Segment 2 Of 4 Previous Hearing Segment(1) Next Hearing Segment(3)
SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
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Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document a number of pages long. The first page of this document is marked DNC 1592550, and it's titled: DNC Presidential Birthday Celebration, Sumner Wells Estate, Fort Washington, Maryland, August 2nd 1994.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you prepare this list of attendees?
Answer. It looks like something I would have prepared. I'm not sure if it came from my documents or not.
Question. Page 2 of this document indicates that—or at least it states next to Mr. Trie's name, FOB/Managing Trustee. What does FOB mean?
Answer. FOB is a term that, broken out, means Friend of Bill.
Question. Was there a list of individuals who were categorized by the DNC as FOB?
Answer. Not that I am aware of. A physical list that listed all FOBs? No.
Question. What does this—what does this term mean, aside from the literal designation, Friend of Bill? Does it have a particular significance in the DNC?
Answer. Not that I'm aware of, except for the association and leads to Arkansas and the Clintons.
Question. How were you aware—backing up. Were you aware at the time of this—the preparation of this memorandum in August of 1994 that Mr. Trie was a Friend of Bill?
Answer. I presume I was, especially if I prepared the document and listed him as an FOB.
Question. And how did you—how did you know that?
Answer. I don't recall. I believe it was general knowledge, and I don't have any specific recollection of somebody telling me or how I picked it up, whether from him or others or——
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Question. Prior to the preparation of this document—or at least prior to this date, August 2nd, 1994—had you ever seen Mr. Trie conversing with President Clinton?
Answer. No, I had not.
Question. Had you ever seen Mr. Trie in the company of President Clinton?
Answer. No. I don't recall even during the '94 gala whether I even saw Mr. Trie sitting with President Clinton. I can't say that I did.
Mr. WILSON. This document's been marked exhibit DM–10 and submitted for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–10 was marked for identification.]
Mr. WILSON. I've provided the witness a document which is numbered DNC 0896231, and it is—appears to be a list. It's titled: Presidential Birthday Celebration, August 2nd, 1994; and it states at the top, this is Chairman David Wilhelm's table.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Trie sat at Chairman Wilhelm's table at this fund-raiser?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Underneath Mr. Trie's name in brackets is the name Charlie Chang. Do you know an individual named Charlie Chang?
Answer. I believe I met Charlie Chang once, and if my memory serves me he is an owner of a restaurant or restaurants in the tri-State area.
Question. When did you meet Mr. Chang?
Answer. It could have been at this event. It could have—I'm not sure when I met him.
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Question. Do you know whether Mr. Chang attended other DNC events with Mr. Trie?
Answer. To the best of my recollection, I don't recall him being in other events, but I can't be sure of that.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked exhibit DM–11 and submitted for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–11 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know a Mr. Ernest Green?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. When did you first meet Mr. Green?
Answer. Probably in 1993 or it could have been in the '92 election, but I'm not sure.
Question. Do you have a recollection as to where you first met Mr. Green?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know an individual named Jude Kearney?
Answer. I believe that last week I stated that I did know Mr. Kearney.
Question. Do you recall when you first met Mr. Kearney?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know whether you have ever attended any DNC events with Mr. Kearney?
Mr. REED. Pardon me. Was he present at any DNC events with Mr. Kearney or did he go with Mr. Kearney?
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
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Question. Whether you were present with Mr. Kearney at any DNC events?
Answer. It's possible, but I don't recall any specific occasion when we were at DNC events together.
Question. Do you recall whether you attended a breakfast with Mr. Green, Mr. Kearney, Charlie Trie and Ng Lap Seng at the Hay-Adams Hotel in October of 1994?
Mr. REED. Is that Kearney, Green, Mr. Wu?
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Charlie Trie and Mr. Wu at the Hay-Adams in October of 1994?
Answer. I don't believe I did, but it is quite possible, and it's the first I'm hearing of it.
Question. Do you have any recollection of attending any non-DNC events with Mr. Green, Mr. Carney and Mr. Trie in attendance at the same time?
Mr. REED. Just for clarification, what do you mean by ''non-DNC events''?
Mr. WILSON. Any event that did not have a DNC sponsorship, a nonfund-raiser event.
The WITNESS. Not that I can recall out of the blue, no.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall whether you organized a breakfast or any event for just Mr. Kearney Mr. Trie and Mr. Wu?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Do you know Allen Weinstein?
Answer. Yes, I do.
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Question. Who is Mr. Weinstein?
Answer. I believe he's the chair or director of the Center for Democracy that deals with Russia, China, on economic development issues and other things, that has on its board everybody from Newt Gingrich to senators and whomever else.
Question. Do you know an individual named Nancy Jacobson?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. And who is Nancy Jacobson?
Answer. She is a former DNC employee.
Question. Do you know what her current occupation is?
Answer. I believe she's a consultant.
Question. Is Ms. Jacobson associated with the Center for Democracy?
Answer. I believe—I don't know what that association is. I know she knows Allen, but I don't know what her association is.
Question. Do you know the tax status of the Center for Democracy?
Answer. No, I do not.
Mr. WILSON. I've provided the witness a document which is marked DNC 1588002. It is a memorandum to Allen Weinstein and Nancy Jacobson from David Mercer dated March 20, 1995.
If you could take a moment just to review this.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. This document states that attached is a check for $10,000 from Charlie Trie to the Center for Democracy. Did you request Mr. Trie to make this contribution?
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Answer. I believe I set up a meeting with him and Allen Weinstein to talk about the activities and the goals of the Center for Democracy; and, subsequently, Charlie made a contribution of $10,000 to the organization.
Question. Why did you set up this meeting?
Answer. Because I thought—one, Nancy Jacobson had brought it to my attention; and, secondly, I thought that Charlie and Mr. Weinstein would have mutual interests for them to discuss and for them to take it from there.
Question. Had Mr. Weinstein ever mentioned the Center for Democracy to you prior to your setting up this meeting?
Answer. We may have had a discussion subsequent to my discussion with Nancy Jacobson, but—and preceding the meeting.
Question. Do you recall whether in conversations prior to the meeting you have described whether you discussed the activities of the Center for Democracy with Mr. Trie?
Answer. I believe I probably did discuss the activities with Mr. Trie in a summary fashion to brief him on the nature of the meeting, but I don't recall the specifics of the discussion.
Question. Do you recall whether you solicited any other contributions for the Center for Democracy?
Answer. I don't believe—I may have, but I don't know—I don't believe anybody else had actually made a contribution to the Center.
Question. In the memorandum we are examining now it states, I trust you will keep Charlie abreast of the Center's events and functions.
Do you know whether the Center did continue to keep Mr. Trie informed of the Center's events and functions?
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Answer. I am not aware of whether they did or not.
Question. Did you ever attend any Center for Democracy events?
Answer. I don't believe I have, no.
Question. Do you recall when the meeting between Mr. Trie and Mr. Weinstein took place?
Answer. Do I remember when?
Question. Correct.
Answer. I would assume it's in the time span of around March 20th, 1995, but I'm not altogether sure.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Trie attended any events that were organized or sponsored by the Center for Democracy?
Answer. I don't know that.
Mr. WILSON. I'll mark this document exhibit DM–12 for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–12 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you set up a meeting between Charlie Trie, Winston Wang and Chairman Fowler in June of 1995?
Answer. I probably could have or did, but I don't have a specific recollection of it.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document which has been marked F 0017611, titled: Meeting with Charlie Trie, President of Daihatsun International Trading, and Winston Wang, President of Formosa Plastics Corporation.
This document has three pages as submitted or appears that page 1 and 2 are copies of each other, although they are Bates marked differently, and the third page is a briefing memorandum for Chairman Fowler.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether you prepared this document?
Answer. I did not prepare the first two pages. I could have prepared, but I'm not altogether sure, the third page. But I don't—actually, I don't—I may have on the third page. I'm not sure, though.
Question. Have you ever met Mr. Winston Wang?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. And where did you first meet Mr. Wang?
Answer. I believe it was at the DNC, outside the DNC, you know, outside the building, before he came in is when I believe I met him.
Question. Was this at roughly the same time as the meeting described between Mr. Trie and Mr. Wang and Chairman Fowler?
Answer. I would assume it was, but I don't have, you know, the sequence of events in my mind.
Question. Had you met Mr. Wang at any time before this meeting between Charlie Trie, Mr. Wang and Chairman Fowler was suggested or envisioned?
Answer. I may have seen him prior to. I have a vague recollection of seeing him before he went to a White House coffee.
Question. The third page of the memorandum that we are reviewing contains some background information and a one-sentence purpose section. Is this information that you recall knowing in advance of the meeting between Chairman Fowler, Charlie Trie and Winston Wang?
Answer. It seems accurate information from what I understood Winston Wang's summary background to be.
Question. Do you know where this information was obtained?
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Answer. I don't know if it was obtained through Charlie or over the phone. I'm not sure.
Question. Do you recall having had any telephone conversations with Mr. Wang prior to the meeting discussed in this memorandum?
Answer. I don't believe I did.
Question. Do you recall having telephone conversations with Mr. Trie about Mr. Wang prior to the meeting envisioned in this memorandum?
Answer. I don't recall specifically having conversations, but I'm sure we did as we were introduced to Mr. Wang through Charlie Trie.
Question. Did you request Mr. Wang make a contribution to the DNC?
Answer. I don't think that I communicated with Mr. Wang regarding contributions.
Question. Do you know who invited Mr. Wang to the presidential coffee that is referred to on the first page of the three pages I've given you?
Answer. I believe Charlie had made arrangements for that to happen. Whether it was me including him on a list of suggested people to participate and that list being the list that was eventually approved for the attendees to attend the coffee——
Question. Did Mr. Trie first make this request to you?
Answer. I don't know what the sequence of that was, whether he spoke to anybody before me or after me. But I'm sure that he communicated to me and I communicated to Richard Sullivan—or I guess, if this is '95, it would be to Richard Sullivan, I presume, yeah.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Wang made any contributions in connection with the presidential coffee that he attended?
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Answer. I don't believe he did, but I don't know that for a fact.
Question. Did you attend the meeting that's described in the memorandum I've given you, the meeting between Mr. Trie, Mr. Wang and Mr. Fowler?
Answer. I believe I did, yes; but I am not altogether sure.
Question. Do you recall any discussions at meetings between Mr. Trie, Mr. Wang, Mr. Fowler and yourself?
Answer. I believe to the best of my recollection is that the meeting was maybe 5-minutes long as Mr. Fowler was rushed to go to a luncheon or another appointment and that it was a very brief exchange of pleasantries, and I'm not even sure there was an actual sit-down at the table.
Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Trie or Mr. Wang made any requests for assistance in meeting government employees?
Answer. I do not recall that ever being mentioned.
Question. Did you have any contact with Mr. Wang after this meeting?
Answer. I believe walking him out—walking him out with Mr. Trie, escorting him to the elevator.
Question. Did you have any subsequent telephone conversations with Mr. Wang?
Answer. I don't believe I did, no.
Question. Do you recall whether you met him any time after this meeting described in the document we've been reviewing?
Answer. Well, I know that I met him the morning of the coffee, but I don't recall meeting him—and then maybe they came by the DNC. I have a brief recollection of them coming by the DNC and seeing them outside the building, asking them how it went and then them getting in a cab and going off from the DNC.
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Question. And when you say ''them,'' to whom are you referring?
Answer. Charlie and Winston Wang.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–13.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–13 was marked for identification.]
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document that's been marked DNC 1587663. It is a memorandum to Ari Swiller from Mr. Mercer dated June 19, 1995.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. This memorandum contains personal information for four individuals. Do you recall preparing this memorandum?
Answer. I don't recall preparing it, but I know the names on the—on the memorandum listed.
Question. Do you recall why you prepared this memorandum?
Mr. REED. I think the testimony was that he didn't recall that he had prepared the memorandum.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. I apologize. Do you have any knowledge of why the four individuals are grouped together in this memorandum?
Answer. Being that they are probably trustees, Ari Swiller being the trustee director, and informing him of, you know, the fact that these trustees may be participating in the event; and it could have been the coffee of 6/21, but I'm not sure.
Question. Do you know who Mr. George Marcus is?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Who is Mr. Marcus?
Answer. Mr. Marcus is the partner—founding partner of Marcus & Milichap, which is a real estate company in Sacramento or San Francisco, California, or in that area.
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Question. And do you know Mr. Mark Dayton?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Who is Mr. Dayton?
Answer. Mr. Dayton is an investment banker—I believe Vermillion Investments from Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Mr. WILSON. This memorandum is marked exhibit DM–14.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–14 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall whether you solicited contributions from Mr. Marcus?
Answer. I believe, yes, I have.
Question. Do you recall whether you solicited contributions from Mr. Dayton?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document which has been marked DNC 1612853. It has a title: Memorandum for Charlie Trie. It's from Mr. Mercer, dated October 16, 1995.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Trie setting up an organization called Democrats Abroad in Taiwan?
Answer. I discussed with Mr. Trie in response to his inquiry as to whether a chapter or operation of Democrats Abroad existed in Taiwan.
Question. Did Mr. Trie first mention to you the existence of Democrats Abroad in Taiwan?
Answer. I believe, as based on this memo, that I'm informing Mr. Trie, based on my inquiries, that there currently already existed a chapter in Taiwan of Democrats Abroad.
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Question. And do you recall why you provided this information to Mr. Trie?
Answer. It was standard request. I would get requests like that before—did we have one in France? And all over the world, we have chapters. And he asked the question; and I made the inquiry and found out, even for myself, making me more educated about where Democrats Abroad resided, that there was, in fact, a chapter in Taiwan.
Mr. YEAGER. Could I just interject here? Is it your understanding that Democrats Abroad is—whether the various chapters are affiliated with the DNC formally?
The WITNESS. I believe that would be more in name than in practice or any other kind of relationship that would exist. And I believe they operate under their own bylaws, but I'm not altogether sure.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Trie specifically asked you about the organization, Democrats Abroad, or whether he just asked you whether there was an organization in Taiwan that he might support or be able to direct others to support?
Answer. I believe he asked me if there was Democrats Abroad in Taiwan. And I mean that's my recollection from this memo.
Question. Is it fair to say then that your recollection is that Mr. Trie actually asked you about the Democrats Abroad organization initially?
Answer. I can't say for sure; but, based on my response in the memo, I would assume that that was the inquiry.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Trie did open a chapter of Democrats Abroad in Taiwan?
Answer. Well, I believe that there already existed a chapter. How he may have related to that chapter and the contact, Tammy Turner, I do not know; nor have I heard of any subsequent follow-up to the memo.
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Question. Did he ever discuss with you organizations of Democrats outside of the United States after the date of this memo?
Answer. Not that I can recall.
Question. Did Mr. Trie or Mr. Green ever contact you about a trip that they were planning to take to Hong Kong in October of 1995?
Answer. Not specifically. I may have known that they were traveling to Hong Kong or whatever; but I don't—I don't recall, other than there being a dinner in Hong Kong that I was informed about, with Eric Hotung serving as a host and Ron Brown attending. But I don't know what year that was or I don't recall what year that was or when it was, but I have a recollection of knowing about that.
Question. Do you recall who told you about the dinner?
Answer. Could have been Kathy Hoffman. It could have been Charlie Trie or it could have been Ernie Green, but I don't know. I don't recall.
Question. Do you recall whether you were asked for any assistance to help either Mr. Green or Mr. Trie attend the dinner you have described with Mr. Brown and Mr. Hotung?
Answer. No, I wasn't because I had nothing to do with it.
Question. Did you become aware after the dinner you have described that one of Mr. Trie's colleagues, Antonio Pan, solicited contributions at that dinner?
Answer. I had no—I did not know that he did that.
Mr. WILSON. This document's been marked exhibit DM–15 and submitted for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–15 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you organize a fund-raiser on November 8 in 1995 at the Car Barn in Washington, D.C.?
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Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. Do you recall who initially had the idea for this fund-raising event?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you recall whether this was a fund-raiser that the DNC initially sponsored or did somebody come to you with the idea of hosting—of having a fund-raiser at the Car Barn?
Answer. We customarily or usually have at least one African-American event a year; and we also—of course, African-Americans contribute to other events throughout the year. But, traditionally, there is an African-American event; and I believe that this was the African-American event for the 1995 calendar year.
Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Trie and Mr. Green were sponsors of this event?
Answer. They may have been. I don't know if they were sponsors. They may have been chairs or they may have been active in the success of the event.
Question. Do you recall how much money this event was targeted to raise?
Answer. I don't know—between 250 and half a million dollars.
Question. Do you know how much the event actually did raise?
Answer. I don't have a recollection, but it was slow, and I think it was about—it may have been about 2-something or I think we eventually closed it out at $600,000 in November or December of that year.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Trie attended this event?
Answer. Yes, I believe he did, yes.
Question. Do you know how many guests Mr. Trie took to the event?
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Answer. A boatload.
Question. Approximately how many would you think?
Answer. It looked to me anywhere from 10 to 12, something in that neighborhood.
Question. Were photographs taken at this event?
Answer. Yes, they were.
Question. Do you know who was in charge of distributing the photographs after the event?
Answer. No, I don't.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document that's been numbered F 0046082. It is a memorandum from a Maura McManimon to Mr. Mercer, and it's about proof of photos.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. The memo refers to proof photos that were pulled by Ernie and Phyllis Green. Do you know what this memo means?
Answer. Yep. I think I pulled it from my files for you—and others; and it's Maura, who was our events coordinator, informing me that Ernie and Phyllis—and I'm not sure if it was both or one or the other—pulled photos from October, or whatever event it was, for their handling.
Question. Do you know how Mr. or Mrs. Green, Ernie and Phyllis Green, viewed these photographs?
Answer. How they——
Question. How they viewed the photographs? Do you know whether they came into your office to view these photographs?
Mr. REED. David's personal office?
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Mr. WILSON. Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. I'll follow up with other questions, but did they come to your personal office?
Answer. No they didn't. As the memo is indicating, I'm being informed by a third party as to what transpired. So I was not aware of when they came in, if they came in, if they just over the phone pulled those numbers in conjunction with Maura, and they were delivered. I don't know what the logistics of that were relative to your question.
Question. Do you know whether Ernie or Phyllis Green wanted these photographs for themselves?
Answer. I am not aware of that.
Question. There are a number of individuals listed in this memorandum who had their photographs taken with either the President or Secretary Ron Brown. Do you know if the individuals who are listed as having their photographs taken with either Secretary Brown or the President were invited by Charlie Trie to this event, to the Car Barn event?
Answer. I am assuming that is the case, but I do not know for a fact who invited them.
Question. Do you know whether the individuals that are listed in this memo were all contributors to the DNC?
Answer. At the time, did I know if they were contributors or——
Question. Do you know now?
Answer. Well, I see Celia Chau, and I only know from my deposition time at the Senate that she is or was a contributor, and I don't recognize the other names. And at the time of the event and seeing a Chinese—or Asian, I should say—Asian Pacific American group, I did not know at that time who was a contributor or who was not a contributor.
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Question. If we could just go down very quickly through this memorandum and if you could tell me whether you recognize the name as contributors to the DNC or whether you don't recognize them as contributors?
Answer. May I add—it may be more helpful to first let you know whether I know them at all first, as opposed to whether I know them and know them to be contributors.
Question. Actually, if you would do that, that would be quite helpful.
Answer. I do not know 009. I don't know 025.
Mr. REED. Just for the record, David's referring to the photograph numbers that accompany descriptions with names.
The WITNESS. And the purpose for the number is because the pronunciation of the names is difficult.
Mr. REED. Making our court reporter go completely insane.
The WITNESS. 025, I do not know. 026, I don't know. 027, I don't know. I do know 044. I don't know other than Charlie Trie and Don Fowler, 045. I do know 046, 047. 052, I know Phyllis Green. I know 055. 069, I do; and unless Pan in 069 is Antonio Pan, I don't know Yan Sheng Pan.
070, I do not know. I don't know 071, exempt for Lap Seng Ng, which I believe is Mr. Wu. 094, I don't know. Terry Boyd I don't believe is part of this group and may be an African-American donor, but I'm not altogether sure.
098, I do not know. I do not know 099, nor 100, nor 101, nor 102, nor 103. 104, I don't know Celia Chau, but I've been presented with check copies, tracking forms, whatever. 163 is Kellee Baker, who I do not know. I do not know 164, nor 168. And 169, I know Ernie Green and President Clinton, or I'm aware of them. 170, President Clinton but not the Asian delegation. 171, Clinton, Secretary Brown I do know.
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176, I don't know. 191, I don't know the reference to audience photo. 196 is the President approaching the podium. 206, I know Lap Seng Ng, being Mr. Wu. I don't know the other party. And then 221, 223, 224, 225, 226, I know the parties identified there.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall ever asking Mr. Trie at the Car Barn fund-raiser who any of the individuals that he had brought as guests were?
Answer. I don't believe I did.
Question. Do you recall speaking with any of the individuals listed in this memorandum?
Answer. Aside from maybe directing them as to moving from a photo line to the luncheon room or something of that sort, no.
Question. After the Car Barn fund-raiser took place, do you recall having had any discussions with Mr. Green about the amounts of money raised in conjunction with the event?
Answer. I believe with most people, including Mr. Green, that I had discussions about closing out the event and collecting checks, as would be customary for anything that you received at the door; and I tried to get the remainder of it afterwards.
Question. Did Mr. Green convey to you any checks in conjunction with this event after the event?
Answer. He may have, but I don't recall specifically.
Mr. WILSON. This document may be marked DM–16 and submitted for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–16 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with Charlie Trie about an individual named Wang Jun attending a presidential coffee?
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Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. What was the substance of the first conversation you had with Mr. Trie about Wang Jun attending a presidential coffee?
Mr. REED. I'm going to object to the form, because there was no indication that there were more than one.
The WITNESS. As I can best recall, generally speaking, that Charlie was interested in having guests accompany him to an event, coffee, whatever it may be, that when we learned of his schedule and what schedule of events we had, I believe the February coffee was mentioned.
He asked if he would be able to bring a certain number of guests. I don't know if that was two or three or whatever. I remember telling him that, given the size of those events, that I thought it highly unlikely. I said I could check on the invitation of one additional guest, but that would be the best-case scenario in response to his request.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did Mr. Trie tell you why he wanted Wang Jun to attend the presidential coffee?
Answer. I don't recall him ever telling me a specific motivation, other than having him as a guest attending the coffee.
Question. Did Mr. Trie describe to you who Wang Jun is?
Answer. He probably briefly told me who he was, and believe subsequently that I had requested a bio and information with—or on Mr. Wang Jun. Because, as anything in Washington, to respond to any requests it needs to be on paper. So I was anticipating that and secured a bio and the information necessary to get an answer on whether or not he would be invited.
Question. Who did you ask for the bio?
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Answer. I believe I asked Charlie Trie.
Question. And did he—did he provide you with a bio of Mr. Wang Jun?
Answer. Yes, he did.
Question. Did you forward Mr. Trie's request to be accompanied to the coffee by Mr. Wang Jun to anybody else?
Answer. To anybody else?
Question. To anybody at the DNC or the White House.
Answer. Richard Sullivan.
Question. Did you, apart from the bio that you mentioned a moment ago about—on Mr. Wang Jun, did you make any other inquiries about Mr. Wang Jun's background?
Answer. I believe I indicated his passport number, the basic information you would need to submit a name for attendance at a coffee in lieu of a social security number. I got a passport number and the date of birth.
Question. Do you know who made the final decision to include Mr. Wang Jun in the coffee?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Did you ever discuss Wang Jun's attendance at the February 1996 coffee with Mr. Green, Ernest Green?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you recall whether you solicited a check for $50,000 from Mr. Green in February of 1996?
Answer. I do not specifically recall soliciting a check for 50,000 from Mr. Green.
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Question. Do you recall Mr. Green making any contributions in the first half of 1996 to the DNC?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. And do you recall anything specifically about that contribution or contributions?
Answer. That it was a $50,000 contribution. It's been listed as a 20- and $30,000 contribution respectively, which is just the Federal amount, Federal split. But it was one check from the Greens that was given to us around the time of February, and in and around that time of the coffee.
Question. Did they tell you what the contribution was for?
Answer. Not that I can recall, no.
Question. Do you recall meeting with Mr. Green for a breakfast on the morning of February 6th of 1996?
Answer. I could have, but I don't recall meeting him that morning, no.
Question. Did you—did you meet with Mr. Green for breakfast on more than one occasion in your recollection?
Answer. I have—I worked closely with Mr. Green. And over the 4 years that I've been at the DNC, I'm sure we've had breakfasts, lunch, and dinners.
Question. Do you recall when and where Mr. Green gave you the $50,000 contribution for the DNC?
Mr. YEAGER. Objection. I don't believe he testified that anyone gave him the—that Ernie Green gave him the check.
Mr. WILSON. Fair enough.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did—did Mr. Green give to you a contribution in the first half of 1996?
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Mr. REED. You mean to David personally?
Mr. WILSON. To Mr. Mercer personally.
The WITNESS. Not that I recall him giving me the check that we're referencing, him giving it to me directly, no.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall the circumstances of Mr. Green making the contribution of $50,000 in the first half of 1996?
Answer. I believe it came in from Mr. Trie, but I don't have specifics of how the check was gotten to us into the office, whether he delivered it or—I just don't recall that. But I believe it came from Mr. Charlie Trie.
Question. And why do you believe that?
Answer. Because I just have a vague recollection of that.
Question. Do you have a recollection of any of the other surrounding circumstances of the contribution? Do you know who Mr. Trie gave the check to?
Answer. I don't, other than he could have given it to me, but I don't recall specifically if he did give it to me.
Question. Do you recall whether there was an indication of where the—the check should be credited to in terms of its fund-raising designation?
Answer. I was given no indication by anybody externally as to how the check should be designated. That's more of an internal departmental decision-making based on the events that were active or that are open. And I would assume that it's the finance director's discretion as to what money gets credited where and how and when. But I got no direction internally—I mean externally as to how that should be credited.
Question. Did the—did the finance director make all the decisions as to where monies would be credited?
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Answer. I think he was a part of the decision-making. Who else was involved, you would have to ask the finance director. And who he relied on or what other judgment calls he made in making that decision, I do not know.
Question. Were you ever involved in that decision-making process?
Answer. I may indicate for what my purposes and reasons may be for indicating where a check should be allocated to. That does not mean that that happens or was approved or that it didn't go elsewhere.
Question. Do you recall having had any discussions with Mr. Green about any White House coffees?
Answer. I may have. And you know, whether he was invited to a coffee, I'm not even sure that he did, at least under the auspices of the DNC. But I may have, but I don't have a specific recollection of—on any one occasion calling him and inviting him to a coffee.
Question. Do you know whether the check from Mr. Green was ultimately credited to a coffee?
Answer. I believe it was, which, of course, has caused a lot of confusion.
Question. And when did you first learn that?
Answer. When did I—I may have even put it down as the coffee on the tracking form as a reference point, but had—you know, it could have been attributed to any other event that may have been open. I don't know, but I believe that that's what, in fact, happened.
Question. Do you recall whether you ever credited any other checks, at least designated them, to a coffee for keeping track of them in fund-raising?
Answer. I mean, I don't recall specifically, but it's possible. And I've seen other documents that—of—or at least I saw just recently a check that I had solicited that somebody else wrote in—not my handwriting—but somebody else had wrote in for a coffee.
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Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Trie contacted you after the February 6th, 1996 Presidential coffee and spoke with you about the coffee?
Answer. He may have, but I don't have a recollection of him doing that. Excuse me.
Question. Do you know whether photographs were taken at that coffee?
Answer. I believe photographs are taken at most coffees, but I don't know if photographs were taken at that coffee. I'm not sure.
Question. Do you know whether you received any requests for photographs that would have been taken in conjunction with the February 1996—February 6, 1996, Presidential coffee?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Do you recall whether you ever asked anybody at the DNC to locate photographs that included Mr. Wang Jun at the February 6 Presidential coffee?
Answer. I may have, but I don't have a recollection of that.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document which appears to be handwritten notes. It's been marked F 0011427.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know what these notes refer to?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Do you know whose handwriting this is?
Answer. I have no idea.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked Exhibit DM–17 and submitted for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–17 was marked for identification.]
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. During the summer of 1996, did Mr. Trie ever contact you in respect of the Democratic national convention in Chicago?
Answer. Oh I'm sure he did.
Question. Do you remember whether he made any requests of you?
Answer. As probably a thousand other donors did, yes.
Question. Did Mr. Trie contact you about anything involving the summer Olympics in 1996?
Answer. I believe yes, he did.
Question. And do you remember what he contacted you about?
Answer. Yeah, how one would maybe attend the summer Olympics.
Question. And do you know whether he did, in fact, attend the Olympics?
Answer. I don't believe he did.
Question. Between a 1995 and 1996, approximately how many times did Mr. Trie or one of his employees or colleagues contact you?
Answer. I can't put a number to that. I will say that, while there were a lot of voice mail messages and phone tag and what have you, that—I mean, in my mind I recall either seeing Charlie or talking with Charlie maybe 20 times over the 2 years, if that's even accurate.
Question. Did you ever attend parties at Mr. Trie's Watergate apartment?
Answer. I attended a gathering to watch the opening of the special—of the Olympics one evening at Charlie's house or apartment.
Question. And when you refer to Olympics, are you referring to the summer of 1996 Olympics?
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Answer. I believe I am, yes.
Question. Did you attend any other parties at Mr. Trie's apartment?
Answer. I attended no other gatherings, as I would classify it, at his apartment.
Question. Did you ever visit his apartment on any other occasion than the one you described involving the summer Olympics?
Answer. Probably two or three times, yes.
Question. And why did you visit his apartment on those occasions?
Answer. Either to drop off invites or to drop off a souvenir pen or those kinds of things.
Question. And why did you visit the apartment to drop off the invitations or pens?
Answer. Well, I think one—first off, I think it's—let me clarify that. I think the apartment was used as an office, and it was like any other responsiveness to other donors where I might have to drop off invitations or drop off a souvenir or whatever or meet with them at their offices as opposed to them coming to the DNC, which they also did. So it was not unusual for me to go by his office, if you will, on those occasions.
Question. When you attended—when you went to Mr. Trie's apartment in conjunction with the summer 1996 Olympics, were any other DNC employees there at the same time that you were there?
Answer. I believe Lottie Shackleford, to the best of my recollection, was the only other DNC individual there.
Question. Do you know of any other DNC employees that were there at a time when you were not there?
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Answer. Not—no. I don't.
Question. Did——
Answer. Let me—you just—just refreshed my memory that Susan Lavine could have been there. I have a vague recollection of her being there, but I'm not sure.
Mr. REED. Is this in reference to the gathering?
The WITNESS. It's in reference to the gathering for the opening ceremonies for the Olympics.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know of any White House personnel visiting Mr. Trie's apartment?
Answer. No, other than if you're getting to Mark Middleton being there. Mark Middleton was there, but I don't believe at the time that he was working for the White House.
Question. Is it your belief that Mr. Middleton visited Mr. Trie's apartment, but only after the time that he had left the White House?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Were you ever invited to attend any other parties at Mr. Trie's or any—were you ever invited to attend any function at Mr. Trie's apartment?
Answer. My—you see, my recollection—because I never even thought about it in passing, but I was shown a call sheet in the Senate where there was an indication that Antonio Pan had called and invited me to another function, which I did not attend, nor did I recall it at the time, nor do I have any recollection of it now.
Question. Do you recall what the event was supposed to be about?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Did you ever ask Antonio Pan for contributions to the DNC?
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Answer. I do not believe that I did, although it could have been of a follow-up of a question or an issue that I had discussed with Charlie, but I doubt it.
Question. Did anyone ever contact you on behalf of Mr. Trie to arrange tours of the White House?
Answer. Not that I am—not that I recall.
Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Trie ever asked you to organize a private tour of the White House for him or for anybody else?
Answer. I don't recall that, but I know that there is paper where I make a request and hand that in, but I don't recall doing that. And I don't know what the nature of the tour was or who was on it.
Question. Did you ever arrange for Mr. Trie to use the White House Mess for the purpose of eating a meal there?
Answer. Not that I recall, and I don't believe I did.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Trie was invited to use the President's box at the Kennedy Center?
Answer. Could you repeat the question?
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Trie was invited to use the President's box at the Kennedy Center?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Do you know whether the DNC ever paid for a cellular phone that was used by Charlie Trie?
Answer. Not that I'm aware of, no.
Question. Did you ever arrange for Mr. Trie to meet administration officials?
Answer. Not that I can recall.
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Question. Did you ever provide an introduction for him to meet any government employees?
Answer. I could have, but I don't recall my doing so.
Question. Did Mr. Trie ever discuss his desire to be appointed to a Federal commission or board with you?
Answer. He, I believe, but I don't have a specific recollection of this, that he had shared with me that he was being appointed to a board and commission.
Question. Do you know whether he discussed his desire to be appointed to a board or commission in advance of the communication you just referred to?
Answer. I was not aware of his being appointed to that board, nor did I have anything, I believe, to do with his being appointed to that board or commission.
Question. Do you know Phyllis Jones?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Who is Phyllis Jones?
Answer. She's a political appointee at the Department—or, excuse me, the United States Trade Representative.
Question. When did you first meet Ms. Jones?
Answer. I don't recall. I do believe meeting her for lunch at the Old Ebbitt Grill, I don't know—recall the date, but most of our conferences took place over the phone.
Question. What year did you first either meet or have a conversation with Ms. Jones?
Answer. I don't know if it was '95, '96. I tend to lean towards '96, but I don't recall.
Question. Do you recall whether you ever discussed DNC donors with Ms. Jones?
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Answer. I responded to Ms. Jones' request for the names and information on businesses that would be pooled, and it was part of her outreach to find different businesses to consider for appointments or recommendations for appointments.
Question. Did she, on more than one occasion, reach out to you for suggested names?
Answer. I think it might have been on two or three occasions.
Question. And do you recall any names that you would have given to her in conjunction with her outreach efforts?
Answer. Off the top of my head, no, I do not recall.
Question. Do you know whether you responded to her in a memorandum form?
Answer. I'm vaguely recalling that I did that or that I've seen something referencing that over the course of this inquiry.
Question. Do you know Demetrios Boutris in the United States Trade Representative's Office?
Answer. I know the name Demetrios Boutris who is not a trade representative. I know another Demetrios Boutris.
Question. And where did you first meet the Mr. Boutris you refer to?
Answer. I have never met him before.
Question. Have you had conversations with him?
Answer. I had a conversation, a brief one. The Demetrios us that I'm talking about is an employee at McAndrews and Forbes in New York City.
Question. And do you recall whether Mr. Boutris that's employed by McAndrews and Forbes called you, or did you call him?
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Answer. I called him to get any ideas with regard to Greece and what I might see in Greece.
Question. And was your interest in Greece in conjunction with a personal matter?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Did you ever discuss Mr. Trie's placement on a board or trade commission with Jude Kearney?
Answer. I don't believe I did, no.
Question. Did you ever discuss—did you ever discuss Mr. Trie with anyone in the White House Office of Presidential Personnel?
Answer. I don't believe I did.
Question. Regarding Mr. Boutris——
Answer. Yes.
Question. When—when did you get Mr. Boutris's name for you to contact him?
Answer. Eight weeks ago, seven weeks ago.
Question. Was your contact with Mr. Boutris in the last 3 months?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Had you ever spoken with him before the last 3 months?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Where did you get his name?
Answer. From Bill Lynch, who is also an employee at the company of McAndrews and Forbes.
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Question. Do you know whether Mr. Trie had ever made a contribution to the DNC prior to 1994?
Answer. I do not know, aside from what I believe to be the first contribution of 100,000, which was, I believe, made in 1994. I do not believe or am I—am I—that I'm aware of any other contribution prior to that $100,000 contribution.
Question. Did Mr. Trie ever have discussion with you during which he mentioned any other political contributions that he might have made prior to the initial 1994 DNC contribution?
Answer. Not that I recall, no.
Question. Had you ever been to Mr. Trie's restaurant in Little Rock?
Answer. No, I had not.
Question. I believe that when we were examining our list a few moments ago, one of the names from the Car Barn fund-raiser was Tony Hsu, which is spelled H-S-U, and I didn't pick up on this at the time, but I believe Mr. Hsu is associated with an organization called the Chy Corporation, which is C-H-Y corporation. Do you—and you testified that you did not know who Mr. Hsu was, so I don't want to keep asking the same questions over. But in conjunction with the corporation called the Chy Corporation, do you remember ever having met or heard of Tony Hsu?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know what the Chy Corporation is?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you ever—do you recall having either solicited or received contributions from the Chy Corporation?
Answer. Not specifically, no, although I know that I may have seen a check tracking form or copy of the check, but I don't recall making the solicitation. I don't believe I made the solicitation. I think it was money that was raised from one of our fund-raisers, but I don't—lay fund-raisers, but I don't know the specifics of it.
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Mr. WILSON. I have provided the witness with a document marked DNC 1479318, dated 11/21/96, entitled ''DNC Finance Executive Summary.''
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Is this the check tracking form you were just referring to?
Answer. No, it's not.
Question. Do you—does this document refresh your recollection at all as to any contributions made by either Mr. Hsu or the Chy Corporation?
Answer. No, other than the check tracking form that I saw, knowing that—that they did make a contribution. I might add that these—similar documents that you're showing me are printouts from our AS400, which the integrity of the data is something that we don't rely on and is something that so many people are involved in the process. For instance, I could do one event and then head out to another city, not be present when checks arrive, and people fill it out to the best of their knowledge. Based on that information that's recorded on the check tracking form, it then goes into the AS400. So you're not altogether sure of what the integrity of the data is.
But, I mean, only because I have seen the Chy Corporation copy of the check do I recall the Chy Corporation making a contribution. But I don't—and I did not know if you had asked me earlier that it would be $20,000.
Question. When—you just referred to the integrity of data coming out of the AS400 as suspect. What data would be suspect?
Mr. REED. With respect to this particular——
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Well with respect—just as a general, as in a general sense, what data would you feel could not be relied upon?
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Answer. For instance, I think there's a—and you may have a copy of it—there's a fund-raising account that I was shown in the Senate deposition, supposedly with all the names of people who were attributed to my raising money from. On first glance, you would think that I talked to every one of those people and got checks from them. It's just not the case. While I may have been the lead fund-raiser on the event, managing the logistics, also fund-raising, what have you, people would just get the check, fill out the tracking form to the best of their knowledge, thinking that because David Mercer is the leader of the event, he's, in fact, the one who solicited the contribution, when, in fact, that wasn't necessarily the case.
Or it could have been a check where the person never even attended the event, they sent it into the mail. You would think that they attended the event because they're recorded as being in that event.
There's all kinds of hybrid situations that goes deeper,, and I'll articulate it that way as opposed to the integrity of the data. There's a whole lot of other circumstances that allow you to go deeper than at face value of the document itself, or documents, from the AS400.
Mr. YEAGER. If I might interject, I gather from your testimony that you're referring to the solicitor category on the check tracking form.
The WITNESS. That is a reference as a hypothetical and an example in response to Mr. Wilson's question. But there may be other pieces of information. I know that what—I know, for instance, if—with regard to the address, phone number and everything else, that was very important for us to make sure that we had the correct information, not only for FEC reporting requirements, but also to be able to reach out to that donor to let them know that we were still in touch with them in hopes of them continuing to contribute to us.
So that data—but again, you have people changing addresses or whatever. People could give us one address where it's their home, but they can be reached at their company, but you don't have the company address. There's a whole bunch of—I'm trying to give you a sense for keeping track of this data and the dual functions of both fund-raising and the collection, the inputting, and the processing of the data and all the circumstances that could surround just that process.
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Mr. YEAGER. One further clarifying question.
The WITNESS. Sure.
Mr. YEAGER. If I may, counsel.
With respect to data required by the FEC, do you have any reason to believe that the data inputted into the AS400 lacked accuracy?
The WITNESS. No. And the only—no, I do not. I believe that we've all read about the addresses of the DNC being put in under certain contributors' names, but I—other than that, I would take that information to be pretty accurate, and based on what we have been—what's been communicated to us from the donor and/or solicitor of the check.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever regard the dollar amounts listed in AS400 printouts as being suspect?
Answer. No, because it is clear from the check what that—what the dollar amount is, so I would not—you know, unless it was a typographical error or something, I would not believe that that was something that would be questioned.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked Exhibit DM–18 and submitted for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–18 was marked for identification.]
Mr. WILSON. Could we go off the record for a moment, please?
[Discussion off the record.]
[Brief recess.]
Mr. WILSON. Back on the record.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know Pauline Kanchanalak?
Answer. I know the name. I don't recall ever meeting her, but I could have been in an event that she was also in attendance, but I don't know that that's the case.
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Question. Have you ever spoken with her on the telephone?
Answer. Not that I know of, no.
Question. Do you know when she began giving contributions to the DNC?
Answer. I'm sorry?
Question. Do you know when she began giving contributions to the DNC?
Answer. No I do not.
Question. Do you know whether Ms. Kanchanalak was in contact with any of the other individuals in your office?
Answer. I know from press accounts that she may have had interaction with John Huang, but I didn't know that before. And I only know that from press accounts.
Question. Did anybody ever mention to you that Ms. Kanchanalak had an interest in working with the Bureau of Labor Statistics?
Answer. Not to my knowledge or the best of my recollection, I don't know that.
Question. Did you ever discuss the coffee, Presidential coffee, that Ms. Kanchanalak attended with Richard Sullivan?
Answer. I don't recall having a conversation regarding Ms. Kanchanalak in a coffee.
Question. Prior to—prior to 1997, did you have any conversations with any DNC employees about whether Ms. Kanchanalak made contributions in her own name, or whether she made contributions in which the money came from somebody else?
Answer. I believe that at the time of the press inquiries, but I'm not sure, I can't pinpoint whether it was from November, December, or January, or February of '97, I believe that I was present for a conversation with Ari Swiller and Richard Sullivan in which it was discussed that she may have, as the press was reporting—it was a discussion of an aftereffect of the press reporting that she had submitted checks, and I don't even know the details, but somehow in the name of her mother or on behalf of her mother when it may have been her. But, again I don't know the details.
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Question. Do you know whether anybody at the DNC contacted Ms. Kanchanalak to discuss with her who had made the contributions attributed to her?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Did Mr. Swiller ever mention a telephone conversation with Ms. Kanchanalak about the source of contributions made in Ms. Kanchanalak's name?
Answer. I don't recall specifically the conversation that I referred to earlier with Richard and Ari, and I don't—in the sense that she may have made contributions in the name of her mother. But I don't know who knew that, or who was confirming that she did or not confirming, or I don't—I don't recall.
Question. When you had the conversation with Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Swiller about Ms. Kanchanalak and the origin of her contributions, do you recall whether anybody suggested that the DNC should take any actions in respect of the information that you learned during that conversation?
Answer. I don't have—I'm sure that there was some decision-making as to how to deal with the situation, but I don't—I was not privy to that information.
Question. Do you know John Huang?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. When did you first hear Mr. Huang's name?
Answer. I don't recall.
Question. When did you first meet Mr. Huang?
Answer. I believe it was in the fall of 1993.
Question. And do you recall the circumstances of your meeting Mr. Huang?
Answer. Yes I do.
Question. What were they?
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Answer. They were in preparation for two fund-raisers that we were putting together in either October or November of 1993.
Question. Where were those fund-raisers to be held?
Answer. One was at—it was a reception in the early evening at Creative Artist Agency. And the second one was a dinner at the home of Marvin Davis.
Mr. REED. For the record, this would be in southern California?
The WITNESS. In Los Angeles.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And do you remember the months of those fund-raisers?
Answer. I don't know if it was October or November, even possibly December, but it's within the fall of 1993.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document which has been marked F 0045577. It's a memorandum—draft memorandum to Minyon Moore from Mr. Mercer, dated November 30 of 1993.
Do you recall preparing this memorandum?
Answer. I don't recall preparing it, but I believe that I did prepare it.
Question. On the final page of this memorandum, Mr. Huang's name is listed. Do you—do you know why you recommended that Mr. Huang participate in this conference?
Answer. Like I recommended the 20 plus other names on here, them being known as business leaders or—and/or supporters, and both nationally and/or locally, and that they be recommended for consideration to participate in the economic conference that was scheduled around the same time that the fund-raisers were scheduled.
Question. Do you know how you got Mr. Huang's name for—name and address for inclusion in this list?
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Answer. I believe Mr. Huang's name was among many other names of supporters of both the DNC, the President, and that we had talked with him about helping us for the fund-raisers as well as probably talked to him about this. But I don't recall talking to him about the conference. And including him among those that would be discussed in—we had his name and address on the lists that we had had.
Mr. WILSON. I've marked this document Exhibit DM–19 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–19 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did Mr. Huang ever pay any bills that you acquired while you were an employee at the DNC?
Answer. Mr. Huang had provided an in-kind contribution for a hotel bill that included expenses associated with the preparation of the fund-raiser for several staff members that were there working on the fund-raisers.
Question. Did you discuss this in-kind contribution with Mr. Huang?
Answer. Yes, I believe I did.
Question. Did he—did he offer to make this in-kind contribution?
Answer. I believe I shared with him the request, and he was agreeable to conceding to the request.
Question. Is—was this a request that you made of him, or did you pass it along to him from somebody else?
Answer. I believe that I made it of him, and I'm not sure if Nancy Jacobson had talked to him or not. I'm not sure of that at all, but I believe I was one that talked to him.
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Question. Did you know at the time that you were staying in the hotel that ultimately was paid for by Mr. Huang that he was going to be making this in-kind contribution?
Answer. No, I did not.
Mr. WILSON. So we have in front of us what we're talking about, I've given the witness a document marked DNC 3161227. It's a letter from Mr. John Huang to a Ms. Linda Sperber.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know if the amount of Mr. Huang's contribution, which is listed here as $6,500, was a full payment for the expenses incurred by yourself and other staff members?
Answer. I believe it was, but I'm not altogether sure.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Huang was reimbursed for this?
Answer. I don't——
Question. For any of this contribution?
Answer. I don't believe he was. I believe it was recorded as an in-kind contribution.
Question. How—was it your responsibility to record this in-kind contribution?
Answer. It was to inform people of the in-kind contribution, and then it got reported in the FEC reporting, or there was an in-kind contribution form that we filled out.
Question. Do you remember filling out an in-kind contribution form for this particular contribution?
Answer. I don't have the specific recollection, but I believe that it was reported as an in-kind contribution.
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Question. Was there a—a prepared form that you would obtain and fill out whenever you received an in-kind contribution?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And where would you get this form from?
Answer. From the operations manager or whatever of the DNC finance division.
Question. And who would you return the form to once it was filled out?
Answer. To the person that was the operations director, or Neil Reiff handled, I believe, in-kind contributions as part of his preparation for the FEC reporting.
Question. Do you recall in the case of this particular in-kind contribution whether you discussed the contribution in advance of Mr. Huang writing this letter?
Answer. I may have with Nancy Jacobson or Laura Hartigan, but I'm not sure of who I may have talked to first or together or consecutively or how.
Question. Do you know of any other payments made by Mr. Huang for rooms or expenses of DNC employees?
Answer. Not that I'm aware of.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked as Exhibit DM–20, and I'll put it in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–20 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. The—this particular in-kind contribution we discussed that paid for a room and expenses in a hotel, was there a usual type of in-kind contribution?
Answer. We—yes.
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Question. Do you recall other examples of in-kind contributions that were made to cover the expenses you incurred in a hotel?
Answer. Yeah. Just recently I was in Boston, and the Copley Plaza Hotel put me up, because that's where we were having the event, and they gave me an in-kind or complimentary value, the value of which would be an in-kind contribution.
Question. Prior to November 1996, did you personally receive—and I don't mean you personally, but did the DNC receive an in-kind contribution for your expenses in a hotel?
Answer. Can you repeat the question?
Question. Prior to November of 1996, did the DNC—was the DNC given an in-kind contribution to cover expenses that you incurred in a hotel?
Mr. REED. Are you asking if he is aware or if it's——
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. If you're aware.
Answer. Off the top of my head, no. But there could have been certain situations that you're referring to.
Question. Prior to November of 1996, are you aware of any in-kind contributions being rejected by the DNC?
Answer. Not to my awareness, no.
Question. Aside from the matter we've just discussed, the fund-raisers you mentioned in 1993, and the subsequent discussions over the in-kind contribution we've just discussed, did you have any other contacts with Mr. Huang while he was employed by Lippo—by the LippoBank in California?
Answer. We—Nancy Jacobson and I had visited his office on one occasion during our preparations for the event, outlining for him the activities for that day and asking him for his help or support in that activity. And I believe, but I did not handle it or receive it, that he attended—that he made a contribution—whether it was personal or corporate, I don't know—and that he attended both the reception and the dinner.
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Question. Did you have any subsequent contact with Mr. Huang that you recall before he went to work at the Commerce Department?
Answer. I may have, but I don't—I don't have a specific recollection after leaving California of when we may have talked before.
Question. Did you speak with anyone regarding Mr. Huang's appointment to the Commerce Department?
Answer. No, I did not.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document which is a—appears to be a short memorandum to Mr. Mercer from Adam Crain, dated April 20, and it's regarding a follow-up for a May 10 breakfast with the Vice President in Los Angeles. And it refers to your wanting to contact Mr. Huang about a May 10 breakfast.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall inviting Mr. Huang to a breakfast at this time?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Did you have any contacts with Mr. Huang while he was employed at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. And if you could please explain those contacts?
Answer. Primarily phone conversations and discussing DNC activities or other activities, social or otherwise, and keeping abreast and in touch with him.
Question. Did Mr. Huang contact you on these occasions, or did you contact him first?
Answer. I—I mean, I think we have had an exchange of phone calls. Who initiated this exchange, I don't recall.
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Question. Do you recall when you first contacted or your first contact with Mr. Huang when he was employed at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. Could you repeat the question?
Question. Do you recall your first contact with Mr. Huang when he was at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Do you recall any of the specific matters that you discussed when you had contacts between yourself and Mr. Huang when he was at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. I don't recall specifics. But just in trying to think back. It could have been to invite him to events; it could have been informing him of the schedule of events and whether others would want to participate. It could, you know, could have been a range of things, but, I don't recall specifics.
Mind you, that I think there's a record of 15 messages over a 2-year period. Given phone tag and voice mail, probably we had five conversations. And if you take my schedule, with a thousand calls a month over 4 years, you're talking 48,000 calls, and amongst those I don't remember the details of every one of them. So I can only try to at this time, best of my recollection, try to recall those.
Question. Do you recall discussing any fund-raising events while Mr. Huang was at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. I don't recall specifically discussing fund-raising events, but I would think it probable that I would inform him of the fund-raising events and what the schedule was. And we often had appointees participating in our events as guests, and in some instances, there may have been people that they had been associated with before that may have also attended those events. But, you know, it wasn't an unusual circumstance.
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Question. Do you recall inviting Mr. Huang to attend a DNC-sponsored event as a guest?
Answer. Again, I don't recall specifics but that could have been part of our conversation. I believe he has attended one or two events while he was at Commerce, but I don't have a specific recollection of which events those were.
Question. Do you recall whether you ever asked Mr. Huang to provide assistance in setting up meetings with Department of Commerce employees?
Answer. I don't believe that I did, but I don't recall specifically not doing that. But I don't believe that I did because I don't—I just—no, I don't believe that I did.
Question. Do you remember ever discussing trade missions while Mr. Huang was at the Department of Commerce?
Answer. I don't recall discussing——
Mr. REED. With Mr. Huang?
Mr. WILSON. Yes.
The WITNESS. With Mr. Huang? I don't believe that I did.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did Mr. Huang ever provide you, at the time that he was employed at the Department of Commerce, names of individuals who might be potential DNC donors?
Answer. I don't believe it was in the context that you're describing. I could have called him and asked him about an individual who I would assume may be associated with Mr. Huang, given that they share the same cultural heritage. But I don't believe that he proactively gave me information on people to follow up on.
I was somewhat aware of checks that had been at least associated with Mr. Huang prior to his appointment in 19—whatever year he was appointed. And I could have asked him about that individual or individuals. But I don't have a specific recollection of doing that.
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Question. Do you have any general recollections of names of individuals discussed, if you did discuss individuals?
Answer. Well, I can say that I know that names that were associated with Mr. Huang prior to his appointment at Commerce—that being—Wiriadinata is a name that jumps out at me, which was maybe a check that was received in 1993 or 1994. But I don't—no other name kind of jumps out at me.
Question. Do you have a recollection, then, of making inquiries about checks received by Mr. or Mrs. Wiriadinata when the checks were received?
Answer. Could you repeat the question?
Question. Do you have a recollection of making inquiries about the Wiriadinatas—either Mr. or Mrs. Wiriadinata—when the DNC received checks from them?
Answer. No, I don't.
Mr. WILSON. I'd just like to mark the document we were discussing a moment ago for inclusion in the record Exhibit DM–21.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–21 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. How did you first become aware of Mr. Huang as a contributor to the DNC?
Answer. I believe it was in the preparations and the sharing of information among staff in preparation for the 1993 events that were referred to earlier.
Question. Did you have any contemporaneous knowledge of how Mr. Huang came to be hired as a fund-raiser at the DNC?
Answer. I think most of the information that I have since learned has been recorded in the press. Other than hearing maybe the idea that John was coming to the DNC, I did not know of all the logistics involved or discussions involved with John coming to work at the DNC.
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Question. Do you recall who first mentioned to you that Mr. Huang might be coming to the DNC?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Do you recall any of the individuals with whom you discussed Mr. Huang prior to his coming to the DNC?
Answer. No, I don't, except that it wouldn't be unlikely for, in passing, Richard and I to have a conversation about it. But I don't recall having that conversation. But I leave open the possibility that we probably maybe talked about it.
Question. Did you know at the time of his being hired at the DNC that Mr. Huang had been recommended by Joe Giroir?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. When did you first learn that Mr. Giroir recommended Mr. Huang?
Answer. In the press.
Question. Do you know whether—do you have any knowledge, contemporaneous knowledge of any individuals, other than Mr. Giroir, who recommended Mr. Huang for a position at the DNC?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Did you know——
Answer. Excuse me, contemporaneous knowledge being what has already been reported in the press and what I found out in the press, whether it be the President or other people in the chain of calls that are alleged to have occurred in the process of his hiring? That I know all through the press and did not know prior to its—or it's—simultaneous to it happening.
Question. But prior to Mr. Huang's being employed by the DNC, is it fair to say that you were not aware of anybody recommending him for the position at the DNC?
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Answer. That would be fair to say. And truthful to say.
Question. Did you—did you know at the time of a professional relationship between Mr. Giroir and Mark Middleton and at time being—at the time of Mr. Huang's being hired at the DNC?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Did you participate in any meetings prior to Mr. Huang's being hired at the DNC during which Mr. Huang was discussed as a potential DNC hire?
Answer. I don't believe any—that I was part of any meeting at which that was discussed.
Question. Did anybody tell you, prior to Mr. Huang's being hired, that Harold Ickes had expressed an interest in Mr. Huang being hired at the DNC?
Answer. Other than the press and your mentioning it now, I had not heard of that.
Question. Did Mr. Huang ever discuss with you, while he was a member of the Department of Commerce staff, the prospect of becoming a DNC employee?
Answer. I don't believe he did, no.
Question. Prior to Mr. Huang's being employed at the DNC, did anybody communicate to you that President Clinton had made comments about Mr. Huang prior to his employment at the DNC?
Answer. Prior to press accounts, I was unaware of that.
Question. Did you ever directly solicit contributions from Mr. Huang?
Answer. At what point?
Question. At any time. Any time during your tenure at the DNC.
Answer. Well, I think in 1993 that we had asked for Mr. Huang's support. We had told him what the membership or the participation levels were of the particular events. And from my standpoint, him being an elder and what have you, I deferred to him determining how he would participate. And as I had mentioned earlier, I was not the one that principally received the checks, so I don't know how he subsequently was involved, other than to know that I saw him entering the Creative Artist Agency event, and I know that from a table seating chart that he also participated in the dinner.
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And from my standpoint again with him as an elder and with a principal in our mind, in my mind, I informed him, it was not a hard sell, if you will, to participate and we need this or that. It was more an information sharing and letting him know what—what we were trying to do.
Question. Did you have any subsequent occasions to make any requests of Mr. Huang that he contribute money to the DNC?
Answer. I—I again don't know—and don't recall saying, John, I need you to write a $25,000 check. That's not the way I would communicate with Mr. Huang. But that doesn't mean that as a result of our conversations that he did not contribute, as I know he did in the 1993 events. But I would assume that other people had conversations or he had conversations with other people in making that determination and acting on it.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document which is marked DNC 3078819. It's dated 12/3/96, and it's titled, ''DNC Finance Executive Summary,'' and it appears to be a contribution tracking form for Mrs. Jane Huang.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever ask Mrs. Huang to make contributions to the DNC?
Answer. Not that I recall.
