be doing research on those natural objects—many of them were the product of Western exploration—but he thought we also ought to exhibit them.

    We have gone along from the very beginning balancing research with exhibition and other kinds of public programs.

    What happens, of course, is that we get our niches. I would be happy—and it is hard to do here to take us through the whole of the Institution—but what you find, for instance, presently, is that our chief research institute that is also a museum, which is Natural History, has a niche.

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    It really is, as I was saying before, the archive of the United States, as far as natural objects are concerned, and I would say thank goodness for that because at the university level, as people have become more and more interested in molecular genetics and a variety of other experimental kinds of analyses, we have persisted in keeping this collection, which others are giving up. I can take you through universities around the United States that are going out of the business of keeping objects, systemizing in terms of those collections, and having them available for a whole variety of research that still is exceedingly useful.

    I would say that if the Smithsonian gave that up and gave up the associated collection management and analysis of that material, we would leave a big hole in the future with respect to the natural sciences in the United States.

    I can take you through other things that we do, which you can see historically how they came to pass, and what are the niches that they are covering. If you take the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, which is now one of the premiere astronomy units in the world, it fits right into what is happening with NASA and with NSF because much of its funding comes from them, and it is a principal agency now that is carrying out missions for them in terms of managing those missions and doing a lot of the basic research that occurs.

    Part of that is historical accident, just like institutions always grow. If you look at what is happening at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, it is probably the premiere tropical biology institution in the world, and that happens because of its location. It was there. It had people in it who were aggressive, in terms of building it. It is not duplicative research.

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    In fact, people who are interested in that come from other places to it and become resident scholars and do their research there. But I think we could go through the whole of the science program in the Smithsonian and show that it is differentiated from others. It is related, but it has its own special niches, and it is darn good, and it would be a shame to give that up, at least from my perspective, as an undertaking.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I understand. I am not surprised that you would feel that way.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Passionately. [Laughter.]

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I know.

    Mr. YATES. That is the purpose of Smithsonian, actually, is to do research, and if research is not to be continued, I would hope it would be from another institution that the research was taken away because that has been the Smithsonian's job, that has been its function, and it has been outstanding in the field of research.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I learned a lot about methyl bromide. I am just wondering why the Smithsonian is doing methyl bromide research, that is all.

    Could you, for the record——

    Mr. HEYMAN. Mr. Nethercutt, I doubt if we are. About ten percent of the contents of Smithsonian Magazine have to do with what is happening at the Smithsonian. It is viewed at the Smithsonian as an independent activity. So that most of what it writes about is happening outside of the Smithsonian. I would be surprised if we were doing that research there.
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    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Would you kindly, for the record, advise the committee of the answer to the question about how much is devoted to research at the Smithsonian.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, we shall.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Thank you very much.

    [The information follows:]


    In FY 1997 the Institution spent approximately $85 million or 26 percent of the Salaries and Expenses account on research.

    Mr. REGULA. Anyone else?

    Mr. SKAGGS. As evidence that the Smithsonian's magazine subject matter extends way beyond the Smithsonian, they had a piece, which I am actually going to give you a note about, a piece a couple of years ago, last fall, about Congress and behavior of Congress. [Laughter.]

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I would like to get the citation on that one. [Laughter.]

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    Mr. SKAGGS. If there is a curator down there working on Congress, we really ought to know about it. [Laughter.]


    Mr. REGULA. I want to close the hearing, but I think Mr. Nethercutt has a point, and that is, whether it is the materials in storage, whether it is research, I think you should constantly have a critical analysis to determine if this is relevant in 1998 and prospectively in the future because it is all expensive. I think, as far as the eye can see, you are going to be constantly faced with prioritization.

    I would like to put $50 million in backlog maintenance, and I would like to deal with the problems at the Zoo. But to do that, it has to come from somewhere else. So it becomes a management function of saying are the 99 percent, give or take, of things that are in storage are they all relevant either today or at some time in the future, or should you be doing some de-accessing, I guess is the word, to avoid building new buildings. New buildings mean people, they mean heat, and light, and air conditioning, in many instances. They are expensive.

    Mr. YATES. Mr. Chairman, on that point, there is a rumor that Renwick is going to be converted to a presidential museum. [Laughter.]

    Mr. HEYMAN. There are lots of rumors.

    Mr. YATES. That is not true.

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    Mr. HEYMAN. No, I must say that from time to time I have thought would it not be nice if we took all of the things in the Smithsonian that related to the presidency and had them next to the White House, but I think the obstacles to doing that are considerable.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Mr. Chairman, may I just interrupt?

    Mr. REGULA. Yes.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. I might say, too, out in Spokane, Washington, my hometown and the center of my district, there is an Indian museum that is proposed, and I suggest to you that the Cheney Coles Museum there would welcome, excess items, in the broadest sense without derogating from their value. This may be something to think about in terms of the other museums that are not Smithsonian, but are around the country who may welcome some of the things that you must leave in storage.

    Mr. HEYMAN. We would be delighted. You know we have started this Affiliations Program, and we would be delighted of a showing of interest, and then we could start a conversation, and I am sure something could come of it. So, please, if you could give them the word, we would be appreciative.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


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    Mr. REGULA. I think it is a great idea, and you have pursued that path.

    In the 12,000 hits a month that you got on your Web site——

    Dr. O'CONNOR. 12 million, sir.

    Mr. REGULA. Wait a minute, 12 million a month?

    Dr. O'CONNOR. It is 12 million, right.

    Mr. REGULA. Is this all from people seeking information? What kind of hits do you get in that 12 million?

    Dr. O'CONNOR. The hits tend to follow the behavior of people that would visit the Mall physically. About 20 percent are from overseas. The most significantly visited pages are Air and Space followed by Natural History followed by American History and the Zoo. The demographics are also interesting.

    Mr. REGULA. That is fantastic. Does this develop an e-mail message from those people that are taking advantage of your Internet facilities saying, ''We think you ought to have this on''? Constructive criticism, I guess, is——

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes. Yes, quite a bit.

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    Mr. REGULA. Do you get some of that?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, quite a bit.

    Mr. REGULA. Other than from this committee? [Laughter.]

    Mr. HEYMAN. A lot of it is invited. Comments are invited at a number of the sites.

    Mr. REGULA. Is that right?

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. That is very interesting.

    Well, there will be questions for the record, and we will be back to you on priorities.


    Mr. Moran, would you like to introduce your guests here?

    Mr. MORAN. They are all from Mount Vernon High School, and they are all the best students in the Governments Class. They decided, even though the President is up here speaking, that they would learn more by coming to this Appropriations hearing under Chairman Regula and listening to the Smithsonian Institution. [Laughter.]
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    Mr. REGULA. Yes, they are the brightest students. [Laughter.]

    Mr. MORAN. That is right. That puts us in line for a grant some day, if we can think of something——


    Mr. MORAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for letting me introduce them.


    I have three small areas to ask about.

    Incidently, it is phenomenal to me how great a job Mrs. Newman can do with the Smithsonian and the Financial Control Board. This woman must never sleep. I used to know her at HEW, when she worked for the Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation, and was taking care of migrant farm workers. She has a phenomenal record of public service.

    But anyway, let me get back to the point. One thing I wanted to say, is that it is so exciting what the Smithsonian is doing with regard to making its collections available throughout the country. I know you must have talked about this, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Nethercutt, but, boy, leading the way, making this truly a national institution, I just can't thank you enough for that kind of initiative.
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    I read an interesting thing, that you are going to get into the movie-making business. The Washington Post reported yesterday that you signed an agreement to produce full-length, made-for-TV-movies, with Mandalay Television Pictures and Showtime Networks, and you are going to be drawing from your vast collections of artifacts and materials. You are going to do three films, and it is going to give credibility to these films, obviously.

    I want to know, is this the kind of thing that you are going to be expanding? Do you keep creative control over these movies? Is this the start of something really big or is this just kind of putting your foot in the water to see how it works?

    Mr. HEYMAN. That is a very good question. We have been dealing with a Hollywood agent, the Creative Artist Agency, seeing whether there was some fit between the Smithsonian and media of the sort that film, TV, and other kind of productions.

    We have been talking about this and looking at opportunities now for the last year-and-a-half. This is the first one that is working.

    Whether this is a harbinger of a lot that will work, I just do not know. I think that you put your finger on a very interesting fact, which is that we have to retain a considerable amount of responsibility for content, for all of the obvious reasons, and that is hard for producers and directors to live with when they are in the business of making money.

    So whether we can really pull this off, I do not know. I think this will be a very interesting experiment to see whether this works well. I hope we will because, if we do, that means that is yet another way that the Smithsonian can get out with its materials and its stories.
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    Mr. MORAN. Yes. Good.


    The second area was getting the Smithsonian on line—getting all of this wonderful material on line. A lot of people are asking us, they see a little bit of it, and they are asking how much are you putting in to getting it all on line? You have got another $3 million for digitization in the budget. Are you going to make exhibits, virtual exhibits, on-line to people around the world that may not be able to come to Washington, but could experience it through the Internet?

    Mr. HEYMAN. We are doing two things at the moment; one is we are putting exhibitions on line, and we have a number on line now, and we are even designing one that is specifically for the Web. It is not simply replicating an exhibition in a museum.

    Secondly, we are trying to digitize as many two- and three-dimensional objects as we can in the Smithsonian and have them available for people to see, together with explanatory text. The monies that we are seeking, in terms of our base, are largely to enlarge that number of digital images and have them in a system in which you or I or anybody else who wishes can find them and find something about them that accompanies the image.

    Mr. MORAN. Again, that is terrific, and it broadens the base of support for the Smithsonian.

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    One last area.

    Mr. HEYMAN. Yes, sir.


    Mr. MORAN. That is the National Zoo. There is a report out recently that shows that about four of the parts of the property there are in serious need of repair, and we have people throughout the Metropolitan Washington area that are concerned about this.

    They put in money through FONZ, and I know you get some private contributions. I doubt the private contributions represent a lot in terms of percentages. Are the animal habitats compromised by the current conditions at the facility and is there enough money in this budget to upgrade those facilities that came out wanting in the last report that just came out? That is, the last area I am going to ask about, Mr. Chairman.

    Ms. NEWMAN. I think we can say that we are comfortable that this request, in addition to a request that we will be making in the future based on an analysis of all of the facilities there, will be adequate for the Zoo.

    We are not concerned about the health and safety of the people working there or the visitors, nor are we——

    Mr. MORAN. I think, actually, these people are more concerned about the animals.
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    Ms. NEWMAN. Well, I was going with the animals. Nor are we concerned about the conditions for the animals. What we do know, though, is that, given the age of the facilities, that we are going to have to go through the same kind of analysis there as we have gone through for the rest of the Institution, and we are in the process of doing that.

    I do not know if the director wants to add——

    Dr. ROBINSON. Well, certainly, I do not think any animals are in substandard conditions at all anywhere in the Zoo.

    Mr. MORAN. They all seem pretty happy, especially that gibbon. But you do not know, and, apparently, the report implied that some of the habitats may be compromised, but I doubt that you would let that happen.

    Dr. ROBINSON. No. In the short-term, there are repairs needed, and this has been accumulating, as with the rest of the Smithsonian over the years, and we have been very assiduous in dealing with this. I think you will find—we should invite you to come and have a look at the Zoo and its new image and see if you feel that.

    Mr. MORAN. That is terrific. This is probably the only group of witnesses that would use terms like assiduous or as impressive as assiduous. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. They hope they are. [Laughter.]

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    Mr. MORAN. Thank you. You are doing a great job in every aspect. And all of the people that work with you I think are just really professional, first-class. So thank you.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Closing Remarks

    Mr. REGULA. I want to thank all of you. We have had a good hearing, and we will be communicating with you once we know what our priorities are as a committee, so that we can achieve the best possible use of the funds available.

    I hope that you will continue to evaluate all of your operations to make them as cost-effective as possible. I always remember in World War II when they issued stickers to everybody to put on the dashboard of your car that said, ''Is this trip really necessary?'' because of the enormous fuel shortage. I think you have to take the same approach in any institution; is this function really necessary? Is it serving a good, useful purpose?

    Thank you. We are recessed until 1:30.

    [The following questions and answers were submitted for the record:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

Thursday, March 12, 1998.
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    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA [presiding]. We're underway here.

    We're pleased to welcome Kathryn Higgins, am I right?

    Ms. HIGGINS. It's Kitty Higgins.

    Mr. REGULA. Kitty Higgins, and Ms. Scott Shanklin-Peterson, am I right?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. That's correct.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay. Well, we're pleased to welcome you here today. Your statements will be made a part of the record, and so if you'd like to summarize for us. You may proceed.
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    Ms. HIGGINS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a pleasure to meet you and to be here today.

    I've been serving as the Acting Chair of the National Endowment for the last 5 months. As you know, since Jane Alexander resigned last fall, the President had to ask someone who had been confirmed by the Senate to serve in this capacity. So in my day job, I'm the Deputy Secretary for the Department of Labor. But it's a lot of fun for me to work with Scott and her team.


    One of the things that I've had to do, working with Scott and others, is to help convene the National Council. We met just a couple of weeks ago and welcomed six new members—colleagues from the House and Senate—to serve as new members of the Council. As you may recall from last year's appropriations bill, the size of the Council was reduced. When we added the six new members——

    Mr. REGULA. I had a little to do with that.

    Ms. HIGGINS. I thought you might have.

    One of the things that I think we've discovered and I think we would like to work with you on is the fact that by reducing the size in terms of voting members, there are a number of the disciplines that right now don't have expertise represented on the Council. So I think we would like to talk to the committee about taking a look at that as to whether it might not make sense to expand it a little bit to give us the opportunity to make sure all of the disciplines that the Endowment deals with are covered.
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    Bill Ivey, who has been nominated, and with whom I think you have had a chance to meet, will hopefully be confirmed by the Senate soon. He's, I think, going to be a great addition and a great chair.

    The two messages that we heard most clearly from the new members—new colleagues—of the Council, were the need to expand the reach of the Endowment to communities that are under-served and to focus more on arts education. Those are two things that I know are probably not new issues to you, but we had, I think, a very good discussion with your colleagues and members of the Council about those two areas as priorities. Scott and I are both prepared to talk today about how we expect to do that.


    I wanted to share with you and for the record the experience I had last year when the city of Grand Forks, North Dakota, as you may recall, was affected by the floods, and how devastating that was to them. I think everybody in the country saw the effect of the floods and the fires on that city. One of the facilities that was preserved miraculously in Grand Forks was the North Dakota Museum of Art. It is a NEA grantee, and I spoke today with its director. Their story is, I think, emblematic of what the NEA is all about.

    The North Dakota Museum of Art is a museum that showcases contemporary artists. When the city was basically under water, and in the aftermath—and they are still cleaning up out there—the arts museum became a community center. Church services are held there. The dance companies now practice there. Various community groups meet there on a regular basis. It already was, in many ways, the heart and soul of the community, but after the devastation, it has become even more so. The director asked me to tell you that in Grand Forks her museum is a tremendous advocate for the NEA because it has allowed them to bring things to North Dakota that would otherwise not be there. Not only, you know, the museum itself, but also the kinds of art and experiences that folks in that part of the country don't often get to see.
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    Mr. REGULA. I suggest she write me a letter with that information.

    Ms. HIGGINS. Absolutely.

    Mr. REGULA. I'd like to have that.

    Ms. HIGGINS. She would. She's more than happy to share their experiences with you. She said to me—and you can appreciate this from the part of the country you come from—she said, you know: the Chicago museum calls her about wanting to see if the museum in North Dakota is interested in photography exhibits of farmers. And she said: ''We know all about farmers in North Dakota, we want to experience other things.'' So she's had many, many other exhibits and she's willing to be a very strong advocate for the Endowment.


    Let me just mention in terms of under-served communities, ArtsReach, which Scott will talk about, is a brand new initiative that will do much, I think, to make sure that the Endowment's work reaches all parts of the country that are now under-served. That is something we're very excited about. Part of the new money that the President is requesting over last year's appropriations will go in substantial measure to support the ArtsREACH effort.

    Mr. REGULA. I'd like to make a suggestion at this juncture. Whenever a grant is made, please send a notice to the Member whose district is affected.
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    Ms. HIGGINS. You know, we've——

    Mr. REGULA. I think Members would welcome that and it would broaden the base of support for this program.

    Ms. HIGGINS. Absolutely. That's an initiative, and we've, again, heard from your colleagues. It is something they were very concerned about. We will do that. I think it's already done, but I think we probably need to work at it harder and make sure that the Members are contacted directly and that we do a coordinated press effort to make sure you know what's being done.


    So, we've also, as you perhaps know, worked very closely with the Conference of Mayors to make sure that the cities in this country are working closely with the Endowment to make the arts available in their communities. And that's, I think, been a very positive effort. I was part of an award celebration a few weeks ago where the mayors from all across this country recognized the contributions that were being made in many places by the Endowment. In particular, Senator Gorton and Congresswoman Louise Slaughter were singled out by the mayors as two Members of Congress who had done a lot to help them in preserving arts in their communities.


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    Arts education is an area, again, we could all agree is extremely important. The Endowment spends money in this area. I think the State Arts councils probably do a lot of work as well. It's an area where the new money the President has requested would do more. Leonard Slatkin spoke to our Council recently. He's the wonderful, relatively new director of the National Symphony, and he talked about the high school that he went to in Los Angeles. When he was in high school there, he said that there were three choruses, two bands, and one orchestra, all in one public high school in Los Angeles. He said, now it's been two generations since citizens of much of our public schools have had the benefit of those kinds of programs. He said his old school is now an armed camp. So he is a big proponent of arts education. He talked to the Council about the kind of work he hopes to do here in Washington in terms of arts education. He's somebody else who the committee may want to talk to in terms of his views on arts education.


    One of the areas that we are working on at the Endowment is how to involve other Federal agencies. The Department of Labor, for example, does a lot of work with unemployed and disadvantaged young people. The arts are something that we have supported in certain communities. We've got a terrific program in upstate New York, in Poughkeepsie where they have used some of the Federal money that we provide to match with the funding from the New York State Arts Council to make sure that young people get some exposure and training in skills that they can then use in the labor market.

    We at the Labor Department are about to sign a memorandum of understanding with the NEA, again so we can work more closely in partnership on things like arts education for young people. There are now 30 agreements that the NEA has with other Federal agencies to work in partnership and expand the reach of the Endowment.
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    Let me say that—and Scott will make a few remarks—one of the things that I've been struck by in my brief tenure working with the NEA is in fact how effective this organization is. I know there's a lot of concern about administrative funding. But the NEA has just 150 employees for its $98 million budget. The Labor Department, which is the agency I serve as Deputy Secretary, has 17,000 employees and a budget of $35 billion. The NEA last year awarded 1,000 grants and manages another 4,200 or so at any given point in time with those 150 employees. The Labor Department, and admittedly we are an enforcement agency as well as a grant making agency, last year awarded 1,300 grants, so just a couple hundred more than the NEA, and yet we have a much larger resource base and a much larger field structure, frankly, to do our work. Now, I'm not suggesting that you fund the NEA—[laughter]—at the expense of the Labor Department. But I am saying——

    Mr. REGULA. I thought we were going to fund the Labor Department on the basis of their size. [Laughter.]

    Ms. HIGGINS. That's what I'm worried about. So I want to, for the record, make sure that we're coming for more too.

    But my point is, that when we talk about administrative—how much is spent on administrative funding—I think we have to look at the workload of the agency. And one indicator is the number of grants, plus all the other wonderful work they do. So, I want to just say that for the record.
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    And I would also hope this year that the committee and the House would actually be able to pass an appropriations bill for the Endowment because I do think it's important that the agency be fully funded. I know we worked it out in conference last year, but I think it would be great to see if we could get some funding this year.

    Let me stop there and ask Scott to talk to you about some of the other work we are doing.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Thank you, Kitty, and thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. I really appreciate the opportunity to testify today about the importance of the National Endowment for the Arts where I serve as Senior Deputy Chairman. Since the retirement of our former Chairman, Jane Alexander, I've been serving as the chief operating officer and we have certainly enjoyed working with Kitty Higgins and appreciate the Department of Labor allowing her to have this second job as our Acting Chairman.


    Before joining Jane Alexander's staff in 1996, I was Executive Director of the South Carolina Arts Commission for 13 years, and on the staff 8 years prior to that. So I've had 21 years of experience working with State and local leaders to develop the State's cultural resources and ensure that the arts are a basic part of each child's education in South Carolina. So I know first hand how important the Endowment has been to the development of the arts and arts education in South Carolina and many other states.
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    The Endowment, through our partnership grant to the State, helped to develop local arts agencies and local arts centers in about 50 rural communities such as McCormick, and Anderson, and Camden. Through a direct grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, the Endowment was the first investor in the Spoleto Festival, USA, in Charleston which is our Nation's leading international arts festival. It has an economic impact estimated at over $73 million per year for that city. And I've heard Mayor Joe Riley from Charleston say many times that Spoleto Festival, USA would not have happened in Charleston without the National Endowment for the Arts.

    And because of the National Endowment's leadership and support in the areas of arts education, South Carolina's schools now have one of the country's strongest arts education programs. And just last night, I received at home, totally unsolicited, an article from a newsletter sent by a former representative in South Carolina, Harriet Keyserling, that is from her school district in Beaufort County, South Carolina, where they have 19 schools. They currently have 75 full-time arts specialists working in their schools, and they have an aggregate of 65 weeks of artists in residence in those schools, which is really truly amazing. And this would not have happened without the leadership from the National Endowment for the Arts.


    The mission and support of the Endowment is really vital to the future of our country. And I'm honored to be here today to support the President's request of $136 million next year for our agency. The Endowment is a very small agency, as Kitty has pointed out, but it is still the Nation's largest single source of funding for the non-commercial arts. It's the engine that drives other public and private investment in the arts and we boost the economy.
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    I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, as well as your many colleagues and let you know how much we appreciate the hard fight that you fought to preserve the National Endowment last year and to create a workable, bipartisan compromise that enabled our 1998 funding to go forward.

    The President has requested an additional $38 million, and that will enable us and Congress to help communities preserve and celebrate America's living cultural heritage—a goal that is shared by millions of Americans in every region. It will also permit us to expand our new pilot program, ArtsREACH and it will enable the Endowment to continue supporting learning opportunities for the arts for our children and support creative alternatives for youth at risk. And through our partnerships with our State Arts agencies and regional organizations, we will be able to expand access to the arts across the country.


    Mr. REGULA. Tell me about the ArtsREACH Program since you mentioned it.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Okay. That was what I wanted to talk about next. I know that you all have been very concerned about the distribution of dollars from the Endowment across the country and we have as well. And one of the programs that we have just started, and I'm pleased to announce it today, is an initiative called ArtsREACH. We will pilot this program this year with 1998 funds. It's a new grants program for communities in States that we consider to be under-represented in our pool of direct grants and it is accompanied by targeted technical assistance. It was approved by the National Council on the Arts at their meeting 2 weeks ago, and, as Kitty said, it was approved with very enthusiastic support from the new congressional members.
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    The purpose is to strengthen the role of the arts in communities, and to increase support for the arts, and to broaden the geographic distribution of the National Endowment's direct grants. We have designated 20 States that we consider to be under-represented as they have received five or less grants either this year or last year.

    We've also developed at the Endowment a staff technical assistance team that will travel to these States to provide technical assistance, and to conduct workshops.

    Mr. REGULA. There are 20 States that had five or fewer grants.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. That's direct grants.

    Mr. REGULA. Direct grants, yes.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. They still received the funding for their partnership agreement with the State arts agencies in addition to that.

    Mr. REGULA. No, I understand that. So this is designed to reach out.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. This is designed to reach out to those 20 States. And then we will also we will send our staff out to provide technical assistance so that we can help those organizations submit additional competitive grants. And we'll be working closely with the State and local arts agencies as we do that. Just this past week we had one staff member that spent 3 days in Tennessee working with organizations there. This week the Director of our Guidelines Office is in South Dakota and in North Dakota, and in a couple weeks, one of our staff members will be in Alabama touring the State with the State's arts agency director and also a member of Senator Sessions' staff. And Senator Sessions was interested in the ArtsREACH program. He wanted to make sure that people in Alabama were aware of it.
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    It will provide grants to arts organizations and communities in these targeted States, and we hope to be able to reach about 75 to 100 communities this year. The objective is to help community leaders use the arts to build stronger communities, and to revitalize the role of the arts in their communities, and to really increase their commitment to supporting the arts.


    One example is in Rock Hill, South Carolina, which is a small city that's located about 15 miles from Charlotte, North Carolina. In the late-1980s, they had 17 percent unemployment, and they had 12 textile mills that closed. The Mayor, Betty Jo Rhea, in the late-1980s attended the Mayor's Institute on City Design, a program that the Endowment began in 1986 to help mayors use design to address community problems. She came back very inspired. She brought the community together, and they developed a comprehensive plan to use the arts and design to revitalize downtown Rock Hill and to improve the economy of Rock Hill. In 1991, based on the strong plans that they had developed there, the National Endowment for the Arts awarded them a $150,000 grant which was then matched by $600,000 in local government and private sector support from the Rock Hill area. Now today, they have outdoor sculpture throughout the city, they have a new arts center, they have artist studios on Main Street, and they have an annual arts festival. They also have a two booming industrial parks, and they have low unemployment rate of 2.2 percent. So Rock Hill has become a community where people want to live. It's become a community where industries want to locate. Mayor Rhea credits the National Endowment for the Arts for stimulating this development.

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    This is only one example. There are others, such as Shreveport, Louisiana; Rapid City, South Dakota; and many other communities across the country that have been involved in community cultural planning.


    In addition, we hope that ArtsREACH will help these same organizations become more competitive not only for Endowment funds but also for local government funds, for State funds, and for funds from the private sector. Research that has been conducted by Americans for the Arts, which is our partner in this project, indicates that local arts agencies in communities where cultural plans have been developed are able to raise 33 percent more funding than those that have no such plans.


    Mr. REGULA. How many States have a State arts agency, and do they all support them with State funds?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. All States have State arts agencies. And yes, they definitely supporting them. This year they are support them at a total of about $306 million, which is a 12 percent increase over last year. So I think that really reflects strong public support for the arts throughout the country.


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    We're proposing that we allocate $20 million of the President's proposed $136 million budget request to support ArtsREACH so that we can expand the number of communities that we'll be able to reach next year, in 1999, so we can provide funding for the specific grant applications that they would be developing through the ArtsREACH process this year, and also be able to support other project applications from the 20 States.

    We've taken a number of other actions to expand the distribution of our grants. We have review panelists that will be recruited from all of these under-represented States. We have made sure that panel appointments are made from all of the States in the country and that they are all represented. We have added geographic impact to our review criteria. And we've worked with the State arts agencies to design a new Folk Arts Infrastructure Initiative which will reach over 30 States this year. And the millennium projects which we will be funding this year will be designed to reach all 50 States. And also, in accordance with the Congressional directive, we are monitoring our grant awards to make sure that no more than 15 percent is awarded to any one State, excluding the multi-State grants.


    I want to stress the importance of our multi-State grants. Congress asked us to establish a category to support grants that have a multi-State or national impact. This is one of the most important roles that the Arts Endowment can play, and that's helping arts organizations to share their living cultural heritage across State lines. You have a map in front of you which illustrates just three grants that the Endowment has funded in the past and the outreach that these three grants have. There is the National Dance Project that's located in Boston for which we provided a $1 million grant to the New England Foundation for the Arts.
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    Mr. REGULA. You'd better wrap up in about 2 minutes because we're going to have to go and vote.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Okay. This supported 117 different dance performances in 32 States last year. So although the grant went to Boston, the impact was felt Nationwide. The Chronos Quartet from San Francisco received a grant tour to 13 communities across the country. The Minneapolis Children's Theater received a grant to develop the Mark Twain Story Book and tour 35 communities in 9 States.

    [The map follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."


    The other thing I would like to mention real quickly is arts education. You know that this is a priority of our agency. And we believe that all children should have a sequential education in the arts that is linked to content standards and taught by qualified teachers and also regularly engages artists and arts organizations. We've worked closely with organizations at the national level. And Principal Magazine this month features—its total issue—is related to arts education. We have a strong partnership there. And we've also developed a brochure which you have in front of you that outlines the Endowment's arts education program.

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    Mr. REGULA. We'll have to suspend here while we vote. And we'll reconvene as soon as we finish voting.


    Mr. REGULA. Well, we'll reconvene. I hope we don't have another vote for a while. Are you finished? Would you like to say anything further?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. I think I'm fine. Thank you.

    [The information follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."


    Mr. REGULA. Okay. I just wanted, initially, to talk about the changes that we made in the 1998 bill. Is the 15 percent cap working out? Of course, it's probably too early to know.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. It's working.

    Mr. REGULA. And I think you have enough——

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. And we're able to track the grants that we're awarding to each State.
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    Mr. REGULA. I think the ArtsREACH Program will probably broaden the base considerably, from what you are telling me about it.


    Mr. REGULA. And I presume that the States are pleased to have a little extra percentage of the distribution.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. They are.

    Mr. REGULA. How are their budgets going, generally? Do you know? I know Ohio is up.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Right, they're going up. They are up by 12 percent this year.

    Mr. REGULA. Overall.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Yes, that's correct.


    Mr. REGULA. It's probably too new to know how well it works out, but I would think having Members of the House and Senate on the council should, in the long term, work out well.
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    Ms. HIGGINS. I should think—I think both sides were a little uneasy.

    Mr. REGULA. I understand.

    Ms. HIGGINS. But I think it was successful—there was a very good discussion. And I think, as Scott mentioned, Senator Sessions is very interested in expanding the reach of the NEA. His folks are going down to Alabama with folks in the NEA to try and see what they can do down there. So I think it's going to work. Congressman Ballenger had some very good suggestions about what can be done. He made the same point you did in terms of making sure Members of Congress are notified personally of grants. I think, in terms of the kinds of grants that are being made, that there just isn't an awareness that would be helpful to have.

    So I think it will be very beneficial for the Council and the Members.


    Mr. REGULA. Good. Good. You mentioned about making the Council smaller. The reason I did that was, of course, to accommodate the fact that we had the six legislative members, plus the fact that sometimes a smaller unit can be more effective. But I believe I heard you say you would rather expand it.

