Segment 2 Of 2 Previous Hearing Segment(1)
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FEDERAL SHUTTLE BUS SERVICE IN THE WASHINGTON, D.C. AREA
Wednesday, September 13, 2000
House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Oversight, Investigations and Emergency Management, Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 3:00 p.m., in Room 2167 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tillie K. Fowler [chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Mrs. FOWLER. If the subcommittee could come to order.
One hundred and twenty years ago the executive branch of government here in Washington largely consisted of three buildings located right next to each other: The White House, the State War and Navy Building, now the Old Executive Office Building, and the Treasury Building. Today, the Federal Government maintains over 2000 buildings and installations and employs almost 350,000 people in the entire metropolitan area. So it is no surprise, therefore, that the Federal Government operates bus or shuttle services among many of these facilities.
Five years ago a number of people at the Federal Government, to their credit, noticed that Federal shuttles seem to be poorly coordinated. Agencies seem to be running shuttle services along similar routes, and so an Interagency Working Group was formed which gathered data and issued a report recommending that there be more coordination and consolidation of shuttle services. Logical conclusion, but I am sorry to say that in the 5 years since this report was issued we seem to have moved in the opposite direction.
This summer our subcommittee surveyed as many agencies as possible to assess the cost and extent of shuttle service in the area. At the outset I want to emphasize that the results that we are making public today will change as we receive more complete information from the agencies. So what you are going to be seeing only covers part of the shuttle service. There is more out there.
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In the last 5 years the number of Federal shuttles in Washington has increased from 109 vehicles to 139 vehicles. Some of these are shown on the posters that are over here to my right and your left. Meanwhile, the total cost of shuttle service has almost tripled from $6.5 million a year to over $16 million a year.
Now, based on the data that was gathered to date by the subcommittee, Federal shuttles in the Washington area travel over 3-1/2 million miles a year, enough to circle the Earth over 130 times, and much of this mileage is along the same roads. Sixty-six Federal shuttle routes examined by the subcommittee run all or in part in a two and a half square mile area near or around the National Mall. I think those that can see in the back, you can see where it is first starting, this in the red that is sort of the National Mall area, is in the middle there, and that is sort of where it starts.
Of the 34 Federal departments and agencies the subcommittee examined, only six allowed other Federal employees to ride their shuttles, and even more disturbing than the agencies' lack of coordination is their disinclination to use our city's excellent subway system. Many of these Federal shuttles stop at or within a block of a Metrorail station. For example, the Environmental Protection Agency operates a shuttle between its Waterside Mall building near the waterfront and the Ronald Reagan Building downtown. Now, there are subway stops located directly outside both of these buildings. Nonetheless, the EPA runs a 32-passenger bus between these Metro stops three times an hour from 8:00 a.m. Until 5:45 p.m.
And an interesting note, since EPA is concerned about our air quality, is that the impact of all these shuttle buses on the area's air quality is significant. Annually the Federal shuttles emit approximately 110 tons of air pollutants into the air we are breathing here in Washington, D.C. Now, our area is often in violation of clean air standards, and vehicle emissions are the primary cause in the Washington, D.C. Area.
So I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today as we examine the extent of the Federal shuttle service in the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Area and identify methods by which they can be made more efficient.
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I would now like to recognize our ranking member, Mr. Traficant, for his opening statement.
Mr. TRAFICANT. I want to thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for this hearing. Looking at all of these particular maps looks like a study in Rorschach psychology or maybe psychiatry. This is ridiculous and disgusting. The overlap and the duplication of costs and the congestion certainly needs to be addressed, and I want to compliment this panel because evidently they have taken the first step to trying to resolve this. So I am glad you are here and look forward to your testimony.
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Mr. Traficant. I believe there are no further statements. I would now like to call our first and our only panel. We have from the General Services Administration Mr. Martin Wagner, the Associate Administrator for Governmentwide Policy, and from the National Capital Planning Commission Mr. William Dowd, Director, Office of Plans Review, and I want to say at the outset how appreciative I am of the support and cooperation you have given to the subcommittee in helping us put this information together. It has been a tremendous help to us.
As you know, it is the standard practice of this subcommittee to swear in all witnesses. So if you could just stand and raise your right hand, please.
[witnesses sworn.]
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you. If you could please be seated, and, Mr. Wagner, we will start with you, if you could give your testimony.