Question. Did you—have you ever met Mrs. Huang?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. When did you first meet her?
Answer. I don't recall. I mean, I have one just vivid image of her being at the DNC at the front desk, and I can't recall if I met her in '93. I can't recall beyond that. But I know what she looks like and I have talked to her on the phone, I know that.
Question. Have you had any discussions with anybody about soliciting contributions from Mrs. Huang?
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Mr. REED. I'm sorry; what was the question?
Mr. WILSON. Have you had any conversations with anybody at the DNC about soliciting contributions from Mrs. Huang.
Mr. REED. At any time? At any time has he ever had any conversations?
Mr. YEAGER. I assume you're not including conversations with general counsel?
Mr. WILSON. Well, I am including any conversation.
Mr. YEAGER. Well, I would object to that.
Mr. REED. Well, let me just—can I just consult with him?
Mr. WILSON. Sure.
[Witness and counsel confer.]
Mr. REED. We would object as a matter of form to the question that call for answers to conversations that he may have had with Joe Sandler or other members of the general counsel's office of the DNC. But as a matter of fact, he did not have conversations with Joe Sandler.
The WITNESS. To the best of my recollection. And I don't think Mrs. Huang came up as a subject matter like, you know, I'm soliciting Mrs. Huang and she's going to do this. It could have been that she wrote a check and delivered some checks and I said to somebody that these checks came in or whatever. But I don't recall any specific conversation solely to do with Mrs. Jane Huang.
Mr. REED. Just for the record, I want to acknowledge Minority counsel's objection and indicate that in order to obviate time wasted, haggling over something that may be unnecessary when those objections are made, I'm going to consult with Mr. Mercer and determine if there's any conversation—privileged conversations that took place that we need to haggle about. If not, let's just move forward.
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Mr. YEAGER. Fine. And for the record, I made the objection because counsel for the DNC isn't permitted to attend the deposition.
Mr. REED. We are certainly not waiving any assertion of the attorney-client privilege that would otherwise attain, but we are trying to be sensible.
Mr. WILSON. I appreciate that and if we come to a point where we have to discuss that, we will do that at the time.
I've marked the exhibit we were examining Exhibit DM–22.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–22 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. When Mr. Huang did become an employee of the DNC, did you discuss training with him? Fund-raising training?
Answer. His training or—any training?
Question. Any training at all.
Answer. Not that I recall, no.
Question. Do you recall ever having had any discussions with Mr. Huang about the law as it relates to fund-raising?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Did you have any concerns at the time of Mr. Huang's hiring about fund-raising in the Asian community?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you know whether any of your colleagues at the DNC—and I'm asking for contemporaneous knowledge, not what you have learned in press accounts subsequently—but do you know whether or not any of your colleagues had contemporaneous concerns about Mr. Huang's lack of background as a fund-raiser?
Answer. No, I did not, except for press accounts just for the record.
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Question. Do you know if any of your colleagues had any contemporaneous concerns about fund-raising in the Asian community?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Did you know at the time whether either Marvin Rosen or Chairman Fowler had expressed a desire for Mr. Huang to be trained for fund-raising purposes?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Huang did receive any fund-raising training?
Answer. No, I do not, other than maybe a staff meeting with Joe Sandler or whatever. I don't know for a fact whether or not he was a part of that or not.
Question. Prior to press accounts about Mr. Huang at the DNC, did you know how much Mr. Huang was to be paid as a fund-raiser at the DNC?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Did you know at the time there was an agreement to supplement his compensation depending on the contributions that he raised?
Answer. No, I did not. I like these questions.
Question. They go much quicker.
Did Mr. Huang ever organize or help to organize fund-raising events for the President—involving the President?
Mr. REED. While he was at the DNC or at any point?
Mr. WILSON. I'll take that at any point first.
The WITNESS. As far as I know, during his tenure at the DNC, he helped organize events that involved the President.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And do you know the period during which he helped to organize fund-raising events involving the President?
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Answer. From the time he was hired to the time that he left the DNC. I don't know the exact times of when he was at the DNC.
Question. Do you know whether, at any time during his employment at the DNC, whether he stopped helping to organize fund-raising events for the President, that involved the President?
Answer. Other than the press accounts or from testimony in the Senate hearings, I did not know that he had been redirected to doing other things or was not organizing fund-raisers other than when he left the DNC.
Question. How would you characterize his role in helping to facilitate fund-raising events involving the President?
Answer. I would characterize it as a lead fund-raiser on events.
Question. And what does that mean?
Answer. That means he had at least primary line responsibility for the activities associated with the preparation of those events, both in the raising of money and probably to a lesser extent the event logistics.
Question. Were events—and this is a general question that applies to your knowledge of arranging fund-raising events at the DNC—were events that were to involve the President treated any differently than fund-raising events that didn't necessarily involve the President?
Answer. If they didn't involve the President, the main difference that pops up in my mind is that it didn't involve the White House; therefore, briefings would not go to the White House or it may have, I don't know for a fact if they didn't. And, you know, I mean just in terms of the involvement of the principal or principals, if they weren't involved, then they weren't briefed.
Mr. YEAGER. I think it might help if you broke the question down.
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Mr. WILSON. Well——
The WITNESS. I think we went through the same preparations in preparing a nonprincipaled event versus a principaled event. We went through the same briefings and what have you. I just think that the entities that were not present may not necessarily be briefed with the same detail. They may know that we have on our schedule a nonprincipaled event, which they were just aware of, being the White House. But I don't know that there were any other differences associated with that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall any things that had to be done if the President was involved in a fund-raiser that just didn't have to be done otherwise? Anything that was specific to Presidential events?
Answer. Nothing comes, you know, comes to mind.
Question. Were you aware—and this is a question directed to the time period before November of 1996—of whether anybody at the DNC had discussions about Mr. Huang's practices or results as a fund-raiser with anybody at the White House?
Answer. No, I was unaware of that.
Question. Did Mr. Huang ever request you to provide him with information about potential donors while he was employed at the DNC?
Answer. Well, I vaguely remember him maybe asking me about an event or schedule of events and what individuals might participate in.
Question. Did you interact with Mr. Huang when he was at the DNC?
Answer. I would make it as comparable to when he was at Commerce. Maybe five times in any real exchange for longer than 5 minutes, 10 minutes.
Question. He had, it is my understanding that he had an office that was not in the main DNC building. Did you ever go to that office?
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Answer. With the express purpose of visiting Mr. Huang?
Question. Yes, to visit him specifically.
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you know whether or not Mr. Huang had his own lists of potential contributors to work with?
Answer. I don't know that for a fact. I'd assume in order to do his job that he did, but I don't know that for a fact.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Huang traveled—and this is again did you know prior to November of 1996—whether Mr. Huang traveled outside of the United States while he was an employee of the DNC?
Answer. I learned from press accounts that he had taken a trip to Taiwan, I believe, to the best of my recollection of that press account, but I do not—I did not know that at the time or even afterwards prior to press accounts.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of anybody discussing Mr. Huang's trip to Taiwan prior to his traveling to Taiwan?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of any discussions between DNC employees involving—whether Mr. Huang solicited contributions while he was in Taiwan, contributions to the DNC?
Mr. YEAGER. I think he's just testified that he didn't even know about the trip to Taiwan, other than press accounts.
The WITNESS. That would be correct, and I don't know what the purpose of his trip to Taiwan was.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. When were you first aware of concern that Mr. Huang was raising questionable contributions?
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Answer. I was never aware that Mr. Huang was raising questionable contributions. I vaguely remember the first check which began this whole inquiry being a Choeng Am Corporation, which I didn't know was the Choeng Am Corporation at the time. But that they had represented that they were a U.S. foreign subsidiary, and it was later determined that their balance sheet showed no U.S. revenues. And this is all in retrospect and from press accounts, but I vaguely remember I was out in Los Angeles working on an event and the story was also broken out there by the L.A. Times.
So it was a combination of it being raised as an issue that I didn't know the details of and then learning the details in the press account. But it was the nature of the check. It was not, as you characterized it, Mr. Huang raising questionable contributions.
Question. When was the last time you had contact with Mr. Huang?
Answer. It was probably, maybe 2-1/2 months ago, and it came up in the Senate deposition. I was going through a phone bill for a cellular phone and it had fraudulent charges on it so I was going through all the numbers on it to verify what were my calls and what were maybe calls I didn't know and therefore attributed to fraud, and the phone bill was from October through December of 1996, at which point I had made a call to the Huang residence in California when all the news was breaking to wish them well, to suggest that they not worry, but, you know, I hate to see them going through this.
So ironically when I was checking through all of these phone numbers it was the night before I was due to go into the Senate deposition. I reached Jane Huang on the phone to my surprise, and then she asked if I wanted to speak to John. I said sure. John and I expressed pleasantries. I communicated much of what I communicated back in October of '96, and that was the last contact that I had with Mr. Huang.
Question. And when was that?
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Answer. I believe it was late May, early June.
Question. And I didn't understand exactly why you made the telephone call. Was your testimony just that you were checking the numbers on the bill?
Answer. I had a phone bill from October of '96.
Mr. REED. With hundreds of numbers on it.
The WITNESS. Yeah, from October '96 through December, maybe even January. And on that bill were—it was like a thousand dollars, which my phone bills are never a thousand dollars. So I had to, for the phone company, delineate what phone calls were mine and which ones weren't. So I was sitting there late at night calling through all the numbers rather than waste time during the day to do that. And one of the numbers was 818-whatever the number is and it turned out to be the Huang residence, which is a call I had made in October of '96 about the time of the press coverage of the Choeng Am check or whatever contribution. And, you know, John being on the front pages and my calling to say I'm sorry that you're having to go through this.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you discuss any of the possible subjects of your deposition testimony the following day?
Answer. We did not. And for the record, I contacted my attorney afterwards, and it was ironic that the next day when I was in deposition that was the same question you had just asked me.
Question. Unfortunate timing.
I'd just like to ask you briefly about three specific fund-raising events.
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. And again this is prior, prior to press accounts about any events involving Mr. Huang. But were you aware of any concerns amongst DNC employees about a fund-raiser held at the Sheraton Carlton on May 13 of 1996?
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Answer. I don't have recollection, and my responsibilities in that period were almost exclusively directed at the preparations for the convention, so I doubt that I would have had any ongoing knowledge or even a cursory knowledge of that event, and it doesn't ring out at me at all.
Question. When you were working on convention preparation, did you maintain the same office that you had maintained for the duration of your duties at the DNC, or were you located somewhere else physically?
Answer. I believe from 1995—I've had the same office from 1995 to current.
Question. Again, speaking of contemporaneous concerns, were you aware of any expressions of concern for an event held at the Hsi Lai Temple on April 12, 1996?
Answer. Other than press accounts, I knew nothing about it, before, during, and after until it was done in the press.
Question. Were you aware of any contemporaneous concerns surrounding a fund-raising event held at the Jefferson Hotel?
Answer. I was aware of no concerns, and I may have stopped by that event, if my memory serves me—no, Jefferson? No, in fact I did not attend that event. Sorry. And I don't know any circumstances surrounding that event.
Question. How would you characterize the relationship between Mr. Huang and Charlie Trie?
Answer. Cordial, respectful, and friendly.
Question. Were you aware of their ever having worked together?
Answer. I was aware that they knew of one another. I don't know how they worked together. I know that when John had come to the DNC on staff, that at least to me it was more visible as to how they might work together or participate with one another in support of our activities and the reelection efforts.
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Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Huang ever made any requests of you about Charlie Trie?
Answer. I don't believe he did.
Question. When did you first hear of Johnny Chung?
Answer. In the summer of 1994. To the best of my recollection.
Question. When did you first meet Mr. Chung?
Answer. I don't—I don't recall specifically whether it was at the DNC or whether it was at the Sumner Wells event for—that was the Presidential birthday party.
Question. How did you first hear about Johnny Chung?
Answer. I believe through Vida Benavides who was in the political division of the DNC as the Asian Pacific American outreach person.
Question. And what were the circumstances of the contact between you and Ms. Benavides about Mr. Chung?
Answer. I believe it was in connection with the 1994 August Sumner Wells estate fund-raiser.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document F 0046122. It's a memorandum to Mr. Mercer from Erica Payne from two individuals, Grace Ho and Vida Benavides.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you have any recollection of receiving this memorandum?
Answer. Vague recollection, yes.
Question. Do you know why it was sent to you?
Answer. Because I was one of the lead fund-raisers with Erica Payne on the event.
Question. Did you have any discussions with anybody, prior to the fund-raiser being held, about Mr. Chung, apart from the one referred to earlier?
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Answer. Maybe to follow this up, or when is this contribution coming in? I don't believe it was $100,000. I think it was anywhere between 60 and 80. And to the best of my recollection, that's what I recall.
Question. Do you know whether you were able to allow Mr. Chung's parents to attend the reception, to attend the event?
Answer. Yeah, I think it is a documented request. People were entitled to bring their quests, and this was just informing us that he was bringing his parents. So, you know, I think we just filed it and included—probably subsequent to this memo asked for the names of them so they could be included on the guest list and coming as Johnny Chung's guests.
Question. Did you ever—have you ever asked for a background check or background research to be done on Mr. Chung?
Answer. No, I have not.
Question. Did you ever have misgivings about Mr. Chung as a contributor?
Answer. I will say that I was struck by his company brochure that included pictures with himself and every Governor of every State in the country, including also the First Lady and the President. I just thought that was odd. But that's the—I believe also just the knack for pictures and pictures and what have you. Those were the two issues that stood out in my mind most.
Question. When did you first see the company literature you were just referring to?
Answer. It could—it was in and around the time of this event.
Question. Do you recall whether Mr. Chung sent you materials about his company in or around the time of this event?
Answer. I don't recall whether it was him sending it to me or me getting it from Vida Benavides or somebody else having it and my seeing it. I'm not sure.
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Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–23 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–23 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And how did your relationship with Mr. Chung develop after this, the initial fund-raising event that he attended?
Answer. Keeping in touch, formal, and I don't think we dealt together with any other events or activities.
Question. How often did you speak with him?
Answer. In the 3 years now, maybe five occasions, six occasions. Somewhere in that neighborhood.
Question. Do you recall soliciting any subsequent contributions to the one discussed in the memo we were just reviewing?
Answer. I may have solicited him when I was in California in 1996 in preparation for our unity events in Los Angeles.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document which is a number of pages long and the first page is marked DNC 1587948. It is a memorandum from Mr. Mercer to Richard Sullivan dated September 14, 1994, regarding the Vice Presidential luncheon list.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And I think the only thing I'll refer to is the two sentences at the beginning which are: ''This is the list you requested for the VP luncheon on 9/21. It is a pool of some of the best raisers-writers to draw from. Let's get together to size it down. Thanks for your attention.''
When you referred to Mr. Chung as a part of the group some of the best ''raisers'' and ''writers,'' what were you referring to?
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Answer. Probably from this, and not knowing him before the August event, the fact that he raised in the neighborhood of $60- to $80,000 was a good demonstration of abilities as a fund-raiser or capacity to write checks and that therefore he'd be included—I included him on the list of other people that had done comparable or more.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Chung ever solicited contributions from anybody else for the DNC?
Answer. I don't know that for a fact.
Question. Do you have any general knowledge that Mr. Chung requested contributions from other individuals?
Answer. I don't have any general knowledge. My memory could be refreshed if I saw the checks that maybe were attributed to his fund-raising for the August event.
Question. Do you know why Mr. Sullivan requested the list that you have set down in the memorandum that we are reviewing?
Answer. Other than there being a VP luncheon, the nature of which I was unsure of or I am unsure of, it was, you know—I mean, this business is a business of lists and we were constantly being asked for lists of people to include in activities. So I don't know per se what that is without further information.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked Exhibit DM–24 for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–24 was marked for identification.]
Mr. REED. Are we still on Johnny Chung?
Mr. WILSON. Yes.
Mr. REED. I was going to suggest that when we finish up Johnny, that we recess and figure out where our schedule was.
Mr. WILSON. I think I probably have 10 to 15 minutes of additional questions on Johnny Chung.
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The WITNESS. That's fine with me.
Mr. WILSON. If we could go through that, that would be best.
Mr. REED. Fine.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever have concerns that the money contributed by Mr. Chung might not be his own?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Did you ever arrange for Mr. Chung to meet with any administration or government officials?
Answer. I don't believe I did to the best of my recollection.
Question. Do you know whether he ever made requests of you to help facilitate a meeting with government officials?
Answer. No, I do not recall him making the request or a request.
Question. Did Mr. Chung ever express interest in trade missions to you?
Answer. Not to me, no.
Question. Did Mr. Chung ever mention John Huang to you?
Answer. I may have mentioned John Huang to him, believing that John Huang was a leader in the Asian community and that if he had not met John Huang before or didn't know him, that it might be in his interest to know who he was. For the record, as I would if I met an African American who was involved in the process and didn't know other African Americans, I would introduce them.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of whether Mr. Chung took steps to contact or meet Mr. Huang after this suggestion?
Answer. I do not know.
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Question. Do you recall any requests for Mr. Chung to meet with Chairman Fowler?
Answer. I don't recall requests. I vaguely recall that he did meet with Mr. Fowler, but I don't know under what circumstance or under whose auspices that that took place, to the best of my recollection.
Question. Did Mr. Chung ever suggest to you that he would like to meet with Mr. Fowler?
Answer. He may have, but I don't think that I'm the one who initiated the meeting, to the best of my recollection.
Question. Did you ever make a request of any White House personnel on behalf of Mr. Chung?
Answer. Not that I can recall, no.
Question. Did you know, and this again is asking for contemporaneous knowledge—that Johnny Chung and a number of Chinese businessmen attended a Presidential radio address on March 11, of 1995?
Answer. Other than the press accounts, I had no idea that that had occurred.
Question. Do you know of any subsequent conversations prior to press accounts about the March 11, 1995, Presidential radio address?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Having subsequently learned about the attendance of the Presidential radio address, did you recognize any of the names of individuals Mr. Chung went to the radio address with?
Answer. If you mentioned a name, I would not know who it was nor could I pick anybody out of a lineup.
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Question. Do you know whether Mr. Chung was ever told of outstanding debts from the White House Christmas party?
Answer. Other than press accounts and what's been reported, I had no knowledge of that.
Question. Apart from press accounts, were you ever aware that Mr. Chung spoke with Richard Sullivan about going on a trade mission to China with Secretary Brown and the Department of Commerce?
Answer. I never heard about it in the press and this is the first time I'm hearing it from you.
Question. Did you ever receive requests from Mr. Chung to locate and provide photographs?
Answer. I may have, but I—I don't recall. And I think—I believe it was in this deposition last week that we discussed my going over there on one or two occasions. I can tell you that it wasn't to locate Johnny Chung's photographs.
Question. Have you ever heard of an individual whose name is Sheng Huaran, spelled S-H-E-N-G, H-U-A-R-A-N?
Answer. To the best of my knowledge, I do not know who that is.
Question. Did you ever have any conversations with any of your DNC colleagues about Mr. Chung meeting Secretary of Energy Hazel O'Leary?
Answer. Prior to press accounts, I knew nothing of it. Nor had discussions with anybody.
Question. Do you know what the China Everbright Group is?
Answer. I do not know who the China Everbright Group is.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document which has been numbered DNC 1781646. It is a memorandum for Jennifer Kaas from Mr. Mercer, dated April 18, 1996.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Who is Jennifer Kaas?
Answer. She worked in the Office of the Chairman and at the time it would be Chairman Fowler.
Question. Do you recall preparing this memorandum?
Answer. No, I don't. But it looks like a memorandum from me.
Question. The memo states that the chairman had requested a list of names. Do you know why these names were requested?
Answer. The ''re:'' reads: Suggested names for special election prospecting, and I believe it was for a special election in that year. Which special election, I don't recall. And a list of those that might be interested in supporting the special election candidate for that race.
Question. And what is referred to by special election in this context?
Answer. Special election, as I know it, would be for somebody who's resigned office and a special election is held to fill the vacancy, but I don't know in what State or what office that was.
Question. Do you remember why you included Mr. Chung's name on this list?
Answer. As it refers to prospecting, I included his name as somebody that would be among the other names of people that might be amenable to doing that.
Question. And do you recall why you included Richard Park's name on this list?
Answer. For the same reason.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked Exhibit DM–25 for inclusion in the record.
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[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–25 was marked for identification.]
Mr. WILSON. Is it all right it we go off the record?
Mr. YEAGER. Sure.
[Discussion off the record.]
[Whereupon at 1:05 p.m., a lunch break was taken, to reconvene at 1:30 p.m.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. When did you first hear the name Roger Tamraz?
Answer. Maybe just in the office and his name coming up, being on a list, or that he was a major supporter or—but I don't have any specific recollection.
Question. Have you ever met Mr. Tamraz?
Answer. I don't believe I have. I could have met him at a—at an event in New York or here in Washington, but I don't believe I have.
Question. Have you—did Mr. Tamraz ever contact you by telephone?
Answer. Not that I'm aware of, no.
Question. Have you ever arranged introductions for Tamraz to meet government officials?
Answer. Not that I recall or do I believe I was, no.
Question. Have you ever assisted Mr. Tamraz in any way?
Answer. I don't believe I have.
Mr. REED. He meant knowingly.
The WITNESS. Yeah. I mean, knowingly or, you know, to the best of my recollection, no.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
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Question. Prior to November of 1996, were you aware that other DNC employees were in contact with Mr. Tamraz?
Answer. Not—I did not know that for a fact, no.
Question. Specifically, were you aware of whether Carol Khare was ever in contact with Mr. Tamraz?
Answer. No, I was not aware of that.
Question. Did you ever discuss Mr. Tamraz with anybody at the DNC——
Answer. Quite——
Question. Prior to November of 1996?
Answer. Possibly. But I, other than press reports, didn't know what business he was in or what his interests were or anything of that. But it's not to say that his name couldn't have come up in conversation.
Question. In 1995, prior to the end of 1995, were you ever aware that Mr. Tamraz had met Chairman Fowler in Chairman Fowler's offices?
Answer. I was not aware of that.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document that's actually five pages. The first page is marked DNC 3116350. The second page is a memorandum, and the third and fourth pages are continuations of the memorandum, and the fifth page is a separate memorandum.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. If you would, please, focusing on the memorandum on the second page of what I've given you, it's to Don Fowler from an individual named Alejandra Castillo, dated July 12th, 1995, regarding a meeting with Roger Tamraz. Have you—have you ever seen this memorandum before?
Answer. No, I have not.
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Question. Do you recall whether you had any conversations with either Ms. Castillo or Ari Swiller in July of 1995 about Roger Tamraz?
Answer. I don't believe I did.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–26 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–26 was marked for identification.]
Mr. REED. Just note for the record, just to follow up on an objection that Mr. Yeager made last week, that we're not objecting to your inclusion into the record of documents that David can't identify or he's never seen before, but the record should be absolutely clear that you're including it for whatever purposes you have indicated, among those to permit Mr. Mercer to review them in connection with his review of his own deposition. So I want to make it clear he doesn't know anything about that document.
Mr. WILSON. Sure. Since the deposition began last Thursday, I have made a decision to include everything that I use in the record, simply as a convenience to refer to for anybody who's reviewing the deposition.
Mr. REED. That's fine.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Actually, just turning attention again, before we put the memorandum away, it mentions during the body of the memorandum problems that Mr. Tamraz was having with the international business community. Were you ever aware, prior to media accounts in late 1996, of any problems that Mr. Tamraz was having with the international business community?
Answer. Prior to media accounts, I have no recollection or do I believe I knew of any international business dealings as may be mentioned here in the memo.
Question. Are you—did you participate in any discussions during which Mr. Tamraz's potential participation in a Commerce Department Trade Board was discussed?
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Answer. No, I was not.
Question. Actually, if we could turn to the final page of the materials that I've given you with this last exhibit, there's a memorandum for Roger Tamraz for Richard Sullivan and Ari Swiller dated March 28th, 1996. Were you aware in 1996, prior to November of 1996, of any contributions that Mr. Tamraz made to either State Democratic parties or State political candidates?
Answer. This is the first time I'm seeing this memo. However, I think there were press accounts regarding contributions to the Virginia State Democratic party, as is indicated here on the 7/19/95 entry. But that's what I know of it, being a State—the Virginia State Democratic party. And that's what I knew as is reflected here.
Question. Did you ever participate in any discussions wherein people were discussing Mr.—potential contributions to State parties by Mr. Tamraz?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. The memorandum that we have reviewed from Ms. Castillo to Chairman Fowler, do you have any knowledge of whether anybody in the DNC, apart from Mr. Fowler, received this memorandum? And apart from the two courtesy copy names mentioned at the end of the memorandum, do you have any knowledge that anybody else received this memorandum?
Answer. I do not have any independent knowledge.
Mr. REED. Do you have knowledge that Mr. Fowler received the memorandum?
The WITNESS. No I do not.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did—do you know whether Chairman Fowler ever offered assistance to Tamraz in meeting with Federal officials?
Answer. No, I do not, other than what has been recorded in the press.
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Question. Do you know Eric Hotung?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. When did you first meet Mr. Hotung?
Answer. I don't have a specific recollection. I think it was in the—it was in the last year and a half, 2 years, maybe.
Question. Did you ever contact Mr. Hotung to ask for a—contributions to the DNC?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you have a general recollection of how you initially met?
Answer. I may have been introduced to him by Pat O'Connor.
Question. Do you have any recollections of Mr. O'Connor contacting you regarding Mr. Hotung?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. And why did Mr. O'Connor contact you regarding Mr. Hotung?
Answer. I believe it was referring to a meeting that had been arranged for him to be introduced or to meet Mr. Berger, Sandy Berger.
Question. Do you know why Mr. O'Connor contacted you about this meeting?
Answer. I've been associated with Mr. O'Connor before, so I have worked with him before. And I don't know what his frame of mind was or what motivated him to contact me. I can only assume that he knew me and brought it to my attention. Why he did to the exclusion of others or if he, in fact, did contact others, I don't know. But I don't know his frame of mind. I can only make assumptions about it.
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Question. When—you just mentioned a moment ago that you've been associated with Mr. O'Connor prior to this particular communication. What did you mean by that?
Answer. I meant that, as a supporter of the DNC, Mr. O'Connor was actively involved with us and that I had known him prior to his mention of Eric Hotung.
Question. Just generally speaking, what types of matters had you and Mr. O'Connor discussed, aside from anything involving Mr. Hotung?
Answer. We would discuss visits maybe to the Chairman or events that may be held in Minneapolis and them having a long tradition of supporting Democrats in Minneapolis and Minnesota. We would—they would be a point of contact, as others were. And then, on another matter regarding Indians and the conversion of a dog track to a gaming casino, the purchase by the Delaware company to another group of Indians that would convert it to a dog track and the concern by Indians in Minnesota being—having a concern that the development of that casino would affect their gaming business. And other matters that I was not fully detailed or had detailed information about.
Question. What clients did Mr. O'Connor represent, to the best of your recollection?
Answer. I do not know the answer to that. I don't know for sure his relationship with Hotung, the Indians or who else he may represent for clients.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document which appears to be a photocopied page of telephone call slips. It's been marked F 0040703.
And the call slip second from the top is to Pat O'Connor from David Mercer, and it mentions two things. One is—first is wants David Mercer to follow up with him in relation to Hotung's several items. And the second is meeting with Don and Patricia Hotung.
Do you know whether you called Mr. O'Connor—first of all, do you know whether you received this call slip?
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Answer. I don't believe I received the call slip. I believe that I got an indication that he had called, but I don't—into the Chairman's office as opposed to calling me direct and being informed that he had called. But I don't know if it was related to this matter or at another time that he had called.
Question. Do you know whether you called Mr. O'Connor back?
Answer. Precipitated by this particular call message, I don't know if that's the case. But it's not to say that I, as stated earlier, did not have conversations on items as may be broadly described here.
Question. Focusing on the first item described in the phone message, following up in relation to the Hotungs several items, do you have any recollection of—of what this might have entailed?
Answer. I don't have a recollection, but it might have entailed the Sandy Berger meeting. It might have entailed them participating in an event, but I don't know.
Question. Were you aware of a meeting taking place between Chairman Dodd and Patricia Hotung?
Answer. To the best of my recollection, I don't recall that ever happening, or I don't remember the request as it's indicated here.
Question. Do you know Patricia Hotung was to meet with Chairman Dodd?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Did you arrange a meeting between Chairman Fowler and the Hotungs on September 14 of 1996?
Answer. Not that I recall or—nor do I have a recollection of being in the meeting or making those arrangements, no.
Question. Did you ever attend any meetings with either of the Hotungs and Chairman Fowler?
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Answer. Not that I can recall, no.
Question. Did you ever discuss the Hotungs with any governmental officials?
Answer. I don't believe I did, no.
Mr. REED. I assume the question was designed to mean in connection with their official capacity as opposed to——
Mr. WILSON. Actually, I—I will leave it very broad. I'm just trying to eliminate possibilities, whether you had any conversations about the Hotungs with anybody that was employed by the government in any guise or capacity.
The WITNESS. Other than being with Mr. Hotung and Mr. Simonton at the time that they—not they but Eric Hotung had seen Mr. Berger. And I may have introduced the two, but I don't have recollection of it, but I may have done that. I don't know.
But, other than that, I have—I did not make calls, I don't believe, to set up the introduction or anything like that. But I was present when—when—at least I saw them talking for anywhere from 8 to 10 minutes.
Mr. WILSON. This is submitted into evidence. It's been marked Exhibit DM–27.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–27 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether the Hotungs ever attended a White House dinner?
Answer. I vaguely remember that I may have seen them on a list; but I don't know if, in fact, they attended a dinner or not.
Mr. WILSON. I'm giving the witness a memorandum that's been marked DNC 3020787. It's to Chairman Fowler from David Mercer, dated September 14, 1995, regarding a meeting with Mr. and Mrs. Eric Hotung.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Having looked at this memorandum, do you know whether you organized the dinner between the Hotungs and the President and Mrs. Clinton on Friday of September 15th?
Mr. REED. I'm going to object to the form of the question—organized the dinner. I know what you're getting to. I think you might want to restate it, though.
Mr. WILSON. Yeah. Let me, obviously, back up.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. The memo refers to a White House dinner purportedly for September 15th of 1995 with Pat O'Connor involving the President and Mrs. Clinton. Did you have any involvement with helping to organize such a dinner?
Answer. I did not organize the dinner with the President and Mrs. Clinton. However, I may have included them on the list of people who were attending; and that was in conjunction with Richard Sullivan.
Question. Do you know what type of a dinner this was?
Answer. I do not know.
Question. Was it a—an event for a small number of people or was it a large number of people?
Answer. I don't know. For the record, I wasn't present at the event; and I don't believe I was in town at the time of the event.
Question. And the concluding paragraph of the memorandum, it states, we will be helping to set up a meeting with the Hotungs at the National Security Council, hopefully with Sandy Berger. Who do you recollect the ''we'' refers to?
Answer. It may have been—I don't know for a fact who the we refers to, whether it's we, DNC, or we the DNC, Pat O'Connor, et al. Or—I don't have a recollection of that. I think I'm passing on information that maybe was shared with me by Pat O'Connor and his making arrangements, but I don't know for sure that that's the case.
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Question. Did you request Chairman Fowler to contact the National Security Council to help set up a meeting with Sandy Berger?
Answer. I don't believe that I did that. Again, as is pointed out here, I think I made reference to information that I had; and I don't know that I particularly requested of Mr. Chairman—Chairman Fowler—of Chairman Fowler to set up that meeting.
Question. Where did the idea for a meeting with Sandy Berger originate?
Answer. I—to the best of my recollection—and I'm not all too clear—I'm assuming that it came from Pat O'Connor.
Question. Do you recall either Mr. or Mrs. Hotung ever asking you to help to set up a meeting with Sandy Berger?
Answer. I recall that neither of them ever did that.
Question. And do you know why Mr. O'Connor was interested in having the Hotungs meet with Sandy Berger?
Answer. I am not fully aware of why he would want that to happen or what his discussions with the Hotungs would have been in pursuing that interest.
Question. Do you have any general understanding of what this meeting was to be about?
Answer. I, sitting from a nonpolicy standpoint and position, assumed that he, being a British citizen and from Hong Kong, could give some insight as to the transfer from a British government or British possession to—back to China. But I don't know that for a fact. I was only assuming that, given the facts.
Question. Do you know whether a meeting between the Hotungs and Sandy Berger actually did take place?
Answer. As I alluded to earlier, Sandy Berger had sat in the vestibule or area, as I can best recall, for about 8 to 10 minutes with Mr. Hotung as a courtesy and heard him out; and then they left.
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Question. And where did this occur?
Answer. Outside of the Roosevelt room, I believe.
Question. And were you there at the time?
Answer. I was there at the time.
Question. Who else was in attendance?
Answer. Mr. Simonton, who I believe was also affiliated with the law firm of O'Connor and Hannon, to which Mr. Pat O'Connor is a partner.
Question. Was Mr. O'Connor in attendance at this——
Answer. No, he was not.
Question. The memorandum indicates that the Hotungs will be contributing $100,000 to the DNC. Do you know whether anybody at the DNC asked them to contribute $100,000 to the DNC?
Answer. I think Pat O'Connor informed us that they would be contributing. And I was sharing that with Richard Sullivan, as I believe I was traveling at the time and, therefore, was not around when the actual contribution was made. So I don't know that he was asked per se, other than knowing that Mr. O'Connor had informed us that they were doing so.
Question. Did you or the Hotungs ever discuss with the White House—I ask you if you just strike that, please.
Did you or the Hotungs discuss these meetings with the White House or the NSC or other officials before you knew that there might be a political contribution?
Answer. Can you repeat the question?
Question. Sure.
Mr. WILSON. I'll ask you to read the question, if you wouldn't mind.
[The reporter read back as requested.].
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The WITNESS. No, not to my knowledge.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. The memorandum states that Mr. Hotung is a British citizen that lives in Hong Kong. Do you recall how you knew this at the time?
Answer. I don't recall, but I'm assuming it came to me from Pat O'Connor.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. O'Connor provided any biographical information on the Hotungs to you?
Answer. He or Patricia's staff from New York may have sent me a bio.
Question. Did you have any contacts with either of the Hotungs after the meeting with Sandy Berger?
Answer. I don't believe I have, except I may have called to their New York home or office—I'm not sure which it is—to inform them maybe about the convention activity or, you know, some general operating business. But I don't recall on, you know, beyond that, any other exchange. And I never actually spoke to Mrs. Hotung; and I don't believe I've spoken with Mr. Hotung directly at any time subsequent to that or, for that matter, whether I did before other than to meet him.
Question. Did you ever request any additional biographical information apart from that which you mentioned might have been sent to you by the Hotungs?
Answer. Did I get more information other than the bio?
Question. Yeah.
Answer. Not that I know of or not that I—no. No.
Question. On the—the bottom of the memorandum that we've been reviewing, there is what—there is a handwritten note, which appears to state: Checks coming tomorrow. Do you recognize this handwriting?
Answer. I do not.
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Question. Do you have any knowledge as to what this refers to?
Answer. No, I do not.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–28 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–28 was marked for identification.]
Mr. WILSON. I have given Mr. Mercer a three-page document. It's titled: Richard Sullivan Call Sheet. The first page is marked DNC 3124452.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And I would like to refer specifically to the second page of this March 27, 1996, call sheet, which indicates that there are two calls from Mr. Mercer to Mr. Sullivan. The first was placed at 12:35; and the list says, please call, it's urgent. And the second is less than—3 hours later, and reads, please have Thomann stay off Hotung. Pat O'Connor will tell us when money is coming in.
Do you know what these messages refer to?
Answer. The first one, I don't know, although I was working on a—an event in New Orleans. And, as in many instances, there's issues that have to be dealt with and communicated back to the home office; and so it could be that.
Or, with regard to the second message at 3:15, I believe that Mark Thomann, one of our fund-raisers, may have been in Minneapolis at that point or Minnesota and was soliciting the Hotungs; and I was suggesting to Richard that he let them know that they were simultaneously already involved with donating back in Washington. And I may have gotten a call from Pat O'Connor letting me know that and me communicating that to Richard Sullivan.
Question. And what was the substance of the conversation between Mr. O'Connor and yourself?
Answer. I don't recall. I'm only gleaning that from—gleaning that from the message and note here.
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Question. Do you—do you know whether Mr. O'Connor conveyed the Hotungs' contribution to the DNC or whether it was the Hotungs who conveyed their contribution to the DNC?
Answer. I don't know for a fact because I wasn't there. I don't have a recollection—I know it was conveyed into DNC; but who actually did the conveying, I'm not sure.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Thomann had any other contacts with the Hotungs other than the one that's apparently referred to here?
Answer. I don't know, and I don't know for a fact that he had contact with the Hotungs in this instance as well. It could have been very well contact with Pat O'Connor, but I don't know—regarding the Hotungs.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–29 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–29 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know James Riady?
Answer. I know the name, and I may have met him on two or three occasions.
Question. Do you recall when you first might have met him?
Answer. I might have met him in 1993 as he was coming into an event, but I'm not altogether sure. It just would seem like a possibility. But I'm not sure that he actually attended, but I just have a vague recollection of that.
Question. And do you know what that event was?
Answer. It was the one we discussed earlier regarding the Creative Artist Agency event in 1993.
Question. And what gives you the sense that you might have met him at that time?
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Answer. Because John Huang I know was there, and I just somehow—I didn't see John standing alone. And just what I can envision as we sit here, I would think that Mr. Riady was there, and I may have shaken his hand as he was going to the door.
Question. And do you recall subsequent occasions of meeting Mr. Riady—James Riady?
Answer. I—the next time I believe I saw Mr. Riady was in 1996 at a—maybe a September event at the Sheraton Carlton Hotel.
Question. And were there subsequent occasions on which you met Mr. Riady—James Riady?
Answer. Subsequent to 1996?
Question. To 1996.
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever met Mr. Mochtar Riady?
Answer. No, I have not.
Question. Have you ever spoken with him?
Answer. I've spoken with neither Riady on the phone or—other than saying hello, how are you, and that's it.
Question. Did you ever arrange introductions for the Riadys to meet with government officials?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Did you ever receive any requests for your help to facilitate or help organize meetings between either James or Mochtar Riady and any government employee?
Answer. I don't believe I did.
Question. Have you ever met Arief or Soraya Wiriadinata?
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Answer. I do not believe that I have. If you told me who they were and had them in front of me, I'm not sure I could say I've seen them before.
Question. Do you recall ever having spoken with them on—either one on the telephone?
Answer. I don't recall.
Question. Do you recall ever soliciting contributions from either Mr. or Mrs. Wiriadinata?
Answer. I don't believe I've—having not talked to them on the phone or seen them in person, I don't believe I've ever solicited them personally for contributions.
Question. Apart from media commentary on the Wiriadinatas, are you aware of any of your DNC colleagues soliciting contributions from the Wiriadinatas?
Answer. No I'm not aware, except for maybe John Huang did, but I don't know.
Question. Were you aware of contributions made by them at the time that the contributions came in?
Answer. Could you repeat the question?
Question. Yeah. Were you aware of contributions made by either Mr. or Mrs. Wiriadinata at the time that the contributions were made?
Answer. There was one occasion that I know that they made a contribution, I think, around the '93—around the year of 1993; and then I'm not sure if it was '94 or '95 that they made a subsequent contribution. And I believe I was aware of that contribution coming in at that time.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document which is numbered DNC 1227446, entitled DNC Finance Executive Summary, dated 11/1/96.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
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Question. And it pertains to Arief Wiriadinata. And the very last entry in a list of entries of what appear to be contributions is one for November 9, 1995, listing a $15,000 contribution; and the fund-raiser is listed as David Mercer. Do you know why you're listed as the fund-raiser in this instance?
Answer. The check coming in to me and either me filling out the check tracking form or somebody else filling out the check tracking form and that being used to key punch in as to generating the report.
Question. Having looked at this document, do you have any recollection of the November, 1995, contribution being made to the DNC?
Answer. Other than documents that have been presented to me prior, I was not aware or would I have been able to recall that the—that my name was associated with the Wiriadinata contribution. I had a cursory involvement with, I believe, the November 9th, '95 fund-raiser and that myself, in addition to others working on the fund-raisers, were named as associated with that event.
Or I could have received the check knowing that I didn't know if they were attending the event or if that was a contribution that I had associated with them being tied to, so I filled out the tracking form or somebody else did using my name. So I'm not sure which is——
Question. Do you know who else was involved in helping to organize the November 9, 1995, fund-raiser event?
Answer. To the best of my recollection, it could have been Mona Pasquil and—and Sam Newman.
Question. Did you ever ask anybody to provide background information on either Mr. or Mrs. Wiriadinata?
Answer. I did not. But I'll state also for the record that them having been prior contributors I assumed—the thought or the question of asking for background information just never even occurred because of prior contributing.
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Question. Just facially looking at this document, the first contribution listed on the document we're examining is the one made on November 9 of 1995. Were you aware of earlier contributions at the time of this contribution?
Answer. I believe the Wiriadinatas I thought had contributed prior to 1995. And that's the recollection I have. And it could be under a corporate name or something else, but I don't know. I don't know why it wouldn't be or whether or not there's another page to this or—I'm just not sure. It just sticks in my mind as them having contributed before.
Question. Do you know whether either Mr. or Mrs. Wiriadinata ever contacted you after the November 9, 1995, contribution had been made?
Answer. I am, to the best of my recollection, not aware that they tried to contact me.
Question. Are you aware of any requests made by either of the Wiriadinatas to other DNC officials?
Answer. No, I'm not.
Question. Do you know of any DNC official seeking to facilitate visits to the White House by the Wiriadinatas?
Answer. No, I'm not.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Wiriadinata ever attended a movie at the White House?
Answer. No, I am not aware of that.
Question. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–30 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–30 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. When did you first hear the name Yogesh Gandhi?
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Answer. It had to be with a name—that name, it had to be in the press.
Question. Do you recall, prior to press accounting of Mr. Gandhi's political contribution, ever having spoken to him or met him?
Answer. No.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a letter that has been marked EOP 05587. It's a letter to President Clinton from an attorney whose name is Richard C. Agins, A-G-I-N-S. It's dated August 14, 1996. The single-page document does not have Mr. Mercer's name on it.
This—I'll give you a moment just to review this.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. This letter discusses a purported arrangement between Chairman Fowler and an organization wherein Chairman Fowler had promised two videotaped addresses in exchange for $50,000. Do you know of any such promise made by Mr. Fowler?
Mr. YEAGER. I think I have to object to your characterization of a letter. I think the letter speaks for itself.
Mr. WILSON. Well taken.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you have any knowledge of any of the issues discussed in this letter?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Do you know of—of a dispute involving—do you know any of the background of the dispute that's described in this letter? And, if so, what is the background?
Answer. Yes, I am aware of the background. And we were introduced to the—a representative or actually the president of Hermes Enterprises—his name is slipping me now—who was introduced to us maybe I think by a Christine Warnke of Hogan & Hartson, with the idea that he was interested in becoming a member of our trustee or major supporters program.
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Upon meeting Mr. Fowler, he had asked or made a request of the—of a videotape with Mr. Clinton featured in it to the Greek American community; and it was not anything tied to the contribution although, as this letter states, in his mind he saw the two things locked.
I first—it was first communicated to me by phone by, I think his name is John Kalargios, spelled K-A-L-A-R-G-I-O-S; and it was kind of shocking that he was wanting to have a return of the contribution because we could not facilitate the production of videotapes, which were never promised, but conveyed that we would make a request and to see about the feasibility of doing so.
This letter seems to be a follow-up, which I have never seen, to that background information that I've just described here.
Question. What did Mr. Kalargios tell you that Mr. Fowler had promised him?
Answer. Well, I believe I was in the meeting; and he had made the request for a videotape to the Greek American community, him being a member of the Greek American community.
I believe Mr. Fowler sought or I may have sought to see what the feasibility of getting a tape made, and it wasn't feasible, communicating that to Mr. Kalargios as well as to Ms. Warnke and letting them know that, you know, these things aren't—you know, one, we're not in control of the circumstances, so we can't speak to that. And, you know, if you gave the contribution based on that, then, you know, as far as I was concerned, return the money and let them be—you know, what he—proceed as he wants to.
Question. You've—you just referred to a meeting that took place. Who—who attended the meeting that you referred to?
Answer. I believe it was myself, Don Fowler, Mr. Kalargios, and I am not sure that Christine Warnke was there, but I believe she was.
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Question. And do you recall when that meeting took place?
Answer. I believe it was in December of 1996—excuse me, December of 1995.
Question. Do you know if any videotape of any sort was provided for the Hermes organization?
Answer. No, it was not—to the best of my knowledge.
Question. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–31 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–31 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know Ramesh Kapur?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. When did you—have you ever met Mr. Kapur in person?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. Where did you first meet Mr. Kapur?
Answer. I don't recall when the first time I met him is. Suffice it to say, though, I've known of him or I've known him or seen him over the last 2 or 3 years.
Question. Do you know of any efforts to organize a meeting between Mr. Kapur and any government official?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Are you aware of Mr. Kapur ever having met with Roger Johnson at any time in 1995 or 1996?
Answer. It's the first time I'm hearing it.
Question. Do you know an individual named Monsoor Ijaz?
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Answer. Ijaz?
Question. Ijaz.
Answer. I know the name. I don't know what he looks like, nor what he does or who he is.
Mr. REED. How do you spell that last name?
Mr. WILSON. I-J-A-Z.
The WITNESS. I thought it was A, but——
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether he made any contributions to the DNC?
Answer. I'm assuming, hearing of him in my department or seeing the name, that he was probably a major supporter of ours; but I don't know when he made contributions and what he participated in.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of whether Mr. Ijaz met with government—any government officials in 1995 or 1996?
Answer. Not to my knowledge.
Question. Do you know who George Chu is?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Do you know what his occupation is?
Answer. Not per se, no. Some counsel or—I'm not sure what his—I know he chairs or is president of some entity, the interest of which I don't know.
Question. Did you ever solicit contributions from Mr. Chu?
Answer. Yes, I did. In the winter—in the early part of 1997.
Question. Did you have any interaction with Mr. Chu before November of 1996?
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Answer. I don't believe I did, no.
Question. Do you know either Jim Irwin or Joseph Ruggiero of the IMPAC organization?
Answer. The names again.
Question. Jim Irwin or Joseph Ruggiero from the IMPAC—I-M-P-A-C—organization?
Answer. Is that out of New York?
Question. I actually don't know where it's——
Answer. There's a Ragio. I don't know if that's a misspelling, but——
Question. I do know the spelling of the name is R-U-G-G-I-E-R-O.
Answer. I don't know who that is.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of a meeting between Chairman Fowler, John Huang and Ambassador March Fong Eu in April of 1996?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know March Fong Eu—Ambassador March Fong Eu?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. When did you first meet?
Answer. I think I first met her in the fall of 1996, although I had heard about her I think before that.
Question. What were the circumstances of you meeting her?
Answer. In participating in one of our unity events in the fall, I believe it was October, of 1996.
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Question. And do you know whether she did participate in this event?
Answer. She did participate.
Question. Did you have conversations with her about participating in the unity event?
Answer. I don't think I did directly with her, most likely with David Lai, although I did talk to her briefly at the event.
Question. Who is David Lai?
Answer. He's an associate of Ms.—or Ambassador March Fong Eu's. In what capacity, I'm not sure.
Question. Do you know if Ambassador March Fong Eu ever provided fund-raising names to the DNC?
Answer. I don't know if she provided names. I know that, from David Lai's representation, that she was active in helping us raise funds. Whether—I don't know if she actually solicited them or what have you, but she represented those that did contribute and was attending as a part of that and may have written her own check. I'm not sure.
Question. What did David Lai tell you she was doing to help raise funds for the DNC?
Answer. I don't think he was specific as to the people she was calling or how she was calling.
My conversations with David Lai were the logistics of the event—when to come, all that business, and the names of the people that would be on the guest list and the amount of money that would be forwarded to the DNC.
Subsequent conversations have had to deal with wanting to meet with the current chairman, given the Asian community's sensitivity to the inquiries over the last 8 months.
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Question. And when have these subsequent conversations taken place?
Answer. Probably April or May I received my first call from David Lai expressing an interest and communicating the sorrow and the grievance of the Asian American community with regard to the inquiries made and targeted to the Asian American community.
Question. And is that April and May of 1997?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Okay. You stated earlier in this deposition that you've—you knew Secretary Ron Brown since your childhood. Did you have regular contacts with Secretary Brown while he was at the Department of Commerce?
11Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Did you ever discuss trade missions with Secretary Brown?
Answer. Never.
Question. Do you know Michael Brown?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. How do you know Michael Brown?
Answer. I believe the first time I met Michael Brown was when we were both working on his father's campaign to be the first African American Chairman of the DNC.
Question. And when was that?
Answer. That would have been in 1989, '90.
Question. How often did you speak with Michael Brown during 1996—prior to November of 1996?
Answer. Can you repeat the question?
Question. Yeah. How often do you recall speaking with Michael Brown in 1996—prior to November of 1996?
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Answer. So you're asking me within the year of 1996 how often we would be——
Question. Uh-huh.
Answer. Maybe, I don't know, anywhere between 5 and 10 times, 10 times being the high end—if at all.
Question. Are you still in regular contact with Mr. Michael Brown?
Answer. I wouldn't call it regular contact, but I call it familiar contact.
Question. Are you familiar with an organization called America's Fund?
Answer. Yes, I am.
Question. What is America's Fund?
Answer. America's Fund was started as a—following the paradigm of Emily's List, being that there were no comparable organizations. As Emily's List is to women, what America's Fund would like to be to the African American community in supporting African American candidates that were responsive to the—the urban policy needs of—concerning urban issues.
Question. When did you first become familiar with America's Fund?
Answer. Probably in 1993 or 1994. I attended a reception on Jackson Place, which could have been the kickoff to it, but I'm not sure if it was a kickoff or just an annual event.
Question. Are you aware of any meeting between Michael Brown and Chairman David Wilhelm at the DNC?
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Answer. Vaguely. I know Ron—I mean Michael has met with probably Chairman Fowler, and I know he's met with Chairman Grossman, excuse me, regarding America's Funds and—America's Fund and ideas. But it was a nonpartisan organization; and thought was given to whether or not they would change their charter to a partisan organization, which is currently what it's doing now is determining whether or not it's becoming a partisan organization as opposed to a nonpartisan organization, supporting Republicans and/or Democrats.
Question. What is Michael Brown's role in America's Fund? What was it when you first became aware of America's Fund? What is it now?
Answer. I believe a board member.
Question. Do you know who else—other board members of America's Fund?
Answer. Jeff Scruggs. Brian Mathes is the founder. I think America's Fund was based on a thesis he wrote while at the Harvard Business School or Harvard Law School. Carolyn—Carol Crawford. And off the top of my head the other names are not coming to me.
Question. Did you arrange the meetings you described between Michael Brown and Chairman Wilhelm and then later Chairman Fowler and Grossman?
Answer. I believe that Michael can call any chairman, given that his dad was a chairman, and they would be receptive to meeting them. I think I was then later informed that he was meeting and either I would participate or it was just an FYI.
Question. Did you attend Michael Brown's meeting with Chairman Wilhelm?
Answer. I don't recall doing so, but it's quite possible I did.
Question. Do you recall whether you attended Michael Brown's meeting with Chairman Fowler?
Answer. The answer would be the same. I could have, but I don't recall doing so.
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Question. Do you know if he had more than one meeting with Chairman Fowler?
Answer. I don't know how many meetings he's had, off the top of my head.
Mr. REED. And do you recall whether you attended Mr. Brown's meeting with Chairman Grossman?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And did you attend?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. Was there more than one meeting with Chairman Grossman?
Answer. I think this was one I did attend, and there may have been another subsequent meeting, but I'm not sure of that.
Question. And what was the substance of what was discussed in the meeting with Chairman Grossman, to the extent you remember?
Answer. It was about America's Fund and where it's heading and an update on that; the contemplation of maybe becoming a Democratic PAC, if you will, as opposed to a nonpartisan PAC; the Chairman's storytelling about his relationship with Michael Brown's father and—and that being the to-do with the Chairman's support of Ron Brown during his candidacy for the chairmanship back in '89 when I believe the current chair was then at that time the State chair of Massachusetts. And then, also, picking Michael's brain for outreach to the African American community, what we can be doing better, how we reach the generation coming up, the kind of staffing at the DNC.
Question. Did the DNC ever make contributions to America's Fund?
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Answer. We did not, as far as I am concerned or know.
Question. In any of the meetings that you participated in with Michael Brown at the DNC, were Gene or Nora or Trisha Lum ever discussed?
Answer. Not to my knowledge. The only time I knew of the Lums was through the papers and I met the two daughters at a wedding in Chicago.
Question. Whose wedding was it that you met the daughters at?
Answer. It was at Michael Frazier and Carla Dibble's wedding.
Question. Did Michael Brown ever discuss with you his position as president of Dynamic Energy Resources?
Answer. Only that he was going to that company, I believe, or was leaving or something. But it was in general reference. I didn't—I didn't know at the time who, who they were or what the company was.
Question. Did he ever discuss his relationship with Gene or Nora Lum with you?
Answer. We had dinner probably 3 months ago, and only mentioned that they were, you know, about the FBI deal, which I can't even recall what he told me, but it was only that, you know, that they were talking to the FBI, but I don't know what juncture, whether that was when they pleaded or what. But it was very brief.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a multipage document; the first page is DNC 3025392. This includes Chairman Fowler's schedule for July 12, 1995. And on the second page of the schedule at 11 a.m. there is reference to a meeting with Michael Brown, Minyon Moore to attend this meeting.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether you attended this meeting as well?
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Answer. I—I can't recall if I did or not. Nothing is striking me that——
Question. Do you recall attending any meetings with Chairman Fowler during which an individual named Alex was in attendance?
Answer. I believe—I mean Alejandra Castillo could be referring—this could be a reference to Alejandra Castillo. I mean, that's my only feedback.
Mr. WILSON. This document's marked Exhibit DM–32 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–32 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know either Nora or Gene Lum?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Have you personally met them at any time?
Answer. I don't believe I have.
Question. Do you know an individual named Al Wong?
Answer. Al Wong?
Question. W-O-N-G.
Answer. Not off the top of my head, no.
Question. Prior to November of 1996, did you ever discuss either Nora or Gene Lum with anybody at the DNC?
Answer. I'm sure with the press accounts, and being that given within the campaign finance stuff and them being, you know, high profile, that there had to be conversation in the halls or in the offices about, you know, getting the clips, reading the clips and going, Wow, the Lums——
Question. But prior to any press discussion of the Lums, do you recall any conversations with colleagues at the DNC about Nora or Gene Lum or Dynamic Energy Resources?
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Answer. No, I don't. Well, let me qualify that and say that I can't recall—I knew that they participated in the convention gala, the last night of the convention. But I believe I only knew that after press accounts were asking us for what they did to participate in the gala. But I could have known, even though I had nothing to do with the gala preparations at the convention, I could have known but I'm not recalling that they participated but I never saw them in Chicago, and I didn't, you know.
Question. Has Michael Brown ever discussed with you his business activities in Oklahoma?
Answer. Never.
Question. Did you recommend to the Lums or anyone associated with the Lums that they donate to a specific campaign or event?
Answer. Never.
Question. Do you know an individual named Ray McClendon?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Who is Mr. McClendon?
Answer. Mr. McClendon is a partner in the firm of Pryor, McClendon, Counts, et al, an investment banking firm, one of the minority—top 10, I believe, minority banking firms.
Question. Did you arrange a meeting between Chairman Fowler and Mr. McClendon in late 1995?
Answer. From the tone of the question, I presume I did.
Question. I'm actually, to be perfectly honest, not sure. Although I will give you a document that maybe will refresh your recollection a little bit.
Mr. WILSON. I've provided Mr. Mercer with a document that's marked DNC 3021859. It's three pages in length with three separate documents. The first page is titled, ''Memorandum for Chairman Fowler.''
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If you could take just a moment to review this.
Question. Do you recall preparing this memorandum?
Answer. I don't recall specifically but I know—I believe it is a memorandum that I prepared for Mr. Fowler, yes.
Question. Do you know whether a meeting between Mr. McClendon and Mr. Fowler did take place?
Answer. I believe it did, to the best of my recollection.
Question. Did you attend a meeting between Mr. Fowler and Mr. McClendon?
Answer. I'm assuming that I did, but I don't know for a fact that I did. I believe I did, though.
Question. Do you have any recollection of anybody else who might have attended a meeting between Fowler and McClendon?
Answer. The recollection that I have is walking Ray McClendon out of the building and talking with him after a meeting. I'm presuming it is this meeting, and I believe he was alone.
Question. The first page of this memorandum states that Mr. McClendon was upset that his firm and other minority-owned firms were not invited to bid on a Department of Energy project. Did you discuss this with Mr. McClendon?
Answer. Yes, I did. And, mind you, with other firms.