    Ms. HIGGINS. Well, one of the concerns—and Scott may want to comment on this as well—that I heard talking to members of the Council was that the Council is made up of people from a variety of disciplines because the reach of the NEA is so broad. And so they were feeling, I think, because of the fewer members, that there were just some areas—dance, literature, and design were three in particular—where members have now left the Council, and because of the smaller size they are not going to be replaced. So, perhaps over time it will even out. But I think the feeling was if it could be expanded a little bit, not necessarily back to the size that it was, because, you know, I think a smaller group is probably more manageable, but to make sure that there is enough breadth in terms of the membership of the Council. Also the Congressional members are nonvoting, so it's important to have voting members who can actually speak to the quality of some of the presentations. And that's what I was hearing from the Council members; that they missed having somebody on the Council as part of the review process, who knew design, who knew dance, or who knew literature first hand.
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    Mr. REGULA. Well, I suppose we'll not try to change it this year. And maybe with a little time we can work that out.

    I've got to suspend a minute. These two young ladies are from my district, and constituents come first.

    Ms. HIGGINS. Sure, absolutely.

    Mr. REGULA. And they are quite interested in the arts. I had lunch with them. They are Presidential Classroom seniors in high school, so I told them to come back and listen in, but I'll go get a picture with the Capitol in the background. I'll be right back.



    Mr. REGULA. Okay. Well, you mentioned you're doing under-served areas. That's part of the outreach program. And are you getting education emphasis? I think so, from what you said.

    Ms. HIGGINS. Yes. I think that's clearly a priority. Again, with the increase that the President has asked for, ArtsREACH and arts education will be the two focus areas for that additional money.
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    Mr. REGULA. No more votes today.

    Mr. YATES. No more votes today. Ah. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. I'll call on you, Mr. Yates, because you probably want to go home.

    Mr. YATES. No, I mean on this agency?

    Mr. REGULA. No, no; I mean that's why I'm going to give you the time next.

    Mr. SKAGGS. I was here first, and I want to yield to Mr. Yates. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. I think you ought to yield to him, Mr. Chairman, so he can yield to me.

    Mr. REGULA. Alright, I yield to Mr. Skaggs.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Mr. Chairman, I observed Mr. Yates coming over from the vote that until he was here, we really didn't have a hearing on either NEA or NEH. He constitutes——

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    Mr. REGULA. I was wondering if you were going to make it?

    Mr. SKAGGS. He constitutes a quorum. So, I'm delighted to yield to Mr. Yates.


    Mr. YATES. Well, that's very kind of you. I appreciate your yielding. And I appreciate your yielding, too, Mr. Chairman.

    I have, oh, for a few years been affiliated in some respects with the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. I'm delighted to do it again, although I think this is probably the last time I will engage in it. And I feel sad because of that. Because I used to love these hearings. They were wonderful hearings. We used to have—I don't know whether you do still have the heads of your various arts departments with you as witnesses. I used to ask you to bring them here—the dance, the theater, the opera. Are they with you today?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. There are a few of them that are here today. But they are not here as witnesses as I understand it.

    Mr. YATES. Yes. I don't know about your staff now. I'm sure that——

    Ms. HIGGINS. Much smaller, Mr. Yates. [Laughter.]
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    Mr. YATES. Well, that's the difference in chairmen, I think. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. The hearings are a little shorter. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. What?

    Mr. REGULA. The hearings are a little shorter.     Mr. YATES. Well, okay. But, you know, he's come a long way. [Laughter.]

    I remember when he barely went to a ballet; barely went to a symphony. But he does now; the Cleveland Symphony, the Canton Symphony—he's very much aware of it. And I think that's great. So you did start the education process that you speak of before this. As a matter of fact, Mr. Murtha also went with him, I think to most of these occasions.

    Mr. REGULA. I even went to an opera.

    Mr. YATES. You went to an opera in New York. The Met.

    Mr. REGULA. That's right.

    Mr. YATES. Yes. That was good, wasn't it?

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    Mr. REGULA. But our ballet company, which is composed of amateurs, will now get some funding. So that makes a difference.

    Mr. YATES. Well, I've been trying to do that for years. You see, you're more effective than I am. [Laughter.]

    I don't know any reason why good amateurs are never funded. Do you know any good reason why good amateurs were never funded?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Well, we have some examples of grants that are funding amateurs; that are funding youth choruses, and——

    Mr. YATES. In previous years?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Well, in recent years.

    Mr. YATES. In recent years, yes.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. I don't know about long ago.

    Mr. YATES. I remember I went after Livvy Biddle for that and Nancy Hanks and their successors. We went after them because, I've seen some of the most marvelous plays, the most marvelous dances, and have listened to the most marvelous concerts by amateurs.
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    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Part of the problem is the resources available.

    Mr. YATES. I know.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. This year we can fund only about 25 percent of the grant funds that have been requested.

    Mr. YATES. I know. Right. Well, it is to be hoped. I'm told by my secretary that I should never use the word hopefully; it is to be hoped—that there is no such word as hopefully, actually. Actually, no hopefully. [Laughter.]

    So, you were a teacher, weren't you, Mr. Miller?

    Mr. MILLER. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. Statistics. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. I won't ask you then. [Laughter.]


    At any rate, it's always a joy to come to these hearings because I know that there is hope of getting funding for them as a result of hearings like these. And I wish there was some way of increasing it. But I don't know there is. We're facing cuts in the budget for almost every agency, and while these are the most popular agencies with me, they aren't with most Members of Congress unfortunately, and with Mr. Skaggs I must say; and gradually with Mr. Regula, I think. [Laughter.]
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    I think Mr. Miller is showing interest too. You know the other agencies that are closer to the hearts of most Members are being cut, and I suspect that this may suffer a little bit too. At any rate, it may suffer but it will still live, and that's the important thing; survival. We've had questions of survival in a number of years. And we're going to do it. Certainly this year, we're going to do it. Aren't we, Mr. Chairman?

    Mr. REGULA. Well, 435 Members have to help make that decision.

    Mr. YATES. Well, I wasn't asking 434 others. [Laughter.]

    I was trying to get you to commit yourself.

    Mr. REGULA. I think it's a possibility.

    Mr. YATES. Yes, okay. Well that's—I'll accept that.

    Mr. REGULA. Hopefully. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. Well, you can see the chairman has a sense of humor, and anybody with a sense of humor has got to have an interest in the arts. [Laughter.]

    So, at any rate, how are you doing? I address myself to you.

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    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Hopefully very well. [Laughter.]

    I think the agency is doing very well.

    Mr. YATES. Is it?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. We could do a lot better with additional funds. And before you came in, we were talking about the new ArtsREACH initiative, and trying to really broaden the distribution of our funds to about 20 States that we consider to be very under-represented in our grant pool.

    Mr. YATES. I don't know whether you distributed this copy of an article from Arts and Leisure of the New York Times about what happened to Grand Forks after the floods. But, I think it is marvelous. I remember that during World War II—during the bombing of Britain in the bomb shelters they had concerts. Myra Hess used to play in the bomb shelters. And violin soloists used to play in the bomb shelters and concerts.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Yates, have you seen Titanic?

    Mr. YATES. I have not.

    Mr. REGULA. You should see it, because the orchestra is playing as the ship goes down. And they are out on the deck, and similar to what you are saying here.

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    Mr. YATES. I remember that.

    Mr. MILLER. Do you remember the Titanic? [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. I do. Do I remember? Of course I do. As a matter of fact, I was 3 years old when the Titanic went down. And I did have a book when I was young which described the disaster. So I'm familiar with the Titanic. And I remember that in the book there was a description of the orchestra playing ''Nearer My God to Thee''—''Nearer My God to Thee''—as the ship went down. And some expert subsequently said that wasn't the piece they were playing, but as far as I'm concerned that was——

    Mr. REGULA. That's what the movie says, so it must be right.

    Mr. YATES. Who said?

    Mr. REGULA. I say, that's the way it was in the movie, so it must be right.

    Mr. YATES. In the movie. It must be right. Well, that's true. I was thinking of the disasters and how well you did at Grand Forks and what opportunities you have as a result of El Niño. [Laughter.]

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. I'm sure we'll be getting a few calls.

    Mr. YATES. El Niño. All over the Pacific coast you've got communities that need help of various kinds and on the Atlantic coast as well. But, in the course of that, you must not forget Canton, Ohio, nor Chicago.
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    Mr. MILLER. Or Sarasota.

    Mr. YATES. Nor Sarasota, nor Denver.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Boulder.

    Mr. YATES. Boulder, alright; Boulder.

    I see by your statement that you are now trying to cover more geography than you have in the past. I remember, we used to hear from Members of Congress as to why there weren't more grants, why New York received such a large portion of the grants. And, of course, it was because they had all the arts organizations, you know—not all of them, but most of them are in New York—and they were all being financed.

    But at any rate, I don't have any criticisms of you. For that matter, I don't think I ever did. I could have joined in Mapplethorpe and Serrano, and I guess that their names will be forever etched in stone, won't they, affiliated with yours, unfortunately. And it's kind of unfortunate that they are known by the works of art for which they are known. I'm told—and I should put this on the record—that when NEA considered the grant of Mapplethorpe, I think it was of the Philadelphia Museum of Contemporary Art, that it did not include the—what shall I say—the raunchy pictures. They were just the pictures—the photographs—for which Mapplethorpe was famous. And he was considered to be an outstanding photographer. But then, when they got the draft, the director of contemporary art in the museum decided to include the additional pictures, and that was kind of like putting the NEA on the guillotine, for that matter. And NEH kind of went along for the ride, I guess, because they are always associated with each other.
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    At any rate, I'm testifying and you're not. [Laughter.]

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. You're doing a very good job.


    Mr. YATES. Yes, as I have over the years. [Laughter.]

    You were starting to tell me that you are doing well. And I hope you're doing well. What problems do you have, other than lack of funds? Are there any?

    Well, now, how are you getting along without Jane Alexander? She was a very good director, wasn't she?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. She was a very good director. We miss her a lot. She was a strong leader.

    Mr. YATES. Yes, I know.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. She got some really good reforms in place which——

    Mr. YATES. You have had pretty good leaders throughout; starting with Nancy Hanks and Livvy Biddle and the other who followed. And Jane Alexander upheld that tradition.
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    Ms. HIGGINS. And the President has nominated Bill Ivey as the new chair. And we're waiting for the Senate to schedule a hearing, and hopefully they will.


    Mr. YATES. I'm taking too much time, Mr. Chairman. But I don't think I'll be doing this any more and——

    Mr. REGULA. You have all the time you want.

    Mr. YATES. I'm quite sure that you'll be Chair. And so I just want to leave a memory with you.

    Mr. REGULA. You have.

    Mr. YATES. Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Mr. Chairman, if I could——

    Mr. YATES. Reclaim——

    Mr. SKAGGS. Reclaim my time. This is not for Mr. Yates' benefit, and it's entirely out of order, but I can't think——
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    Mr. REGULA. It's perfectly alright.

    Mr. SKAGGS [continuing]. Of an audience that is ever before us that wouldn't rather give him a round of applause.



    Mr. YATES. You remind me of Ana Steele's farewell party. Yes. Ana Steele, I'm sure you are going to miss her.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. We certainly do.

    Mr. YATES. And perhaps you'll miss me a little too. I hope not. I hope that there are others who will take my place, and I suspect they will. Thank you very much.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Well, thank you for all that you have done.

    Mr. YATES. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. And I hope some day you will say the same for Mr. Regula. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. Hopefully, right. [Laughter.]
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    Mr. SKAGGS. I'll wait my turn now, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, let's see, you probably were next since you came in together.

    Mr. YATES. I was probably next. And I'll yield to you.


    Mr. SKAGGS. Actually I was hoping for some break between Mr. Yates and myself so that I wouldn't suffer too much by comparison.

    I wanted to ask a little bit about your proposal to beef up arts education. That seems to me to be, as with so many things, the point of life where intervention leverages the most. And we were intrigued. Particularly as there was sort of a flurry of research results coming out a year or two ago about the impact of arts on the early wiring of the mind—for lack of a better figure of speech. I'm just wondering if anything more has been published in the last year or so to reinforce what we think we know about all of that, and just to give you an opportunity to explain a little bit about what you're hoping to get done in arts education.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Well, the research continues and that's one of the areas that the Endowment has supported. We have developed priorities for education research in the area of arts education to help researchers across the country identify areas that need to be looked into. And we've also summarized research that is relevant into a brochure that can be widely distributed. I think those are very important initiatives and that's one of the important leadership roles that the Arts Endowment can play.
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    We are interested in being able to expand the Education and Access grants that the Endowment does award. This year we were able to award a little over $9 million in Education and Access grants across the country. I think this is one of the areas that we can work in school districts and arts organizations in every State. It's one of the areas through which we could really begin to reach some of the more under-served States if we had additional money in this area. And hopefully through the ArtsREACH program, a number of the communities will be developing plans to improve the arts education programs in their schools.

    Mr. SKAGGS. So what actually could we hope to have you report on this time next year about improvements in arts education?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. That we would have been able to reach far more students; that we would have been able to involve more artists and arts organizations in the process; that we would have been able to expand the research that has been done for arts education and to communicate that to school districts. These decisions are made at the local school district level, and so it is very important for the community to be able to reinforce and to make the argument for arts education. As you know, in many places it's the first thing to go when the budget cuts come.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Moran.

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    Mr. MORAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't want to take too much time because I know, No. 1, you've covered all the questions that really needed and were appropriate to be asked, but we also have the National Endowment for the Humanities coming up. I just had one question. This new ArtsREACH new initiative that you've got in the budget—I think it's your principal new initiative for this year—there is actually a decrease in administrative costs, and yet this ArtsREACH program is going to require a lot more travel—outreach if you will—of the staff and working with local communities trying to get the kind of activities that will take hold—take root—within a community. Have you explained how you're going to do that with less staff and more responsibility?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Well, we won't have less staff. We'll have the same, current staff that we do have. The percentage going into administration is really a function of the bottom line, and if our budget increases, and we're not putting more into administration then that percentage would decrease.

    Mr. MORAN. The budget request had a slight decrease in administrative expenses.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Yes, a slight decrease, that's true. And part of that relates to computer implementation that we have been going through for the last few years. We now have our local area network in place. We're able to move forward with that.

    Mr. MORAN. That's fine, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Miller.


    Mr. MILLER. Hearing Mr. Yates talk and reminisce, it makes me think; I received a book recently—an oral history book by Mr. Ferris who's head of the NEH—and it's a fascinating book to read. And it sounds like what you should do is do an oral history of Sid Yates, because it's something. Now, this one here, the book I'm reading, is called ''You Live and Learn, Then You Die and Forget It All.'' It's about a mule trader.

    Mr. YATES. Several of the Members hearing about my early years in the Congress and the early political activities that I have had, have asked me to write memoirs. And it's awfully tough, you know, to gather everything together in order to do it. If I were maybe 2 years younger I might do it. [Laughter.]

    But, I don't think I can do it now. But you make a very interesting——

    Mr. MILLER. But oral history makes it a little easier because you just record into a machine.

    Mr. YATES. Of course. Of course. And I like to talk anyway. Thank you very much.

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    Mr. MILLER. Since we're a little behind schedule because of that vote, talk a little bit about the changes that were brought about because of last year's appropriation bill and what impact they have had, positive and negative; and what problems you are having with it besides the total dollar being lower.


    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Well, one of them that I think we mentioned before you came in was that six Members of Congress were added to the National Council and they attended our first meeting a couple of weeks ago. And I think this will help improve the communications between the Arts Endowment and Congress and help us both understand each others' concerns. I think the meeting was very positive.

    Mr. REGULA. I'd like to take credit for that initiative, but it was really Mr. Yates who suggested to me to put the six members on. In your earlier testimony, also, they indicated that this is working.

    Mr. YATES. It wouldn't have been possible without Mr. Regula; as none of this budget would have been possible without him.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. I know. And we certainly do appreciate that.

    Mr. YATES. So think of that when you make a grant to Canton. [Laughter.]
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    Mr. MILLER. Mr. Yates recommended Mr. Doolittle and Mr. Ballenger. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. Well, I haven't recommended them; nor Mr. Hoekstra. Mr. Hoekstra, I think, camped out at the National Endowment for the Arts for a long time.

    Ms. HIGGINS. He told me though he has moved on.

    Mr. YATES. I was just going to say——

    Ms. HIGGINS. He is actually focusing on the Labor Department. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. He found a new agency to attract his attention, for which I am grateful and I'm sure you are too. [Laughter.]

    Ms. HIGGINS. I consider it a very mixed blessing. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. Sorry. Incidently, before you start your questioning again, I just want to say how impressed I am that you taught statistics. You've got to be smart as hell in order to teach statistics. [Laughter.]

    Really. I'm impressed.

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    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Speaking of statistics. One of the other changes was, that we were asked not to award more than 15 percent of our grant funds to any one State. And we are certainly monitoring that. The cap excludes the multi-State grants we were able to fund. This year, we've established a new category for multi-State grants, and about 334 of our approximately 1,200 grants will be multi-State grants that affect more than one State and serve the Nation in a number of different ways.


    Mr. MILLER. Let me use my community as an example: Sarasota and Bradenton in Florida. We have a very active arts community in Sarasota. It is very active and I think very advanced. And yet very little has ever come from the National Endowment for the Arts. I'm not looking for pork barrel spending, but some obviously comes from Tallahassee and they get their fair share and it keeps the arts council going, of course. But as far as grants, for a fairly sophisticated arts community, it is almost nonexistant in my community for years. Maybe you can correct me on that, but that is my impression.

    Mr. YATES. Did they apply?

    Mr. MILLER. I don't know the answer to that. The thing is, that's part of the problem. Here's a community that should be advanced. Now Manatee County, my home, is not and has probably received less. But why can't a more sophisticated community like Sarasota have a fair number. You know, that's been, I guess, one of the concerns a lot of us had that——
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    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Right. Well, one of the problems that we've run into in recent years is that because of the 40 percent budget cut, a lot of organizations around the country think it's not worth their time to apply to the Endowment; that it will be too competitive as our money has been cut so drastically. And so that's another reason the budget——


    Mr. MILLER. How difficult is it to apply for a grant? My daughter is doing some grant writing these days, she's working as a social worker.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. We have tried to make it very, very simple. And that's one of the things that we did as a result of the reorganization of the Endowment. We moved from 17 different discipline grant programs to one grant program that has 4 different categories. And we have tried to simplify——

    Mr. MILLER. Do people have to hire grant writers? I mean do they have to contract out to professionals?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. No, they do not. We have tried to simplify the Guidelines. We have put the Guidelines on the Web this year, so people can just download them. In a lot of cases we found that people weren't getting copies. We also have a brochure that we have widely distributed outlining the grant categories. With the ArtsREACH program we are talking about sending our staff team to those 20 States to help organizations and promote the Guidelines and conduct grant workshops. We would be happy to help people from Sarasota. If they are not applying, we can't fund them. And so that is part of the problem, is getting the applications in.
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    Ms. HIGGINS. I believe that we can go back and actually look at what kinds of applications and what's been funded in your district.

    Mr. MILLER. I'm not complaining. I don't know the specifics. But I'm using this to illustrate, okay.

    Ms. HIGGINS. No, but I think it's an important issue. Because we want to be able to—it's something the Endowment is trying to understand in terms of where applications are coming from and where projects are actually being funded. So, I think we ought to look at that and just come back to you with a report.


    Mr. REGULA. Our colleague, Cass Ballenger, was at his first meeting, and he suggested to them that any time a grant is made, that the Member whose district is involved be notified. And it fits with what you're saying.

    Mr. MILLER. In public housing they spent $96,000 for a consultant to prepare the grant application. You know, it seems like in social work, I know, they spend a lot—full-time grant writing. I hate to have grant writing the focus rather than the ultimate objective. Maybe nowadays with the Internet and all.

    Let me ask you one more quick question and then we'll move on to the money issue.
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    Mr. YATES. What does your daughter do? What's her discipline?

    Mr. MILLER. Social work.

    Mr. YATES. Oh, I thought you said she was applying for a grant from the——

    Mr. MILLER. No, she does grant writing for Goodwill Industries.

    Mr. YATES. Oh, I see.


    Mr. MILLER. Why are you spending so much money on computers? You've been doing this for years. I mean, what all does your computer system do? For years you have been upgrading the computer.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. We have a local area network that has just been installed for the agency. And then we're also——

    Mr. MILLER. Local area network, how does that work now?

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Well it means that all of the staff is networked throughout the agency so that we can communicate with each other through e-mail and work on documents together through the network.
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    Mr. MILLER. It seems like, I mean, you have spent a lot of money and time. I don't know——

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. We also had to have software developed for the computer that would be specific towards tracking the grants and following the grant project information that we are provided by the grantees.


    Ms. HIGGINS. One of the things that I mentioned that has struck me in my limited time at the Endowment is, in fact, they have a very small staff that tracks a large number of grants. The grants are made to the 50 States, but also then, very directly to a lot of local organizations. In fact, one of the things that they are trying to do, to go back to your earlier question, is to be able to, by zip code for example, track where grants are actually operating. It takes a reasonably sophisticated system to do that. I mean, once it's in place, it will hopefully be in place for a long time. But I think there is some benefit to actually being able to have that information more readily available than it has been without the new computer system.

    Mr. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


    Mr. REGULA. Just a couple of questions. Have you had any part in the planning for the $50 million millennium project of the President, at least thus far?
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    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. We're working actively with the White House Millennium Council and the Endowment has a number of millennium projects that we're funding through our own grants program.

    Mr. REGULA. I noticed that in your testimony.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. And we're working with them to make plans for next year. I know $50 million is requested for next year's appropriation.

    Mr. REGULA. True. I just wondered if you had been involved.

    I have a number of other questions for the record. I think we'll move on because we do have NEH yet this afternoon, unless anyone else has additional questions. If not, thank you very much for coming.

    Ms. SHANKLIN-PETERSON. Thank you very much.

    [The following questions and answers were submitted for the record:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

Thursday, March 12, 1998.

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Opening Remarks

    Mr. REGULA [presiding]. Welcome, Mr. Ferris. We're happy to have you, and I'm sure your maiden voyage here is going to be far more successful than the Titanic. That was a nice story in the ''Style'' section of the Washington Post.

    We'll make your testimony a part of the record, and you may tell us whatever you would like to by way of summarization.

Summary Statement of William R. Ferris

    Mr. FERRIS. Thank you. I'm honored to be here, Congressman.

    I'd like to acknowledge my wife, Marcie, my daughter, Virginia, and her friend, Clark, are here from Oxford, Mississippi to learn about Congress and the Nation's capital.

    I'd like to say, Mr. Chairman, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, that I'm honored to be before you today as the new Chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities. I'm excited because I think this is an exciting time for the Endowment, and we have much to offer.
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    Lessons drawn from the humanities, from philosophy, from literature, from archaeology, and from folklore, have much to teach us about the world and our place in it. We cannot help but be inspired by ''The Civil War'', by ''Baseball'', by ''The West''—topics that every American loves, and these are but three of the great stories that NEH has shared with the Nation through the magic of film-maker Ken Burns and through the generosity of Congress.

    These films will be played over and over again in American classrooms and will continue to have unlimited educational value. As we enjoy these films and learn from them, it's important to remember that they are the end results of many years of scholarship and preservation, all of which are supported by the NEH.

    As we move toward the millennium, NEH hopes to reconnect the humanities with every American through their family history, their stories, their regional worlds. We want to bring the humanities back home. This is what I have done for over 30 years as a folklorist, and this is what I will continue to do as Chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities.

    As director of the Center for the Study of Southern Culture at the University of Mississippi, I learned firsthand the importance of preserving the stories of a region, so that her people do not forget their roots. I also know the overwhelming interest that people throughout the country have in learning about their own regions.

    As part of our ''Rediscovering America'' initiative, we plan to create 10 vital humanities centers that will be located in every region of the Nation, providing a direct link between NEH and every American. These centers will support teaching, research, and public programs in the region. Five million dollars of our total budget of $136 million will be used to help create these centers. These dollars will ''prime the pump'' for what I envision as a strong public/private relationship.
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    I have seen how this can work. The Center for the Study of Southern Culture, which began 21 years ago, would not have happened without NEH support. With your support, you can ensure that the same story will be told in every region of our country.

    This Encyclopedia of Southern Culture is a concrete example of how we helped preserve the culture of one region. After seeing over 100,000 copies sold, I cannot begin to express the importance of this book in the hearts of Southerners and of all Americans.

    Through this initiative, NEH will seek proposals from our Nation's strong cultural institutions, our museums, colleges, universities, and libraries, that will become clearinghouses for projects like encyclopedias, public programs for children and the elderly, and cultural tourism opportunities.

    There are other important initiatives described in our budget that I would like to highlight. NEH will continue to focus on education and technology. This last fall NEH, along with MCI and the Council of Great City Schools, established EDSITEment, a new website that identifies the 22 best educational websites and literature, history, and humanities subjects. So, as you can see, a child or a teacher simply punches up the home page of one of these carefully-selected home pages and pulls them into the classroom. Teachers are thirsty for this information, and this site serves currently over 20,000 individuals per month.

    Another project, our ''Teaching with Technology'' initiative, has supported software projects that range from the Civil War to the Supreme Court, to ancient Greece and Rome, that are being used extensively in classrooms, and these are some of the home pages for the Supreme Court and the Greek and Roman Project that are currently in use. We have produced, along with that, CD–ROMs that also are available and in use within public schools throughout the Nation. Because teachers need to be trained to handle this new technology, our ''Schools for a New Millennium'' initiative will help K-through-12 teachers use these CD–ROMs and the Internet in the classroom.
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    All of these projects that we are talking about are based on the scholarship that NEH has supported for the last three decades. This is great work. As I said to others, if I can't defend and support this, I'm going to go home and plow a mule. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. And I know you know how to do that. [Laughter.]

    Mr. FERRIS. And I'm pleased, Congressman, that we have mules on the wall in the hearing room. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. They hung that photograph for my benefit. [Laughter.]

    My Dad had a coal mine. So I had to be a little bit of a muleskinner, among other things. I've talked about this. [Laughter.]

    Mr. FERRIS. We've both worked with mules in our family.

    Mr. REGULA. It equips us to work with Congressmen. [Laughter.]

    Mr. YATES. He has around this committee, too. [Laughter.]

    Mr. FERRIS. Well, this is all to say that this work is very important, and it's also very exciting. With your support, we will continue to do it, and do it well.
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    Mr. Chairman, I'm grateful for your time for this process. I look forward to working with you and with your colleagues in the future.

    Thank you.

    [The statement of Mr. Ferris follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you. I have a number of questions, but I'll defer to you, Mr. Yates.

    Mr. YATES. Well, I'm delighted to be here today, and to congratulate you upon your appointment. I'm very much impressed with what you bring to the job. I've looked through your encyclopedia, and that I know is terribly impressive. There's so much information and so much factual data in it. That must have taken a couple of days to produce at least. [Laughter.]

    At any rate, that, too, is most impressive.


    We're glad to have you on the job. I'm not going to press anything. Are there problems that you have other than funding? I'm sure you could use more money, but what happens if you get less?
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    Mr. FERRIS. Well, if we get less, it would be a sad comment on these projects. I would compare what we've been through in the last three years to corporate downsizing. The Endowment is leaner and far more focused than ever before in its three decades of existence, and we are poised to transform the future of humanities education and culture in this Nation. This agenda we're talking about is, as I said, ''priming the pump.'' This will allow us to go to potential major corporate and private supporters, who have already begun to step forward and indicate that they want to be a partner with the Endowment. They're waiting for congressional approval, so that they know this is something that the Nation's leaders would like to see. They're going to step in aggressively. In Chicago, in other parts of the country, we are already working with corporate leaders and with foundation leaders.

    So we are anxious to grow, and as we grow, the congressional support will be a small part of what we bring to these projects.


    Mr. YATES. Well, I hope to be able to help you. I noted what you said about K-through-12. What about universities? What will your relationship be with colleges and universities?

    Mr. FERRIS. Well, grants under the new initiative will probably, in all likelihood, go to a major university in each region, and would create there an undergraduate and a graduate degree program focused on the region. These institutions would also support research projects like the preparation of an encyclopedia on the region.
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    We also currently support summer seminars for college and university teachers each year. I've taught three summer seminars that were funded through NEH, and I can vouch for their enormous value, not only for me as the teacher, but also for those who traveled and participated in them; it transforms their ability to go back into the classroom and to do their work well. We do that for both high school and for college teachers.


    Mr. YATES. Tell me how well is your project to save the books going.

    Mr. FERRIS. As a friend of mine would say, we're halfway home and a long way to go. We have helped to save over 800,000 books out of a total of 3 million that need to be saved that are in absolutely critical condition. So we're less than halfway there, and because of budget cuts, we've obviously not been able to do as much as we would like in this area.

    I would point out, in terms of what was said earlier, that George Farr, director of NEH's. Preservation and Access Division, and his staff have forged a partnership with the National Institute for the Conservation of Cultural Property (NIC), the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), and the Getty Conservation Institute (GCI), to produce the Emergency Response and Salvage Wheel that essentially allows preservationists and groups who have projects that may have been damaged by water or other experiences to quickly address those issues. So, the preservation of brittle books and many other preservation initiatives, which, as you know, the President also is concerned about, are being aggressively dealt with by the Endowment.
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    Mr. YATES. I think that's good, and that's why I consider you to be a very necessary agency for the benefit of the country.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Skaggs.


    Mr. SKAGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome. It's fun to sense your excitement taking over this operation. I look forward to the kind of leadership you're going to bring to the Endowment.

    I wanted to follow up, and was thinking before Mr. Yates asked about it, to inquire how things are going on preservation. You covered books, but I'm well aware of the newspaper project as well, and would be interested in an update on that, as well as a related matter, which is the presidential papers projects.

    Mr. FERRIS. Yes. Both of those are moving along but not as quickly as we would like. As for the presidential papers, we have been aggressively seeking both congressional and private support for them, and we've been able to offer matching support for the projects. But when we talk of the presidential papers of figures like Washington and Grant, and the papers of other figures like Martin Luther King, Jr. and historic Americans, these papers are at risk. The long-term future of these projects is insecure, and we are taking special steps within the Endowment to try to put together a coalition of private and public support that will allow us to fully complete all of these papers.
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    The U.S. Newspaper Program is also within sight of completion. We've had significant success in those areas, and I can provide you specific details on when the project will actually be completed. To date, we have preserved 57 million pages of newspapers in the 50 States and the territories, which are now on microfilm, and we are hoping to digitize all of these. One of my top priorities is to use technology to digitize and give absolute full access, not only to historically important newspapers, but also to presidential papers and to all of the materials that grantees of the Endowment are producing.