TESTIMONY OF G. MARTIN WAGNER, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF GOVERNMENTWIDE POLICY, U.S. GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION, ACCOMPANIED BY BILL RIVERS, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL VEHICLE POLICY, GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION; AND WILLIAM DOWD, P.E., DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF PLANS REVIEW, NATIONAL CAPITAL PLANNING COMMISSION
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Mr. WAGNER. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman and Ranking Member Traficant. I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this important issue.
As Associate Administrator for Governmentwide Policy, my focus is on the government's overall management efficiencies as distinct from the internal operational aspects of GSA, and I note that in many of the areas we're working with other agencies on there is a move to what I will call horizontal government, a lot more sharing through things like the Internet, but frankly the issue you called to our attention with this hearing is another example of where there's a lot of savings potential from sharing.
We too did a survey. Its results are slightly different from your own, but it did show that there were a substantial number of buses and routes and a substantial amount several million dollars also being spent. I think as we survey and look deeply we'll start to find there are other examples of where there are some opportunities.
A reason for doing the survey was one you alluded to earlier, because of interesting of use of clean fuels and improving the air quality in the District, was why we were doing that, because alternative fuel vehicles in fact offer a lot of potential. One of the things we found as we looked into this question is that there was really no systematic—there was really no one in charge. There was no systematic look at how to do this. There were various ad hoc approaches, one of which you alluded to earlier, but in fact there looked like there was some need for, maybe I should call it, more oversight.
In doing that, I'm pleased to tell you that our National Capital Region has also been working with agencies or looking at ways to come up with sharing opportunities and we hope they will move in that direction. I think there are frankly some economies of scale to be achieved. I would also suggest that some analysis by transportation economists might be helpful in this area.
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The last point I'd make—I see my time is getting short—is—.
Mrs. FOWLER. Since you're the only two witnesses, go ahead.
Mr. WAGNER. Then we do encounter what is at least a regulatory impediment. There appears to be at least a question and perhaps an absolute prohibition against using shuttle buses to take people from Metro stations to and from work, and I believe this is an impediment to the usage of shuttle buses. I am not sure a public policy purpose is served by that, and I hesitate to say that a legislative fix is required, but we may in fact be shortly recommending to the Congress that they consider such a step, and again there may be some flexibility within current law.
Finally, to observe that a GSA is—our mission is really internally focused towards the government as a whole, and whereas we recognize the importance of all the other areas and we're certainly willing to work with other bodies like the Department of Transportation, the District of Columbia, the National Park Service, we do also recognize that our focus is on making government employees more effective, and it would be—we would be more one aspect of a larger solution if such a larger solution became—came to be.
Thank you very much.
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Mr. Wagner.
Mr. Dowd.
Mr. DOWD. Yes. Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Ranking Member Traficant. My name is Bill Dowd, and I am the Director of the Office of Plans Review at the National Capital Planning Commission and have a professional background in transportation planning. Today I am accompanied by Ken Walton of our office and I am pleased to take this opportunity to speak about Federal shuttle services in Washington.
The National Capital Planning Commission is the Federal Government's planning agency in the District of Columbia and surrounding counties in Maryland and Virginia. The Commission provides overall planning guidance for Federal land and buildings in the region. It also reviews the location and design of Federal construction projects, oversees long-range planning for future development and monitors capital investment by Federal agencies. The 1952 planning Act requires the Commission to coordinate and review transportation initiatives that may affect the interests of the Federal establishment. The Federal Government has a critical interest in ensuring that the region has an effective transportation system that meets the need of Federal workers and visitors in the Nation's capital.
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As part of its review of Federal development in the region, the Commission requires Federal agencies to submit transportation management plans with their master plans. The Commission evaluates these agency transportation plans in the context of local area congestion, transit availability, and parking policies. In its role in regional mass transit planning, the Commission evaluates the proposed extensions to the Metro system. It also reviews major State and local transportation initiatives such as the Woodrow Wilson Bridge and the Inter-County Connector.
The Commission has long had a strong interest in a supplementary surface transportation system that would link Metro with major destinations in Washington's Monumental Core. Such a circulator system is a key feature in the long-range vision plan, ''Extending the Legacy, Planning America's Capital for the 21st Century,'' which we have copies here that we can share with you, which the Commission released in 1997. The Legacy Plan preserves the historic character and open space of the National Mall while accommodating new growth and development. The plan expands the reach of public transit and eliminates obsolete freeways, bridges and railroad tracks that fragment the city. In the Legacy vision, the circulator would provide an incentive to travelers to leave their cars outside of the city.