Question. What did Mr. McClendon communicate to you?
Answer. What you just read.
Question. Did he provide any amplification, beyond what's set out in the memorandum in front of us?
Answer. Other than, you know, being a minority banking interest, competing with the other firms. And he wasn't the only one. And I don't believe there was one African American considered. And it was my job to pass that information on for those who wanted to listen.
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Question. Did you ever contact anybody at the Department of Energy about this matter?
Answer. I don't believe that I did, no—no, I don't believe that I did. I could have, but I don't think I did.
Question. Do you know whether Chairman Fowler ever contacted anybody at the Department of Energy about the matter discussed in this memorandum?
Answer. That I am unaware of.
Question. Do you know whether Chairman Fowler, or yourself, contacted anybody in the White House to relay Mr. McClendon's concern that is outlined in this memorandum?
Answer. I may have done that into the political division, but I don't know who I would have talked to or who I did talk to. And it wasn't specific to the Energy Department; it was, you know, if you continue further in the memo, you know, affirmative action is a big concern. It has been in the paper recently. It has been in the paper over the last 4 years. And see it's in that context that it may have been conveyed to the White House. But I don't have a specific recollection of who I may have contacted on that issue.
Question. The second page of the three that I've given you is a memorandum from David Mercer to Chairman Fowler dated September 25, 1995, regarding a request of meeting between Ray McClendon and Malcomb Pryor. Do you recognize the writing at the bottom of this page?
Answer. I don't. It looks like notes from the meeting, though.
Question. One of the notations in the handwritten section is the words ''Ron Brown'' with an arrow pointing to present. Do you know what that's referring to?
Answer. I have no idea.
Question. Did Mr. Brown attend any meetings that you're aware of between Mr. McClendon and anybody from the DNC?
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Answer. Can you repeat the question?
Question. Did Mr. Brown attend any meetings between Mr. McClendon and anybody at the DNC?
Answer. Not to my knowledge.
Question. The notes also state that no contact can be made with officials at RFP.
Answer. Where are you reading from?
Question. In the top left-hand corner, the circled notes.
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Do you know what this would refer to?
Answer. I don't. This is the first, for the record, that I'm seeing——
Question. Sure.
Answer. This memo with the notes on top of it. Notes that aren't mine.
Question. Three entries up from the bottom of the page, there's another handwritten notation that says, ''want contract to propose how to sell USDE.'' Do you have any knowledge——
Mr. REED. I'm sorry; where's that?
Mr. WILSON. The third marked entry from the bottom of the page: Want contact or contract to propose how to sell USDE.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you have any knowledge of what that means?
Answer. I do not.
Question. There's also a reference in the handwritten notes here at the very top of the section of handwritten notes just underneath the circled entry that says, ''write 10 K a piece/year'' and then under that ''raise 30-50 K/year.'' Do you know what these figures refer to?
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Answer. I could only guess and that being that it was the history of support by Ray McClendon and/or Malcomb Pryor.
Question. And ''support'' meaning support to the DNC?
Answer. Correct, or in fact the reelect—at least it says an indication to the reelect. But it probably wasn't writing 10 K for the reelect, because the most you can write to a reelection campaign is $1,000, so I'm not sure entirely what that means.
Question. This second memorandum, the one that we've been referring to is cc'd to Richard Sullivan and Catherine York. Do you recall what their involvement in this matter was?
Answer. Other than Catherine York being his scheduler at the time, and Richard being the finance director, and the courtesy of FYI, I'm not sure how else they may have been involved as they saw fit.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked as Exhibit DM–33 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–33 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall any contact with a James Staffors who worked for American Home Products?
Answer. Not off the top of my head, no.
Question. Do you recall any contacts with an individual named James Belcher who worked for the Peat Rubber Company?
Answer. Off the top of my head, no.
Mr. REED. That last name was?
Mr. WILSON. Belcher, B-E-L-C-H-E-R.
Mr. REED. First name?
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Mr. WILSON. James.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall discussions with any of your colleagues involving concerns about a rubber plantation in Liberia?
Answer. Not that I—no. Just rolling back tape.
Question. I'm rolling through some fairly obscure subjects right now.
Mr. REED. Not for the Liberians.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. This will be fairly brief. Have you heard of the Ellicott Machine Corporation?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you heard of an individual named Bowe, which is B-O-W-E?
Answer. From where?
Question. He's a principal at the Ellicott Machine Corporation and I believe resides in Maryland.
Answer. I don't know who he is.
Question. Do you know Farhad Azima?
Answer. I know the name.
Question. And how do you know the name?
Answer. One, as a major supporter; and, secondly, I believe I flew with Mr. Fowler, as I believe Fred Thompson has too, on Mr. Azima's plane coming back, for the record, from Louisiana to D.C.
Question. Do you recall whether your travel on his airplane was reported as an in-kind contribution from Mr. Azima to the DNC?
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Answer. Not only do I not recall, I don't recall how it was arranged, handled, or whatever. I was just told that's how I was flying back.
Question. Do you know whether Chairman Fowler traveled on Mr. Azima's airplane on occasions other than the one you have just mentioned?
Answer. I've heard rumor that there may be another occasion, but I don't know for a fact when he's traveled on Mr. Fahad Azima's plane.
Question. How were in-kind contributions involving air transportation of this nature disclosed?
Answer. I don't know because I never arranged for private—I can tell you that the airline companies have donated or contributed in-kind and that's handled through the in-kind reporting forms, and I would assume that the private planes were handled the same way, but I don't know for a fact.
Question. On the occasion that you traveled with Mr. Azima, do you recall what you did regarding the travel on his airplane?
Answer. To qualify, I didn't ever travel with Mr. Fahad Azima. It was the pilot, myself, and Mr. Fowler on the plane. And I don't recall doing anything other than traveling on the plane, getting off and going home.
Question. Have you ever met an individual named Jeffrey Hirschberg?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Who is Mr. Hirschberg?
Answer. I believe he's a vice chairman at the Ernst & Young firm.
Question. Did you ever solicit contributions from Mr. Hirschberg?
Answer. Yes, I believe I have.
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Question. When did you first meet Mr. Hirschberg?
Answer. I can't pinpoint it. I believe it had to be from when I first started in 1993. I'm sure I met him at some point or it could have been '94, I'm not sure.
Question. Was Mr. Hirschberg designated a trustee or managing trustee at the DNC?
Answer. I'm sure managing trustee or one or the other.
Question. Do you know how much Mr. Hirschberg contributed to the DNC?
Answer. No, but I know that he was a—he was a loyal supporter of ours. But I don't know the numbers off the cuff.
Question. Did Mr. Hirschberg ever visit you in your office at the DNC?
Answer. I don't think with the expressed interest to come see me, but out of courtesy in seeing others would stop by my office to say hello and how are you and what's going on?
Question. Did you ever visit Mr. Hirschberg in his office?
Answer. I don't believe I even know where the offices are.
Question. Do you know Mark Nichols?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. When did you first meet Mr. Nichols?
Answer. The first thing I can remember is at the Unity events in Los Angeles, California, of 1996, October.
Question. Prior to November of '96, which would give you a fairly narrow window, did you help him set up meetings with any agency or administration officials?
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Answer. I don't think prior to the time I indicated I first met him that I had any dealings with him.
Question. Did you have any interaction with him in October or November of 1996, during which you helped to arrange meetings between Mr. Nichols and any government employees?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Are you aware of any meetings between Mr. Nichols and Chairman Fowler?
Answer. Not per se, no. I would not be surprised if a meeting took place between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Fowler, but I don't know for a fact that one did.
Question. Did Chairman Fowler ever discuss with you issues brought to his attention by Mr. Nichols?
Answer. As I was in touch with Mr. Fowler during the Unity event, or during that period of October '93, he could have brought something to my attention as he was involved with us on it. But I don't have any recollection of the chairman bringing anything to my attention regarding Mark Nichols.
Question. I may have missed that but I wasn't sure whether you said October of '93?
Answer. Excuse me, '96.
Question. You said '96, okay.
Are you aware of any contacts between DNC employees and the White House regarding taxes on tribal-owned businesses?
Answer. None whatsoever.
Mr. WILSON. I've provided Mr. Mercer with a memorandum, one page; it's marked DNC 3235646. It's from Don Fowler to Bruce Lindsey. The document does not have Mr. Mercer's name on it, to the best of my knowledge. And it involves a number of issues involving Native American tribal matters.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether you had any input into the preparation of this memorandum?
Answer. I can say without a doubt I had no input with regard to this memo, although I might have been blind copied on it. But I don't believe I was.
Question. Do you know if Bruce Lindsey responded to this memorandum?
Answer. I have no idea if he did or not.
Question. Do you know whether——
Answer. Or whether for that matter that he received it.
Question. Do you know whether Bruce Lindsey ever contacted the DNC about any matter involving Native American tribal issues?
Answer. I'm sorry; I dozed on that. Could you repeat?
Mr. REED. Actually, we should take a break in a few minutes.
Mr. WILSON. Absolutely.
The WITNESS. But I'll answer the question, and then take a break.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. The question was do you recall Mr. Lindsey ever contacting anybody at the DNC about Native American tribal issues?
Answer. I don't know of Mr. Lindsey contacting the DNC on any issues.
Question. Well, we'll strike those lines of questions.
Do you recall or do you know of Harold Ickes ever contacting anybody at the DNC regarding Native American tribal issues?
Answer. I don't know.
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Do you want to continue with Nichols? I can go——
Mr. WILSON. I've finished this line of questions, and now would be a very good time for a break. If we could go off the record.
[Brief recess, 3:26-3:50 p.m.]
Mr. WILSON. I'd like to mark this document as Exhibit DM–34 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–34 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. I'd just like to return for a moment to a matter we discussed very briefly a short while ago, and that is a project involving a gaming matter and a dog track in Wisconsin.
Do you know whether Patrick O'Connor represents Indian tribes who are involved in a dispute over a dog track in Wisconsin?
Answer. I don't know that for a fact, no.
Question. Did Mr. O'Connor ever speak to you about a dog track in Wisconsin?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what did Mr. O'Connor speak to you about?
Answer. He filled me in on the information I shared earlier, which were the parties involved in the issue, and I believe I drafted a summary memo regarding that and passed it on to Chairman Fowler, I believe.
Question. And who do you recall were the parties involved in the issue?
Answer. I don't remember, other than the Delaware company being the current owner of the dog track wishing to sell it, and then being angry that they couldn't sell it to this—or that there was resistance within the Indian community of selling it; and Larry Kitto being an associate of Pat O'Connor's who was involved with the tribes from Minnesota.
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Question. What was Mr. O'Connor's interest in the matter?
Answer. I think he was sharing what maybe Mr. Kitto had been sharing with him, which was what he shared with me.
Question. What was the relationship between Mr. Kitto and Mr. O'Connor?
Answer. I don't know per se what the exact relationship was other than both being from Minnesota, both supporting Democrats. I don't know per se whether they were client—I don't know who was representing who or whether or not he was a support—whether he advised Larry Kitto on issues. I'm not sure. I know that Larry was a contributor to the DCCC. I'm not sure if he actually contributed to the DNC or not.
Question. Are you aware of any contacts between Chairman Fowler and the White House regarding this proposed casino in Wisconsin?
Answer. I believe there was a memo, and whether or not it was delivered or not, from Chairman Fowler to Harold Ickes. But I don't know if there was discussion on it or follow-up or, in fact, whether Harold Ickes had received that memo.
Question. Did you help to prepare the memorandum that you just mentioned?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer two pages of documents. The first one is marked DNC 3013976, and it's dated Tuesday, April 23, 1996, and it's my understanding that this is a page of Mr. Fowler's schedule. Halfway down the page, 4:45, there is a handwritten entry that says, 4:45 p.m. arrive for meeting with Larry Kitto, Steve Hildebrand, David Mercer re: Indian fund-raising.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know where this meeting—first of all, do you recall attending a meeting with Kitto, Hildebrand and Chairman Fowler regarding Indian fund-raising?
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Answer. I don't recall attending this meeting, no.
Question. Do you recall attending any meetings with any of these individuals outside the Chairman's office?
Answer. No.
Question. Who is Steve Hildebrand?
Answer. I believe Steve was formerly the Midwest regional political director at the DNC.
Question. Do you know of any contacts between Chairman Fowler and the Department of the Interior regarding a proposed casino in Wisconsin?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Are you aware of litigation involving the Chippewa Indians that involves the DNC?
Answer. I'm aware of litigation around this issue, but I'm not aware of the Chippewa Indians as being a participant in that legal issue. I didn't know—I did not keep mind of the Indian tribes that were visited or tribe, for that matter, that was involved.
Question. Was anybody at the DNC following the course of the litigation that was going on involving the proposed casino in Wisconsin?
Answer. I would have to defer to Joe Sandler. If the DNC is involved, I would have to defer to Joe Sandler on that.
Question. Did you ever see any materials on litigation in Wisconsin involving a proposed casino?
Answer. I never received any material. I believe I was asked for documents associated with it that I handed over to Joe Sandler.
Question. And who furnished documents that you provided to Mr. Sandler?
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Answer. Who furnished?
Question. Who gave the documents to you?
Answer. There are ones that I drafted, or if I received any information about it, I passed it to Mr. Sandler, but I don't recall specifically being in receipt of documents. I do recall having documents relating to this that I may have prepared, or, you know, like this one, this memorandum or something, but I'm not sure. Joe Sandler would have to be consulted on what documents are in possession.
Question. Do you recall drafting any memorandum or memoranda for any DNC employees about litigation involving the Wisconsin casino project we've been discussing?
Answer. No, I don't think—all I was asked was for any documents relating to the issue that was being litigated, I presume, and that's all I know about it, other than I received a phone call last week from the Milwaukee Sentinel Tribune, or something like that, letting me know that investigators had released documents from the House committee to lawyers in the litigation, and then the lawyers in the litigation released it to the press, and the press was calling me to find out whether or not there was further—what other documents we were handing over to the House, the answer of which even if I had it I wouldn't have given, but referred them to the press department.
Mr. YEAGER. You were told that a House committee handed a Minnesota reporter documents related to this issue?
The WITNESS. That the House informed the attorneys, the attorneys being I don't know, ambiguous, that were working on the case in Wisconsin. And the Wisconsin attorneys had shared the information with the reporter that called me.
Mr. YEAGER. Do you know who in particular gave the documents to the reporter?
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The WITNESS. I didn't take names, and I was more focused on referring the reporter to the press and communications office than I was with the gathering of information.
Mr. YEAGER. Do you know what House entity provided the documents? Was it this committee or another committee?
The WITNESS. I presume that it was the House Government and Oversight Committee, because it was said in an ambiguous term as you are referring to, and given my involvement in the House, that that was the committee that he was referring to. They made reference to the memos that we are referencing now in the Milwaukee Sentinel.
Mr. YEAGER. Did they show these documents to you?
The WITNESS. No, they didn't.
Mr. YEAGER. Forgive me.
Mr. WILSON. No, no, now is the appropriate time to ask these questions. I was interested in the answer as well.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever discuss fund-raising among Native American tribes with Mr. O'Connor?
Answer. I had discussed with him when he raised the issue that Larry Kitto may be interested in contributing to the DNC in addition to the work he was doing on behalf of the DCCC. But I don't, to the best of my recollection, know that that ever came to fruition.
Question. Did you ever specifically describe how or discuss how any Indian tribal members could be convinced to make $1,000 contributions to a 1,000-per-head fund-raiser?
Answer. If I did, it was in the context of what I described as Pat O'Connor conveying to me what Larry Kitto's interest would be, and the feedback being that they would be interested in maybe attending a $1,000 event, to the best of my recollection.
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Mr. WILSON. I've marked this document exhibit DM–35 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–35 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know if anybody in Vice President Gore's office, or Vice President Gore himself, had any communications with DNC employees about the Wisconsin—proposed Wisconsin casino that we've been discussing?
Answer. The prospect is the first time I've heard it mentioned.
Question. Did you ever have any conversations about any Native American gaming issues with individuals on the Vice President's staff?
Answer. Not that I can recall.
Question. Do you know why—do you know whether Patrick O'Connor was opposed to the proposed casino at the Hudson Dog Track?
Answer. I think that it was a political situation as well in that the Governor, being a Republican, was being influenced by the Delaware company which may have been contributing to his campaign, and that the Delaware company, wanting to—losing a boatload of money, needed to sell this dog track which was not making any money, and actually losing, to the Indians, who were also Republican supporters of the Governor. I believe it's Thompson. And that—and so there was a political context in which it was in, and I believe the motivation given that was how can we get a hearing with those that we are supportive of, and that being the Democrats? And so that's the context that I perceived it to be in.
Question. Did you know contemporaneously that Mr. O'Connor sent a letter to Harold Ickes informing Mr. Ickes that members of Native American tribes were attempting to stop the approval process for the proposed casino at the Hudson Dog Track?
Answer. I would first characterize it—I'm not sure it would be stopping the proposal, but there's all complications which I never got into with regard to rights in land or land in rights and wanting to be heard as to the economic impact of granting the lands in right, which I believe is the purview of the Interior Department, and that it was their feeling that they had not had a hearing about that—to whom they needed to speak to, I don't know—but to inform them of what the economic impact of such a grant would be to neighboring Indian tribes.
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With regard to Pat O'Connor's communication with Harold Ickes, I believe that he informed me that he may have been in contact with Harold, but in what form and shape and the substance of which I'm not exactly sure.
Question. Did you make any calls to congressional staff or congressional Members about the Hudson Dog Track?
Answer. It's the first time you're making me think about it. I don't have a recollection about it. I could have, but I don't know that I did.
Question. Do you have any general recollection of talking to anybody outside of the DNC about the Hudson Dog Track issue?
Answer. No. And let me just preface, when you mention the Congress, I wouldn't even—when you're asking that question, I don't even know who I would call that would have a hand in trying to create an audience for an appropriate hearing.
Question. Did you contact anyone in the White House to set up or help to set up meetings to discuss the Hudson Dog Track issue?
Answer. I don't believe I did.
Question. Do you know who Tom Schneider is?
Answer. The name sounds familiar, but I can't associate it, probably because it is a common name, but——
Question. Did you have any conversations with John McCarthy, who's head of the Minnesota Indian Gaming Commission, about the Hudson Dog Track issue?
Answer. I—the name I have no recollection of, but when you mention that, there may have been somebody that put me on the phone with to give me a briefing on it, but—or a clearer understanding of it, but the name doesn't mean anything to me.
Question. When you refer to Mr. O'Connor putting you on the phone with somebody, what would the context of that have been—being situational, where were you located when the call was made?
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Answer. The DNC. Not that that person was sitting with him or me, but that he may have had somebody contact me to give me a clearer understanding what was going on and how to—and my sense, wanting to articulate to my supervisors or others what the nature of the issue was.
Question. Did you have any discussions or contacts with Ann Jablonski about the Hudson Dog Track issue?
Answer. The name doesn't sound familiar.
Question. Did you have any discussions with Tom Foley about the Hudson Dog Track issue?
Answer. The former Speaker?
Question. The former Speaker.
Answer. Not that I know of.
Question. Did you have any contacts with a man named Brady Williamson of the National Bankruptcy Review Commission about the Hudson Dog Track?
Answer. No, I don't believe I did.
Question. Did you have any contacts with Tom Collier, formerly the Interior chief of staff and now a lawyer in private practice, about the Hudson Dog Track issue?
Answer. No, I didn't.
Question. Did you have any contacts with John Duffy at the Department of Interior about the Hudson Dog Track issue?
Answer. Not that I know of. I don't know who that is.
Question. Was anybody at the DNC in charge of overseeing campaign contributions from Native American tribes?
Answer. I would not characterize it as somebody ''being in charge'' of working with Native Americans. But Adam Crain had given me memos and had, I guess, worked with that community to some extent. But I don't know if you could characterize it as somebody being a lead as comparable as I may have been to the African American community, or John to the Asian community. I'm not sure they could be characterized that way.
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Question. Are you aware of any fund-raisers that were targeted generally towards the Native American community?
Answer. I may have seen documents that were relative to events, but I don't know for a fact that we took in money from the Indian American community from an event or that they were actually fund-raising events. We had activity with them, but I don't know the specifics of that activity.
Question. There was a September 14, 1995, DNC event at the Washington Hotel. Do you recall whether you had any involvement in organizing this event?
Answer. I don't believe I did. I'm not even sure where the Washington Hotel is.
Question. Were you involved in helping to organize or set up a meeting between tribal leaders and Harold Ickes in 1995?
Answer. To not my knowledge, no.
Question. Did you attend any meetings with Harold Ickes?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. Did you attend any meetings with Harold Ickes that involved any Native American tribal issues?
Answer. Not to the best of my knowledge did I, no.
Question. Did Gretchen Lerach have anything to do with Native American matters at the DNC?
Answer. I don't know. All I knew her to be was the assistant to the executive director.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document. It is a letter from Tom Collier to Gretchen Lerach, number DNC 3015371. And it's regarding a Shakopee meeting at 2:30 on June 4.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall whether you attended the meeting that is proposed in this letter?
Answer. Two things: One, I've never seen this before; secondly, I know I never did attend this meeting.
Question. Were you aware that Indian tribes were considering forming a PAC to advance tribal issues in the political area?
Answer. I was not aware.
Mr. WILSON. This letter is marked Exhibit DM–36 for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–36 was marked for identification.]
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document of seven pages in length. The first page is numbered DNC 3245433. It is a memorandum to Craig Smith and Judy DeAtley.
Mr. REED. We don't have a copy.
Mr. WILSON. From Kevin Gover and Cate Stetson.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall ever having seen a copy of this memorandum?
Answer. I've never seen it, and I'm surprised about all the things I didn't know going on at the DNC.
Question. Do you recognize the handwriting on the first page of this memorandum?
Answer. I do not.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–37.
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[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–37 was marked for identification.].
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall whether any contributions from Indian tribes at the end of 1995 were used for media buys?
Answer. For the record, I don't know what campaign—what contributions were used for media buys, if there was a segregation or whatever. And I don't know particularly of any money directed from Indians or Indian tribes to pay for media buys. I'm unaware of that.
Question. Do you know if campaign contributions were ever delineated specifically for media buys?
Answer. I don't know that.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document, a letter numbered DNC 3245606 from Franklin Ducheneaux to Mr. Mercer dated July 27, 1995.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And I'm particularly interested in the first sentence of the letter.
Answer. So am I.
Question. Which states, ''I want to thank you for your card regarding the decision of Secretary Babbitt on the proposed land acquisition of the Hudson Dog Track for Indian gaming purposes.''
Do you recall sending a card to Mr. Ducheneaux about this matter?
Answer. What I vaguely remember or recollect is maybe sending a card saying, it was nice to meet you, look forward to working with you on this issue, and we'll do all that we can and hope to keep in touch. Those are generally cards that I will send out. Even the second sentence, the Minnesota tribes are grateful to you—David Mercer, I assume—and the Chairman for advising the President. I've never advised the President or the Secretary on any matters. So it speaks to the inflation, I believe, of the language here used by Mr. Franklin Ducheneaux, or whatever his name is.
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Question. Who is Franklin Ducheneaux?
Answer. I don't know. I vaguely remember receiving this or seeing this, and, you know, it was part—I took my direction or I took the request from Pat O'Connor on this issue. I didn't—I wasn't taking it from a range of people or whatever. Now people may have sent stuff in or talked to me. About the only guidance I took on the issue was from Pat O'Connor. So I don't know what his relationship is to any of the tribes, and not knowing all of the tribes or any of the tribes, only that he had an interest in it, presumably.
Question. Did you have any contacts with Secretary Babbitt or any Department of the Interior employees on the decision made at the Department of Interior related to the Hudson Dog Track?
Answer. I do not believe that I have ever talked to Secretary Babbitt, other than on one occasion during the Inaugural of this year; and Tom Collier, I don't even know what he looks like, or I've never called Tom Collier. Or others at the Department of Interior, I don't—other than B.J. Thornberry, I'm not sure who else worked at the Department of Interior.
Question. Were you aware of the Department of Interior coming to a decision that involved the Hudson Dog Track?
Answer. It's only now that I am refreshed that was communicated to me that the Interior Department made some decision. But even from looking at this, I'm not sure what that decision was.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you remember how the Secretary's decision was announced in this matter?
Answer. I don't even know that there was an announcement to be made or it was made. I should hang this one on my wall.
Mr. WILSON. I've marked this Exhibit DM–38 for the record.
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[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–38 was marked for identification.]
Ms. CLEARY. I'm sorry, the number is DM–38?
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know Richard Bertsch?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. And how do you know him?
Answer. I know him, or I first met him, during our preparations for the 1993 fund-raisers that I earlier stated that I worked on in connection with the inquiry regarding John Huang.
Question. What does Mr. Bertsch do for a living?
Answer. I understood him to be in the wholesale business of electronic manufactured goods.
Question. Did you ever solicit contributions from Mr. Bertsch?
Answer. I don't know if I personally asked him to write a check or raise, but more in the spirit like we approached John Huang, Nancy Jacobson, and I. And we did meet together with Richard Choi Bertsch on the first occasion to give him notice of our plans for the fund-raiser and asking for his help in identifying others that may want to participate in that fund-raiser or fund-raisers.
Question. Did you ever receive any background information on Mr. Bertsch?
Answer. I may have received a bio, but I'm not sure that I did.
Question. Do you recall ever having requested a bio for Mr. Bertsch?
Answer. I don't recall specifically, no.
Question. Do you know whether somebody else sent you a biography about Mr. Bertsch?
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Answer. I don't have a recollection, period, of whether or not we had a bio or I requested a bio or one was sent.
Question. Have you ever requested any assistance from government employees to set up meetings or help to organize meetings between Mr. Bertsch and government employees?
Answer. Not to my recollection, no.
Question. Do you recall recommending Mr. Bertsch to participate in an economic conference in Los Angeles?
Answer. That's quite possible. He may be on that list that you submitted for my review earlier this morning.
Question. Did you ever discuss contributions with Mr. Bertsch in conjunction with that conference?
Answer. Well, the—I don't know if it was in conjunction with. We were out there fund-raising, then it was decided that, in addition to attending the fund-raisers, the President was also doing a conference; and upon being notified of that, being asked to submit names for those who might be considered in participating.
When I sat down to meet with him, we did not know the economic conference was happening, and I had learned of Mr. Bertsch, again, as we had learned of John Huang, from prior, you know, being traditional donors or fund-raisers for Democrats. And that was the reason for the contact.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Bertsch made any in-kind contributions to the DNC?
Answer. To the best of my recollection, I don't believe he did, but I'm not altogether sure. I don't believe he did, though.
Mr. WILSON. Let me provide a document that might refresh your recollection at this point.
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I've given Mr. Mercer a memorandum from David Mercer to Joe Sandler. It's marked DNC 0292276, and about halfway down, it lists at least what appears to be designation of $2,500 for Mr. Bertsch for an in-kind contribution.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you have any recollection of this?
Answer. The memo looks familiar, and it is a record of various people providing either donations or in-kinds. And he is listed, but I'm not sure what it was for. Well, it says, hotel expense item, but I'm not sure what it's for.
Question. Without getting into any conversations or contacts with Mr. Sandler at the DNC, is this the format of memorandum that you would provide describing in-kind contributions for the Counsel's Office to review?
Answer. It's either something like this, or it's individual sheets, you know, or you could call somebody back in the home office and let them know, and then they fill out the form and submit it. So it comes in various forms. I'm not sure that there's a requirement for it to come in one form or the other, but to report in-kind contributions as you know them to be.
Question. And the form you're referring to, was that a preprinted form that would simply be filled out?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. On the second page of the three pages I've provided you, at the top there's an ''in-kind'' designation for a Richard Bertsch, hotel, and you're listed as the solicitor for a Federal contribution of $2,500.
Do you recall having had any contacts with Mr. Bertsch about this in-kind contribution?
Answer. I don't—I can't recall now specifically sitting down with him or being on the phone talking about it, but it's apparent that I probably requested of him an in-kind contribution.
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Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–39 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–39 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know Richard Park?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. And when did you first meet Mr. Park?
Answer. At the same time.
Question. Have you ever solicited contributions from Mr. Park?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. Have you ever received any background information on Mr. Park?
Answer. I believe we received or there's on file, or was on file a bio. I just vaguely remember seeing U.S. Woopon Corporation or whatever. Woopon is spelled W-O-O-P-O-N.
Question. Did you keep files of major contributors in your office?
Answer. Yeah, well—no, I didn't keep any individual name files, if that's what you're asking, of the contributors. I kept lists of the major contributors or our donors, which have subsequently been handed in.
Question. How did you keep track of, say, biographical material that you would have received on individual DNC contributors?
Answer. I kept them in a file, or I went and retrieved it from the trustee division of the finance division—the trustee program.
Question. Did you ever forward information you had received to the trustee division for inclusion in their recordkeeping?
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Answer. I'm sure on occasion I did, yes.
Question. And——
Answer. Both proactively and being asked.
Question. And in the event that you kept for your own purposes explanatory or biographical material on individuals, how did you file or maintain that information?
Answer. I'm not sure—as I said before, I had them in files, or I have them in a notebook, or in an event book or something like that.
Question. Did you keep a single file with biographical information of miscellaneous contributors?
Answer. And resumes and people that were interested in work, people that I was dealing with at that time, yeah.
Question. Was this a single file that you had put materials into, or did you divide the file up according to categories?
Answer. According to categories——
Question. Categories like resumes, bio?
Answer. If it was a bio, resume, sometimes I kept them separate; sometimes I kept them together.
Question. Did Mr. Park ever seek your assistance in helping to arrange meetings with administration officials?
Answer. Not that I can recall. And I don't believe he did.
Question. Do you know an individual named Mi Ahn, A-H-N?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. And who is Ms. Ahn?
Answer. She is president of Pan Metal Corporation, which I believe is in southern or Los Angeles, California.
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Question. Does she have any relatives who work for either the DNC or the White House?
Answer. Not that I know of.
Question. When did you first meet her?
Answer. I have trouble recalling meeting her, but I may have met her at one of our gala celebrations, either 1994 or '95.
Question. Do you recall ever having solicited contributions from her?
Answer. I don't specifically recall, but I remember being on the phone with her. And I don't know if it was a solicitation or not, because I remember learning about what Pan Metal Corporation does.
Question. Did you ever invite her to attend DNC events?
Answer. Probably the gala.
Question. I would like to turn and ask a few questions about what have commonly been called Presidential coffees?
Answer. What are those? No.
Question. Were you—are you aware that the President attended a series of coffees in '95 and 1996——
Answer. Yes I am.
Question. That included DNC fund-raisers?
Were these coffees a part of the DNC major donor program?
Answer. Yes, they were.
Question. Now, how—just to categorize what the coffees were, how would you describe what they were?
Answer. What I would do was describe the major supporters or trustee program, and among the activities of the major supporter or trustee program was the coffees. And I would explain the nature of the coffees as if to say that they were Christmas parties that you're likely to be invited to or other events throughout the year, convention activities. So I laid out the program. And the coffee was an element of the major supporters' program.
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Question. Did you ever suggest to individuals that if they contributed money, they might be able to attend a coffee at the White House?
Answer. As stated earlier, what I conveyed to prospective trustees or current trustees that were renewing was the activities of the major supporters program. And as I stated before in the record, if somebody wanted to—wanted to—you know, remove from their thinking all the other items that I suggested were involved with the trustee program and just think coffees and $50,000, then that's a way that they may convey it. But you had to be a member of the major supporters program or a prospective or, you know, current, but, you know, maybe helping us at a later date or what have you to participate in not only coffees, but in our other events as well.
And I'll give you an example. At the convention, if you were a major supporter, you might receive three different flavor passes as opposed to two flavor passes. So you know it was a package thing. And coffees, conventions, all of it were elements of that.
Question. Referring to the trustee or managing trustee designations that individuals were given after contributing certain amounts of money, how was the money that was contributed through the trustee program kept track of, if it was kept track of?
Answer. There were, I believe, budget sheets that Richard Sullivan supervised or the finance director, which I believe was him during the period that we're referencing, and what all the councils were doing or raising in addition to on an event basis would be maintained at the direction of Richard. And I'm not sure of all the subtleties or the implications or the management of that information and how it was presented or laid out or projected.
Question. Did you know at any one time how many managing trustees there were and whether they were up to date with their contributions?
Answer. From time to time, I may have been asked by a donor how many managing trustees there are, and I might have then gotten up and gone to find out. But at any given time, I didn't know how many there were. And on—it was a moving target in any event.
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Question. Who would have provided the information to keep you up to speed on the status?
Answer. I think the trustee program or the staff working on the trustee program would have the best count of how many people were at, say, 50,000 or a 100- or finance board members.
Question. So retreading ground that we might have gone over in your previous answers, but did you ever suggest to any individual that there was a quid pro quo of $50,000 contribution or any amount of money contribution for attendance at a coffee?
Answer. As stated earlier, I would describe the major supporters program, and the coffee was an element of it, and that's the way I articulate it to the people. I spoke to them on the phone regarding that, or in person for that matter. And you know, whether—how they—how they perceive that or how they wanted to rephrase that or whatever is based on their own perceptions of it.
Question. Did anybody else at the DNC articulate the description of the coffees in the same way that you did?
Answer. I don't know. I have never heard somebody say, you can come for $50,000, put it that way.
Question. Who—if you could indicate that one person or a couple of people were in charge of the coffee program, who would those people be?
Answer. Well, to put it back in the context that I have articulated, I don't believe that anybody was in charge of the coffee program. There were people who were staffing the trustee program; again, the coffees being an element of that; and the finance director having supervision over the finance division, which included both the trustee program and the coffees.
With that said, I know Ann Braziel was somebody that if you had somebody who was attending the coffee, that she would get the name, and you would give maybe a bio or, you know, two lines on the person so that they could provide that as part of the breakfast. And Richard would have the final list and determine who the attendees would finally be from the DNC finance standpoint.
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Question. Did you—if it came to your mind that you were going to suggest to a potential contributor or a past contributor that they might be able to attend a coffee, would you check with anybody in advance to see if that might be all right?
Answer. I was not the final arbiter of who attended coffees. I recommended or suggested names, and they would either be invited or they wouldn't. I don't recall being told that somebody could not be invited, but then again I may not recall that because it was a nonissue, being that the person wasn't going to be coming.
Question. Who did you recommend the names to?
Answer. I would give the name to Ann, and I would almost assuredly talk to Richard Sullivan.
Mr. REED. Did you ever speak to anybody directly in the White House about one of the coffees?
The WITNESS. I have never attended a coffee, except for I went to a breakfast that was attended by Vice President Gore, and I don't know that that was a coffee. It was with business council members. So I don't know who was our contact person at the White House regarding coffees.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever receive a telephone call or contact of any sort from the White House with the suggestion of somebody who might be contacted to attend a coffee?
Answer. Not that I can recall, no.
Question. Did you receive contacts from colleagues of the DNC of potential coffee invitees?
Answer. There may have been somebody in another division that said somebody was interested in joining the major supporters program. But off the top of my head, that was very rare and on off occasions, and I don't recall specifically anybody doing that.
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Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document that's numbered EOP 024249 that's headed ''Democratic National Committee Presidential Coffee.''
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And I refer your attention to the first full sentence in the memo which states that ''the purpose of this coffee is to raise funds for the Democratic National Committee.'' was there—was there any discussion between you and your colleagues as to how the coffees were to be described?
Mr. YEAGER. Pardon me, I'm sorry. I apologize for interrupting your question. Perhaps the witness could say whether he's seen the document before.
The WITNESS. I have not seen this document.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Okay. I just put this out to provide a sense for some sort of framework.
Did you have discussions with colleagues at the DNC about how you would describe the coffees to potential contributors and past contributors?
Answer. As far as I can remember, and I don't know if it was a formal discussion with the finance staff as a whole, but it was—we have a term called ''servicing events'' that are events that you invite your—you know, like a retreat. We have retreats annually down in Boca Raton, Florida, or Miami or wherever, and that the coffees were more of a service event in the articulation of it. And, you know, an element within the major supporter program is how I—how it was conveyed to me and how I understood the coffees to be.
Question. Would you categorize the coffees as servicing events or describe them as servicing events?
Answer. I would, yeah.
Question. Now, I think we may turn our attention to a couple of documents in a little bit that describe certain events as servicing events. I know that many coffees in spreadsheets are not listed as servicing events, and some events are listed as servicing events. Was there any direction that you ever received as to how you would—would describe fund-raising events vis-a-vis using the term ''servicing'' or ''not servicing''?
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Answer. No, there wasn't. It was, I guess, taken for granted, and you understood the nature of it.
With regard to how it is laid out on budget sheets, I don't know what were the determinations made in describing one event versus another. But I do know one fact, and that was, you know, like for the galas you—there was a big push to solicit funds in the coffees or other kinds of events. It was to go after those that were current trustees, those that look like they would be prospective. And it would be a nice orientation like we had other events, and that's how I viewed it and articulated it.
Question. Just referring to the document we have in front of you, which I do understand you have not seen this document, but did you ever receive communications from either DNC colleagues or from the White House that told you how or how not to refer to the coffees that were held at the White House?
Answer. No.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked Exhibit DM–40.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–40 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know who had the final approval in scheduling of White House coffees?
Answer. I don't even know who all was involved in the scheduling of White House coffees.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document marked EOP 035478. It's dated September 28, 1995. It appears to be a computer-generated generic letter. It's not addressed to anybody individually.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And if you could take just a moment to look at the text of this.
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Did you have, on your—the computer system in your office, a form-generated letter that would be sent out to coffee invitees?
Answer. Not that I can recall, no.
Question. Do you recall whether——
Answer. In fact, I think there was a—I think Anne Braziel may have provided the attendees with the final information of where to go and, you know, how to get in. And I don't know whether that was done over the phone or through letter. I'm not sure.
Question. Do you recall ever having seen invitations generated by the DNC to coffee invitees?
Answer. I have not seen this document. And to the best of my knowledge or—I don't believe I've seen others inviting people to a particular coffee. I just don't recall. I mean, there could be in the papers that, but I don't recall seeing that. And I've never seen this one.
Question. In the instances where you've spoken with people about attending a White House coffee, and where that person or those persons actually did attend the coffee, what did you tell them they would be receiving in terms of an official invitation, if you told them anything?
Answer. I'm not sure that I mentioned that they receive an official invitation, but they would be notified of the exact time and what gate to maybe enter or something like that. But I can't remember whether—maybe on occasion I had shared with them after getting information from Anne Braziel, or maybe Anne Braziel called them, I'm not sure.
Mr. WILSON. I've marked this document Exhibit DM–41.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–41 was marked for identification.].
Mr. REED. Is this a good time for a short bathroom break?
Mr. WILSON. Yes. If we could go off the record.
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[Brief recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever receive information from the DNC that projected income for the 1996 coffees?
Answer. I don't believe that I—specific to coffees, but I think that I have seen budgets, budget projections of the calendar year or, you know, what they may have summarized as what the anticipated income would be or revenue generating would be.
Question. Do you know why an entry for projected revenue was included in such documents?
Answer. I was not involved with it, so I don't know the rationale behind it.
Question. Did you ever have any discussions with anybody at the DNC as to how the figures that were the stated projections for each coffee were reached?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you ever see documents at the DNC for 1996 coffees that indicated in-hand amounts of money that had been derived from the coffees?
Mr. REED. Can we distinguish between before his Senate deposition and after?
Mr. WILSON. Yes.
Mr. REED. It might be useful, because I could be mistaken, but I do believe he might have been shown such documents during the course of the Senate deposition.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Yeah. And in fact before November of 1996, did you ever see spreadsheets or budget preparations that listed in-hand amounts of money for coffees from 1996?
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Answer. Yeah.
Mr. REED. If you are——
The WITNESS. That included in-budgets for all events and whatever that there would be—and what monies in and what monies out, what total is, yes, I would see those.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And did you ever comment to anybody about the in-hand and the projected dollar designations for the coffees?
Answer. Did I——
Question. Did you ever discuss those entries with anybody?
Answer. It could have been——
Mr. YEAGER. If I—I may be confused about the testimony. Did you testify just now that you have seen documents which indicate in-hand contributions with respect to any event or——
The WITNESS. Event for—we have listings of all events that may have been done, coffees, fund-raisers, whatever it may be. And there were—I believe—you know, I—you know, I can't see them in front of me, but I believe that I have seen them, and that they would have what money is in and what money is out. And they were status reports for us to be aware of to meet goals or what I presume to meet goals.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever discuss with any of your DNC colleagues the projected revenue and the in-hand revenue designated in these types of spreadsheets?
Answer. I may have. But I mean I don't have the specific recollection of there being a problem or you, you know, trying to resolve or, you know—I mean, I'm—I don't—it doesn't come to mind, but I'm sure I may have.
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Question. Given the—maybe this is a statement more than a question—that there were goals for various fund-raisers, if you had seen a goal for a coffee, it's my assumption that people would try and meet that goal. And if they didn't meet the goal——
Answer. There wasn't a coffee that I was in charge of trying to meet a goal. So there was never—I never had discussions about—nobody came to me and said, Mercer, you have to close out this event and close it and find the money for it. That discussion, if that's what you're referring to, I don't recall and I don't think ever happened. I didn't have responsibility over the coffees. So I didn't have those kinds of conversations.
Mr. WILSON. I've given the witness a document that's 5 pages in length. The first page is marked CJRO-0039. The document is dated 13 March 1996. It's a memorandum from Harold Ickes. It's to the Vice President. Mr. Mercer is not mentioned in this document. If you could take just a moment to look at the——
The WITNESS. Yeah.
Mr. WILSON. Okay. Providing the—Mr. Mercer with an additional document, which is Bates marked CJRO-0048, which is a spreadsheet page that has been produced, and that refers to fund-raising events in January of 1996.
Mr. REED. Well, I'm going to object to the characterization. It just simply says January, principal event source. But there's no denomination of it as a fund-raising event on its face.
Mr. WILSON. That's fair enough. There is no characterization it's a fund-raising event. Then there's no year listed.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. I just wanted to ask you. Have you seen, did you ever receive materials that listed fund-raising events that were set out in this format with the event and source, the date, the projected revenue, in-hand revenue, projected costs?
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Answer. I may have seen or been shared with documents like this, but I have never—I can't say, one, the first document you handed me, the memorandum to Harold Ickes addressed to the President, Vice President with the whole set of ccs, have I ever seen that before. Except for this spreadsheet, included in that, and the spreadsheet that you subsequently gave me looks like something that would come from the DNC.
Question. I just—I wanted to ask you a question that may need to juxtapose these two documents. On the third page of the first document I gave you, on the page that's marked CJRO 0041, there is an entry for January deposits under the major donor program?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Of $2,347,87?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. And in the second document, the January spreadsheet I gave you?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. There is an in-hand revenue for the month of $2.24 million.
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Admittedly, these are different numbers. There's a different between 2.3 million and 2.2 million on these two documents. But I'm just trying to get a sense of how revenue is kept track of, given that in this January spreadsheet, there are three coffees mentioned, each with an in-hand total of $400,000. was it your understanding that—what was your understanding over amounts of money that were listed as in-hand for coffees?
Mr. REED. I'm going to object. Obviously, I'm going to let David answer, but I want to state my objection clearly on the record.
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I believe the testimony has—his testimony has been in the range that he had no involvement or responsibility at all for the budgeting, internal budgeting process at the DNC, let alone any dynamic interaction between the DNC and the White House. Having placed that objection on the record, and if I'm wrong about that, David, certainly, you know, go ahead on the record.
Mr. WILSON. No, I——
Mr. REED. I'm a little reluctant—obviously he's going to answer any questions you have, Jim, but I'm a little reluctant to get into source of the nuances of these particular documents and speculate what they might mean and why people might put information on paper that may be consistent or inconsistent with what people really view these events to be. Having said all of that, of course I'm going to have him to answer any questions you have.
Mr. WILSON. Okay. I——
Mr. YEAGER. Allow me to object, also. It looks like, Counsel, you've testified to the documents and drawn some sort of connection between these two documents. And I don't believe that it's been established for the record that Mr. Mercer has any connection at all to, as Mr. Reed pointed out, to these documents or to the process in general. So I'm just concerned about some sort of misimpression on the record.
Mr. WILSON. That's a valid concern. And I—I'm not sure whether it's—whether I'm being too opaque for anybody to see where I'm going or not. I'm not so much interested in Mr. Mercer's knowledge of who prepared the documents or what they literally mean or whether they're accurate as to whether in reviewing documents such as the one we have in front of us, the January spreadsheet, whether you ever expressed any reaction at all to the way that money was disclosed in these spreadsheets. I mean, there are designations here, in-hand dollar amounts from coffees on three separate occasions of $400,000. And either $400,000 was realized from these coffees or $400,000 wasn't realized from these coffees. You know we're looking at these documents after the fact. But my question goes to whether when you looked at these documents you ever thought the coffee, for example, on 17 January was responsible for $400,000 of in-hand contributions.
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Mr. REED. I'm—with all due respect, I'm going to object again, because I don't believe there's a foundation that he looked at these documents in particular, that he was aware of them at all contemporaneously with events that we're talking about as opposed to during the course of the investigation. Having made that objection, David, you can go ahead and answer.
The WITNESS. I would only be guessing, as the objection has alluded to; not having involvement with the process, I would only be guessing as to how this is laid out and why it's laid out the way it is. And that is that there is some tracking of, you know, the major supporters, the details of which I don't know, but you're dealing with the major supporter's program, and there may have been a correlation of how successful it was, or how much the element of coffees along with other things was in increasing the membership of the trustee program.
But again, I really have to caution, because I was not involved even in discussions of preparing these documents. And so I don't know what the thinking was, both internally or externally regarding that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Is it correct to say that you were not responsible for providing the, at least to your knowledge, that you were not responsible for providing the raw numbers that were used in either of the two documents I've shown you?
Answer. Absolutely correct.
Question. Okay.
Mr. WILSON. I'll mark these for the record, the first one is marked exhibit DM–42. The second one is marked DM–43.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–42 was marked for identification.]
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–43 was marked for identification.]
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever receive memoranda that Mr. Ickes prepared for the President discussing DNC financial matters?
Answer. I may have on one or two occasions, but I don't recall specifically. And I doubt that I was on the distribution list.
Question. Were you ever aware that—were you ever aware of any agreement that would have the DNC providing Mr. Ickes with DNC financial information on a regular basis?
Answer. Can you repeat the question?
Question. Were you aware of any agreement that would have Mr. Ickes receiving financial information from the DNC on a regular basis?
Answer. I wasn't aware of an agreement per se, no.
Question. Did the Vice President host coffees for DNC supporters?
Answer. I believe he did.
Question. Did you ever recommend anybody to attend coffees with the Vice President?
Answer. I may have. Rarely. And I'm not sure specifically who I might have recommended.
Question. Do you know, apart from the fact that the principals are obviously different individuals, whether the—whether Vice Presidential coffees were regarded differently within the DNC than the Presidential coffees?
Answer. Other than that the VP coffees were, in my mind, and I don't know if this is the way it was, but in my observational mind it was more directed to the Democratic Business Council.
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Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document that's a number of pages in length. It's—the first page is marked EOP 055666. It's entitled, ''Vice Presidential coffee since April 1995.''
And I'm particularly interested in the last page of this document.
The WITNESS. Uh-huh.
Mr. REED. I'm sorry, the last page?
Mr. WILSON. The last page of the document, yes.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recognize the handwriting on this document?
Answer. For the record, I've never seen any contents of this document, nor do I recognize the writing.
Question. Okay. Did you ever have any discussions with anybody in the DNC as to how either the Presidential or Vice Presidential coffees would be paid for?
Answer. I never had that discussion with anybody or was aware of it as an issue.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked Exhibit DM–44 for the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–44 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Were you aware of a coffee that occurred on May 13th, 1996, that included a number of prominent bankers?
Answer. Only through press accounts.
Question. Did you ever have any contemporaneous knowledge of the May 13, 1996, coffee?
Answer. No, I did not.
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Question. Were you ever involved in any discussions at the DNC where it was suggested that Marvin Rosen was using DNC events to solicit clients for himself?
Answer. I've heard that in maybe a press account. I may have heard it as a swipe by one of the staff, but I never knew that, nor do I concern myself with it.
Question. Apart from the——
Answer. And——
Question. Subsequent press accounts, at the time, do you recall any conversations that you had with any individuals?
Answer. No. I only—because I can't distinguish it between what I read in the press and maybe somebody, you know, what I considered just taking a swipe, because I don't know of any business or his client relations or whatever he may have been doing, I don't know about it, so I didn't pay heed to it or attention to it.
Question. Do you know if the President ever requested the attendance of anybody at the White House coffees?
Answer. I'm unaware of that.
Question. Did you ever suggest to any individual a specific dollar amount in conjunction with attending a coffee?
Answer. In alluding back to past testimony earlier, again, I don't have any specific recollection of saying $50,000 for a coffee or mentioning a specific dollar amount to a coffee. But, again, in the context of the discussion of the major supporters' program and the activity of our coffees or major supporter's program, that the focus or an emphasis may have been put on the coffee, and they may have walked away with that impression. But I, again, discussed the coffees in the nature of the major supporter's program along with other elements of the program.
Question. Do you know if photographs were taken at any of the coffees?
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Answer. I think, as I stated earlier, I believe they were, but I don't know for a fact that they were.
Question. Did anybody ever make a request of you to attempt to locate the photograph taken during one of the coffees?
Answer. They could have, but I—I don't have a specific recollection of being asked for that.
Question. Do you know if notes were ever taken during the coffees?
Answer. I don't know of anybody who did take notes during the coffees.
Question. Did you ever receive or see copies of notes that were taken during coffees, any one of the coffees?
Answer. I don't believe I did, no.
Mr. REED. I'm sorry, what was the question?
Mr. WILSON. Did Mr. Mercer ever see copies of notes or notes that were taken during one of the coffees.
Mr. REED. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you have any knowledge prior to November of 1996 that the White House coffees were not on the President's public schedule?
Answer. I didn't know that. I should add, I also didn't think of that.
Mr. YEAGER. Do you know that now? I mean, is that——
The WITNESS. No, I don't know that now.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document, which is a single page from a spreadsheet. It's numbered DNC 1781613. And there is an entry marked number 14 on this document that refers to $515,000. And it states, D.C. coffee-Asian, 385,000 not in hand, 130,000 in donor directed from Duangnet Kronenberg.
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Mr. REED. D-U-A-N-G-N-E-T. And Kronenberg is K-R-O-N-E-N-B-E-R-G.
Mr. WILSON. And then there are five entries, PA-25, CA-30, FL-25, OH-20, and IL-30.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Are you aware of Ms. Kronenberg's participation in a White House coffee?
Mr. REED. I object because I don't know whether it's Ms. Kronenberg or——
The WITNESS. Yeah, I wouldn't know if it's Ms. or Mr., and I wasn't aware of the involvement of either he or she in the coffee—in a coffee.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you——
Answer. And for the record, I've never seen this document before. I don't know where it was produced and don't know really what it is.
Question. Did you have any contacts at all with either Pauline Kanchanalak or Duangnet Kronenberg about attending a White House coffee?
Answer. I don't—as I testified earlier, specifically to Pauline Kanchanalak, I did not, and I do not know Duangnet Kronenberg.
Mr. WILSON. I've marked this Exhibit DM–45 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–45 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you have any—have you ever had any interaction with Harold Ickes?
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Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. On what circumstances have you interacted with Mr. Ickes?
Answer. On one occasion, I believe I was part of arranging a dinner to meet with African American supporters at the Hay-Adams. On another occasion, he, as far as I can remember, was involved with a briefing dealing with the African American community. We often had briefings associated with our programs. And he was one of the speakers. And I met with him, I believe on one occasion to update him on the convention preparations. And a component of that was—the main issue was the labor component of that and how label—excuse me, how labor was being included or not included in the finance divisions supporters' base in the operations of the convention.
Question. How would you characterize Mr. Ickes' relationship with the DNC?
Answer. As somebody that was involved with the activities of the DNC.
Question. Did you ever prepare call sheets for either the President, Vice President, First Lady, or the Vice President's wife for calls to be made for fund-raising purposes?
Answer. I may have prepared calls for the principals, but mainly I believe I prepared call sheets for Vice Presidential calls.
Mr. REED. Calls of what—the question was for call sheets.
Mr. CLEARY. Did you prepare call sheets?
The WITNESS. That I prepared call sheets, yes.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And at whose request did you prepare such call sheets?
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Answer. I don't know specifically, but I believe it would have been directed by Richard Sullivan on—but I don't know—I can't remember who they actually went to and then to Richard or if Richard gave them to somebody. I'm not sure what the transfer of the call sheets or the, excuse me, the delivery of the call sheets were.
Question. Was it Mr. Sullivan who asked you to prepare the call sheets?
Answer. I can't recall that specifically.
Question. Do you know who else you worked with in preparing call sheets for the Vice President?
Answer. I was probably one of several that recommended names or prepared individual call sheets. And to the extent that others were doing it, it was in working with them so that there wasn't a duplication of effort probably that I would give. It may have been staff within the trustee or major supporters' program. And I would give them the call sheet so that maybe they didn't prepare the same name or that they gathered up those call sheets and gave them to Richard or they gave them to somebody else. But I don't know who in fact they were given to.
Question. How did you select people to be called?
Answer. People that I thought were strong supporters and who would appreciate hearing from the person that they so strongly supported.
Question. Did you keep track of the results?
Answer. No, I didn't. Although, it had been relayed to me, I think on two occasions, that they acknowledged receiving a call from the Vice President. You never knew when they were going to be done, if they were going to be done at all, so you had other pressing—so you never—it wasn't like you were waiting with bated breath to find out if the call got placed.
Question. Were the call sheets that you prepared ever returned to you with any indication as to whether the calls were made or not?
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Answer. Not that I recall, no.
Question. Did you receive any communication as to whether the calls had been made or the calls had not been made?
Answer. No one from the White House ever contacted me and said the call had been made and here are the results. As I stated earlier, to the best of my recollection, on two occasions, I got a call from individuals who had received a call to let me know they received a call.
Question. Did you provide any instructions with the call sheets as to where calls could be made from or how calls could be placed?
Answer. Not at all. That would have been none of my business.
Question. A term of art that's seen in some of the documents we've received is the media fund. Do you know what the media fund was or is?
Answer. I've had always a vague understanding of the media fund. I never knew whether that meant it was a separate account or whether it was an articulation that we communicated as in fund-raising, giving people a schedule or giving them an urgent thing to react to and a goal to achieve. It gives them a sense that they're connected, so I'm not sure whether it was one or the other. I rarely communicated or articulated the media fund, so I'm not altogether sure what media fund really is associated with.
Question. Do you know whether the DNC maintained separate bank accounts for specific purposes?
Answer. Not that I am aware of.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document. It has been premarked EOP 049239. It is a DNC finance call sheet for Vice President Gore. It's marked that it's from Richard Sullivan and Ari Swiller to an individual named Peter May.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
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Question. Do you recall whether you provided information—did you provide information to Mr. Sullivan or Mr. Swiller to help them prepare call sheets in this format?
Answer. I would have given Richard or Ari or whomever a call sheet that I had produced this one I've never seen before, although I do know the name Peter May, I don't believe I've ever met him, and it looks to be generally the format of a call sheet.
Mr. WILSON. I'd mark this exhibit DM–46 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–46 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever suggest to DNC donors that they make contributions to not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. I would say that I have been asked of organizations that might be involved in voter participation and whether or not—who they were or identifying them, and in addition I have also suggested that others make donations to nonprofit organizations.
Question. Did you keep a list of not-for-profit organizations in your office to send to people if they had requested possible places to contribute money to?
Answer. I may have kept a list on a note card or something at some point, but I don't believe I faxed it out. I could have. But it's only because I believe it was kept on a note card that would not be faxable. But I don't—I'm not for sure whether I've ever faxed something to somebody.
Question. Do you remember any discussions regarding donations by the DNC to Vote Now '96?
Answer. I don't recall a conversation about the DNC contributing to Vote Now '96, but I think that Vote Now '96 was an organization to which we would encourage people or ask about it to identify Vote Now '96 as an organization to contribute to.
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Question. Did you ever suggest to individuals to contribute to the National Coalition for Black Voter Participation?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. Did you suggest to potential contributors to contribute to Defeat 209?
Answer. I think I've had conversations about 209, and I believe out in California, when I was there for the Unity event in October of 1996, but I don't believe that I directed anybody or suggested to anybody that they make a contribution.
I may have communicated back to the DNC that there were—was an interest for possibly the DNC to contribute to vote now—excuse me, Proposition 209, and that may have been because a donor has raised the issue to me as to what the party's position was vis-a-vis Proposition 209.
Question. Do you recall whether you ever suggested that a DNC donor contribute to Participation 2000?
Answer. Oh, yes. That was more in my position of being a board member than a DNC affiliation, although there are informal relationships with Participation 2000, both in terms of hiring graduates of Participation 2000 or—or referring candidates to go through the program of Participation 2000.