    Mr. SKAGGS. Despite what I am sure are the extraordinary efforts being made by the people that are funded through this part of your program to avoid losses, I can't imagine but that we haven't suffered some, and wonder whether it might give us material to work with in speaking with our colleagues when your budget is debated, if you might, for the record anyway, provide some information about some things that, sadly, may have slipped through our preservation net because of the limitation on your resources in this area, in particular last year.

    [The information follows:]


    The drastic reductions in the NEH budget the last two years have had devastating consequences for the humanities. Our efforts to help preserve the documents and materials essential to understanding our nation's history and culture, for example, have been set back considerably. Because of the budget cuts for fiscal years 1996 and 1997—
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    40,000 brittle books were not microfilmed;

    1,000,000 pages of historically important U.S. newspapers were not microfilmed; and

    2,000,000 cultural objects and artifacts in museums were not preserved and documented.


    Mr. SKAGGS. I wanted to also ask you, briefly, about your millennium activities, and in particular, within that, about the partnering that you expect to effect in carrying out that effort, both with other national nonprofits as well as the State and university piece of this.

    Mr. FERRIS. Well, my history as a scholar and a fundraiser is partnership-based, and I have already been setting up coalitions with corporate CEOs, as well as with a group of technology CEOs, that will be coming into the Endowment to meet personally with our Division heads and begin shaping ways they can be personally involved in this process.

    This past Monday I was in New York, hosted at a luncheon by the Mellon Foundation, with all of the heads of foundations in New York City. This spring, I'll be meeting with the Council on Foundations here in D.C. The foundation community is very excited about this, and these coalitions will be drawn together at the local, regional, and national levels. There are clearly some who will fund specific projects within their locale; there are others who will fund projects on a national basis. We will be aggressively building these coalitions in the coming months.
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    Mr. SKAGGS. While I know that you want to focus primarily on the positive, it's occurred to me that our worst civic virus these days is cynicism. I wonder if you have any work going on in searching out the causes and antidotes to cynicism in America. [Laughter.]

    Mr. FERRIS. Well, I'm a great believer in what Yeats, the poet, the Irish poet, said——


    Mr. YATES. Not what the other one said. [Laughter.]

    Mr. FERRIS [continuing]. And most appropriately at this table would like to quote. William Butler Yeats said that ''if you believe in an idea strongly enough, you create the reality.''

    I also believe firmly that funding follows ideas; that people fund ideas that they believe in, and they fund people rather than institutions. So I will personally be in the office of every congressional leader, of every corporate leader, who is interested and wants to be a part of this relationship.

    There's no place for cynicism in the Endowment. The staff and I are firmly committed to the future, and we will make a difference to this Nation.
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    Mr. SKAGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Moran.


    Mr. MORAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    It is exciting, as my colleagues have said, to see you take over with your vision, Mr. Ferris. We've had very fine people heading the National Endowment for the Humanities in the past, and I have found no fault with them. In fact, it seems to me that we have evolved in a progressive manner consistently. I find fault with the Congress that cut back NEH's appropriation in 1995, but I have to say I can't help but be enthusiastic about your leadership and your ideas.

    This is terrific. You can open to any page and read the topic from an expert that really knows what they're talking about. It's beautifully written.

    Would you see these regional humanities centers developing this kind of a product for other parts of the country, when it's done so well for the South?

    Mr. FERRIS. Absolutely. I have studied American culture and folklore and literature. One of the things that I believe very firmly is that we really don't know a lot about our own culture. We grow up in Ohio, in California, in Illinois, in Massachusetts, and in many ways we don't really know the places we live in. A volume like this is absolutely essential in every region. Every child, every person living in this Nation deserves the opportunity to have a resource that will tell them about the history of their culture, of their community.
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    So what we're going to do is to open the windows on America. No matter where you live, who you are, you will find yourself on the pages of these books, and you will look with pride and with excitement as you discover, ''rediscover'', America, which is what we're trying to do.

    Mr. MORAN. It can't help but help people define who they are, where they're coming from, where they are in history and geography. It's a wonderful way for people to identify themselves and the culture that they're part of. As we move into the new millennium, I think that any civilized country is blessed to have people that understand the importance for a work like this.


    You're going to do some projects with regard to public television. You've done some already, NEH has, and you plan to do some more. One of the things that PBS has gotten criticism for in the past is that they haven't taken advantage of the royalty opportunities. I know that this Congress particularly is anxious to see any kind of entrepreneurial efforts on the part of agencies in the Federal Government.

    Can you tell us a little about how you're going to take advantage of the opportunities, even commercial opportunities, that might present themselves through these documentaries?

    Mr. FERRIS. Absolutely. All of our funded projects, including documentary films, are subject to clauses stipulating that the Endowment can claim a share of any profits made on a book, a film, or other grant-supported products. Now, as we know, most educational books and scholarly treatises will not make a profit, but in one exception: Ken Burns' series ''The Civil War'' completely repaid the grants that the Endowment made to Mr. Burns to produce it. Those monies, when they came back to the Endowment, were then used for other projects, which are also repaying their grants. We are also moving aggressively, with congressional approval, to develop an entrepreneurial approach within the Endowment through our Office of Enterprise. We are looking into a number of ways of generating support, not only through gifts, but also through the sales of materials that we produce, and these entrepreneurial approaches, within the next few years, will significantly increase our ability to enhance and extend the support that Congress provides us.
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    Mr. MORAN. Mr. Chairman, that gives us good ammunition when we get into a debate. We need Members to know this.

    The only other area of inquiry I wanted to get onto the record was the economic benefits that you have developed within communities when you choose a community. Just briefly—I don't want to take up the time of my colleagues, but I think it's useful, that you've got a good story to tell there.

    Mr. FERRIS. Well, the economic impact of these films, for example—when the Ken Burns series on the Civil War came out, the number of visitors at Civil War parks and sites more than doubled. One could probably say the same thing for the parks in the American West when his series ''The West'' aired.

    We currently have one of our exhibits on American Presidents on show at one of the Rouse Shopping malls in Portland, Oregon. These are small examples of what the large panels look like. The numbers of visitors, the response in the press and in the public there have been enormously positive, and later this summer this same exhibit will travel to Mt. Rushmore and be on exhibit at that National Park.

    One of the biggest agendas that I expect to expand dramatically is in the field of cultural tourism, tourism being second only to health care as our Nation's largest economic force. These humanities centers that we will put in place will also develop ''electronic triptychs'' so that if I'm traveling from Kenyon College to the University of Chicago, and I would like to visit Civil War sites or Native American sites, and stay in a bed and breakfast, and I've got six days to travel, in a matter of minutes I can produce from that electronic source an itinerary and the history of the sites to visit, many of which will not be on the beaten path. An economic impact will be reaching into the heartland that is directly connected to the humanities. So, economics are a very high priority not only in terms of funding projects within the Endowment, but in helping the grassroots communities throughout the Nation.
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    Mr. MORAN. That was, admittedly, a softball question, but you sure knocked it out of the ball park. [Laughter.]

    Thank you, Chairman Ferris, and thank you, Chairman Regula.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.

    Mr. Miller.

    Mr. MILLER. Thank you.

    It's interesting to know that three Southerners were added to this committee this year with Mr. Moran, Mr. Wamp, and myself. I see now that the new Chairman of NEH is from the South, and the new Chairman-nominee for the NEA is also from the South. That's an interesting fact that the South does have culture and arts, and I'm glad there's a recognition of that fact. I'm sorry Mr. Yates isn't here to hear that comment. [Laughter.]

    What is your experience personally prior to coming to NEH?


    Mr. FERRIS. I've had enormous respect and admiration for the Endowment, and I've been closely connected with it over the last three decades. I've received grants for my own scholarship for projects like the Encyclopedia of Southern Culture. Our Center, as I mentioned, was given major support to set up an undergraduate curriculum in southern studies, to produce over a decade of time the Encyclopedia, to renovate an Antebellum Observatory. These were major building blocks in the history of that great university, the University of Mississippi, that allowed it to rise above its traditional status into an international setting for regional and southern studies. That story is repeated at virtually every campus around the Nation.
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    I have also served on panels at the Endowment over the years. I've also worked as a consultant, going into places like Harlan County, Kentucky, Wyoming, Texas, and Maine, and serving as a consultant for humanities projects that were trying to get started there.

    So I've known and admired the Endowment for over 30 years, and as a token of my admiration for the history of that institution, we're going to set up in the entryway to my office the portraits of each of the former Chairs, the tenure that they served at the Endowment, and the Presidents who appointed them, because this is a truly great institution. Part of my mission is to make the Endowment and the humanities a household word in the Nation, in the way that the arts are known. It's really deserving of far more attention and appreciation, and I've known it well.

    As my grandfather would say, I know the humanities like cornbread, and I was raised on that. [Laughter.]

    Mr. MILLER. Well, fortunately, you've avoided the controversy that the National Endowment for the Arts has experienced.

    One of the areas of controversy has been the issue of how money is distributed, and it's a fairness question. One of the arguments with the NEA has been that so much money is concentrated in a limited number of communities. Aside from the State grant area, how do you fit into that situation? Are there any potential problems about how the money is distributed? Is there a bias towards Mississippi or a bias toward Colorado for example?

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    Mr. FERRIS. Well, maybe in my heart there might be a bias toward home—[laughter]—but, in reality, the Endowment has been eminently fair. We have funded every State in the Union in a significant way. The highest funding, which is 12 percent of our grant funds, has gone to New York State. But we are keenly, and I am personally, very much concerned about access to the humanities and equity of funding. The regional humanities centers will be one way of getting more humanities resources into each of our 10 great regions and of providing very broad distribution. Broad geographical distribution is also in place through our support for the State Humanities Councils, and we work closely with them.

    Part of my mission as Chairman will be to focus on each State Humanities Council. Some of those are quite well-funded and have State legislative support; others are not as successful. Through the Endowment, we want to help each of our State Councils grow stronger and to have a more active mission in what they do.

    Mr. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


    Mr. REGULA. I have just a couple of questions. Have you looked at the grant application, and have you given some thought to simplifying it a little bit?

    Mr. FERRIS. We have, and we are trying to make the

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Endowment as user-friendly as possible. All of our application information is now on our website on the Internet. So, we are now not only mailing out application forms, but we are also responding to inquiries and allowing people to have quick access to application instructions.

    One of the things that I wish to set up in the near future will be a ''smart classroom'' within the Old Post Office. For example: If your constituents in Ohio have questions of me or of any of our staff, they can sit face-to-face in front of the new technology we have, and we can talk about things without having to fly people across the country. We will share this resource with the National Endowment for the Arts, with the President's Committee on the Arts and the Humanities, and with the Institute of Museum and Library Services. We not only want to make our resources accessible, we want to make all of the resources within that block of cultural agencies grow in the same way that we are growing.

    Mr. REGULA. You see this as an interactive site, where the individual could be out in Ohio and——

    Mr. FERRIS. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA [continuing]. Communicate with your people?

    Mr. FERRIS. We can look, in the case of you and me, we could just as easily be on either end of the country and have a very comfortable conversation, and get a lot more done than trying to deal on the phone or by mail. But we don't have to spend the funds and take the time to fly and spend several days on the road.

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    We are trying to fine-tune the process of finding information about grants, of applying, and of making grants, so that we can be quick and efficient in serving the American people.

    Mr. REGULA. You might have heard the suggestion I made to NEA that Members be notified if grants go into their district. I think that would be a good public relations thing for your agency, too.

    Mr. FERRIS. I'm proud to say that that is already being done.

    Mr. REGULA. All right.

    Mr. FERRIS. Any time a grant is announced and is decided within the Endowment, the congressional leaders—and news releases are sent out to papers in the area, and we're going to increase that focus, so that——

    Mr. REGULA. Also, you should send a direct notice to the Member's office, because I know we often put out releases saying that we were advised today, about a grant announcement. I think it would be very useful.

    Mr. FERRIS. We will.

    Mr. REGULA. Do all 50 States have councils?

    Mr. FERRIS. Yes, they do.
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    Mr. REGULA. Do you have any idea how the State legislatures have been in the past few years in terms of supporting their own activities?

    Mr. FERRIS. I think they've been very supportive. They've received $6 million thus far from State legislatures in 1998. That's up from $5.2 million in 1997. My impression is that there are certain councils that are very aggressive and very knowledgeable about how to develop legislative support, while others are not.

    One of our missions will be to try to help those who are not as aggressive and successful learn the techniques from others that have been there and done it well, so that we can bring them all up on a fairly common level. I think that's just a question of time and a little education and work.


    Mr. REGULA. So you contemplate 10 regional centers. Would personnel from your office actually be located in a regional office, or how exactly would it function?

    Mr. FERRIS. This will be a very efficient, low-budget way of creating an institution. It in many ways will be not unlike what happened at the University of Mississippi. There will be an existing institution—like Ohio State, for example—that would simply create within that institution a regional curriculum and humanities research projects. There is already a curriculum, and I would suggest that any great university in the Nation will have many of the scholars already on staff. At Ohio State, for instance, there will be people who have dealt with the Midwest; at any of the western universities, there will be scholars who have dealt with the West.
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    These will be grants to institutions, so we're not creating anything that does not already exist. We are basically allowing an institution to grow. They will have no administrative ties to the Endowment. Once these centers are set up, they will be independent within those institutions, and will have autonomy to move in ways that they think appropriate.

    Mr. REGULA. But you would hope that they might, in turn, have satellite impacts from smaller schools, like a Kenyon, for example?

    Mr. FERRIS. Absolutely. One of the grounds on which we will choose grantees will be on their plan to collaborate not only with other schools, but also with museums, with libraries, and with other humanities institutions. We're going to be working closely with the National Park Service. Roger Kennedy is an old and close friend with whom I've worked on cultural tourism initiatives over the years. I met with him on Sunday, and we're going to bring him in with the new head of the National Park Service. We're making similar partnerships with the Department of Agriculture, with the Department of Education, with the Smithsonian, the Library of Congress—the list will go on at length—with Elder Hostel. We will have a slice of our initiative that will be connected to each of these institutions, so that they will lend a hand in what will be perhaps like a patchwork quilt of relationships.

    But the particular university that establishes a regional center will be the hub of a very broad and complicated wheel that will essentially serve its region and link it to the Nation in a way that's not possible today.

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    Mr. REGULA. Do you anticipate that you will be involved in the White House Millennium Project?

    Mr. FERRIS. We are already very much involved. The White House Millennium lectures are co-sponsored by the Endowment, and we are helping the White House choose speakers. The first two were highly successful: Lectures by Bernard Bailyn, a colonial historian from Harvard, and Stephen Hawking, a phyicist from Cambridge University were, with our assistance, down-linked with the support of Sun Microsystems, another one of our corporate partners. They were down-linked to community colleges throughout the Nation and to State Humanities Councils.

    These State Humanities Councils and these community and junior colleges are going to be formidable partners in everything we do, and especially in these regional initiatives.

    Mr. REGULA. Very well. We'll have some questions for the record and possibly from some of the other members.

    I have just a note of caution. Based on what appears to be the fiscal situation, it's unlikely we're going to be able to respond totally to the President's request. So we hope that we can consult with you in prioritizing what is available by way of funding, if we're not able to do all that's been requested.

    Mr. FERRIS. Well, I'm deeply grateful for that, and I'll work closely with you and your colleagues on that.
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    Mr. REGULA. Very well. I think that covers it. Thank you for coming. You've avoided the icebergs. The Subcommittee is adjourned. [Laughter.]

    [The following questions and answers were submitted for the record:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.





    Mr. REGULA. Good morning. The gentleman from Tennessee.

    Mr. GORDON. Thank you. Well, I think there are two things that we can be assured of this morning. One is the cherry blossoms have come out and the other is, I've come to see you. [Laughter.]
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    Mr. REGULA. You are a familiar face, and we are always happy to see you. I guess the reason you are always back is because we do not respond, necessarily. [Laughter.]

    Mr. GORDON. No, to the contrary, you have been generous, and I am here to thank you and to really let you know you have really made a difference.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, we are trying. We have a tough problem. It does not look like we will get much more in our allocation.

    Do you want additional funding?

    Mr. GORDON. Yes, sir. What we want to do is try to close out some of the good things you have already done for us. I have submitted testimony, and I will be very brief. Just a quick recap, as you might remember. Secretary Lujan put Stones River Battlefield on its 25 most endangered list. Of the over 5,000 battles and skirmishes during the Civil War, they determined that less than two dozen had a significant impact on the outcome of the war. Stones River is one of those.

    It has been sort of a stepchild over the years, and with your help now, it is, and part of the reason for my concern is that it is in my home county of Rutherford County. The most recent census estimate has just come out. We are the fastest growing county in Tennessee.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me ask you a question. It is now a park?
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    Mr. GORDON. In 1926, it was designated a park.

    Mr. REGULA. How many acres is it?

    Mr. GORDON. The original battlefield was 3,000. It was 300 acres, and with your help it has gone up to almost 400. But there is still a larger area within the existing boundaries.

    Mr. REGULA. That has yet to be acquired.

    Mr. GORDON. Yes, sir, and which is an absolute, because of the fast growing nature of it, it is a——

    Mr. REGULA. You are just asking for a continuation of the land acquisition?

    Mr. GORDON. Well, we're asking for $6 million for the land acquisition, which the Park Service estimates that the property boundary they can still get will take that out.

    Mr. REGULA. And finish it. This is not in the $699 million from FY99? Oh, it is. So you are in that package?

    Mr. GORDON. Yes, sir, we are between the 1998 and the 1999, we are very ecumenical, however you can do it, we are glad to have it. And if there can be some combination.
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    The other thing is that the Park Service has done a general management plan. I come on behalf of them. They are requesting a couple of things. One, the wayside exhibits have not been updated since 1962. They would like $300,000 to update those. And again, that is in their management plan.

    Also, they are asking for $150,000 to take the land that you have been able to purchase back to the Civil War kind of era.

    Mr. REGULA. Restore it.

    Mr. GORDON. Yes, sir. And then they are saying the exhibits within their visitors center are deteriorating. And they would like $175,000 for that.

    Mr. REGULA. And that is all in your statement?

    Mr. GORDON. Yes, sir.

    Mr. REGULA. All right. We will put that in the record and see how our allocation is. That is the key.

    Mr. GORDON. And again, I am grateful for what you have done. You have made a difference. That area could have just dropped off and we would have lost it because of this growth. I think we have a little beachhead, and I hope you will be proud of what you have been able to do there.
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    [The statement of Mr. Gordon follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you. I have been reading The Andersonville Diary. Next week, they are going to dedicate the Prisoner of War Museum in Andersonville, which was a big Confederate prison. A lot of the Union soldiers died there, but probably a lot of the Confederates also.

    Mr. GORDON. It is amazing, the cult seems like it is small, but it is a large cult of people that follow this.

    Mr. REGULA. I have people in my district who make a challenge of visiting every battlefield. It is amazing.

    Mr. GORDON. Tennessee is one of the heritage areas, and thank you, and it is a heritage area on the Civil War. So people will be able to come in and really follow the whole shift. It really has become a national following there.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.

    I see we have some young Close Up people here this morning. We are happy to welcome you. This committee is the one that is responsible for funding parks and forests and battlefields and preservation of our cultural heritage. Where are you from?
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    Nebraska. Well, the Lewis and Clark expedition went through Nebraska. Your member is going to be here later on asking for money. These are members of Congress who have projects. I assume none of you have a project you want to pitch this morning. [Laughter.]

    But the members want to say to our committee, as in the case of this last member, they need money for a battlefield in Tennessee which is already part of the park system. So we are happy to welcome you. You will have to help pay the money we are spending, so you should really come here. But you also get to enjoy the parks, so it works both ways.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.






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    Mr. REGULA. Okay, Mr. Kennedy is not here. Mr. McGovern, Blackstone River.

    Mr. MCGOVERN. Let me just say to the Close Up kids, what I am about to testify on is a very worthwhile project. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. I have not found one so far that is not.

    Mr. MCGOVERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and express my appreciation to this committee for your past support for the Blackstone Valley National Heritage Corridor, a destination which has brought attention to its communities. As you know, the corridor is in Massachusetts and Rhode Island.

    Mr. REGULA. I am very familiar with it, because we have had it in the past. I have a corridor in my district. What do you need this year?

    Mr. MCGOVERN. Money.

    Mr. WEYGAND. The amount of money we are looking for, Mr. Chairman, is approximately $2.2 million for park construction. The Department of the Interior has always put in operational money, as well as interpretive money and technical assistance money. But the real key is construction money.

    Mr. REGULA. Do you want to extend it?

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    Mr. WEYGAND. We want to do actually renovation and construction within the corridor, which really has not been done. Since its designation about 12 years ago, and I grew up on the Blackstone River in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, four of us actually, Patrick Kennedy has perhaps the largest share in Rhode Island. My district has a part of it in Rhode Island. Jim McGovern has the next one, and Richard Neal has the next one.

    Mr. REGULA. What is the portion of it?

    Mr. WEYGAND. Forty-six miles, I believe, and it's about 14 to 20 miles wide.

    Mr. REGULA. Oh, really?

    Mr. WEYGAND. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. So it is quite a corridor, then.

    Mr. WEYGAND. It goes along the Blackstone River, but it also shoots out with some of the spurs or the tributaries that come off it because some of the mills and the industrial development that occurred along it. So it is actually a corridor. In some parts, it is about 14 miles wide, maybe longer.

    But primarily, it is probably two or three at its mean width.

    Mr. REGULA. Is there hiking, bicycling, camping?
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    Mr. MCGOVERN. Everything.

    Mr. WEYGAND. We have all of it. Matter of fact, the State of Rhode Island is doing some bond issues right now, has already done a design on a bicycle corridor that runs up it. I believe Massachusetts is working on it.

    Mr. MCGOVERN. We are trying to get some funding in ISTEA for the bike path.

    Mr. WEYGAND. As well as we are for the bike path.

    Mr. REGULA. What kind of local money do you have? We are always looking for matches.

    Mr. WEYGAND. What's happened on the local front, I will speak for Rhode Island, and I am sure Congressman Neal and Congressman McGovern will talk about Massachusetts, but in Rhode Island what we have seen is the cities have contributed money for interpretive centers and other types of things. They have also begun to do municipal parks along the edge of the river. We are having some private development with regard to businesses who are trying to get close to the river for development.

    And we actually have through contributions a boat called the Explorer which takes, and I have actually been a tour guide on it, people up the river to show them what the river looks like from the river side out versus looking down. When I was a kid growing up, there were mattresses, tires, cars and all kinds of things in the river. It was just a garbage place. Now what we have also seen is kids, like the kids from Nebraska here, come in and clean up the river. Advocates have been doing that. Same way up through Massachusetts, up through Worcester. So we have the advocacy, we have the private investment.
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    Mr. REGULA. Corridors really generate volunteerism.

    Mr. MCGOVERN. Absolutely. I have never seen anything that has brought the community closer than this. Business, students, elected officials at every level. The excitement it has generated is really quite incredible.

    Mr. REGULA. Was this river part of the textile industry?

    Mr. WEYGAND. Yes, that is what the corridor was for. It was part of the industrial revolution. Slater Mill, which is the first major mill in the United States, is right on the mouth of the river.

    The other thing that is good is that we have actually used it in terms of tourism for our State. It now becomes a tourism destination. We have a sister city in England, the city councils have gone back and forth and exchanged.

    So it is working very well. But the problem we have, quite frankly, is the Federal Government has not invested some real construction money into it. And that is probably the key for Massachusetts, as well as Rhode Island.

    Mr. REGULA. Will the States put in any match, if we made a grant condition on a State match? We like to stimulate the States.

    Mr. NEAL. The State is very interested in doing that. The Chatucket extension that has been proposed would include State participation.
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    Mr. WEYGAND. In the State of Rhode Island also we have a bond issue which will go out this year for greenways and bikeways which will include this as well.

    Mr. REGULA. Do you have a governing group that comes from both States?

    Mr. WEYGAND. Yes.

    Mr. MCGOVERN. Yes.

    Mr. WEYGAND. It is an interstate group of people who have developed a master plan as well that the Secretary has approved.

    Mr. REGULA. Do you think that if we made the appropriation subject to some kind of a match from the local communities, this would stimulate them to give you some help?

    Mr. NEAL. Maybe I could speak to that, Mr. Chairman. I think what might be a good idea, since you raise that question, is perhaps if you were to visit to make that argument. Senator Chafee has been terrific on this, as have Congressmen Weygand and Kennedy and McGovern. And first, let me thank you as well. As the weather changes, I am back here asking you for support for this project every year.

    Mr. REGULA. I like the corridors. It is just a matter of having the money. I know ours is very popular. It is a matter of money and a matter of trying to stimulate the local people to contribute.
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    Mr. NEAL. Right. I think the dollar match on the Massachusetts side is about four to one, private to public. So it has been very helpful.

    Mr. REGULA. We could make it either/or. Just so it is matched, what the Feds do would be matched either by the private sector and/or the State and/or the local community.

    Mr. WEYGAND. And in-kind, because we have a lot of companies along the river who have actually donated, for instance, the Explorer boat that I was telling you about, part of it, hulls were actually developed by private businesses for it, and people in Massachusetts have done the same thing.

    So if the formula is flexible enough to allow for in-kind public and private match to the Federal match, I think you would see that the $2.2 million we are talking about could easily be matched, if you're flexible, Mr. Chairman, in the way it is matched.

    [The statements of Messrs. Neal, McGovern, Kennedy and Weygand follow:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. NEAL. We would love to have you come up and take a look at it.

    Mr. WEYGAND. Give you a tour on the boat.
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    Mr. REGULA. It's a big country.

    Mr. NEAL. You're that prominent, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. I really enjoy looking at these. We are going to do a couple over the Easter recess.

    We will do the best we can. We do not know exactly what we are going to have in our allocation, whether it will be up, down or whatever. It depends on how much ISTEA takes away from us.

    Mr. NEAL. Well, we are going to rush right over to the Floor today to help Mr. Shuster. I do not know what to tell you. He has more than a little enthusiasm for that endeavor. [Laughter.]

    Mr. REGULA. That is just reality.

    Thank you very much.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.

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    Mr. REGULA. Okay, the gentlelady from Bair Island. I know your story pretty well.

    Ms. ESHOO. I know you do. Good morning, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. I have not had a chance to talk to Doug Wheeler.

    Ms. ESHOO. Well, let me just make some comments for the record. I know that you know this case as well as each one of us from my area in California. It is Bair Island.

    For the students that—excuse me—I have my back to, you should know that the Chairman travels all over the country to see the projects that we come here requesting the dollar assistance for. He traveled to California last August when members of Congress really look forward to taking that time off and not working and being with their families. But he took the time and trouble to come to California to see this project.

    I am requesting today, Mr. Chairman, the remainder of dollars that would complete the purchase of Bair Island.

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    Mr. REGULA. The State has yet to contribute.

    Ms. ESHOO. Exactly. Well, they have come up with $1.1 million. And I think your telephone call to Doug Wheeler, which I certainly will back up, would be not only appropriate but certainly helpful. It's the third year I've come before the committee. Were it not for the significant down payment last year, this project would not be where it is.

    The Peninsula Open Space Trust Post, I should add, of the $5 million that they have committed to raise, they have, I believe $4.1 million to date. That represents over 3,000 individual contributions. So the people of the area have really rolled their sleeves up. I know you like to see a partnership, and I think this is one of the better ones in the country.

    Mr. REGULA. It is impressive what they have done.

    Ms. ESHOO. It is. Very impressive.

    So you know how strongly we feel about it. You came, you got your boots, you went out there. I have a full statement for the record, and I would like to submit that to you.

    If you have any questions at this time, I would be happy to answer them.

    [The statement of Ms. Eshoo follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."
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    Mr. REGULA. I know the project well.

    Ms. ESHOO. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Mr. Chairman, has placed this at the top of their list. And they continue to support the project, certainly from the region.

    Mr. REGULA. How about Ducks Unlimited?

    Ms. ESHOO. They have not participated in this, no. They have not.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, well, we are very aware of your project. It's a good project. I think if we can get the State to come along as we expected last year, we will be able to finish it.

    Ms. ESHOO. They have done $1.1 million so far. So maybe between the two of us being a good set of bookends, we can eke some more money out of them. More than anything else, I want to thank you for your support and for the time and trouble that you have taken to not only come to California, but to ask very good questions and then come away with a fuller picture of what we are trying to achieve there. Without your support, we could not do this.

    Mr. REGULA. We are happy to do it.

    Ms. ESHOO. Thank you. We are pleased with what we are able to bring to you, too. We know that you like to motivate the dollars from the State, examine what the private sector, the community is willing to do. And that is why I think this is a——
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    Mr. REGULA. You have a good organization in Post.

    Ms. ESHOO. Absolutely. They are superb.

    Mr. REGULA. Just a little aside, since we have started charging fees in the parks, vandalism is down. People become stakeholders. It is true here, you said 3,000 people have contributed. When they make a contribution, they are buying into the project, which I think strengthens it.

    Ms. ESHOO. And it becomes, as I have said to people in the community, their voices and what they choose to do really is the most eloquent statement that can be made. Because anyone can come here and say, this is a fabulous project, this is the money that we need, we need 100 percent Federal funding. But we are stretched, and the community needs to make its expressions known as well.

    Mr. REGULA. And the community will thank you and others for leaving this legacy. Because as the greater Bay area becomes probably double your population in the next 25 to 50 years——

    Ms. ESHOO. Yes, when you flew over it, you could see where the green belt was and the incursion of the development. It will be your legacy as well, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.

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    Ms. ESHOO. I'm glad the students are here, too.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Kennedy.

    Mr. KENNEDY. From what I understand, just to reiterate, I am sorry that the White House did not put up the additional money that we are requesting for park operations, because we doubled the size of the corridor and the construction funds. Because they are integral, as you know, to making the project work.

    In any event, because I remember talking to you a number of times on the Floor about this. We wanted to get what the corridor needed, and obviously, we were not helped by the fact that the White House did not put in for the full amount. But this committee did recognize the need to put in sufficient funds to keep it going adequately.

    Obviously, it has not been enough, but we appreciate the committee, it did more than the White House did.
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    Mr. REGULA. I am familiar with what you are doing, and I like the corridors. I asked the other members who were here representing the corridor, if it would work if we made any allocation conditioned on a match from a private, county, State, or local entity, whatever. It leverages our dollars if we can do that.

    Mr. KENNEDY. There is a great deal of support for the corridor. I feel that I could actively lobby my local people to put up some money, if there is sufficient latitude to where the money comes from, from the private sector, I think we can do that.