In an effort to advance this vision, NCPC staff has recently begun coordination with representatives from other Federal agencies, the D.C. Government and private business owners to consider how to implement the beginnings of such a system. Clearly, one of the first steps in this coordination is to examine existing Federal shuttle routes. Next steps may include coordinating existing routes and exploring the possibility of replacing some of these existing shuttle services with the proposed circulator. Our expectation is that at least in the beginning of the phase of the project circulator routes will be quite limited and will not replace all of the existing shuttle routes.
We do understand the GSA and staff members from this committee have independently begun to identify the extent of Federal shuttle services available in downtown Washington. The graphical information that we are presenting to you today represents the data that was collected by staff members of this committee. Specific information was gathered on 34 Federal entities that are currently operating 94 shuttle routes. On behalf of the committee staff, we have mapped the 66 shuttle routes that operate in the downtown area. For display purposes, these routes have been consolidated by the Federal entity that operates them. By viewing these maps in succession, areas of potential overlap can be identified. The shuttle routes mapped are operated by the Department of Justice, the Environmental Protection Agency—.
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Mrs. FOWLER. Just again, Mr. Dowd, so people in the room, if others will look back, I know you know what is coming up, as he names each agency, you will see the one in red is the Department of Justice, he just said EPA and that one came up in a sort of chartreuse. So each time he names an agency it will come on there and you'll begin to see the overlap. Thank you.
Mr. DOWD. Thank you. The Department of Transportation, the State Department, the Department of Agriculture, the Smithsonian Institution, the Commerce Department, the Treasury Department, the Energy Department, the Department of Education, the Department of Interior, the Department of Defense, the General Services Administration, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Architect of the Capitol, and the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Mrs. FOWLER. I think, as you can all see, there is a lot of overlap in the colors.
Mr. DOWD. While the Commission is responsible for the oversight of Federal transportation initiatives, it does not conduct detailed planning for such projects and in this case does not have specific authority concerning shuttle services provided by individual Federal agencies.
We look forward to continuing our coordinating role with Federal agencies, the District government and private business owners to implement a circulator service. If requested, the Commission and its staff could undertake the necessary detailed planning work to support specific recommendation s for the proposed circulator. Such an undertaking, however, would require dedicated funding and resources.
We believe that coordination between all affected Federal agencies, service providers and the local government is necessary to develop a flexible, convenient and cost effective transportation system to carry Federal workers, residents and tourists around Washington's Monumental Core. The cooperating agencies that are currently working together to develop a downtown circulator transportation service can bring the necessary leadership to this task. Armed with the appropriate resources and support, the National Capital Planning Commission would welcome the opportunity to assist in this effort to make Washington a model of enlightened urban transportation services.
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Thank you.
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Mr. Dowd, and I do think the map that your commission put together really clearly illustrates as each light came up how many overlapped, and quite a few do, and so that is a situation that we are now trying to deal with.
I think, Mr. Wagner, you in your testimony alluded to the fact, I don't believe there is any one person, even one agency who really knows exactly how many of these shuttles operate in this area. Nobody is really coordinating it and keeping track, is that correct?
Mr. WAGNER. Yes.
Mrs. FOWLER. Well, what authority would GSA require to implement a policy for Federal shuttle buses regarding the frequency of operation or requirements of coordination among neighboring Federal entities? Do you need some legislative authority or can that be done regulatory wise or what type of authority would you need?
Mr. WAGNER. I hesitate to argue for legislative fixes.
Mrs. FOWLER. I know.
Mr. WAGNER. If the Congress were to express a strong interest and are taking a look at a question, then we would certainly take a look at a question and work with our stakeholders and the various interested parties to do that. I think it's more an issue of attention and concern rather than imposing some sort of mandatory requirement. Our own observation in GSA, we've consciously gone away from mandatory services because we find that if you make services mandatory people don't want to use them, and they find administrative and bureaucratic reasons to avoid you. If you take a different tack and do a good job, and, by the way, not being mandatory is a strong encouragement to do a good job and then maybe people might be entitled to have it. If they're good enough, then people start wanting to come to you. So it's more the attention and then we can work with the National Capital folks who are actually actively working with different agencies looking at consolidation. And that combination of efforts to find common solutions along with some attention and also noting there are rather—I think our figure was $11 million being spent annually and yours was 13 million.