Question. You mentioned just a moment ago that you're a board member. Is this you're a board member of Participation 2000?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. What is the organization, Participation 2000?
Answer. It's an organization chaired—or was chaired, I'm not sure of the current status, by Dick Celeste, former governor of Ohio, former Senator Bill Bradley and former Texas Governor Ann Richards. And rather than having a PAC that just donated contributions to candidates, I believe it was Dick Celeste and Bill Bradley's idea that there be a PAC that contributed to the education and the training of political participation and subsidizing that training of students that worked on campaigns. And so the Participation 2000 took these students through training and then slotted them in campaigns around the country.
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Question. Did you, DNC, as an organization ever make contributions to not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. Not that I am aware of.
Question. Did you participate in discussions as to whether the DNC should contribute to not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. I don't believe that I did. I don't recall, I don't think—and I can't think of, you know, I can't think of a situation that that would occur.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document that is seven pages in length, the first page is F 0046580. It states at the top ''Directed - Donor Checks Received to Date.'' And I'm particularly interested in the very first entry in this page mentions—has Mr. Mercer's name on a line next to a donor designated Sony Music Entertainment, Incorporated, date 24 October, and in the state column it's listed National Coalition for Black Voter Participation.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recall asking Sony Music Entertainment, Incorporated to make a $10,000 donation to the National Coalition on Black Voter Participation?
Answer. Specifically, no, but I believe that Sony did contribute and I was probably the one that solicited that contribution or suggested to Sony that they support the National Coalition of Black Voter Participation.
Question. Now, why would you be suggesting for them to support this organization, say, in lieu of making a contribution to the DNC?
Answer. They could have very well made also a contribution to the DNC, but I was in discussions where it was asked if people are interested in supporting the National Coalition of Black Voter Participation, that we identify them as a candidate for that. And what the discussions are between the National Coalition and the DNC as to why they would be on that list or be recommended as such, I don't know. But in any event, that's what I was asked to do, that if somebody was interested in giving to, you know, Outreach or Voter Participation, Get Out The Vote, whatever, that that's one of them that we would direct it to.
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Question. Is it your recollection that in the case of this particular contribution that Sony Music Entertainment approached you about making contributions to the not-for-profit organization mentioned here?
Answer. No, but I believe that they have an external affairs, community affairs, and that the discussion was not so much having overwhelming political contributions but that they are also dealing with external affairs, and that these are the types of organizations that they give to. And my mentioning that National Coalition would—we are friends or we—we appreciate the work that they do, and directing one friend to another friend.
Question. Did anybody at the DNC ever ask you to mention possible contributions to not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. I have been asked to identify donors who may be amenable to giving to voter participation organizations.
Question. And who would have asked you to do that?
Answer. Could have been Brad Marshall, could have been the political division, Richard maybe, but I think it would be at the direction of others down the hall. But I'm not sure.
Question. And when you say the direction of others down the hall, to whom are you referring?
Answer. Political division, Brad Marshall, could have been B.J., B.J. Thornberry, the executive director. I'm not sure.
Question. And why would they have been directing to you make contributions to an organization that was other than the DNC.
Mr. REED. We are getting late in the day. I'm going to object to the form of the question that he was ''directed'' to.
Mr. WILSON. Well, requested.
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The WITNESS. I don't know the answer, because I don't know what conversations took place between them and the coalition or any other of the organizations so I can't answer that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever participate in meetings between DNC employees and members of the National Coalition on Black Voter Participation during which contributions were discussed?
Answer. Not that I can recall, no.
Question. Do you recall whether there was any discussion of why the DNC would direct or ask people to make contributions to other organizations than the DNC at a time before the election when the DNC was trying to raise funds for itself?
Answer. No, I don't.
Mr. WILSON. Mark this document Exhibit DM–47.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–47 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever speak with Sean Fuhrer who is the director of Participation 2000?
Answer. Yes.
11Mr. MERCER. I've given Mr. Mercer a document that's marked DNC 1599069. It is a call sheet.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you recognize this to be a call sheet prepared for you?
Answer. It doesn't look like it, but I believe it is though.
Question. Did you have a standard format for call sheets prepared for you?
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Answer. Are you kidding me? If you could get somebody to do it, it was ad hoc, month to month, year to year. Whether you had somebody helping you or not it would change. But I believe this is a call sheet that maybe Sara Searles or Mike Standifer had produced.
Question. What kind of group is Participation 2000?
Answer. It's the one that we talked about earlier with the chairs being Dick Celeste, Bill Bradley and the one that I went at length in describing.
Mr. WILSON. This has been marked exhibit DM–48.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–48 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Prior to press accounts about a solicitation of a contribution from Warren Medov had you ever heard the name Warren Medov at the DNC?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Were you aware of any discussions going on at the DNC about a potential large contribution from Warren Medov?
Answer. Not at all.
Question. Did you ever provide names or addresses of not-for-profit organizations for either Harold Ickes or Janice Enright?
Answer. I don't believe I ever did that, no.
Question. Do you recall ever having received a request from Ickes or Janice Enright about not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. No. And I'll say not that I recall. It just seems highly unlikely and that's the reason for my saying no.
Question. Did you ever discuss any activities conducted by tax exempt organizations with White House employees?
Answer. Can you repeat the question?
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Question. Did you ever discuss the activities of tax exempt organizations with any White House employees?
Answer. I don't believe I did. And if I did, it may have been because I was invited to an event, you, the Ralph Lauren breast cancer event or something like that. But as it related to DNC or White House business, no.
Mr. YEAGER. Were you referring to a Ralph Lauren event by way of example or illustration or were you——
The WITNESS. I believe I attended a Ralph Lauren charity event for breast cancer as a guest. And you know, that was a social—there was a friend that invited me to attend.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Were you ever given bank account numbers for Vote Now '96?
Answer. Not that I recall, no.
Question. Were you ever given bank account numbers for the National Coalition of Black Voter Participation?
Answer. I could have, but I doubt that I was, that I was in receipt of bank account numbers. In fact, yeah, I don't recall ever receiving their bank account numbers.
Question. Did you ever have the bank account number for Defeat 209?
Answer. No.
Mr. REED. How long do we have to go?
Mr. WILSON. Probably about half an hour.
The WITNESS. Let's go.
Ms. CLEARY. Is there any way to shorten this? This is getting a little bit ridiculous after almost two full days.
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Mr. REED. Let's just keep going. I'm going to have to break in a few minutes to make some phone calls for scheduling purposes.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether the DNC was ever requested to provide a list of Chinese American trustees to the Taiwan Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the U.S.?
Answer. Not that I'm aware of.
Question. Have you ever met an individual named Andrew Shi, S-H-I?
Answer. Vaguely sounds familiar, but I don't know who that is.
Question. Do you know who Steve Boyd is?
Answer. If you can give me some context. Boyd just sounds familiar.
Question. I actually can't, and I would if I could. I can provide you a document with his name which might provide context.
Answer. Yeah.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document that's numbered DNC 1781772. It is a memorandum from Ari Swiller and Nancy Burke to Steve Boyd?
Answer. I have not seen this, and I don't know who Steve Boyd is. I'm going through my mental Rolodex and it doesn't ring a bell.
Mr. WILSON. This document is marked Exhibit DM–49.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–49 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you ever suggest that donations be made to the Back to Business organization?
Answer. Never.
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Question. Do you know what the Back to Business organization is?
Answer. Only recently through press accounts. And I'd have to even get—have my memory refreshed as to what its objective was. I've seen it recently, but I'm not sure what its objective was.
Question. Did you participate in any discussions about large scale media purchases during the latter part of 1995?
Answer. Not at all. Except to say that in large staff meetings we would be shown video of ads that were getting ready to go up, but I didn't participate in discussions of the buys or where the buys would be made or where they were airing.
Question. Did you ever discuss with potential DNC donors that you would like them to contribute to help to purchase media buys in the latter part of 1995?
Answer. I don't recall doing it. I mean, I could have if we were asked to. But I—I have no recollection of getting on the phone and calling people for media buys and having that kind of discussion with them.
Question. Do you know whether funds were ever advanced to state parties in order for state parties to purchase media, make media buys in the latter part of 1995?
Answer. I'm not aware of that.
Question. Do you know of a consulting firm called the November Group?
Answer. I do now through—I've heard of it probably over the last several years. I didn't have an association, but I certainly have an association now due to press accounts.
Question. What do you recall now about this November Group prior to November of 1996?
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Answer. Just being a consulting group and not knowing who the partners were or anything but just hearing of the November Group as one of many consultants here in Washington.
Question. Do you know whether the November Group performed any services for the DNC?
Answer. I don't know that for a fact.
Question. Do you know what types of services the November Group was able to perform or did perform?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know Martin Davis?
Answer. I know the name now from press accounts.
Question. Did you know Mr. Davis or of Mr. Davis prior to November of 1996?
Answer. No, I didn't.
Question. Did you know or know of Mr. Malchow, M-A-L-C-H-O-W, prior to November of 1996?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. How did you know Mr. Malchow?
Answer. I knew of him. I don't believe I've ever met him, but being our direct mail consultants at the DNC.
Question. Did you ever work with Mr. Malchow?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you know who Bill Hamilton is?
Answer. No, I don't believe I do.
Question. It's my understanding he's the director of political affairs for the Teamsters. Have you ever had any dealing with Teamsters or their employees as in your official capacity at the DNC?
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Answer. I may have placed a call, but I've no recollection of dealing with the Teamsters, and I say place a call like in preparation for the convention or, you know, somebody may have called me and that's quite possible. But I never had an ongoing relationship, if at all ever spoke to anybody from the Teamsters.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a fax transmission. It's on the November Group, Incorporated letterhead. It's to Mr. Bill Hamilton from Martin Davis, dated August 10, 1996.
Mr. YEAGER. Counsel, I don't see a Bates label on this document.
Mr. WILSON. This has not been produced to us by either Mr. Ickes, White House, or the DNC, and I'm not sure where this document was obtained from. It is a document that I've only seen in the last day or so. And it does not have Mr. Mercer's name on it, and perhaps I was going to ask him, first of all, about the second page of the document, which is a memorandum from Richard Sullivan to Martin Davis. If you could just take a second to review the information on it.
The WITNESS. I have.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether you helped to prepare this document for or with Mr. Sullivan?
Answer. I've neither seen any part of this document, nor did I have any—or provide any assistance in producing the document, creating the document and also producing it. This is the first I'm seeing it.
Question. Did you participate in any discussions that involved discussing contributions of money to state parties from the Drive PAC?
Answer. From this Drive Political Fund?
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Question. Yes, the Drive Political Fund?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you know what the Drive Political Fund is?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Did you ever provide any names of donors to either Ron Carey or any Teamster employees?
Answer. To the best of my knowledge, I never did that.
Question. Did you have any communications with either Ron Carey or teamster employees during your time in the DNC?
Answer. I don't think I've ever met Ron Carey, and I'd be hard pressed to identify somebody who works for the Teamsters.
Mr. YEAGER. If I could just note one thing about this document, on the first page it appears to be a date, August 12th, 1986 or is that a 96?
Mr. WILSON. I believe that's 1996.
Mr. REED. It is a bad fax, but on the second and third page it's the same fax notations and it appears to be 96. Third page has July 17, 1997, on it.
Mr. YEAGER. I see.
Mr. REED. It suggests that it was faxed twice.
Mr. YEAGER. While I'm interrupting I may as well ask, Counsel, has this document been produced in response to a document request issuing from this committee?
Mr. WILSON. I'm not certain of that. I'm not certain. I was provided this document by a member of our staff. I think somebody might have sent this document to the committee independently of the document request. But I am not sure of that in fact. I only have a couple more questions for you on this.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
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Question. Do you know whether anybody from the DNC ever contacted any of the DNC donors and asked them to make contributions to Ron Carey's Teamster presidential campaign?
Answer. I'm not aware of that.
Mr. WILSON. I've marked this document Exhibit DM–50 for inclusion in the record.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–50 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know of a committee called Teamsters for a Corruption-Free Union?
Answer. No, I do not. Let me qualify that to say there's been a recent document request and I believe I saw that as among the document—I mean, among the entities listed in that document request. But I did not know of them prior to receiving that document request.
Question. Prior to November of 1996 you had not heard of Teamsters for a Corruption-Free Union?
Answer. No, never.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a single page of handwritten notes that's marked DNC 3036428.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–51 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whose handwriting this is?
Answer. I am guessing that it's Richard Sullivan's because from a recent press account listing the notations on the top of here and referring to it being a Richard Sullivan document and this appears to be the original—a copy of the original that was referenced in an editorial maybe over the weekend or last week. So I would guess it was Richard's handwriting.
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Question. Having seen this, are you aware of any discussions about Teamsters for a Corruption-Free Union prior to November of 1996 that took place at the DNC?
Answer. No, I'm not.
Mr. WILSON. This document has been marked Exhibit DM–51 for the record.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Are you familiar with the telemarketing firm called The Share Group?
Answer. Yes, I am.
Question. Did The Share Group perform any services for the DNC?
Answer. I had only recently, as of June, found out that they did, and that we—I was working on an event in Boston that was scheduled for June 30th and they couldn't—they did phone banking for us and in the course of talking with them, or with getting a reference of using them, found out that the former President or President had been involved in the Teamsters. The current President or acting President is a George Bacharach I had known as a former candidate for the 8th congressional district of Massachusetts, who was helping us on preparations for that event and we had contracted with that company to do some phone banking for us. I believe the bill was $7,000. And that's what I recall of The Share Group.
Question. Before November of 1996, had you ever heard of The Share Group?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know an individual named Michael Ansara of The Share Group?
Answer. I now know the name from press accounts and I believe his name was mentioned in a conversation with the executive director of the state party of Massachusetts who, when I was asking about The Share Group, had told me about the circumstances around the Teamsters.
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Question. Prior to November of 1995, had you ever heard of Michael Ansara?
Answer. No, I don't believe I did.
Question. Are you aware of any discussions at the DNC or did you participate in any discussions where it was mentioned that the Teamsters were giving money to other unions? And this is prior to November of 1996.
Answer. Like giving money to the AFL-CIO?
Question. Yes.
Answer. No, I never knew that.
Question. Just two very minor things to sort of recapitulate previously. I ask you about DNC gala videos. Did you keep copies of the DNC gala videos yourself?
Answer. Now that you mentioned it, I may have a copy of the Ron Brown video that was—I believe he died in April of 96, and I may—and then we had a tribute at the gala to him. And I may have gotten a copy and/or also been requested to get copies on behalf of others that had an interest in getting that video.
Question. Do you know whether copies of this video were made available in any of the document production requests that you received?
Answer. I don't know that, and I will go back to my office and see if I have a copy and put it in production.
Mr. REED. I don't know if it was called for or not. I just don't know.
The WITNESS. I don't either. I can't recall it being called for.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know who arranged for photographers at DNC events?
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Answer. I believe our events directors or coordinators.
Question. Did your office ever call for a DNC photographer to attend a meeting or be in any event that was going on at the DNC?
Answer. Did I, myself——
Question. Did your office ever ask for a photographer?
Answer. The finance division?
Question. Yeah.
Answer. Well, I think the finance division has contracted with and called for photographers to take pictures at our events.
Question. Did you have in-house photographers at the DNC?
Answer. I don't believe we had in-house. I believe it was a subcontract.
Question. Do you know who the subcontractors were?
Mr. YEAGER. Counsel, I hesitate to object at this late hour, but I think we have been over this.
The WITNESS. I am not involved with the contracting. I have seen the guy and a different guy—two different photographers, but I don't know what the arrangement is and I can't even remember their names.
Mr. WILSON. I've given Mr. Mercer a document that's numbered DNC 3168075. It is a memo from Bobby Watson to Chairman Fowler and Chairman Dodd. And I'm most interested in a reference here to—at the end of the first paragraph, to copies of checks to an individual named Mark Klaas.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Were you aware or do you know if the DNC had retained Mark Klaas for any purpose?
Answer. I don't know who Mark Klaas is. I don't know know what he does and didn't know if we had a relationship with him, if at all.
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Mr. REED. I would also note for the record that there is no indication on this document that Mr. Mercer ever was the recipient of the document, that it was directed to him and that it would have been within miles of a reasonable purview of his duties and responsibilities at the DNC.
Mr. WILSON. Okay. This document is marked Exhibit DM–52.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–52 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. I'm reviewing a document that discusses a Fox Newscast event and I would give you a copy of it, but I don't have more than one copy right here. It discusses a hidden camera used to obtain a news report for Fox News.
Mr. YEAGER. Counsel, I would have to object. You are characterizing a document that I haven't had a chance to look at and neither has Mr. Mercer.
Mr. REED. Why don't we take a break and you go make a copy.
Mr. WILSON. This is the last question I am going to ask. I can pass it around or handle it any other way but rather than take more time with this.
Mr. YEAGER. Why don't you go ahead?
Mr. WILSON. I wanted to ask Mr. Mercer's for his characterization of what is in this document.
Mr. YEAGER. I would feel comfortable if you handed it to Mr. Reed to look at.
Mr. REED. I don't object to you asking a question, but let me just take a quick look at it.
(Document proffered to counsel and witness.)
Mr. REED. Have you seen it?
Mr. YEAGER. I haven't actually. I'd like to look at it when you're finished.
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Mr. REED. It's EOP 030601. We'll have a chance to look at it at the break and take some notes, but why don't we let Michael take a look at it. Why don't we let Mr. Mercer take a look at it and then you take a look and you may have some follow-ups later on.
The WITNESS. I've had a chance to look at it.
Mr. YEAGER. Can I have a chance to look at it?
The WITNESS. Sure.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you know that a hidden camera had been used to record a conversation between another individual and yourself regarding White House coffees?
Answer. Obviously after the fact.
Question. It states here that Lewis asked Mercer how much would it cost to sit next to Stephanopoulos at a dinner. Mercer respond $100,000. Do you recall having made that comment?
Answer. I don't specifically recall making that comment, but if I did, I believe it would have been in a very sarcastic vein, and that being that Stephanopoulos—I never remember ever seeing him at one of our fund-raisers, and I think it was at that point in the conversation of talking with Mr. Lewis, who was—it was getting to me that he was peppering me with questions that I may have responded to him sarcastically but I don't recall specifically that except the sense of being peppered about questions.
Question. Do you recall the context of Mr. Lewis—did Mr. Lewis ask to have a meeting with you?
Answer. Yes, he did.
Question. And do you recall, did you meet with him?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. Where did you meet with him?
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Answer. I believe it was atop the Hyatt Regency, Hyatt Regency restaurant.
Question. Where?
Answer. On New Jersey Avenue.
Question. And do you recall what Mr. Lewis specifically asked you?
Answer. He wanted an overall understanding of our programs. And so I took him through every program we have. I tried to educate him as to how we were structured and what the activities of our programs were.
And, you know, tried to—he seemed to be somebody who was needing to be educated, and so I tried to give him the best understanding I could, and also, you know, injecting some of my personal sense because it started to go there, in terms of broad sense of what's going on, and that was the nature of television.
Question. Was it your understanding that Mr. Lewis was a potential donor to the DNC?
Answer. It was my understanding that he was a prospective donor in addition to knowing how to participate in the process, or learning how to participate in the process.
Question. It states on the second page of this document that Mercer also told Lewis that if they attended congressional fund-raisers together that Democratic Members of Congress would understand that they should take Lewis seriously. Do you recall having a conversation with Mr. Lewis about attending congressional fund-raisers?
Answer. I don't think that's an accurate statement. I don't ever remember making that statement. And this appears to be secondhand information, so I have no recollection of making that statement.
Question. Do you remember what you did tell Mr. Lewis? About—first of all, do you remember whether there was a discussion of attending congressional fund-raisers?
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Answer. I don't recall a discussion about congressional fund-raisers.
Question. Do you recall whether you made any suggestions to Mr. Lewis about whether or not he would be taken seriously in any context?
Answer. I do not recall that, other than if he was a member of one of our programs, people would understand that he was a member of our program and be treated accordingly.
Mr. WILSON. That concludes my round of questioning.
Mr. REED. We need to take about a 10-minute break and then you have a few questions?
Mr. YEAGER. Yes.
[Recess.]
Mr. YEAGER. Mr. Wilson, are you finished?
Mr. WILSON. If I could just one last ministerial thing, and that is introduce the last document we were speaking about.
[Mercer Deposition Exhibit No. DM–53 was marked for identification.]
Mr. REED. Did you get some copies made?
Mr. WILSON. Exhibit DM–53, and I did not get copies made, which won't apply to you so much as you don't get to keep the copies anyways. And I apologize for that, but if you would like a copy.
Mr. YEAGER. I would like a copy at a convenient time. Actually if you are done with that ministerial act, I would like to ask a question, follow-up question about that document.
Mr. WILSON. I am done with ministerial acts and anything else, I think.
EXAMINATION BY MR. YEAGER:
Question. First of all, Mr. Mercer, on behalf of the Minority Members of the committee, the Members of the Democrat Party, I'd like to thank you for coming here today voluntarily and for the amount of time that you have devoted to this deposition and to testifying before this and other bodies. I know it has been a burden to you. And I'll ask you some questions about that later.
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Answer. Sure.
Question. But before we get to that, I'd like to turn your attention once again to Exhibit DM–53, and the subject that that document raises.
With respect to the Sheila Kaplan story, I guess I'd like to bring you out a little more on how you were approached and how the discussion, if any discussion, turned to the subject of coffees. Do you recall how you were approached?
Answer. I believe I received a phone call from Mr. Lewis asking if he could meet with me. And I don't know if we first met or he came by the office or whether I had just met him at the Hyatt Regency restaurant on New Jersey Avenue. And I don't recall specifically there being a discussion of coffees, but in the course of going through all of the donor programs and the activities, the coffees could have been mentioned. And, you know, what I noticed eventually with Mr. Lewis was his focus on the perks and benefits accruing to members of the—of the various donor programs and trying to elicit from me my perspective of how things functioned. And I tried to explain to him, you know, both functionally how the programs operated and to some degree there would be an overemphasis of certain elements involved in those programs that he would keep directing attention to.
So in the discussion I could have emphasized coffees with him, emphasizing coffees to be responsive to him. But I don't recall there being a discussion of coffees per se. But he did try and direct an emphasis to certain perks and benefits.
Question. So that may have affected the course of your conversation if he was particularly interested in one aspect of the major donor program?
Answer. Yes. And it, in fact, did from the standpoint that the questions—I felt like I was almost under interrogation and so many different examples that he would ask me for that I started to inject sarcasm into the conversation.
Question. Okay. You testified earlier with respect to coffees that they were a part of the major donor program, though one element of the major donor program. Was it your understanding that a supporter of the Democratic Party could not attend a coffee if that supporter didn't make a contribution of a certain level to the DNC?
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Answer. I don't think I ever addressed that issue. I think it was more were they members of the trustee program or major supporters program. Or in the case of the DBC, I mean, in general, it had to be the supporters of our programs who were invited to—or who would be recommended or suggested. That was the pool of people from which we drew to include on the list—- recommended list of participation.
Mr. REED. When you say you drew, meaning the finance department?
The WITNESS. Yeah. But from what I understand, there were other—there were requests made of other divisions for the people that they worked with and the supporters they worked with to participate in coffees. It wasn't just a finance division recommendation; there were other divisions that recommended participation or individuals to participate in the coffees.
EXAMINATION BY MR. YEAGER:
Question. You weren't aware of anybody who had been disinvited from a coffee because they had not contributed a certain amount of money?
Answer. No, I'm not aware of that or, for that matter, for any other reason disinvited.
Question. And you're aware that supporters of the DNC who did not contribute also attended White House coffees?
Answer. I am aware of that.
Question. Okay. You have testified at various points today about your efforts in among various Democratic constituencies in the country. Would you say that one of the goals of the DNC is to mobilize support from various constituencies within the party?
Answer. I would not only say that, but I personally believed that it's, one, traditionally not an area, at least the finance division. There has been times that I have been the only African-American on staff in the finance division, and it was an area traditionally that African-Americans or other constituents had not been involved in. So I took it upon myself and saw it as part of my job informing them of this vehicle for additional participation in the political process as well as with the party. So, to me, it was both an educational vehicle as well as a fund-raising vehicle.
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Question. You have just testified to your efforts among the African-American community, and you have given testimony earlier today about the Asian American community. Were there other fund-raising efforts not necessarily by you but by other members of the finance division directed toward Latinos?
Answer. Yes, there were.
Question. And Jewish Americans?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And women?
Answer. Especially.
Question. And seniors?
Answer. I don't know that to the extent we are discussing, but I believe there may have been one event or discussion of such.
Question. It was not unusual for various fund-raisers to direct their efforts toward certain constituencies?
Answer. Not at all.
Question. And so there was nothing unusual about fund-raising efforts targeting the Asian American community?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. One of the members of our committee, Congressman Condit, has asked that in each of these depositions we ask witnesses questions about the duplicative nature of their testimony and production of documents. I don't mean to offer you a conclusion; I'm asking you for your testimony.
Have you been asked by other investigative bodies to testify or give evidence on fund-raising and other matters investigated by this committee?
Answer. Yes, I have.
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Question. Who has asked to you testify and provide evidence?
Answer. The Senate Government Oversight Committee, the House Government Oversight Committee, DNC staff, DNC press communications office, the FBI, and I think that's it.
Question. Directing you toward the Senate, you were asked to appear for an informal interview?
Answer. That was the first occasion; and then I was invited to sit with them on an informal interview, yes.
Question. And you have been questioned by the FBI?
Answer. Yes, I was.
Question. And have you appeared before grand jury?
Answer. No, I have not.
Question. Okay. Would you say the questions from all of these investigative bodies have overlapped or been duplicative of the questions of this committee?
Answer. For the most part, yes.
Question. You have produced documents to your employer as part of this investigation, have you not?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. And to the best of your knowledge, the DNC has produced documents to the various bodies investigating campaign fund-raising practices?
Answer. To the best of my knowledge, they have.
Question. And that would include the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And the Justice Department?
Answer. I believe that, but because I haven't been before the Justice Department in any way or presented with documents, I can't be conclusive about that.
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Question. And they've produced documents in this committee also?
Answer. Correct.
Question. Can you estimate how much of your time you spent in responding to requests to this committee for testimony or documents? And I'm actually asking you to try as best you can to calculate the total number of hours you spent looking at documents, reviewing documents, preparing for interviews and depositions and actually testifying.
Answer. I'll state—to give you a sense, I didn't go home for Christmas—I didn't go home for Christmas vacation until the 27th in order to comply with the first search for documents; and a lot of that being that I was on the road, as I stated before, in '96 in California. So I came back to a whole series of requests that I had to meet.
If I can enumerate the period of time I've spent one by one and then the total will be obvious, but I would say probably 4 to 5 days in answering the first search, and that involved—it was at a time when I had to go through every—do searches on every name that may have been listed through the computer because the system had not been set up at that point where the DNC overall could do the search. So I had to go through all of my computer records, in addition to the paper. But it was the computer stuff that was more time consuming, and there were late nights and probably about 5 straight days of trying to answer the first request for documents.
There have been two subsequent searches for documents, I believe, maybe three more. I would say that those have totaled a combined 8 days of making sure that I was responsive to those and in going through, just making sure as a cleanup that I had been responsive to preceding document searches.
And then my hours in the Senate have been—I believe it was probably a half a day, if my memory serves me, of the interview; and I think I spent another 2-1/2 days interviewing—being deposed in the Senate.
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And then the FBI last week and then for about an hour. Then here for the last 2 days. And then for every day that I spend in—that I spend with a body investigating this, I spend probably an equivalent day or half a day with attorneys just getting in the frame of mind of going before those bodies.
Question. Are you taking time away from work to do all this work that you have just testified to?
Answer. I have. And it has been—you know, it has been a juggling act to, one, have it just hovering over you while also performing your duties; and it's just the whole aura, you know, of the media accounts.
One of the biggest things is that especially October, November, December, January of last year when the legal process hadn't even kicked into gear or the congressional committees had not been kicked into gear, every day we were involved, aside from raising money, in responding to the untold amounts of press inquiries every single day. So you—and trying to search back information or whatever. So that was additional time spent on this in trying to be responsive and informative as to past activities.
Question. Have you or has the DNC as your employer incurred expenses in responding to the demands of this committee?
Answer. Both have. There's an agreement for the DNC to cover my legal expenses, but if for some reason they decided—or decided to not pay those bills I'm ultimately responsible for them.
Question. And do you know if this committee has offered to reimburse you for your time or for your expenses?
Answer. I know of no such offer.
Question. If it's available to you, will you seek reimbursement from the committee?
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Answer. If it were available and I knew that was a financial recourse and I was in a situation where the DNC wasn't paying for it, it is certainly a recourse that I would seek out.
Mr. YEAGER. Okay. I thank you for coming today and for your testimony.
The WITNESS. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Just one follow-up question to Mr. Yeager's questioning.
Referring to the Fox News broadcast that we were discussing, you noted that you used sarcasm when you spoke to Mr. Lewis about perks. How was Mr. Lewis different than others who made requests of you about perks, people like Charlie Trie or Johnny Chung?
Answer. It was clear to me eventually that Mr. Lewis—and I don't think I've ever asked if he was or had given to political campaigns before or been involved—but it was clear to me that he didn't have any idea of how one would become a donor or participate in the process as a donor. And—but then they started getting very picky about, you know, exactly—almost as if he would lay out a contract and ask me to sign at the end of the conversation, you know, saying that this is what you would get.
And I don't believe that I've ever communicated to him—I tried to create for him the environment as opposed to any guarantee of certain things happening, as in this business we all know that there are no guarantees, so.
Mr. WILSON. Mr. Mercer, thank you very much for giving your time to come here.
Mr. REED. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 6:40 p.m., the deposition was adjourned.]
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[The exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 272 TO 383 HERE
[The official committee record contains additional material here.]
[The deposition of Betty Jane Thornberry follows:]
Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: BETTY JANE THORNBERRY
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: James C. Wilson, Senior Investigative Counsel; Uttam Dhillon, Senior Investigative Counsel; Miki White, Investigative Counsel; Jennifer Safavian, Investigative Counsel; Greg Zeller, Professional Staff; David Bossie, Professional Staff; William Moschella, Parliamentarian; Maria Wirsinich, Intern; Kenneth Ballen, Minority Chief Investigative Counsel; Christopher Lu, Minority Counsel; and Michael J. Yaeger, Minority Counsel.
For BETTY JANE THORNBERRY:
STANLEY BRAND, ESQ.
Brand, Lowell and Ryan
923 15th Street, N.W.
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Washington, D.C. 20005
THEREUPON, BETTY JANE THORNBERRY, a witness, was called for examination by counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. WILSON. Good morning. On behalf of the members of the Government Reform and Oversight Committee, I appreciate and thank you very much for taking the time to be with us here today. This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing this proceeding is a House reporter and notary public, and you have already been placed under oath; is that correct?
The WITNESS. That is correct.
Mr. WILSON. I would like to note for the record those who are present at the meeting of this deposition. I am Jim Wilson, the designated Majority counsel for the committee. I am accompanied today by Miki White and Jennifer Safavian, both with the Majority staff. Ken Ballen is the designated Minority counsel for the committee, and he is accompanied by Christopher Lu and Michael Yeager.
Ms. Thornberry is accompanied by Stanley Brand.
Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in a court of law.
If I ask you about conversations you have had in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words used in the conversation, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and then you may give me the gist or substance of such conversation to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of the conversation or only part of an event, please give me your best recollection of those events or parts of conversation that you recall.
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If I ask you whether you have any information about a particular subject and you have overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding it or seen correspondence or documentation regarding it, please tell me that you do have such information and indicate the source, either a conversation or documentation or otherwise from which you derived such knowledge.
Before we begin the questioning, I want to give you some background about the investigation and your appearance here. Pursuant to its authority under House rules X and XI of the House of Representatives, the committee is engaged in a wide-ranging review of possible political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law.
Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105–139, a copy of which you have received, summarizes the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and encompasses any new matters which arise directly or indirectly in the course of the investigation. Also, pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation. All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues, or questions which have the tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence, are proper.
The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House on June 20, 1997. Committee rule 20, of which you have received a copy, outlines the ground rules for the deposition.
Majority and Minority counsel will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask you questions after Majority counsel has finished. After the Minority counsel has completed questioning you, a new round of questioning may begin.
Members of Congress who wish to ask questions will be afforded an immediate opportunity to ask their questions. When they are finished, committee counsel would resume their questioning.
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Pursuant to the committee's rules, you are allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be stated for the record. If the witness is instructed not to answer a question or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Majority and Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If Majority and Minority counsels agree that a question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question. If an objection is not withdrawn, the chairman or a member designated by the chairman may decide whether the objection is proper.
The deposition will be held open subject to rescheduling for the purpose of resolving any such disputed issues.
This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the committee, which means it may not be made public without the consent of the committee pursuant to clause 2(k)(7) of House rule XI. You are asked to abide by the rules of the House and not discuss with anyone, other than your attorney, this deposition and the issues and questions raised during this proceeding.
Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the chairman. The transcript will be available for your review at the committee office. Committee staff may make any typographical or technical changes requested by you. Substantive changes, modifications, clarifications, or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for each proposed change. A letter requesting substantive changes, modifications, clarifications, or amendments must be signed by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications, or amendments shall be included as an appendix to the transcript conditioned upon your signing of the transcript.
Do you understand everything we have gone over so far?
The WITNESS. Yes.
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Mr. WILSON. Do you have any questions regarding anything we have gone over so far?
The WITNESS. No.
Mr. WILSON. I am prepared to begin some preliminary questions. Do you have any initial comments?
Mr. BALLEN. No, I don't.
Mr. WILSON. I will begin asking you questions concerning the subject matter of this investigation. Do you understand?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. If you don't understand a question, please say so and I will repeat it or rephrase it so that you understand the question. Do you understand that you should tell me if you do not understand my questions?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. The reporter will be taking down everything we say and will make a written record of the deposition. You are asked to give verbal, audible answers because the reporter cannot record what a nod of the head or another gesture might mean.
Do you understand that your answer should not be uh-huh, or uh-uh, or similar nondescriptive answers?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. If you can't hear me, please say so and I will repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question to you. Do you understand?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. Please wait until I finish each question before answering, and I will wait until you finish your answer before I ask the next question. Do you understand that this will help the reporter make a clear record, because she cannot take down what we are both saying at the same time?
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The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. Your testimony is being taken under oath as if we were in court and if you answer a question, it will be assumed that you understood the question and the answer is intended to be responsive to it. Do you understand?
The WITNESS. Yes.
Mr. WILSON. Are you here voluntarily, or are you here under subpoena?
The WITNESS. I am here voluntarily.
Mr. WILSON. Do you have any questions about the deposition before we begin the substantive portion of the proceeding?
The WITNESS. No.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Please state your full name and spell it for the record?
Answer. It is Betty Jane Thornberry, T-H-O-R-N-B-E-R-R-Y.
Question. Have you ever been known by any other names?
Answer. B.J., my initials.
Question. What is your date of birth and social security number?
Answer. [Redacted].
Question. And what is your current address?
Answer. [Redacted].
Question. How long have you lived at that address?
Answer. About 16 months.
Question. Did you attend college?
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Answer. I did.
Question. And if so, where?
Answer. Metropolitan State College, Denver, Colorado.
Question. When did you graduate?
Answer. 1988.
Question. Do you have any additional degrees? Did you receive a degree?
Answer. I did.
Question. And what degree was that?
Answer. I received a degree in political science.
Question. Do you have any additional postgraduate degrees?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Please briefly describe your employment history after college?
Answer. My first paid employment—well, I was elected to the city council in Craig, Colorado, in 1979, and received a minimal salary, $200 a month.
Prior to that I had done a variety of part-time work with the Aurora Recreation Department. I had done some waitressing.
Subsequent to that, to the city council election, I ran a statewide campaign in 1982 for State Treasurer. Subsequent to that, I became a Deputy State Treasurer for Colorado. After that, I ran the transition for the Governor-elect in November of 1986 until December or January of 1987. After that I became a Deputy Chief of Staff to the then-Governor of Colorado. I served in that position from 1987 until July of 1993.
I was then—I then became the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals Management, United States Department of the Interior. I served in that position for 6 months, and then became a Deputy Chief of Staff at the United States Department of the Interior. I served in that position for 2 years and then became the Executive Director at the Democratic National Committee in March of 1996.
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Question. Apart from your—well, have you spoken with anyone other than your counsel about this deposition?
Answer. Just to the staff, since I am the executive director, that I am not going to be here today.
Question. With whom have you spoken specifically?
Answer. Well, my assistant, Andrea Hopewell; my deputy to the executive director, Alison McLaurin; Joe Sandler, general counsel, Democratic National Committee; and Amy Weiss-Tobe, who is the communications director.
Question. Did you review any documents prior to this deposition for the purpose of this deposition?
Answer. I did not.
Question. How did you come to work at the DNC?
Answer. In January of 1996 Katie Whelan, who is the executive director of the Democratic Governors Association, asked if I would be interested in applying for the job of executive director. W-H-E-L-A-N.
Question. Did you receive any recommendations for the position?
Answer. I think some of the democratic Governors called. Other than Governor Romer, I am not sure who did. I was told, but—I was told that some had; I can't give you names.
Question. Did you interview with anybody at the DNC?
Answer. I did.
Question. And who did you interview with?
Answer. I interviewed with Donald Fowler.
Question. And did you interview with anybody else?
Answer. I interviewed with Senator Chris Dodd.
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Question. Did you interview with anybody that was not an employee of the DNC?
Answer. I did.
Question. And with whom did you interview?
Answer. I interviewed with Doug Sosnik, political director, White House. S-O-S-N-I-K.
Question. Did you interview with anybody else at the White House prior to accepting—prior to being offered the position at the DNC?
Answer. Harold Ickes.
Question. And when did you interview with Mr. Sosnik?
Answer. I think I interviewed with Mr. Sosnik toward the end of January 1996.
Question. Did you interview with Mr. Sosnik before you interviewed with either Senator Dodd or Mr. Fowler?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Who was the first individual that you interviewed with?
Answer. Mr. Sosnik.
Question. And after you interviewed with Mr. Sosnik, who did you next interview with?
Answer. Harold Ickes.
Question. And after Mr. Ickes, who did you interview with?
Answer. Donald Fowler.
Question. And after Mr. Fowler, who did you next interview with?
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Answer. Senator Dodd.
Question. Were you somewhat surprised that you were interviewing with people at the White House prior to interviewing with people at the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. How long have you worked at the DNC?
Answer. March 1996.
Question. And in a general sense, what are your job responsibilities?
Answer. I am the staff director.
Question. When you joined the DNC, were you briefed about the legal relationship between the DNC and the White House?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you receive any background briefings on separate functions of White House fund-raising and the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. During your tenure at the DNC, were the functions of the White House, the DNC, and the Clinton-Gore '96 re-elect campaign kept distinct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what measures were taken to keep them distinct?
Answer. You need to rephrase your question, narrow it if you can.
Question. Well, I am wondering, were there specific procedures in place to ensure that the separate legal fund-raising distinctions were kept separate from each other between the three entities?
Mr. BALLEN. Counsel, have you established a predicate that the witness was involved in fund-raising, that she would even know about that?
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Mr. WILSON. Well, I am just asking her if she does.
The WITNESS. In March of 1996, the only entity fund-raising was the Democratic National Committee.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether any staff was shared between the three organizations during your tenure at the DNC?
Answer. You need to tell me, you need to redescribe what you mean by ''shared.''
Question. I am asking whether there were employees that served either full or part-time in, for example, the White House and who are paid by the DNC?
Answer. There were between six and eight employees that were paid by the DNC who were considered volunteers at the White House.
Question. And similarly, were there any DNC-paid employees who worked with the Clinton-Gore '96 re-lect campaign?
Answer. Worked with or worked for?
Question. Well, worked for, work exclusively or a part-time status at the '96 reelect?
Answer. Not to my knowledge.
Question. Who do you directly supervise at the DNC?
Answer. I directly supervised everybody but the chairman's staff, the then-Fowler staff, and Senator Dodd's staff, and I did not have a direct supervisory role over the finance department, except for operational matters.
Question. When you first arrived at the DNC, who was or who were your supervisors?
Answer. My direct supervisor was Chairman Fowler. He was the day-to-day chairman.
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Question. And was Senator Dodd also considered a supervisor?
Answer. More indirectly. I reported directly on a day-to-day basis to Chairman Fowler.
Question. And currently who is your supervisor?
Answer. I report most directly to Chairman Grossman, because he fills the same capacity as Chairman Fowler, G-R-O-S-S-M-A-N.
Question. Did you during 1996 report to anybody at the White House on a regular basis?
Answer. I talked to people at the White House.
Question. Did you regularly prepare memoranda or any type of updated documents for people at the White House?
Answer. I may have.
Question. Can you recollect any specific examples of types of memoranda that you would have prepared for the White House?
Answer. I don't do a lot of memorandum. It is simply not my style. I don't produce paper. I produced one memorandum that detailed—rephrase your question. For the White House?
Question. I am just asking whether you recall sending any particular memoranda over to the White House, particular types of memoranda on an ongoing basis, or even specifically, a particular memorandum?
Answer. I don't think I did.
Question. What did you generally contact the White House about?
Answer. Scheduling.
Question. Did White House personnel frequently contact you?
Answer. I need to have a definition of ''frequently.''
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Question. Well, actually, I will be more, I suppose more general. Did White House personnel contact you? Who do you recall contacting you from the White House?
Mr. BRAND. What period are we talking about?
The WITNESS. My primary contact was Karen Hancox, H-A-N-C-O-X.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And who else contacted you from White House staff?
Answer. Much less frequently, but from time to time I talked to Doug Sosnik, and even less frequently I talked to Harold Ickes.
Question. And why did Mr. Sosnik contact you?
Answer. Generally for scheduling or to ask a question, general question.
Question. And when you say ''scheduling,'' what do you mean?
Answer. Well, we did, as you know, weekly meetings at the White House, and we would talk about who was going to attend, what time the meeting was going to be, reconfirm the details of the meeting.
Question. And were there other scheduling subjects that you discussed? I will ask that more specifically.
Did you have any direct role in scheduling, for example, either of the chairman's duties?
Answer. I did not.
Question. So is it your recollection that primarily when you were discussing scheduling matters, it was at weekly meetings at the White House?
Answer. Generally.
Question. How often did you speak with Mr. Ickes?
Answer. Maybe two or three times a month.
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Question. And what did you speak with him about?
Answer. He would generally call me as he prepared his weekly memorandum summarizing what had been generally dubbed as the money meetings. He would call me to get specific—to make sure that if he said X, that X was correct.
Question. And when he contacted you with requests for information, would you have staff respond directly to him if he was asking a particular question that you didn't have the knowledge for?
Answer. Generally, I would go to the staff or he would contact that person directly.
Question. And on occasions when you would make inquiries of the staff, would you call him back and provide the information that he requested?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did he contact you on whether financial information that was submitted in his memoranda was correct?
Answer. Sometimes, yes.
Question. And with whom would you consult on your staff to determine whether financial information was correct?
Answer. Brad Marshall, MA-R-S-H-A-L-L.
Question. And who was Brad Marshall?
Answer. He is the CFO.
Question. And what was or is his responsibility?
Answer. He is the chief financial officer at the Democratic National Committee, and as such, kept an accounting of all receipts and disbursements by the committee.
Question. Would you have conversations with members of his staff on whether financial information requested by Mr. Ickes was correct or incorrect?
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Answer. Generally, almost always I went directly to Brad.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Marshall would sometimes contact Mr. Ickes directly to respond to a request that Mr. Ickes had previously made?
Answer. I'm sure that he did.
Question. What was Senator Dodd's day-to-day involvement with the DNC?
Answer. Senator Dodd really didn't have a day-to-day role at the DNC.
Question. How often would he come into the DNC offices?
Mr. BRAND. I am going to object to that question on the grounds that I don't think this committee can ask questions having to do with a sitting Senator. It has been the precedent for 200 years as far as I am aware that those are questions the other body has to ask.
Mr. WILSON. Well, the scope of our investigation encompasses all fund-raising issues arising at the DNC, and certainly Senator Dodd is a very important part.
Mr. BRAND. It doesn't overrule Jefferson's Manual which says that if you have a question about the conduct of a Member of the other body, you have to refer it to the other body. I am going to instruct her not to answer.
Mr. WILSON. If you would, please, note the objection and prepare an index of the objection for future reference.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. What were Mr. Fowler's responsibilities at the DNC?
Answer. He was the day-to-day chairman.
Question. Do you currently have any assistants?
Answer. Do I currently——
Question. Do you currently have any assistants directly under your supervision?
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Answer. Do I have assistants?
Question. Yes. In your inner office.
Answer. I have Andrea Hopewell, H-O-P-E-W-E-L-L, acts as my executive assistant. Alison McLaurin, M-C-L-A-U-R-I-N, is deputy to the chief of staff.
Question. Did you hire these individuals?
Answer. I did.
Question. And have these employees been with you since you began working at the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. Who initially did you have working for you for your inner office staff?
Answer. Gretchen Lerach, L-E-R-A-C-H, was my executive assistant from the time I came to the DNC in March of 1996 until after the election, mid-November 1996. Jake Siewert, S-I-E or E-I-W-E-R-T, was deputy to the chief of staff from April until, April of 1996 to January of 1997. And then for a short time I had a temporary executive assistant from about mid-November 1996 to about the end of January 1997. Her name is Michele Lane, L-A-N-E.
Question. I would like to turn for a moment to training procedures at the DNC. Are training programs, assuming that there are programs, and I would like you to comment as to whether there are or not, are they set up individually for each department in the DNC?
Answer. We have a staff orientation for new employees.
Question. And what does that consist of?
Answer. To familiarize people with what kind of benefits the DNC offers, what our vacation policy is, what our sick leave policy is, and to generally apprise them of what our operating procedures are at the DNC.
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Question. Do all new employees go through the training procedure?
Answer. I wouldn't say all.
Question. Do the majority of new hires go through that training procedure?
Answer. Hopefully.
Question. And you mentioned, and I don't recall precisely what you said at the end of your answer, but aside from the sort of bureaucratic aspect of becoming a new employee at the DNC, that there was some orientation as to how the department, how the DNC actually functioned, what did that consist of?
Answer. This was not about how the DNC functioned; this was a new employee orientation about operational aspects of the DNC.
Question. Are you aware of individual departments having specific training programs?
Answer. The legal department, in conjunction with the finance division, did training for the fund-raisers employed by the finance division.
Question. And what did that consist of?
Answer. A briefing by the general counsel on the legal requirements with regard to fund-raising.
Question. In addition to—was this an oral briefing?
Answer. It was.
Question. Were written materials submitted in conjunction with the briefing?
Answer. I believe a memorandum produced by Joseph Sandler was distributed at the trainings.
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Question. And how long did the training take?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. And you mentioned that Mr. Sandler prepared a memorandum. Was he in charge of the training program?
Answer. He—I'm not sure if in charge is the right description. He prepared the legal guidelines for the staff and did—he and Neil Reiff, the deputy general counsel at the DNC, did the trainings, it is my understanding. R-E-I-F-F.
Question. I am showing the witness a document, which is titled, ''Legal Overview for Campaign Staff,'' and if you would take a moment.
I provided you a very lengthy document and I was asking you, if you would, just to review the first page of this document, or any pages you want, obviously, but I am going to ask you some questions about the first page. This document is pre-Bates marked DNC 1485568.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. On the first page of this particular document, it mentions that there are five categories of why it matters to comply with the law, and I was wondering whether there were any discussions or whether you participated in any discussions about the general overview of legal compliance with campaign finance laws?
Answer. Can you restate your question?
Question. Just did you participate in any conversations or discussions about the basics of legal compliance, the subject matter of the first page of this memorandum?
Answer. First of all, I'm not familiar with this document.
Question. Have you seen this document before?
Answer. I am not sure that I have ever seen this document before. This looks like a part of one of our training manuals. This is not the document that I was referring to.
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Question. Did you yourself receive training manuals from the finance staff?
Answer. I received copies of the legal guidelines, a memorandum I think that my memory is, it was entitled ''Legal guidelines.''
Question. And did you participate in any discussions or conversations with other DNC employees on the memoranda that you received pertaining to the legal guidelines, finance legal guidelines?
Answer. As I was being briefed and orienting myself into the DNC, I did sit down with Joe Sandler, myself, and asked him to give me any documents that I could use to study and to make sure that I was familiar with all of the legal guidelines.
Mr. WILSON. I would like to mark this exhibit and submit it for the record, please. It is marked as BJT–1.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of the deposition.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know what the DNC Training Academy is?
Answer. I know generally what the DNC Training Academy is.
Question. What is that?
Answer. We ran five, I believe, in the last cycle. They were a multiday, I think they ran for 5 days, multitrack campaign school training.
Question. And where did they take place?
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Answer. They took place across the country.
Question. And who—do you recall where precisely the academies took place?
Answer. I think there was only one done while I was executive director, and it was either in St. Louis or Kansas City. I can't remember. I'm sorry.
Question. Did all new finance employees participate in the training academy?
Answer. No. You're confusing.
Question. Who did participate in the training academy?
Answer. They were activists from across the country.
Question. And who would be—how was it determined who would be invited to the training academy procedures?
Answer. I believe that was done through State parties who, if there was a training that was going to happen in St. Louis, that the surrounding States would be encouraged to publicize the training.
Question. Did the DNC Training Academy events have anything to do with campaign finance issues?
Answer. I did not participate in a training academy.
Question. Was the DNC fund-raising divided into two major parts, not to be mysterious, was a direct mail component and a major donor component to the fund-raising?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. And what is the distinction between these two categories?
Answer. Well, the direct mail was generally aimed at smaller contributions. Generally, $100 and below. I think they may use a $250 benchmark. And those solicitations are all made either via direct mail, some form of a letter, correspondence or through telemarketing.
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Question. And the major donor program?
Answer. The major donor program is the finance division at the DNC, and generally a more direct form of solicitation. Finance put on events, fund-raising events. Direct mail would not.
Question. Now, you mentioned that the major donor program was part of the finance division. Is the direct mail program also under the control of the finance division?
Answer. I view it as a separate division.
Question. And who are the principals in terms of supervisory authority for each of the two components? And I ask that for the 1996 time frame exclusively.
Answer. Rephrase your question.
Question. Who was in charge of each component during 1996?
Answer. Marvin Rosen was the national finance chair, R-O-S-E-N. Richard Sullivan, S-U-L-L-I-V-A-N, was the finance director.
Question. And do those two individuals correspond with supervisory roles over the one component or the other, or are they simply the supervisors of fund-raising as a whole?
Answer. Well, that is a little ambiguous.
Question. I think what I am really asking here as far as the direct mail program went, who would you have regarded as in charge of the direct mail program?
Answer. Faith Brown.
Question. And the same question for the major donor program, who would have been in charge of the major donor program?
Answer. Day to day, Richard Sullivan was the division director.
Question. And as far as an overview, anything beyond day to day?
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Answer. Marvin Rosen, as the national finance chair.
Question. Do you have oversight responsibilities for the major donor program?
Answer. I did not, except for more of the operational aspects: hiring, firing, engagement of consultants for fund-raising purposes. I signed contracts, catering contracts for events.
Question. And when you say ''hiring,'' are you referring to hiring of the finance department staff that worked with the major donor program?
Answer. I did more of the process aspects. I didn't interview and hire fund-raisers; I processed their paper and made sure that they weren't exceeding their budget.
Question. Did you ever have any direct involvement in the interviewing process of any fund-raisers?
Answer. I don't think I did.
Question. Did you have a direct role in the hiring of fund-raisers, apart from moving the paper through the system?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know who drafted the direct mail pieces that were used by the DNC?
Answer. Malchow and Associates, M-A-L-C-H-O-W, are the primary paid direct mail consultants for DNC.
Question. And were there other consultants that were used to draft direct mail associations?
Answer. Most of the drafting, it is my understanding, went through Malchow.
Question. And who reviewed the work product of this consultant?
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Answer. There was a routing for review. I was on the routing, I think. Chairman Fowler. I know it was routed over to the White House, but I am not sure who all was on the routing slip.
Question. Do you recall any of the names on that, on the router?
Answer. I think probably Hancox. And probably Harold.
Question. Was material routed through DNC offices first before going to the White House or——
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did it go to the White House first?
Answer. Well, I shouldn't say that. There may have been a simultaneous routing that, you know, it went out, because generally the time constraints were—were short.
Question. Do you know whether the President ever reviewed the direct national sourcification prior to their being finalized?
Answer. I do not.
Question. What were the main responsibilities of the major donor program?
Answer. To raise funds, the larger contributions.
Question. Was there a specific—for 1996 time period was there a specific program that was followed, a formula or type of process that was followed for the major donor program?
Answer. I'm sorry, I don't——
Question. I'm sorry to interrupt. Were there specific events that were held on an ongoing basis; and if so, what were they?
Answer. Well, the DNC held a whole series of fund-raising events.
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Question. And just if you would generally describe the types of events that were under the major donor program.
Answer. Well, we did a birthday party for the President at Radio City Music Hall, and a satellite—a series of satellite parties that were part of that event. There were a series of dinners that were held, some here, some outside of the D.C. area. You know, there were a variety of events held.
Question. Do you recall the major donor fund-raising goals for 1996?
Answer. My memory is that the—there was a $90 million figure attached to the major donor program.
Question. And do you know how that goal compared with previous years?
Answer. It exceeded that goal.
Question. Do you know by how much?
Answer. I think it roughly doubled what the DNC had ever raised before from that program.
Question. Did the DNC maintain lists of fund-raising prospects for the major donor program?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Did you—did you receive on a regular basis the—any type of spreadsheet that indicated financial contributions from individuals?
Answer. I don't remember seeing—no.
Question. Did you receive any lists at all that indicated contribution amounts from DNC contributors?
Answer. I don't think so.
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Question. Do you—do you recall whether you were on regular routings for material that might have contained that type of information; that type of information being lists of contributors?
Answer. I saw events totals from time to time, but I don't know that I saw a list of prospective contributors.
Question. Did you ever—did you ever see lists of names provided by—provided to the DNC by the White House?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of any database or repository at the White House that contains lists of names?
Answer. I'm aware of a database, but only because of press accounts.
Question. When you were at the DNC in 1996, did you—did you have any familiarity with the White House database?
Answer. No.
Question. Do the terms—and these are terms of art—''the 1992 top 20'' or ''the 1992 early supporter,'' two separate, distinct terms, do they have any specific meaning for you?
Answer. They do not.
Question. Have you heard these terms before?
Answer. I have not.
Question. Is—just to summarize, then, it's your recollection that your knowledge of the White House database is derived solely from press accounts?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you have any familiarity with DNC databases that list individual fund-raising contacts?
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Answer. We have what's referred to as the AS400.
Question. And what is the AS400?
Answer. It's where—it's the repository for all of our contributor database.
Question. And who—who has access to this system?
Answer. Then or now?
Question. In 1996. Exclusively.
Answer. And I need to get——
Question. I apologize.
Answer. I need to get my time frames here.
Question. I'm referring basically to the 1996 time frame. And if you would like me to be even more specific, I'll try and be, but ask me.
Answer. I'm not sure who specifically had access to the AS400. The person responsible for the maintenance of the system is named Al Hurst, H-U-R-S-T.
Question. Was the AS400 an entirely separate computer system, or was it a program that was on all of the computers that were in various offices?
Answer. I think it's a separate system.
Question. Did, for example, your immediate office have AS400 computers installed in the office?
Answer. No.
Question. So, if you had—if you had required access for that system, you said have had to go somewhere else?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know—do you know where the AS400 system was primarily located?
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Answer. I think it's the—in the basement at 430 South Capitol.
Question. And do you have any knowledge of who had access to the AS400, specifically?
Answer. Al Hurst.
Question. And I'm speaking within the DNC employees. Apart from the maintenance employees, the full-time programmatic employees. Did the finance department have access to the AS400?
Answer. I presume they did.
Question. I'm going to show you one memorandum that is—it is a document premarked DNC 3096880. It appears to be a letter from the Vice President to yourself. If you take just a moment to look through that.
Do you recognize this document?
Answer. I do.
Question. Could you explain the circumstances that were behind your receiving this letter to the extent that you know what they are?
Answer. It's my memory that this was the—the Vice—excuse me, the Vice President's database, and that we had an agreement that during this period of time—and that if we maintained the database, that we had access to the database for our events.
Question. Do you know why you received this letter?
Answer. I'm assuming because I oftentimes sign this kind of agreement or contract.
Question. Did you have any conversations with the Vice President or his staff prior to receiving this letter? And when I say conversations, I'm speaking about conversations specifically pertinent to this, the matter discussed in here?
Answer. I may have had a very general conversation with the staff.
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Question. And do you recall who you spoke with?
Answer. I may have spoken with Karen Skelton, S-K-E-L-T-O-N.