    Mr. REGULA. I do not see why we cannot give you broad latitude. The corridor bill we passed in the Omnibus Parks Bill a couple of years ago had a match requirement for corridors. We put a maximum of a million dollars a year for the Federal share, and conditioned it on an equal amount from whatever source.

    Mr. KENNEDY. I would think that would be a big help. It gives us something, whereas we would not have it. We would certainly welcome that as an opportunity.

    Mr. REGULA. That is probably the approach we will try to take.

    Mr. KENNEDY. Thank you.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.

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Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Vento.

    Mr. VENTO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is service. I appreciate the chance to visit with you formally and put on the record my statement. I would ask to submit for your files or record or however you prefer Department of the Interior documents and papers that deal with a memorandum and a contract signed by the Park Service and so forth, with respect to this Mississippi National River Recreation area.

    Mr. REGULA. Is it an existing area?

    Mr. VENTO. Yes, Mr. Chairman. We had designed it in 1988, set up a commission and they had come forth with a general management plan. Subsequently, the Science Museum of Minnesota made a determination to build about a million dollar facility on the banks of the river, adjacent to the St. Peter Sandstone Bluffs, which define the river valley in this area.

    So it is a spectacular site. And they had invited in the Park Service positively responded to in fact locate in this facility, the construction is underway for that facility. And so I am requesting that we provide the funds to execute the agreement that Secretary Babbitt and the Park Service have made.
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    [The statement of Mr. Vento follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Would this be for construction?

    Mr. VENTO. It is for the fixtures and the work inside. They will occupy about 8,000 square feet in the entrance to the facility.

    Mr. REGULA. The Park Service would?

    Mr. VENTO. Yes. And they need the ability to do the fixtures in terms of having the river gallery, which they have in terms of their visitor center-like environment. It would be for the planning of that and the execution of it. We also have a commitment to begin work on a facility on the river site itself, so it would be an education center.

    Mr. REGULA. How much money are we talking about?

    Mr. VENTO. We are talking totally this year about $2 million, Mr. Chairman.

    I also want to put a plug in for the other facility that has worked in partnership with the Minnesota Historical Society, which is our Ship Hope in Minnesota that Congressman Sabo has written a request for, which deals with the St. Anthony mill site, which is a Minnesota Historical Society adaptive area for interpretation. The milling activity on the river, as you know, was the home of Pillsbury and General Mills and other such.
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    We have done a little bit of milling in terms of the using water power and so forth. Today, it's obviously changed a great deal.

    So these are all collaborative. Specifically, the Science Museum agreement is something that needs to be executed now.

    I know that you have a tough budget. I applaud the efforts of the Department of the Interior in terms of safety and health.

    Mr. REGULA. We will do what we can. We do not know what our allocation is, so we cannot really tell.

    Mr. VENTO. These are existing contracts, and I think it essential to in a sense try to complete and give direction to it. I think this direction obviously leverages our dollars in terms of going further, if we're going to build visitor centers.

    Mr. REGULA. Do you have all the information in your statement?

    Mr. VENTO. I have the information in my statement, and I have attached documents for your consideration, for your file or record, however you want to deal with it. I do not want you to print voluminous records, but I think you need the information.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.

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Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Ms. Pelosi.

    Ms. PELOSI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I know that you are very familiar with the request I am going to make about the Presidio because of your continued interest and leadership on this issue. Without you, we would not be where we are today, which is well on our way to a successful transition. So I want to thank you and members of the committee for all of your leadership and cooperation on this.

    I will submit my statement for the record.

    Mr. REGULA. Yes, and I really know the situation well. If things work out, we will take another look at it this summer.

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    Ms. PELOSI. Right. And as you know, our request is for $25 million, $14.9 million of that goes to the trust. The balance is for the Park Service for the transitional operations, the Treasury borrowing. It includes $25 million each fiscal year, as is in the President's budget.

    We have great success with Crissy Field because of your cooperation.

    Mr. REGULA. I saw that story on Crissy Field. It is going to be great.

    Ms. PELOSI. I think this will just be the start of the serious philanthropy that we need in the Presidio, the environmental cleanup and the rest of the Presidio is important. If you have any questions about staffing and the rest, it is in my statement.

    [The statement of Ms. Pelosi follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. I met the new director.

    Ms. PELOSI. We are very impressed.

    Mr. REGULA. I think he has the background that really will be helpful.

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    Ms. PELOSI. I stand ready to answer any questions you may have.

    Mr. REGULA. It seems to be going well so far.

    Ms. PELOSI. We just have to withstand an initiative on the ballot, to which I have written an opposing ballot argument. But whatever happens on the ballot, I think we are making very clear to everyone there that Congress will determine the fate of the trust.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Clyburn.
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    Mr. CLYBURN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me thank you for allowing me to be here this morning and thank you for your help last year on the three projects I am here to talk about.

    I looked on the list and I saw a blank space behind my name. I hope that does not mean what it could mean. It could be a whole wide range.

    Mr. REGULA. We could not fit all of the issues on the list.

    Mr. CLYBURN. Thank you.

    First of all, Mr. Chairman, I am interested in the Historically Black Colleges and Universities Historic Preservation Program, as you know. That program is authorized at $29 million, and you were very kind last year, appropriated $5 million for us, that leaves $24 million of the authorized amount there.

    I think the Administration has recommended $15 million, I believe, in their budget. Is it $9 million increased over last time? Right.

    Mr. REGULA. Their total recommendations for the bill are $1.1 billion over last year, and there is no way we are going to get there. But we will do what we can.

    Mr. CLYBURN. I really appreciate that.

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    As you know, what I want to make clear, of the remaining $24 million authorized, only $5.1 million of that is authorized for South Carolina. So I am not here just to argue for my State, I am here to argue for the program, as it is a national program.

    I do have two other projects that are projects in the State I am very interested in. First, $3 million for the Congaree Swamp National Monument in South Carolina. We are very interested in that. I want to point out, Mr. Chairman, that this $3 million would be 50 percent of what the project will cost. We have a coordinated effort by parties in the State, the South Carolina Army National Guard, the Air National Guard, the River Alliance, the Friends of Congaree, all agreeing to put up $3 million. But of course, their agreement is on whether we can get this.

    Finally, we are requesting $1 million for the South Carolina Heritage Corridor.

    Mr. REGULA. Is that corridor in the Omnibus Bill?

    Mr. CLYBURN. Yes, sir. I forget exactly what the level was last year, but we would like the authorized amount.

    Mr. REGULA. It is a match, too, the way the bill is written.

    Mr. CLYBURN. Absolutely. I want to point out that of the $5 million appropriated last year, only $800,000 came to South Carolina for Allen University.

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    Mr. REGULA. In the Historically Black Colleges account?

    Mr. CLYBURN. Yes, sir. We have already put up the $800,000 match. They have been down there, they are now doing bids. This is having a tremendous positive impact on that campus, in that community. So I just wanted to point that out to let you know that these are efforts, this building has been boarded up for almost 40 years.

    Mr. REGULA. It is now being rehabbed?

    Mr. CLYBURN. It is now being rehabbed because of your kindnesses last year.

    Mr. REGULA. Are you familiar with the Park Service assessment of priorities?

    Mr. CLYBURN. Yes, sir, at my request.

    Mr. REGULA. We will of course be sensitive to that.

    Mr. CLYBURN. Please. That is exactly right.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you very much.

    [The statement of Mr. Clyburn follows:]

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    offset folios 753 to 754 insert here

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Mica. Is this the one on the Tamiami Trail?

    Mr. MICA. No, sir, this is Seminole Rest in Central Florida.

    Mr. REGULA. Is that the one we visited? We were in Florida for a tour of the Everglades, and we stopped to see the Seminole Indians.

    Mr. MICA. I will submit this full statement, if I may, for the record, Mr. Chairman. This site is located in Central Florida. And actually, you can not tell very well from this map. Along here is Canaveral National Seashore. This is the ocean side. In between is a lagoon that is called Mosquito Lagoon and Inlet.

    The National Seashore Park runs for about 29 miles along the coast. It is the last undeveloped stretch of ocean frontage on the entire Florida east coast.

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    Mr. REGULA. Is that now a national park?

    Mr. MICA. Yes, national park, largest ocean front in Florida.

    The Park Service acquired in 1988 property over on this side of this picture. What we have over on this side is an old Indian shell mound. On this side, we have another Indian shell mount, it is probably one of the last remaining shell mounds fairly intact in Florida. The Indians, thousands of years ago, developed these shell mounds.

    One reason that it is intact, in the 1800s, they built two pioneer homes on top of the mounds. Some of the mounds are on the earliest Spanish maps. But we have two pioneer 1800 residences on there.

    These have been left in total deterioration since 1988. The area has been boarded up.

    Mr. REGULA. Who has title to these right now?

    Mr. MICA. The National Park Service.

    Mr. REGULA. This is within the boundaries?

    Mr. MICA. Oh, yes.

    Mr. REGULA. Is this part of the one out along the seashore?
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    Mr. MICA. Yes, exactly, but it is on the other side.

    Mr. REGULA. I understand.

    Mr. MICA. So they own it, they have had title to is since 1988, and it is just boarded up. Since I came into office, we have been trying to get some attention to this.

    What they have done so far is they have conducted a study, I think they spent $50,000 or $100,000 on the study. We have had some very severe weather and storms in Florida, and as you can see, properties deteriorate. They did spend about $18,000 to $20,000 doing some temporary roof repair, so that the entire buildings would not be destroyed.

    Mr. REGULA. Why are these unique?

    Mr. MICA. They are unique because they are pioneer Florida homes, and they are also on top of these Indian shell mounds. So while they may not be old by standards of some other areas, it is very unique to Florida.

    Mr. REGULA. Your proposal in this study is just geared to restoring these two homes.

    Mr. MICA. These two homes, and also access to the shell mount. They have developed a full plan, the full plan is an $8 million plan. We are asking for $3 million, and we have a breakdown of how that can be phased in, just to restore the homes.
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    The other problem is it is not an easy thing to do, because you are dealing with an Indian shell mound. If this is just where we could go in and take bulldozers and plow it down, but we have had to satisfy all kinds of cultural, historic, artifact interest, and to get access to the property is a little bit more expensive than usual.

    As a developer, I could do this for 10 percent if I did not have to deal with the cultural and historical issues.

    Mr. REGULA. You will use these like museums once they are restored?

    Mr. MICA. Yes. And there is also an adaptive use. I guess they have several plans in there for caretakers. Also, there is no ability to do anything on this side of the lagoon. So they need some facilities on that, they use it as a caretaker and storage part of it. You do not want to all be open to the public.

    But right now, it is all boarded off and sealed off, and it has remained that way.

    Again, we can continue to put money into it for minor repairs, just to stabilize it. But we have to do something in the long term. It is one of our most historic properties. You see the condition. We cannot afford to have it deteriorate.

    [The statement of Mr. Mica follows:]
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    offset folios 760 to 764 insert here

    Mr. MICA. It is a priority in one of the President's priorities. It may not be too high on the scale, because we have just started in the last two years trying to beat the drums to get something done.

    It is a very high priority with the community, though, because the thing is sitting there and it is a disgrace.

    Mr. REGULA. What is the nearest community?

    Mr. MICA. We have New Smyrna Beach, Edgewater, it is actually in the city of Oak Hill. It is also important to Oak Hill, because this is a fishing village that dates back to the mid-1800s. Florida imposed a net ban, and most of these folks in that area have been put out of work.

    Mr. REGULA. Did the State put any money in?

    Mr. MICA. We can get participation, I'm sure, from the State. We have also restored another house, El Doro, and this committee has helped us. There is another house on the seashore park, another part of it. A good portion of that was funded by the local community through local efforts. So they have been very good participants.

    But we are getting more and visitors. The faculties that we have there are being strained to the max.
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    Mr. REGULA. We like to make what we do conditioned on State and/or local participation so we can stretch the dollars.

    Mr. MICA. Absolutely. I'm sure we can get participation. We do need a Federal commitment, too, and I would pledge to help with that.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay. Thank you for coming.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Pallone.

    Mr. PALLONE. Thank you for hearing me once again. I have a full statement for the record, which I will submit.

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    I am only going to talk about Sandy Hook and the OCS moratorium today. You have been very helpful in the past in terms for getting appropriations for various purposes in Sandy Hook. It is part of the Gateway National Recreation System in the New York Harbor area. We have about 2.5 million visitors annually.

    What I would like to request is $5.59 million for park operations in fiscal year 1999. But I wanted to talk about several improvement projects at Sandy Hook, some of which are in the President's proposed budget.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me ask, can they collect fees there?

    Mr. PALLONE. Yes, they do collect fees.

    Mr. REGULA. So this will generate some money for some of these things.

    Mr. PALLONE. Yes, but I think the way it works, Mr. Chairman, is that the fees go into the general Gateway budget. So they don't necessarily earmark the fees.

    Mr. REGULA. Is Sandy Hook part of Gateway?

    Mr. PALLONE. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. So the superintendent of Gateway, could make a decision as to how to use their fees. We give them a lot of latitude on that.
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    Mr. PALLONE. I don't know if they do, or if it comes from D.C. But I know that the fee is collected, and the locals are always complaining to me, they think they collect more than they get back for their particular unit. But whether that's true——

    Mr. REGULA. Eighty percent stays there.

    Mr. PALLONE. Whether that is true or not, I do not know.

    In any case, I wanted to talk about several improvement projects. You helped us last year, actually it has been a couple of years now. Because what we have at Sandy Hook is, there is a critical zone at the entrance to the hook which washes away if it is not adequately protected by sand. And there are a lot of things that go on out there, there is a Coast Guard station, a NOAA lab, all kinds of government, State, Federal and local government agencies and educational institutions.

    And they are all cut off. About 1,000 employees work at Sandy Hook, even in the winter, as opposed to the summer, when you have the 2.5 million visitors. And if this critical zone is cut off, as it has been twice this year, once for 48 hours and another time——

    Mr. REGULA. By high water?

    Mr. PALLONE. By high water and storms. Northeasters, essentially.
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    Mr. REGULA. You are talking about a bridge.

    Mr. PALLONE. Well, no. What we have done, and you have actually already helped with this is, we used shore protection, beach replenishment to build up the critical, to keep water away. But what happened is last year, in the budget, you appropriated $4.8 million. We used most of it to build a pipeline, so we can take sand that washes north and pump it back into the critical zone, as well as for some beach replenishment where they take the sand from offshore.

    But in order for this to be effective, we have to build up the beach to where it was a few years ago before it started washing away. Then the pump can work on an annual basis.

    So that is what I am requesting. We need about $14 million in order to have the beach replenishment intact the way it was five or six years ago, when the last beach replenishment project was done.

    Mr. REGULA. Have you gone to the Corps of Engineers at all?

    Mr. PALLONE. Well, they would do it, but I always thought the funding had to come through you.

    Mr. REGULA. They can do it if they choose to spend their own money, too.
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    Mr. PALLONE. They have always told me the opposite, that the appropriation had to come through Interior.

    Mr. REGULA. I cannot answer as to whether they have spent their own money in the past or not. Do you know, Debbie?

    Ms. WEATHERLY. Yes, they used to do it.

    Mr. PALLONE. Not in the 10 years I have been here. Maybe prior to that. But in the 10 years I have been here, I have always had to ask you for the funding. This was first done when I was first here, maybe in 1989, 1990, when there was about $6 million to do the large beach replenishment. And then it gradually wore away of the next seven or eight years.

    So that is why we came up with this pump system. But unless we build that beach up again to where it was, then the pump really is not pumping anything essentially. That is it on that one.

    The other thing is the lighthouse. The President has put in $884,000 for rehab of the Sandy Hook lighthouse, which is the oldest operating lighthouse in the country. I just would like you to make sure that that is in the budget again.

    [The statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]

    offset folios 772 to 775 insert here
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    Mr. REGULA. As I say, the President's total request for this subcommittee is $1.1 billion over what we had last year. And I think it is highly unlikely that our allocation through the budget process will be much over what we had last year.

    Mr. PALLONE. Well, see, your allocation is less than what the President has requested. I was not aware of that.

    Mr. REGULA. Oh, yes. We do not know yet what it is going to be. It won't be as high as the President's request, though the administration plays little games. I know this comes as a real shock to you.

    Mr. PALLONE. No, but——


    Mr. PALLONE. I did not realize your allocation was so much less than what he requested.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, both parties have done some of this, you know. They send up a budget and all they are doing is using a pencil. Then we have to be the heavies, saying, yes, that is fine, but where is the money.

    As you know, $1.1 billion more than last year is not likely to materialize. So what we would like you to do, Frank, is get to the staff your priorities. Assuming we cannot do it all, what is most important.
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    Mr. PALLONE. Okay. Well, I am trying to do that today, but I realize, do not misunderstand me, I understand that just because it's in the President's budget, I know you cannot necessarily do all those things.

    Let me just mention one more thing. And I will not get into details. But in the President's budget also there is a whole list of rehab for the water and sewer systems at Sandy Hook, the code and fire safety, those kinds of code and life safety improvements. I just want you to know that I support those as well. But we will look at it.

    Mr. REGULA. I know that would be a high priority for you, and it certainly would be for us.

    Mr. PALLONE. Because of the life saving aspect.

    Mr. REGULA. Start out with health and safety as number one, and these other things as possible.

    Mr. PALLONE. I will go back and do that. Let me just mention one other thing, and that is that OCS moratorium. I know you put it in every year for the pre-leasing and the activities. I would like you to do the same thing again for the Mid-Atlantic.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, in all probability, we will, even though personally I do not agree with it. But I can count votes.

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    Mr. PALLONE. All right. Thanks again.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mrs. Cubin.

    Ms. CUBIN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I appreciate the opportunity of being here. And I am pleased to inform you that the legislation that relates to the issue I am to discuss passed on unanimous consent yesterday, I believe it was.

    H.R. 2186 is the National Historic Interpretive Center Authorization Act. It requests $5 million to be authorized for use by the Bureau of Land Management to construct the National Historic Trails Interpretive Center.

    Here is something I think I have not made clear to you in the past, and to other members of the committee. This is not a new project. BLM has already expended $500,000 for this project. The City of Casper has increased sales taxes in that, the money that the city, the State, and the private foundation, along with the BLM, signed a memorandum of understanding in 1992. And each spelled out how much the other party would raise and what the commitments would be.
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    Everyone has met their commitment except the BLM. The citizens of Casper voted to increase the sales tax to pay for their share. The State of Wyoming gave $700,000. The city also donated 10 acres of very, very prime land for this project.

    Mr. REGULA. This would be a new building.

    Ms. CUBIN. It is a new building, but the way it is set up, between the money that the private people, the foundation brings together, is that it is only for construction. There will be no maintenance costs nor operating costs to the BLM once the building is built.

    Mr. REGULA. What would this interpret?

    Ms. CUBIN. I am glad you asked that. In Casper, Wyoming, where I live, it is the only place in the country where the wagon trails converged. There is the Mormon Trail, the Oregon Trail, the California Trail and the Pony Express. Also the Bozeman Trail and the beginnings of the Bridge Trail start there in Casper, plus many Indian crossings.

    When you think of a trail, you think of——

    Mr. REGULA. So it is designed to tell the story of the confluence of the trails?

    Ms. CUBIN. That is exactly right. It is an interpretive center. It is a thing that you walk through and you experience, life-size, the wagon train coming through. This is not just something that is of interest to the people of Wyoming. I cannot remember the year, but it was like 1993 or 1994, the tourism to Grand Teton National Park and Yellowstone National Park was way down.
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    But at the same time, we experienced a higher, by about a million higher, number of tourists from around the country to visit the trails and attend the events that were held to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the trails. People actually get in wagon trains and go along for a few days and live the life.

    Mr. REGULA. Were Lewis and Clark there?

    Ms. CUBIN. Lewis and Clark were in Montana, I think, more than in Wyoming.

    Now, there is another thing I need to tell you, see, I should have just followed my notes, instead of getting all disorganized.

    Mr. REGULA. It is part of the strategy.

    Ms. CUBIN. It is. [Laughter.]

    Congress has recognized the historical significance of these trails. The National Trail System Act, which was amended in 1978 and 1992, designates the Oregon, Mormon, California and Pony Express Trails as National Historic Trails. It also requires the Secretary of the Interior to protect, interpret and manage them.

    Mr. REGULA. That would be part of the center, though?

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    Ms. CUBIN. That would be the center.

    Mr. REGULA. Can this be done in increments?

    Ms. CUBIN. I do not know. I will get back to you on that. The reason I do not know that is I know they are ready to dig the hole and pour the concrete. Because everyone else has come forward with the money they committed to raise. And the surveying, the posts are in the ground.

    Mr. REGULA. But you just got the authorization?

    Ms. CUBIN. Right, but the BLM in 1992 agreed to spend the money out of their budget in 1992. They just have not done it.

    So we do have an offset that we will present, I think we sent a letter to you about that. But they agreed to do this in 1992, and have not found it yet to do so. But everyone else has performed their part.

    [The statement of Ms. Cubin follows:]

    Offset folios 783 to 785 insert here

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, we will take a good look at it.

    Ms. CUBIN. I know you will, Mr. Chairman, and you will just love the offset we are sending to you. Thank you.
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    Mr. REGULA. What is the offset?

    Ms. CUBIN. We will tell you later. [Laughter.]


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Okay, Mr. Miller.

    Mr. MILLER. She is right on the visitor center. I had an opportunity to go out on another matter to that area. When you actually get a chance to see these trails in the country, it is fairly emotional.

    Mr. REGULA. I'm curious, are the trails marked?

    Mr. MILLER. Yes, this is an area where the trails actually come together, so a number of the trails are in fact marked as part of the centennials of the different trails. They are there in the ground, there are the ruts.
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    Ms. CUBIN. The problem is that they are being—my time is up, sorry.

    Mr. MILLER. You are using mine rather rapidly. [Laughter.]

    Ms. CUBIN. They are being destroyed. They are going away, because we haven't had the money.

    Mr. REGULA. Who has title to the land where the trails are?

    Ms. CUBIN. The BLM.

    Mr. REGULA. So it is on BLM land, so they do have some ability to protect it.

    Ms. CUBIN. They do, but not the resources.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay.

    Ms. CUBIN. Thanks.

    Mr. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to be very brief. Two points that I would like to make.

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    I am going to submit to you longer testimony that has a couple of other issues in it with respect to the PAC moratorium and the $100 fee that your committee has addressed in the past, that are not new. But if I can just take a moment this morning.

    In the President's funding request, there is $2 million for the UPARR program, which I think is a vitally important program that over the years has provided small grants to several hundred cities and States and the District and Puerto Rico to try and reclaim recreational facilities that have fallen into disrepair. You are familiar with this.

    Unfortunately, in 1995, as the broader budget cutbacks, UPARR was eliminated. I think at that time, nearly 200 communities had put forth matching programs for that legislation to try and reclaim these facilities.

    We took this up with the Administration as they were putting together their budget. I think this converges with a lot of other concerns that all of us have about what happens to young children in the after school hours. I think that is why so many police departments, recreational professionals, local governments, a lot of the major league baseball, the NBA, a lot of people have supported this and contributed money to this effort and contributed equipment, to try and reclaim some of these facilities that are not usable in their current situation.

    I would hope that you would retain that $2 million. I would hope that you can do better than that, but I am very aware of the pressure that this committee is under, and all the competing claims you have. But I hope you would really understand that that is part of a mosaic to really help some of our young children out in after school recreational opportunities.
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    Secondly, I would just like to make a recommendation to this committee. Last week, our committee, the Resources Committee, sat through hearings, actually, it was—you were there, appropriations on the Forest Service. I think we are all very dismayed about what has happened there and the lack of accountability. I think we are somewhat encouraged by the fact that the IG and the GAO indicate that the Forest Service is on the right track, but it is not going to happen overnight.

    I had earlier introduced legislation which would have taken the major funds to salvage the KV, the brush disposal, roads and trails, and put them back on budget. I think that would work, but I do not know if we are not maybe making life more complicated to reform this effort than that. I would just like to recommend to this committee that I think maybe what you ought to require as part of your report is that those funds report to you a financial accounting for the expenditures of those funds.

    The problem we had was those funds were distributed locally, everybody is kind of individually responsible, and nobody is responsible for telling us how they have spent those funds. I would think if you told them over the next three years to give you annual reports that this may be somewhere between bringing them back on budget and keeping them off budget, which there is a big constituency in the west, obviously, to keep them off budget.

    But also, may continue this realignment of thinking about being accountable to us on what is going on with these funds.

    [The statement of Mr. Miller follows:]
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    Offset folios 792 to 795 insert here

    Mr. REGULA. You heard the news overnight about how they have done a large Government audit. I think only a couple of agencies passed muster.

    Mr. MILLER. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. It is a tragedy, billions of dollars are unaccounted for, according to the news.

    Mr. MILLER. You and I are asked all the time by our constituents, why do you not run the Government like a business. There are a lot of reasons we do not, a lot of politics in why we do not. But I think when you look at the total amount of money in these funds, for them to simply parcel them out, and people, as we heard, start changing definitions on what the funds can be used for and not be used for, if they were to provide you a unitized accounting for those funds, I think we would have more confidence that maybe they should remain off budget and see where the chips fall.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, we had the Forest Service before the Subcommittee yesterday and that is one of the things we really focused on was management and accountability. You heard that same thing from Mr. Dicks at the joint hearing also.

    Mr. MILLER. That is just my recommendation. I talked to Norm about this, because I think rather than getting into a fight to go on budget or off budget, which is a fight without an end, maybe this one——
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    Mr. REGULA. Accountability is the key.

    Mr. MILLER. Let's look at this over the next three years and see if in fact they are accountable for how they are spending the money.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay.

    Mr. MILLER. That is it for me. Management and accountability. My, how I have mellowed. [Laughter.]


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Okay. Mr. Bereuter.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, am I following Mellow Miller? [Laughter.]
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    Mr. REGULA. A group of students from your district were here earlier. They are with Close Up. They said you were their Congressman.

    Mr. BEREUTER. I will be meeting in a few minutes with them.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for hearing our request. I want to thank you first of all for past assistance.

    Yesterday I heard you talk about your frustrations with the Administration's request related to the Indian Health Service. I am not asking you for anything, although the Administration is asking us to ask for an additional $600,000 in design money for the Winnebago Public Health Indian Service Hospital, where we have worked with you and Mr. Yates for some period of time.

    I have asked Dr. Trujillo to meet with me and explain why it is all of a sudden they need $600,000 when we went to bat and got them what they wanted in the first place. What have they really accomplished with the design money at this point?

    So I am not coming in with their request until I get some answers from them.

    Mr. REGULA. Good.

    Mr. BEREUTER. I also support the Administration's request for the Agro-Forestry Center, as it is, and I have some detail in my testimony about that.
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    Mostly, I want to talk to you about things that relate, directly or indirectly, to Lewis and Clark. You know that I have a long term interest in this subject, going well back before Steven Ambrose wrote his extraordinary book.

    Mr. REGULA. Yes, I read it. It is quite interesting.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Last year in my district, in the Nebraska Arbor Day Center, which you helped fund some years ago, all of the State agencies and some of the Federal agencies, stretching from Missouri to Oregon, met. There is a Lewis and Clark bicentennial council that was formed.

    One of the first places that Lewis and Clark had any major activities is a spot called Council Bluff in my district, where they first met with the Indian tribes. We hope that is one of the bicentennial locations of note. That will be 2003 through 2006.

    I am the author of the bicentennial coin, which the Treasury and Mint want to do in 2003, it will generate a little additional funds.

    Also, I am the author of a resolution which encourages celebrations up and down Missouri and on west to the Columbia River Valley and Basin.

    Near Council Bluff, the first military fort west of the Missouri was established in 1819, or 1820. They had large numbers of deaths the first winter, in particular.

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    Mr. REGULA. I remember reading about that.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Those graves are unmarked, unfortunately, over 160 some graves are unmarked. And they are in a farm field we can locate within a quarter mile or something. But the land owner at this point is not willing to sell, would swap. He will not let us on the property to use some fairly sophisticated equipment now that the Army, Defense Department, and the Smithsonian has.

    I am asking for a quarter million dollars for survey and memorialization planning for that cemetery, which would be added to the State historical park, once we determine where those graves are. It may require us to lease the property from the landowner, so that he does not lose income during the crop year involved in searching for the graves.

    I think it is kind of outrageous that we have 160 to 180 soldiers and officers whose graves are unmarked and unrecognized there. It was at one time the largest military fort in the United States before it was abandoned in 1927.

    Mr. REGULA. He is farming it?

    Mr. BEREUTER. He is farming it.

    Mr. REGULA. So you would have to use some sophisticated equipment to identify graves.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Ground sensing radar apparently has some hope. Many of the soldiers were buried in uniform, and therefore you have some buttons and things of that nature, which help them.
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    I would like to direct your attention, I assume this whole statement can be made a part of the record, and I ask that.

    Mr. REGULA. Oh, yes, without objection.

    Mr. BEREUTER. To the Lewis and Clark bicentennial. The Park Service has requested $399,000 for Lewis and Clark bicentennial activities for the National Park Service. I support that, of course.

    The council made up of these States with which the Department of Army, and the Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service are cooperating, among others, has a fairly ambitious program. I am conveying to you their request for an additional $775,000 to be spent over some three years.

    Mr. REGULA. I see this.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Challenge grants, partnership with the National Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Council, technical assistance and planning for the National Park Service, Lewis and Clark study sites and improvements. So that is the nature of my request for them, States stretching from Oregon to Missouri.

    [The statement of Mr. Bereuter follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."
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    Mr. REGULA. Okay, we do not know what our allocation is at that point. The President's request is $1.1 billion over last year, and we know we are never going to get there.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Chairman, what do you suggest my approach should be, if I may ask it, with Dr. Trujillo and the Indian Health Service coming back to us, saying we need more money now, and we do not have any confidence that they have spent the money well?

    Mr. REGULA. Loretta handles the Indian Health Service.

    Ms. BEAUMONT. Are you talking about the Winnebago Hospital itself?

    Mr. BEREUTER. Yes. Now they are coming back and saying, we need an additional $600,000 for planning and design. We do not understand why they are asking that.

    Ms. BEAUMONT. The tribe I thought had told me a couple of years ago it was $200,000. It is up to $600,000 now?

    Mr. BEREUTER. But they did not request it in their budget.

    Ms. BEAUMONT. No, they did not.

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    Mr. BEREUTER. So I do not think it is incumbent upon the Nebraska delegation and Iowa delegation to really go out and request this money. Not until we see what they are doing with it.