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Mrs. FOWLER. We were 16, yeah.
Mr. WAGNER. So there's some real money here, and that combination, I think something along those lines, would work.
Mrs. FOWLER. So in essence you've got the regulatory authority. It's just a matter of as you hear more of an interest expressed from both Congress and from some of your agencies, this is something you can pursue.
Mr. WAGNER. I'm not sure we have the regulatory authority but the interest of Congress combined with our working with agencies is likely to be more effective than me writing a regulation.
Mrs. FOWLER. I think we've definitely got an interest on the subcommittee, and as a downtown D.C. Resident who has to wipe the black soot off of my window sill regularly because of the pollution that's coming out of the vehicles, and when I started looking at this and see how much pollution was just coming out of these that are duplicating and not sharing, some of us that live in D.C. Would probably have a very personal interest in helping the air that we breathe little better in a fairly easy manner.
I thought it was interesting on this poster board over here when the staff was going around looking at the different shuttles. One of the ones that we were real interested and surprised in finding and there's a picture there from one of the HUD shuttles, both the interior and the exterior of it, and when you get up closer—they have got a blowup of it—because this shuttle runs between the main HUD building and the Portals Building every 10 minutes all day long. Now you can walk this distance in 5 to 10 minutes. The building is only two blocks apart, but this shuttle bus has two color TVs on it so that when they're riding this two blocks they can be entertained, and it was interesting that a couple of times the staff rode on it, one time it had Divorce Court on, another time I think it had Price Is Right. So they're not even keeping C-SPAN on there, being entertain ed for the two blocks. So it was interesting whether it makes really good fiduciary sense for the taxpayer to be, one, paying for TV sets on shuttle buses or to pay to transport some of our employees just two blocks every 10 minutes every day.
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So those were the types of things, and when you start really looking even deeper that you begin to uncover, that gets a little more disturbing. But I want to ask because we didn't look at all of them, but is it common for Federal shuttle buses to have TV sets or is this unique to HUD?
Mr. WAGNER. I've only ridden, I guess, the GSA shuttle, at least in the past several years, and I can assure you it doesn't have a television set, and it could benefit from being cleaned more often. But I'm afraid I just don't know on that.
Mrs. FOWLER. And do you usually have shuttle stops so close together? I mean, we were interested, too, to hear they were running the shuttle and it's only two blocks and they run it every 10 minutes all day, every day, just for two blocks. Is that the standard—is there any sort of standard about how long you need to have to go before you qualify to have a shuttle bus?
Mr. WAGNER. This is pretty much agency option. The agencies work out a solution that makes sense to them. I'm not sure—we have some concerns about air pollution, frankly. We also could have some issues on physical fitness if we can't walk three blocks.
Mrs. FOWLER. Exactly. We might have healthier employees if they walked two blocks or at least every 30 minutes instead of every 10 or something. We could cut down.
One of the things you had mentioned, I think had in your written testimony, Mr. Wagner, was the opportunity to convert shuttles to alternative fuel vehicles. How much more does an alternative fuel bus cost if we were going to start doing that?
Mr. WAGNER. One moment, please.
Mrs. FOWLER. Roughly, just ballpark.
Mr. WAGNER. It's about 20- to $30 thousand for the conversion costs.
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Mr. RIVERS. For the unit that would have the incremental cost over conventional.
Mr. WAGNER. On a base of how much? I mean, 20 to 30 thousand is on about a hundred thousand per vehicles?
Mr. RIVERS. Yeah, hundred to 200,000 per vehicles.
Mr. WAGNER. So for a hundred to 200,000 vehicle would be 20- to $30 thousand more to convert to natural gas. I believe the figures I had seen earlier, there are sort of lower maintenance costs, so there are some give-backs. Along with the air quality improvements there are some maintenance improvements. I'd also observe that when you go to alternative fuels like natural gas, you can't be too small. So if you have savings from consolidation you're not in the regime that you're so small that it doesn't make economic sense. So they work together, which is why we got into alternative fuel vehicles in the first place.
Mrs. FOWLER. Well, and that's what we would hope that maybe as a result of some of this and ongoing that we'd first look at consolidating and eliminating some of the shuttles, so before we started doing costly retrofits on them because certainly it would be better on pollution, but it costs more to run them. So if you could look at first, before we do all 139, do you need 139 versus whatever the number might be. So I'm sure that's something GSA is going to be looking at before pursuing that.
