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Answer. Absolutely not, and they did no editing at all.
Question. And is it your understanding that whatever tapes were turned over were turned over in their entirety, with however your staff had presented them to the counsels?
Answer. I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking everything they identified and retrieved from the archives, if that is what has been turned over?
Question. Yes.
Answer. I don't believe that is what happened. I actually believe they reviewed hundreds of tapes.
Question. There were many tapes they reviewed that they made a decision weren't responsive, so you didn't end up copying them or doing anything with them?
Answer. We had to make the original, up load to the Beta, down load to the VHS for them to review it, but I don't believe that they were—every one that they reviewed was responsive, for whatever reason, I don't know.
Question. Now in the course of getting all of these tapes pulled back from the archives, do you know if the archives keeps a record of what tapes were requested of them to turn over?
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Answer. I am not certain that they do, but I would assume that they would, because they are handled, you know, pretty carefully.
Question. Record keeping is their business?
Answer. Yes. We provide them with information on the tapes we give to them when we turn them over and we only keep them for about 60 days inside the agency, so I would imagine they keep pretty good records.
Question. And do you know if your office kept a record of all of the videotapes that were requested by the White House counsels to be pulled back from the archives?
Answer. I am pretty certain they did.
Question. And, again, if we could request that record, if you all have that available.
So this process that I guess has been going on for the past couple of weeks, involved just this ongoing process of the White House reviewing these logs, and viewing the videotapes and then asking your staff to make copies of whatever they felt was responsive?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. All right. And to your knowledge, all of the videotapes they asked you to copy have been copied and provided?
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Answer. That is correct.
Question. Or provided to the Counsel's Office. I understand you may not know who physically brought them up here or if they were even brought up here?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Has anyone in the Counsel's Office, in addition to these videotapes, now asked you to go back and look through any other records you might have that would be responsive to various requests?
Answer. Mr. Sullivan, the Director of the White House Military Office, has directed us to go through all of our databases again, and since then the White House Counsel's Office has provided new search criteria, I think it was like three pages of words that—to use to go through that base, and we have been going through that effort for probably a week and a half, 2 weeks now.
Question. Have they provided you with dates of events, in addition to names, or words?
Answer. No, the three-page document, which is a list of words, the dates and names, pretty much were worked as it relates to—in regards to the video and audio archive data base. That is really where the date part was really pertinent. The three-page list, it was just a list of key words, like DNC fund-raisers, those types of things. I do believe the search after the time frame was from '93 to '96, but I am not certain of that.
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Question. All right.
Answer. But I know we were looking through entire databases.
Question. You have actually gotten a sort of new three-page directive from the Counsel's Office instructing your office to look for a list of new items through all of your databases?
Answer. Right. The direction to check came from the White House Military Office and the three-page list of words, I believe, came directly from the White House Counsel's Office, but I am not certain of that. It is a little convoluted how that all happened.
Question. Do you recall, was that this week or last week when you received it, if you know?
Answer. I believe it was last week.
Question. And, again, if we could get a copy of that.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Being the 12th or the week of the 5th?
The WITNESS. Week of the 5th. I think it was the tail-end of that week, but I'm not certain.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Have you had any other discussions or meetings with anyone in the Counsel's Office, you know, with them informing you of the kind of information that they were seeking in order to assist you in pinpointing information that you might have available?
Answer. No, we have a pretty clear understanding what you are looking for now. No one from the Counsel's Office, has, as I recall—well, there was one brief meeting. Cheryl introduced me to you, and that was all that meeting really entailed.
Question. Now, the subpoena we had, the March 4th subpoena, which was Exhibit No. 4, has anyone provided that subpoena to you to date?
Answer. No.
Question. Has anyone in the Counsel's Office provided any other subpoena to you?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. So other than this three-page summary of items, are you aware of any other information provided to your office in terms of searching for items?
Answer. No.
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Question. All right. So, for example, if Webster Hubbell's name isn't on that—do you recall if Webster Hubbell's name is on that three-page directive?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. If his name were not on that directive, would it be safe to assume you are not looking for anything related to him in your search?
Answer. That is a very safe assumption.
Question. Well, I would just note, maybe this is something you all want to take up with counsel so you don't end up revisiting this again in the future, our subpoena does include all records relating to Webster Hubbell. That is something we had represented to us in June of this year, had been fully complied with, that I don't know if that has been something searched or not but that is one thing also. I will be happy to provide you with a copy of our subpoena, also, if that would be of any assistance, but in particular, the items, all items related to John Huang and the Riadys, I think it is items 1 through 7 on the subpoena, have been represented to us as having been fully complied with. And I don't know if you can take a look at the names there, I am wondering if those are names, if you can recall, that are on the three-page list?
Answer. I don't recall.
Question. Just to be clear, is it words or names that they have on this new list?