    Ms. BEAUMONT. I think the problem with the budget was that the Administration really short-funded the Indian Health Service earlier on.

    Mr. REGULA. They did.

    Mr. BEREUTER. That is what you were saying to us at 5:00 o'clock yesterday, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Correct. I gave a memo to the members, give Doug one of the memos.

    Mr. BEREUTER. I have it.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, that tells the story.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Is there any possibility that members could sit across the table with you when you have a meeting with the Indian Health Service?

    Mr. REGULA. Absolutely. They have been here, but if you want to set up a meeting with Dr. Trujillo——

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    Mr. BEREUTER. I have asked for one and they are not responding at this point.

    Mr. REGULA. I will follow up. We will arrange a meeting and invite you. How about that?

    Mr. BEREUTER. I would like that.

    Mr. REGULA. Let's do that as soon as we get back, and we will let you know. I would like to talk to him also.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know you will do your best with limited resources. My priority in this is the $250,000, the site investigation and leasing if necessary. By the way, I do not expect this land, the cemetery, probably a quarter square mile will end up in Federal ownership. But the State would buy it with its State historical park foundation funds

    Mr. REGULA. There are going to be a lot of ideas for millennium projects. In fact, the Administration has requested state funding, as well as federal. This might be one project the State would want to consider for a millennium project with state funding.

    Mr. BEREUTER. We will be able to buy it with State or private funds through the foundation. Our problem is, we need the resources that the Federal Government has for searching for the graves.

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    Mr. REGULA. I understand that, and we could be helpful in that respect.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you.

    Mr. REGULA. We will let you know about that meeting.

    Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you very much.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.  




    Mr. REGULA. Okay. Mr. Wolf. Frank, you understand the problems don't you. You are on the other end of the table most of the time. Just more buses and more mass transit, more rail, more of something else.

    Mr. WOLF. More of everything and less of money.

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    This is a very brief statement, so I will read it. But I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify. As you know very well, because your staff was very helpful, the Shenandoah Valley Battlefields National Historic District Commission was authorized in the 104th Congress as part of the Omnibus Parks Bill. The Act encompasses 10 Civil War battlefields, including Stonewall Jackson's 1862 campaign and also Sheridan's 1864 campaign, including Cedar Creek, which was the battle that was won by both sides, one in the morning by the south and the other in the afternoon by the north.

    I request that my whole statement appear in the record.

    In fiscal year 1998, this committee made available $250,000 for the National Park Service's heritage partnership grants account for the Shenandoah Battlefields Commission. The committee also made available technical assistance funds for Department of the Interior personnel support equaling $100,000 in additional assistance.

    Last fall, commission members were appointed. They are up and running. They have had a number of meetings. Next weekend or the weekend after that, they are visiting all of the sites. It was signed, as you know, by Secretary Babbitt.

    Because the committee support work is underway, to continue this work to preserve America's history, I would ask the subcommittee to make available through fiscal year 1999 appropriations of $250,000 for operational expenses and $140,000 in technical assistance. The $43,000 increase would provide funding for personnel support for the full year. The last time, I think, was for roughly about eight months.

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    Your consideration would be appreciated.

    And lastly, it is my understanding that the commission may also submit what they call an early action land acquisition request for properties in imminent danger of irreversible damage, as provided in the law. Should the commission make that request, I would respectfully ask that you give every consideration to it.

    That is it, and I thank you.

    [The statement of Mr. Wolf follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Do you have Manassas in your district?

    Mr. WOLF. Yes, I have Manassas, too.

    Mr. REGULA. Have they taken care of the problem there? Remember back some time ago we added——

    Mr. WOLF. They have not. It is still going on. By the Park Service's own figures, it is a dangerous intersection. In fact, I think they call it highly dangerous.

    The Virginia Department of Transportation has come forward and made some recommendations. The Park Service does not want to cooperate.
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    I have asked Lon Anderson with AAA to mediate the two, because I think AAA is relatively objective, to bring the two sides together. Hopefully, they can resolve it. I worry that next month, two months from now we are going to get a major accident with kids in a car, because you have heavy gravel trucks coming through there from a quarry, which is just a way from there. It is a very dangerous intersection.

    So they have not. I might be back to the committee. Hopefully, this will, if all sides can come together with what I would call a spirit of reconciliation, to try to kind of work it out, hopefully they can. If they cannot, then I would obviously speak to you about it. But I am hopeful.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay.

    Mr. WOLF. Thank you very much.

    Mr. REGULA. What was the other piece we worked on? We bought some land, do you remember? The big purchase, has that been completed?

    Mr. WOLF. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. There was going to be a shopping center.

    Mr. WOLF. Yes, it was going to be called the Williams Tract, and it was going to be a shopping mall.
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    Thank you.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.     

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Deutsch.

    Mr. DEUTSCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Is this Everglades?

    Mr. DEUTSCH. Yes, it is, and I know you visited down there this year, and I appreciate your help. This is my sixth year in Congress, my sixth year in front of the committee. It is a success story which would not be a success story without your support.

    Unfortunately, the reality is, it is a continuing need.

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    Mr. REGULA. We spent three days there, so we are pretty familiar with it. We got the whole story, and I understand it is one of those things that we did something years ago without thinking about population growth. I assume you have part of that.

    Mr. DEUTSCH. Right. I actually pretty much represent all the Everglades, it's south of me, about 80 to 90 percent of the actual area. I don't know where you left on your airboat, but you probably left from my district.

    Mr. REGULA. We left from the Mikusukee reservation, along the Tamiami.

    Mr. DEUTSCH. Right. Actually, that's all my district.

    I think just one thing to emphasize is that this is not just a Federal project. The State dollars are more than 50 percent of the actual dollars involved.

    Mr. REGULA. There are a lot of players actually involved.

    Mr. DEUTSCH. The county does stuff, local government. Through property taxing, we tax ourselves in terms of property tax.

    The one thing I would emphasize, and it's really preaching to the choir, but on the land acquisition side, if we don't do it, the land just gets more expensive.

    Mr. REGULA. I understand. I think we ought to move ahead. I don't know, they have money to do land acquisition that seems to be standing still.
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    Ms. WEATHERLY. Yes, $160 million in arrears.

    Mr. DEUTSCH. They are in the process of trying to spend it as quickly as they can. My understanding is that they are, through the water management district that is actually the entity that is doing the land purchases. The President's budget has a request for $144 million, which directly in terms of Everglades, on specific projects, the best science is saying we really need it.

    Mr. REGULA. That project is going to go. It is just a matter of how it can be done in an orderly fashion. And as I say, I think there is plenty of money out there now for land acquisition, that is not being spent. You might want to talk to some of the people at Interior.

    The STAFF. Mr. Chairman, with regard to the Farm Bill monies, the Interior Department is moving forward as quickly as possible to obligate those dollars.

    Mr. REGULA. So it is moving.

    Mr. DEUTSCH. I think the Farm Bill dollars, that specific tract which is the Talisman Tract, which is a former sugar cane field, that was at $250 million. That has been in protracted negotiation. They do not want to go through a condemnation proceeding.

    I think the $144 million, though, is for additional specific projects that are outlined in the Administration's proposal, actual land that they are saying is worth X amount of dollars.
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    Mr. REGULA. We are going to continue to support this project. The decision whether or not to do it is behind us now. It is just a matter of moving it into completion.

    Mr. DEUTSCH. Anything I can do next time you come down, let me know. I appreciate it. I will take you fishing. Thanks again.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.

    [The statement of Mr. Deutsch follows:]

     "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Ms. Slaughter.

    Ms. SLAUGHTER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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    Nice to see you.

    Mr. REGULA. Nice to see you.

    Ms. SLAUGHTER. You know why I am here, of course.

    Mr. REGULA. I suspect I do.

    Ms. SLAUGHTER. And it is good to be here with a buddy.

    Mr. REGULA. I have to suspend for a minute, I have to testify in front of the Commerce-State Justice on an adjacent project. So our great colleague and member of this committee is going to preside during the next several witnesses.

    I think I have heard the message earlier.

    Ms. SLAUGHTER. Yes, we preach to the converted here.

    Mr. REGULA. So this will be great for Mr. Wamp to hear.

    Ms. SLAUGHTER. Before you go, I want to tell you how much I love that poster there from the Cuyahoga Valley. That's really beautiful.

    Mr. REGULA. It is one of the projects this committee made happen.
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    Ms. SLAUGHTER. I feel better just looking at it.

    Mr. WAMP [assuming chair]. Thank you to the best subcommittee chairman in the House of Representatives, anywhere. You are wonderful.

    Go ahead and preach, Ms. Slaughter.

    Ms. SLAUGHTER. Thank you, Mr. Wamp. As a Kentuckian, you know I can warm up to it.

    But I do appreciate the opportunity to be able to address you this morning on the National Endowment for the Arts and establishment of the Women's Rights Historic Trail in Western New York. In addition, my written testimony expresses support for the National Endowment for the Humanities, the Institute of Museum and Library Services, and the restoration of the Susan B. Anthony House in Rochester.

    Mr. Chairman, I urge the subcommittee to fund the National Endowment at the Administration's request of $136 million. The funding increase would be used to largely support three major projects: Arts Reach, Leadership Initiatives and Partnership Funds.

    The Arts Reach program helps increase direct NEA grants to communities that have not previously had opportunities to benefit from the Federal seed money for their cultural endeavors. The program will help communities develop a cultural plan with input from the Chamber of Commerce, the social service agencies, the police, the Mayor, the local artists and other community leaders.
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    With help from the NEA, the community leaders will be able to use the arts to build stronger communities. And Arts Reach will enable communities to undertake endeavors such as building performance and exhibition spaces, enhancing opportunities in arts education, and developing arts alternatives for youth at risk.

    Leadership initiative funding will contribute to the national initiatives that make the arts a basic part of K–12 education to strengthen arts education research and increase creative opportunities for youth at risk.

    With all the recent studies about the development of the human brain and the PET scans which now allow us to see it happening, we know that arts are a vital part of early childhood development. Stimulation of the brain through the arts contributes to greater academic achievement. For example, the college board has reported that four years of arts studies significantly increases the SAT scores between 50 and 64 points.

    In addition, researchers at the University of California at Irvine found that music training, specifically piano instruction, is far superior to computer instruction in dramatically enhancing children's abstract reasoning skills that are necessary for learning math and science. Leadership initiative grants will help more children to benefit from exposure to and education in the arts.

    The partnership funds will enhance the vital relationships among the Federal, State and local arts organizations, which help to expand the access to the arts throughout the country. Working together, the different levels of government help create strong communities and leverage additional funding from private sources.
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    I am very proud of the NEA's initiatives and believe that the $136 million funding level is essential to carry them out. On Arts Advocacy Day this past March, hundreds of arts advocates from throughout the country gathered in Washington, as well as the Conference of Mayors, to let us know that the arts are important to our constituents.

    A young woman, an actress, Victoria Row, she had a story about the programs that received the grants and the NEA that enabled her to grow as an individual, to overcome tough economic odds, she was a foster child, to develop her skills, enhance her self-esteem and succeed in the arts world. She is using that great talent now to benefit others who need that same kind of help.

    You have all heard me talk about this for years. I think we are getting a lot of help out there now with the Conference of Mayors and now with the new PET scans and what we know about the developing brain.

    I am going to put my complete statement on record, but I just would like to tell you, I think this is terribly important, and it is awful if the United States decides it has no interest in art in this country, when we know that when we expose a child to art, we make a better person, a better student and better in every way.

    So let me give you a couple of examples for that. In my district, there is a little group called Sunshine Two. They have had very few NEA funds, but they are three deaf and three hearing performers that work together. They travel all over the country promoting deaf-hearing interaction and deaf awareness.
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    The performances affect countless individuals in the deaf and hearing communities throughout the Nation. It lets little deaf children know they are not alone.

    In Abilene, Texas, the cultural affairs council developed a downtown cultural district, facilitated the renovation of downtown cultural facilities, persuaded several area museums to move into the district. With the help of a grant from the NEA, the council was able to breathe economic life into the district by supporting festivals, exhibitions and performances which brought in over 42,000 visitors.

    The same thing is happening in Providence, Rhode Island, in Peekskill, New York, dying areas were really brought back to life by arts programs. As a matter of fact, one of the most interesting things to me was with the director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, told us that he had sold more tickets to his place of business than the New York Mets, Nets, Jets and Yankees combined. I thought that was really quite telling.

    Another NEA grantee, Arts of Albuquerque, New Mexico, is promoting contemporary art and New Mexican arts. And George, I know in Washington State that arts programs have done an awful lot of good. In fact, one of your Senators is one of the best supporters we have, Mr. Gorton.

    So I again will stand up anywhere, any time, and preach the benefit of the arts to the students of the United States. Everybody has benefitted from it. But also, this year is a very important date for us. This is the 150th anniversary of a convention in Seneca Falls, New York, where a group of women gathered up the courage, remember, in 1848, they didn't even own the clothes on their back, they owned no property, no anything. They got together in this little town called Seneca Falls and decided they would like to do something called voting.
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    It took them 70 years to get it, but nonetheless, and actually, if you recall, it was someone from Tennessee who gave us the last vote, to allow that vote. We thank you for that.

    But in any case, this year we want to really celebrate what these American women, along with Frederick Douglass, one of the great American heroes, who was the only gentleman present to speak. So women from all over the country and all over the world are going to be converging this year on western New York.

    We have asked for not much money, but just a study of the women's rights historical park, that eventually would go from Buffalo to Boston. At this point, because of the celebration, we would like to have enough money to go from Seneca Falls, New York, to Auburn, New York, to take in all those historic sites, including the house of Harriet Tubman, who was very important here, too.

    So that's my plea this morning. And I appreciate extremely your consideration and your kindness to me and the good work you have done in the past. I look forward to more in the future.

    [The statement of Ms. Slaughter follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. WAMP. Ms. Slaughter, you are an effective advocate for both the National Endowment for the Arts and for the women's rights historical trail. We thank you very much for your testimony. Your full testimony will be submitted for the record.
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    Ms. SLAUGHTER. Thank you.

    Mr. WAMP. And I just want to know before you leave if you still get to claim the Kentucky Wildcats.

    Ms. SLAUGHTER. It took me this whole tournament to understand it. I watched them play for years, I graduated there, that's my school. But what you have to do is have a bench that is so deep and so good, and the first half you just run everybody to death and let them run up their scores and play their little game.

    Then in the last 10, 15 minutes, you have all these people, you can run them in for 30 seconds and in and out and just clean up the court. Was it not remarkable? Have you ever seen anything like it?

    Mr. WAMP. Well, yes, we have a women's basketball team——


    Ms. SLAUGHTER. But I was there, 100 years ago, the first time I saw Kentucky lose a basketball game, I thought it was against the law. [Laughter.]

    Mr. WAMP. Thank you, Ms. Slaughter.

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Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. WAMP. Representative Furse, you are next. Thank you for coming.

    Ms. FURSE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I am not going to read my whole statement, I would like to have it in the record.

    What I am here to do is ask for a $3 million appropriation from the Land and Water Conservation Fund. This will go to complete, almost complete, the Tualatin National Wildlife Refuge in Washington County. This is an interesting little refuge, because it really started with the city, which had had some devastating floods along the river, deciding that perhaps a great thing to do would be to expand a wildlife refuge along the river.

    Now, the interesting thing is, because of the floods, we now have a lot of willing sellers. They would like to sell this farm land and allow it to be part of the refuge. We have already about 1,000 acres that are in the refuge.
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    It is one of the most important stops for mostly ducks and geese on the flyway. We estimate that there are at least 30 species and we think maybe even some of the endangered Alaska geese are on that flyway.

    It is also an opportunity for agencies to come together. We have a lot of groups coming together on this refuge, because Oregon, despite its very good land use laws, is really under such a population pressure that the suburbs are moving into those farm areas. This refuge is really necessary to one, for water control, it is a flood control area, and also for this wildlife refuge.

    It is sort of a win-win things, because we have these private-public partnerships. We have these people who would like to sell this land, which is now pretty well unfarmable, because of the huge floods we had in 1996. So I would really hope that we could get the money now, because we have the opportunity to buy the land now. And we have this pressure growing and growing, as wetlands are disappearing.

    This would allow us to actually expand the wetland, but do it in a way that the public and private interests are met. So it is just a fabulous opportunity and I would hope you would help us acquire that land.

    [The statement of Ms. Furse follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

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    Mr. WAMP. Thank you, Ms. Furse, for your advocacy in this matter. I might state, too, that a constituent of yours is my first cousin, Dr. Greg Skipper.

    Ms. FURSE. I'm glad your family had the sense to send a member to my district. Thank you.

    Mr. WAMP. He has always been kind of a rebel. [Laughter.]

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I want the record to reflect what a good advocate Congresswoman Furse has been, not only for environmental issues, but for the cause of diabetes. We do a certain amount of work here, Elizabeth, on diabetes treatment through the Bureau of Indian Affairs and also dental Program through the Indian Health Service.

    I want this subcommittee to appreciate your advocacy and also your expertise and your judgment on these issues. I certainly, will pay great attention to your comments and your testimony before the committee.

    Ms. FURSE. I really appreciate that. Of course, you are the champion for diabetes and I am grateful to work with you on that issue, as I know are many others.

    Mr. NETHERCUTT. Thank you.

    Mr. WAMP. Thank you, Ms. Furse.      

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.
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    Mr. WAMP. John Peterson from Pennsylvania, if we could have your testimony and then we will go vote. I think that will work out very well.

    Mr. PETERSON. I would like to thank the committee for the chance to share with them. I will submit my testimony here for the record, and quickly review the projects.

    This is about a couple of projects on the Allegheny National Forest. The Allegheny National Forest is a 530 acre forest in Pennsylvania. It is the finest forest probably in America as far as hardwoods are concerned. If you buy a high quality piece of cherry, there is a 50 percent chance it came from the Allegheny National Forest. It is the most mature hardwood forest in America, and the most productive and cost effective forest in America.

    But we have a couple of project needs there. It is also one of the most visited forests in the east. We have the first project at Willow Bay, it is phase five of that project. It includes a parking lot for 50 cars, a pavilion, a picnic area and reconstruction of an existing picnic area for a small amount of $190,000. That is a part of the President's requested budget.
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    The second project that is even more vital to the forest is a new district office at Marionville, allowing them to consolidate their offices. They have 25 employees there, they are working out of two small office buildings, a trailer and two warehouses in different locations.

    This project would save $20 million over a period of time so it would be cost effective to the forest to have this new facility. We ask for the allocation of $1.75 million for this project, and hope that you can include it in this year's budget. It has been requested for 10 years, so I think after 10 years, it is about time to do it, because it will be cost effective for the forest.

    One final problem before we go to vote, the third issue I would like to share with you is PILT funding. I submitted a letter to the committee last week, where Congressman Hanson and I authored and 57 members signed, so we have 59 members requesting full funding of PILT. Just to make a short argument for that, this year's authorization will be $255.5 million. Last year's funding was $120 million.

    I want to say this as clearly as I can say it. If this was an urban or suburban program, it would be fully funded, it would not be half funded. I think it is time for this Congress to make sure that rural America gets this token of payment back for all of the land that is taken out of production, all the land that is set aside for Americans to enjoy.

    In Pennsylvania, one of the last acts that I helped to get passed was we doubled our payment in lieu of taxes from 60 cents an acre to $1.20 an acre. If we paid rural America an appropriate factor, if we paid them what they pay them in Pennsylvania, we would have an $840 million appropriation, not $255 million, with $1.20 an acre. We are giving pennies per acre back currently.
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    It just seems to me it is an outrage for rural America that we do not have full funding of PILT. I do not think it is enough to begin with, for the cost of taking all that land out of production and out of our economic base.

    But I respectfully request this committee to look at full funding of PILT this year and hereafter, because it is just fairness to rural America. And I thank the committee for the chance to share my views.

    [The statement of Mr. Peterson follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. WAMP. Thank you, Mr. Peterson, for summarizing your testimony and for submitting your full testimony for the record. You are an effective advocate, we appreciate that.

    The committee will stand in recess for approximately 10 minutes, and Ms. DeLauro of Connecticut will be the first one up if she is present.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.

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    Mr. WAMP. The committee will come to order once again. We have four members that will testify before the lunch break. Mr. Horn has joined us from California. We jumped around a little bit, but we will come back to Mr. Horn and then Ms. DeLauro.

    So Mr. Horn, thank you for appearing before the subcommittee today.

    Mr. HORN. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Would you like me to say a few words on the glories of the arts? Or are you already convinced. I never testify if you have the votes.

    Mr. WAMP. You have five minutes to say whatever is on your mind.

    Mr. HORN. Well, I want to say, Sandra Gibson of Long Beach, California, is one of the fine examples of arts administration in our community. She heads the Public Corporation of the Arts, of which my wife has been a former chairman, and one of the founders. So we have been very tied into the arts in our community, and we are delighted that they all they do. That is because the city of Long Beach has been very supportive with the room tax, they do not want to admit it, but that is where they get the money, and it goes to the arts.

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    And the arts, I happen to have believed in since I was a five year old and saw a WPA symphony come to Holister, California, population 3,500. I grew up in the area that in California looked something like Tennessee, beautiful trees, rivers, rapids and all that, small communities. I want to see small communities in the 1990s and the 21st century have the benefit of what I had as a kid in the Depression.

    So I feel very strongly that we need to keep a Federal commitment to the arts. We all know the obvious, they enrich us culturally. Well, the studies show now, and my colleague, co-chairman of the Arts Caucus, Louise Slaughter, is quite an expert on the studies that have shown that the people who do best on college tests and what-not are those that have been involved with the arts. The arts obviously enrich us economically, and that is why the city of Long Beach has a room tax which in essence goes to a lot of the arts.

    Then the block grants, we think, are a little bit of a poor alternative. But there is no question we should be encouraging. The Assembly of State Arts Agencies I think opposes block grants. But we should be encouraging the States to also have arts commissions. New York has a marvelous one. They have upped the money over the years for the New York one. Governor Wilson has helped on the California State Arts Commission.

    I think we need this not just in Federal money, we need activity all over the country. But the Federal money, small that it is, is crucial to set an example. Now, they might have made five mistakes since 1965, but if we held every executive agency that we would get rid of them with five mistakes, this town would be in greenery and we would have goats on the mall.

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    So I would add that what we are talking about, the arts, is also what enriches us personally and makes us better people. Anybody that does not cry when they hear Beethoven's Ninth Symphony and we still all stand up when that is played, that is the kind of thing we get from the arts, compassion, aesthetics, beauty. All of which I am sure the gentleman from Tennessee favors, or I would not have come here. [Laughter.]

    Therefore I am going to yield back three minutes to you.

    [The statement of Mr. Horn follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. WAMP. Mr. Horn, you were preceded by Ms. Slaughter, and she did an excellent job of advocating for the arts. We are very thankful. We do appreciate all of the local arts directors from all around the country, in Tennessee and California and New York and other places. You have served your purpose very well, Mr. Horn, and we appreciate your testimony today. Your full testimony will be inserted into the record.

    Thank you very much.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.

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    Mr. WAMP. Our next witness is the Honorable Rosa DeLauro from Connecticut. Ms. DeLauro, it will be you and then Mr. Shays and then Mr. Farr. Are you going to do this together? Good. The Shays-DeLauro team. DeLauro-Shays, excuse me.

    Ms. DELAURO. Thank you very, very much, Mr. Wamp. We are really delighted to be here today and have you listen to us, and I join my colleague, Mr. Shays. We are seeking funds for the purchase of the remaining critical habitat of the Great Meadow Salt Marsh as part of the Stewart McKinney National Wildlife Refuge. We have been here in the past. This would help to preserve, as well as what we want to do is try to preserve Ram Island in the Long Island Sound. That is an important part of overall migratory flyway.

    Last year we requested $3.6 million as an appropriation to purchase the remaining 30 acres of the Great Meadows Refuge. The committee generously granted us $1.1 million in Land and Water Conservation Funds, which is being used to buy 12 of the remaining 30 acres. We are requesting the remaining $2.5 million, which will maximize the effectiveness of the already $8.9 million of Federal funds invested in this purchase.

    With these funds, the remaining tidal wetlands that make up the 444 acre Great Meadows Salt March can be purchased, completing the purchases. The Great Meadows purchases have enabled the Stratford, Connecticut Development Company to determine what land is ecologically less valuable, allowing it to move forward with planned development after more than four decades. So in terms of the economic development of the area, it is helpful.
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    Great Meadows is critical to the regional economy. It protects the regional water supply as well as coastal wetlands. The marsh provides a premier habitat for endangered and threatened species.

    With the completed purchase of Great Meadows and its mixture of habitats, the McKinney Refuge will be of sufficient size and ecological variety and complexity to become a valuable preserve for generations to come.

    This has truly been a public-private partnership success story in our State, with State and local efforts, as well as the Federal Government participating and trying to complete the purchase of the Great Meadows Marsh.

    In addition, we wish to bring to your attention an opportunity this year for the Fish and Wildlife Service to protect Ram Island, which is off the coast of Stonington, Connecticut, in the eastern Long Island Sound. This island provides rookeries for colonial wading birds, as well as it is a shoreline habitat for a number of species of birds, including the piping plover, which have nested on Ram Island in the past.

    It is a 16.3 acre island. It is lightly developed. This level of development which is currently there is not threatening to the bird population. But if there is increased development on Ram Island, then it would be the loss of this habitat. That is why we are trying to protect the island from further development, and try to accomplish that in the near future.

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    So including Ram Island into the refuge will also allow for the island to be managed in order to increase quality of the habitat for the species that are already there. The island is valued at approximately $1.5 million. A non-profit conservation organization has signed an option that would enable this island to be part of the McKinney refuge.

    So we are seeking this level of funding in order to acquire this island and to reinforce the habitat of the piping plover.

    We thank you for allowing us to come before you this morning. You have been generous to us in the past in helping us realize this goal. And we look for your favorable consideration.

    [The statement of Ms. DeLauro:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. WAMP. Thank you, Ms. DeLauro, a distinguished member of the appropriations committee herself. Mr. Shays.

    Mr. SHAYS. Thank you, Mr. Wamp.

    I have to tell you, this is probably one of the more important issues for our area. And it is important for the country as well to recognize that estuaries, where salt and fresh water mix, is where most origination of fin fish and shellfish come. That's where you get most of your fin fish and shellfish. It is obviously a major commercial source, as well as recreational area.
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    But we have some estimates, 50 million people who impact Long Island Sound. And we impact it not in a positive way.

    We can spend lots more money for Government programs, or we can do what nature does so well, it purifies the water with the wetlands that it has. But we have lost 90 plus percent of our wetlands.

    This is a remaining area that helps purify the water of Long Island Sound, helps deal with the toxin problems, with the whole problem of the loss of oxygen, the nutrigens that get into the Long Island Sound, it filters that out as well.

    We are here first to express our gratitude that we have almost completed our task, over 400 acres, and we have 18 remaining acres for $2.5 million. We hope we can complete that and complete the McKinney Wildlife Refuge in that area, named after my predecessor. And that is our first priority, without any hesitation.

    Second priority, we want it to show up on your radar screen, it that there are 16 acres, Ram Island, that can be purchased for $1.5 million. I am amazed that a private developer has not seized the opportunity to outbid that price. Sixteen acres in Long Island Sound, an island.

    But they have not yet, and we would like to get it before the price becomes $5 million or $10 million, and we come back to you and say how important it is to get this island.
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    So we thank you very much for the opportunity to be here, and appreciate the fact that this committee has made possible an effort to save Long Island Sound. We are very grateful to this committee.

    Mr. WAMP. This committee will continue to be sensitive to the needs and do our very best to meet the needs you have brought before us today. Your full statement will be submitted permanently.

    I want to make note of the fact that with Representative Horn and then DeLauro, Shays, Farr and Wamp all in the same room, you might misinterpret this to be a bipartisan finance reform meeting. [Laughter.]

     But this is the Interior subcommittee hearing. We thank you for your testimony.

    Ms. DELAURO. Thank you so much.

    [The statement of Mr. Shays:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.

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    Mr. WAMP. Our last witness this morning will be the Honorable Sam Farr from California. Thank you, Mr. Farr, who is a well-known campaign finance reform advocate.

    Mr. FARR. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your support.

    I was just sitting here realizing that this committee probably had more to do with saving America than any other committee in Congress. It is very interesting that Ansel Adams is displayed over here, for two reasons. One, Ansel Adams, when he was a young photographer, photographed Kings Canyon, and brought his photographs to Congress at a time when people did not travel to places like that, did not have television. He just showed his photographs to then-members of this committee. And based on those photographs, Kings Canyon National Park exists.

    He is now being displayed at the Smithsonian Museum of Modern Art. And I went and looked at that exhibit. A curator told me that that exhibit has drawn more visitors to the museum than any other exhibit they have ever had in the history of the museum and in the history of Washington for that museum.

    What is interesting is that people who are drawn to that exhibit, some of them have never before been in a museum. So here we are in 1998, when everybody is wondering whether these issues on the environment are of interest. I think the political statement that people are making here in Washington about going to Ansel Adams' exhibit is probably a tribute to why we need a very strong stewardship. I am here to talk about a couple of things.
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    Probably one of the most threatened areas, not known threatened, in the United States is the Big Sur Coast. Big Sur runs from the Monterey Peninsula down to Hearst Castle. It is about 70 miles of California coastline. All of it except for a very small portion of it is in private ownership. The small portion that is not in private ownership is in U.S. Forest Service. This is the only national forest in the lower 48 States that touches an ocean.

    What this committee has been doing is every year we have been putting a little bit of money, $1 million, $2 million, into a fund for the Forest Service to buy from willing sellers. They have a list of about 15 willing sellers who want to sell inholdings and property along the cost to the Forest Service, and I am back to ask for that.

    I am asking it from a different standpoint. Eventually, I would really like us to make a commitment. More people will see the Big Sur Coast, this most dramatic meeting of land and water, mountains 6,000 feet high going right down into the ocean, and there is a public highway right along it, that is in the ocean right now with the El Nino storms. But when we consider the Everglades, we consider the old growth redwoods, more people are going to be seeing the Big Sur Coast, it will be more public benefit to money spent in this acquisition than any of the acquisitions that are high profile that this committee deals with.

    So I am pleading with you to put $2 million at a minimum into, again, the land acquisition for the U.S. Forest Service.

    I come to you with a little bit of a carrot. Because since last year, just two weeks ago, the Packard Foundation indicated they will match, for every dollar we put in, they will match up to 50 percent with Packard Foundation money. They have set aside $175 million over the next five years for land acquisition, with public match money.
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    So that is something that this little amount of money will leverage a lot more by.