Mr. Traficant, before I go any further do you have any questions?
Mr. TRAFICANT. I'm not so sure you get it, Madam Chairwoman. I think HUD is beaming up those passengers with those two televisions, and it's a Star Trek thing here.
I ask unanimous consent that my statement in total be placed in the record.
I ask unanimous consent that the statement of Congressman Blumenauer be placed in the record and any other statements of any of our subcommittee members so given be placed on the record.
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And I ask that any questions that I have in addition to those that I ask be submitted and be answered in writing and I just now want to take—.
Mrs. FOWLER. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. TRAFICANT. —take on one little issue here because I was talking with my trusted counsel who probably has a good grip on this. Why is it that we have this grid with all these interlapping lines and why couldn't the government employee or eligible passenger just have an identification card and be able to get on any one of these and we wouldn't need all of these and we can cut down on the number of these hundred, 200,000 of them, if we have some management in what appears to be a mish-mash of disgust, stupidity, wasted taxpayer dollars, congestion of our town and basically a scenario that makes government look rather foolish, stupid, wasteful and taking money for granted? Because if something doesn't happen, I would recommend closing most of these except those who would have quite a distance of mission.
Having said that, whoever wants to answer that could jump right forward. I know it's pretty far-fetched but it is like a Star Trek question.
Mr. WAGNER. Well, one of the points you make is sharing, and in general it seems to be difficult for organizations to share. When we did our survey several agencies in fact did not allow other agencies to ride on the buses. Frankly, I can tell you across the government as a whole you often run into problems where systems that there would be a great economic gain from sharing, sometimes, perhaps for legal reasons, people say we can't share, but I think that there's a lot to be said for working out—whatever we do is a lot more sharing in whatever solution you get, because the optimal solution is likely to be a combination of some sort of centralized bus service along with others, but in the others you know a little sharing would go a long way.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Not to interrupt you, but give me an example of one of those compelling legal issues that would prohibit whatever agency from sharing.
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Mr. WAGNER. I may need to clarify because I'm remembering from conversations of several weeks ago, but there are situations where the government has given computers to, for example, members of an Indian reservation where the computers are there to support program A and then the Indian reservation is also supported from program B or program C and they're prohibited from using the same computer, and so they end up having multiple computers on the same desk to do the same purpose.
Now, this is anecdotal. I do not want to guarantee it but I find it plausible that since we sometimes look more narrowly at our mandates and the agency, the general counsel in each agency will explain what you can do by law, and I'm sure this is accurate, it's only for the purpose of that agency, but then it can lead to an absurd conclusion.
Mr. TRAFICANT. You said you didn't want to see Congress get involved but Congress could just pass the law and change the law, and then you wouldn't have that legal complication, wouldn't you, and don't you think that needs to be done? I thought you were going to come up with some real sophisticated James Bond, Justice Department type of need to have their own shuttle or something.
I don't particularly think anybody has any specific need for any special type of transport system that the Congress should provide for a basic shuttle system that could be available to all. This would be some universality to it.
Madam Chairwoman, I think there should be some leadership of it, some coordination of it, and if their computers seem to have these difficulties, these computers should be reprogrammed and beamed up so they're all on the same target.
So having said that, I think it's time to get your shuttle in order, get our act in order. This is disgusting. And I want to thank you, Madam Chairwoman, because it doesn't seem like a real big thing down here, but I think it's typical, if you will, and maybe a microcosm of how screwed up things are in our government.
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Thank you.
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Mr. Traficant, and I say, looking back to remember Everett Dirksen's famous quote, a million here and a million there, you get to real money, and when you're spending 16 million on this for a year and it keeps going up, it's just going to get worse unless we get a handle on this and get it back under control and get some better coordination, and I know that's where you're headed at.
I wanted to ask you, Mr. Wagner, another question, the both of you. The report that came out, this interagency four or five years ago, recommended that GSA post these shuttle routes on its Website, and have you done this yet, and if not, why not?
Mr. WAGNER. No, we have not but that doesn't mean we can't. I will get back with our operational side and see if we can do that.
Mrs. FOWLER. Right now I guess there's no place on the Web that an employee could go look, a Federal employee, and see where they went, because if we're looking towards getting people to share, then they need to know where they are, and nowadays the Web is pretty easy access for everybody.