Question. Do you recall whether the Vice President actually did provide this particular database to the DNC?
Answer. I can't confirm that.
Question. Do you have any recollection of the DNC using this database?
Answer. I'm not sure if we ever accessed the database.
Question. Do you—do you know of any restrictions that were placed on the DNC using this database?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know whose idea it was to use the database?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know—do you recollect whether the DNC first approached the Vice President, or whether it was the other way around and the Vice President approached the DNC about installing the database in the DNC's computers?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Just speaking very generally about.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. For the record, I don't know whether you're entering this as an exhibit, but it's on stationery. It indicates Al Gore, paid for by the Democratic National Committee, and not on an official Vice Presidential letterhead.
Mr. WILSON. Thank you. And I'm not introducing that into the record.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Speaking generally about contributions, do you have any knowledge of what happens to contribution checks once they are received by the DNC? And I'm asking for the process that incoming checks went through.
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Mr. BRAND. Again the time frame. You have to distinguish between the time prior to the election and the ways in which it was done after.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And I ask exclusively prior to the election, 1996, prior to the November election.
Answer. It's my understanding that the fund-raisers were to prepare an intake form along with the check. The intake form had basic information about the contributor: name, address. I'm not sure about date of birth or social security number. I don't remember the form that well.
That form would then go to a person in the finance division who would code the check. I think one code represented who the donation was going to be attributed to in terms of the fund-raiser. The second was—it's my understanding the way our system works is that each check, each contribution, is attributed to an event. It stayed in the finance division for coding, and then I think in 1996, I think it went directly over to accounting for deposit.
Question. How soon after receipt were checks deposited?
Answer. Well, you know, they're supposed to be deposited within 10 days. Let's presume that they were deposited.
Question. Was there—you mentioned that there was a method of keeping track of contributions by the event to which they applied. Was there a method of keeping an aggregate account of individual contributions?
Answer. It's my understanding that each contribution received was attributed—through the major donor program was attributed to an event.
Question. And were—were there contributions received—what—well, what types of events were the contributions attributed to?
Answer. You know, I—I am not familiar enough with the way that system operated to be very helpful to you on this. I—I've told you the sum total of my knowledge.
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Question. You—did you receive periodic reports of the aggregate contributions from particular events?
Answer. I did.
Question. And from whence did they come?
Answer. From the finance division.
Question. And how often did you receive such reports?
Answer. Generally weekly.
Question. Did you forward the reports you received to anybody else?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you recall whether the finance department would send those reports to other offices in addition to yours?
Answer. I don't.
Question. When you first arrived at the DNC in March of 1996, I'm speaking specifically of that time period, did the DNC have a system for screening contributions?
Answer. On this I want to be very clear that my memory is dim here.
Mr. BRAND. Can I ask you what you mean by ''screening''?
Mr. WILSON. By analyzing checks to determine whether it was appropriate to keep them or reject them.
The WITNESS. I can only tell you what my—I have a dim memory of having a conversation with, I believe, Joe Sandler. And this was during the period of when I was being briefed of a whole wide range of matters at the DNC where I asked the question about quality control on contributions and was told that the finance division was supposed to be screening any contribution over $30,000.
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Now, I want to caveat this. Again, I do not have a—a—you know——
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. In subsequent months, and I'd ask you about when you arrived, did you have any additional conversations with any other DNC staff about quality control checks that were coming in?
Answer. Not—not that I remember, until about mid-October of 1996.
Question. And why did you have such conversations in mid-October?
Answer. Well, we were in the midst of a—of a controversy.
Question. And how did this first come to your attention?
Answer. Through press reports.
Question. Were you—I know you've said that you—you have very dim memories, but were you aware or do you recall any discussions involving computer database such as on contributors?
Answer. There may have been either a—you know, either I presumed or was told that any check over $30,000 was run through a Nexis-Lexis, just a public database.
Question. And do you know whether those types of computer database searches were being performed when you arrived at the DNC in March of 1996?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you have any subsequent knowledge as to whether they were being performed at that time?
Answer. I do not.
Now, the other quality control that I became aware of is that the fund-raising staff was instructed by legal counsel in—as a part of their training, which is separate and apart from training academies, that prior to solicitation of any American sub of a foreign corporation, they were to check with the General Counsel's Office to make sure that that contribution would meet the legal requirements.
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Question. In 1996, are you aware of any instances where fund-raising staff were not following the procedures that have been described to you upon your arrival?
Answer. I—I was not aware of that.
Question. Was anybody—are you aware of anybody being reprimanded or disciplined in 1996 for not following stated DNC guidelines regarding acceptance of contributions?
Answer. I am not. But I didn't have direct supervision of that group.
Question. I'm providing the witness with a document. It's a handwritten series of notes. And if you take just a moment to review that.
I've marked this document for convenience as BJT–2.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–2 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Referring specifically to the second through fifth lines of this memo, first of all, do you recognize this handwriting?
Answer. It may be Amy Weiss-Tove, but I am not sure.
Question. Are you—this document indicates that—it states: Vetting: What were pressures for dropping? DF—None.
Did you have any conversations with Chairman Fowler—have you had any conversations in '96 or in 1997 with Chairman Fowler about the dropping of vetting procedures?
Answer. I think I did—I probably did.
Question. And do you recall when you might have had such conversations?
Answer. I think it was probably in preparation for his postelection press conference.
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Question. Do you recall whether you had more than one conversation?
Answer. I may have, but I don't——
Question. Do you recall?
Answer. Recall.
Question. Do you recall the substance of any of the conversations?
Answer. I remember generally in briefing him for his press conference, briefing him as to what I had been able to ascertain had happened with the vetting process.
Question. And had you contacted other individuals to discuss the vetting process?
Answer. I had.
Mr. BALLEN. Can we have a time frame, please, counsel on these questions?
Mr. WILSON. I'm—any time frame. I asked whether she had contacted people on this subject, and she said——
Mr. BALLEN. She's——
The WITNESS. Well, wait a minute. I mean, see, the rules keep changing here. I thought we were talking about 1996.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. I had mentioned for this '96 or '97, but I can be more specific. Had you contacted anybody prior to speaking with Mr. Fowler on this subject? And that would be any time before you spoke with Mr. Fowler.
Answer. Yes.
Question. And do you recall who you spoke with?
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Answer. I spoke with Neil Reiff, deputy general counsel. I spoke with Eric Berman, our director of research. I spoke with Joseph Sandler, general counsel.
Question. And speaking specifically about Mr. Sandler, did he give you any reasons as to why he may have discontinued?
Answer. I may have spoken to Brad Marshall also. Let's add Brad Marshall.
Question. Specifically speaking to Mr. Sandler, did he give you any reasons as to why vetting procedures had been dropped?
Mr. BALLEN. Objection. You're assuming a fact not in evidence. She didn't testify that vetting procedures were dropped.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did Mr. Sandler tell you that vetting procedures had been dropped?
Answer. No.
Question. Did Mr. Reiff discuss with you vetting procedures?
Answer. Yes, he did.
Question. And did you provide any indication as to whether or not vetting procedures had been dropped?
Answer. I was trying to recreate what had happened between May of 1994 forward. I was trying to ascertain as best I could the facts about a period of time when I was not at the DNC.
Question. And in trying to ascertain what happened, what was your conclusion?
Answer. My conclusion is that in May of 1994, during a budget reduction, there was a researcher in our research department, Rumi, I think it's Matazame, and I'm sorry I can't spell that, and that may not be exactly the correct name—was responsible for running the databases on contributors. I do not know exactly—I don't know what the—I don't know what the threshold was. And I can't give you a lot of detail, but I do know that she was responsible for running the databases. As a result of a budget reduction, her position was reduced. It's my understanding that at that point, that function was supposed to transfer itself to the finance division, that—and that that aspect of our procedures never became operational.
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Now, that—that's my own conclusion, that when the research department lost that position, and it was moved to the finance department, what happened is it never became institutionalized that they were supposed to vet over in the finance division, that they were given ports to Nexis-Lexis, but it simply never became standard operating procedure over in the finance department.
Question. Do you know what happened to the computer database searching function at that time?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Did you make any inquiries of people as to whether the database service was retained by the DNC or whether it was terminated by the DNC?
Answer. I have made those inquiries.
Question. And what were the—what was the result of those inquiries?
Answer. Inconclusive.
Question. What is the DNC's current policy regarding the vetting of campaign contributions?
Answer. The DNC, since December 1, 1996, vets every check received in excess of $5,000 that we do not have a donor history on file.
Question. And are there any other material ways that the current system differs from the system that you encountered when you first arrived at the DNC in March of '96, to the extent that you recall what the system was in March of '96?
Answer. Well, there is now a compliance division. It's a freestanding division within the Democratic National Committee that reports directly to the executive director. The other aspect of the compliance division is we have a committee that meets as required to review checks if we believe that there is potentially a problem with appropriateness; even though a check might meet legal requirements, that for other reasons it may not be appropriate. This committee meets under the executive director's supervision and makes a recommendation to the national chairman as to the final disposition of that contribution. And the national chairman makes that final decision.
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Question. What individuals are responsible for making the changes that comprise the new system?
Answer. Who designed the new system?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Generally, it was designed by our General Counsel's Office, primarily by Neil Reiff, deputy general counsel. We subsequently had the accounting firm of Ernst & Young review our procedures for rigorousness and to make sure that we had every aspect of quality control in the cascade that occurs when we now receive a check.
Question. Do you know—do you know whether Richard Sullivan proposed any salary raises or new staff hirings in May of 1996?
Answer. Richard Sullivan frequently proposed new staff hirings and salary adjustments. So he may well have in May of 1996.
Question. Did you sign off on any salary increases in 1996 for finance division personnel?
Answer. I—yes.
Question. And do you recall—do you recall any of the circumstances of those, what you—precisely what you signed off on?
Answer. I don't without a document in front of me that I can look at.
Question. Do you recall signing off on any staff hirings in 1996 in the finance division?
Answer. I'm sure that I did.
Question. Are you familiar with FEC reporting requirements for campaign contributions?
Answer. I am.
Question. Is there a report that must be periodically filed to satisfy FEC requirements?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And when is such a report supposed to be filed?
Answer. It depends on where you are in the election cycle.
Question. In 1996, prior to the Presidential election campaign—the actual Presidential election, when were FEC filings required?
Answer. Well, I think that they were required every quarter, at the end of every quarter until you got to the time period around the election. And there was what's called a pregeneral filing that is required to be filed if you trigger 441-AD spending. That was tested. There's already been an opinion. The NRCC, the National Republican Congressional Campaign Committee failed to file a pregeneral and a postgeneral, and it was found that they did not need to file a pregeneral if 441-AD authority had not been triggered.
And then there is a postgeneral filing required, and I'm sorry, I've forgotten how many days subsequent to the election. I believe right now, during this cycle, we had a report. Closing period was June—the end of June, you know, for accounting purposes. The report must be filed by the last day of July.
Question. Whose responsibility was it to prepare such reports?
Answer. The FEC filings?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Our legal—at that time, our accounting division and our legal division prepared the reports.
Question. And whose responsibility was it to actually sign off on those reports?
Answer. I believe that the CFO, Brad Marshall, and I don't know if legal counsel signs or not, but I think—I think Brad Marshall, the CFO, signed it.
Question. Was one of your FEC filings from the 1996 time period filed later than the required deadline?
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Answer. Well, do you just want me to go through this in a nice, neat paragraph?
Question. Yes. That would be very helpful.
Answer. Do you mind if I just do a paragraph?
At the end of September, in 1996, our deputy legal counsel brought to my attention and Joe Sandler, general counsel's, attention, a flyer, a monthly newsletter, a circular that was prepared by the FEC, that indicated that if 441-AD authority—441-AD authority is the amount of Federal money that we can raise. The '96 cycle it was $12 million, that can be applied for direct candidate support by a committee or by the RNC and the DNC.
If any of that money was spent, and I believe the date was October 16th, prior to October 16th, then based on this opinion by the FEC, you were required to file the preelection report. If you didn't trigger 441-AD authority, the opinion by the FEC, based on a 1996—or '86 opinion dealing with the NRCC said you didn't need to file.
Neil Reiff brought this to my attention, to Joe Sandler's attention, and I believe to Brad Marshall's attention. We knew at that time that we were not going to trigger the 441-AD spending and made a decision that if we didn't trigger it, we didn't think we were going to trigger it, but if we didn't trigger it, we weren't going to file.
I made that decision, because we were very scarce on resources. We had just finished doing a report, and we were sending our resources out to the field. We were in the last 30 days of a national campaign.
I made a judgment that if we didn't need to file, and if it were legal and proper for us not to do so, that our resources could be better used in other places.
Question. Did you consult with Senator Dodd prior to——
Mr. BRAND. I'm going to object to that question on the same grounds. I instruct the witness not to answer.
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Mr. WILSON. Okay. Again, if you would note the objection for the record.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you consult with Chairman Fowler?
Answer. I advised Chairman Fowler that, based on what I have just told you, that we were not going to file.
Question. And what was his response?
Answer. I don't remember that he gave any response whatsoever other than taking the information.
Question. He was—so he was aware of the decision in advance of the ultimate filing deadlines?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you recall whether the accounting firm of Ernst & Young prepared an actual report on 1996 fund-raising practices at the DNC?
Answer. I'm—I don't know what you mean by that, I mean on fund-raising practices.
Question. Well, did you engage the accounting firm Ernst & Young to analyze campaign contributions in the 1996 cycle?
[Witness confers with counsel.]
The WITNESS. I think that the law firm of Debevoise & Plimpton that the DNC engaged sometime around in November actually engaged Ernst & Young to help us conduct an internal review.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Were you aware at the time of this engagement that Debevoise & Plimpton had hired Ernst & Young to prepare some type of analysis of campaign contributions?
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Answer. No. Restate the question.
Question. Were you aware at the time that Debevoise & Plimpton hired Ernst & Young, that this arrangement hadn't been made?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And do you—were you aware of what the marching orders were for Ernst & Young, what Ernst & Young was supposed to be doing?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what were they supposed to be doing?
Answer. Ernst & Young, there were several categories. First of all, we reviewed every contribution above $5,000 received into the DNC from the beginning of January 1994. Part of this we did internally. I believe that the categories that Ernst & Young looked at were funds solicited by—$5,000 and over by John Huang, by Charlie Trie. I can't remember whether Johnny Chung was a separate category or not; the Buddhist temple, the Shilla temple event and any other contribution that would have resulted from an event that was aimed at the Asian-Pacific-American community.
I think originally we had a threshold of $10,000, and then we lowered it to 5-.
Question. Did you receive any of Ernst & Young's work product?
Answer. I did not—no, I did not. I saw their protocols on how they were going to conduct the investigation.
Question. And the—that which you've just referred to, is that what you're referring to when you say ''the protocols,'' what they were going to be looking at?
Answer. Well, how they were going to conduct—I saw the script.
Question. Uh-huh. And subsequent to the Ernst & Young analysis, did you see any materials that they produced and any of the conclusions that they came to?
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Answer. I did not see files per se. I did not see paper work product. I was briefed by DNC general counsel Joe Sandler, and by the lawyers at Debevoise & Plimpton about the work product.
Question. Do you have any knowledge as to whether Ernst & Young prepared a report based on their analysis?
Answer. I'm not sure who prepared the report.
Question. Do you know if there was a report?
Answer. We released all the documents on February 28th. As far as I know, that is the total, other than the discrete files that—if you're referring to a report, we released that on February 28th.
Question. Did Ernst & Young recommend that certain checks be returned?
Answer. The law firm Debevoise & Plimpton made recommendations based on the work of Ernst & Young, and made recommendations to me about the disposition of contributions. They were recommendations only.
Question. Did the DNC return all of the checks which were recommended to be returned?
Answer. In every instance where there was a legal question, we returned the check. And I also believe that in every instance where there was a—a question of appropriateness, that we accepted the recommendation of Debevoise & Plimpton.
Question. Did Ernst & Young identify certain checks by degree? For example, were certain checks deemed to be inappropriate, and were certain checks deemed to be illegal?
Answer. We had three categories.
Question. Okay. What were those categories?
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Answer. They were lawfulness or legality, insufficient information, and inappropriateness. The vast majority of the checks ended up being catalogued as insufficient information. We simply could never gather enough information to make a determination. And I believe in almost every instance those checks were returned also.
Question. Who at the DNC was consulted when Ernst & Young completed their analysis?
Answer. I had a—I convened a small working group. And general counsel Joe Sandler, Amy Weiss-Tove, our communications director, myself, our compliance director Paul Houghtaling, H-O-U-G-H-T-A-L-I-N-G, and I believe our research director Doug Kelley were all—as we worked through the contributions, and Peter Cadzick, who is special counsel at the DNC.
Question. Did this group report to anybody else at the DNC?
Answer. We made a recommendation to the Chairman.
Question. Did you report to anybody at the White House?
Answer. I don't remember that we did.
Question. Was anybody from the White House involved in the consultations as to whether checks should be returned or not?
Answer. I don't remember that there was ever any—at least I did not have any conversation about specific contributions.
Question. Who was the final decision maker when it came to making the ultimate decision whether to return a check or not?
Answer. The chairman.
Question. Do you know John Huang?
Mr. BALLEN. Counsel, would—we've been going close to 2 hours. Would now be, before you getting into a new area, a good time for the break?
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Mr. WILSON. If we could, I would like to go off the record.
[Brief recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. To return briefly to something we were just discussing before we move into a new subject, I am giving the witness a document, which is memorandum for the President, and it is from Phil Caplan, and it has been premarked CGRO-1262. I will give you a moment to review that document.
This document indicates that the DNC budgeted $1 million for potential fines. Did the DNC budget a sum of money for potential FEC fines?
Answer. No.
Question. It did not?
Answer. No.
Question. And do you have any—can you provide any explanation of the subject matter of this memo?
Answer. This relates, ''GELAC'' relates to the Clinton-Gore campaign, General Election Lawyers and Accountants.
Question. And so this reference here pertains exclusively to the GELAC organization?
Answer. Well, it's not an organization, it's a fund. I believe it is directly related to Clinton-Gore, not the DNC, and it is to be able to take care, and it is lawful, to take care of the legal and accounting expenses related to running a Presidential campaign.
Question. Do you know who administers this fund?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Have you had any—did you have in 1996 any meetings with individuals who were involved with the GELAC organization?
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Answer. GELAC is not an organization.
Question. Did you have any interaction at all with individuals who were involved with GELAC as a, I suppose as a concept?
Answer. Lynn Utrecht, general counsel to Clinton-Gore.
Question. And would she be—was she the administrator of any monies that they controlled?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Do you know any other individuals who were involved with GELAC?
Answer. Terry McAuliffe, I believe had an assignment to raise some funds for GELAC.
Question. Did Mr. McAuliffe or Ms. Utrecht meet with you to discuss any GELAC issues in 1996 at the DNC?
Answer. My memory is that GELAC would occasionally come up during the regular weekly meetings.
Question. And by ''weekly meetings,'' what specifically are you referring to?
Answer. We had a weekly meeting to discuss DNC fund-raising.
Question. And where were these meetings held?
Answer. Generally they were held in the Ward Room at the White House.
Question. And do you recall during these meetings whether it was discussed that funds would be set aside for potential fines?
Answer. Part of the reason that you have this kind of funding mechanism is to be able to do the campaign wrap-up.
Question. And was this specifically discussed at the weekly meetings?
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Answer. I don't remember that fines were ever segregated out as a topic of discussion.
Mr. WILSON. I have marked this document BJT–3 and have submitted it for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–3 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Returning to the subject we were just beginning before our break, do you know John Huang?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And when did you first meet Mr. Huang?
Answer. I think I met John Huang or became aware of John Huang in the middle of the summer of 1996.
Question. And did you have—initially, do you recall where you met him?
Answer. I don't, and I don't even know if I actually met him the summer of—I became aware of him in general.
Question. Subsequently to your first becoming aware of him, do you recall whether you actually met him?
Answer. I first remember meeting him around—I don't—I don't know. I can't remember whether I met him midsummer or on into the fall.
Question. When do you recollect that you first did actually meet Mr. Huang?
Answer. I don't, you know, I have given you my best guess.
Question. Did you meet Mr. Huang personally?
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Answer. Yes.
Question. And where did you first meet Mr. Huang personally?
Answer. Well, I am trying to tell you, I don't remember clearly. If I met him in passing, midsummer.
Question. And subsequently to the first meeting, did you have—were there other occasions when you met with Mr. Huang?
Answer. I met with—I may have met with Mr. Huang in September of 1996.
Question. Do you recall where you met him?
Answer. He may have come to my office with Bill Kaneko.
Question. And what was the occasion for the visit?
Answer. To talk about the funding for the Asian Pacific American Outreach Program.
Question. What position did Mr. Huang hold at the DNC?
Answer. He was deputy finance chairman. I believe that was his title.
Question. Did you discuss, prior to Mr. Huang's hiring at the DNC, whether he had been recommended for his position at the DNC?
Answer. I wasn't at the DNC when John Huang was hired.
Question. Subsequent to your arrival, did you have any conversations about the circumstances of Mr. Huang's being hired at the DNC?
Answer. Subsequent to my arrival? No.
Question. Did you have any conversations with any DNC employees about Mr. Huang's background and why he was hired by the DNC?
Answer. In October of 1996, the very—well, it may have been actually the very beginning of November. I was preparing to do an interview with the Washington Post and The New York Times, and as a part of that briefing session, I was trying to ascertain, because I thought I would be asked that question, how he came to be hired at the DNC.
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Question. And who did you speak with at that time?
Answer. I believe I spoke to Richard Sullivan.
Question. And what did he tell you?
Answer. He told me that he and Marvin had recommended to Don Fowler that John Huang be hired and that Fowler subsequently interviewed Huang and hired him.
Question. Did you have any discussions after that particular discussion about Mr. Huang's hiring at the DNC?
Answer. I don't remember that I did.
Question. Do you recall having any discussions with White House personnel about the background of Mr. Huang's hiring?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Who were Mr. Huang's immediate supervisors at the DNC?
Answer. I presume Richard Sullivan and Marvin Rosen.
Question. Did you have any supervisory responsibility over Mr. Huang?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Huang met with General Counsel Sandler to discuss fund-raising matters prior to coming to the DNC?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Huang received any briefings from Mr. Sandler regarding fund-raising practices by the DNC at any time during his tenure at the DNC?
Answer. My memory is that I was told—once again, this was in preparation for the interview that I was going to do at the—the interview came out the Saturday before the election, so whatever that date would be, and I don't know, I don't remember who told me, but that he did have a session with the general counsel.
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Question. And when that was communicated to you, what was discussed during that session?
Answer. I know that there was a concern that he particularly understand the intricacies around soliciting funds from American subs of foreign corporations.
Question. Do you know when that discussion took place?
Answer. Well, my memory is that I was told that that discussion took place in either late January or early February.
Question. Of?
Answer. 1996, but prior to my arrival at the DNC. Now, once again, remember, I am totally reliant on, number one, my own memory, but on some of this, what I have been told by other people because I wasn't present.
Question. Understood.
What was Mr. Huang's reputation amongst fund-raisers at the DNC?
Answer. I don't know specifically with regard to his colleagues what his reputation was.
Question. Did DNC management discuss Mr. Huang's activities during your tenure at the DNC prior to the election?
Answer. Chairman Fowler at some point, you know, in the summer, midsummer, remarked to me or remarked to a group that, you know, John Huang was being fabulously successful within the Asian-Pacific-American community.
Question. Did Mr. Huang have any employees working for him at the DNC?
Answer. I do not believe he had any paid employees; he may have had some volunteers or some interns.
Question. Do you recall whether you signed any authorization papers for any intern that might have worked with him?
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Answer. I would not sign an authorization for an intern.
Question. Do you recall any discussions about Mr. Huang having some assistance?
Answer. I need to——
(Witness conferring with counsel).
The WITNESS. Well, the only way I know about this is through my Senate deposition when they gave me a document, a handwritten memo from Don Fowler that has got my name on it, but I don't remember seeing the document, which requested a—I believe the substance of the memo was to request a staff person for Huang.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And did that memorandum discuss providing certain money to pay the assistant?
Answer. I don't, I don't believe that it did, and I do not believe we ever hired an assistant for John Huang.
Question. Do you know whether any of the other fund-raisers, excepting the heads of the department, had any assistants during their times working for the DNC as fund-raisers?
Answer. I think that depends on how you define assistants. The fund-raising division was broken down into the Saxophone Club, the Business Council, and we generally had a lead, and then people who reported to the lead person.
Question. Individuals at Mr. Huang's level, did others have an assistant or an intern working for them?
Answer. Lots of people had interns. Anybody who could get their hands on an intern had an intern.
Question. Do you recall whether any of Mr. Huang's colleagues at his fund-raising level, that is employment level, had interns or assistants?
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Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Do you know whether Mr. Huang ever set up events involving the President?
Answer. I know from subsequent, or from news reports that, yes, he did.
Question. And during what time period did Mr. Huang make arrangements for fund-raisers involving the President?
Answer. This is not something that I have any firsthand knowledge of.
Question. Your knowledge is limited exclusively to secondhand news accounts?
Answer. Yes. Either news accounts or what I have subsequently been told.
Question. Was a decision made—are you aware of a decision being made at the DNC in 1996 to restrict the type of events that Mr. Huang would be involved in organizing?
Answer. I was not.
Question. Were you a participant in any discussions involving Mr. Huang's performance, excepting the one you mentioned earlier where there was a mention that he was doing—I don't recall what you said, but a good job?
Answer. No.
Question. Is it your recollection that that was your sole conversation regarding Mr. Huang's performance? And I will clarify that, prior to October of 1996.
Answer. I believe that that was my only conversation about his performance.
Question. Subsequently, have you become aware of whether Mr. Huang had his own lists of potential donors?
Answer. I don't know that.
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Question. Are you aware of any travel that Mr. Huang undertook while he was an employee of the DNC?
Answer. One trip.
Question. And where was that trip to?
Answer. To Taiwan.
Question. Who had the sign-off authority on that trip?
Answer. Generally, I sign travel authorizations or the CFO does.
Question. And if somebody was requesting travel, what type of documentation would they provide you with?
Answer. They fill out a travel authorization form.
Question. And what other procedures are involved in the sign-off of that request?
Answer. None.
Question. Did the materials submitted have a description of the purpose of the travel requested? I am asking that as a general question about authorization of travel.
Answer. Generally a sentence for purpose, you know, purpose of event, you know, to attend the democratic mayor's meeting in St. Louis.
Question. Was there a specific space to put the purpose for the travel?
Answer. That was generally the purpose line.
Question. Do you recall why Mr. Huang was requesting travel on this one occasion?
Answer. The reason that this came to my attention is that—and I don't believe that I saw—I may have, I may have seen the travel authorization. The CFO, Brad Marshall, brought this to my attention because he thought it was funky that a DNC employee would be traveling overseas. I thought it was funky, too. So we went to Sandler, general counsel; Sandler went to Huang and gave the go-ahead, basically. He didn't authorize it, because I think either Brad or I eventually authorized it, but he did the inquiry and was satisfied that the scope of this trip was narrow enough and that John Huang understood, you know, the legal restrictions and basically said it's fine for him to go.
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Question. And what was the scope of the travel?
Answer. My memory was to solicit funds from Americans living abroad, American citizens living abroad.
Question. And did Mr. Marshall have any direct contact with Mr. Huang on this matter?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Did Mr. Sandler report back to yourself with the results of his discussion with Mr. Huang?
Answer. I don't remember whether he talked to me or whether he talked to Marshall and Marshall relayed it to me.
Question. And what was relayed to you or communicated to you?
Answer. What I have already stated.
Question. Were you informed prior to October of 1996 by a DNC employee that Mr. Huang might have been accepting or soliciting money from non-U.S. citizens?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you hear anybody discuss whether Mr. Huang might have been raising inappropriate or illegal funds prior to—did you hear this prior to October of 1996?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Do you have knowledge of how much money Mr. Huang raised for the DNC while he was a DNC employee?
Answer. The figure that we have used is $3.4 million.
Question. To the best of your recollection, at what point was Mr. Huang first—at what point was there a concern that Mr. Huang might have been raising questionable campaign donations?
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Answer. The first instance that I am aware of is the Choeng Am check. I think it is C-H-O-E-N-G, capital A-M.
Question. And what was that issue?
Answer. The issue here was twofold. There are two requirements to be able to accept money from American subs. Whether it is decisionmakers or green card holders for United States citizens, and whether or not they are domestic profits to sustain the contribution, and this one didn't meet muster on either standard.
Question. And how did that come to the people's attention?
Answer. Alan Miller, Los Angeles Times.
Question. So the first time that you were aware was in response to a newspaper account?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Was a meeting held in October of 1996 to discuss Mr. Huang at the DNC?
Answer. Well, I had several discussions in October of 1996.
Question. Actually, bearing in mind that there may have been many discussions, was Mr. Huang in attendance at any meetings discussing the matters raised in the initial news accounts?
Answer. He met with our general counsel and our communications director primarily, and sometimes me, but not always me, in order for us to be able to respond to press inquiries. We were in the—we were trying to ascertain fact.
Question. And when you mentioned the communications director, who is that?
Answer. Well, Amy Weiss-Tobe is now the communications director. At that time she was press secretary. W-E-I-S-S hyphen T-O-B-E.
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Question. And was it with Ms. Toby that the meetings occurred last year in 1996?
Answer. Most generally we would, if that is what you want to call a meeting, they would meet with John Huang to try to respond to whatever press inquiry or inquiries that we were dealing with that day.
Question. How many times did you meet with Mr. Huang or have discussions with Mr. Huang?
Answer. I probably—three or four, and a couple of those were, you know, drop-ins with other—you know, with Amy and Joe. A conversation was already in progress.
Question. Did you discuss the Choeng Am contribution during any of these discussions?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And what did Mr. Huang tell you about that contribution?
Answer. My memory is that Joe Sandler, general counsel, as a result of a press inquiry, was trying to ascertain whether John Lee, who was principal, and it is just L-E-E, could have donated under any other name to the DNC. I remember that distinctly. I don't remember——
Question. Did Mr. Huang provide for you any explanations of who made the donation and did he provide any background on that particular donation?
Answer. He probably did; I don't—not to me directly. I was, frankly, more of an observer in these conversations than, you know, an active participant.
Question. Do you recall whether anybody asked him directly about the circumstances of the Choeng Am contribution?
Answer. Joe Sandler I am sure did.
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Question. And did Mr. Sandler make this inquiry in your presence?
Answer. He did in the instance that I have just told you about.
Question. And do you have any recollection as to Mr. Huang's response?
Answer. The initial responses, no, that he did not contribute under any other name. He subsequently came back, and there may have been one additional inquiry to him about this matter, but eventually he came back, and I don't know whether I was in the room or whether this was related to me later, but that for us to look under H.K., or K.H. Lee.
Question. At the time you were having discussions about the contributions being in October and perhaps the beginning of November of 1996, were there any discussions on how Mr. Huang came to be employed at the DNC that you were a part of?
Answer. Well, I have already—you have already asked me that question and I have already answered.
Question. You answered fully?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. Are you aware of whether anyone at the DNC has had contact with Mr. Huang this year?
Answer. I don't think so, but I don't—I know that I have not. In the calendar year 1997?
Question. Correct.
Answer. I have not.
Question. Do you know of anybody that has specifically been contacted by or contacted Mr. Huang in 1997?
Answer. I do not know that.
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Question. When did you first—have you ever met Charlie Trie?
Answer. I have not.
Question. Have you had discussions with others about fund-raising activities of Mr. Trie?
Answer. I had a—yes.
Question. And what were the substances of those conversations?
Answer. I called Harold Ickes as a result of the Choeng Am conversation, the John Lee, a.k.a. H.K. Lee, conversation and told Harold that my—as it were, my manager's antenna were up, was up, whatever is grammatically correct, that I was not sure whether or not this was a cultural problem we were having with him, but he was not being as forthcoming as, you know, you would hope that he would be, and relayed I think just the bear outline of why I was concerned. And it was during that conversation that Harold said, well, if you're concerned about Huang, you better look at Charlie Trie.
Question. This telephone conversation, you called Mr. Ickes?
Answer. I did.
Question. And you called him specifically about the Choeng Am contribution?
Answer. I called him because I wanted to relay my concern.
Question. Did Mr. Ickes communicate anything else about Mr. Trie, his knowledge of Mr. Trie's fund-raising activities?
Answer. He did not. I have already told you what he communicated to me.
Mr. BALLEN. When did this conversation occur?
The WITNESS. It was mid-October, maybe third week in October, sometime during that period of time.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And how long after the Choeng Am contribution came to your attention did the call take place, approximately?
Answer. Well, I don't—you know, it is very hard for me to remember time frames. I can just tell you—my memory is that the Choeng Am contribution came up in September, but the conversations, additional conversations—I have already told you the circumstances that made me nervous. Those didn't occur until close to the period of time where I called Harold. And—well——
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Trie's fund-raising activities on behalf of the DNC in 1996?
Answer. I was not.
Question. I would like to show you a document that is a Xerox of a check and it is from a Michele Lima, and it has been premarked F 0047879. I show this just to ask you generally about whether you had seen—whether you have seen this particular solicitation form prior to—in 1996?
Answer. No, I don't think that I did.
Question. Have you subsequently seen this particular Xerox of this check?
Answer. You know, I may have.
Question. This indicates that for a particular contribution, the solicitor was Charlie Trie. Did Mr. Trie have any designation within the DNC as a fund-raiser?
Answer. Only as a lay fund-raiser.
Question. And what does that mean?
Answer. Unpaid, somebody who volunteers to raise money.
Question. Do you know of others at the DNC that Mr. Trie worked with in his fund-raising activities?
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Answer. I don't know anything about Charlie Trie.
Question. Do you know of any contacts that Mr. Trie had with other employees of the DNC?
Answer. I don't.
Question. Have you been told of contacts that Mr. Trie might have had with other fund-raisers at the DNC?
Answer. Other than John Huang, he may have had contact with David Mercer, but I don't know that. I personally don't know that.
Question. And concerning Mr. Trie's contacts with John Huang, what have you been told about those contacts?
Answer. All I know about Charlie Trie are the contributions that we have subsequently returned. I don't know about the relationship between Charlie Trie and John Huang and how they may have worked together, may or may not have.
Question. Have you had any conversations involving Mr. Trie's interactions with the DNC at any time in your tenure at the DNC?
Answer. I don't remember, other than following up when Harold said that we should check the Trie contributions, other than that.
Question. And when Mr. Ickes suggested that there might be a problem with Mr. Trie's contributions, what did you do?
Answer. First of all, he didn't suggest that there might be a problem; he suggested that if I were concerned about John Huang that I might want to look at Charlie Trie. I then talked to Joe Sandler and to Richard Sullivan, and communicated to them that we needed to pull and review any contributions that he had made—or, sorry, not that he had made, that he had solicited on behalf of the DNC.
Question. And do you know whether they followed up on that advice?
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Answer. Yes, they did.
Question. And what did they do?
Answer. I know that initially they could only retrieve two contributions. One was called Chy Corporation, C-H-Y, and there was another, but I can't—I'm sorry, I can't remember, but that is because of the way the attributions are done on these things.
Question. And subsequent to their retrieving the contributions you must have remembered, in examining them, what action was taken?
Answer. I think that they were then a part of the internal review, and I believe on Chy Corporation that we ultimately returned that one, and I can't remember on the other one. I think we just dumped them into the internal review process.
Question. Did anybody contact Mr. Trie and discuss the contributions?
Answer. Joe Sandler may have tried. I don't know if he was successful.
Question. Do you know of anybody else attempting to contact or actually contacting Mr. Trie?
Answer. I don't.
Question. Did Mr. Sandler communicate to you that he was going to try to contact Mr. Trie?
Answer. You know, I don't remember.
Question. Do you recall whether anybody else communicated to you that Mr. Sandler was going to attempt to contact Mr. Trie?
Answer. I may have assumed, frankly, that because he was doing at that point the fact-finding and the review himself, that since we had pulled two contributions, that he would then do the follow-up. I don't remember having any specific conversation about follow-up. I think I just assumed that as legal counsel, he would do that.
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Question. During your tenure at the DNC, from your arrival in March of 1996 until October of 1996, October inclusive, did you have any knowledge of the President's legal expense trust?
Answer. I—no, no. Unless there had been news accounts, no.
Question. Do you have any conversations with people at the White House where they mentioned to you the legal expense trust?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know Michael Cardozo?
Answer. I do not.
Question. When Mr. Ickes informed you about Mr. Trie initially, did he mention the Presidential Legal Expense Trust?
Answer. I have described the conversation.
Question. Are you aware, and I would just like to return very briefly to the Choeng Am contribution, are you aware of what Choeng Am's primary business is?
Answer. I'm not.
Question. Do you know whether a Choeng Am representative approached anybody at the DNC about meeting the President?
Answer. The only thing I know about the Choeng Am solicitation is what I have read in the paper.
Question. Are you aware of whether anybody at the DNC arranged for John Lee to meet with the President?
Answer. I am not.
Question. Through your subsequent review of the contribution, are you aware of how this particular corporation was targeted as a possible source for contributions?
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Answer. I am not.
Question. When it was determined that there was something out of the normal about the Choeng Am contribution, was Mr. Huang reprimanded in any way?
Answer. The only reprimand that I remember was to remind him that he was supposed to preclear this kind of solicitation with the general counsel.
Question. And is it your recollection that that was the one instruction that was given to him at the time? Was there anything else that he was told to do?
Answer. No.
Question. How would you characterize the relationship between the White House and the DNC?
Answer. The President is the titular head of the Democratic Party. It was a working relationship.
Question. And aside from the President's position as titular head of the party, did the White House exert any authority over the DNC?
Answer. I don't know what you mean by authority.
Question. Whether there was veto authority over initiatives to be undertaken or budgetary authority over matters that were under discussion?
Answer. I think there was a close working relationship where a consensus was tried—you know, we tried to reach a consensus on, you know, certain issues from time to time.
Question. Did the White House review budgetary matters that related to the DNC?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Did White House staff have authority to make budgetary decisions on behalf of the DNC?
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Answer. I don't know that that is—I don't think that I would phrase that that way.
Question. How would you characterize the budgetary relationship between the White House and the DNC?
Answer. I think that there was a very pragmatic understanding that because the President was raising so much of the money that the DNC was spending, that it made sense for there to be discussions about resource allocation.
Question. Did the White House have authority to approve budgetary matters prior to your sign-off at the DNC?
Answer. I don't understand that question.
Question. Did any White House staff members decide either yes or no on a particular budgetary matter before it came to your attention as the person who would ultimately execute a contract, for example?
Answer. No, not in all instances, no.
Question. In some instances, was that the case?
Answer. In—yeah, there were some instances where Harold would approve an invoice either from the pollsters or from the media consultants, you know, for payment.
Question. I am showing the witness a document which is a memorandum to Chairman Fowler from Harold Ickes, and it is cc'd, among others, to B.J. Thornberry. It has been premarked OEP 034213. If you could just take a moment to review that.
Have you seen this document before?
Answer. You know, I probably have.
Question. And were you aware that Mr. Ickes had informed Mr. Fowler that all matters dealing with allocation and expenditure of monies involving the Democratic National Committee are subject to the prior approval of the White House?
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Answer. Well, if you will look at the totality of the written style of Harold Ickes, this is—there is a written style and then what actually happened in practice, and as I said, a lot of the resource allocation decisions were made collaboratively or by consensus, but I don't remember having this kind of rigid relationship.
Question. And how would you characterize what actually did happen subsequent to this memo?
Answer. That there were, as I have described, some collaborative decisions, decisions that were reached, you know, reached by consensus about what made sense in terms of resource allocation.
Question. Did you submit, prior to their ultimate execution, major budgetary matters directly to Harold Ickes?
Answer. I don't remember that happening that way.
Question. Was there a system in place to keep Mr. Ickes apprised of potential significant expenditures that the DNC might incur?
Answer. Those, if that were going to happen, it would have come up at the weekly meetings.
Question. Did you consistently discuss major budgetary matters at the weekly meetings?
Answer. No, we did not.
Question. Did you on occasion discuss such matters?
Answer. Occasionally, yes.
Mr. WILSON. I have marked this document BJT–4, and I will submit that for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–4 was marked for identification.]
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. I am showing the witness another memorandum directed to four individuals, Chairman Dodd, Chairman Fowler, B.J. Thornberry, and Brad Marshall, and it is from Harold Ickes.
Have you seen this document before?
Answer. I—it has my name on it.
Question. Do you recall the circumstance of this particular memorandum?
Answer. I don't—I remember in general the concern that we husband our resources very, very carefully and that we—that there needed to be a very careful reconciliation of the, you know, the invoice and the documentation.
Question. Do you recall whether payment on the invoice that was discussed was actually stopped after this memorandum was received?
Answer. I know that as a matter of practice we didn't pay invoices for—I don't so much remember Penn and Schoen, but I do remember Squier and Knapp, until there was a reconciliation done.
Question. And what did the reconciliation involve?
Answer. Reconciling the documentation of the work produced to the invoice so that you, you know, made sure that those two were in symmetry. In other words, you weren't overpaying or potentially paying at a higher percentage for the, you know, the fee that is paid.
Question. Was this—had there been ongoing discussions amongst DNC personnel regarding bills from Squier/Knapp or Penn and Schoen prior to the date indicated on this memo?
Answer. I don't remember anything unusual, other than normal day-to-day tracking of expenditures.
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Question. Are you able to—do you recall whether this memorandum was the first time this matter was brought to your attention?
Answer. I don't remember that.
Question. Okay.
Mr. WILSON. I have marked this document BJT–5 and I submit it for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–5 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. How often did DNC personnel meet with White House personnel to discuss DNC spending?
Answer. We met once a week.
Question. And what was the substance of the discussions?
Answer. There were generally three or four categories. We would go over the financial status, the cash flow summary for the DNC. We would go over fund-raising projections. We would go over scheduling items, and the final category was generally State splits.
Question. Did the DNC deviate from White House recommendations made during these meetings?
Answer. Not that I remember. It was the purpose of the meetings.
Question. Do you recall whether the DNC ever made any major decisions regarding allocation or expenditure of funds that the White House did not approve of?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have contact with individuals employed by the White House during the tenure at the DNC in 1996?
Answer. Can you ask me again?
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Question. Did you have contacts with White House personnel in addition to the weekly meetings during 1996? You had mentioned Doug Sosnik before, I recall. Were there any other individuals that you had ongoing contact with?
Answer. No. I don't think so.
Question. Who—who were generally the participants of the weekly money meetings?
Answer. Chairman Fowler, from time to time; Senator Dodd, but he was not a regular participant; his chief of staff at that—during that period of time, Michael Powell, P-O-W-E-L-L; myself; Brad Marshall; Richard Sullivan; Marvin Rosen; Doug Sosnik; Karen Hancox; Harold Ickes, I-C-K-E-S. That was the sort of the core group. From time to time, David Strauss, S-T-R-A-U-S-S, from the Vice President's Office. He was deputy chief of staff to the Vice President and joined us from time to time; Ron Klain, chief of staff to the Vice President; from time to time, Peter Knight. He was campaign manager for Clinton-Gore. From time to time, Terry McAuliffe; and, you know, very occasionally Tina Flournoy, F-L-O-U-R-N-O-Y, Flournoy; and Laura Hartigan. But they were—that second group was not consistent. I mean, their attendance was episodic at pest.
Question. Were people ever brought in to make special presentations to the weekly money meetings?
Answer. Scott Pastrick, sorry. Scott Pastrick, P-A-S-T-R-I-C-K. He was treasurer at the Democratic National Committee. Pastrick would be in the first group, not in the second.
Question. Were people—did people occasionally attend the meetings to make special presentations?
Answer. I don't remember that ever happening.
Question. Were there ever consultants invited to the meetings?
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Answer. No.
Question. Did either yourself or anyone on your staff have a permanent White House pass to obtain access to the White House?
Answer. I didn't.
Question. Do you know if anybody else on senior staff at the DNC had such a pass?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Do you recall during your—during 1996 whether the DNC set up meetings with—between agency officials and contributors?
Answer. I know that at least on—well, I know secondhand that on a couple of occasions, that the DNC had contact with, you know, agencies, presumably, I guess, to set up meetings.
Question. Were you aware of any—during 1996, were you aware of any DNC supporters who had requested meetings who were thought to be inappropriate subjects to meet with either executive branch or agency officials?
Answer. I know that on one occasion, Peter Scher, and I think it's S-C-H-E-R, who was at Commerce, I think he was Mickey Kantor's chief of staff, called Jake Siewert, who was my deputy and—about a meeting that he felt was inappropriate. These meetings were handled by the chairman's office. I did not—I did not do oversight and had very little interaction with any of that activity. What I know is basically secondhand.
Question. The meeting or the instance you just discussed, who did that involve?
Answer. I—it was with regard to Chairman Fowler making a request of the Department of Commerce that Peter Scher was unhappy about. That's the extent of my knowledge.
Question. And do you—do you recall the individual Chairman Fowler was making the request on behalf?
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Answer. I do not. I'm sorry.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of—do you have any knowledge of any subsequent situations where contacts were deemed to be inappropriate between DNC supporters and any executive or agency employees?
Answer. You know, I didn't have any. I was not involved in that—I didn't oversight the chairman's staff. And so I—all I know is secondhand, either what I've read——
Question. Did you ever receive requests of people who wanted to meet with government officials?
Answer. I did not. I did not, that I remember, have anybody from the outside approach me to set up a meeting on behalf of the contributor.
Question. Were you involved in any discussions relating to Presidential appointments for DNC supporters?
Answer. I was not.
Question. Were you aware during 1996 of instances where individuals were seeking Presidential appointments?
Answer. Well, individuals are always seeking Presidential appointments.
Question. But specifically, do you have any recollection of particular individuals who were seeking particular Presidential appointments?
Answer. Well, in general, I—there were lots of people on, you know, DNC staff, or not lots, not for Presidential appointments, but—I mean, I don't—I don't remember any specific conversations other than, you know, gossiping about, you know, who might want what.
Question. And—but you yourself were not involved in any of the discussions——
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Answer. No.
Question. Relating to particular individuals?
Answer. No. No.
Question. Did you have any interaction with Ann Stock, who was a White House employee?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have any contacts with Nancy Hernreich?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you familiar with an individual named Yolanda Caraway?
Answer. I only—I don't know her.
Question. Who is Ms. Caraway?
Answer. I—she was a—an associate or friend of Ron Brown's.
Question. Were there—were there prepared guidelines to keep DNC and Clinton-Gore '96 expenditures or activities separate?
Answer. I don't—I'm not familiar with whether or not there were written guidelines.
Question. Do you know if there were rules in separating expenditures?
Answer. Well, I mean, we abided by, as far as I know, all of the legal requirements for what's appropriate for a committee, a national committee. And not advocating—we supported policy, not, you know, the—we did not advocate the election of anybody.
Question. Uh-huh. Did—did the DNC and Clinton-Gore '96 Re-elect hold joint events?
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Answer. There may have been an event from GELAC to raise money for GELAC.
Question. And who would have been in charge of the DNC end of this event?
Answer. Well, the lawyers would have worked out the—all of those arrangements. Lynn Utrecht, general counsel to Clinton-Gore, and Joe Sandler, DNC general counsel.
Question. Do you have any direct knowledge about how the expenditures were shared between the two?
Answer. I don't.
Mr. BALLEN. If, in fact, they were shared at all?
The WITNESS. Well, yeah.
Mr. WILSON. I think her answer is that she has no recollection at all. It stands with that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. On the subject of the Wednesday money meetings, do you know if memoranda were prepared to inform the President of what went on at those meetings?
Answer. Harold memorialized the meetings.
Question. And did he circulate the memoranda for comment or review before it was forwarded to the President?
Answer. Sometimes he would. I don't know that I ever saw a full memorandum. But he would ask a question or want clarification on a—on something.
Question. And how frequently did that occur?
Answer. You know, maybe once a month.
Question. Did the President or Vice President ever attend weekly meetings?
Answer. No.
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Question. Do you know if the meetings were held before you joined the DNC?
Answer. I—I don't know. I mean, they were when I was there. I can't speak to what happened before.
Question. And do you have any knowledge of who originated the idea of having the meetings?
Answer. I don't.
Question. Do you recall whether any fund-raising ideas were proposed at any of the meetings you attended?
Answer. From time to time.
Question. And what types of events were proposed?
Answer. We talked about the birthday event. I remember that. I don't really remember anything else.
Question. Aside from specific events, were there any fund-raising schemes that were discussed at—at these meetings?
Answer. I don't think we talked about schemes at the meetings.
Question. Other than—other than the weekly meetings that you've mentioned, how was the—were there other ways that the White House was involved in the DNC operation?
Answer. Well other than the—from my end, other than the conversations that I've always—you know, have already described, no.
Question. Do you know Janice Enright?
Answer. I do.
Question. And who is Janice Enright?
Answer. She's an assistant to Harold Ickes.
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Question. And did you deal with her in her capacity as a White House employee?
Answer. Occasionally.
Question. And why would you have interacted with Ms. Enright?
Answer. Because she worked directly for Harold.
Question. Did you ever have any discussions about the money meetings with Ms. Enright?
Answer. I don't remember that we did other than potentially who was going to attend, what the manifest was going to look like.
Question. Did she ever forward requests to you directly from Mr. Ickes?
Answer. Occasionally.
Question. And do you recall any other requests?
Answer. No. But I mean they would have been some detail. I don't—I can't pull out an example for you.
Question. Do you know Evelyn Lieberman?
Answer. I do.
Question. And who is Ms. Lieberman?
Answer. During 1996, she was deputy chief of staff at the White House.
Question. Was—was she an attendee of the weekly meetings——
Answer. No.
Question. You attended?
Where do you know Ms. Lieberman from?
Answer. I met her when I became executive director.
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Question. Under what circumstances?
Answer. She asked me to come over one day for coffee.
Question. And this was to go over to the White House?
Answer. Uh-huh. I guess I should use some other—a Diet Coke. Can we change that record?
Question. Did you have any subsequent interaction with Ms.—with Ms. Lieberman?
Answer. No. I don't remember that I ever did.
Question. Do you know Gordon Li?
Answer. I do.
Question. And who is Mr. Li?
Answer. He was executive assistant to Doug Sosnik and maybe Karen Hancox but to Doug Sosnik in this case, political director of the White House.
Question. Did you have any interaction with him in his capacity as White House employee?
Answer. On the phone.
Question. Did he make requests of you?
Answer. No. I mean, other than to answer the phone. I mean, I don't remember specifically.
Question. Do you recall anything that you discussed with Mr. Li?
Answer. Other than inquiring as to availability for the Wednesday meetings.
Question. To you know Sandy Berger?
Answer. I do not.
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Question. Do you know Anthony Lake?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Have you had any discussions with Marcia Scott?
Answer. In 1996—I don't think so.
Question. Did—do you know—did Ms. Scott attend any of the money meetings?
Answer. No.
Question. If we could, I would like to go off the record for just a moment.
[Discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Let's go back on the record, please.
Are you aware there were a series of coffees at the White House during 1995 and 1996?
Answer. I am aware of that.
Question. Were these coffees part of a major donor program?
Answer. They were a part of an overall fund-raising program, yes.
Question. And how would you characterize them?
Answer. I would characterize them as, and I hate this term, as servicing events, as a way to energize and invigorate people who might either—either contribute for the first time or contribute additional funds to the DNC.
Question. Did you actually attend any of the coffees?
Answer. I did not.
Question. I would like to show the witness a memo that indicates a particular May 7 coffee. And if you would take just a moment to look at that.
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Mr. BALLEN. Could Minority counsel please have a copy of the document being shown to the witness?
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. And just directing your attention to the first category, the purpose category where it notes that the purpose of this coffee is to raise funds for the Democratic National Committee, is that a correct statement for the purpose of this particular coffee?
Answer. Well, I've already stated what I believe to be the purpose of the coffee.
Question. Do you know—do you have any knowledge of whether any of these coffees were used to directly solicit funds of contributors, potential contributors?
Answer. I do not.
Mr. WILSON. I would like to submit this one page of the memorandum. I've marked it at BJT–6, and I'll submit that for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–6 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you have any knowledge of who initially proposed the coffees including the President be held at the White House?
Answer. I know from the press or television that Terry McAuliffe has publicly stated that he first suggested coffees.
Question. Do you know who had the final approval for scheduling the coffees?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know whether there was a DNC employee that had any authority over scheduling coffees?
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Answer. Well, let me—I want to correct the record. As a part of our weekly meetings, we did—we did do—make scheduling requests. What happened after that, I wasn't involved in that process of how it got scheduled. I just don't have any knowledge of that.
Question. Did you have any conversations with other DNC employees about scheduling these coffees?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Do you know whether any records were kept of how much money was raised as a result of the coffees?
Answer. I have seen documents at my Senate deposition that had—and I had seen them, you know, actually prior to that—that had dollar figures attached to the coffees. I mean, I think that's been widely reported.
Question. Did—were you—did you receive such records during 1996 when you were in your official capacity at the DNC?
Answer. I may have seen them as a part of the materials that were produced for the Wednesday money meetings. But as far as I know, there were never—there was never a ticket or a ticket price associated with the coffees, and that any money attributed was as a result of motivating and invigorating the—you know, it's part of motivating and invigorating the fund-raising base, you know, that eventually that was what they would hope to be able to generate to meet the overall projection.
Question. Do you know who approved the final invitation lists?
Answer. I do not.
Mr. BALLEN. I just like to clarify for the record. I believe the witness has testified she hasn't heard these figures. She didn't have any first-hand knowledge. And to the extent that she's testifying about information that's in the press or whatever, I think that should be clarified for the record.
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Mr. WILSON. I'm showing the witness now a letter. It appears to be a form letter with the heading—it's under the stationery Democratic National Committee. It's been premarked EOP 035478.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–7 was marked for identification.]
The WITNESS. And what's the question?
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Have you seen this—have you seen this letter before?
Answer. I don't believe that I did.
Question. Do you know whether this was a typical invitation sent out by Chairman Fowler?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know who would approve the final version of a letter such as this?
Answer. I can't speak to that, because I wasn't at the DNC in September of 1995.
Question. Do you know whether a letter such as this was ever used, a form letter from the DNC was ever mailed out to people being invited to attend coffees?
Answer. I do not.
Mr. WILSON. Okay. I've marked this exhibit BJT–7, and I'm submitting that for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether DNC employees attended any of the coffees?
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Answer. I think from time to time Richard Sullivan may have attended.
Question. Do you know of anybody else from the DNC that might have attended coffees?
Answer. I don't.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of individuals linking contributions of money to attendance at a coffee with the President?
Answer. I do not.
Mr. WILSON. I would like to show the witness a document that is marked ''DNC Finance Call Sheet''—headed ''DNC Finance Call Sheet,'' and it's been premarked DNC 3098456.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Have you ever seen this document before?
Answer. I don't think so. And I suspect that this is December 3, 1995, maybe. But, no, I don't remember seeing this document.
Question. Have you—have you had any subsequent conversations about any suggestions that a coffee might—one might attend a coffee with a $25,000 contribution to secure a trustee membership at the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. Are you aware of anybody else that has had discussions on this subject?
Answer. No, I am not.
Question. Do you—do you directly—do you know whether it was suggested as a result of becoming a member of the trustee organization that one might be able to attend a coffee with the President?
Answer. I don't know that.
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11Mr. WILSON. I've marked this as BJT–8, and I submit that for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.]
Mr. WILSON. I would like to give the witness another document, which is marked Monthly Event Breakdown by Principal and Type, and it discusses or outlines two coffees from January or February, presumably of 1996. This document has been marked CGRO-1913.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you have any knowledge as to why the D.C. coffees would be included in this type of monthly breakdown?
Answer. I don't other than as a part of an overall strategy. I would also like to point out that this is dated prior to my arrival at the DNC.
Question. Have you ever seen breakdowns of this type before?
Answer. I—I don't—I don't remember this format, no.
Question. Do you recall whether DNC employees prepared memoranda or spreadsheets that projected income for the 1996 coffees?
Answer. Yes. I've seen spreadsheets such as that.
Question. Why was a revenue figure projected?
Answer. I think I've already answered that.
Question. My recollection of your answer was that your coffees were designed to encourage people to contribute. I think my specific question is do you have any knowledge of why somebody would establish a specific figure to be raised from particular coffee events?
Answer. I don't. I can only speculate about why it was done the way it was done.
Question. Do you have any ideas as to why it might be done?
Answer. I have already—I have already testified that the figures that were associated with the coffees were amounts of money that they would hope as a part of an overall fund-raising strategy to be able to achieve and allocate out how projections were going to be arrived at, that that's the reason it was done. But I did not prepare those spreadsheets.
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Question. Have you ever seen financial spreadsheets of events, around coffee events, that lists—and this is a term of art—quote, in hand, quote, revenue from the coffees?