    The second issue I want to come to you with, and I again, sitting here, appreciate the fact that you have the Akron Art Museum behind you, and the Georgia O'Keefe and the Performing Arts Center, Kennedy Performing Arts Center, and over here a photograph from Ottawa, when we talk about the arts, what we are talking about is this room. Everything that is depicted in this room could not have been done without the arts.

    I am co-chair, with Mark Foley, of the Tourism Caucus. The reason I am really involved in tourism is that I think if we want to sell America to people in this country, to people abroad, the way you sell it is you bring them here. They look at it, they see it, they look at the way we manage things, which gets down into local jurisdictions of how you do planning, how you do park commissions, what our culture is.

    When you think about it, the arts are the most accurate depiction of America's diversity. It is the history of our country that is recorded by the arts, it is paintings and photography. It is depicted by our music, our dancing, our poetry, our theater, our literature and our architecture.

    And why in this debate here in Congress, we get so anti-NEA just boggles my mind. The most impressive thing I saw last year was where American corporations came out and said they wanted support for the NEA. I went to IBM in San Jose and said, why are you so interested in National Endowment for the Arts? They said, Sam, we cannot exist without creative people. Creative people are not just going to always come out of the science side of education.
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    So the talent that drives the piano, the fingers that operate the piano, certainly can operate a computer. And if you think of one of the most successful companies in America, it's called Silicon Graphics. Silicon is the technology, Graphics is the arts.

    So if America is going to stay competitive in a global world, we have to invest in the engine of creativity, which I believe is the arts. And this money is not money that ends up just in big symphonies and things like that. We have K–6 classes in our local elementary schools in Santa Cruz that have a professional artist in every single school. They get about $80,000 through the National Endowment and through State grants. The rest they raise, the smallest county in California. It only has 350,000 population and the land size is the smallest.

    So here is a community who really believes in it and puts professional artists in the schools, and the classroom teachers are saying, this is incredible, we are reaching kids we never reached before. Because we could not reach them through traditional methods. But we reach them in math through dance, we reach them in music, we turn kids on and teachers, classroom teachers are really excited about having this.

    So I am a big supporter or the arts, because I think it is really our best economics and creativity, and America has to remain smarter and quicker and faster and more creative than any other country to stay competitive.

    Lastly, the issue I bring before you is two Fish and Wildlife Service requests. One is for the Southern Sea Otter Research, which is $250,000. The State of California has assessed the oil tanker industry fee, and part of that fee goes to creating a rehab center for marine-damaged mammals. So if we ever have an oil spill, we will have the technology. It has just been put together.
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    But what we don't have, and it was put in the sea otter range, the sea otter is an interesting species. Because this is a species where I think we ought to be talking more about what this kind of money does. The sea otter was presumed to be extinct. In 1947, the first one was sighted. Since 1947, we have brought the sea otter population up to a sustainable level.

    But since 1995, it has started to decline again, and we do not really know why. So what this money does, it is being earmarked to be in the, I'm asking for Section 6 account of the Endangered Species Act, a cooperative Federal-State program, and earmark it for the State of California's Office of Oil Spill Prevention and Response. Because that is the area that they are studying how you can make sure the sea otter decreases can be addressed.

    Frankly, the payoff for the Nation is that there is no other center like this. This is the only place they do this kind of work. If we can learn how to deal with marine mammal decline there, we can apply that anywhere.

    Lastly, the Committee on Water Resources, the Policy Committee, it is interesting, less than you would think, really not much controversy, bipartisan support, is for the appropriation of money for the Rhinoceros and Tiger Conservation Fund. Congress has authorized $10 million per year in that fund, but we have never appropriated more than $400,000.

    We have 70 pending conservation proposals that demand far-out paces of funds available. Currently what is happening is decisions have to be made, because there is limited money for the sort of on the ground protection issues, like boots and radios for rangers, versus what is really effective, is public education, to show why you should not buy products that are made from these species, like rhino daggers and traditional Asian medicines.
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    So we are requesting that the funding for the program be increased to $1 million per year to address the conservation yields, while reducing the demand through education programs. As I said, the authorizers were unanimous on this in committee. I think we just passed the bill off the Floor last Monday without any debate at all. It was a lovefest.

    So hopefully you can find some resources in here to—yes, everybody loves rhinos and tigers—but you can find some funds to appropriate in that area.

    I thank you for your concerns and leadership, and I invite this committee out any time. I am using my politics in Congress to try to develop a place where we really have sustainable development. Our agriculture is $2.2 billion, we totally are land dependent. Our ocean economy brings the tourists.

    This is an area where I think the rubber hits the road. If we can begin to learn how to manage this land appropriately, and develop those assets that we have into learning laboratories, whether it be parks or forests or whatever, then we really can have a sustainable economy for America, not an economy that is based on who has the advantage, who can extract the most. It has to be balanced, it has to be managed well, and you hold the keys to doing that.

    I would love to work with you during the years, as I know your leadership is going to grow and your personal responsibilities are going to grow here. I look forward to having you some time visit my district.

    [The statement of Mr. Farr follows:]
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    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. WAMP. Thank you, Mr. Farr.

    We see very much bipartisan support for the entire concept of preservation, sustainability, moving the next generation forward. This subcommittee has a great reputation for supporting these programs.

    I, too, am grateful for your work. You covered four areas in eight minutes extremely well. And any other testimony that you need to submit for the record will certainly be accepted.

    We thank you very much for your testimony, and the committee will stand in recess until 1:30. Thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.



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    Mr. REGULA. The committee will come to order.

    Mr. John. Mr. John, I do not know every new member.

    Mr. JOHN. I'm a brand new member, from the Seventh District of Louisiana. I knew Jimmy Hays.

    Mr. REGULA. Oh, I know Jimmy very well.

    Okay, well, go ahead, we will put your statement in the record. You tell us briefly what you need.

    Mr. JOHN. Thank you very much for letting me come in a little early.

    My request is seeking a $9 million addition to the president's request to fully fund the National Wildlife Refuge Fund. A little bit of history behind that whole fund, Mr. Chairman. Of course, I appreciate what you have to do and all the members that are coming in front of you, trying to balance a lot of things here. But one of the requests, and the reason I am here today at the request of local government in my district, but also the local governments across the Nation, as it relates the Revenue Sharing Fund.

    I am not promoting a new program, it is basically an issue of fairness. A little bit of background behind that program, in fact, with all the Federal lands, especially the lands of the Fish and Wildlife Service, they are exempt from State and Federal taxes, as you are aware.
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    Mr. REGULA. Yes. You get PILT.

    Mr. JOHN. That is absolutely correct. What we are trying to do is go back to the intent of Congress in 1935 that set this up to try to offset some of the losses of the sales taxes. It has prompted me to come here at the request of Cameron Parish, which is a small, rural parish in South Louisiana. About one-third of it is Fish and Wildlife land.

    I have met with the sheriff, who is obviously the ex officio tax collector of all of the dollars there. Over the past history of this fund, only about 75 cents of every dollar has been appropriated. It comes out, when you look at the Administration's Budget for fiscal year 1999, it comes out about $9 million short. That's million with an M, $9 million short to fully fund that program. Obviously, those monies go to local law enforcement, recreation, school board.

    To the tune of in Cameron Parish, that is only about $76,000. But that is lot of money for a parish a residency of only about 9,000 people. I just wanted to bring that to your attention to ask when you are considering all the funding requests that you have that you have, that it is relatively a small amount of money in a $1.6 trillion. It means a lot to all the counties and parishes across the Nation.

    [The statement of Mr. John follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

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    Mr. REGULA. We have pretty much eliminated any of the ''revenue sharing'' type of things, because we have so many needs for parks and forests, etc. that are Federal responsibilities. I do not know, is there any amount in the President's budget for this?

    Mr. JOHN. Yes, he is putting in $10 million, which is short by about $9 million. Because another part, the revenues from this fund comes from the fees and the tax on the land. But it is going to fall about $9 million short of fully funding the whole program.

    Mr. REGULA. Would this be a new program, or an increase?

    Mr. JOHN. It is not a new program. It is a fund that was set up a long time ago, but it has never been fully funded. And the local governments are the ones that are taking it really. I come from local government, I understand revenue sharing.

    But this is, as Fish and Wildlife Service, an entitlement land type of situation. I felt that it was incumbent upon me, as I met with them, to try to bring it to your attention. It is a small amount of money, but it means so much to a lot of the local governments from around the country.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay. We do not know yet what we are going to have in the way of an allocation. But we will see what we can do.

    What did we do on this last year, do you remember?

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    Mr. JOHN. We did $10,779,000.

    Mr. REGULA. We must have had another persuasive witness.

    Mr. JOHN. Again, it is not a new program, it is just a commitment, I think, from Congress to try to get it out.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, they are getting it now.

    Mr. JOHN. They are getting about 72 percent, well, actually it is going to be 70 percent in this fiscal year, of the fully funded formula.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thanks for coming.

    Mr. JOHN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it.

    Mr. REGULA. They tell me the sheriff is the real key person in Louisiana.

    Mr. JOHN. He is it, my man, so no savoir is the sheriff down there. Again, this is just not a local matter for Louisiana. It affects a lot of the midwestern States, any Fish and Wildlife Service lands.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.

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Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Ms. Hooley from Oregon regarding Opal Creek Wilderness.

    Ms. HOOLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will take all the money you want to give me for Opal Creek. Thank you very much.

    Mr. REGULA. Strange, I have not heard that all morning.

    Ms. HOOLEY. I bet you haven't. [Laughter.]

    I come from a, probably everyone describes their district as the most beautiful, but I really do have a gorgeous district with a lot of forests, a lot of trees in Oregon. Because of the change in the timber harvesting policy, some of my communities——

    Mr. REGULA. Are you on the coast?
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    Ms. HOOLEY. I am on the coast, in the valley and on the mountains. So I cover——

    Mr. REGULA. South or north?

    Ms. HOOLEY. I cover the middle part of Oregon. I have the State capital and then I go up to the Cascades and coastal range.

    Mr. REGULA. What is your capital?

    Ms. HOOLEY. Salem, Oregon. So I have the Willamette Valley, the mid-part of the State of Oregon and the western part of the State.

    Mr. REGULA. Is Willamette fruit?

    Ms. HOOLEY. Yes. And Willamette Vineyards.

    Mr. REGULA. And Paul and David.

    Ms. HOOLEY. Paul and David are south.

    Mr. REGULA. Opal Creek is a wilderness area?

    Ms. HOOLEY. It is a wilderness area that Senator Hatfield spent a lot of time working on, and now we are trying to finish buying the rest of the property.
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    Mr. REGULA. So your request is for land acquisition money?

    Ms. HOOLEY. Land acquisition money for Opal Creek, and then I have a few others. Are you ready for them?

    Mr. REGULA. Well, one at a time.

    Ms. HOOLEY. Okay. And by the way, Opal Creek protects a watershed, so it is very important, and a process was started to protect the area.

    Mr. REGULA. I am curious, do people use the wilderness, do they go into it, do they hike in it? I always wonder whether these wildernesses do not shut out a lot of people with the wilderness designation.

    Ms. HOOLEY. Well, it depends on where it is and how hard it is to get there, how accessible it is. Some of the forests that have never been cut are very, very dark, you really can't get into them. But people do use wilderness area a lot for hiking, walking and so forth. But again, it just depends.

    One of the things that has happened, obviously, with much less tree cutting happening in Oregon, we have some communities that have some real problems. One of the first requests I am asking, after Opal Creek, is for a jobs in the woods program. This is to help retrain people, give them training experiences, and in that process, they also work on the woods, so they help restore the forest lands, they work on riparian areas and try to bring the forest health back, as well as wildlife habitat and other management objectives.
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    We are respectfully requesting $10 million from BLM. This is a joint project with BLM and the U.S. Forest Service. It has been in the budget before. It has been terribly successful, and we are asking for $10 million again this year.

    Then next, I am asking for $14.8 million for the Pacific Northwest Assistance Program, which is the same level it was last year. Again, this is really to help those communities that have been hit very hard and need to have some economic development.

    Mr. REGULA. This is part of the program the President had when he went to the northwest.

    Ms. HOOLEY. Yes, it is. And we have been very successful in this program, and it just needs to continue doing what it has been doing.

    The other thing, not only are my timber dependent communities sorely hit, so are some of my farmers. They are hit by something very different, and that is geese.

    Mr. REGULA. Canada geese?

    Ms. HOOLEY. Yes, and the dusky goose, which is listed on the Endangered Species Act. What we have had is just an enormous increase in the number of geese. It is called goose degradation. They come in and they just wipe out a field.

    So we have been working with both the State of Oregon and Washington, with the State Fish and Wildlife and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
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    Mr. REGULA. What is your solution, because I have about 300 myself? I live on a farm.

    Ms. HOOLEY. You do? Well, we have——

    Mr. REGULA. Yes, I have a five acre lake, and sometimes all I can see are geese.

    Ms. HOOLEY. What I am going to ask money for, $579 million, to work with not only the Federal Government, but two state governments to try and figure out what in fact we do with this problem.

    Mr. REGULA. I have talked to wildlife people. It is tough. Ohio is expanding their hunting season, and that is a solution which has been some help. It is almost open season on the Canada. There are two kinds of Canada geese, some are resident and drive the golf course and the allotment folks crazy, and there are those that migrate. So you have the residents that come and stay.

    Ms. HOOLEY. I have domestics and I have migrating. The increase has been incredible.

    Mr. REGULA. That seems to be almost a nationwide problem.

    Ms. HOOLEY. It is at the point where literally, they will come and sit on top of the cannons that are used to scare them away. They are very smart.
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    Mr. REGULA. For the record, the request is $579,000.

    Ms. HOOLEY. Excuse me, a little number wrong there. Yes, $579,000. Thank you very much.

    Mr. REGULA. You were just talking about the number of geese. [Laughter.]

    That would be, if we could find a solution, it would be beneficial to many parts of the country.

    Ms. HOOLEY. It is not unique to Oregon, trust me.

    Mr. REGULA. Iowa has a lot of problems with it. The only thing they have come up with is extending the hunting season.

    Ms. HOOLEY. I could give you the suggestion my chief of staff's daughter had for it, which was—part of the problem is, even in hunting season, they have a terrible time distinguishing one type of goose from another.

    The other program is, I am requesting $4 million to create wildlife refuges on the Oregon coast. We have had groups that put a program together, they worked with all levels of government, it is some of the most important coastal wetlands that we have.

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    They also have very high value for the salmon migration in the wintering waterfowl and shorebirds. So we are trying to put refuges together, and that is $4 million.

    Then finally, the State map is a project sponsored by the U.S. Geological Survey. It has been extraordinarily helpful in providing information to both the State and the Federal agencies in a number of ways. I am requesting $7.2 million, which is matching funds, not only for the State, but for the university.

    These funds have been used to help define the geology that controls ground water, and they help address our critical water supply, particularly in the rapidly growing areas.

    Mr. REGULA. I assume USGS is giving you some help already?

    Ms. HOOLEY. Yes. And this is, again, this is money to help match the State and the university. It is a partnership program that has been terribly successful in dealing with our water.

    [The statement of Ms. Hooley follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. It is an existing partnership with USGS and your State university?

    Ms. HOOLEY. Right, and the university system. We started on recovery plans for some of the larger areas where we had huge burns in our timber land, trying to figure out what to do with the water. So thank you very much for your time.
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    Mr. REGULA. Thank you for coming.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Hayworth. Do you have a geese problem or are you here to discuss Indian programs?

    Mr. HAYWORTH. Neither, actually. They are challenges and opportunities, never problems, Mr. Chairman. I will never characterize any of my constituents as offering anything other than challenges and opportunities. Especially mindful of the record and this august gathering.

    Mr. Chairman, of course I have a complete statement.

    Mr. REGULA. It will be a part of the record.

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    Mr. HAYWORTH. I will offer a much more condensed statement for you now, and I just want to thank you for letting me come, meet you across the table here and testify about a project that is especially important to the people of the Sixth Congressional District of Arizona. That would be the purchase of the Bar T Bar Ranch through the Land and Water Conservation Fund.

    Let's take some time and discuss some of the dynamic features of the Bar T Bar. I come complete with photographs, Mr. Chairman, works of nature.

    Mr. REGULA. Is the Bar T, a wholly new acquisition?

    Mr. HAYWORTH. This would be a new acquisition.

    Mr. REGULA. It would be added to Forest Service?

    Mr. HAYWORTH. Yes. This is a dynamic area. It's up north in Coconino County, it has great water. If you will take a look at this picture right there, that's Lake Tremain in the photo with the long eastward stretching arm. It is the largest privately owned lake in the southwest.

    Then the other two photographs, Mr. Chairman, you have 1,543 acres of irrigated pasture, part of which will be restored as marshlands to benefit waterfowl, fish and other wildlife species. You can see those really in the photograph.

    Mr. REGULA. Is any of this Forest Service land?
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    Mr. HAYWORTH. No, it all abuts Forest Service land. It is all up against it.

    Mr. REGULA. How big is the ranch, how many acres?

    Mr. HAYWORTH. Approximately 7,000 acres, Mr. Chairman. It is a great big chunk of land that a lot of people want to see protected.

    If you take a look at the pictures, we also have about 4,500 acres of uplands containing valuable habitat for elk, pronghorn, antelope and other game species, and 7,000 acre fee of water storage rights, which can be utilized to promote waterfowl, fisheries and wildlife conservation and enhancement.

    Mr. Chairman, I would also like to submit for the record copies of seven editorials from Arizona's largest newspapers supporting the acquisition of the Bar T Bar, including three editorials that were published in February. As those editorials point out, there is very strong public support for this action.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me ask you at this point, if we put in a condition that whatever we appropriate would be matched by State, private, or local, funding would you be able to find the matching funds?

    Mr. HAYWORTH. We are working right now in terms of, we've got partnership funds pledged, and perhaps some formula could work.
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    Mr. REGULA. We are trying to leverage, because we have a limited number of dollars.

    Mr. HAYWORTH. Certainly. I understand. But I would ask of the record today, Mr. Chairman, you consider increasing the Administration's request for the LWCF funding of Bar T Bar for fiscal year 1999 to at least $7 million.

    When coupled with other partnership funds that is identified in the written testimony, $7 million would enable the Forest Service to purchase approximately two-thirds of the ranch by early 1999. The remaining third could then be purchased using fiscal year 2000 funds. As this will be an installment purchase involving water rights, which are difficult to separate from the land, increasing the fiscal year 1999 appropriation would greatly facilitate splitting the property along sales lines that obviously makes sense unique to that property.

    However, with only the Administration's request of $4 million, it will be virtually impossible to split the water rights equitably.

    The editorials and my more detailed written statement, Mr. Chairman, reflects that Bar T Bar presents an exceptional opportunity for the public to acquire a broad array of recreational, fishing and wildlife experiences. When coupled with virtually unparalleled water rights and offers of non-Federal funding assistance, Bar T Bar presents a compelling rationale for priority public acquisition.

    With the time I have here, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to bring to your attention another issue that is of importance to all Arizonans, and that is the potential drying up of San Carlos Lake, which is run by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. As you may remember, this lake nearly vanished last summer, due to draw-down from agricultural users downstream.
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    In response, those of us in the Arizona delegation wrote as a group, all of us, to Secretary Babbitt, asking him to release $300,000 under the Emergency Drought Relief Act of 1991, which he graciously complied with. State and private sources also contributed, and with this funding we were able to save the lake, which is vitally important to the San Carlos Apache Tribe, as well as environmentalists, recreationalists and anglers, not to mention those downstream agricultural users.

    Although substantial rain has started to replenish the lake, we could face the same problem in coming years. The BIA and my staff are working together to find an appropriate long term solution to San Carlos Lake. However, it is a complex problem that cannot be solved quickly.

    I have, therefore, drafted legislative language that would direct the Secretary to release funds from the Emergency Drought Relief Act when the lake reaches a certain critical level, 65,000 acre feet below which we run the risk of a devastating and costly fish kill.

    Mr. REGULA. This is pulled out of what reservoir? In other words, what is the source of river?

    Mr. HAYWORTH. The San Carlos-Gila River.

    Mr. REGULA. Does that a have a dam on it?

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    Mr. GORDON. Coolidge Dam.

    Mr. REGULA. Coolidge. And if he releases it, it flows into this lake, is that correct?

    The STAFF. No, Coolidge is the dam that the lake backs up from, from the Gila River coming from New Mexico, from the east to west.

    Mr. REGULA. But the Gila River, is it dried up?

    The STAFF. No, the Gila River is not dried up. The lake is. The agricultural users own all the water. So they draw it down.

    Mr. REGULA. The lake is below the dam?

    The STAFF. No, the lake is above the dam.

    Mr. REGULA. Are you saying close the dam and let the water back up?

    Mr. HAYWORTH. No. There are some problems, long term problems in terms of infrastructure there that have to be addressed in the long term. As we know, with competing jurisdictions, turf battles with BIA and everybody else, it gets to be a real challenge.

    This language, I think, would be a positive first step that I am submitting for the record, and a good short term solution. But I would ask, Mr. Chairman, that we take a look at trying to find an appropriate long term solution that may involve some more appropriations in terms of the infrastructure. I am not sure, I guess technically the BIA, under your jurisdiction here.
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    [The statement of Mr. Hayworth follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. We will take a look at it.

    Mr. HAYWORTH. I just very much appreciate it. Again, to reiterate about my first opportunity here, the Bar T Bar is really of great importance to people across the State. You have been very generous with your time and attention, and I thank you very much.

    Mr. REGULA. Well, we will try. We do not know what we will have yet. It depends on the budgeteers. And there is one behind you there.

    Mr. HAYWORTH. Always nice to have the budgeteers here, dedicated, hard working folks.

    Mr. REGULA. Whisper in Charles' ear.

    Mr. HAYWORTH. That is right. Thanks again very much. I appreciate it.     

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.

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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Bass.

    Mr. BASS. Thanks very much. The irony is not lost on me. I had to jump out of a Budget Committee meeting going on in the Capitol right now to formulate, to put in final form our package of recommended cuts.

    Mr. REGULA. We will excuse you if you would like to go back. I looked at your request, and I will be glad to excuse you. [Laughter.]

    Mr. BASS. Actually, this is not so bad, Mr. Chairman. But we are being very, with the exception of the last item, reasonable this year. I wanted to provide you, if I could, with a map of the Lake Umbagog property, which I have become quite familiar with. It is in the very northern part of New Hampshire. I used to serve on the land conservation investment board, which was a $50 million state land acquisition thing.

    We purchased a significant, the green in the bottom and the red are State-owned properties. The sort of dark green area at the top on the north—the purple in Maine and New Hampshire, some of it is in Maine, that is a parcel of approximately 2,000 acres.
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    Mr. REGULA. That is the whole lake.

    Mr. BASS. That is the whole lake right there. But that is a big lake, the scale is pretty small. That property there is for sale. Al the purple you see, three parcels in Maine and New Hampshire, at a cost of, it is estimated, but probably pretty accurate, of $1.8 million.

    It really completes, almost completes this phase of the Lake Umbagog is basically an untouched lake with the exception of a little development on the very north end and the very south end. There is a little place that is called Little Berlin up there, because the houses are, Berlin is a city south of the lake, very close to one another. But it is a very high priority. I had the pleasure of going there just last Saturday. Clearly, it represents an effort that has been undertaken for many years by both the State and the Federal authorities.

    The town of Erol, which you know, sometimes you have trouble with the localities of these, is very much in support of this project. I hope you can give it your best consideration.

    The second project is Smithsonian Festival of American Folklife. New Hampshire is the featured State in this annual festival, which is occurring on the mall here in Washington next year. We are requesting an additional $250,000 for the Smithsonian to use to make this festival a reality. As you know, it showcases local cultures and so forth, and New Hampshire is going to be the key State next summer.

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    Mr. REGULA. I would assume New Hampshire would put up at least an equal amount.

    Mr. BASS. Yes, New Hampshire will match. For the most part, this has been entirely self-funded in the past.

    A repeat on Silvio Conte. I understand that we are hopeful you might be able to include the willing seller-willing buyer language, as you did in last year's appropriation.

    And lastly, the President has requested $700,000 for operational expenses. There are no land acquisition earmarks at this point. We hope you can support the President's request.

    That is all I have.

    [The statement of Mr. Bass follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. BASS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I am most grateful for your consideration.     

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.

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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Blumenauer. You have quite an agenda.

    Mr. BLUMENAUER. Well, briefly, I will run through a few things, if I could. I will not go into too much detail over my statement. I did want to reinforce our appreciation for what the subcommittee has done in the past for acquisitions in the Columbia River Gorge. I think there is no place in America that you are going to buy more environmental protection per dollar.

    There are at least $4 million in critical properties that can and should be acquired in the next fiscal year. We are hopeful that those will be available.

    The President has requested $280,000 in payments to Gorge County to compensate for lost tax revenue due to Federal land acquisition. This has been a difficult transition for several of these counties. I think this would help make the process work very well.

    There is a Dallas riverfront trail, it is not in my district, it is in Congressman Smith's district, but it makes a big difference, as we are moving in and we are working with Congressman Bereuter and others for a celebration of the bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark.
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    Mr. REGULA. Did Lewis and Clark follow the Columbia River Gorge?

    Mr. BLUMENAUER. They went through this area, walking on the backs of millions of salmon, yes, sir.    Mr. REGULA. Have you read Ambrose's book?

    Mr. BLUMENAUER. I have, indeed. And last but not least, the National Scenic Area Office is requesting $1.169 million under the State and Private Forestry Grant. I am hopeful those will find their way into the Interior appropriations bill.

    In the past, there has been support for metropolitan green spaces program. The President has requested $300,000 for the next fiscal year, which is identical to the amount that was appropriated in the prior three fiscal years. I think we are doing some things in Metropolitan Portland with urban growth limits that demonstrate how we can stretch resource dollars. Green space acquisition and protection is an important part of that, and in the long run it is going to save money and protect the environment. I think it is a model that I hope can be emulated.

    Last but not least, I have appreciated what you folks have done in the past for the National Endowment for the Arts. I would like to add my voice in appreciation and willingness to do anything I can to support your efforts. I hope that at a minimum, the $138 million can find its way.

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    Mr. REGULA. It is not likely we can get there. You just heard the Budget chairman and it looks to me, that we probably will be flat funded on about all of our programs. So it will be tough to increase much of anything.

    Mr. BLUMENAUER. Understood. I want you to know that my support is here for as much as you folks can do, and I stand willing to help in any way.

    [The statement of Mr. Blumenauer follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.

    Mr. BLUMENAUER. Thank you for your courtesy.     

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Inglis.
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    Mr. INGLIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to come and testify again in favor of your consideration of the Jocassee Gorges project in South Carolina.

    The committee last year saw fit to help us with the purchase of this property. It happens to be some beautiful land that is near some major metropolitan areas in South Carolina. It is not in my district, but a lot of the people that would go to enjoy it are in my district.

    Mr. REGULA. This is a piece of land we have talked about.

    Mr. INGLIS. Yes, it is.

    Mr. REGULA. You would like it to be added to the Forest?

    Mr. INGLIS. That's right.

    Mr. REGULA. Yes, it is a good project. As your population grows, and obviously it is going to grow in your area, it is already growing pretty fast, you are going to need open space.

    Mr. INGLIS. That is right. There are three critical things I think are important to point out. One is, you funded it before, in 1997, you gave us $1 million, in 1998, $3 million. We are back this year to ask for the final $3 million.
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    Second thing I think is important to point out, I know the Chairman feels that it is important that State sources also be tapped. In this case, it is about a $30 million purchase. The State has come up with $10 million. We are asking the Federal Government here for a total of $7 million.

    Mr. REGULA. We can do this incrementally. It does not have to be all at one time. Is that correct?

    Mr. INGLIS. Correct. You have already done one, $1 million in 1997, $3 million in 1998, and this will be the final request for another $3 million in 1999.

    Mr. REGULA. And you have a State match on this.

    Mr. INGLIS. We would have more than a match. The total, we just indicated, would bring the Federal contribution to $7 million. The State is contributing $10 million. The rest of the $30 million is coming from private sources.

    Mr. REGULA. Is this a power company piece of land?

    Mr. INGLIS. Yes, Duke Power Company is making this available for sale. It is a single landowner, which is an amazing gift, really. This would otherwise be absolutely wonderful property to develop. Developers would love to have this.

    So Duke Power is being very kind to make it available.
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    Mr. REGULA. I am sure they are offering it at a reasonable price, too, as a public spirited gesture.

    Mr. INGLIS. They are. Of course, they are negotiating even now on trying to keep that price going down.

    The third thing I think is important, and I know is important to the Chairman, is that this is contiguous to existing U.S. Forest Service property. So it just expands the holding somewhat.

    For those three reasons, I hope that the committee once again sees fit to look favorably on this project, and I very much appreciate your help in the past.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Inglis follows:]

    offset folios 939 insert here

    Mr. REGULA. It is a very worthwhile project. I think South Carolina is becoming a retirement State as opposed to Florida and some of the other States. I find more and more people say it is the moderate climate they find appealing, and the recreational facilities.

    Mr. INGLIS. That is right.

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    Mr. REGULA. What kinds of hunting would be in there, do you have any idea?

    Mr. INGLIS. It would be multi-use, and there is a great deal of hunting there. Deer, of course, also I believe some bear. They have a two week bear season in South Carolina. It is an interesting mix of uses.

    Mr. REGULA. Any streams or rivers in it?

    Mr. INGLIS. Yes, a number of streams that come through these gorges. Just beautiful, beautiful land.

    Mr. REGULA. It is unspoiled at this point.

    Mr. INGLIS. Yes, it really is spectacular. You are going to have to come see it. Particularly since, now, this is not in my district, you understand, but my people go there, including my most important constituent who is into this sort of thing, that's my 12 year old son, who you recall was able to push the button last year on the Floor on this.

    So he has gotten me into canoeing and that kind of thing.

    Mr. REGULA. Do you have that kind of stream availability?

    Mr. INGLIS. Oh, yes. There is a lake, Lake Jocassee, it is a power lake. It's the first of a series, and it is a very deep, very cool——
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    Mr. REGULA. It's dammed, then?

    Mr. INGLIS. Yes. Probably in the 1950s.

    Mr. REGULA. They are not using it any more?

    Mr. INGLIS. No, it is in use.

    Mr. REGULA. They have reserved the right to use the power?

    Mr. INGLIS. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.