Mr. WAGNER. And it's a very powerful tool for letting us see absurdities and then act accordingly to correct them.
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you. If you could let me know on that.
[The information received follows:]
In the testimony, GSA said that we would look into whether or not it would be operationally feasible to post shuttle routes on a Website. We are working with the operational area to determine what we can do in this area. We will get back to the Committee with a final response as soon as possible.
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Mrs. FOWLER. I want to ask you, can agencies buy shuttle buses even though the GSA has vehicles that would be available for lease for the same purpose?
Mr. WAGNER. I think they're all bought through GSA programs. Is that correct, Bill?
Mr. RIVERS. Yeah. They can be bought directly by an agency or leased from GSA as an agency option.
Mr. WAGNER. But they're using the GSA contracts in either case?
Mr. RIVERS. Yeah.
Mr. WAGNER. So it's either a direct buy or a direct lease through a GSA set up contract.
Mrs. FOWLER. But they have a choice. So if you have some available for lease and they'd rather buy one, you don't say, well, we've got some sitting here that you can lease, you just—they can do it, whichever they prefer?
Mr. WAGNER. That's correct.
Mrs. FOWLER. And do you have the right of first refusal to provide shuttle buses; so for any of these they have to go through GSA, there's no other route?
Mr. WAGNER. Right, they would only use GSA contracts but if—it's essentially agency option whether you lease. These are all commercial vehicles anyway. You could either lease one or buy one outright. In either case it's their option.
Mrs. FOWLER. I thought from some of our information that some were being obtained from contractors and some from the GSA and there was a question as to which were most cost effective.
Mr. RIVERS. There is the ability to go out commercially and lease the operation. That would be the vehicle and the driver, if they are—.
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Mrs. FOWLER. If you could come to the mike that would help.
Mr. WAGNER. This is Bill Rivers.
Mrs. FOWLER. Could you just briefly be sworn in, too.
[witness sworn.]
Mr. RIVERS. Yes, I'm sorry. I thought when you had asked the first question you'd mentioned about coming to GSA whether they wanted to buy vehicles themselves or to lease vehicles from the GSA fleet operation. An agency has that choice. They do have the third option of the commercial approach, that they can go out and arrange with a commercial firm to provide the shuttle service. So they have three different ways of looking at it. I thought you first were just talking about ownership versus GSA—.
Mrs. FOWLER. And they don't have to show that it's more cost effective to do it one way or another, it's just whatever they want to do?
Mr. RIVERS. Their own internal justification. They don't have to justify to GSA.
Mrs. FOWLER. And there's no cap or anything on what sort of budget they can use for shuttle buses or anything like that? It's just each agency doing whatever they want to do?
Mr. RIVERS. That's correct. As long as they're justifying it internally, yes.
Mrs. FOWLER. Okay. Thank you. And either one of you, do these Federal shuttles seem to result in an increase or a decrease in the use of our mass transit system in D.C.? That was one of the issues we were a little concerned with and wondered what you thought, how it's impacting the use of the Metro.
Mr. WAGNER. I couldn't say whether—perhaps Mr. Dowd could. I can't say whether it would be a plus or negative effect. I can say that a concern we have with a prohibition against using a shuttle bus from the Metro station to work and back, that strikes me as discouraging the use of mass transportation and not in the national—.
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Mrs. FOWLER. But those usually would be from points outside the National Mall area often.
Mr. WAGNER. Well, just imagine you take the Metro in to the downtown area, let us say, and then you go to the GSA building, which is at 18th and F street Northwest and take a shuttle from there. That currently appears to be prohibited and that would be a discouragement. That would discourage the use of mass transit, and that's—you can use them during the day to go to another meeting, but to go from the Metro station to work and then from work to the Metro station at the beginning and end of the day at least appears to be prohibited under current law and that does discourage the use of mass transit.
Mrs. FOWLER. You mentioned that earlier and I do think that's something we need to look at, and I think you're going to come forward with some recommendations, I understand, on that. Do you have any thoughts on that, Mr. Dowd?
Mr. DOWD. Just that the legislative restriction is on providing a vehicle to transport employees from home to work and that has been the interpretation, and we too are supportive of getting that resolved so that shuttles can be a bigger influence in getting employees to use transit. I think that further investigation into this is needed to find out how effective these particular shuttles are in promoting transit, but I think it's a good possibility if they're properly managed that it could be.