Answer. Yeah, I think I have.
Question. And do you know why there was a designation''in hand'' for certain revenue?
Answer. I think I—I think I've answered that. I think I've—have answered that a couple of times.
Question. I would like—I would like to show the witness a memorandum dated 13 March, 1996. It's a memorandum to the President and the Vice President, and it's from Harold Ickes and cc's among other B.J. Thornberry. The first page of this is premarked CGRO-0039.
Answer. Is it——
Question. And if I could, I would like to direct your attention to the page that's marked 0048. And this appears to be a spreadsheet for the month of January 1996. And what I'm most interested in is in the category that's marked ''In Hand'' at the top of the columns, there are designations for three coffees that were held on three separate dates, January 17, January 25, and January 26, and each has indicated as having $400,000 in hand. And my question is: Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of this document?
Mr. BALLEN. I—can you ask the witness whether she's ever seen this particular document before, before she comments on it?
Mr. WILSON. Well, I mean, I'll allow you to ask questions. I'll be finished very soon. But I'm showing her the document now, and she's examining it.
Mr. BALLEN. Then I'll object to the question then. You haven't established whether the witness has even seen the document let alone can attest to its accuracy or have any knowledge about the document to attest to the document. She's already testified she hasn't prepared any of these documents. She wasn't in the fund-raising department. She didn't participate in preparing the documents. I think only as a matter of fairness, before you ask the witness to vouch for it, if you could ask the witness some preliminary foundation questions. So that's the nature of my objection to that question.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know whether you've seen this document before?
Answer. I may have seen it. My name is on it, but I can't remember specifically that I—that I have seen this.
Question. Based on your review of the document just now, do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of the document?
Answer. I don't have any way to judge that.
Question. Okay. I would like to refer you to another document at the same time. This is a document marked ''Democratic National Committee Budget/Fund-Raising Presentation to the President on June 6''—''6 June 1996.''
Do you recall whether you have received this document?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. Okay. When did you—when have you received this document?
Answer. Well, I attended the meeting.
Question. And was this document discussed at that meeting?
Answer. I don't—I don't recall that the document per se was discussed. The—everybody thumbed through this page by page by page.
Question. I would like to just address your attention again to the page that's marked 1798 in this particular production. And in this particular—on this particular one-page spreadsheet, which is marked for January, there again are ''in hand'' designations for the January 17, January 25, and January 26 coffees. And each has designated as $400,000 in hand. Is there—was there any discussion of the accuracy or inaccuracy of the financial data that was provided in these—in this report?
Answer. No.
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Question. Was there any commentary at the meeting you attended about the fact that coffees are listed as raising $400,000?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know why there are designations of $400,000 for each of these coffees? Have you had any subsequent discussions about this matter?
Answer. The—it's my understanding that this is what they hoped to generate as a result of using the coffees, as I have said, to motivate and invigorate the fund-raising base.
Question. If I could just direct your attention to the document we were previously examining and turn your attention to page 0041, there's a designation there for January deposits, and it lists under the major donor category, $2,347,087. And comparing that figure to the in hand financial figures from the document prepared for the President, there is very close listing for in hand power contributions, $2,259,557.
My question is if the coffees are said to have raised in hand $1.2 million from January, and the deposits reflect the deposit of that $1.2 million, was or was not money deposited reflecting the $400,000 from these spreadsheets?
Answer. I have—I have no way of knowing that.
Question. Do you know who was responsible for preparing the spreadsheets that were used in the report for the President?
Answer. It depends on, I think, what the spreadsheets are. If they deal with fund-raising, a financial summary would have been prepared by Brad Marshall. A fund-raising spreadsheet such as this would have most likely been prepared by Scott Freda, F-R-E-D-A.
Question. Do you know of anybody else that would be involved with the preparation of this particular memorandum to the President?
Answer. I'm not—I don't—I can't tell you that.
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Mr. WILSON. I would like to—I am marking both of these exhibits for the record. The first is marked BJT–9, and the second is marked BJT–10, and both have been submitted for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–9 was marked for identification.]
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–10 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you have any knowledge of who was billed for expenditures for the coffees in the 1996 time period?
Answer. I assume the DNC was billed.
Question. Do you have any direct knowledge of——
Answer. I don't remember an invoice, but——
Question. Do you know if any photographs were taken during the coffees?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Do you know if any notes were taken during the coffees?
Answer. I don't know that. I didn't attend any coffees.
Question. Are you aware of any fax transmissions that were sent out to coffee participants by the DNC?
Answer. I had no relationship to the coffees.
Question. Were you—have you become subsequently aware of coffees that were hosted by the Vice President?
Answer. I have a general knowledge, but based on more on press accounts than I think—I think maybe the totality of my information is from press accounts.
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Question. What were the membership requirements for the trustee program?
Answer. I can't tell you that. I just don't know that.
Question. Could you explain just very generally the restrictions that the DNC faces on their ability to spend contributions? Are there different categories of financial expenditures the DNC is permitted to make, the difference between soft and hard money?
Answer. You know, generally speaking, a—you know, we operate on a formula of—it's a cocktail, of hard and soft. You have to have so much hard to be able to spend the soft. And generally speaking, the Democratic National Committee, or the RNC for that matter, is able to spend money advocating generally positions of the party if it's not in power, or the administration if it is in power, and to support generic election activities that would encourage and motivate participation but not advocate directly the election of—of X for sheriff on Long Island.
Question. Was there a particular pressing need for one type of contribution over the other in the 1996 cycle?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how did that—what was the—what was the need?
Answer. We were short of what's called—sometimes is called hard dollars, sometimes they're called Federal dollars, because of the—you have a ratio. You've got to be able to have X percentage of one fund to be able to spend the other. And because there is a strict limit on the dollar amount of hard dollars—there's a $25,000 yearly limit that an individual can give to candidates or committees. An individual can give $20,000 in hard dollars to the national committee. So they are scarce.
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Question. Were specific efforts undertaken to raise hard dollars?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And how did that work?
Answer. Just the pricing of events that—and I am not an expert in this. But just how they would—the kind of event, the WLF, the Women's Leadership Forum, generated, 97 percent of their money was hard, because it was lower dollar contributors. Saxophone Club. So there were strategies, yes, to have events that would bring in those hard dollars. Direct mail is all hard.
Question. Is the DNC able to donate money to political PACs?
Answer. I—I'm sorry, I don't—I—you know, there—I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an FEC lawyer, but that's why I have general counsels.
Question. Are you familiar with Emily's List?
Answer. Generally, yeah.
Question. And what does it do?
Answer. It is—it supports generally women candidates, but I don't think exclusively.
Question. Is that a formal relationship with the DNC?
Answer. No. I don't think so.
Question. Would—were there any official steps taken to recognize contributors to Emily's List for DNC perks?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Have you had any conversations with DNC employees relating to Emily's List?
Answer. I had conversations related to training, to doing some—I don't know that it was joint training. I don't think it was joint training, but to make sure that we weren't duplicating efforts. And there may have been—well, I vaguely remember some discussion about the thought of doing a joint event, but that's a very vague recollection, between Emily's List and the Women's Leadership Forum.
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Question. I would just like to show you a memorandum to yourself, among others, from Harold Ickes, dated June 18, 1996, and premarked DNC 3116384. And it mentions that there was an understanding, an understanding that there was an agreement that there was to give $100,000 to Emily's to be treated the same as DNC trustees, and it refers to possible problems. Do you recall seeing this document?
Answer. You know, I vaguely recall this. You know that the—I don't—the document makes me remember that, you know, there was some discussion about this, but I don't frankly remember the disposition of this.
Question. Do you recall whether you responded to Mr. Ickes?
Answer. I don't remember the disposition——
Question. Okay.
Answer. Of it.
Mr. WILSON. I marked this document BJT–11 for the record and submit it for the record.
[Thornberry Deposition Exhibit No. BJT–11 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Are you familiar with the National Coalition of Black Voter Participation?
Answer. I am generally familiar with them.
Question. And what is the organization?
Answer. I believe that they are an organization that is focused on—at voter registration in the African-American community.
Question. Did the—do you have any knowledge of DNC employees recommending that individuals contribute directly to the National Coalition of Black Voter Participation?
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Answer. That may—I don't specifically remember the National Coalition of Black Voter Participation.
Question. Do you recall any other interaction with not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. We were involved in some direct donors to voter registration projects, which, I might add, is perfectly legal.
Question. Who was the principal at the DNC who would have interacted with the not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. It was probably Greg Moore.
Question. Did anyone in your direct office interact with not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. What do you mean by my direct office? You mean the people in my group?
Question. The people you work with most closely.
Answer. No. I mean, I saw a list of potential voter registration projects, but I don't know that anybody else in my office saw it.
Question. And who is Greg Moore?
Answer. He was deputy political director during the '96 cycle.
Question. Are you familiar with the Defeat 209 organization?
Answer. Only very generally.
Question. And what is your knowledge of that organization?
Answer. That it was trying to defeat the 209 proposition in California.
Question. Were—did your—did you know of any contacts between the DNC and the Defeat 209 organization?
Answer. I don't know of any specific contacts between that organization and the DNC. I know that there was some outreach from that effort, but I don't know the specifics of that.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Do you know who at the DNC would have been involved?
Answer. Minyon Moore.
Question. Do you know if anybody at the DNC would have had—did have any interactions with the Vote Now '96 organization?
Answer. It would have been those same two people if there was.
Question. And also——
Answer. This activity and conversation is perfectly legal, I want to add, between these organizations and the DNC, as long as the DNC does not direct their activities.
Question. I am not making any suggestion that it isn't.
Answer. I just want to be clear.
Question. That is perfectly acceptable. Are you familiar with the DNC Party Political Committee?
Answer. Nope.
Question. Okay.
Answer. Is ''nope'' acceptable, or do we just do no?
Question. Do you know of anybody at the DNC contacting Mr. Harold Ickes directly about not-for-profit organizations and contributions to not-for-profit organizations?
Answer. I don't.
Question. Are you aware of anybody from the DNC contacting Warren Medoff, M-E-D-O-F-F?
Answer. I am not. Now, let me caveat that by, I don't believe so. The only person that might have had contact was the chairman, Chairman Fowler, and I do not believe he did.
Question. Have you had any—do you know Mark Middleton?
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Answer. I don't know him.
Question. Have you had any conversations with Mark Middleton?
Answer. I have not.
Question. Do you know of any requests that have come from Mark Middleton to your office?
Answer. I don't, I don't remember any.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Middleton served in any capacity on the DNC in 1996?
Answer. Well, you know, we looked—somebody asked us that question, and I don't remember what the answer is.
Question. Do you know of any situations in which the DNC made commitments to provide direct donations to specific candidates and organizations, or organizations in exchange for contributions to the DNC?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Are you aware of any directed donor activities involving union or union-controlled PACs?
Answer. No, I don't think so.
Question. Are you familiar with The Share Group, S-H-A-R-E?
Answer. They are a vendor with our direct mail program.
Question. And have you had to work specifically with them?
Answer. Just trying to get them paid. No, I don't have any direct contact with the direct mail vendors or any other vendors.
Question. What is their relationship with the DNC?
Answer. They are a vendor.
Question. And what are they vending?
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Answer. I don't know. They do—they provide some service to direct mail.
Question. Are you familiar with an organization called the November Group.
The WITNESS. Excuse me, can I ask who the latest group is here?
Mr. MOSCHELLA. We are attorneys with the Majority counsel.
The WITNESS. But don't I have a right to know who they are?
Mr. BOSSIE. Dave Bossie, B-O-S-S-I-E.
Mr. MOSCHELLA. William Moschella, M-O-S-C-H-E-L-L-A.
Mr. DHILLON. Uttam Dhillon, I will give you my card.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Are you familiar with the November Group?
Answer. Yeah.
Question. Do you know what they do?
Answer. They did media.
Question. And what is the relationship between the November Group and the DNC?
Answer. Well, I don't know if I know that. I don't know that I can describe what that is.
Question. What has your involvement been with the November Group?
Answer. Well, I don't—you know, I know the name November Group, but I can't even remember who that incorporates. I think that it is Squier, Knapp, and Morris, but I don't know that for sure.
Question. Do they provide telemarketing services for the DNC?
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Answer. I don't think they ever telemarketed for the DNC.
Question. Do you know Martin Davis who is with the November Group?
Answer. I don't.
Mr. WILSON. That concludes my questioning of the witness.
If we could go off the record for just a moment, please.
[Discussion off the record.]
The WITNESS. Am I responding to you now?
Mr. BALLEN. You are responding to me now. So if you want to turn your chair around and be a little more comfortable, then you can——
Mr. BRAND. Then you can't see me.
Mr. BALLEN. I will be about 5 minutes.
First of all, I want to thank you very much on behalf of the committee for coming forward today. We have been here now, it is 10 after 2:00 and we started at 10:00 and we have gone without a lunch break and you have been here for 4 hours testifying, and we appreciate the effort involved in that. I know that it is not an easy experience to sit through a deposition.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. You are not a fund-raiser; are you?
Answer. No, I'm not.
Question. In fact, you were never a fund-raiser at the DNC?
Answer. No.
Question. Your responsibilities were not to run the finance department; were they?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. You didn't organize fund-raising events, maintain lists of contributors, solicit contributions; did you?
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Answer. That's correct.
Question. In fact, your position was an administrative position to deal with personnel problems, budgeting, cash flow and issues of the like; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And you are not a lawyer either; are you?
Answer. I am not and proud of it.
Question. You have no legal training?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Your knowledge as to legal requirements comes from others?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And while at the DNC, you have a general counsel that you consult with periodically to find out legal matters; is that correct?
Answer. I do.
Question. So when you testified as to legal or fund-raising matters before the committee today, this was not directly related to your responsibilities or your actions as DNC executive director; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. There are some questions that Mr. Condit from California, one of our Members wanted to ask, as I did as well.
Have you been asked by any other official investigative body to testify to provide evidence on any of the fund-raising or other matters being investigated by this committee?
Mr. BRAND. I am going to object to that question. I just don't see what relevance that has to any of this as to whether she has been subpoenaed or called to testify anywhere else, especially with respect to nonlegislative branch inquiries.
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Mr. BALLEN. Well, can I ask a question as to the legislative branch?
Mr. BRAND. Sure.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLEN:
Question. Have you been questioned by any other—the Senate of the United States?
Answer. I have given a deposition.
Question. And did you provide documents to the Senate?
Answer. Yes. And I just want the record to state I am here voluntarily, I was not compelled, nor was I compelled in the United States Senate.
Question. Can you estimate how much of your time has been spent in responding to requests from this committee for testimony, information, and documents?
Answer. We have 13 separate subpoenas. Since October of 1996, probably 65 percent of my time has been spent—you know, it is hard for me to break down, but on related to these matters.
Question. Since October, 65 percent of your time approximately has been spent responding to all of the various inquiries?
Answer. Well, just the whole—yeah, I mean, let me be clear. We have gone through a whole variety of document productions. It is hard for me to break down the time spent in isolation on the House. All I can tell you is that we are simultaneously at the DNC responding to 13 separate subpoenas and the demands of that and the press inquiries surrounding this matter.
Question. In relation to your testimony, has the testimony you have given here today been in substance similar to the testimony you gave before the Senate?
Answer. That's correct.
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Question. And have you taken time from your job, your personal job to respond to the depositions that you have to undertake here?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Have you incurred expenses, or has your employer incurred expenses in relation to these activities?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Has the committee offered to reimburse you or your employer for the expenses incurred?
Answer. I'm indemnified.
Question. Do you know whether or not you or your employer will seek reimbursement from the committee for these expenses?
Answer. I do not.
Question. So has this—you would—would it be fair to state that this entire proceeding has been both a burden for you personally and for your employer, or how would you characterize it? Let me ask you to characterize what you are going through.
Answer. I mean, I—you know, this is not what I went into public service for.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you very much.
Mr. WILSON. I have three more questions.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Did you provide personal documents to the Senate?
Answer. I have provided everything that has been requested. I mean, I don't know what you mean by ''personal.''
Question. Have you provided documents that are not taken directly from your office or from DNC files to the Senate?
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Answer. I have provided everything that is responsive. I don't know what you mean.
Question. Well, have you provided to the Senate papers or documents that you keep in your house?
Answer. I don't keep those kinds of documents in my house.
Question. Do you know Skip Rutherford?
Answer. I know his name; I do not know him.
Question. Is Skip Rutherford a DNC employee?
Answer. I think he was a consultant during the '96 cycle.
Question. And do you know what services he performed for the DNC?
Answer. He was a specific consultant on Arkansas.
Question. Do you know what his function was, what he particularly did during the '96 cycle?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know what his salary was?
Answer. I am—it was contract, and I'm sorry, I can't remember specifically.
Question. Do you know Tony Rodham?
Answer. I know the name.
Question. Is Mr. Rodham a DNC employee?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know what he does for the DNC?
Answer. He provides various consulting services.
Question. Do you know specifically what consulting services he provides?
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Answer. From time to time he acts as spokesperson for the DNC and acts as a liaison to the business community.
Question. Who does Mr. Rodham work with at the DNC?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Do you know who Mr. Rodham's supervisor is?
Answer. I don't know that.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Rodham has an office in the DNC building?
Answer. As far as I know, he does not.
Mr. WILSON. I would like to thank you very much for taking the time out today. I have no further questions.
The WITNESS. Thank you.
Mr. BRAND. Okay.
[Whereupon, at 2:20 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
[The exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 384 TO 522 HERE
[The official committee record contains additional material here.]
[The deposition of Thomas Franklin McLarty III follows:]
Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: THOMAS FRANKLIN MCLARTY, III
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| Friday, September 5, 1997 |
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 8:43 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: Barbara Comstock, Chief Investigative Counsel; Kristi Remington, Investigative Counsel; Alicemary Leach, Investigative Counsel; Elliott Berke, Investigative Counsel; Michelle E. White, Investigative Counsel; David Bossie, Ovesight Coordinator; Kenneth Ballen, Minority Chief Investigative Counsel; Andrew J. McLaughlin, Minority Counsel; Matthew H. Joseph, Minority Counsel; Michael J. Raphael, Minority Counsel; and Michael Yang, Minority Counsel.
Also present: Representative Kanjorski.
For MR. MCLARTY:
WILLIAM W. TAYLOR, ESQ.
LESLIE BERGER KIERNAN, ESQ.
Zuckerman, Spaeder, Goldstein, Taylor & Kolker, L.L.P.
1201 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036-2638
Ms. REMINGTON. Good morning, Mr. McLarty. I'd like to begin by saying thank you on behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight for appearing here today. This proceeding is known as a deposition. The person transcribing this proceeding is a House reporter and notary public. I will now request the reporter place you under oath.
THEREUPON, THOMAS FRANKLIN MCLARTY, III, a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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Ms. REMINGTON. I would like to note for the record those who are present at the beginning of this deposition. Ms. Barbara Comstock is the designated Majority counsel for the committee. She will be accompanied by me, Kristi Remington, who is also with the Majority staff. Ken Ballen is the designated Minority counsel for the committee and he is accompanied today by Matthew Joseph and Andrew McLaughlin. And the deponent is represented today by Mr. Bill Taylor and——
Mr. TAYLOR. Leslie Kiernan.
Ms. REMINGTON. Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in a courtroom. If Ms. Comstock asks you about any conversations you have had in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words used in the conversation, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and then you may give the substance of any such conversation to the best of your recollection.
If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give me your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall.
If we ask you whether you have any information upon a particular subject and you have overheard other persons conversing with each other regarding it or have seen correspondence or documentation regarding it, please tell us that you do have such information and indicate the source, either a conversation or documentation or otherwise from which you have derived such knowledge.
Before we begin at questioning, I want to give you some background on the investigation and your appearance here. Pursuant to its authority under House Rules X and XI of the House of Representatives, the committee is engaged in a wide-ranging review of possible political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law.
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Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105–139 summarize the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and encompass any new matters which arise directly or indirectly in the course of the investigation. Also pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation.
All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues or questions which have the tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence are proper.
The committee has been granted specific authorization to conduct this deposition pursuant to House Resolution 167, which passed the full House on June 20, 1997. Committee Rule 20 of which you have received a copy outlines the ground rules for the deposition.
Majority and Minority committee counsels will ask you questions regarding the subject matter of the investigation. Minority counsel will ask questions after Majority counsel has finished. After the Minority counsel has completed questioning you, a new round of questioning may begin.
Members of Congress who wish to ask questions will be afforded immediate opportunity to ask their questions. When they are finished, committee counsels will resume questioning.
Pursuant to the committee's rules, you're allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be noted for the record. If the witness is instructed not to answer a question or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Majority and Minority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper.
If Majority and Minority counsels agree that a question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question. If an objection is not withdrawn, the Chairman or Member designated by the Chairman may decide whether the objection is proper.
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This deposition is considered as taken in executive session of the committee, which means it may not be made public without the committee's consent. Pursuant to clause 2(k)7 of House Rule 11, you will be asked to abide by the Rules of the House and not discuss this deposition with anyone other than your attorneys or the issues and questions raised during this proceeding.
Finally, no later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman. The transcript will be available for your view at the committee office. Committee staff may make any typographical and technical changes requested by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you must be accompanied by a letter requesting the changes and a statement of your reasons for each proposed change.
A letter requesting any substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments must be signed by you. Any changes to the transcript will be included as an appendix conditioned upon you signing the transcript.
Do you understand everything we've gone over so far?
The WITNESS. I believe that I do.
Ms. REMINGTON. Do you have any questions about anything?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'd like to say one thing regarding your instruction about sources of information. I will say to you that Mr. McLarty's answer also not include information the only source for which is his own counsel.
Ms. REMINGTON. Attorney-client information.
Mr. TAYLOR. Attorney-client. If you ask if he has information about a subject and his only source for that information is conversations with his counsel, then his correct answer is, no.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Are you saying his answer would not be on the information by the counsel, but his answer would be, no?
Mr. TAYLOR. Right.
Ms. COMSTOCK. That he has no knowledge?
Mr. TAYLOR. If you would like, he can say the only information I have on that source came from my own counsel.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think that might clarify it better. I think, Mr. McLarty, that would be better. So if there is some reason——
Mr. TAYLOR. But we disclaim any obligation to respond pursuant to your instructions when the source of his information is his own counsel.
Ms. COMSTOCK. But if he could indicate that that's the source, then I think we can end it there.
Mr. BALLEN. Similarly in that regard, it seems like the instructions call for any hearsay information. Certainly, at a minimum, if the witness could identify whether a source is not his own personal knowledge, that would be helpful because I think the committee wants personal knowledge, not hearsay. In addition——
Ms. COMSTOCK. That's the reason we say provide the source of your knowledge, because if you've heard other people talking about it or you personally witnessed it, all the sources that you provide us, provide us an indication of the validity of the information.
Mr. BALLEN. Well, without getting into extended discussion, I think the Minority takes a very different view of hearsay information perhaps and the question is reliability, admissibility in these proceedings. Secondly, though, as to any objections as to pertinency or relevancy, those objections must be considered ultimately by the full committee. The Chair may make a ruling. Any ruling by the Chair is appealable to the full committee.
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And if you could, Majority counsel, identify some of the other people in the room for the witness and counsel.
Ms. REMINGTON. Let me just finish some of the rules that we have during a deposition proceeding. If you don't understand a question, please say so and counsel will repeat it or rephrase it so that you do understand the question. The reporter will be taking down everything we say and will make a written record of the deposition.
You must give verbal, audible answers because the reporter cannot understand what a nod of the head or other gesture means. If you can't hear us, please say so, and the counsel will repeat the question or have the court reporter read the question back to you.
Please wait until counsel finishes each question before answering, and we will wait until you finish your answer before we ask a next question. This way the reporter will then have a clear record.
Your testimony is being taken under oath as if we were in court and if you answer a question, it will be assumed that you understood the question and the answer was intended to be responsive to it.
Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. I believe that I do.
Ms. REMINGTON. Are you here voluntarily or as a result of a subpoena?
The WITNESS. I'm here voluntarily.
Ms. REMINGTON. Do you have any questions about the deposition before we begin the substantive portion of the proceeding?
The WITNESS. I don't believe I have any at this time.
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Ms. REMINGTON. Let me go ahead and identify the other people present in the room. We have investigative counsel Alicemary Leach and Michelle White of the Majority staff and Elliott——
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Mr. BERKE. Berke, B-E-R-K-E.
Ms. REMINGTON.—Berke of the Majority staff, as well.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Let's give your full name and spell it for the record. Just give your full name.
Answer. Thomas Franklin McLarty, III.
Question. And your current address, please?
Answer. [Deleted.]
Mr. TAYLOR. Can that information not be part of the public record, his home address?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes, if you request it when the depositions are made public, we could.
Mr. TAYLOR. I request that that matter not be placed on the transcript at this point and any other time. You can have his home address, if you need it, but there should not be a document which comes into the public record with Mr. McLarty's home address on it.
Mr. BALLEN. We agree with that and we object to the question.
Mr. TAYLOR. I will go to the Chair of this committee if we can't agree that that information does not appear in the transcript.
Ms. COMSTOCK. You're talking about the public transcript?
Mr. BALLEN. Any transcript.
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm talking about any transcript.
Ms. COMSTOCK. You're asking that that be stricken from the record this morning, his address?
Mr. TAYLOR. Absolutely.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Maybe what we can do if you agree to provide it for our investigative purposes, if you can agree to provide the address and phone number of Mr. McLarty separate from the record just for the committee, that wouldn't be part of the transcript if that would be satisfactory.
Mr. BALLEN. I don't understand what the investigative purpose is to have Mr. McLarty's home address. That's my objection to it. If there was some legitimate investigative purpose, you could have it. But I don't understand why we need his home address.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, we have phone records that we have and there may be others that we may need to get so we may want it identify all phone numbers and know that we have the, we have the right phone number by knowing Mr. McLarty's correct address, so I think it is for purposes of knowing that and I'm happy to not have the address on the transcript record. That will not be a problem.
Mr. TAYLOR. Fine.
Ms. COMSTOCK. If we can instruct the reporter in preparing this we can have that not be even on the paper record. If you just want to take that question out altogether, that will be fine.
Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And I guess also ask in terms of the phone records, if you could provide any cellar phone numbers that Mr. McLarty has had since January 20th, 1993.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Have you, indeed, had any cell phones since January 20, 1993?
Answer. I don't believe I have used them.
Question. A specific cell phone?
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Answer. I don't use a cell phone often.
Mr. TAYLOR. Ms. Comstock, we've provided you with all that information last year in connection with the Travel Office. It is in your——
Ms. COMSTOCK. All of the phone numbers to date.
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Ms. COMSTOCK. So the phone numbers we had as of last year will still be correct as of this year?
Mr. TAYLOR. We'll verify that for you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. I'm not going to go through extensive background because we've also gone through that before, but could you just provide the dates when you were at Arkla?
Answer. I started in 1983 and served until 1992.
Question. And when did you leave in 1992?
Answer. In December of 1992.
Question. And that was during the Clinton/Gore transition?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you were then part of the transition in your capacity as the named Chief of Staff?
Answer. I believe that's correct. I had been asked to serve as Chief of Staff, and I think that's when I officially left Arkla.
Question. And you began work at the White House on January 20, 1993; is that correct?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. And you served in this capacity as Chief of Staff until approximately the summer of 1994; is that correct?
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Answer. That is correct.
Question. And then you became counsel to the President; is that correct?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. And is that a position in which you currently serve?
Answer. No, it is not.
Question. Okay. Could you just walk us through your counsel to the President role and when that ended and your current position?
Answer. I continue to serve as counselor to the President, but also as Special Envoy to the Americas, and I was named to that post in December of 1996.
Question. All right. In 1992 were you involved in any fund-raising with the President's campaign, with the Clinton/Gore campaign in 1992?
Answer. Yes, I was supportive of the President's election and solicit some funds for that election campaign.
Question. And were there individuals from your company, Arkla, from whom you solicited campaign contributions?
Answer. I don't recall from Arkla. They generally were from friends and associates from the State and around the country.
Question. Do you know if you were involved in Truman Arnold fund-raising in 1992?
Answer. I was aware Mr. Arnold was supportive of President Clinton and was a contributor.
Question. And how long have you known Mr. Arnold?
Answer. For about 25 years.
Question. Did you work with Ron Brown on any fund-raising matters in 1992?
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Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Were you aware of a group called APAC, A-P-A-C, the Asian Pacific Advisory Counsel Committee, an Asian group in California, in 1992?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. Do you know an individual named Nora Lum?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Or Gene Lum?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know of a company named Dynamic Energy?
Answer. I believe, with the company named Dynamic Energy.
Question. And can you tell us how you're familiar with that?
Answer. I believe——
Mr. TAYLOR. The question is the source of your information.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, if you could just tell us what you know about Dynamic Energy and then, in the course of that, if you can, the source of the information.
The WITNESS. It is my understanding Dynamic Energy is involved in the natural gas business in Oklahoma.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And how did you come to learn about Dynamic Energy?
Answer. I'm not sure how I learned of Dynamic Energy and its activities.
Question. Do you know if anyone at the White House had told you about it?
Answer. I just simply don't know where I learned that information. It is my understanding it is an independent company engaged in natural gas and perhaps the oil business in Oklahoma.
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Question. And were you aware of Michael Brown being involved with that company at all?
Answer. At some point I did learn Mr. Brown, I believe, served on the board of directors.
Question. And do you know approximately when you learned that?
Answer. I believe it was sometime in 1993 or 1994.
Question. Do you know an individual named Stewart Price?
Answer. I do.
Question. And how do you know Mr. Price?
Answer. Mr. Price was introduced to me as a possible candidate for Congress in, I believe, 1993.
Question. And do you know who introduced you?
Answer. I believe Joan Baggett who was political director or assistant political director at the White House at that time introduced me to Mr. Price.
Question. And do you recall what conversation you had with Mr. Price?
Answer. I had a meeting with him in 1993 at Ms. Baggett's request and he discussed his thoughts about running for office.
Question. Was this a meeting at the White House?
Answer. It was.
Question. And did you encourage Mr. Price to run?
Answer. I was generally encouraging of his running. He seemed quite positive about it during our meeting.
Question. Did you discuss any fund-raising matters with Mr. Price?
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Answer. No, I don't believe that we did.
Question. Do you know if you discussed with him any sources of support that you might know of to assist him in any way?
Answer. No, I don't believe we discussed that type of subject matter.
Question. Did there come a time when you became aware that Mr. Price had some legal issues with Dynamic Energy and that there was a source of disagreement between the partners of Dynamic Energy?
Answer. At some point, I believe I was aware that there were some differences of views between Mr. Price and Mr. Brown.
Question. And what were those?
Answer. I don't—I just knew there were differences of views between those two individuals.
Question. Can you recall how you learned of that?
Answer. I believe Mr. Michael Brown relayed that to me.
Question. Can you generally describe what he told you?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, I'm going to object to this line of questioning. I mean you know I have been patient with it because I've been trying to figure out what it has to do with our investigation and how it relates to campaign finance abuse, but I fail to see any connection whatsoever with the mandate of this committee and the resolution, and maybe if counsel can enlighten me as to how it relates to our investigation, I can withdraw my objection, but other than that I feel it is objectionable.
I lodge an objection as to the pertinency and relevancy of this line of inquiry.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think it is public knowledge that there have been conduit payments to the Lums and Michael Brown pled guilty to Dynamic Energy and issues related to that, which is part of the committee's investigation.
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Mr. BALLEN. Well, I don't see the nexus to this witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. I can say I don't see the nexus to this witness either.
Ms. COMSTOCK. But the witness has indicated that he did talk with Mr. Brown about his differences with Mr. Price and I'd like to continue that line of questioning.
Mr. TAYLOR. I think you'll rapidly find out that's all he knows so go ahead.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And we have discussed this with counsel previously so I think we can shorten this up as much as we can.
Mr. TAYLOR. Great.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. If you could just tell us your discussions with Michael Brown?
Answer. I believe Michael Brown requested an appointment with me and he told me there were some differences, as I remember it, between he and Mr. Price and I believe he said that either had been in the public record, in the press, or was going to be and he simply wanted me to know that he felt he had conducted himself properly. I listened to him and that was about the extent of our discussion.
Question. Do you know why he came to you about this?
Answer. Earlier his father, Secretary Brown, had called me about Michael's serving on Dynamic's board. I had been in the natural gas business, and asked my opinion about that. And I told him I did not know much about the company, that I thought Michael serving on its board was fine, but not perhaps active management. That was the question Secretary Brown had posed to me. So I think it was in light of that earlier discussion or conversation that Michael saw me. I don't know why he got an appointment. Obviously, you'll have to ask him.
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Question. And when you had this previous discussion with Ron Brown was that before Michael Brown served on the board?
Answer. I don't know whether he was already on the board or was planning to join the board. I just simply don't know.
Question. And can you place in time when you had the conversation with Michael Brown about Stewart Price?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, sitting here today, I'm not certain. I believe it was 1994, but I can't be certain of that.
Question. And did you have any other conversations with Michael Brown about Dynamic Energy?
Answer. Not that I recall. I don't believe that I did.
Question. Did you have any conversations with Ron Brown about Dynamic Energy?
Answer. I believe it was only that one conversation with Secretary Brown as I remember it.
Question. All right. And when independent counsel was appointed to look into Mr. Brown's financial dealings, did you ever become aware that Dynamic Energy was part of what the independent counsel was looking at?
Answer. I don't believe I was aware of that.
Question. And you did not then have any discussion with Ron or Michael Brown about any independent counsel investigation?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. And I'm going to object to that line of questioning. To get into what a closed independent counsel investigation Ron Brown and what Mr. McLarty may or may not have said is not within the relevant scope of this committee's inquiry.
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Mr. TAYLOR. I agree with Mr. Ballen. But I think he's answered he didn't have any.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Were you aware of anyone at the White House monitoring any matters relating to the Ron Brown investigation?
Mr. BALLEN. Objection. Same grounds.
Mr. TAYLOR. Can you state the relevancy of this line of questioning?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm asking whether or not Mr. McLarty is aware of anyone at the White House monitoring the investigation into Ron Brown.
Mr. TAYLOR. Yeah, but what's the relevance whether he knows anybody at the White House monitored the investigation?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm looking into the matter relating to any obstruction of the investigations relating to the matters that were investigated.
Mr. TAYLOR. Nobody, Ms. Comstock, has ever suggested—you can ask whether he knows about any homicides, too. You can ask if he knows about any improper conduct. But there is a scope issue here. He doesn't know anything about monitoring of any investigations, but I'm troubled by the absence of any relevance to fund-raising.
Mr. BALLEN. And I might note in the report the obstruction of justice language relates to Webb Hubbell and there was no mention of obstruction of justice involving Ron Brown or alleged activity thereof.
Mr. TAYLOR. Do you know of any?
The WITNESS. No, I do not.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Were you aware of Jane Sherburne of the White House generally monitoring various investigations of the Clinton Administration?
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Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to renew the same objection.
Mr. TAYLOR. I agree. That you're aware of.
Ask the next question.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Are you instructing the client not to answer that question?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yeah.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And could you state the basis of that objection?
Mr. TAYLOR. First of all, I don't know what your purpose here is, but it is beginning to sound to me like issues of privilege, attorney-client privilege, White House privilege, executive privilege may be implicated. I may have to call the Office of White House Counsel to get some instructions here.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, it is well within the public purview that Ms. Sherburne had been involved with monitoring various activities. That's information that's been out in the public for over a year now. There are actually documents that were turned over to this committee last year. I'm just asking the witness if he had any knowledge of that at that time and that's information that is public at this time.
Mr. TAYLOR. Did he have any knowledge of Ms. Sherburne monitoring——
Ms. COMSTOCK. Any investigations at the White House.
Mr. TAYLOR. Do you have any knowledge of Jane's monitoring?
The WITNESS. I was aware that Ms. Sherburne was part of the White House Counsel's Office and dealt with various legal matters, I thought, primarily associated with the Whitewater review. I had no knowledge of her area of responsibilities and activities.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And so she never spoke with you about any legal matters that related to you in any way?
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Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object to that question.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I mean did there ever come a time when she was speaking with you about any legal matters that were under investigation?
Answer. I think if I had a deposition or some type of appearance——
Mr. TAYLOR. The answer is, yes.
The WITNESS. That she did.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And would that be only regarding depositions or appearances before various investigative bodies?
Answer. Yes, I believe that's right, for any matters related to me.
Question. And did anybody in the counsel's office ever speak to you about any matters related to Dynamic Energy or Oklahoma Corporation Commission?
Answer. They may have when there was some public press. I don't recall. But they may have.
Question. And do you recall what those conversations were?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to renew my objection. Now we're into White House Counsel's conversations with this witness on a matter that is not the topic of this investigation. I think it is very far afield and not a proper question for the witness.
Mr. TAYLOR. The question is whether you talked to members of the White House Counsel's Office about the Dynamic Energy Oklahoma Corporation Commission issues?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. I think you can answer that.
The WITNESS. I don't believe I talked with them about any Dynamic Oklahoma Corporation Commission matters at all.
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Mr. TAYLOR. Well——
The WITNESS. If there was a matter of public press about me, I would either inform the counsel's office or give them the background and there might have been some overlap in that way.
Mr. TAYLOR. At the time of the Business Week article, you had conversations with them.
The WITNESS. Uh-huh.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And you're referring to a Business Week article that talked about the Oklahoma situation; is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. Right.
Ms. COMSTOCK. So you just had discussions about the article, not the substantive discussions about any underlying facts; would that be a fair characterization?
The WITNESS. Well, I related to them that I thought the article was baseless and not factually correct.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And do you recall what you told them particularly that was incorrect?
Answer. I don't remember the specifics of the discussion. I just basically told them the article was inaccurate in my opinion and why.
Question. Since we referred to the article, so that we know, this was January 20, 1997, Business Week article. Is that the article to which you're referring?
Answer. It is.
Mr. BALLEN. Does Minority counsel have a copy of that article, please?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I gave the witness a full copy of it. I think we're missing the end of that page there.
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Mr. BALLEN. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I just want to allow the witness to review it, and then if you could just generally, if you recall what you had told them was inaccurate in the article?
Answer. I think there was the supposition that somehow the purchase of Dynamic Energy in this article by the Lums was some how related to me and any activities at Arkla, and I conveyed there was just absolutely no relationship whatsoever. I didn't know anything about the purchase of Dynamic, didn't know the Lums, Dynamic did no business with Arkla and there just was no relationship in my mind whatsoever. I knew nothing about it, and that the innuendoes and some allegations was just baseless.
Question. And that's what you relayed to Jane Sherburne.
I'm sorry, she wasn't there in 1997. So you related to somebody in the Counsel Office.
Answer. I believe that's right.
Question. And that is your testimony here today also?
Answer. That's right.
Question. Thank you.
Mr. BALLEN. I just want it very plain for the record that the Minority objects to this entire area of inquiry as beyond the scope of what the members of this committee voted on to require.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So I'll just very quickly, then, move through this area.
You said you have no knowledge of the Lums. You would have no knowledge of any of the conduit payments or any——
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Answer. I would not know the Lums if they walked in the door here.
Question. And the matters relating to any conduit payments and Michael Brown, you have no knowledge of that.
Answer. I have no knowledge about that.
Question. So prior to Mr. Brown pleading guilty, you didn't know anything about those conduit payments that Mr. Brown pled guilty to?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. And any of the conversations you had with Mr. Brown's contributions never came up?
Answer. That never came up.
Question. Were you aware of Bill Burton in your office speaking with reporters about these matters earlier in 1993 and 1994?
Answer. Yes, I was.
Question. And could you just generally describe what conversations you had with Mr. Burton and what about these matters?
Answer. I don't believe the matters in 1993 were related to Dynamic Energy or the Lums. I think there was an article in the Oklahoma press about an allegation regarding Arkla and the Public Service Commission and whether that article became public. I think Mr. Burton responded to the press.
Question. And was that regarding Bill Anderson, the lobbyist who was involved in some——
Answer. He was involved——
Mr. BALLEN. Objection. Again, we're under a different topic again way outside this committee's scope. I want to again object on the pertinency and relevancy lines. If counsel can show where these allegations regarding Arkla are in the committee report, I'd be happy to withdraw my objection. I don't see anything even remotely related to this in the committee report. It is important that the committee, that counsel for the committee ask questions of the witness that are related to the committee scope as voted on by the Members and that is the scope that was approved by the House, full House. I just don't see any nexus or statement that this kind of matter is in the committee's jurisdiction.
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Mr. TAYLOR. There is no question pending. I agree with Mr. Ballen. Why don't you ask your next question?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, I'd like to finish up this line of questions. I think the witness and his attorneys are aware there have been a number of allegations that are relating to these matters we're investigating, and I'd like to give the witness an opportunity. I believe he has refuted these, and I would like to give the witness an opportunity to refute.
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, we might enjoy that, but is the committee investigating the Arkla allegations?
Ms. COMSTOCK. No, we're looking at matters related to the Lums and Dynamic Energy and so that is what we're looking at.
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, this matter is not related to the Lums and Dynamic Energy.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think in the discussions of publically, the matters have been connected up; and I'd like to briefly address these and Mr. Burton had discussed this with some news reporters. I think we can pretty quickly move through this.
Mr. BALLEN. If you can tell us how they've been connected up, I think that's fine. I don't know how they've been connected up.
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, let's see if we can move through this in the interest of Mr. McLarty's time. You want to know whether he knows if Burton responded in 1993 and 1994 at a time when there were articles in the print media about an investigation of payments to members of the Oklahoma Public Service Commission?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yeah.
Mr. TAYLOR. You've answered that question.
The WITNESS. I believe I have.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. You talked to Mr. Burton about it?
Answer. I think he actually raised the matter with me, but, yes, I discussed it with him.
Question. Did you authorize him to speak with the press on your behalf?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And the statements that he relayed, can you tell us the discussion you had with Mr. Burton?
Answer. I'm sorry repeat your question.
Question. The discussion you had with Mr. Burton and what you authorized him to say about the matter?
Answer. I told him I knew nothing about these allegations and to make that clear to the press, which he did so. And I believe in 1993 that the Lums and Dynamic Energy were not part of his discussions with the press or the press stories at all.
Question. I want to move into questions regarding Mr. Hubbell. You have known Mr. Hubbell for how long?
Answer. Approximately 30 years.
Question. In 1993, when he first joined the administration at any time in the spring of 1993, while he was going through the confirmation process, did you learn of any Rose Law Firm partners coming to Mr. Hubbell to discuss any problems at the firm?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. When did you first learn of any problems at the Rose Law Firm pertaining to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I believe shortly before they appeared in the press in 1994.
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Question. In 1993, were you aware of an individual named Amy Stewart being involved in Mr. Hubbell's confirmation process?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. Do you know Amy Stewart?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Could you tell us how you learned of Mr. Hubbell's legal problems with the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. I believe I was informed that there was going to be a story in the Washington Post about a billing dispute with Mr. Hubbell from someone in the White House. I don't recall who informed me.
Question. You don't recall who in the White House?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know if it was somebody on your staff?
Answer. I don't believe it was. But I simply don't know. I can't recall sitting here today who informed me. Someone in the White House told me there was going to be a story appearing about a billing dispute between Mr. Hubbell and the Rose Law Firm partners.
Question. Was it somebody just physically in the White House or an employee of the White House?
Answer. I believe it was an employee of the White House. I just simply don't recall who it was.
Question. And do you know if it was the President or the First Lady?
Answer. No.
Question. Or it was definitely an employee?
Answer. No, it was a staff member of the White House.
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Question. Can you recall if it was somebody in the communications or——
Answer. I don't recall who it was. I have a recollection it probably came to the press office, but I just can't say sitting here today for certain who notified me.
Question. And what did you do when you were notified?
Answer. I called Mr. Hubbell.
Question. And can you tell us about that discussion?
Answer. Yes. I asked him about this matter. It surprised me. He assured me that he was focused on the matter. It was a billing dispute between he and his former partners, and I believe he told me that he felt that it could be resolved amicably and timely. That's how I remember the conversation with Mr. Hubbell.
Question. And what did you say to him?
Answer. I told him I hoped that would be the case, as I remember. Something to that effect.
Question. And did you have any conversations with anybody at the White House about that after your conversation with Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Could we have a time frame on this conversation?
The WITNESS. I believe the article appeared around March 1st of 1994, and I think it was a day or two before the article. I think I called him in advance of the article actually appearing.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Can you describe any subsequent conversations that you had with anybody following that?
Answer. I believe I reported my conversation or related my conversation to Ms. Myers, who was press secretary, and I may have told other staff members in the White House, including members on my staff.
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Question. And would that have included Mark Middleton?
Answer. It probably would have included Mr. Burton is who I was referring to.
Question. And do you know what you told Mr. Burton?
Answer. I think I simply related the conversation to him as I did to you.
Question. And did you speak with the President about this?
Answer. I don't recall speaking to the President about it, but I certainly could have.
Question. You don't recall at that precise time speaking with the President, or you don't recall at all talking with the President about Mr. Hubbell's legal problems?
Answer. In that time period I don't recall whether I related my telephone conversation with Mr. Hubbell to the President or not. I just simply don't remember whether I did in that time frame.
Question. All right. Do you recall if you spoke with the First Lady about that conversation?
Answer. I don't recall my speaking to the First Lady about it. It's possible that I did, but I don't remember that I did.
Question. You were aware that Mrs. Clinton had been a partner at the Rose Law Firm with Mr. Hubbell, of course?
Answer. Yes, I was aware of that.
Question. And have you ever had any discussions prior to learning of this with the First Lady about any legal problems at the Rose Law Firm with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No, I was not aware of any legal problems at all.
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Question. So you had not talked to any partners at the Rose Law Firm or heard about any accounts from anybody else who relayed information to you?
Answer. No, I had not.
Question. Okay. Nobody from Arkansas had called you and given you a heads up before you heard about the news article or anything like that?
Answer. No. I think—no, I don't believe I had heard about it prior to being notified by a staff member at the White House.
Question. This is the March 2nd Washington Post article about the law firm, about the Rose Law Firm probing Mr. Hubbell. In this article it discusses an internal investigation to be done by the firm in the summer of 1992, and it mentions CRTC investigating these matters, and that the law firm had been subpoenaed by Mr. Fiske. Do you recall discussing any of these particulars with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you recall on or around March 2nd with the appearance of this article if you were involved in any discussions about what this investigation of Mr. Hubbell was going to include?
Answer. No, I don't believe I had any discussions of that type.
Question. With anybody at the White House?
Answer. I don't recall any discussions. My understanding was a billing dispute between the partners, former partners, of Mr. Hubbell's—Rose Law Firm and Mr. Hubbell.
Question. And so when this article appeared on March 2nd, 1994, and discussed that the firm was considering notifying the CRTC that the law firm had been subpoenaed by Mr. Fiske, you did not discuss anything like that with anybody at the White House?
Answer. I don't recall having discussions of that type in the White House, Ms. Comstock.
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Question. Were you aware of anyone at the White House being concerned about any of those matters?
Answer. I don't recall those matters being raised with me.
Question. Do you know if anybody was working on those matters at the White House?
Answer. I'm not aware that they were.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Ickes working on any of these matters related to Mr. Hubbell?
Mr. TAYLOR. The problem with the questions, Barbara, is that the time frame of them is not clear. We all understand that the Hubbell issue and the decision about it was an evolving process, and to ask him whether he ever—if your question means did he ever have a conversation with anybody about the unfolding Hubbell set of problems, that's one thing. I think he has understanding your questions to refer to this article.
The WITNESS. Uh-huh.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm talking about the March time frame; I mean, from the time you learned of Mr. Hubbell having some legal problems to the time he resigned, if we can contain it in that time initially, if there were——
The WITNESS. Yes, I don't think I understood—I'm not clear on your question.
Mr. BALLEN. I had understood the question as to referring simply to the March 2nd or thereabouts.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Why don't we expand. He announced his resignation on March 14th, so I'm not talking about a huge amount of time, but if we could discuss it in that time frame, from the time you first got notified of the article which you have indicated is your first recollection of knowing about this to maybe the time when he resigned, and if you can walk through any conversations you had with people at the White House about matters related to Mr. Hubbell.
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Answer. I'm still not perfectly clear.
Mr. TAYLOR. The question now is——
The WITNESS. I'm sorry.
Mr. TAYLOR [continuing]. Starting on the first of March, when you first learned about it, take us through your contacts and conversations inside the White House leading up to the resignation.
Mr. BALLEN. The announcement of the resignation on March 14th.
Mr. TAYLOR. On Monday.
Forget the article, forget the article. Just tell her what happened that you are aware of in the White House, the context and conversations which we know occurred leading up to the resignation.
The WITNESS. The article had appeared on March the 2nd, which I've already discussed with you. I believe there were some subsequent articles that may have come up at our regular staff meetings about current news articles in the newspaper that appeared between this article and the resignation on the 14th. I don't recall that, but it's certainly possible. I spoke with Mr. Kantor on, I believe, Saturday. I believe I talked to Ambassador Kantor about another matter, and during the course of our conversation, Mr. Hubbell's situation came up, and Mr. Kantor related that he had had discussions with Mr. Hubbell, which did not surprise me; I knew they were good friends and had, I believe, worked together on various legal matters. And Mr. Kantor indicated that this matter was a matter he did not think perhaps could be resolved timely and was weighing heavily on Mr. Hubbell, and he felt badly about that, something along those lines, Ms. Comstock.
During that conversation with Mr. Kantor, he said that Mr. Blair, Jim Blair, had spoken with Mr. Hubbell or with Mr. Kantor and shared his less than optimistic view about this situation, and Mr. Kantor expressed personal concern as a friend and colleague of Mr. Hubbell's during the conversation as well, as I remember it.
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I then called Mr. Blair, whom I knew, because I was not aware that he had had conversations with Mr. Kantor or Mr. Hubbell. As I remember that telephone conversation, Mr. Blair also had a negative assessment that this situation would resolve in a satisfactory or favorable way, or in a timely way. I believe he said something like, there's acrimony on both sides of this issue, and he too felt badly for Mr. Hubbell.
That then led to the Sunday discussion of this matter, which occurred after a meeting in the White House with the President and the First Lady where we had talked about the organization and staffing of the White House, and as that meeting concluded, someone raised the matter of Mr. Hubbell, and that the possible—the possibility of his resigning. I do not recall who raised that matter at the meeting I am talking about on Sunday.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And who was at that meeting?
Answer. That's what I was just going to say. The President and First Lady were present, as I think I've already noted. Mr. Ickes, who was Deputy Chief of Staff; Ms. Williams, who was Chief of Staff to the First Lady; Mr. David Kendall, the President's personal attorney from Williams & Connolly; and I believe Mr. Bob Barnett was present, who is a partner of Mr. Kendall's.
Question. Was Bruce Lindsey at that meeting?
Answer. I don't believe Mr. Lindsey was present at that meeting. It's possible, but I don't believe he was present.
Question. Okay. I'm sorry. Continue.
Answer. After the meeting concluded about the staffing and organization of the White House, particularly with a change in White House counsels with Mr. Nussbaum leaving and Mr. Cutler joining the White House, someone raised the Hubbell matter as we were breaking up and suggested this was becoming increasingly a topical matter in the press and might lead to the necessary consideration of whether Mr. Hubbell could continue to serve effectively as Associate Attorney General.
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There was a brief discussion about the current situation, and as I remember that conversation, there was not closure reached in terms of Mr. Hubbell's making a decision to resign or being asked to resign, but I think I gathered that the trend line was a negative one, which was consistent with my conversations with Mr. Kantor and Mr. Blair. I believe that is a——
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm sorry. We have had some other people come in the room. Why don't we identify them for the record.
Mr. BALLEN. This is Michael Yang, and this is Michael Raphael with the Minority staff.
Mr. BOSSIR. Tom Bossert, B-O-S-S-E-R-T.
Ms. COMSTOCK. An intern with our office.
Nobody else can come in the room. Just so you know, we haven't had that happen yet, too many strays wandering in.
Mr. BALLEN. Is there a question pending?
Ms. COMSTOCK. No. I think Mr. McLarty was continuing the narrative of the meeting on Sunday, I guess it would be March 13th.
The WITNESS. That's correct.
Mr. TAYLOR. Then I think the question fairly calls for you to take them all the way to the point of the resignation itself.
The WITNESS. All right.
As I recall, I don't believe I had any further conversations about the matter that day, although I may have, and I believe I was informed the next day, Monday, that Mr. Hubbell had made a decision to resign, and that resignation would be announced Monday effective at some later date. And I believe, Ms. Comstock, that I called Mr. Hubbell I believe, on that day, it may have been the next day, but I believe it was that day, Monday, after the public announcement had been made and expressed my regret that he had reached this decision, but understood his decision and supported it, and thanked him for his service and wished him well.
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I believe that's a full recitation of the events.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Returning to—I think we need to describe the Saturday discussion with Mr. Kantor. I guess the Sunday meeting you went through. That would be then Saturday, March 12th, and Sunday, March 13th, and the resignation occurs on Monday, March 14th.
The first article that we discussed was March 2nd, 1994. Do you recall if you had any conversations between March 2nd, 1994, or not—I think you testified you heard about this a few days before the article appeared?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Between the time of those conversations that you have testified to prior to the first article and that Saturday, the 12th, those conversations with Mr. Kantor, do you recall any conversations you had with anyone at the White House about Mr. Hubbell's situation?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. If I could just put this in context to refresh your recollection, do you recall at or around early March of 1994, I believe it was March 4th, 1994, there were a number of subpoenas to the White House, it was a Thursday or Friday afternoon, for a number of Whitewater matters. Do you recall anything having to do with Mr. Hubbell that came up in the context of receiving subpoenas? And I'm not asking you about the subpoenas themselves, I'm just asking you in light of that happening, if there were discussions at the White House about any matters related to Webster Hubbell?
Answer. No, I don't recall any discussions of that type.
Question. And then at that time Mr. Nussbaum also resigned in the wake of those various activities, the subpoenas and a number—it was approximately March 4th or 5th also. I'm not connecting that together, I'm just saying at that time, there were a lot of—there were a lot of events occurring, to place it in context, with all of these events happening, if that refreshes your recollection in terms of any matters that were discussed pertaining to Mr. Hubbell.
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Answer. I don't recall any discussions regarding Mr. Hubbell and the Whitewater subpoenas whatsoever.
Question. So you don't recall any discussions about the fact that Mr. Fiske may be looking at Mr. Hubbell also in the context of Mr. Fiske putting out subpoenas; there never was any discussion in that early March time about well, now, they're looking at Mr. Hubbell, too?
Answer. I certainly never—I don't believe I heard any discussion of that type. I don't recall any discussion of that type sitting here today.
Question. Okay. Were you ever aware prior to Mr. Hubbell resigning of any discussions of a settlement of Mr. Hubbell with the Rose Law Firm?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, he has testified that Hubbell told him he thought it could be resolved amicably.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I was just wondering if he was trying to try to make a settlement, or if—what he was doing about trying to pay them, you know, and resolve this.
The WITNESS. No, I heard—I don't believe I was aware of any settlement discussions, other than as I was going to testify Mr. Hubbell suggesting to me he thought this matter, a billing dispute matter, could be resolved, I believe he said, in an amicable and a timely fashion. I think that's what I remember.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So he never said anything to you like, my attorney is trying to settle this with him, and it should be taken care of by X date, or anything like that?
Answer. No, no, I didn't have any knowledge of any settlement discussions, if there were any.
Question. Did he ever mention to you his talking to any of the partners at the law firm?
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Answer. I don't recall his saying anything of that nature to me; no, I do not.
Question. Do you remember anything about there were certain partners who were friendly to him and certain partners who weren't, and how he was trying to work with either side of the dispute?
Answer. No, he did not share any of that type of information or insight with me, nor did I ask him.
Question. Did you ever discuss any of these matters with Bill Kennedy, who had also been a partner at the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. No, I don't believe I ever spoke to Mr. Kennedy.
Question. At no time between sort of your learning about these articles and Mr. Hubbell's resignation did you ever talk to Mr. Kennedy about this?
Answer. No, I don't believe I ever spoke with Mr. Kennedy about it, to the best of my recollection.
Question. Were you ever aware of anybody else at the White House who may have talked to Mr. Kennedy about any knowledge he had about how the Rose Law Firm was going to handle the matters pertaining to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No, I can't recall any discussions of that type by anyone else with Mr. Kennedy or their being related to me.
Question. If I could return to the Saturday discussion that you said you had with Mr. Kantor. Mr. Kantor told you that Jim Blair spoke with him?
Answer. I believe Mr. Kantor related that he had spoken with Mr. Blair.
Question. Did you know who called who?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Okay.
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Answer. It was just my understanding that Mr. Kantor said he and Mr. Blair had spoken, if I recall correctly, and that Mr. Blair had also spoken to Mr. Hubbell. That's as I remember the conversation with Ambassador Kantor.
Question. Did Mr. Kantor tell you what Mr. Blair had said to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No, I don't believe he went into detail. I don't recall that he did.