    Mr. INGLIS. Good to be with you, thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.



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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Weller.

    Mr. WELLER. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. Good to be with you again. Let me just begin by saying thank you for the support that your subcommittee under your leadership and Mr. Yates' leadership the last three years has given for the development of the Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie, which is part of the Joliet Arsenal Redevelopment, around a 19,000 acre conservation area, the largest of its kind. Of course, it is right in the center of a population of about 7 million people.

    Mr. REGULA. Is it woods or is it just prairie grass?

    Mr. WELLER. Well, there are a few trees out there. Actually, the wooded area is going to be part of what will be the second largest national veterans cemetery in the Nation, which is the Nohafe Woods are, but predominantly it is grass lands and former farm land that is being converted to tallgrass prairie, and I expect there will be reintroduction of some buffalo and even elk, they are talking about, which are native to Illinois. I did not know that prior to getting involved in this project.

    Mr. REGULA. Does Illinois have any military cemetery or veterans cemetery now?

    Mr. WELLER. There are several, but they are basically at capacity. There was a shortage, and the cemetery, of course, is separate from this particular project. But this will serve the entire Chicago region, one and a half million veterans.
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    But I came today, I wanted to ask the continued investment of your subcommittee. The last three years, you have invested $7 million in the development of the Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie. I wanted to come by and again ask for continued support. In this request, I ask $3.3 million, $1.6 million for operations, $1.2 million for design and planning for a visitors center, $500,000 for roads and parking.

    Development has been underway, and of course, the sooner we can finish the development, the sooner we can open it up generally to the public.

    I do want to note that besides the Federal funds that you have invested over the last three years, this has been a public-private partnership, major donations both by the corporate community, corporate neighbors, and also the State of Illinois, which has invested $2.3 million in non-Federal monies in the last three years. That includes $932,000 from the State of Illinois.

    The legislation, which we passed a couple of years ago, gives the Forest Service the ability to collect fees to help support the operations. Of course, they have not had any visitors yet. Until we can finish development, they are going to be unable to collect fees.

    I would also like to point out that hundreds of volunteers have already begun contributing time for restoration of the prairie. I have even spent a Saturday out there planting.

    Mr. REGULA. What would you go there to see besides tall grass?
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    Mr. WELLER. It is home to a number of endangered species, the upland sandpiper is probably the most well known.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay. So at the visitor's center, you focus on the wildlife.

    Mr. WELLER. There is plenty of wildlife. Of course, 19,000 acres is a lot of open space. There will be hiking and bicycling trails, picnic areas and so forth. I do want to point out, we are working with Metro, which is the mass transit for rail for the Chicago metropolitan area. Both the Veterans Administration, the Forest Service and the industrial park which is part of the Joliet Arsenal Redevelopment, has the potential to generate thousands of visitors a day.

    In fact, the VA, they are looking at 2,000 visitors a day. We are interested in eventually bringing Metro, to have a station located at the prairie.

    Mr. REGULA. It would help a lot with school groups, and with a lot of people. Is it literally tall grass?

    Mr. WELLER. There is some tall grass out there, that is right. Grass of varying size. One thing, there are certain types of birds out there, I think the upland sandpiper is one of them, that likes shorter grass, which is one of the reasons they want to make sure, there is currently some cattle out there, but if we are going to replace the cattle with buffalo, that will keep the grass grazed in certain areas. Certain types of birds prefer that.
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    [The statement of Mr. Weller follows:]

    offset folio 947 insert here

    Mr. REGULA. You said you want to reintroduce buffalo and elk.

    Mr. WELLER. Buffalo and elk are two of the species they would like to reintroduce out there, according to the Forest Service and Department of Natural Resources. Like I say, I did not know that elk was native to Illinois, but they are.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.

    Mr. WELLER. Thank you, and we would appreciate your continued help and support.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.



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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Visclosky.

    Mr. VISCLOSKY. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

    I understand my entire statement will be entered into the record, and I want to thank you for all of your past help and support, the committee's help and support and the staff's help and support.

    I have a number of requests pending and I look forward to working with you and the staff as you approach markup.

    [The prepared statement of Mr. Visclosky follows:]

    offset folios 951 to 954 insert here

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, we will look at them. Are any of these ongoing?

    Mr. VISCLOSKY. They are all very worthwhile, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Did we finish the dunes?

    Mr. VISCLOSKY. We finished acquisition of Crescent Dune, and you were very instrumental in making sure we had a significant earmark two years ago, Mr. Chairman. I do appreciate that very much. So that has been preserved.
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    We would need $6.4 million to complete acquisition of all authorized properties in the park. This year, there is a request for about $550,000 for existing hardship cases as a subset of that $6.4 million.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thanks for coming.

    Mr. VISCLOSKY. Thank you very much.

    Mr. REGULA. Was that land owned by a power company?

    Mr. VISCLOSKY. Yes.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Tanner.

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    So what you have is part of this?

    Mr. TANNER. Actually, I do not know what you have there. There are seven Federal reservations, reserves, refuges, whatever one wishes to call them, and they are all in Tennessee and they are all in our district, along the Mississippi River. This is the first regional conservation plan, Mr. Chairman, that brings together the management strategies and goals of the North American Waterfowl Management Plan, the Western Hemisphere Shore Bird Reserve Network and Partners in Flight.

    It brings them all together, and it is, I think, the idea that we will promote wildlife of all kinds, not to be specific. People do one thing for ducks and one thing for wild turkey and so forth. This brings everything together on the theory that all of them will benefit, whether they be waterfowl, shorebirds, song birds, game birds, whatever.

    Mr. REGULA. By the way, it encompasses more than one State?

    Mr. TANNER. Yes, there are six States. What they are trying to do, and the executive director of the Tennessee Wildlife Resource Management Agency, Gary Myers, who is a good friend of mine, I worked with him when I was in the General Assembly in Tennessee, has been very active in this effort. It is based on the premise of partnership, using public monies and leveraging them with matching private monies and using willing sellers to acquire some of this to restore bottom land, hardwood and hydrology, wetlands hydrology and so forth.

    I bring it to your attention, it is I think a product worthy of at least consideration.
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    Mr. REGULA. You are asking for funding to set up this regional effort?

    The STAFF. Right. It is already set up, Mr. Chairman. What they have done is the funds that have been spent so far have been primarily spent on acquisition from willing sellers. Now they are getting to the point where it is time to start implementing the conservation plans that are now being set up. That is what the funding request is designed to address.

    Mr. REGULA. So this will be matched with State and private money.

    The STAFF. Absolutely.

    Mr. REGULA. I like these programs. We try as much as possible to get matching, because it leverages the dollars so much.

    [The statement of Mr. Tanner follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. TANNER. I want to thank you for having this and letting us come down here. This is unusual, and we appreciate it very much.

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    Mr. REGULA. We have a full day of it. But you know, these are the things that are important to people in their districts.

    Mr. TANNER. You all are doing a good job. This is important stuff, because if we do not do it now, it will disappear.

    Mr. REGULA. What we are talking about here is 100 years from now, and all these open spaces will be extremely valuable as the population expands, the work week shortens, and people are more stressed out. They need a place to go. We are going to do as much as we can with the monies available. I often think about, somebody had a vision in Central Park, in New York City. I do not know who did it, but somebody sure did look ahead.

    The STAFF. Some of the best brook trout streams in America are now asphalt covered in New York City, and Long Island.

    Mr. REGULA. Yes. We have to save open space.

    Mr. TANNER. Thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.


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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Sherman.

    Mr. SHERMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to express my appreciation for your holding this hearing.

    I am here today to discuss the Backbone Trail in the Santa Monica Mountains. As you know, 14 million people live within an hour's drive of that park. I am here to request first that the committee and subcommittee approve the list put forward by the President on the $699 million.

    Mr. REGULA. I will have to say to you at the outset that we are not going to take the whole list as it is. The list reflects the President's priorities.

    Mr. SHERMAN. More particularly, the one particular line item therein, of $5.5 million for the completion of the Backbone Trail.

    Mr. REGULA. What will it take to complete the whole project out there?

    Mr. SHERMAN. The whole project could be as much as $200 million. However, the vast majority of those funds will be available from State and local funds. And of course, this is not a project that is going to be completed this millennia.
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    Mr. REGULA. What is the Backbone Trail? I saw it when I was out there, it follows a spine in the mountains.

    Mr. SHERMAN. That is it. With this $5.5 million, we will be able to complete the Backbone Trail, which will be 65 miles long, connect up the different areas within the park, both Federal ownership and State and county ownership. You will be able to take a 65 mile hike, it will take you a while, really from Santa Monica to Point Magoo in Ventura County.

    Mr. REGULA. On the ridge, would any of that money be provided by the State?

    Mr. SHERMAN. That 65 miles goes over property acquired with State and local funds, as well as Federal funds. I believe more of the land is owned by State and local than Federal. The $5.5 million is just to fill in about 3 miles of the 65. That particular fill-in, if you just look at those three miles, those three miles would be Federal.

    But if you look at the entire 65 miles, I would venture to say, and I know what the ratio of expenditure is in the park as a whole. I have not charted it for the Backbone Trail itself. In the park as a whole, the ratio is about a dollar and a half of State and local funds for every dollar of Federal funds.

    Mr. REGULA. Is there any reason the State could not participate in this three miles?

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    Mr. SHERMAN. The State is focusing on other priorities within the park. And I guess you could look at every project in the park and say, every project has to be both State and Federal. On the other hand, the State is doing a lot of things in the park that the Federal Government is not chipping in on. The ratio of Federal to State funds in this park, I think, is better than any park I can identify.

    Mr. REGULA. What makes this one tough is that the land is so expensive.

    Mr. SHERMAN. But if you value it per acre——

    Mr. REGULA. What would this be per acre?

    Mr. SHERMAN. I don't have those figures with me, since I am here focused mostly on 1999. We can certainly, and will get you those figures.

    Mr. REGULA. The Backbone Trail is three miles long and how wide?

    Mr. SHERMAN. It varies. You have to acquire particular parcels. At some parts, it's going to be rather narrow.

    Mr. REGULA. I would be interested in what the total acreage is in the three mile parcel. If you would just get it to the staff.

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    Mr. SHERMAN. Will do.

    I am here today just as much to focus on the 1999 budget as on the 1998 budget.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay. What if we conditioned some of it on State participation? I will talk to Doug Wheeler and see what the State's feeling is. I know the State is involved. There is a State park in the area and some county facilities.

    Mr. SHERMAN. There are, in fact. The regular State park department plus the Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy. It is more complicated to have each individual partial acquisition involve more than one buyer. But if there was a condition that while the Federal Government was spending the $5.5 million in the President's list, or whatever amount is appropriated in 1999, if it was conditioned on local and State efforts, being maintained at the same level per year as the Federal effort, that might very well be simple.

    It is tougher to coordinate two or three buyers per parcel.

    Mr. REGULA. I can understand that. Maybe the State could get some of the other parcels that are part of the ultimate. The boundary must be far beyond what has been acquired.

    Mr. SHERMAN. Roughly half of the land is in governmental ownership within the boundaries. So there are important parcels, including two I have come to talk to you about here today.
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    I believe the hearing is focused on fiscal year 1999, but as you point out, the fiscal year 1998 is also very important. The focus of what I would request for 1999 builds upon the Backbone Trail. So if I am faced with a question——

    Mr. REGULA. This is all Santa Monica, though?

    Mr. SHERMAN. Santa Monica Mountains National Recreational Area, yes. And the Backbone Trail, which is in the President's list for all the funds necessary to complete it, is even more important than the additional projects.

    Mr. REGULA. Your number one is Backbone.

    Mr. SHERMAN. Number one is Backbone.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay. Then your second priority would be these other tracts.

    Mr. SHERMAN. Exactly. And these tracts are adjoining the Backbone Trail, and will facilitate the use of that trail, not just be people, but by animal populations.

    Mr. REGULA. Are any of these threatened with development?

    Mr. SHERMAN. Yes. And yet, we are dealing with willing sellers. This is not an expropriation or even a threatened expropriation situation.
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    [The statement of Mr. Sherman follows:]


    Mr. REGULA. Okay, we will look at all of them.

    Mr. SHERMAN. Thank you very much for your time.

    Mr. REGULA. We do not know what we are going to have yet in the way of an allocation.      

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Saxton. Okay, Jim. You have quite an agenda here.

    Mr. SAXTON. Mr. Chairman, I guess I would just like to offer to have my entire statement in the record.
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    Mr. Chairman, as you probably know, New Jersey is the most densely populated State in the country. And that is one of the reasons for the rather lengthy agenda.

    Mr. REGULA. Are you per square mile the highest population density in the country?

    Mr. SAXTON. Highest in the country, yes. More people per square mile than any other State. In my district, you have been quite frankly, very, very helpful with regard to the Forsythe Refuge in expanding it. It is perhaps kind of an unusual type of refuge, because the parcels that we add almost annually are very seldom contiguous. We try to identify sensitive lands, wetlands, and uplands, to protect the wetlands, to acquire each year based on scientists' recommendations.

    Mr. REGULA. The refuge is not a contiguous piece of land.

    Mr. SAXTON. That is correct. It starts in what was Bill Hughes' district, which is now Frank LoBiondo's district. And there is some bay front, a large section of bay front in there in Atlantic County.

    Then it skips over some towns, and we have acquired some lands in Burlington County.

    Mr. REGULA. Will it not be difficult to administer?

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    Mr. SAXTON. That is one of the problems we have. However, in spite of the difficulties that are involved with acquisition of lands that stretch from Mr. Pallone's district through Mr. Smith's district, through my district and through Mr. LoBiondo's district, these are sensitive lands that migratory birds have traditionally used.

    And in the case of this year's request for additional acquisition, we have a 480 acre parcel which is prime for development. It fronts on Route 9, which runs parallel to Barnaget Bay and goes down to the bay.

    Mr. REGULA. Does any of this help to connect the parcels that are now separated?

    Mr. SAXTON. In some cases it may. However, that has not been ours or Interior's primary objective. The primary objective has been to acquire sensitive lands. In spite of the fact they are not contiguous, and in most cases, probably will not be contiguous, because of development that has occurred throughout the area, but rather to have as a primary objective to identify those lands that are the most environmentally necessary and sensitive, and to acquire them, rather than to have them developed.

    Mr. REGULA. How do they administer this? Do they just leave these parcels in the raw state for the migrating birds to set down there? They do not keep people on each one of them, I assume.

    Mr. SAXTON. That is correct. The parcels are by and large intended to remain in their natural state. In some cases they actually revert to a more natural state. In the case of this 480 acres, it was at one time used as a game farm. And it has dwellings and buildings on it which will be removed. Over time, Mother Nature will help it revert to its natural state.
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    Mr. REGULA. Are there any State lands inter-mixed with this?

    Mr. SAXTON. I cannot represent that that is so. However, I cannot tell you assuredly that is not so.

    Mr. REGULA. How many acres? Do you have any idea what is in it now?

    Mr. SAXTON. Approximately 10,000 acres.

    Mr. REGULA. How many acres are in New Jersey? This is a fairly populous area, is it not?

    Mr. SAXTON. Yes. The southern part of New Jersey has two strips of population center, if you will. One strip runs west of the New Jersey Turnpike, between the turnpike and the Delaware River. The other strip of population runs from the Garden State Parkway east to the ocean. In this case, we are talking about that strip of land that runs from the parkway to the ocean, and that is in which these various parcels are all located.

    Mr. REGULA. Does any of this front on the ocean?

    Mr. SAXTON. Most of it fronts on the bay, but not on the ocean. There is a barrier island system between the bay and the ocean.

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    Mr. REGULA. But you have one headquarters?

    Mr. SAXTON. Currently there is one headquarters. It is located in the section which was formerly known as Brigantine, which is where the headquarters for the Forsythe currently is.

    One of my other objectives here today, Mr. Chairman, was to bring to your attention the need for an additional administration building, for which we are requesting $200,000, which would be located in the northern section of the refuge.

    Mr. REGULA. This would be a separate building. It will not involve more people, though.

    Mr. SAXTON. That is correct.

    The land acquisition for this year, the request is $3.3 million. And we have the request for $200,000 for that.

    I would like to bring to your attention a new concept that we have been exploring in the Resources Committee. We passed a bill in the House which originated in the Resources Committee to provide for a volunteer program for the refuges, or to enhance the current volunteer program, because of the maintenance backlog. We are requesting $1,050,000 for the national implementation of that volunteer program. There are many instances——

    Mr. REGULA. Would this be just the Fish and Wildlife Service?
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    Mr. SAXTON. This would be for the refuge system.

    Mr. REGULA. The whole system.

    Mr. SAXTON. We believe that with a minimum investment, we can leverage that investment into a great deal of labor and contribution from the private sector. There are in some cases volunteer coordinators on the refuges now. However, Interior agrees that with some upgrading in the funding that we could expand the volunteer program, it would be very beneficial and very cost effective.

    So we are making that request for that additional money as well.

    Mr. REGULA. Volunteers are a very important component of all our land agencies, parks, forests, etc.

    Mr. SAXTON. We also at the Forsythe have an operation and maintenance backlog, for which we are requesting $475,000, and there are a variety of things I will not go into that that money will be used for.

    The final item on my agenda are funds for an education program. The southern part of New Jersey, in the center of the State, I told you about the population sections on either side, west of the turnpike and east of the parkway. The center part of the State is known as the Pinelands National Reserve. And we are requiring $500,000 to implement the Pinelands Interpretive program, which is an educational program for school children and other individuals.
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    Mr. REGULA. Is that managed by the Fish and Wildlife Service?

    Mr. SAXTON. Yes, it is.

    Mr. REGULA. Or is that the National Park Service?

    Mr. SAXTON. It is actually administered by the State of New Jersey, with oversight from the Division of Fish and Wildlife.

    [The statement and a correction letter of Mr. Saxton follow:]


    Mr. REGULA. Okay. We finished the forest, didn't we.

    Mr. SAXTON. Yes, sir, we ran the track.      

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.



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    Mr. REGULA. Okay, the next on the list is Mr. Stupak.

    Mr. STUPAK. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. Chairman, I want to talk a little bit today about my national parks up in northern Michigan. First, I would like to mention, our first priority is the Keweenaw National Park, where we are requesting $950,000 appropriation.

    Mr. Chairman, as you have heard me testify before, before this committee, the uniqueness of the park in that area requires $4 of State and local money for every $1 the Federal Government puts in.

    Mr. REGULA. Did you say it is required?

    Mr. STUPAK. Right in the enabling statute.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay. That's fine.

    Mr. STUPAK. And to date, the State, local and private interests have put in about $16 million in the park. Yet there has never been a specific Federal commitment towards the park. As time passes, we have seen that support for the park will decrease among the private and local community if the Federal Government does not step up to the plate.

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    In the past we have been told that, well, we don't have a general management and the park is not completed yet, so therefore you cannot expect anything. We are just going through the printing and the final comment, by June of this year, it will be done. So fiscal year 1999 is the perfect opportunity to get us some money up there.

    The $950,000 is not a lot of money. In fact, their wish list is much, much more. But the midwest region, they have indicated to use that they urgently need the $950,000 money to be appropriated. Some will go for staffing, a quarter of a million of that would go for pre-acquisition costs, and $100,000 is for the advisory commission.

    The reason for the advisory commission, again, this is sort of a unique park, different than other parks, in that terms of property ownership, the Federal Government role is limited to those structures that are truly in the national interest and fundamental to the park concept. The non-Federal side, that is where the park advisor commission comes in, and they really have control over that, they are ready to begin their work, but they need the $100,000.

    So altogether, we crunched everything for Keweenaw National Park, which our request would be millions, they said, if you can get us an additional $950,000, that would be excellent. Mr. Chairman, if there is a number one priority, that would be it.

    At the same time, I would also ask the subcommittee's insight on how we can best deal with this park. It is a unique concept, we have never tried it before. To get the funding flexibility requires to fully take advantage of the unique partnership we do have here.

    Secondly, Mr. Chairman, Sleeping Bird Dunes National Lakeshore, I am not talking about the leases this time, in their management plan in 1992, they indicated $800,000 for a parking lot and restrooms. The reason why that is important in this park, there is a state highway that goes right down the middle of it. There is a river there, the Platte River, where everyone does canoeing. There is one canoe livery station left. According to the master plan, that is the way it is going to be.
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    But we have probably about 55 percent of the days in July and August through Labor Day weekend, people are parking all over the road, trying to cross the State highway, because we do not have adequate parking. So we are asking for that $800,000, directing the Park Service to put in the $800,000 for additional parking and restrooms.

    They have the money. Remember in Michigan we are charging the fees for visitation.

    Mr. REGULA. Is this a fee park?

    Mr. STUPAK. This is a fee park. They all are except Keweenaw, because of the uniqueness of it.

    Then third is the Isle Royal Park. Even that is a fee park, Mr. Chairman, but that is one of the parks that has really been neglected. I know all the parks are not funded to the full possibility but we are asking for $1.05 million, just over a million dollars above the President's request for Isle Royal. Again, each one of these requests, it is not just me, but the midwest regional office and the documents are attached here which supports my funding request for each one of these.

    Picture Rocks National Lake Shore, thanks for your help in the past on the road issue there. And there again, we just need about $500,000 there to do some important maintenance projects. And again, I have a detailed summary attached by the midwest regional office. As far as the road, H. 59 and Picture Rocks that you have been a great help to us on, hopefully this bill that is going through Congress today on the Floor, ISTEA, we will grab a little money of there to take care of that.
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    So again, thanks for your direction there.

    Last but not least, PILT payment. I know you understand the program extremely well. You know the issue. Some parts of my district, 70 percent of the county is owned by the Ottawa National Forest. Since we rely on those PILT payments, and you know since 1977 it has been underfunded, we have increased the authorization levels four years ago, but we never put any money into it. Whatever the committee could do would certainly be appreciated.

    With that, Mr. Chairman, I guess that summarize it. Keweenaw Park is one that needs a shot, just to show to the locals that we are serious with our commitment.

    [The statement of Mr. Stupak follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Priority wise, that would be your first choice.

    Mr. STUPAK. That would be my first choice. Thank you.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.
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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Kildee, you are next.

    Mr. KILDEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Good afternoon. I am here as both co-chairman of the Congressional Native American Caucus and also as a member of the Resources Committee. I want to thank you for this opportunity to address the fiscal year 1999 budget request for the Indian Health Services, IHS and the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

    I respectfully request that the subcommittee approve an increase of $267 million for IHS, provide an increase of $1.1 million for BIA tribal priority allocations to the Little River Band of Ottawa Indians, and increase funding for school construction and tribal courts.

    The President's fiscal year 1999 budget request for the Indian Health Service is $2.118 billion, which reflects an increase of $19.7 million over fiscal year 1998. This amount represents less than a 1 percent increase, the lowest of all the agencies in the Department of Health and Human Services.
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    Mr. REGULA. In truth, it is a reduction, because of the step grade pay raises and inflation. We are very aware of it. In fact, I put a memo out on the fact that I thought the President really shortchanged Indian health.

    Mr. KILDEE. Mr. Chairman, you could not have summarized it better.

    Mr. REGULA. We are very sensitive to that problem.

    Mr. KILDEE. I very much appreciate it. I was going to mention the very things you mentioned more eloquently than I have there. So I am very happy that you recognize that.

    With respect to the President's Bureau of Indian Affairs budget request for fiscal year 1999, I urge you to support the budget request for $110 million increase for the operation of Indian programs that includes $33.8 million increase in tribal priority allocations, TPA.

    Mr. Chairman, on March 5th, Mr. Robert Gearhardt, the tribal chairman of the Little River Band of Ottawa Indians of Michigan, whose reservation is in Mr. Stupak's district, testified before your subcommittee about an error in the TPA account that needs to be corrected in order for the Little River Band to receive its fair share of the TPA funding. The Band is now receiving about 50 percent less per member than other comparably situated tribes. I would strongly urge you to correct this error and give the Band a TPA base of $1.1 million for fiscal year 1999.
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    They are a new tribe. It is incredible what they are doing with their self-sufficiency, but they need this TPA account increased.

    I support the proposed increase of $86.6 million in BIA funding for school construction. The Indian community will use this funding increase for replacement of schools, construction and education facilities, improvement and repair.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me say, we are very sensitive to all the Indian needs. It is very difficult to do all that we know needs to be done, health, education, law enforcement. It is difficult.

    Mr. KILDEE. The budget request earmarks part of this funding to complete school construction as you know, in Arizona, Iowa and Nevada. I think the completion of that should be a priority, and I know you have been very resourceful on that.

    Mr. REGULA. It is just a matter of having the funds.

    Mr. KILDEE. While I support the President's request for increase in funding, the estimated need for school construction exceeds $800 million. This unmet need causes me great concern. I do know you have a real problem in trying to meet that fully. But if you can address it in some fashion, I certainly would appreciate it.

    Mr. REGULA. We will do the best we can with what we have.

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    Mr. KILDEE. Thank you.

    Mr. REGULA. We are sensitive to all these problems with the Native Americans.

    Mr. KILDEE. I recognize you have to balance the need with what is available, and the demands of the budget agreement.

    The budget request provides $25 million for the law enforcement initiative. The Department of Justice fiscal year 1999 budget for the initiative is $125 million. The BIA and DOJ combined funding of $150 million for the law enforcement initiative would improve public safety in Indian Country.

    I am disappointed that the President's budget did not request an increase in funding for tribal courts. The $10 million with the Department of Justice to establish the Indian tribal courts program is not an adequate increase for funding the tribal courts. So I strongly urge you to increase the funding for these courts.

    Mr. REGULA. They talked to us about that.

    Mr. KILDEE. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. Chairman, I ask that your subcommittee provide funding for programs and services under the BIA and IHS to assure that the needs of our Nation's first Americans are adequately met, and our collective goal for a stronger economic base in Indian Country is fully realized.
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    This concludes my remarks about the BIA and IHS budget request for fiscal year 1999. I thank you for what you have done in the past, you have been sensitive to the needs, and I do realize you have only a certain amount of money. I used to serve on the Budget Committee, and I found out the Budget Committee was fairly irrelevant. You make the real decisions here. After six years on the Budget Committee, I was not convinced there was a need for it any more.

    [The statement of Mr. Kildee follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. I was on the Budget Committee six years myself.

    Mr. KILDEE. But I do know that combined with your sensitivity to Indian needs and fiscal situation that you will try to do your very, very best.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.


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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Nadler, you can see we are getting backed up here, so anything you can do to speed it up, we will appreciate it.

    Mr. NADLER. I will speed it up. Mr. Chairman, I have a lengthy statement which I will hand you.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to testify before you today in support of funding for the National Endowment for the Arts, National Endowment for the Humanities and the Institute for Museum and Library Services. I urge you to fund these programs at the level requested by the President, $136 million each for the NEA and NEH, and $26 million for the Office of Museum Services within the Institute of Museum and Library Services.

    Last year, funding for the NEA was cut to its lowest level in two decades. It is time for a change. I will not go through all these well drafted paragraphs about how the NEA is vital to our society, to our health, to our culture, and to our economy. You can read it into the record the testimony from last year, it has not changed. And also it is in the statement there.

    But the NEA, I do want to say the following. The NEA supports the arts. One of the ways it supports the arts is by stimulating the growth of local arts agencies. Before the NEA, only five agencies had State funded arts councils. Now they all do.
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    Because of the formula changes that we enacted last year, these State arts agencies will play an even larger role in our communities, and NEA's budget should increase so that every State can foster thriving artistic communities.

    The NEA, however, does much more than just fund local arts agencies. It supports nationally important work, like the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, public television programs, and numerous touring artists groups that bring excellent art to local communities all across the Nation. Not to New York City, without the local touring groups we would still have them in New York, but to rural and small communities all over. The State arts agencies obviously cannot do it. States are not going to use their limited funds for touring groups to spend most of their time in other States.

    The NEH is also vital for the reasons I stated in the written statement, as is the Office of Museum Services. So I urge you to fully fund the Administration's request, so that we as members of Congress can live up to our constitutional obligation to promote the general welfare, help our citizens truly pursue happiness to the fullest meaning of the word.

    Let me make a special comment. Last year I came before this committee and urged funding for the NEA. As you know, the committee recommended closing the agency and providing $10 million for that purpose only. I believe very strongly that was a serious mistake. I further believe that what happened to the NEA on the Floor of the House was a disgrace. The Rules Committee singled out the NEA for harsh treatment and refused to allow Sid Yates to offer an amendment to restore funding for the NEA on the Floor of the House.

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    Mr. REGULA. Well, as you know, there is no authorization, and that is part of the problem.

    Mr. NADLER. I understand that, there is no authorization. And that is a part of the problem. Nonetheless, you refused to allow to do it, it routinely waives similar points of order on other things.

    Mr. REGULA. And the policy of Gerry Solomon has been that there is no waiver if the authorizing chairman does not agree to one. And in this instance, Mr. Goodling would not agree. You understand.

    Mr. NADLER. I understand. But let's be real. There is a very strong, or there was at least, I don't know if there still is, there was a very strong debate within the entire House, not just any committee, over the NEA. The majority of the House wanted the NEA to continue.

    To refuse the opportunity to vote on that question, whether the NEA should continue, which is a rather fundamental question, was wrong. The rule was almost defeated because of that. It came within one vote of being defeated because members felt so strongly. And frankly, it left you, Mr. Chairman, in a difficult position in the conference.

    Mr. REGULA. I know very well.

    Mr. NADLER. I am sure you do. I think we all ought to make your job in the conference less difficult this year. So I hope this committee will report funding for the NEA. I think we had the big battle last year. We do not need a repeat of that big battle on the Floor of the House, another rules vote, another conference.
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    We did it, we got it out of the system. Whoever made commitments did their part to fulfill commitments. Let's do the rational and reasonable thing, and whatever the level of funding is going to ultimately end up being, we don't have to go through this ''sturm nach drang'' again. Let's report a reasonable level of funding.

    [The statement of Mr. Nadler follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, thank you.

    Mr. NADLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Bilbray, you are next.
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    Mr. BILBRAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I appreciate the chance to be able to appear here today.

    As your subcommittee prepares for the 1999 year, I would like you to consider some of the items that we have already discussed, and probably the major one is our flagship project in San Diego, multi-species management and conservation program.

    I think you understand that this is a classic private-public partnership, local, State and Federal agencies working to perform something that sadly is all too often missed, and that is a balanced, sound resource management plan. You are aware of the progress of the program. I appreciate the fact that you have been very supportive.

    Mr. REGULA. We are pushing the HCPs. I think it is a great way to solve a difficult problem.