Mrs. FOWLER. Well, we were concerned, as I mentioned earlier in my opening statement, that some of these stop and start right beside a Metro stop. So that the Metro stop is as convenient really as a shuttle, but they're operating shuttles instead of encouraging their employees to use the public transit system, and I think that's of concern to some of us.
Mr. DOWD. I think we would agree that it is quite apparent that there can be improvements in the current operations.
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Mrs. FOWLER. I want to ask, too, one of the things your Commission is promoting is this downtown circulator and it appears that a lot of these shuttle routes that are depicted on the map, these start or stop really beyond the parameters of the map. Given that, how much of have you looked at, how much of this Federal shuttle business would reasonably be able to be taken over by a downtown circulator?
Mr. DOWD. Let me give you a little bit of background there. There are a number of agencies, District agencies and some private entities and both GSA, National Capital Planning Commission and the Park Service are working together to try to assess, to come up with, a surface circulator system that would supplement people coming into the city on Metro. The Metrorail is an excellent radial transportation system that brings people downtown but it's not the most efficient for getting around town.
Working together, there are several goals that that group has. Obviously each entity has different interests, and NCPC believes that overall the circulator system is one thing that we need moving forward in the future development of the city to encourage, make it a more livable city.
One of the things that that circulator system would do is replace some shuttles on routes that it could run. It's all a matter of where that system starts and how large it can be to begin. The concept is very good and would, in essence, respond to Mr. Traficant's comments about coordinating and having one shuttle that serves both routes. The early studies are projected to have these on about a 5-minute headway in between buses and that they would be very noticeable. They would be low cost or no cost through some innovative financing, and we think that that's the way to go in the future. How we can get there incrementally and how fast we can get there is a matter of cooperation and finding some funding for them.
Mrs. FOWLER. What is your time frame with the circulator just to start the beginning initial phase you were talking about?
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Mr. DOWD. The initial phase is probably a few years out. The routes that are on the planning horizon are, I guess, essentially a north-south route, pretty much up 7th Street and down 9th Street into the downtown area and across the Mall, making that connection, and another route that goes in an east-west direction around Union Station and up through north of the White House.
Mrs. FOWLER. Would the circulator be some type of bus service?
Mr. DOWD. To start out it would need to be a bus service. The long-range vision, which you would see in our Legacy document, is perhaps some sort of dedicated right-of-way, some sort of a light rail type of a thing, but I don't know that that is as critical as the philosophy of having some dedicated system that people recognize and get on and off. It comes on a regular, timely manner.
Mrs. FOWLER. Well, hopefully we can get a handle on this because I would be concerned if we did that without eliminating some of this, because some of the figures they pulled together that if we just reduced the miles that are traveled by these duplicating Federal shuttle buses by only 10 percent, it would eliminate almost 11 tons of pollution from the Metro area. So I wouldn't want to add more to it until we can take some out and I don't know how many agencies would voluntarily make these reductions. I think it is going to take really some cooperation and working together when—if you've got people who are used to having a shuttle outside every 10 minutes to take them two blocks, we've got a way to go, but I'm hoping this subcommittee is going to continue to follow on this and that we can—when you're just looking at air quality alone, not counting the cost, that if we can start coordinating better, sharing, cutting out the duplication and then move towards, as you've said, something that everyone would recognize that they could use and have a pass to get on and off, and if they have to walk one block maybe that might be okay, or two would work. I think we're heading hopefully in that direction.
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Mr. Traficant, did you have any other questions?
Mr. TRAFICANT. Just have one more. Subsequent to the discussion we were just having relative to some of the comments you were receiving, why do we really need this shuttle system?
Mr. DOWD. The existing shuttles?
Mr. TRAFICANT. Yes.
Mr. DOWD. Well—.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Why can't we just scrap it all, save the money, and I wonder how many people that would really affect that truly have no other means and/or a justifiable right to use it, because some of the scuttlebutt is—and around here you don't know what scuttlebutt is correct. You have scuttlebutt that's correct and you have scuttlebutt that's incorrect, but this scuttlebutt says that some of the workers of these agencies use the shuttle to get back and forth to work. I'm going to ask you, is that a fact? Have we ever done a study to see who are the user s and the consumers of these services? Who were they originally predicated, designed to serve? Are they in fact meeting the target population of which they were designed to meet and do we need these at all? I'm starting to wonder after seeing this grid if it is a Rorschach puzzle and whether or not we need the shuttle at all or these myriads of shuttles.