Question. Did he tell you that Mr. Blair told Mr. Hubbell he thought he should resign?
Answer. I don't recall Mr. Kantor's telling me that.
Question. Okay. Did Mr. Kantor tell you anything about Mr. Blair speaking with the Rose Law Firm partners?
Answer. No, I don't believe he mentioned that to me.
Question. Now, you said you in turn called Mr. Blair; is that correct?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. When you spoke with Mr. Blair, did he ever tell you he had been in touch with people at the Rose Law Firm?
Answer. I don't recall his saying that, and I don't believe that he did. It is possible that he did, but I don't believe he did in our telephone conversations.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Blair being in touch with the firm?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. No one at the White House ever mentioned anything about Jim Blair is in touch with Rose Law Firm partners?
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Answer. I didn't know Mr. Blair was involved at all until Ambassador Kantor told me Saturday morning. I believe it was Saturday morning.
Question. In this discussion with Mr. Blair, did Mr. Blair tell you he had spoken with the President about Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I don't remember that he did. It's possible that he did. I don't remember in that telephone conversation Mr. Blair saying that.
Question. Did he tell you anything about the President asking him, Mr. Blair, to speak to Mr. Hubbell about resigning?
Answer. I don't recall anyone, Mr. Blair or anyone, relating to me that they had asked Mr. Hubbell or were going to ask or were considering to ask Mr. Hubbell to resign. I don't remember that being an issue.
Question. All right. So to your knowledge, I mean do you know if anyone asked Mr. Hubbell to resign?
Answer. To my knowledge, no one did or—did ask him to resign. He made that decision on his own.
Question. So your understanding was that Mr. Hubbell himself made the decision and nobody had asked him to resign?
Answer. That's my understanding, that Mr. Hubbell reached that decision.
Question. And so that nobody—your understanding is no one had gone to Mr. Hubbell and told him, the President would like you to do this, or I've spoken with the President, and he would like you to do this?
Answer. I don't recall anyone telling me that they had been asked to discuss that with Mr. Hubbell or they were considering doing that. It's possible that they did, but I don't believe so.
Question. I'm showing the witness a document, I guess, from your calendar, EOP 52248, I believe it is. It's cut off on your copy.
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Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. And the date of it is February 21st. At the bottom of the page it reads, ''Webb/Legal,'' and then it says, number 1, Kennedy, it appears.
Answer. Right.
Question. Or actually, maybe you could tell us what it says. If that's your handwriting, you would be better at reading that, if you could?
Answer. It's a diplomatic way of asking me to read my handwriting.
Mr. BALLEN. In fact, is it your handwriting would be the first question, sir?
The WITNESS. I believe it is. I believe it is.
It is on my to do list, and up at the top here it was, one, organization, ORG, that's what that stands for; and then as item number, I believe, 11 on what was a long list here, it has, ''Webb/Legal.'' And then it was, one, Kennedy; two, Bernie; three, HRC attitude; and then by the side of it it has ''Webb'' noted on the side.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And can you tell us what you recall this was referring to?
Answer. It's always difficult to recall with certainty notes that you made several years ago on a to do list, but I am relatively certain that what this suggests is a number of staffing organization matters that I was considering at the time, and I believe this notes my wanting Webb's opinion about Mr. Nussbaum and whether or not it was—whether or not Mr. Nussbaum should continue as White House legal counsel, whether Mr. Kennedy should continue in the Legal Counsel's Office, what was his judgment about that; and then if Mr. Nussbaum were replaced, how Mrs. Clinton would feel about that, given their friendship; and also if Mr. Kennedy were either replaced or moved to a different position, how Mrs. Clinton would feel about that.
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So I think I was asking for Mr. Hubbell's opinion about certain organization and staffing matters of individuals that he knew.
Question. And what were the matters related to Mr. Kennedy at that time?
Answer. I think, as I recall it, Mr. Kennedy had worked closely with Mr. Foster, who, of course, had taken his life, and if we had a change in the White House Counsel's Office, how they would feel about retaining some of the staff there, and was it time to make some rather broad changes in the White House Counsel's Office, if, indeed, a change were made.
Question. Okay. So the legal reference with Mr. Hubbell has nothing to do with Mr. Hubbell's legal situation then?
Answer. That's absolutely correct.
Question. So as of February 21st, 1994, you had no idea about any legal problems related to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. None whatsoever.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Let's make that Deposition Exhibit number 1.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of the deposition.]
The WITNESS. May we take a break for just a couple of minutes?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Sure.
[Brief recess.]
Mr. BALLEN. There are other people in the room. Could we just introduce them again?
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Mr. Bossie is also here. I think that's the only addition we have had, and we have had a few exits.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Other than Mr. Kantor or Mr. Blair, do you know of anyone else who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resigning?
Answer. I'm sorry.
Question. You mentioned the conversations that you knew about that Mr. Kantor and Mr. Blair had with Mr. Hubbell, and then you yourself had a conversation. Was there anybody else that you knew of who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resigning?
Answer. No, I'm not sure who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resigning.
Question. Okay. Do you know if David Kendall or Bob Barnett talked with him?
Answer. I don't know whether they spoke with him or not.
Question. Or Bruce Lindsey?
Answer. I don't know whether Mr. Lindsey talked to Mr. Hubbell or not.
Question. Do you know if Skip Rutherford had been in touch with him at all?
Answer. I don't know whether Mr. Rutherford had talked to Webb or not.
Question. So there is nobody else that comes to mind that you can think of who spoke to Mr. Hubbell prior to his resignation?
Answer. No, there's not.
Question. When you spoke with Mr. Hubbell, did you ever have any discussion with him about what he would do if he left the Justice Department?
Answer. I don't recall whether I did or not. I may have. I don't know whether we covered that subject matter when I talked to him or not.
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Mr. BALLEN. Could we just have a time frame? Are we still in the March——
The WITNESS. As I think Ms. Comstock is referring to my calling Mr. Hubbell on the 14th or 15th. That's how I took your question.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
The WITNESS. Is that right?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And the time frame, when you were having—or, you know, initially when you described the initial phone call you had with him where he said it's no problem, so I am assuming that didn't come up at that time, and now after he resigned, did you ever have any conversation?
Answer. It may have come up in the conversation, but I don't remember that it did.
Question. But prior to him resigning, you don't recall any discussions with him about what he would do?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, to the best of my memory, I do not believe I spoke to Mr. Hubbell, I certainly don't recall speaking to him, between the time I visited with him on March the 1st, or whatever date it was before the article, and his resigning on the 14th. I don't believe I talked to Mr. Hubbell during that period. It's possible I did and don't remember it, but I don't believe I spoke to him.
Question. And in the Sunday meeting that you discussed, I'm showing the witness a copy of your calendar, EOP 52249, and if you could just—again, this is your handwriting; is that correct?
Answer. It is.
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Question. Okay. Could you read for us what the entry that is there says?
Answer. It says, Jim Blair, Kendall/Webb, HRC statement, Maggie.
Question. And could you tell us what that refers to?
Answer. I can't tell you with certainty sitting here today what it refers to, but I can, I believe, make a reasonably good surmise or guess.
Question. Okay. Could you do that for me?
Answer. I think it contemplates if Mr. Hubbell resigns, that we will need a statement perhaps from Mrs. Clinton about his resignation and maybe other statements as well, and that I'm going to discuss that or assign someone to discuss that with Mr. Blair, Mr. Kendall and Ms. Williams.
Question. And was this the time of the meeting on Sunday with the 1 o'clock entry there, if you recall when the meeting was on Sunday?
Answer. The meeting was on Sunday morning, so this was after the meeting.
Question. So these are notes that you think you made after the meeting?
Answer. I don't know that I made them after the meeting, Ms. Comstock. This is how I kind of keep my calendar here a bit, so I may have already had these notes, and I may have made it after the meeting. I just simply don't know.
Question. Do you know if you made any notes during that meeting on Sunday, the 13th?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. Okay. Do you know what you did with those notes?
Answer. They are in my files.
Question. And did the notes at all refer to Mr. Hubbell?
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Answer. They did not.
Question. The notes were regarding organization and staffing of the White House?
Answer. And staffing, yes.
Question. Do you recall if anyone else at the meeting took notes?
Answer. I don't know whether anyone else at the meeting took notes or not. I don't recall that they did.
Question. From your experience at the White House working with Ms. Maggie Williams, did Ms. Williams usually take notes in meetings that you were at with her?
Answer. I honestly don't know.
Question. Or Mr. Ickes, did he usually take notes in meetings?
Answer. Mr. Ickes, from time to time I noticed him taking notes at meetings, yes. I don't recall whether he took notes at this meeting or not.
Question. Okay. And you had said that as the meeting concluded that Sunday morning, that somebody who you couldn't recall raised the issue of Mr. Hubbell and him resigning. Do you recall at any point during the meeting if you had said anything about what Mr. Hubbell was going to do or helping Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No, I don't recall that matter coming up in the discussion about Mr. Hubbell at all.
Question. In news reports it's been indicated that you do recall something being said to the First Lady; is that correct?
Answer. It was after the meeting was breaking up.
Question. And that was the meeting on the 13th?
Answer. That's correct.
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Question. I don't believe we discussed that yet. Could you tell us about that?
Answer. We have not.
The formal meeting about the staffing and organization had concluded. The subject about Mr. Hubbell had been raised. We concluded that discussion.
Question. So the discussion about Mr. Hubbell came up within the meeting of—generally of all the people?
Answer. I believe most of the participants were still there. It's possible one or two had left, had departed.
Question. Okay. And that was the discussion of him resigning?
Answer. The possibility of his resigning.
Question. And your understanding of that was that there hadn't been a final decision yet?
Answer. As I remember it sitting here today, there was not closure reached at this meeting.
Question. Do you recall anything the President said in the meeting about Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. As I remember it, the President listened to the discussion. I don't recall his saying anything. He may have, but I don't recall his making any comments during this discussion about Mr. Hubbell.
Question. Do you recall if the First Lady said anything in that discussion?
Answer. I recall her listening as well, and I don't recall her making any comments. She may have, but I don't recall any remarks that she made.
Question. Can you generally recall who it was that was making, sort of narrowing—I mean, it is a small group of people—who was sort of generally making the comments about Mr. Hubbell?
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Mr. TAYLOR. Well, you have already asked him that, Ms. Comstock, the first time around.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I know. I'm just trying to—somebody——
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Was it a male or a female?
Answer. I don't recall who raised the topic of Mr. Hubbell, and I don't recall the President or First Lady making comments, although they may have. I have a vague recollection of Mr. Ickes making comments, but I don't recall—I can't attribute what he said to him, and others may have spoken, including myself. I just don't remember.
Question. So that's entirely what you remember of the account of him resigning; that's as much as you can remember at this time?
Mr. BALLEN. He has already testified to that three times now.
The WITNESS. I think so, yes.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And then could you go into the matters that you raised with the First Lady?
Answer. As the meeting was breaking up, I spoke to the First Lady as I was leaving and related to her that we would try to be supportive of Webb in a difficult period. That's, as I recall, my comment to her. I'm not sure that's a direct quote, but it was something to that effect.
Question. And what did the First Lady say to you?
Answer. She acknowledged my comment and said, Mack, thank you very much.
Question. And that's the entire conversation?
Answer. It was that type of exchange. She made——
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Mr. TAYLOR. The question is, was that the entire conversation?
The WITNESS. Yes. Well, let me say I don't remember exactly what was said, but my memory is she acknowledged my comment and said, Mack—something to the effect, Mack, thank you very much. She may have said something like, I appreciate that, and that was the entire exchange, and I departed.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. When you indicated that you were going to try and help Mr. Hubbell, what did you have in mind when you said that?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. That wasn't his testimony. I believe his testimony was that he would——
Mr. KANJORSKI. Is it okay if I bring my staff?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Could we go off the record for a minute?
[Discussion off the record.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. Congressman Kanjorski is present, and at this time would you like to ask questions, Mr. Kanjorski?
Mr. KANJORSKI. Since I just came in, I will defer to you. Later on, if I may, yes.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. We'll just begin again from the question.
This conversation you had with the First Lady about Mr. Hubbell, again you said something to the effect of you wanted to—you were going to be supportive of Mr. Hubbell; is that the gist of it?
Answer. Something to that effect.
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Question. And what did you have in mind when you said that?
Answer. I think it was just simply a human expression of caring about a friend and a colleague, and I don't think I had any developed thoughts in my head other than not to abandon a friend who was facing a difficult period.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I want to go ahead and make this March 13th, 1994 calendar entry of Mr. Hubbell Deposition Exhibit Number 2.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–2 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm showing you a copy of notes we received from the White House, EOP 20328.
Is this your handwriting, Mr. McLarty?
Answer. It is.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Could we have an extra copy for Mr. Kanjorski?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Of course.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And could you read those notes for us, if you could?
Answer. Yes, I can, or I will try to. It says, base, Ron Perelman, dash, HI; Truman Arnold; B. Rapoport/others; consulting arrangements; law firm's reluctant to touch him; Mickey to help; Vernon, two checks, which means ditto, to help; indemnity agreement; Christine; and it has P 1 week, which it means pending 1 week.
Question. Pending 1 week?
Answer. Pending 1 week, yes.
Question. And what did the pending 1 week mean?
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Answer. A tickle file that this note would come back up in 1 week.
Question. Okay. And could you walk us through what these notes mean?
Mr. BALLEN. Have we established, maybe I just didn't hear, a date for these notes?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Well, if you could tell us if you recall when you made these notes?
Answer. I don't know when I made these notes. There's not a date on these notes.
Question. Do you recall if they were at or around the time of when Mr. Hubbell resigned?
Answer. I believe they were after he had resigned. I don't know what time frame these might have been.
Question. Do you generally recall if it was in the spring of 1994?
Answer. I believe that's quite likely.
Question. Okay. And if you could just tell us to the best of your recollection what you meant in your notes here?
Answer. Well, these are notes that I made, and it's hard sitting here today to recall not only when I made them, but precisely what I meant by them, so I will try to be responsive to your question with that caveat or context. And I don't know whether they reflect a conversation I was having with someone or reflect a quick jotting down of my thoughts about Mr. Hubbell and his transition to the private sector, but that's to me, I believe, what they relate to. And they suggest to me that, one, ''Law firm's reluctant to touch him,'' that the transition to me is going to be a difficult one, as I thought it would be.
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Question. And why did you believe that law firms would be reluctant to touch him?
Answer. I believe that had been related to me by someone; whether it be Mr. Burton or others, I had been told that.
Question. Do you recall conversations you had with Mr. Burton about Mr. Hubbell's employment in the spring of 1994 time period?
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Could you tell us what those conversations were?
Answer. Mr. Burton knew Mr. Hubbell, as well as of course I knew him, and we discussed this situation, which was a sad and disappointing one, on a couple of occasions, including Mr. Hubbell's transition to the private sector, and I believe Mr. Burton, as I remember it, felt as I did that it would be a difficult period for Mr. Hubbell and his family.
Question. But do you know how Mr. Burton may have learned that law firms weren't going to—were going to be reluctant to hire Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. We discussed the possibility of the Jones Day law firm, which Mr. Burton had been associated with prior to his service in the White House, and the Jones Day firm had also done work for Arkla when I was chairman of Arkla, as a possibility, and our mutual friend, Mr. Brad Keithley, who had worked with me at Arkla as our general counsel and now was a partner at Jones Day, and the possibility that we might suggest to them that Mr. Hubbell, we felt, was a fine individual and what were their thoughts about his possibly doing some work with them.
Ms. Comstock, I can't remember whether I asked Mr. Burton to call Mr. Keithley or he did it on his own. At any rate, I think he talked to Mr. Keithley, whom he knew quite well, as I did, and I believe that was Mr. Keithley's feedback or assessment, that with this pending matter with the Rose Law Firm partners, he thought it would be difficult for Mr. Hubbell to join a traditional major law firm.
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Question. And when you heard that, did that give you cause to, you know, review the matter and think, you know—because I think the—in the news articles they had indicated that all 28 partners of the Rose Law Firm had taken this action against Mr. Hubbell. Did that cause you to reassess your evaluation of the situation at that time?
Answer. No, it did not.
Question. Okay. If you could continue with describing the notes then.
Answer. Along those lines I had also had an occasion to visit with Vernon Jordan, which I did regularly during my tenure in the White House as Chief of Staff, and we had discussed the Hubbell matter. Mr. Jordan knew Mr. Hubbell as I did, and I believe Mr. Jordan also had related he thought it would be difficult for Mr. Hubbell to join a traditional law firm, and it may be that comment came from him. I'm just not sure one or the other, but that was the understanding or emphasis that I believe this refers to.
Question. Was there any attempt to ask Mr. Jordan if Mr. Hubbell could join that law firm?
Answer. No. I don't recall asking——
Question. Mr. Jordan's law firm?
Answer. I don't recall asking Mr. Jordan to consider that.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, to consider what, sir?
The WITNESS. Mr. Hubbell joining Mr. Jordan's law firm. I don't think I raised that issue with Mr. Jordan.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. And why don't we go then to the other individuals that are on here.
Answer. All right. Again, I'm not certain exactly when or how I made these notes. I believe they are actually on the back of a note where I was handed a phone message that Mr. Jordan was holding for me on the phone. I believe that's the case. So they could reflect some of my visit with him, but I'm not sure that is the case. They may have been made—I just used that note to make some notes later on. I'm just not sure when I made them.
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At any rate, I think ''Mr. Perelman'' relates to Ron Perelman, a successful financier in New York, and I can't recall with certainty, Ms. Comstock, but I believe in my conversation with Mr. Jordan, I believe he related that he was empathetic with Mr. Hubbell's situation and was—he, too, was trying to be supportive of Mr. Hubbell in finding some opportunities as he left government service. And I believe he mentioned Mr. Perelman to me.
Question. Mr. Jordan mentioned Mr. Perelman?
Answer. I believe he did, but I can't say that with certainty, Ms. Comstock, but I believe that's the case.
Question. Just to clarify, we have received another document from the White House, which is 20327, which has, Vernon Jordan for you and Harold on line 33.
Is that what you're referring to when you said this might be on the back of something?
Answer. That's, I believe, correct.
Mr. BALLEN. Could we, the Minority and Mr. Kanjorski, have a copy of that?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. It solves one mystery for us on what that note was.
Could you identify whose handwriting that is on that note?
Answer. That is my administrative assistant Patty McHugh's handwriting, I believe.
Question. So you believe that this message on 327 was the message received when you wrote this; what is 20328 was on the back of that note?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I believe that's right.
Question. Okay. What did you mean by when it says, base, Ron Perelman?
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Answer. I'm not sure what ''base'' means. I don't know whether that refers to a base salary or a base company; I'm not certain what that means. It may not mean either. Sitting here today, it's hard to know what the word means on a scribbled piece of paper.
Question. When it says, dash, HI, was that something that Harold Ickes had brought up in the conversation with—or maybe we can establish that. Was Mr. Ickes also on the line with you with Vernon Jordan, if you recall?
Answer. I don't recall that he was. I can't say for certain he wasn't, but I don't recall that he was.
There's a couple ways you can read this note. It's impossible to reconstruct sitting here today. It's got, ''Vernon Jordan for you,'' you could read it, and Harold is holding on another line. It could also mean, Vernon Jordan for you and Harold on line 33. I just simply don't remember.
I do have a recollection of talking to Mr. Jordan about Mr. Hubbell and his resignation and Mr. Jordan having basically similar feelings to me that he regretted it very much for a person he liked and had a regard for.
Question. And you're aware that Mr. Jordan then had some type of business relationship or connections with Ron Perelman?
Answer. No, I don't recall that I was aware of that. It is certainly possible that Mr. Jordan, in our discussion, related that, and I have since learned that from public press accounts, I think, but I can't say sitting here today that these notes, as I tried to say earlier, or testify earlier, that these notes reflect my conversation with Mr. Jordan. They may. It's just very hard sitting here today to know whether they reflect my conversation with him, which they may well, but it also could mean I just kept this piece of paper, which I do from time to time in just my daily activities, and then wrote some notes that were not reflective of my direct conversation with Mr. Jordan. I just simply don't know.
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Question. And do you know the reference to Truman Arnold here how that came up?
Answer. I think by the time I wrote these notes, of course they don't have a date on them, I believe I had either talked to Mr. Arnold or was contemplating talking to Mr. Arnold about the possibility of his being supportive of Mr. Hubbell during this period, and I think that's what that refers to.
Question. And then the ''Rapoport,'' is that Bernard Rapoport?
Answer. Yes, I believe that's correct.
Question. And could you tell us about Mr. Rapoport?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.
Mr. TAYLOR. Tell us about Mr. Rapoport.
The WITNESS. I believe this reference suggests that either—it suggests that Mr. Rapoport might be someone who might have an interest in being supportive of Mr. Hubbell and having some employment opportunities for him. I believe that's what that reference means.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And why do you think Mr. Rapoport would be supportive of Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I knew Mr. Rapoport knew Mr. Hubbell favorably. He is a very generous person. My assessment is he is a very generous person in nature and in spirit, and he had a very large and successful insurance company in Waco, Texas. So for those reasons, I thought he might be receptive to having employment opportunities for Mr. Hubbell.
Question. Were you aware of him also being a large donor to the DNC?
Answer. I was aware he was very supportive of President Clinton.
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Question. And are you aware of Truman Arnold, I think we previously discussed, also being a fund-raiser for the President?
Answer. I knew Mr. Arnold had been involved in support of the President, including fund-raising, and had also, of course, been supportive of the President for close to 20 years.
Question. And the reference here is consulting arrangements?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Could you tell us what you meant there?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I believe at some point perhaps Mr. Hubbell had mentioned me at some point. It may be my own notation, I'm not sure. Let me answer it this way, to be as accurate as I can be without speculating: That instead of pure legal work, that there might be consulting opportunities or arrangements for Mr. Hubbell. I think that's what that refers to.
Question. And do you have any idea what type of work Mr. Hubbell would be doing?
Answer. I became aware at some point that Mr. Hubbell had done considerable work in the environmental area in his prior law practice, so it seemed to be a possibility you could have a consulting arrangement or something of that nature. But I think this is just a notation that there might be consulting arrangements that would be beneficial to the client and be appropriate for Mr. Hubbell. I think that's what that refers to.
Question. And then when you wrote ''Mickey to help''?
Answer. It is a notation, I think, that Mr. Kantor I believe would be supportive of Mr. Hubbell. I believe that's what that means.
Question. And what did you mean? How did you think he was going to help?
Answer. I don't know my exact connotation, but I think it suggests that I think Mr. Kantor would be supportive of Mr. Hubbell in his trying to reestablish himself in the private sector, whether it is being a reference or discussing possible opportunities for Mr. Hubbell, as someone I knew was a good friend of Mr. Hubbell and had very high regard for him.
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Question. You had discussed with Mr. Kantor—you told us about the discussion you had with Mr. Hubbell resigning. But did you have discussions with Mr. Kantor about what kind of work Mr. Hubbell would do?
Answer. I don't recall any discussions with Mr. Kantor at all about Mr. Hubbell's future employment. I don't recall having any discussions with him.
Question. So when you wrote——
Mr. TAYLOR. Before you ask the next question, let me confer.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm sorry. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. When you made these notes, do you know if you—if you thought that Mr. Kantor was going to help him with work, find work?
Answer. I can't say, sitting here today, the precise meaning of this. It could have been, as I have said earlier——
Mr. BALLEN. Well, sir, no one wants you to speculate. I mean, if you know the answer, you recall it, then let's hear it. Otherwise, counsel admonished you not to speculate.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. We're also asking you to give us your best recollection of how you read these things, also.
Answer. Well, I can't say with certainty. It perhaps was something Mr. Jordan said. As I said earlier, it could reflect what he said to me. It would not have surprised me.
Question. And then you recall, independent of this you recall when you had discussion with Mr. Jordan, of Mr. Jordan saying that he was going to help Mr. Hubbell?
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Answer. I have a recollection that Mr. Jordan was empathic, as I was, with Mr. Hubbell's situation, and was going to try to be supportive of Webb during this period. I think I recall his expressing a similar attitude that I had.
Question. And other than Ron Perelman, do you recall anybody else that Mr. Jordan may have raised?
Answer. I don't recall his raising anyone with certainty, sitting here today, Ms. Comstock; and I think I commented or testified to that earlier. It is possible Mr. Jordan mentioned Mr. Perelman, but I can't say it with certainty. And I don't recall anyone else that he mentioned.
Question. And do you know, again, since you mentioned the ''H.I.'' there, do you know if Harold Ickes knows Ron Perelman or had a relationship with Ron Pearlman in any way?
Answer. I don't recall——
Mr. BALLEN. Do you know whether or not ''H.I.'' refers to Harold Ickes? Not speculating, but do you have an independent recollection?
The WITNESS. No, I don't have an independent recollection.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if when you took notes—I know Mr. Ickes often puts ''H.I.'' on his. Do you know how you refer to Mr. Ickes when you took notes?
Answer. From time to time I do refer to him as ''H.I.''
Question. And in the last sentence there on the notes that again says——
Answer. Indemnity agreement.
Question. And could you tell us if you recall anything about that? I don't recall what that notation means, sitting here today.
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Question. And Christine, do you know if that was Christine Varney?
Answer. I don't know, sitting here today, who I'm referring to there. It may mean Ms. Varney, but I can't say that with certainty.
Question. And so you have no knowledge who you may have been talking with about an indemnity agreement. Was it an indemnity agreement regarding Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I just can't say with certainty. It could have certainly meant that, but I don't know.
Question. So you cannot enlighten us in any way about what you meant in those notes?
Answer. Not on this particular entry.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'd like to make that Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Actually 220327 and 20328 together I'll make Deposition Exhibit No. 3.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–3 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm showing the witness another calendar entry from his calendar which is EOP 20250, and the date is cut off of the copy that we've received.
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. But I believe from the records in their entirety that this is March 17th, 1994. Again, is that your handwriting on that?
Answer. It is.
Question. And could you tell us what that says?
Answer. It says ''Called Truman Arnold, dash, Webb.''
Question. And does that refresh your recollection as to your discussions that you had with Truman Arnold?
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Mr. TAYLOR. Ms. Comstock, he hasn't said his recollection is exhausted. He can't refresh his recollection if he hasn't said that.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Why don't you go into the conversations you had with Truman Arnold about Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I called Mr. Arnold and asked him—or discussed with him the situation regarding Mr. Hubbell. He knew Mr. Hubbell. I was aware he knew Mr. Hubbell. And as I recall, I told Truman that I thought the transition would be a difficult one. He agreed, and I asked him to give consideration to any opportunities that he thought might be supportive of Webb in this period. He said he would do that.
Question. Do you have any understanding of what type of opportunities those would be?
Answer. No. We didn't discuss the details. I knew Mr. Arnold had a lot of business enterprises that he was establishing and building, but we did not discuss any specifics.
Question. And then, to your knowledge, what happened next that you know about Mr. Arnold and Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. Mr. Arnold told me he would give that some thought, and I believe he said he would get back to me, which I believe he did.
Question. And what did he tell you?
Answer. I believe the next call I received from Mr. Arnold, or my office did, and I believe I talked to him personally but I'm not certain of that, he requested some additional information regarding Mr. Hubbell and his background, his experience, his work experience, and asked that I provide that or get that information for him. I told him I would do so.
Question. Okay. Do you know if during that time, that time frame, if you also called Mr. Arnold from your home to discuss these matters with him, or were these just office calls that you had?
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Answer. I don't know where I placed the calls. As you know, in any responsibility you have activities you're trying to get completed, call lists completed, and they sometimes run together between office and home.
Question. Do you recall with any particular clarity any phone calls you may have had at home with Mr. Arnold, as opposed to office calls you had with him?
Answer. I don't recall where I talked to Mr. Arnold, whether it was from my office or home or some other place as we were traveling. I just simply don't remember where I was when I talked to him.
Question. And he asked about more information about Mr. Hubbell, and did you then send him any more information?
Answer. I did.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Let me make this Deposition Exhibit No. 4.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–4 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is EOP 20325 through 26, which was a letter to you from Mr. Hubbell which reads, ''Dear Mack: At your request, I am enclosing my bio. As we discussed on the phone. I will be leaving Justice on Friday, April 8th.''
And then the top of it has handwriting which I believe is your secretary, Patty McHugh.
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Which is ''Bill Burton. (Mack also sent to Truman Arnold.)'' Was that the information that you recall sending to Mr. Arnold or being requested by Mr. Arnold?
Answer. Yes, it is.
Question. And could you just tell us how, when Mr. Arnold asked you for information, what you did, and get us to the point of this document?
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Answer. I believe I called Mr. Hubbell and asked him to send some information of the type that Mr. Arnold had requested, and I believe this is what he sent in response to our telephone conversation.
Question. Do you recall if you told Mr. Hubbell about your conversation with Mr. Arnold?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. But was it—did you relate to him that Mr. Arnold may be interested in hiring him in some capacity and that you had talked to him about that?
Answer. I just simply don't remember that conversation with Mr. Hubbell.
Question. When Mr. Hubbell was sending over his bio, was there—did he have an understanding of what you were going to be using it for?
Answer. I think it is likely that I did tell him that I had discussed this with Mr. Arnold, but I just simply don't remember the conversation, but I think it was like little. I do remember Mr. Arnold asking for additional information. I remember that telephone conversation.
Question. And then there's the notation for Bill Burton for this. Do you know why he is on here?
Answer. Ms. McHugh routed this to Mr. Burton as my staff director.
Question. Do you recall any discussions you had with Mr. Burton about this?
Mr. TAYLOR. What's ''this''?
Ms. COMSTOCK. About Truman Arnold and Mr. Hubbell, about this letter, general matters relating to Truman Arnold and Mr. Hubbell.
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, that's three things. Can you ask him about a category that you want to be responsive?
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall speaking with Mr. Burton about this letter?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you recall generally speaking to Mr. Burton about Mr. Arnold being possibly interested in hiring Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I believe Mr. Burton was aware of that. I don't recall a specific conversation with him about it, although I certainly may have had one.
Question. And can you tell us what happened next, to your knowledge?
Answer. I believe at some point Mr. Arnold called me back and said that he thought there were some areas that Mr. Hubbell could be helpful to him and his enterprises, and that he thought he was going to be able to work out some type of arrangement with Mr. Hubbell.
Question. And did you learn in fact that he did at some time?
Answer. At some point Mr. Arnold may have confirmed that with me, and I think he did.
Question. Do you recall what he said?
Answer. At some point I think Mr. Arnold told me he thought Mr. Hubbell was doing a good job for him. I think that's when I really learned that the actual agreement had been consummated.
Question. Do you recall what he said Mr. Hubbell was doing for him?
Answer. No, I do not. I think it was really just a statement, something like ''Webb's doing a great job.''
Question. But you have no understanding of what the job entailed?
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Answer. No, I don't remember him discussing that in any detail, and I don't believe that he did.
Question. Did Mr. Hubbell ever tell you anything about what he was doing for Mr. Arnold?
Answer. No, I don't believe he has ever related that.
Question. Did Mr. Hubbell ever tell you about his being hired by Mr. Arnold?
Answer. No, I don't believe he did.
Question. So you never had any discussions with Mr. Hubbell about him being hired by Mr. Arnold?
Answer. I don't recall that I did.
Question. So other than—let me make it clear. When Mr. Hubbell sent over his bio, did he—do you recall if he knew that it was going to Mr. Arnold, or was this just generally your getting the bio for anybody who might be interested in it?
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I believe that I requested the bio from Mr. Hubbell for Mr. Arnold and told him that, and told him Truman was considering discussing with him certain employment possibilities. And I think that is what that relates to. I can't say, sitting here today, that I independently remember that telephone conversation with Mr. Hubbell, but I think that is highly likely what was the sequence of events.
Question. And do you recall Mr. Hubbell ever thanking you or saying anything to you about Mr. Arnold?
Answer. I just simply don't remember that he did.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make this Deposition Exhibit No. 5.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–5 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Are you aware of any other efforts by Mr. Arnold to help Mr. Hubbell get other contracts with people?
Answer. Mr. Arnold may have told me in one of our conversations that he was perhaps going to approach others about the possibility of seeing if they had any opportunities for Webb. I think he may have mentioned that to me.
Question. Do you recall who the others were?
Answer. I don't know that he related specific individuals. He may have. I don't recall his doing so.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of him contacting Bernard Rapoport?
Answer. I don't believe Mr. Arnold told me that he either had or told me he was going to. It is possible that he did, but I don't believe so. He may have suggested he was giving some thought to contacting some individuals and may have even mentioned them by name. I don't remember that he did.
Question. Okay. And you know Mr. Rapoport; is that correct?
Answer. I do.
Question. Did you ever have any conversations yourself with Mr. Rapoport about his hiring Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I don't believe I ever talked with Mr. Rapoport about Mr. Hubbell.
Question. At all about his employment?
Answer. About his employment. That's what I was talking about. I want to be sure I understood the question. No, to the very best of my memory and knowledge, I never talked with Mr. Rapoport about employment with Mr. Hubbell.
Question. Do you know Wayne Reaud?
Answer. Yes, I am acquainted with Mr. Reaud.
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Question. Tell us how long you've known him.
Answer. I believe I've known him for 4 or 5 years.
Question. And how did you come to know him?
Answer. I believe Mr. Arnold introduced me to Mr. Reaud.
Question. And do you have any knowledge of Mr. Reaud hiring Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No. I believe I learned that at some later point in time, perhaps even through the public press. Again, it is possible Mr. Arnold mentioned Mr. Reaud to me, but I don't believe that he did.
Question. And again, for any of—Mr. Rapoport or Mr. Reaud or others who you may have heard of, did you have any—a sense of what Mr. Hubbell was doing for them?
Answer. No, I—no, I do not.
Question. I think you had indicated that had you thought Mr. Arnold thought Mr. Hubbell was doing a good job, is about what you can recall.
Answer. I think I recall his making a statement of that type to me at some later period after the March period.
Question. Would you be surprised to learn that Mr. Arnold really hasn't had any work that he had Mr. Hubbell doing?
Answer. I don't know anything about what Mr. Hubbell did, nor Mr. Arnold.
Question. If, in fact, Mr. Hubbell hadn't done any actual work for Mr. Arnold, would that surprise you?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object. That's a speculative question, calls for a hypothetical. The witness has already testified he didn't know the nature of the work that was being done.
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Mr. TAYLOR. You can answer the question.
The WITNESS. I just simply don't know anything about the employment, and you're really—I just simply don't know anything about what Mr. Hubbell did or did not do for Mr. Arnold.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Would any of these, Mr. Arnold or any of these other people—do you recall whether you ever discussed any type of indemnity agreement with them at all?
Answer. No, I don't believe I did.
Question. Relating to Mr. Hubbell of course.
Answer. Yes, I understood your question. No, I don't believe I did.
Question. This is another calendar entry. Again, this is your handwriting; is that correct?
Answer. It is.
Question. This calendar is EOP 20252. I'm not sure if it is cut off, but I believe the date on this—which again is cut off but we've received these in sequence—I believe the date is March 28th. Does that say ''Hubbell, Vernon, Truman'' there?
Answer. It does.
Question. Do you recall if that was a meeting that you had with Mr. Hubbell and Mr. Jordan and Truman Arnold?
Answer. No, I don't believe I've ever had a meeting with Mr. Hubbell, Mr. Jordan and Mr. Arnold together.
Question. Do you know what that entry refers to?
Answer. I believe it is a notation to talk to Mr. Jordan and Mr. Arnold about Mr. Hubbell.
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Question. Okay.
[Mr. Schumann enters room].
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will have that marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 6.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–6 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Can you just generally tell us, aside from Mr. Arnold and these others that you may have heard about that Mr. Hubbell spoke to, are there other people that you knew about who were going to hire Mr. Hubbell in the spring-summer of '94?
Answer. I don't think I knew anyone who was going to hire Mr. Hubbell, Ms. Comstock, other than Mr. Arnold told me at some point that he thought he could use Webb in some of his activities. To the best of my memory, that is the only employment opportunity that I recall knowing about that Mr. Hubbell was undertaking.
As I have testified before, it is possible that Mr. Arnold mentioned some other people he might be contacting, either generically or by name. I don't recall his doing that, but he may have mentioned that, but I don't know when I learned that they had some type of agreement with Mr. Hubbell. I think it was sometime later, perhaps even from public notice.
Question. In the spring and summer of 1994, can you generally recall how often you were in touch with Mr. Hubbell in the months after he left the Justice Department?
Answer. No, I can't—I can't recall how many times. I perhaps talked to him once or twice but I don't recall these times.
Question. Just once or twice in a matter of months?
Answer. Yes, I believe that's correct.
Question. So were you not in frequent contact with him during that time?
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Answer. No, I was not.
Question. So it wasn't a once a week call or checking in, ''How are you doing?''
Answer. No.
Question. You just had a few isolated conversations with him?
Answer. If that.
Question. Did you have any occasion to see him on social occasions with groups of people in that time frame?
Answer. I don't recall that Donna and I saw him at social occasions. It is possible. I recall one instance where we saw Mrs. Hubbell.
Question. And when was that?
Answer. Oh, it was some months after Mr. Hubbell's resignation, and we happened to see her at a restaurant and had a brief exchange with her.
Question. So did you go to any—Mr. Hubbell resigned on April 8th. Did you go to any parties or things that people had when he resigned or events they had for him at that time?
Answer. No, I don't recall that I did.
Question. And do you recall any events that Truman Arnold had that you attended that Mr. Hubbell was at?
Answer. I don't believe I attended any events that Mr. Arnold had, either on behalf of Mr. Hubbell or where Mr. Hubbell was. It's possible I did, but I don't recall them.
Question. Do you recall being invited to some that you were not able to attend?
Answer. I may well have been invited.
Question. I want to go through a few of Mr. Hubbell's other employers and establish your knowledge or lack thereof of his employers.
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Do you know anything about Mr. Hubbell doing any work for the Lippo Group?
Answer. I do now.
Question. When did you first learn about it?
Answer. I believe I read about it in the public press sometime probably in the last year. I don't recall the specific time.
Question. So prior to press accounts of Mr. Hubbell working with the Lippo Group, you had no knowledge of that?
Answer. Yes, I don't believe I had any knowledge of that.
Mr. TAYLOR. That is the question? You don't need to tell her about press accounts at this point.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know the Riadys?
Answer. I do.
Question. Would you tell us how you know them?
Answer. I met James Riady and his wife, I believe in the late '70s, at a dinner party in their honor in Arkansas.
Question. And how often would you see Mr. Riady, James Riady?
Answer. During that period, Ms. Comstock?
Question. Well, what your relationship is or social relationship is, how you would characterize it?
Answer. I believe that's the only time that we saw Mr. Riady during the period that he lived in Arkansas, was on that one occasion.
Question. And did you have any occasion to meet with Mr. Riady in the White House at any time in 1993?
Answer. Yes, I did.
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Question. Could you describe those meetings?
Answer. I believe I had an occasion to meet with Mr. Riady and, I believe, the governor of Jakarta, Indonesia, that had a sister city relationship either with Little Rock or with Arkansas, and we had, I think, a 15-minute visit sometime during 1993.
Question. Was this a meeting that Charlie Trie had worked to set up, do you recall?
Answer. No, I don't believe so.
Question. Other than that meeting, do you recall any other?
Answer. I believe I had lunch with Mr. Riady and Mr. Giroir and Mr. Middleton sometime later that year in the White House Mess.
Question. Do you recall how that came about?
Answer. I believe Mr. Giroir requested that meeting.
Question. Does Mr. Giroir do work for the Riadys or the Lippo Group?
Mr. BALLEN. Does he now or did he at the time?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you have knowledge if he does, and if so, when?
Answer. I believe I have read public press accounts that he does. I'm sorry, Mr. Taylor. When we had the luncheon, I don't remember Mr. Giroir saying he worked for the Lippo Group or my asking. I don't think I gave that matter any thought.
Question. Do you recall why were these people together or how they came to be together at the White House meeting with you?
Answer. I knew Mr. Giroir had known Mr. Riady from his time in Arkansas and they were acquainted with each other in that way. And the purpose of the luncheon, as I understood it, was to encourage outreach development with the Asian Pacific region, which was consistent with the President's trade agenda.
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Question. And Mr. Giroir had Asian business?
Answer. I don't know whether he did or not.
Question. And do you have an understanding that Mr. Riady did have business in Asia?
Answer. Yes. My understanding was that he and his family had substantial business interests throughout the world, but certainly in Asia.
Question. In 1992, were you aware of the Riadys being contributors to the Clinton-Gore campaign?
Answer. I don't believe that I was.
Question. Were you aware of them being large contributors to the DNC?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. So you had no knowledge about them giving large contributions to State parties in 1992?
Answer. No, I don't believe that I was.
Question. You never heard anything about that in the course of the '92 campaign?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. And were there any other meetings that you had with the Riadys while you've been at the White House?
Answer. Let me think just for a moment. I believe I had seen Mr. Riady the ASEAN business group meeting that I spoke to in 1995 or 1996. I believe he was in attendance. It was a relatively large gathering, a hundred people or more.
Question. Is that A-S-E-A-N, is that how that's spelled?
Answer. A-S-E-A-N, that's right. And then I saw Mr. Riady, I believe, at the APEC Conference in Seattle in 1993, which the United States hosted and I attended.
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Question. Do you recall meeting with him at that '93 conference?
Answer. No. I recall seeing him at that conference. There were a number of business leaders, both U.S. and from the Asian Pacific region, there. And I believe Mr. Riady was in attendance. I can't recall any other meetings, Ms. Comstock. I believe you asked me about meetings in the White House. I believe that's what you said, and I don't recall any others. There may have been others but I don't believe there were.
Question. Do you recall if you ever met with Mr. Riady in Jakarta, on the APAC trip to Jakarta in November of '94?
Answer. I did not attend the APAC meeting in Jakarta.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of the President meeting with Mr. Riady in November of '94 on that APAC trip?
Answer. I believe I learned he had seen Mr. Riady when he was there and I believe that was reported in the press.
Question. Do you recall if you knew before it was reported in the press?
Answer. I don't believe so.
Question. Why don't I return to Lippo and Mr. Hubbell.
So you had no knowledge of Lippo hiring Mr. Hubbell at any time?
Answer. No, not during this time period, not until a much later time period.
Question. And that was from press account itself; is that correct?
Answer. Yes, I believe that's right.
Question. And during, as we were discussing the employers, the time frame between April 8th when he leaves, or say March whether he decides he is going to leave and Mr. Hubbell is trying to find out what kind of work he is going to do, and then his plea was on December 6, 1994, so if we could look at that time frame in these questions.
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Did you have any knowledge of him making any foreign trips in that time frame?
Answer. No, I was not—I did not have any knowledge.
Question. You never heard of anyone at the White House talking about where he was, his traveling or anything like that?
Answer. In 1994, I believe that's right, maybe 1995, there was discussion about an Arkansas group traveling to the APAC meeting in Indonesia, and I believe Mr. Hubbell was among that group that was considering going. Whether he ended up going, I honestly don't know. That would have been the only knowledge I would have had of any foreign travel on his part.
Question. Were you aware of the Riadys' meeting with Mark Middleton frequently or being waved into the White House by Mr. Middleton?
Answer. I was aware that Mr. Middleton saw the Riadys from time to time or Mr. James Riady from time to time.
Question. And what was your understanding of those meetings?
Answer. Mr. Middleton served as a liaison person for me, and from time to time had outreach to certain business leaders and, in that context I think I was aware from time to time that he saw Mr. Riady.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton ever tell you about any work Mr. Hubbell was doing for the Riadys?
Answer. No, he did not.
Question. You're aware that Mr. Middleton has taken the Fifth Amendment in this investigation?
Answer. I have read some press accounts. I don't know what position he has taken or not taken, other than just what I read in the press. I don't know the status of that, I guess is the correct status or answer.
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Question. Do you have any knowledge of anything you know of that Mr. Middleton did at the White House that would be incriminating of Mr. Middleton?
Answer. No, I don't.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object to that question. I don't think it is fair to ask the question of a witness about whether someone else may be asserting their constitutional rights or not. But he may answer the question.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, that wasn't the question.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm going to move through some of the other employers.
So there is no other knowledge you have of Mr. Hubbell doing any work with Riady or the Lippo Group?
Answer. No.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm going to object. That's the third time, for the record, that same question has been asked.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And Pacific Telesis, did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for Pacific Telesis?
Answer. No, I don't believe that I did.
Question. Do you know Jack Williams?
Answer. I do.
Question. How do you know Mr. Williams?
Answer. Mr. Williams is from Texarkana, which is 30 miles from my hometown of Hope, was a community leader there, and I have known him for 20 years or so.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Jack Williams helping Mr. Hubbell in any way with any work?
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Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Did you have any knowledge about Mr. Hubbell working or doing consulting work for the Sprint company?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. And McAndrews & Forbes, did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work with McAndrews & Forbes? Ron Perelman is affiliated with them, and you have testified about Mr. Perelman. So I just want to put it in that context, any knowledge you might have on that.
Answer. I appreciate that. I don't have any knowledge of whether he worked for Mr. Perelman or McAndrews & Forbes or not. I do believe—at some point I believe Mr. Jordan mentioned that to me as a possibility.
Question. Do you know Howard Gittis at McAndrews & Forbes?
Answer. No, I do not. I don't believe I know him.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for Mid-America Dairymen?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell doing any work for Sun-America?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. A company affiliated with Eli Broad?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know Mr. Broad?
Answer. I'm acquainted with Mr. Broad.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Broad assisting Mr. Hubbell in any way?
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Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Hubbell doing any work for the LAX airport, the City of Los Angeles?
Answer. Other than what I've read in public press accounts, no, I do not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Hubbell doing any work for the Consumer Support & Education Fund?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know Mr. John Phillips?
Answer. It is possible I met Mr. Phillips, but I don't—I don't know him. It is possible I met him at a social event.
Question. Just to return a little bit to the Lippo, there are some people you may have know besides Mr. Riady know are do you know Jose Hanna with the Lippo Group or LippoBank.
Answer. No, I don't believe I know Mr. Hanna.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Susan Thomases doing any work for LippoBank or Lippo affiliates?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Are you aware of trusts set up by Mr. Mike Schaufele for Mr. Hubbell's family? S-C-H-A-U-F-E-L-E?
Answer. I think I know who you're referring to. Other than public press accounts, no, I do not.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell writing a book?
Answer. No, other than again public press accounts, I do not.
Question. You had mentioned in regards to the Lippo Group that until you saw press accounts you didn't know about it. When you read the press accounts, did you have any discussions with Mr. Hubbell about the Lippo Group?
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Answer. No, I did not.
Question. When is the last time you have had a conversation or contact with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I had a perchance encounter with him about a month when my son and I were eating in a restaurant here in Washington and he happened to be dining at the same restaurant. I shook hands with him.
Question. And prior to that?
Answer. I can't recall when is the last time I've seen Webb prior to that, Ms. Comstock. It has been, I think, a number of months, perhaps well over a year.
Question. And your discussion, did that encounter social greetings?
Answer. I shook hands and wished him well.
Question. Did you have any discussion with anyone at the White House about, once the public information came out about the Lippo Group, about will Hubbell work for Lippo group?
Answer. I don't recall that I did and I don't believe that I did.
Question. What was your understanding, if any, of what kind of money Mr. Hubbell was making in 1994?
Answer. I had no idea.
Question. Were you surprised to read the press accounts of him making upwards of half a million dollars?
Answer. I was surprised to learn of some of the employers, just simply because I didn't know about them. I don't know about the terms of the arrangements.
Question. Were you surprised to learn about the Lippo Group and a $100,999 payment?
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Answer. I don't know that I really had any—any particular reaction to it. I just simply didn't focus on it.
Question. Did you have any curiosity about it or ask anybody about it?
Answer. I really did not give it very much thought. I just simply did not know about it, and so I was surprised to read about it simply because I didn't know about it. I just didn't give it any thought.
Question. You never had any discussions with anyone at the White House about, gee, what did Webb do for $100,000 with the Lippo Group?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Nothing like that?
Answer. No, nothing like that.
Question. When did you first learn that Mr. Hubbell was going to plead guilty to the charges relating or related to his law firm?
Answer. Either from public accounts, I believe in December of 1994, or shortly before the public accounts.
Question. Were you aware of him talking with the President and the First Lady at or around—I mean, his plea was on December 6, 1994. Were you aware of him talking with the President or First Lady at or around Thanksgiving of 1994 about this situation?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. Have you ever had any discussions with the President or the First Lady about Mr. Hubbell's plea?
Answer. No, I can't recall that I have.
Question. Following the plea, any reaction from the President or the First Lady that you recall?
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Answer. I don't recall their making any statements in my presence or having any discussion with them about the plea.
Question. At all?
Answer. I don't recall any.
Question. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Hubbell at or around the time of his guilty plea?
Answer. No, I don't believe that I did.
Question. Do you recall—you said you had had one or two contacts with him in the months following his resignation. Do you recall that? Just do you recall, just generally, one or two contacts between say March and December of '94?
Answer. Yes. That's as I recall it limited contacts, isolated contacts I think was your worlds, one or two. I don't know the exact number.
Question. And then if you can place in time after the guilty plea, do you recall any contacts with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I don't believe I talked with Mr. Hubbell after the guilty plea, Ms. Comstock. It is possible that I did, but I don't believe that I did.
Question. This is a March 9th, 1995, calendar entry. Again, I believe this is your handwriting; is that correct?
Answer. Yes, it is.
Question. Okay. And could you tell us what that says, the entry there?
Answer. It says ''Calls, get it done, Nussbaum, Webb, Middleton.''
Question. And can you recall generally in March of '95 what calls to Nussbaum or Webb or Middleton would be about?
Answer. No, I cannot. This is a reminder to call these people or to make an attempt to. I don't recall calling Mr. Hubbell during this period, Ms. Comstock. I may have, but I don't believe that I did.
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Question. Do you recall any discussion in the White House in an—it is actually going back to '94, about subpoenas that were going to Mr. Hubbell at or around May of 1994, the summer of '94, they were also simultaneous with subpoenas that were also going to the White House at that time from Mr. Fisk, then subsequently Mr. Starr, started in August of 1994?
Answer. I don't recall any discussion about subpoenas during this period regarding Mr. Hubbell. Certainly I could have had some discussions, but I don't recall any. And I don't believe that I did.
Question. And then returning to March of '95, do you recall just in the spring of '95 any matters related to Mr. Hubbell that you needed to make a call?
Answer. May I confer with my attorney for a minute?
[Witness confers with counsel.]
The WITNESS. Ms. Comstock, I can't say, sitting here today, with certainty what this jotted line of to do list means. I think the general premise here is calls. They are not related. I think they are individual calls that I need to make or want to make that day.
And I believe the notation is to remind me that I would like to call Webb to see how he is doing. I believe he is in prison at this time, if I'm not mistaken.
EXAMINATION BY MR. COMSTOCK:
Question. Actually, he didn't go to prison until August of '95.
Answer. Then I'm mistaken on the time frame. I don't believe that I called him. It is possible that I did but I don't believe that I did. I believe at some point I asked my attorney whether or not that would be appropriate and——
Mr. TAYLOR. Don't tell her what we discussed, but——
The WITNESS. I conferred with my attorney.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. We'll extrapolate.
The WITNESS. It is possible that I called him but I don't believe that I did.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall, on or around the spring of '95, what you were calling Mr. Nussbaum about?
Answer. I think to see how he is doing in private life.
Question. And then Mr. Middleton, also?
Answer. I don't recall what I was calling Mr. or Mark, calling Mark about.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit No. 7.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–7 was marked for identification.]
The WITNESS. It looks like it is a composite of former colleagues and I'm just trying to touch base, to continue a relationship.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Going back a little in time, this is April of '94, a calendar entry.
Mr. TAYLOR. What was the last exhibit?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is EOP 52252 and it is an April 26 entry. Again, that is your handwriting?
Answer. It is.
Question. And can you read what that says?
Answer. It says ''Burton memo on Webb, HR, for HRC and POTUS,'' or President.
Question. And then that's crossed out?
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Answer. Yes, it is.
Question. And can you tell us what that means generally when—is that if you cross it out, or if you recall the practice?
Answer. Yes, I can give you a description of what I think my system means. Normally this sidebar means that I have intended to do it but probably haven't fully gotten it done, and when I get it done I usually put a check mark, and then a cross-out means I probably carried it over to the next day, just kind of finished one day and carried over to the next even though they are not done.
Question. And can you tell us if there was a Burton memo on Webb Hubbell to the President and the First Lady?
Answer. To the best of my knowledge, there is not.
Question. Do you recall any discussion, how this came about that you were thinking about—or if you were thinking about having a Burton memo on Webb Hubbell to the President and First Lady?
Answer. I believe to the best of my memory, sitting here today, that I had thought about dropping a brief memo to the President and/or the First Lady to let them know that I had been supportive of Webb and the transition, while difficult, was not going to be just completely an impossible one. I thought they would be comforted by that. As it turned out, I don't think we ever prepared a memo. I think at some point in time I may have mentioned something to the President and/or the First Lady about it.
Question. And what do you recall mentioning to them?
Answer. I think that I related that I had had an encouraging conversation with Truman Arnold and that he was considering using Webb in some manner in some of his companies.
Question. And what was the President's response?
Answer. I don't recall, Ms. Comstock, sitting here today, that conversation or relating it to him. I believe it is likely that I did. But I simply just can't tell you what his action or reaction was because I don't recall the actual conversation.
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Question. Do you recall any discussions with the First Lady about——
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Then was this memo going to be about Mr. Hubbell's employment or what he was going to be doing?
Answer. I don't remember——
Mr. TAYLOR. That's the question.
The WITNESS. I don't know.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Well, if you were going to be doing a memo, was there ever any attempt to find out, other than Mr. Arnold, who else was helping Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. As I already testified, I don't know whether Mr. Arnold had related he might be contacting others or not. He could have. I don't remember his doing so.
Question. Well, you indicated you had wanted to let the President know that Mr. Hubbell was able to support himself or was going to be okay. Was that the gist of what you were trying to relay to the President?
Answer. I think to the President or First Lady, that I had not abandoned friend and former colleague.
Question. And in that regard, you didn't—in that regard you didn't reach out to find out who else may be helping him. You were just relating what you did?
Answer. That's right. That's right.
Question. Were you aware of others informing the President or the First Lady about assistance that had been provided to Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I don't know whether others informed the President or First Lady or not.
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Question. Were these conversations you normally had with the President about colleagues who had left, and from time to time did you tell him, here is what Mr. Nussbaum is doing or here is what Mr. Watkins is doing, when he left?
Answer. Oh, I think from time to time you had some conversations of that type. I don't—I don't know that it wasn't—you had mutual friends that could come up in discussions, I guess, or conversations, is the best way to respond to your question.
Question. Do you recall if there were any similar concerns, say about Mr. David Watkins, who left in May of '94, how he was going to be supporting himself, what he was going to be doing?
Answer. I really did not compare Mr. Hubbell's situation with Mr. Watkins. I think it had more frankly the perspective of the loss of Mr. Foster as a partner to the Rose Law Firm and mutual friend, a close friend of the President's. So I really had that perspective in Mr. Hubbell's resignation.
Question. And Mr. Watkins, hasn't he been a long time friend of the President also?
Answer. He had been a friend of the President, as I understood it. I don't believe he was a close personal friend, as Mr. Hubbell and Mr. Foster were.
Question. So there wasn't a concern that you ever relayed, here's how Mr. Watkins is taking care of himself now, or here's where he is working, to the President?
Answer. I was supportive of Mr. Watkins in his finding employment after he left the White House. I had had known him virtually all of my life, and I believe I related that to the President. But again I didn't equate the two here.
Ms. COMSTOCK. We'll make this notation of the Burton memo Deposition Exhibit No. 8.
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[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–8 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. On the Burton memo, do you know if you ever talked to Mr. Burton about doing such a memo or ever began the process?
Answer. I may have. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge if he ever began any attempt to find out what kind of work Mr. Hubbell had gotten?
Answer. No, I don't know whether he did or not. I don't recall his ever discussing that with me or my ever discussing it with him.
Question. So you never saw any drafts of any type of memo or anything like that?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. This is another calendar entry of June 20th, 1995.
And, again, this is your handwriting; is that correct?
Answer. It is.
Question. And does that say Webb meeting?
Answer. It does, Ms. Comstock, but I believe it does not refer to Webb Hubbell. It is a weekly economic briefing which is known in the White House as the web. It is a weekly report prepared by the Council of Economic Advisors that I attend from time to time.
Question. Okay, very good. Thank you.
Did you ever have any contact with Mr. Hubbell prior to his going to prison, any you recall in particular. There were some parties before he went to prison. Do you recall being involved in anything like that, dinners or parties?
Mr. TAYLOR. This would be in the summer of '95?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Summer of '95. It was early August of '95.
Answer. Ms. Comstock, I don't recall our attending any parties or events of that type. It is possible that we did. It is possible that I saw Mr. Hubbell, but I don't believe so, before he went to prison.