    Mr. BILBRAY. It is a great way to be cooperative, proactive, not punitive and reactive.

    Mr. REGULA. Exactly.

    Mr. BILBRAY. As you did in the last year, I think you recognize this is a bipartisan effort, with many counties, San Diego, Riverside, Orange County, a huge population base. I am particularly interested in the Bureau of Land Management's efforts on Old Time Mountain in San Diego County and the further strengthening of the San Diego National Wildlife Refuge.
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    As you are aware, the Fish and Wildlife Service is presently in the middle of a public comment period of the potential of designating the South Bay unit of the refuge, which would encompass parts of San Diego South Bay region. As you and I have discussed in the past, I would ask the subcommittee to closely monitor the evolution of this process. There are legitimate concerns which have been expressed by both the environmental community and local communities and other jurisdictions about the public comment period and the possibility of extending it through mid-June.

    I have attached for your review two articles from the Imperial Beach Sun, which reflects two different perspectives which I have heard repeatedly by my constituents about the potential South Bay unit, along with a letter from the City of Coronado, which actually has probably the largest percentage of the proposed refuge in their city.

    My concern is that the Fish and Wildlife Service understand that this is a chance for them to leave the old processes behind and move towards a more cooperative one, and that the South Bay Unit of the San Diego Refuge effort, there must be a consensus acquired before we move forward with this issue, that the consensus and the agreement should incorporate all the stockholders to avoid undue conflict.

    I would ask the subcommittee to take special interest in ensuring that this process ultimately occurs prior to any unit designation being made. I appreciate your actions on this item. All the talk in the world of cooperative effort, if the Federal Government is just going to come in and mandate without the community actually being participating in the process I think is counter-productive.
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    In fact, we want to make sure the surrounding communities are not just supportive but actually are partners, so that they are able, we want the system to be surrounded by allies.

    Mr. REGULA. Yes. That way it will work.

    Mr. BILBRAY. Hopefully. Mr. Chairman, I would also like to call on a more negative issue, the fundamentally unacceptable situation which exists regarding a long suffering proposal of low level radiation disposal facility in Ward Valley. You are familiar with the history of this project, which is so important to the medical treatment and research facilities and high-tech, biotech companies in my district, and all throughout the State of California.

    Mr. REGULA. Is this not a problem for another agency of Government?

    Mr. BILBRAY. Actually, I think it falls under your jurisdiction. This is the sad part about it. The situation has been completely mismanaged by the Department of the Interior. The Interior Department is who is actually controlling this, and this has been our frustration, and the Bureau of Land Management.

    Mr. REGULA. We are familiar with the form of the protest, of course.

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    Mr. BILBRAY. Right. Sadly, the situation has gotten to where the American Indian movement——

    Mr. REGULA. Is being used, I think.

    Mr. BILBRAY. Basically has taken possession of U.S. territory, public lands, and have controlled access to the point to where BLM rangers are disarmed when they want to come onto the property, and the AIM security is controlling the property, not the United States Government.

    More disturbing, Mr. Chairman, are the recent allegations basically pointing out that there is an intention by the Department of the Interior to collaborate with the activists. What is sad about this is that at the same time these allegations are being made, Secretary Babbitt has asked Calvin Gover, the Assistant Secretary of BIA, to negotiate with the activists who are illegally occupying the site.

    Now, let me point out that I have several memos from the State of California and other material which further expands on the documents that this troubling situation is developing, which I would like to include in the hearing.

    Mr. REGULA. This will all be in the record.

    Mr. BILBRAY. Thank you. The potential for violent conflict under this volatile circumstance is extremely unsettling. The precedents which will be set by this incident, the Federal Government negotiating with lawbreakers for the return of illegally seized Federal property, will have wide ranging negative ramifications.
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    Nothing has changed to warrant further delay with this facility. There are no new legitimate questions or environmental or scientific or a legal nature which has arisen that might justify Interior's incompetent handling and outright cynical political manipulation of this important public project. Interior still does not have the authority, expertise or jurisdiction to properly address the situation, much less the finding that would be required to conduct tests which they claim are needed, but they are now allowing themselves to be blocked from providing.

    Mr. REGULA. Has not California already done tests?

    Mr. BILBRAY. California wants to do tests and have done it, but now the Department of the Interior is saying, oh, we want to do our own tests before we turn it over. Now they are saying, well, we cannot do those tests because we cannot get on the land, so we cannot turn over the land.

    I appreciate your understanding of the situation, I just think we need to highlight, and waited, and working within the law that the Federal Government mandates has cooperated with the National Academy of Sciences and everybody along the line. The Administration, and I say this as someone who is pretty darned moderate, I do not get upset about issues too often, the Administration has cynically manipulated this and dragged it on for political reasons. I will be frank with you, I think they meant to drag it along only so long and now it is out of hand, out of control.

    I appreciate your consideration of the matter, Mr. Chairman.

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    [The statement of Mr. Bilbray follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.

    Mr. BILBRAY. Thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Ms. MORELLA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it is a delight to be here with you. I know the tremendous pressures placed upon you time-wise and in terms of arranging the appropriation are enormous. So I particularly appreciate it.

    I am here to talk to you about two little important issues. One of them has to do with, two treasures that we all love, one of them is the C&O National Historical Park. We all recall the devastating damage to it, and you all helped out. The Park got $65 million in damages throughout the 184.5 mile park. Park staff and over 7,000 volunteers have worked tirelessly to complete the needed repairs.
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    Appropriations from Congress and donations from individuals and businesses really did help to support high priority repairs throughout the park, and I thank you.

    Mr. REGULA. Is it pretty much back to normal?

    Ms. MORELLA. No, it really is not, but they are working on it. What they really need to do is look long range in terms of a contingency fund, contingent upon natural phenomena.

    Mr. REGULA. It is open?

    Ms. MORELLA. It is open, oh, yes. People are using it constantly.

    The C&O Canal park staff and consultants have identified an additional $4.9 million in crucial repairs needs that are currently not funded. I have included with my statement a copy of their priority list. The park needs our support in continuing the flood recovery program with additional funds for important projects. Many of those high priority repairs are within my district in Montgomery County, Maryland, where as you know, millions of visitors enjoy the recreational opportunities provided by the park.

    As park staff have evaluated damaged structures and features and prepared designs for various repair projects, sustainability has been a primary concern. The park has actively sought input from other agencies, consultants and specialists to aid in identifying the most cost effective, sustainable ways.
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    Mr. REGULA. You have the area west of 495?

    Ms. MORELLA. Yes, I do. Part of the park is in my district, not all of it, obviously.

    Mr. REGULA. How about where they run the boat? Is that in your district?.

    Ms. MORELLA. Not up in Cumberland, but there is a boat at Hungerford Tavern, where the Great Falls merge from Virginia and Maryland. That is where they had such tremendous damage, and that is where most of your visitors will go there and bring their guests and members of Congress go and bring their constituents.

    But it goes all the way up to Cumberland.

    Mr. REGULA. I understand that.

    Ms. MORELLA. So I hope that you will help the park with that small amount that they need so desperately. It needs additional design funds to evaluate projects that would enhance the capability of the park to endure future floods. And when I mentioned the needs long range, I am hoping to in the future work with them in some public-private partnership to have this kind of contingency fund for natural disasters.

    Mr. REGULA. I am sure they use a lot of volunteers.
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    Ms. MORELLA. They used AmeriCor, all the groups came in and volunteered.

    I want to point out one other issue you know I am interested in, that's Glen Echo Park. Glen Echo Park is a tiny facet of the National Park System. It is a regional treasure for the Washington, D.C. area. It is a truly unique facility, it has a long tradition. It started out as a Chataqua think tank, an amusement park, whatever. It now continues to be a rich source of entertainment, educational and cultural activities for thousands of residents in the area.

    As you know, I have worked for the preservation of my park during my Congressional period. You have been very supportive in the past. I hope to get you out there again with Deborah and others. With your support and leadership in previous years, the park received the desperately needed funds they needed for construction, repair and rehabilitation. That was basically what you all did.

    Mr. REGULA. Is there any chance the State or local community will take it over?

    Ms. MORELLA. To a degree. That is actually what I am mentioning in here, we did have a major public hearing. We walked through the park, the State, local and myself, Federal people with the park people. There previously had been sort of a town meeting, but not as much as the constituents would have liked, that the Park Service had with Audrey Calhoun, G.W. Parkway.
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    But when we had the last one, which was planned, where people testified, we found that the people who use the park, these are the cooperators who have the yurts where they teach, all the art facilities, the carousel, the adventure theater, the puppet theater and a number of amenities there.

    Mr. REGULA. Is the park east or west of 495?

    Ms. MORELLA. It is McArthur Boulevard, it is west.

    Now, when this group came together, inside, yes, on the western side.

    Mr. REGULA. I noticed the Glen Echo exit on the beltway.

    Ms. MORELLA. Yes, it takes you right there. I appreciate that. My human compasses.

    At any rate, during that discussion, there is a desire for doing a public-private kind of partnership. And a task force has now been set up by the county to do that. But they want a Federal presence, and they should have it.

    Mr. REGULA. Does the Federal Government now administer it?

    Ms. MORELLA. It does.

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    Mr. REGULA. Does it have a superintendent?

    Ms. MORELLA. Absolutely. Audrey Calhoun heads G.W. Parkway as part of it. Which is why sometimes it works along like an orphan. So there is a desire for this kind of partnership that could be worked out, and there is a task force for it.

    What we did find, in listening to the cooperators who want to stay there, is that they operate on one year leases. That means they have to compete every single year.

    Mr. REGULA. The concessionaires?

    Ms. MORELLA. Concessionaires, right. And also, for the Spanish Ballroom, the Spanish Ballroom got a grant from the State of Maryland, which had to be matched, $300,000 to be matched by the Park Foundation. They matched it, $600,000. The public works put a proviso on that bond bill, and said that you have to have the Spanish Ballroom in existence as a ballroom for 10 years. Maybe it was 15 years. Ten or 15 years.

    They could not do it, because the park said, the lease had to be for one year at a time. Ridiculous.

    So therefore, the bond bill is held up until we get some clarification from the Park Service. And I think your committee can make sure we have it.

    Also, if we can do something with longer term leases, this is not in my statement specifically, with longer term leases for these cooperators, then they are willing to invest more into it, because it becomes an investment, and they don't have to go through that hassle. If I could get some statement from this committee that that could be worked out, and bring it to one of those task force meetings, I think it would really help to expedite a plan without that being one of the barriers.
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    At any rate, I ask for your assistance with Glen Echo Park.

    [The statement of Ms. Morella follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. We will continue to discuss it.

    Ms. MORELLA. Excellent. I appreciate that very much. It is indeed a national treasure.

    Mr. REGULA. We need to find a long term solution for it.

    Ms. MORELLA. I think we will be able to do it. But the Park Service has to have a presence, and there are some things they have to preserve, I think, in terms of what their mandate is. But I think we could help to generate that partnership.

    Mr. REGULA. How big is it?

    Ms. MORELLA. They have a park facility, where people can sit and have snacks. There are no real recreational fields. But they have a beautiful carousel. People walk through it.

    Mr. REGULA. It is kind of an amusement park.
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    Ms. MORELLA. It used to be. It is really now it's more cultural amusement. They do have some big fairs there. They used to have the Irish festival. They now have the folk festival. They get people from all over the region, and other States, too. Well, you should see the turnout we got at that hearing that indicates the tremendous interest.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. You are great as usual, and you have a great staff.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.





    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Hall. Tony, I will let you speak for all of Ohio.

    Mr. HALL. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I really want to thank you for all the help you have given us in Dayton, and certainly in my district and Dave Hobson's district, you have been tremendous right from the start with our national park. So today, I am joining with my Ohio colleague, Mr. Hobson, to request $1.6 million for the National Park Service to complete——
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    Mr. REGULA. This will finish it.

    Mr. HALL. This will finish the building.

    Mr. REGULA. How much is being provided by the local community?

    Mr. HALL. They intend to raise $1.7 million.

    Mr. REGULA. So they are going to have at least a 50–50 match.

    Mr. HALL. I do not know if it is that much. Because when you consider you gave us some money last year——

    Mr. REGULA. Well, yes, prospectively it would be.

    Mr. HALL. Actually, the non-Federal match is about a quarter of the total project.

    Now, the $1.6 million for the national park, I'm pleased to inform you, has really been revised down. The Park Service, originally, when they estimated the cost, was off for two reasons. They made a mistake when they calculated the cost per square foot. They included non-construction costs, which they should not have. They included some exhibits, and they were very expensive. That is not Federal.
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    The second reason is they refined some earlier rough estimates. And they just found it did not cost as much. The community still intends to raise $1.7 million.

    We are as you know requesting the money because of our 2003 committee. We expect the large crowds from the United States to visit, and we are just trying to get it ready.

    I have a complete statement.

    [The statement of Mr. Hall follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. It will be part of the record. Without objection, we will put Dave Hobson's statement in here at the same place.

    Mr. HALL. I thought he would be here, I know he will be shortly. But you have been really helpful to us. If it was not for you and Mr. Vento, we would have been in trouble a long time ago.

    Mr. REGULA. It is on our license plates, right?

    Mr. HALL. Yes. You have been great, thanks.

    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Hobson, we put your statement in the record with Tony Hall's. So you don't have to do it. I just though they ought to be together.
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    Mr. HOBSON. Yes. If I might, I have a little statement I would like to read to you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. Without objection.

    Mr. HOBSON. First of all, it is a pleasure to be here today with you to talk about the restoration of the Hoover Print Block, which is part of the Dayton Aviation Heritage National Historical Park located in both Montgomery County, Ohio, and Tony Hall's district, my neighbor, and in Green County, in my district.

    I want to thank the committee for providing the first phase of funding for the Hoover Print Block project in last year's Interior appropriations bill. And I also want to assure you, Mr. Chairman, that the misunderstanding about the scope and cost of this project has been cleared up. That is the particular reason I want to get this into the record. Most of the Park Service's original concerns about the cost, I believe, have been addressed.

    In addition, the costs of the project are coming down from the original estimate, which is in my experience, rather unusual around here.

    Today, Tony and I are requesting $1.6 million from the National Park Service for phase two to complete restoration of the Wright Job Printer Center at the Hoover Block Building by the year 2003, the 100th year anniversary of powered flight. We originally had expected that the need for three phases of funding, however, the $1.6 million we are requesting today will complete the Federal share of this project, and there will not be a need for any funding in phase three, which was originally estimated at around $1.2 million.
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    As you may recall, the Wright Brothers printed a tattered newspaper in the Hoover Print Block building, a newspaper established by the famous black poet, Paul Lawrence Dunbar, which is something I fought for to have included in this project when the Senate had some problems with it. But I'm very pleased that it has been maintained.

    By the way of background, the Dayton Aviation Heritage Park was established through P.L. 102–419, legislation that Congressman Hall and I jointly sponsored and you helped us very much on the Floor. I think it was the first thing I did on the Floor, and you were very helpful.

    The public law created a public-private partnership focusing on the preservation of various historical sites associated with aviation and the Wright Brothers. The sites included the Wright Brothers cycle shop, the Wright Brothers print shop, the 1905 Wright Flyer in Carolina Park, Huffman Prairie Flying Field on Wright Patterson Air Force Base, and the Paul Lawrence Dunbar House.

    The establishment of the park is a result of a true public-private partnership. In fact, State and local partners provided the startup funding for the park.

    The local community is committed to continuing its support of the Dayton Aviation Heritage Park by providing an adequate match of about 20 percent for this project. The State of Ohio is considering allocating $1.7 million as capital budget for the local match.

    We ask that the National Park Service provide $1.6 million to complete the renovation work. The community has agreed to fund the construction and the installation of the exhibits and the audio-visual program. Estimates indicate that this portion amounts to approximately 20 percent of the total cost of the project.
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    Restoration of the Hoover Print Block is an important component of the 2003 celebration planned to commemorate the centennial of powered flight. It is important that Federal funds are secured for the restoration prior to the year 2000, and any delay I think can prevent that project.

    We really appreciate your help, Mr. Chairman. You have been very helpful to this project. I think it is good for the country.

    Mr. REGULA. The local community and the State of course are coming through.

    Mr. HOBSON. I think that is something you have established as a criteria, which I think should be, as an appropriator myself and a budgeteer. The reason I was not here earlier, we are over wrestling with the budget right now.

    I think this public-private partnership is something good to establish, not only for here but other projects. So again, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

    Mr. REGULA. We hope we can finish the project so it is ready to go and timely.

    Mr. HOBSON. This, coupled with the Aviation Hall of Fame at Wright Patterson, is going to make a really nice addition, the two together. Because Wright Patterson right now, they just told me there are about 2 million visitors a year to Wright Patterson, to the museum, the Air Force museum three. That with this I think makes a very good historical program for the area.
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    So we thank you very much for this.

    [The statement of Mr. Hobson follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Deal.

    Mr. DEAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to reiterate my appreciation to you and your staff for all the assistance you have given to me in two projects that are very important to my district, roads and mountain trout. I especially appreciate the fact that Debbie and Loretta would come down and visit these facilities, especially the Chickamauga-Chattanooga National Battlefield.

    What I would like to request is, you have been most helpful over the last several years in trying to finalize this bypass around the park. In the report language last year, the final version said that the Park Service was to complete it by December 31, 1999. Since that does overlap into this next fiscal year, I would simply request that we repeat that direction in the report.
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    Mr. REGULA. Are they moving on it?

    Mr. DEAL. They have been receptive. As always, they say contingent upon the highway money, trust fund money being appropriated. As you know, we were able to route it through that funding.

    But I think if we could simply repeat the report language.

    Mr. REGULA. I will make a note on that.

    Mr. DEAL. All right. The second is with regard to the trout fish hatchery that is in my district. The President has recommended $280,000 for continued operation costs this year, and I would request the committee to approve that.

    [The statement of Mr. Deal follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. There is no possibility of the State taking this one, is there?

    Mr. DEAL. No, we had explored that. I think the fish hatchery people have determined that it is somewhat unique, because this is a replacement of trout streams that were, in effect, changed as a result of the building of Federal dam projects.
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    Mr. REGULA. All right.

    Mr. DEAL. If we could just sustain the President's recommendation, it is a small amount of money for that.

    Mr. REGULA. I noticed you have part of the Chattahoochee?

    Mr. DEAL. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. You have a new chair, is that correct?

    Mr. DEAL. The Chattahoochee River, which is the corridor, yes, the river originates up in the mountains of my district and goes on, flows through into his district. I believe you visited.

    Mr. REGULA. Where is the break, in your district?

    Mr. DEAL. My district is right at the point where the dam forms Lake Lanier, which backs up the Chattahoochee River.

    Mr. REGULA. There is a large size community north of Atlanta on the Chattahoochee, I cannot remember the name of it.

    Mr. DEAL. There is a huge area along the Chattahoochee in Gwynette county, and Cobb County area as well, that Newt has. Gainesville is the primary area in my district, it is primarily around Lake Lanier, which is the dammed up portion of the Chattahoochee River. And it goes on north into the mountains where the headwaters are. That is where this Chattahoochee Fish Hatchery is located.
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    Mr. REGULA. I am hopeful we can get the Chattahoochee taken care of. There is a population explosion that is taking place from Atlanta north, when you overfly it as we did, you really see it.

    Mr. DEAL. Yes. And it would take a little bit more pressure off of Lake Lanier, which is of course just about had all the pressure it can take in my district.

    Mr. REGULA. I understand that. Of course, the local community, both industry and local groups, are very, very forthcoming in support for it.

    Mr. DEAL. Right. Well, it is a beautiful river. And certainly, we lost a significant part of it when we dammed it up and formed Lake Lanier. But below the dam, the park you visited certainly needs to be preserved.

    Thank you very much.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.


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    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Chairman, Ben Gilman.

    Mr. GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. REGULA. I am still willing to offer you all the sovereign States that we have in this committee.

    Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to come before the subcommittee, and I thank you for your consideration. I am here with regard to a river in my area called the Upper Delaware. Joe McDade and I, back in the late 1970s, introduced a measure to make this a wild and scenic river. It is a beautiful river. Probably the last of the wild scenic rivers in the northeast. We have canoeists and boaters and fishermen come from all over the northeast.

    Mr. REGULA. Is it presently designated?

    Mr. GILMAN. Yes, it is designated.

    Mr. REGULA. You just need some money?

    Mr. GILMAN. I need some money for a tourist information center. They come from all over, but there is no information center. What we are asking for is sufficient funding to provide a decent tourist information center.
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    It is called the Mongaup Visitor Center. It contains——

    Mr. REGULA. Our expert here says it is some of the best fishing in the country.

    Mr. GILMAN. No question about it. Some of the best fishing is right in that area.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me ask you, Ben, are you talking about a visitor center, or are you just talking about a kiosk where people can get information?

    Mr. GILMAN. Not just a kiosk. It would be somewhat of a little museum, information center, but also provide good information and bring young people to the center, so that they would learn about it.

    Mr. REGULA. How much money are we talking about?

    Mr. GILMAN. I think it is $6.9 million for what is called the Mongaup Visitor Center for the Upper Delaware.

    Mr. REGULA. Could Pennsylvania come up with half of it?

    Mr. GILMAN. Do we have any contribution by Pennsylvania at all? We have been discussing it.
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    Mr. REGULA. The reason I ask is, we have not been building visitor centers simply because we are trying to take care of what we have with limited resources.

    Mr. GILMAN. Yes.

    Mr. REGULA. What I have tried to do on many of these projects is to leverage the money we have by saying, we will do half if the State and/or local community, or the private sector, will provide funding. You heard me talking about the Chattahoochee. In that case Coca-Cola and a couple of other big companies in Atlanta are going to put up about two-thirds of the cost of acquiring land.

    Mr. GILMAN. I think it would be worthwhile exploring that with the State. We did that, as you may recall, with the Sterling Forest project which you helped us with.

    Mr. REGULA. Are there any State facilities nearby? Or is this just a wild river, totally Federal?

    Mr. GILMAN. Open lands, totally Federal. No major State facility or Federal facility nearby. Adjoining it is Mark Twain's home there right alongside the river. That's an historic museum.

    Mr. REGULA. There is nothing there at the moment?

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    Mr. GILMAN. Nothing. I think there is a kiosk there, but a small, little kiosk.

    Mr. REGULA. This would be in the National Park Service. We need to talk with them, we need to see if they can scale back. $6.9 million is a pretty large amount.

    Mr. GILMAN. They have worked with this. There is no opposition, incidentally, in local government. Everyone supports it.

    But we certainly would welcome anything your good committee can do to help us. It is something they have been planning for years, and I know Joe McDade joins with us in the request.

    I would also like to add my support for the National Arts program. I have been a long time supporter, as you know, and I want to continue to support it.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your time.

    [The statement of Mr. Gilman follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

Wednesday, April 1, 1998.

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    Mr. REGULA. Okay. Mr. Hinchey. Hudson River Valley, this is a heritage corridor, right?

    Mr. HINCHEY. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, it certainly is. I feel very comfortable here today talking to you about American heritage areas. Because I know you to be someone who really appreciates these.

    We have, as you know, as a result of the law that was passed last year with your help, thank you very much, a number of these American heritage areas now around the country. I am here today to ask for an appropriation of $1.5 million for the American heritage area in the Hudson River Valley.

    Mr. REGULA. Do they have their match?

    Mr. HINCHEY. They will, yes. I believe they will.

    Mr. REGULA. I think we have a limit of a million a year on those. I am not sure, but I think the way the bill was structured, it was a million a year, provided there was a local match for a 10 year period.

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    Anyway, what you are requesting today would be the $1.5 million.

    Mr. HINCHEY. Yes. I am under the impression that that is within the—yes, I am told the request is well within the funding limits authorized for the Hudson Valley in that P.L. 104–333.

    Mr. REGULA. I assume that was the Omnibus Parks bill we passed some years back.

    Mr. HINCHEY. I believe it was, Mr. Chairman.

    The reason I feel comfortable in making this request at this time is that, because I do so in the knowledge that this money can be used very effectively, very appropriately, totally in consistence with the intention of the law, and can be used right away.

    The reason for that is, the American heritage area in the Hudson Valley overlays a pervious Hudson River Valley greenway. The management entity for the heritage area in the Hudson Valley is already in place. They are all set to go, and this is a program that can be up and running almost immediately.

    Mr. REGULA. Is this a greenway that follows the river?

    Mr. HINCHEY. Precisely.

    Mr. REGULA. How many miles is it?
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    Mr. HINCHEY. It is approximately 150 miles.

    Mr. REGULA. That is quite an extensive area, then.

    Mr. HINCHEY. Yes. It runs from the Westchester County New York City border, in other words, it begins just north of the city line, and from Westchester County north, on both sides of the river, and it goes as far as a Federal dam in Troy, which is just above Albany.

    So it may be 160 miles.

    Mr. REGULA. Is it bikeable? Part of it?

    Mr. HINCHEY. Yes, good parts of it are. There is a trail system that is in the development stage, under the auspices of the previous greenway. And they are developing trails and bikeways.

    Mr. REGULA. This in a sense is an expansion of what had been an existing greenway.

    Mr. HINCHEY. Well, it is a very healthy augmentation.

    Mr. REGULA. Okay.

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    Mr. HINCHEY. Yes. The geographical lines are exactly the same. It is overlaying the greenway. This was a greenway project, and this lies right over the greenway project. But of course, it does a great many other things beyond that, which the greenway was planning to do.

    There are a number of major historical sites, including the first national historic site in the country, Washington's headquarters, located in the City of Newburg, Atlanta, the church residence.

    Mr. REGULA. So this is far beyond the river, it is an expanded greenway.

    Mr. HINCHEY. Yes. It goes some distance on both sides of the river. It fluctuates as you go up, it is not completely uniform.

    [The statement of Mr. Hinchey follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. Okay, we will see. It depends on our allocation what we can do. As you can imagine, we have a lot of good projects. We are going to stretch our funds as far as we can.

    Mr. HINCHEY. I know you will, Mr. Chairman.

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    I appreciate it very much.


Wednesday, April 1, 1998.




    Mr. REGULA. Mr. Lazio, I think you are the one we have been waiting for.

    Mr. LAZIO. I want to thank you personally, frankly, for the work that you have done for the whole 602(b) area throughout your subcommittee, and what you do for us, a lot of hard decisions are made. Sometimes I know you have to say no. But I want to ask that you say yes on a particular program, one that we have talked about privately for several years. It is the National Endowment for the Arts.

    If I can, I want to begin by just thanking you for the efforts, for the changes that have been made in those programs. We desperately need an authorization program, but I think within the confines of appropriations. Last year, the changes that you made went a long way toward building confidence.
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    Mr. REGULA. I believe that is true, Rick, from everything I can ascertain. We have our colleagues down there. We have expanded the program to do a lot more outreach and try and avoid the egregious kinds of things that created difficulty in the past.

    Mr. LAZIO. I want to thank you for that. There has been a tremendous increase in the amount of arts activity throughout the Nation. Just to sort of summarize, I think some of these are interesting. Since 1965, the number of professional non-profit theaters have grown from 56 to over 425. Large orchestras have increased from 100 to over 230. Opera companies from 27 to over 120, here in our own backyard in Washington, the purchase of the old Woodies building for a new opera center I think has had incredible attention.

    Dance companies from 37 to over 400. Throughout a lot of small towns in America, countless small chamber orchestras and choral groups, museums, art centers, cultural festivals, have sprung up. People are looking at them not just in terms of the quality of life issue, but as a way of bringing people together to build a better sense of community.

    We have proven the fact that there is a very significant economic accelerator that occurs as a result of the arts spending.

    As you know, as a result of your work, about 7.5 percent of all NEA arts funding now is dedicated to help develop arts programming in undeserved areas. That has specifically helped us, I think, reach the outcome of this broad based pluralistic effort in terms of the arts.

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    In my home State arts provide about 175,000 jobs. It is one of the reasons why Governor George Pataki is such a big supporter of public funding for the arts. Non-profit arts organizations alone have an economic impact of nearly $4.1 billion. Although I do not have it here, I think the spinoff in terms of tax receipts is somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 million, very significant.

    One of the things I want to mention is the fact that one of the more promising innovations in reaching out to every community and for the NEA not to be perceived as elitist or focused on big cities like New York or Washington, is a new program called ArtsREACH. It was designed to improve the geographic distribution of NEA grants to States which are historically undeserved. The program will provide direct planning and technical assistance grants to communities in targeted States to create coalitions of cultural organizations, and help local government and community arts organizations work together to ensure that the arts are an integral part of achieving the community's goals.

    ArtsREACH will help local artists and civic leaders to use the arts to build stronger communities, help artists and art organizations become more involved in communities, and strengthen arts education programs.

    These kinds of programs I would say, Mr. Chairman, are the ones that will have the most meaning on small towns and communities throughout America. There are many areas that have significant resources and can support the large orchestras, the large ballet groups, the large opera house.

    Mr. REGULA. That is the reason we reduced the maximum funding to any State. I found a ballet company composed of all volunteers. I said, why don't you apply for a grant. They said the rules are that if they are not professional, they do not get any money. We changed that.
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    Mr. LAZIO. I want to acknowledge the fact that your hard work to try and build confidence and to have a more equitable distribution in lowering the State block grant formula by 5 percent, placed a 15 percent cap on the collective amount any one State could receive, while in New York that probably does not inordinately——

    Mr. REGULA. We excluded the national organizations from the cap.

    Mr. LAZIO. Exactly. Which I think was a very thoughtful approach. At the same time, even coming from New York, I think the net effect is that it gets out to the grass roots, the small towns, the communities. And that is exactly the communities that are least likely to have exposure to the fine and performing arts, and makes a real difference.

    So I would ask you to build on your great work that you have done, the reforms you have made.

    Mr. REGULA. Let me ask you to do something. Talk to some of our colleagues.

    Mr. LAZIO. I will. I will be speaking to them. I want them to appreciate the fact that these changes have been made. We are seeing the effects of them, and you have put a lot of hard work into this program. It would be appropriate, and is supported by both sides of the aisle, that we step up to the plate and have a commitment to public funding for the arts.
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    [The statement of Mr. Lazio follows:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."

    Mr. REGULA. You are aware of where some of the opposition lies.

    Mr. LAZIO. I have the scars and bruises to prove it, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for your personal commitment.

    Mr. REGULA. Thank you. The committee is adjourned.

    [COMMITTEE NOTE.—Several Members of Congress were unable to attend the hearing to present their statement. The statements follow:]

    "The Official Committee record contains additional material here."