So who could tell me, has there ever been a comprehensive study and analysis as to who the consuming users of this system are and for what purposes they use this system? Mr. Wagner.
Mr. WAGNER. The studies that we've done to date pretty much just look at agency use, who's travelling, but we don't get into do they really need to do it. We certainly do know that government employees often have to get from one building to the next, and we're reasonably confident that that is the purpose of the use of the shuttle. When GSA folks go from headquarters to National Capital Region and back, they're going back and forth to meetings. As to whether or not it would be more cost effective to simply take taxis or Metro and working all that time, to my knowledge there's been no such—.
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Mr. TRAFICANT. Well, let me ask you this then. This HUD shuttle is what, two, three blocks, two blocks. I mean, that wouldn't really kill somebody unless they had a real serious, you know, heart problem. But there's another question I have. What is the average size of one of these shuttles and how many passengers do they accommodate in most cases since they cost $200,000? How many seats are on them, on the average shuttle that is depicted on this grid work that we're looking at?
Mr. WAGNER. I think we have got in our survey that we've got a tabulation of how many are van sized, how many are bus size. I could submit that to you separately rather than—.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Well, do that, give me an exact count. What I would like to know is when they do ride these buses—like many times I see buses that have fifty seats and there's two people on them. What is the percentage of vehicle occupancy per agency? That's my question and I want it submitted to this committee, and if you do not have that information, Madam Chairwoman, I ask unanimous consent that this committee thus request of GSA and all participating shuttle entities a passenger vehicle utilization accounting.
Mrs. FOWLER. We will request—the subcommittee does request that information. So it would be something that would be interesting.
[The information received follows:]
[insert here]
Mr. TRAFICANT. And in closing, as I sit here and first commended the chairwoman because these things don't look all that sexy and they don't get a lot of attention and people like to deal with all the fantastic things down here, but she has a practical way of doing things that have been very helpful, and I look at this and I'm starting to wonder, does this need improved or does this need removed. Is it really needed? You can also give me the total cost of this shuttle system, its capitalization, its maintenance, its fuel costs, its insurance, its manpower and benefit program and a complete—complete cost accounting for what the United States Congress provides in addition to the amount of utilization that that cost would provide. And then give me, if you will, predicated on all these different computerized systems, a computer version of what an average passenger cost is per average typical shuttle. Do you understand that? Because this Rorschach business has me maybe not articulating as what I'd like, but do you understand what I'm asking for?
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Mr. WAGNER. Yes.
Mr. TRAFICANT. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
[The information received follows:]
The committee asked if GSA had cost breakdown information on the shuttle services. This would include such things as total cost, maintenance, fuel costs, etc. The attached survey results [see chart on page 15] do give an overall estimated cost of the shuttle service by Agency. We do not have a more finite cost breakdown.
Mrs. FOWLER. Thank you, Mr. Traficant. I think we have opened the door for some further investigation on this, and if there are no further questions, I really want to thank both of you for your excellent testimony. The information that you have shared with us has really been helpful, and as you can hear, we're looking forward to continuing to work with you on this effort, and again, I want to thank you again, both GSA and National Capital Planning Commission, for your great assistance to the subcommittee and pulling information together and preparing these visual displays of the shuttle routes that really, you know, identifies some of these problems.
And just to sort of recap, the subcommittee has identified a significant Federal expenditure of over 16 million to shuttle Federal employees in the Washington Metro area, over 139 vehicles travelling 3-1/2 million miles every year in the Metro area, and we've estimated this results in emissions of almost 110 tons of pollution.
So as the presentation has shown today, a lot of these vehicles travel the same roads and there could be some other cities with a large Federal presence with similar overlaps. This is probably just the tip of the iceberg, but we'll focus on Washington, D.C. Right now. Maybe we can become the model for others.
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So I'm really pleased that the GSA and the National Capital Planning Commission are continuing to work on ways to better coordinate the shuttle system, and I want to urge you to continue this work, and next year I expect that the subcommittee will be following up to assess what progress has been made in this regard, and hopefully we can get to some sharing and to some coordination and eliminating duplication.
So I want to thank both of you again for your participation, for all of your help, and I look forward to continuing working with you on it, and if there's no further business, the subcommittee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:50 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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