Question. And do you know Marsha Scott, who worked at the White House?
Answer. I do.
Question. Were you aware of her being in touch with Mr. Hubbell on any kind of regular basis?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. Were you aware she was in touch with Mr. Hubbell in general?
Answer. I'll not sure I would characterize it ''in touch.'' I knew Ms. Scott was a friend of Mr. Hubbell's and was concerned about him.
Question. And what makes you say that?
Answer. She had conveyed those concerns to me shortly after his resignation, as I remember.
Question. I'm showing you a March 29th phone message to you from Marsha Scott which says ''Need to talk or meet for few minutes re Webb,'' with two Bs.
Do you recall, at or around the time of Mr. Hubbell's resignation, that's when you recall talking with Ms. Scott?
Answer. I have a vague recollection, that I believe this phone call refers to, of talking with Ms. Scott.
Question. And did she talk to you about who he was going to be working with or anything like that?
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Answer. No, I don't recall that that was the nature of the visit at all.
Question. And the nature of the visit then is just——
Answer. As I remember it, she expressed concern about Webb and his family and expressed the view that we should continue—that he should not be abandoned by his friends, that that was important, she felt, for us to continue as individuals to display our friendship to him and his family.
Question. Did she ever over the months and years talk to you about Mr. Hubbell's work or anything he was doing?
Answer. I don't recall Ms. Scott ever raising anything with me about Mr. Hubbell's work or really anything else about Mr. Hubbell. I don't recall anything of that nature.
Question. Were you ever aware of her relaying to anybody else at the White House or the President or the First Lady her visits with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. No, I'm not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit No. 9.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. These are also notes. I believe some of the handwriting is your secretary's. Some appears to be yours. We don't have a date on them. If you can make any sense of these for us, the first page, 20241, ''Webb Hubbell calling,'' would that be your secretary Patty McHugh's handwriting?
Answer. Yes, I believe it is.
Question. Then a second page, EOP 20242, those would be your notes; is that correct?
Answer. It appears to be my handwriting. But this is a barely legible copy, but it appears to be my handwriting.
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Question. Okay. I don't know if you can make out any of that handwriting, because of the page being so dark, but if you can.
Answer. I think I remember what these notations refer to.
Question. Okay. Could you tell us, please?
Answer. I think they are notes that I had made that reflect a concern, I believe in 1994, although it is not dated, about citizens in Arkansas or people in Arkansas feeling somewhat disenfranchised, and that perhaps we need to consider a stronger, more effective, outreach operation in Arkansas, given that it is the President's home State and many friends of long standing and supporters, and given the environment, which was increasingly a hostile one, to make sure that our position was conveyed. I believe that's what these notes refer to.
Question. And the next page, 20244, it is your secretary's handwriting, says, ''Harold is here,'' and then your handwriting on——
Answer. I don't, Ms. Comstock, believe these are related. I just simply don't know without—was this on the back of this, or do you know?
Question. I believe so. This is just how we got it from the White House. We haven't had much explanation on it.
Answer. All I can tell you, not to get into minutia here, to save time, sometimes my secretary walks in with a note and says someone is here, if I'm on the phone or something of this nature. That's what this would refer to, is probably Mr. Ickes is here to see you, how long are you going to be? I don't know whether this note relates to this at all, and I don't have any memory or reason to believe it does. I believe it says ''Janet Reno, community position, Webb,'' and I just, sitting here today, don't have any idea what that means.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. This will be Deposition Exhibit No. 10.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–10 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Has the President ever expressed any concern to you, to the present day, about Mr. Hubbell being untruthful with him or the First Lady?
Answer. I have a vague recollection at some point in time the President made a comment that Webb's being untruthful surprised us all, something of that nature. I can't place a date but I have a vague recollection of the President making a comment of that type to me.
Question. And can you place that in time?
Answer. No.
Question. Recently or——
Answer. I think it is some period back but not recently, no.
Question. Can you place it in the context of were you talking privately with the President or——
Answer. I really only had recollection—you're asking me the question. I want to be responsive to you, and that's all I remember.
Question. And do you have any recollection of any discussion with the First Lady about Mr. Hubbell's being——
Answer. No I don't believe I've ever discussed Mr. Hubbell and his situation with the First Lady other than what we've discussed today on the March 13th meeting. I don't recall any other discussion.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Hubbell going to Camp David in the summer of '94 to talk with the President?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. So other than press accounts about that, you had no knowledge of that meeting occurring?
Answer. That's correct. I have no knowledge.
Question. Did you ever advise the President anything about meeting with Mr. Hubbell in that time frame after he left the Justice Department, on whether or not he should meet with him?
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Answer. I don't believe the President and I have ever discussed that.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if anyone in the White House ever made any recommendations one way or the other to him about meeting with Mr. Hubbell?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. I wanted to go into some matters related to Mark Middleton.
Could you tell us how long you have known Mr. Middleton?
Answer. I met Mr. Middleton several years ago when I believe he requested a meeting with me after he graduated from the University of Arkansas. I don't know what year that was. Probably in the late '80s, early '90s.
Question. Okay. And did you——
Answer. I met with him for about 15 minutes.
Question. And did you hire him or——
Answer. No. He had been president of the student body at the University of Arkansas, as I had been, and I did give him a courtesy meeting. He expressed interest in staying in the State, and I think expressed an interest, a possible interest, in working with Arkla. I told him I did not think we had any open positions, but I wished him well and was glad he was going to stay in the State.
Question. And were you familiar with him working on the campaign in 1992?
Answer. I believe I was aware of that.
Question. Were you aware of him doing fund-raising?
Answer. I don't know that I knew specifically what job he was doing. I was not part of the formal campaign and only went to campaign headquarters a couple of times during that period.
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Question. Can you tell us how he came to be employed in your office, in the Chief of Staff's Office in 1993?
Answer. I had met—Mark, as I said, impressed me as a professional. When the President asked me to serve as Chief of Staff, and when it was announced, there was a plethora of phone calls and mail, and I immediately tried to assemble on very short notice some staff support. Mr. Middleton seemed like the type of energetic, capable young professional that could return 100 of the 300 calls I was receiving a day. So that's how he came to work initially informally in December, and I was impressed with his work. I think he asked to be on my staff, and I felt like I would be getting similar phone calls, and I wanted those matters to be treated courteously and thought Mr. Middleton would be capable of being an executive assistant, special assistant in that regard.
Question. So you hired Mr. Middleton for your office?
Answer. I did, I did.
Question. Do you recall if the President made any recommendations on hiring Mr. Middleton for your office?
Answer. I don't recall the President making any recommendations, and I think I told the President, and he had a favorable view of Mr. Middleton, but I don't recall he recommended I hire him.
Question. Okay. And was—could you just tell us what Mr. Middleton's duties were when he came on board?
Answer. Essentially they were as I described. I would say an executive assistant, special assistant, and most of that work, Ms. Comstock, I would say, I would describe at least as a liaison function of handling the many phone calls, correspondence, those types of things that one normally gets in a position like Chief of Staff.
Question. And was part of his outreach going to be with the Arkansas community?
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Answer. Yes, it was.
Question. And would it be Arkansas business community also?
Answer. It would include Arkansas business community, but not be limited to it.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm showing the witness a document that's from Mark Middleton to you. It's EOP 52422, a memo to Mack McLarty from Mark Middleton regarding outreach efforts. It begins with, ''Pursuant to our conversation earlier in the week, I have given considerable thought to how we could better service our supporters,'' and then it goes on to talk about events such as White House dinners and radio addresses are mentioned, Air Force One.
On the second page, ''I don't think there should ever be an empty seat on board the aircraft. This is a major perk and should be provided selectively, but nonetheless fully utilized.''
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall getting this memo?
Answer. I do.
Question. And is that your handwriting on the top of the memo?
Answer. Yes, it is.
Question. And could you tell us what that says generally on the top?
Answer. It has notations, ''Phil'' and ''HI,'' which I believe refer to Phil Lader and Harold Ickes. ''Joan,'' I believe, refers to Joan Baggett. ''Bruce'' refers to Bruce Lindsey. ''Marcia,'' I don't know whether that refers to Marsha Scott or Marcia Hale. Both were working in the White House at this time. ''Mark'' probably refers to Mark Gearan, and ''Alexis'' would refer to Alexis Herman.
Question. And do you recall discussing this memo with Mr. Middleton?
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Answer. I have a vague recollection of discussing it with him.
Question. And do you know when this document was done?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. You mentioned you thought ''Mark'' was Mark Gearan. Would you have sent something to Mark Gearan during the time when he was in the—was he initially in the Deputy Chief of Staff's Office or Communications, I'm forgetting which?
Answer. You got it. Deputy Chief of Staff and then Communications.
Question. Would you have normally sent something to him when he was in the Deputy Chief of Staff's Office as opposed to Communications, or did it vary?
Answer. It varied. I could well have seen him in either or both.
Question. And then I guess Phil Lader. When was he in the position?
Answer. I believe Phil Lader was Deputy Chief of Staff at this time, and Mr. Gearan was in Communications.
Question. Okay. And so does that give you a sense of what that time frame would be?
Answer. Without really checking my records, I just simply can't tell you what time frame this would be. I don't recall when Mr. Lader joined the White House as Deputy Chief of Staff without reviewing my records. I just don't recall the date.
Mr. TAYLOR. Would it be fair to say that it's after Harold came and before Mark left?
The WITNESS. I think that's a good way to describe it.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Harold didn't join until January of 1994, so the memo would be sometime after January of 1994?
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Mr. TAYLOR. And before February of '95.
The WITNESS. I think that does put a time frame on it.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. So probably sometime in 1994, okay.
Do you recall generally the discussions with Mr. Middleton—I'm sorry, we have gotten a little way from the question, and you may have answered it some, but could you just discuss generally what you recall?
Answer. My testimony was I had a vague recollection of—I had seen the memo, and I had a vague recollection of discussing it with Mr. Middleton.
Question. And what was that discussion?
Answer. I am not sure, Ms. Comstock, sitting here today I can tell you much more than that, that I remember. It would be really reconstruction.
Question. Do you recall discussing with Mr. Middleton various perks or things at the White House that could be provided to major donors?
Answer. No, I cannot. My recollection is that we were mindful of not to lose touch with those that had supported us and wanted an organized, orderly effort to do that. That's what I remember the basis of this memorandum discussion. I just don't remember any more about the specifics of it.
Question. Mr. Middleton is specifically discussing in paragraph 2 final donors; is that correct?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Do you recall discussing financial donors with Mr. Middleton?
Answer. Yes, I had some discussions from time to time with him about that, primarily in light of the DNC budget, which, as Chief of Staff, I had some responsibility for coordination in that regard, and I believe that's the context here.
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Question. In particular he talks about sort of the level of donors, and I would suggest that we reach all the way back to the $20,000 contribution level.
Do you recall any level of donors that you were going to reach out to?
Answer. No, I don't recall any level of that specific nature.
Question. Then again, the next sentence says, I am presently attempting to identify DNC trustees who have fallen between the cracks, and there are several.
Do you recall discussing with him identifying DNC trustees?
Mr. TAYLOR. Who have fallen between the cracks?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Or just generally discussing DNC trustees.
Answer. No, I have a recollection of receiving this memorandum, and I have a recollection of a discuss with Mark, but I just don't remember the specifics of it, Ms. Comstock.
Question. Do you recall if you asked him to do anything else after this memo?
Answer. No, I do not know whether I asked him to do anything as a follow-up or not.
Question. And do you know if—in the beginning he says, ''Pursuant to our conversation earlier in the week.'' Do you know if others were present during that conversation?
Answer. No, I do not know whether it was just a conversation between Mr. Middleton and me or whether there were others in the conversation that this memorandum refers to. I just don't know.
Question. And do you know, is the situation at the top—do you know why you would send it to these various people, or—is it your testimony that you did send it to the people who are identified on the top?
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Answer. The notations—no, that's not my testimony.
Question. Okay. I'm sorry.
Answer. The notations could suggest that, but they could also suggest that I either planned a visit with these individuals or get their views as well. So the notations could mean either, and it's hard sitting here today to know whether it was sent or whether they are notes to myself to visit with these individuals.
Mr. BALLEN. Do you have an independent recollection, sir, of what they meant?
The WITNESS. No, I do not.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. On the number 2 where it says, ''Desk''?
Answer. That's to bring back to my desk, to have it on my desk.
Question. Is that usually how you would say—you know, you would say, I want a copy for my desk?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. I'm just trying to understand notations. Would 1 be a copy to Phil, and 2 be a copy to ''my desk''?
Answer. The desk would mean to bring it back to my desk, and 1 could mean a copy to Phil.
Question. Because you are not going to talk to your desk, right?
Answer. No, I would not. No, it means to bring it back to my desk.
Question. And the P 2 weeks, is that your notations for pending 2 weeks?
Answer. I believe it is.
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Question. And then the ''Marsha'' and ''Mark'' and ''Alexis,'' you don't know if that was people you wanted to talk to about it or sent the memo to; is that correct?
Answer. That's my testimony.
Question. And do you recall then generally, aside from the notations, talking with any of these individuals about generally the topics addressed in the memo?
Answer. No, I do not recall that.
Question. Okay. Not at all?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. And then at the top where it says ''political file,'' is that Patty McHugh's handwriting?
Answer. It is.
Question. And what does that notation mean?
Answer. I think it suggests to file this in a political file.
Question. So in other words an actual file in your office that was called the political file?
Answer. I don't know how Ms. McHugh had my files organized. I depended on her for that.
Question. Were you aware of any lists that Mr. Middleton put together as a result, or, in general, are you aware of lists of supporters he put together?
Answer. I don't recall seeing any lists, Ms. Comstock, that Mr. Middleton put together.
Question. Were you aware of him compiling or getting them together?
Answer. No, I don't recall that he did.
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Question. Do you know of any of Mr. Middleton's suggestions being implemented at the White House?
Mr. BALLEN. As referred to in this memo?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
The WITNESS. Ms. Comstock, I don't remember any follow-up on this memorandum, and I don't remember the suggestions being implemented.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Okay. For instance, spots at the Saturday radio addresses, which I think are mentioned on page 52423. After No. 4 there, ''Saturday radio addresses should also be utilized to take care of our political and financial supporters.''
Were you ever aware of anything being implemented in that regard?
Answer. I don't remember any system being put in place to implement this suggestion.
Question. Okay. Then similarly, with Air Force One, do you have any knowledge of whether Air Force One had been—any action was taken on getting financial supporters onto Air Force One?
Answer. No, I don't. I don't recall that being followed up on either.
Question. The last page of the document, page 52424, Mr. Middleton asked you to authorize him to compile a comprehensive list of early and substantial contributors.
Would those be your circles and your marks on this document? Would that be accurate?
Answer. I believe they are.
Question. Do you know if you ever authorized him to do anything like that?
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Answer. I don't recall that I did, Ms. Comstock. I don't recall any follow-up on this memorandum.
Question. Okay. And so do your circles or notations there give you any indication of any action you took? Does that refresh your recollection as to any action that was taken?
Answer. No, they do not. They don't signify or suggest that.
Ms. COMSTOCK. This is Deposition Exhibit No. 11.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–11 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This document is EOP 42878. It says, ''Arkansas Finance Committee,'' and the notation on the side is, ''Mark Middleton's list.''
Have you ever seen this list?
Answer. I don't recall seeing this list, Ms. Comstock. It is possible that I have, but I don't recall seeing this list.
Question. Do you know what the Arkansas Finance Committee is?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. On the last page of the previous exhibit, Mark Middleton had asked that a directive be issued to key White House officials about taking care of friends.
Do you recall generally if there was ever any attempt to compile a list of friends that would be let into the White House, Arkansas friends, anything like that?
Answer. I don't know whether this list that you're showing me, Ms. Comstock, relates to this.
Question. And I'm not representing it does. I'm just sort of providing that to see if that refreshes your recollection on anything that Mr. Middleton might have done in terms of lists.
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Answer. The answer is no, it does not refresh my memory, or I don't know what this means or suggests.
Question. And were you aware of any kind of database that Mr. Middleton participated in?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. Just so the answer is clear, when you are referring to ''this,'' you are referring to Arkansas Finance Committee, you do not know what this list represents; is that correct?
The WITNESS. I mean, I cannot speculate.
Mr. BALLEN. No, please don't speculate.
Ms. COMSTOCK. We will make that list Deposition Exhibit No. 12, so that we are referring here to Deposition Exhibit No. 12, the Arkansas Finance Committee list.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–12 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And do you have any knowledge of any database that Mr. Middleton provided documents to or lists to, I'm sorry?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Are you familiar with the White House database in general, what's been referred to as WhoDB?
Answer. I am familiar with discussions about the need to have an orderly record of certain individuals—I'm not sure I would classify that WhoDB as you did—for certain invitations to Christmas parties and so forth. I am generally aware of a feeling that we needed a database, an orderly system to contact certain individuals on an orderly basis.
Question. And did you have an understanding of what that was to be used for?
Answer. It was to be used for certain invitations, Christmas cards, Christmas parties, things of that nature, and I was generally aware of the need to have that.
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Question. Were you aware of donor lists being incorporated into that system?
Answer. I'm not sure that I understood that donor lists would be incorporated into that general system, Ms. Comstock, at all.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of any DNC officials being allowed to utilize that system in any way?
Answer. No, I do not.
Mr. TAYLOR. Could we break for a second?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay, sure.
[Brief recess.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm showing the witness a May 5, 1994 memo to Ann Cahill from Martha Phipps.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Following up on previous—Mr. Middleton's memo on ideas on how the White House could be utilized, this memo sets out 19 different items, and the beginning of it says, ''In order to reach our very aggressive goal of 40 million this year, it would be very helpful if we could coordinate the following activities between the White House and the Democratic National Committee.''
Directing your attention to item No. 14, it says, ''One lunch with Mack McLarty per month, contact Mark Middleton.''
Do you know if anything like that was ever coordinated with the DNC between your office and the DNC?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Have you ever seen this memo before?
Answer. I don't recall that I have. It's possible I have, but I don't recall that I've seen this.
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Mr. BALLEN. This is not an memo directed to you, was it?
The WITNESS. No, it was not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. For the record, it is to Ms. Cahill from Martha Phipps, who is a DNC employee. I believe Ann Cahill was in, I think, Mr. Ickes' office or the social offices over there. I forget at this time.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. You have no knowledge then of any general efforts to have a DNC donor lunch that you would have with somebody once a week or a group of people once a month—I'm sorry, month?
Answer. No, I don't recall anything of that nature.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 13.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–13 was marked for identification.].
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is a memo to Mack McLarty from Skip Rutherford on September 8th, 1994.
Can you tell us what capacity Mr. Rutherford was serving in at this time in 1994?
Answer. Mr. Rutherford was and is in the private sector in Arkansas.
Question. And was he also a paid DNC employee at this time or contractor or consultant?
Answer. I believe he did have a contract with DNC as an advisor, I believe that's correct.
Question. Did you ever talk with anybody about setting that contract up at the DNC?
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Answer. I may have.
Question. Do you recall him being paid approximately $90,000 a year at the DNC?
Answer. I don't recall the terms. That may be correct.
Question. Do you recall discussing who you would have discussed it with at the DNC, setting up a contract for Mr. Rutherford?
Answer. I can't recall specifically discussing with anyone, Ms. Comstock, but it's possible that I did.
Question. And what was your understanding of what services he would be providing to the DNC?
Answer. I don't know that I had an understanding of the services he would be providing to the DNC.
Question. But was it your—did you have an interest in having Mr. Rutherford employed as a consultant by the DNC?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. And do you know others who were asking for that aside from you?
Answer. Mr. Rutherford is very highly regarded. I don't know whether there were others that asked for that. Part of his responsibilities were giving me informal advice, and I believe that came under the contract that you referred to.
Question. And was this memo some sort of that advice then?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Just directing your attention to the first paragraph, the sentence that says, ''The Arkansas Travelers should be reactivated at that time with particular emphasis on the early primary States.''
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Do you know what he is referring to as the ''Arkansas Travelers''?
Answer. I believe there was a group in 1992 of Arkansans that traveled to various primary States and campaigned for the President, and they were called the Arkansas Travelers.
Question. Do you know who that group included?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Do you know if they were involved in fund-raising at all?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, counsel. I'm going to object to this line of questioning. I've been waiting patiently to see the interaction between campaign finance and our investigation and Mr. Rutherford. I don't see it yet. Perhaps if you could provide it for the record.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Maybe we can wrap this up. The pending question was, do you know if this was involved in fund-raising at all, these individuals.
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, but before Mr. McLarty answers it, so you are not going to provide me for the record with an explanation of how that line of questioning relating to Skip Rutherford that you have been on for the past 5 minutes relates to the mandate to this committee?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I want to find out if this has anything to do with fund-raising.
Mr. TAYLOR. Does it?
The WITNESS. This memorandum or the Arkansas Travelers?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. If the Arkansas Travelers had anything to do with fund-raising?
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Answer. I don't know. I don't know.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make this Deposition Exhibit No. 14.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–14 was marked for identification.].
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Is Mr. Rutherford also involved with the Clinton Library?
Answer. Yes, he is.
Question. And is he the contact person for the archives, archiving of Presidential records, if you know?
Answer. I don't know what his exact responsibilities are.
Question. When Mr. Middleton left the White House in February of '95, did you keep in touch with him?
Answer. I saw Mr. Middleton from time to time.
Question. And can you tell us what contact that was?
Answer. I think they were contacts you would expect with a former staff member. I saw him from time to time.
Question. Did you see him come to the White House frequently?
Answer. I saw him from time to time in the White House.
Question. Did he tell you what he wanted to do when he left the White House?
Answer. Yes, he did.
Question. And what was that?
Answer. He told me he was going to work with Steve Green, a businessman from Florida.
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Question. And what type of business was that?
Answer. I'm not fully knowledgeable of Mr. Green's business endeavors. I know Mr. Green. He's quite successful, but I'm not knowledgeable of his business endeavors.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Middleton being interested in Asian business?
Answer. Yes, I was aware he was interested in trade matters and the Asian/Pacific region. That was about the extent of it.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton ever bring Steve Green in to meet with you?
Answer. He may have. I think I had met Mr. Green earlier in time.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton ever have any business clients that he brought in to meet with you?
Answer. I really did not know or do not know who Mr. Middleton's clients are.
Question. Are you aware of him doing any business with the Riadys or the Lippo Group?
Answer. I'm not aware whether or not he has a business relationship with the Riadys or not.
Question. You seem to sort of hesitate. Do you have any knowledge of his business with——
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. I'm going to object so the record is clear. I didn't see the witness hesitate. If you want to ask a question, go ahead.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I was just wondering if you have any other knowledge of Mr. Middleton's business with any connection with the Riadys or Lippo?
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Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Have you discussed that with anybody at the White House?
Answer. No, I don't believe that I have.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Middleton doing any work in raising—I'm sorry.
Answer. No.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Middleton doing any fund-raising for the Clinton Birthplace Foundation?
Answer. I may have been aware of Mr. Middleton was supportive of the Birthplace Foundation.
Question. Do you know how you learned of that?
Answer. I don't know whether he told me or someone else did. I simply may have been aware of it.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton ever introduce you to a Nina Wang?
Answer. No, I don't believe that he did.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of any particular people Mr. Middleton was fund-raising, soliciting funds from for the Birthplace Foundation?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Are you aware of any work that Mr. Middleton was doing with the Widjaja family, W-I-D-J-A-J-A?
Answer. May I see a copy of the spelling of the family you mentioned?
Question. Yes. This is a memo to Mr. McLarty from Janice Enright regarding the Widjaja.
Answer. Yes. I believe I knew Mr. Middleton was acquainted with this family. I don't think I knew or not whether they were clients of Mr. Middleton.
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Question. Do you have any knowledge of them at all generally, who they were?
Answer. I understood them to be successful Indonesian businesspeople with a number of successful business holdings.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Middleton attempting to get them in to see anybody at the White House?
Answer. Yes, I was.
Question. And who——
Answer. He asked me to attend a dinner, and I did a drop-by, and I believe I met at least some members of this family.
Question. And can you just describe that event?
Answer. It was a dinner that Mr. Middleton hosted, I believe, at the Hay-Adams. He asked me to drop by, which I did. I met them. It was a courtesy visit. I was generally supportive of the Pacific region and trading relationships there.
Question. How many people were at the dinner?
Answer. I really don't know.
Question. Was it your sense that it was only that family, or was it a large group?
Answer. I think there were other people there than just the family members. I stayed for about 10 or 15 minutes. I did not stay for dinner.
Question. Was it one table of people or two or under 100?
Answer. People were standing when I arrived. It seemed to be about 20, 25 people, as I remember, but I could be off on that.
Question. And what was your understanding of what he was doing, what his purpose was in having you meet with them?
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Answer. As I remember it, I believe the chairman of the company was receiving an international award the next day that was going to be presented in Washington, and he had asked me to stop by and meet this family. Mr. Middleton had worked with me on the APEC conference in Seattle, so it was consistent with those efforts, and I told him I would be glad to do so if my schedule permitted, which it did.
Question. Do you know if Don Fowler or anybody from the DNC was at the meeting—at the dinner?
Answer. I don't recall seeing Mr. Fowler there.
Question. Directing your attention to the second paragraph of this memo, it says, ''Harold is not familiar with work that is being done in this regard.'' Actually, the initial paragraph talks about the Clinton Library, but it says, ''I am told by Terry that you and Mark are working on this project at the direction of Mrs. Clinton.''
Do you know what—can you make sense of that for us, what the project was, and what was being worked on, and how that connected with the Widjaja family, if at all?
Answer. I don't know that it is connected with the Widjaja family. I believe this is in reference to the Clinton Library, and Mr. Middleton had done some research work for me on how other Presidential libraries were established during his tenure in the White House.
Question. Where it says—do you know who Terry is? It says, ''According to the Terry,'' in the first paragraph, ''Mark has been talking to them about the Clinton Library.''
Answer. I believe that refers to Terry McAuliffe, but I'm not sure.
Question. And do you know why Mark Middleton was talking to Terry McAuliffe about this?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. And do you know why these folks are being talked to about the Clinton Library?
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Answer. I don't know that they were talked to about the Clinton library.
Question. The memo says, ''According to Terry, Mark has been talking to them,'' but you don't know about that?
Mr. TAYLOR. I object. Are you asking him about what somebody else wrote?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Right.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. No, I'm just asking you what you know about what is in this memo that was to you, if you had any knowledge about that.
Mr. TAYLOR. I think he has answered your question.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know what you did in response to this memo?
Answer. I took this memo, the emphasis of it at least, was to provide Ms. Enright with information about this family and their business endeavors. I believe that's what she requested, and I believe I did that to the best of my knowledge.
Question. And what did you do?
Answer. I believe I wrote her a note back, or I dictated a note, saying it was my understanding that this family was involved in business endeavors in Indonesia and was well regarded, but that I could not vouch for them. That was my understanding. That's what had been told to me.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Let me get that memo.
The WITNESS. That's what——
Mr. BALLEN. Did you finish your answer, sir?
The WITNESS. That's what had been told to me.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I do have that memo, so I wanted to provide that to you.
Answer. This is consistent with my testimony.
Mr. TAYLOR. That is consistent with your testimony.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And this is another—a November 2nd, 1995 memo for Janice Enright from Patty McHugh, who is your assistant; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And the subject is, your memo to Mack, re: the three family members that were mentioned in the previous memo, which I'll go ahead and make Deposition Exhibit Number 15.
Why don't I clarify. On that document also, that is your handwriting on the top where it says—is that, cleared by Counsel's Office?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm afraid the record is going to be unclear. If we can indicate when he is talking about this, which memo.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'm going to make the first November 2nd, 1995 memo Deposition Exhibit Number 15, and that's the memo to Mack McLarty from Janice Enright. That's 052345, and that's the memo asking about any information on these people.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–15 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. The second memo, 20333, which we will make Deposition Exhibit Number 16; a memo for Janice Enright from Mr. McLarty's assistant, Patty McHugh.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–16 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. The pending question was if that was your handwriting at the top of Deposition Exhibit Number 15?
Answer. I believe the circled part is my handwriting.
Question. Does that say, ''Cleared by Counsel's Office''?
Answer. That's what it appears to say.
Question. And then that's your secretary's handwriting then to the right on the edge of the page there that says, Ron Brown's office—it says something; Connie scheduling; also met; and then in there is also, 1st Lady?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. 1st Lady; is that your handwriting, or is that somebody else's?
Answer. I can't tell. I can't tell.
Question. Were you aware of the Widjajas' meeting with the First Lady in this time frame also?
Answer. I don't believe I was aware of that. I may have been, but I don't believe I was aware of that.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of any attempts to get the First Lady to meet with this family?
Answer. I don't recall any requests being made to me, no.
Question. Do you recall Mark Middleton ever telling you anything to the effect that these people were important to the administration?
Answer. As I recall it, Mr. Middleton said they were successful businesspeople. I don't recall his saying about the importance of the administration, other than outreach to the Pacific/Asia for international commerce.
Question. Did you have any understanding whether they were U.S. citizens?
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Answer. I don't know whether they were U.S. citizens or not.
Question. Other than the dinner that you stopped by at, do you know of any other visits or activities that you have knowledge of with the Widjajas?
Answer. I believe the next day I by chance encountered Mr. Widjaja, whom I had not met, who I believe was receiving the award. He was with Mr. Middleton and I believe some of the other members of the family that I had met the night before, and I believe I recall Mr. Middleton saying, this gentleman is receiving this award tonight, or at some point in time, and I shook his hand and congratulated him. It was a perchance meeting. I did not know he was going to be there.
Question. You had mentioned the dinner, and I just wanted to show you 52308 through 309 indicates, depart en route to Mark Middleton's dinner; location, the Hay-Adams Hotel.
Mr. BALLEN. Could I have a copy of that as well?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
Mr. BALLEN. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall, was the dinner before—do you recall when in time the dinner was in relation to when you received memos about the Widjajas?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. In this time frame, was there any other Middleton dinner aside from this one, the one you previously described?
Answer. I don't recall that there was.
Question. So in the fall of '95 generally, you are only aware of one dinner that you—a Mark Middleton dinner at the Hay-Adams that you stopped by?
Answer. I believe that's the case, Ms. Comstock, but there may have been another occasion. I just simply don't remember sitting here today. That's the only one I recall.
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Question. Do you know if on other occasions you had—when Mr. Middleton had any Asian businessmen that he was associated with where you were at dinners?
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me. I didn't hear the end of the question. If there were any other dinners that he may have had with Mr. Middleton with other Asian businesspeople or people who had business in Asia, not necessarily that they were Asian?
The WITNESS. No, I understand.
Answer. I don't recall any other dinners, Ms. Comstock, that I saw business people either from Asia or doing business in Asia that attended. There possibly could have been one, but I don't remember it and I don't believe there was one.
Question. And then, again, returning to Deposition Number 15, do you recall they end up getting their pictures taken, if you know? Fifteen and 16, you indicated you thought was in your memo that Mack feels it would be all right for them to have a photo taken with them this evening. And that's deposition Exhibit 16.
Do you have any knowledge of that happening or not?
Answer. I don't know whether it did or not.
Question. Do you recall whether in the course of this you had any conversations with anyone at NSC or any foreign affairs people at the White House?
Answer. I don't recall that I had any conversations with the NSC.
Question. Deposition Exhibit Number 16 had indicated that the Commerce Department's counsel had cleared these folks.
Do you recall having any discussions with anyone at the Commerce Department about that or the information in here was relayed to you by Mark Middleton?
Answer. I don't recall any——
Ms. COMSTOCK. Sorry, I asked two questions.
Mr. TAYLOR. You sure did.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall if you discussed these folks with anybody at the Commerce Department, the Widjajas?
Answer. No, I don't believe I had any discussion with the Commerce Department about this matter.
Question. And then to the extent that the memo reflects that Mark Middleton has advised they've been cleared by the counsel's office and the Commerce Department, did Mr. Middleton then tell your office that and you accepted his account of that and it wasn't checked at the Commerce Department? Would that be a fair assessment?
Answer. No, I don't know.
Mr. TAYLOR. Your foundation is missing here because there's absolutely no evidence that Mr. McLarty talked to Mr. Middleton about Mr. Middleton's representations about the Commerce Department. It is——
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, why don't we go into that, then.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Did you ask your assistant to check on this, or did you personally check on it?
Mr. TAYLOR. If you know.
The WITNESS. I don't think I personally checked on it, and I don't remember asking my assistant to do it. It is possible I did, but I don't think I did.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall talking to Mark Middleton about these people at all?
Mr. TAYLOR. Other than what you've already testified to.
The WITNESS. No, I don't think I had any further discussions with Mr. Middleton other than what I've already related to you.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Then, in the memo where it says, ''Mack indicated that although he cannot attest to the absolute integrity of the above individuals, he can affirm that they are legitimate business people,'' do you know any basis of that being your view that you can affirm they were legitimate business people?
Answer. They had been presented to me that way.
Question. By Mr. Middleton?
Answer. By Mr. Middleton. And I believe I further felt that was affirmed with the award that they were receiving, I believe, the next day that seemed to be a highly prestigious award. I've forgotten who was Chairman, but a well-known leading American was the Chairman of the lunch, whenever they received the award.
Question. Your testimony is that you don't recall Mark Middleton telling you about the Commerce Department contact?
Answer. No, I have no recollection of any discussion with Mr. Middleton about the Commerce Department.
Question. The letter also indicates that Mark also said that they met with the First Lady. Do you recall any discussion with Mark Middleton about these people meeting with the First Lady?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Or do you recall Patty McHugh telling you anything about these people had met with the First Lady?
Answer. I don't recall Patty relating that to me.
Question. So you have no knowledge about anything about the First Lady meeting with these people; is that correct?
Answer. I have no knowledge. It's possible Ms. McHugh said something to me and I just, sitting here today, don't remember her saying that.
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Mr. BALLEN. You have no recollection.
The WITNESS. That's right.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make this calendar entry for October 31st the Mark Middleton dinner, make that Deposition Exhibit Number 17.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–17 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. This is a November 3rd, '95 , calendar entry on this.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Again, is that your handwriting on there?
Answer. Yes, it is.
Question. And can you read what that says?
Answer. It says Mark Middleton, Charlie Trie, Indo Group.
Question. And do you recall what that entry means?
Answer. I recall the Mark Middleton entry at 3:00 denotes a meeting that I was going to have with Mark Middleton on November 3rd.
Question. Do you recall meeting with Charlie Trie?
Answer. Mr. Trie was not present at this meeting. I believe I've only met Mr. Trie on one occasion.
Question. And when was that?
Answer. I can't place it in time. I believe it was either in 1993 or 1994.
Question. And what was the context of the meeting?
Answer. I don't recall. I have a vague recollection it is some type of reception, shaking his hand.
Question. And what makes you recall that?
Answer. I just simply remember shaking his hand and his being introduced as Charlie Trie.
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Question. Did you know he was a donor or trustee or anything like that?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Was this with a large group of people?
Answer. I have a vague recollection of a reception type setting where I was introduced to him and shook his hand, and that's the only time I believe I've ever spoken with Mr. Trie.
Question. So you did not know him from Arkansas?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you know what the Indo Group here indicates?
Answer. I'm not certain what it indicates. It is on or around the time with the Widjajas. It may refer to them, but I don't know for certain.
Question. So you do not recall Charlie Trie, though, being with the Widjajas at all?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. And do you recall, aside from this dinner, did you meet with the Widjajas and see them at the White House at all?
Answer. I think I've already testified that I saw——
Question. Mr. Widjaja.
Answer. Mr. Widjaja the next day unexpectedly. Other than that, that's the only two times I ever met with any of the Widjaja family.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 18.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–18 was marked for identification.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. This is another schedule. It is EOP 52310, which is also for November 3rd, and it indicates a 3:00 meeting with Mark Middleton, location 1201 Connecticut Avenue.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you recall a meeting with Mark Middleton's office at 1201 Connecticut? That's not his office, is it? Do you recall what this meeting is?
Answer. I recall meeting Mr. Middleton at 3:00 on November 3rd. And this notation on my formal calendar is the same as the notation on my Daytimer. It is the same meeting.
Question. And this is a meeting that Charlie Trie was not at?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. And have you told us everything about this meeting that you recall, this November 3rd meeting with Mark Middleton, what that was about?
Answer. I don't think you've asked me about it.
Question. I'm sorry, we're getting confused. Why don't you tell us about this meeting?
Answer. The meeting, as I remember, it was what I would describe as a social and personal meeting. I had really not had an opportunity to see Mark for any length of time since he left the White House. And this seemed to be a convenient time and place for us to meet and have an opportunity for a visit, which we did.
Question. And what is 1201 Connecticut Avenue?
Answer. That's actually the offices of Zuckerman and Spaeder.
Question. And why were you meeting there?
Answer. I was already there in preparation for another meeting of this type; and, so, when I completed that preparation, I thought a social and personal visit might be an enjoyable change of pace, and it seemed to be a convenient time and place to meet outside the White House and just have a chance to catch up on what Mark was doing and for him to catch up on what I was doing. It was the first time I had seen him since he left for any length of time.
Question. So you were not talking to Mr. Middleton on any legal matters?
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Answer. No, I was not. And no White House business, either.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 19.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–19 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Then I guess the Indo Group referenced there, when you put the two together and you have Mark Middleton and you met at Zuckerman and Spaeder and then the Indo Group, you don't know what the connection is there, why that was on the calendar at that time?
Answer. I don't think there is a connection.
Question. Do you know why that was there on your calendar, what that refers to?
Answer. Sitting here today, no, I do not know why I made that notation.
Question. You didn't talk to Mr. Middleton about Charlie Trie or anything Indo Group-type related?
Answer. I can't say, sitting here today, that those weren't notations for me to ask Mark about the Indo Group or make a comment, which I believe refers to Widjajas. And I just simply don't know what the notation about Mr. Trie means.
Question. I don't know where the Bates stamp number is on this. It is an April 13th, 1993, memo for Mr. McLarty from Tony Lake. The subject is request for Presidential photo opportunity with PRC Governor and delegation.
I believe you previously had testified something to the effect of, and maybe I'm mistaken, PRC delegation. But I'll give you a chance to review that. This is different from the Governor of Jakarta thing, which is what you had previously testified. I'm sorry.
Answer. No, that's all right.
Question. Do you recall receiving this memo?
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Answer. Sitting here today, I do not recall receiving this memo.
Question. Do you recall the general subject matter coming up in 1993?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you recall the PRC Governor and delegation visiting the White House?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. So you have no knowledge that you can inform us about this meeting or event or photo opportunity?
Answer. I just simply don't remember this memoranda, and I don't remember a visit by the PRC and I having any involvement in it. I just simply don't have any recollection of it sitting here today.
Question. Do you know who Kris Cicio is, who is mentioned in the last paragraph?
Answer. I believe Ms. Cicio was—I believe she is—was and is a secretary in the National Security Counsel's office.
Question. And do you know who Ken Wiedemann is?
Answer. I believe he was a staff person at the NSC.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of them meeting with this delegation?
Answer. No, I do not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Let me mark that Deposition Exhibit Number 20.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–20 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I think your testimony, this is fairly clear, but this does mention in the memo the event was being promoted by Charlie Trie.
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Do you recall, in general, any events where Charlie Trie was promoting or trying to get meetings with any Chinese delegations in general?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Okay.
The November 3rd, 1995, meeting that you had with Mr. Middleton, was that just between you and Mr. Middleton, there was nobody else there?
Answer. Yes, it was just the two of us.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Middleton working with Charlie Trie?
Answer. I was aware they were acquainted. I don't have any knowledge of his working with Mr. Trie.
Question. How did you learn they were acquainted?
Answer. Mr. Middleton mentioned Mr. Trie to me on occasions.
Question. Can you tell us on what occasions what he said.
Answer. I don't recall a specific occasion. I was aware they knew each other.
Question. Did he mention traveling with him or going to any parties at the Watergate Hotel that he had?
Answer. No, nothing of that type.
I do have a vague recollection of one occasion when Mr. Middleton mentioned Mr. Trie as a possible prospective fund-raiser, and I acknowledged that comment. And that's about all I remember about any comments Mr. Middleton made about Mr. Trie to me.
Question. Do you know why he was telling you about him being a fund-raiser?
Answer. I believe it was in the context of a conversation we were having of that type, and I think I probably suggested Mr. Trie—I mean Mr. Middleton—I think I just said I would take that under advisement. I think it was in the context of a discussion.
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Question. Do you recall if this was when Mr. Middleton was working at the White House?
Answer. Oh, I think it was, yes.
Question. And then after Mr. Middleton left the White House, do you recall him talking about dealings with Charlie Trie?
Answer. To the best of my memory and knowledge, I don't recall Mr. Middleton ever raising Charlie Trie with me after he left the White House.
Question. Were you aware of Charlie Trie making any large contributions to the DNC for the health care media fund?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. In 1994?
Answer. No, I was not.
Question. Do you recall any discussions with Mark Middleton about Charlie Trie being a potential donor for health care matters at all?
Answer. No. I recall what I just testified, that on one occasion Mr. Middleton mentioned that Mr. Trie might be a potential contributor. And I don't recall anything else about the conversation or any follow-up about that.
Question. Did he say why he thought Mr. Trie would be a potential donor?
Answer. He did not, to the best of my recollection; and I don't believe that he did.
Question. And when he suggested that he would be a potential donor, a large donor, not a $25 donor?
Answer. I don't think I talked about specific dollar figures.
Question. Do you recall an impression of this—I mean, presumably, if you're going to go to somebody, you're going to get more than a $50 contribution. Was that your impression that he gave you?
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Answer. My impression was a substantial giver.
Mr. TAYLOR. Hold on a second.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
The WITNESS. I think I had used ''fund-raiser'' as opposed to ''giver'' and I think I used ''giver'' in the second question. I think it was someone who could raise funds.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Your understanding is that Charlie Trie would be somebody who would go out and seek funds from others, as opposed to donor?
Answer. Sitting here today, it is hard to remember the specific conversation. But in response to your question, I do have a recollection Mr. Middleton mentioned Mr. Trie as someone, as I remember it, who could possibly raise—be a fund-raiser, an effective fund-raiser.
Question. Do you recall him also suggesting that he could be a substantial donor?
Answer. I don't recall that.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton give you any understanding of what source of funds Mr. Trie might tap into for fund-raising?
Answer. No, he did not.
Question. Or for donating himself?
Answer. No, he did not.
Question. Do you have an understanding of if Mr. Trie was a man of means or not?
Answer. I only remember one comment that I've testified to.
Question. Do you recall, did Mr. Middleton ever tell you about loaning Charlie Trie money himself?
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Answer. No, he did not.
Question. What was Mr. Middleton's involvement in fund-raising while he was at the White House during the time frame when he was at the White House?
Answer. I'm not sure I understand your question.
Question. Well, you said you recall this conversation being while he was working with you at the White House. What was your understanding of what Mr. Middleton was doing in relation to fund-raising in that time frame, in the '93 through February '95 time frame?
Answer. I think the correct way to respond and an accurate way to respond to your question is, from time to time, I think I asked Mr. Middleton to interface with the DNC and pass along any suggestions to them that he had and work with the political office in that regard, but that was the extent of it.
Question. I'm showing the witness a December 15, 1995, memo to Mack McLarty from Mark Middleton regarding Asian Aerospace. Do you recall receiving this memo from Mr. Middleton?
Answer. Sitting here today, I don't recall receiving it.
Question. Did Mr. Middleton, after he left the White House, send you memos frequently making any recommendations or asking you for—or making any recommendations?
Answer. From time to time, he did.
Question. Did he ask you to meet with people or host events, things like that?
Answer. From time to time, he requested us to meet with certain people.
Question. And do you recall anything relating to the events here on the Asian Aerospace event in Singapore, Mr. Middleton asking you about anything related to the words in this memo?
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Answer. I just don't recall this memoranda.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of Mark Middleton being involved in Asian Aerospace issues?
Answer. No, I do not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I'll make that Deposition Exhibit Number 21.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–21 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is a May 20th, 1996, note to Mark Middleton. It is EOP 20344. Is that your handwriting at the top?
Answer. It is.
Question. And is this a personal matter, or is this something relating to any client, if you could tell us just from your review of it, if you know?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, I didn't hear.
Ms. COMSTOCK. It says ''personal'' on the envelope here. I was wondering if this relates to any business matters or if this is an entirely personal communication with him.
The WITNESS. It does not relate to any business matters. It is a personal communication with Mr. Middleton about Mr. Hogan.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Mr. Hogan?
Answer. Right.
Question. And that is who?
Answer. Mr. Hogan is a business person in Arkansas whom I know, have known over the years as a friend. And I had seen him again by chance, I believe, in the White House, and he had asked me about possibly some opportunities for him to work in Washington. He had been president of the Associated Contractors Association in prior years. And I told him he might want to visit with someone like Mark Middleton to discuss his plans further. And I simply wanted to be courteous to Mr. Hogan and follow up, and that's what this note is about to Mr. Middleton.
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Question. What is your understanding about what Mr. Middleton would be meeting with him on?
Answer. Simply to discuss with Mr. Hogan developing thoughts he had about whatever endeavors and plans he had for the future.
Question. Was this related to any Asian business?
Answer. None whatsoever, to the best of my knowledge.
Question. Were you aware of Mr. Hogan being involved in any fund-raising with Mr. Middleton?
Answer. No, I am not.
Mr. TAYLOR. Do you want to stop for a few minutes?
[Brief recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I know we're pressed on time here, so I'm going to try to go through some remaining documents that we wanted to ask you about just so we can speed things up as much as we can here.
This is a daily phone log from Mark Middleton of April 14, 1994, EOP 44984, and it shows a phone call to Mr. Middleton from Joe Giroir, and then the message reads ''4/21-22 in D.C., bringing Lippo, Entergy, North China Power Corp. Please call per Patty. He wants to meet with Mack.''
Do you recall any meetings that you had at or around April, spring, 1994 with Joe Giroir regarding Lippo or Entergy?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you know if Mr. Middleton ever had any meetings with Mr. Giroir regarding Lippo, Entergy, or this North China Power Corporation?
Answer. I know that—I now know that, and I may have known that at that time.
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Question. That Mr. Middleton met with him about these matters?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. And do you generally recall what your knowledge is about this Lippo, Entergy project?
Answer. I think I knew that Mr. Giroir had requested a meeting with me, that I was not going to be able to see him, and I think I asked my office for Mr. Middleton to see him.
Ms. Comstock, I am not at all sure that I knew what the subject matter of that meeting was, since I was not going to meet with him.
Question. Do you know if anyone ever discussed the possibility of Mr. Hubbell doing any work on this power plant?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I make that Deposition Exhibit Number 22.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–22 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you have any general knowledge about the North China Power Plant project, a joint Lippo, Entergy project that I believe was signed in an August '94 trade mission that Secretary Brown did?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. Did you ever have any involvement or knowledge about that?
Answer. I had no involvement.
Question. Prior to that, I mean, were you aware that that was something Secretary Brown was going to do on that trade mission in the August September '94 time frame?
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Answer. I believe I was aware Entergy had an interest in developing energy projects in the Asia Pacific region. I believe that this has been in the public press. I believe I had knowledge of that.
Question. But you were not involved in any meetings regarding any of that?
Answer. No. I spoke to the Trade Mission Group before they left for China, as I remember it. And there were 20 or so executives, and I spoke to them before they left.
Question. What did you speak with them about?
Answer. I, just from the White House, wished them well on the trip.
Question. Was this a meeting where they all were present?
Answer. It was at the Commerce Department.
Question. And you went over there and sort of wished them well on their trip?
Answer. Talked about the importance of international trade.
Question. Were you aware one of the purposes of this trip was to sign memorandums of understanding or to kind of get trade deals done?
Answer. I was aware that the purpose of the trip was to advocate the President's agenda in China, including business development, but also human rights, which I think Secretary Brown did very effectively.
Question. Okay. I show you EOP 029870.
Mr. TAYLOR. Did you mark that?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes, I believe we made the previous Document Deposition Exhibit Number 22.
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, please. Can I have a copy of that?
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. This is a letter to you from a Joe O'Brien. Can you tell us who Mr. O'Brien is?
Answer. Mr. O'Brien was a bank officer in Little Rock whom I met, and I believe he was an officer with the TCBY, the yogurt company, at a later point in time. And I believe he's an international business consultant.
Question. Could you just tell us this, describe the context of this letter, if you could.
Answer. I know Mr. O'Brien. He wrote me this letter that he had seen Dr. Ward, who is president of the University of Arkansas Medical Center, and had had dinner with Dr. Ward and the Lippo Group and our son—let's see, wait a minute, was invited by David Yeh to join them. And he is giving me a report that our son seems to being do well in his semester abroad at the Chinese University at Hong Kong.
Question. Do you know David Yeh?
Answer. I do not.
Question. Do you know how your son came to be invited by Mr. Yeh of The Lippo Group to join this dinner?
Answer. No. I didn't know they had this dinner until I saw this memoranda.
Question. Have you ever talked to your son about how he came to be invited for a Lippo Group dinner with these people?
Answer. I don't believe I've ever discussed this dinner with Mark.
Question. Do you know why Mr. O'Brien was reporting on these meetings with The Lippo Group people to you?
Answer. I think it is really a report on our son, Mark, and he has seen him. And as an acquaintance that I know and have known for some years, he's writing me a letter saying that our son appears to be doing quite fine, which I was pleased to hear.
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Question. And Harry Ward?
Answer. Harry is president of the University of Arkansas Medical School. He's president of the University of Arkansas Medical School, or Medical System. I'm not sure the exact responsibility.
Question. Did you ever have any knowledge of Mr. Hubbell asking the Riadys to pay for tuition of any of his children?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of the Riadys paying tuition or expenses for anybody's members?
Answer. No.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 23.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–23 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I believe you previously discussed this meeting with the Governor of Jakarta, right?
Answer. Uh-huh.
Question. I just wanted to——
Mr. BALLEN. Excuse me, Counsel.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm sorry April 23rd, 1993, letter to James Riady from you. Was this the time frame of the meeting that you previously had testified to?
Answer. I believe that it is.
Question. And do you recall how the meeting came about that Mr. Riady was included in that?
Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last part of your question.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. If you could just tell us, generally, how the meeting came about, any involvement you may have had in bringing about the meeting.
Answer. I believe there was simply a scheduling request to my office for the Governor of Jakarta and his sister city relationship with Little Rock or State relationship with Arkansas to see me during his visit to the United States, which I agreed to do.
Question. Were you aware of John Huang ever making a request for that visit?
Answer. I don't know who made the request to my office, Ms. Comstock.
Question. Do you recall ever discussing with the President whether or not to go ahead with this meeting, any discussions you had with him?
Answer. To the best of my memory, I don't believe I discussed this meeting with the President.
Question. Do you recall if, I guess, Mr. Riady did meet with the President; is that correct, on this occasion?
Answer. This letter is about a meeting with me, Ms. Comstock.
Question. Right. On his visit to the White House where this meeting that you had with Mr. Riady was at the White House; is that correct?
Answer. With the Governor of Jakarta and Mr. Riady accompanying him, as I recall. It was in the White House.
Question. And you had a meeting. Who else was in that meeting that you had?
Answer. I can't recall who else was in the meeting.
Mr. BALLEN. Was this a substantive meeting to discuss Indonesian policy or foreign policy?
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The WITNESS. No, it was not.
Mr. BALLEN. It was more like a meeting to greet?
The WITNESS. It was a courtesy, ceremonial visit meeting to greet. That's how I think I earlier described it in my testimony.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if on this visit they also had their picture taken with the press?
Answer. I do not.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Make that Deposition Exhibit Number 24.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–24 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This is a November 15th, 1993, document which I think you previously testified to that you were at the Seattle APEC meeting in November of '93. And this document indicates a breakfast and it says ''Matt McLarty'' and I'm assuming that would be you with the misspelling of your name?
Answer. I believe that it is.
Question. Do you recall a breakfast that you did at the Seattle APEC conference, or do you recall if you were involved in such an event?
Answer. I recall a breakfast. I don't know whether this is the memoranda referring to that breakfast or not. I do recall a breakfast meeting there.
Question. And then directing your attention to where it says, I'll refer to it as Mack McLarty breakfast instead of Matt.
Answer. Thank you.
Question. But it indicates that John Huang was present there. Do you recall John Huang being there?
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Answer. The breakfast that I recall in Seattle was a much larger breakfast than this. I recall seeing Mr. Huang in Seattle. I don't recall seeing him at this particular breakfast, although I may have.
Question. How long have you known John Huang?
Answer. I believe I met John Huang in 1992.
Question. Do you recall how you met him?
Answer. I believe I met him on the eve of the economic conference in Little Rock after Governor Clinton was elected.
Question. Do you know what he was doing there?
Answer. I believe Mr. Riady was invited as a participant in that meeting and Mr. Huang accompanied him. That was my impression.
Question. What was your understanding of what Mr. Huang did?
Answer. My impression was he was associated with Mr. Riady. I don't believe I knew anything more about his activities than that.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Huang being a fund-raiser in 1992?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of him being the substantial donor in 1992?
Answer. No, I do not and did not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge about any conduit payments that Mr. Huang made in 1992?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge at any time of any conduit political contributions that Mr. Huang was involved in at any time from '92 to the present?
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Answer. No.
Question. This document also indicates that Nora and Gene Lum were at a breakfast. Again, does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you had ever met Nora or Gene Lum?
Answer. No, it does not.
Question. So you don't ever recall meeting them?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. And then do you recall Mr. Riady being at this conference in the APEC Seattle conference?
Answer. I recall seeing Mr. Riady at Seattle. I don't recall seeing him at the breakfast, although I may have.
Question. And do you know Maeley Tom?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Or Maria Haley?
Answer. I do know Maria Haley.
Question. Do you recall her being at the conference?
Answer. Yes, I have a recollection of her being at the APEC conference in Seattle.
Question. Do you know how people were invited to the conference, what the process was?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Were you involved in that process at all or offer any suggestions of names at any time in the course of planning for the conference?
Answer. I perhaps could have offered some names for consideration. I was not directly involved in the planning of the private sector part of the APEC conference. I was, in an overall sense, involved in the APEC planning with the meeting of the other Governors.
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Question. Do you have any knowledge of who would have been involved in inviting these individuals listed here?
Answer. Normally the public liaison section in the White House would have a role in that, and generally the Commerce Department would.
Question. Okay. I'll mark DNC 17299——
Answer. There may have been other suggestions from other agencies, as well.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. Thank you.—DNC 1729928 through 29 Deposition Exhibit Number 25.
[McLarty Deposition Exhibit No. TM–25 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. I'm sorry, the previous document also mentioned March Fong Eu being president of the event. Do you know March Fong Eu?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of March Fong Eu being a fund-raiser for DNC or Clinton/Gore at any time?
Answer. No.
Question. This is an undated memo, EOP 030679, to Mark McLarty and John Podesta from Bruce Lindsey. The handwriting on the top of that again, that would be Patty McHugh's; is that correct?
Answer. Yes, I believe that's right.
Question. And would that indicate—the ''to'' and ''from'' up there, would that indicate you would have forwarded this memo to Leon Panetta?
Answer. It does.
Question. And could you just generally, in reviewing this document, if you recall the context of this memo from Mr. Lindsey?
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Answer. As I remember, there was a group of Arkansans who had been invited and/or had expressed an interest in attending the APEC conference in Indonesia, and I believe this memo relates to that.
Question. And that would be the conference in November of '94?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. The beginning of it says that John Tisdale and Doug Buford were people Mr. Lindsey had spoke with. Do you know what John Tisdale's and Doug Buford's involvement in this was?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Could you tell us who John Tisdale is?
Answer. John is a lawyer in Little Rock.
Question. Has he been the President's lawyer on some occasions on any matters?
Answer. He may have done some work for the President. I don't think he is the President's lawyer.
Question. You would have no knowledge of him doing any legal work for the Lums?
Answer. No.
Question. And Doug Buford, could you tell us who he is?
Answer. He's also a lawyer in Little Rock.
Question. Do you know some of the individuals who are listed here as the Arkansas delegation?
Answer. I do.
Question. And who are Alan and Jean Sugg?
Answer. Dr. Sugg is president of the University of Arkansas system, and Jean is his wife.
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Question. And Wayne and Francis Cranford?
Answer. Mr. Cranford is the chairman of Cranford, Johnson Robertson Advertising Agency in Little Rock.
Question. And Mark and Libby Grobmyer?
Answer. Mr. Grobmyer is an attorney in Little Rock.
Question. Are you aware of some matters relating to a plutonium project that Mr. Grobmyer was meeting with people at the White House on at any time?
Answer. It is possible that came to my attention. I don't recall it sitting here today.
Question. Do you ever recall any complaints from the NSC about Mr. Grobmyer trying to push something identified generally as the plutonium project?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. I'll return to that later. I need to go through this list.
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