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Answer. I don't even believe they are names, I think they were like words like ''DNC fund-raiser.'' I don't recall names. I am not saying names aren't on there, but I just glanced at it and we gave it to folks working in our data centers. They have been doing queries of our E-mail system and various other databases that we have, but I don't recall names being on the list.
Question. Okay. And, then again, do you recall dates being—particular dates being on the list?
Answer. I don't remember dates being on the list, but I think the direction was to look back as far as January of '93 to December of '96, I believe, that whole window.
Question. Okay. Do you know if there is anything like, you know, look under this particular event to see if particular individuals are there, or anything like that?
Answer. No, nor do I believe that would ever be given to us because we don't know any of the individuals. For instance, our video crews are only about 3 percent of the individuals in the agency that are involved in that production, meaning the sound and lighting and the recording and the video piece and the video crew. A part of that 3 percent is only seven individuals. So a very small amount of people in the agency is involved in that, and their focus is to capture the Presidency. They have no interest at all who is attending the various functions, so giving us names does not help us.
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Question. Does not help you at all?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you have explained that now to the Counsel's Office fairly clearly?
Answer. Numerous times, since the 29th of August.
Question. So it is your belief they have an understanding that if they want to be able to find videotapes or audio tapes that pertain to something, that they need to come to you with information, such as a date and the people they are looking for, and then perhaps even look for that person themselves, if you don't happen to know who that person is?
Answer. We won't know. They would have to give us a date and a title of an event and somebody who knows them. We would provide the tape for them to review it and somebody that has knowledge of the individuals, who is capable of identifying them, would physically have to get in front of the monitor and point that individual out, independent of our following.
Question. If somebody told you we are looking for all the videotapes on Mr. Wu, you won't know Mr. Wu from Mr. Smith or Mr. Jones?
Answer. That is absolutely correct.
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Question. Have you been given any type of deadline on this new request?
Answer. We have been directed to do it as quickly as possible. There is no way you can give a deadline, and the reason for that is some of the databases that we have, they are not smart enough, like say for instance, you give me, say, a key search word of ''DNC,'' and it is in the title of an event or something, some of our databases, especially our records cable system or E-mail system, it will search the entire text of an E-mail document and if ''DNC'' appears anywhere, it may have nothing to do with Democratic Committee, but just because it is in the text, they are going to get a hit and somebody has to manually go in and review that. So right now today, based on the new search criteria, there are thousands of documents that they are going through, you know, taking a look at, that are just not relevant to this at all, but they are still going through the process.
Question. And that is the Counsel's Office that is going through that, continuing to go through that process, in terms of reviewing?
Answer. Our own individuals are looking at that right now. If it is something that is pertinent to the administration, I mean, even an internal E-mail document that I sent to somebody in my staff, that I may have used, you know, ''DNC'' or maybe a better example, say the word ''complete,'' maybe in the new word search, if P-L-E is somewhere in the text it may take a hit. So they have to physically go and take a look at it. So just about everything in our system right now is being manually reviewed to see if it is relative to the effort, and once they find it is, they will afford it. But right now they really haven't had a lot of pertinent or substantive hits. But they are still going through this extensive process because we have a new search criteria and we have been directed to do so. Some of this may take a month or more to go through.
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Question. You also have photograph databases, is that correct, or photo on databases?
Answer. We have a photo archival system, where they have like contact sheets, negative type information, you know, of photos that were taken by the members of the White House Photo Office, which is independent of the White House Communications Agency.
Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. You said negative type information, you mean negatives?
Answer. Negatives, right. I'm sleepy.
Question. Any time you want to take a break.
Answer. We don't take any still photography. We do develop for the White House office and we do have a database with that information in it.
Question. And how is that searched?
Answer. I believe there is actually numbers that are assigned to specific events, I don't know, I am not really that familiar with that database system. I know there have been some queries for information, from I believe originally out of the White House Counsel's Office, but I am not certain. But I know we are checking all data bases.
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Question. Are you aware of the White House Press Office coming to—going to the photo people to ask for the negatives, get access to the negative contact sheets?
Answer. The White House press?
Question. Yes.
Answer. I don't have first-hand knowledge of it, but that is highly probable. I don't know if it has taken place or not.
Question. Have you heard about anybody doing that or has anybody in your office told you about that occurring?
Answer. No, and I would believe, if there was such a request from someone in the White House, it probably would come out of the White House Photo Office, not the White House press, but I am not aware of it.
Question. If someone were to go to—who was the person who sort of in charge of the whole photo database in your office?
Answer. The photo lab comes under the Washington Area Support Directorate, which is part of the Visual Division, and I just can't recall who is in charge of that now. It used to be a Sergeant Goanes, and I am not sure who is in charge of it currently.
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Question. And could you just describe the process of how those photographs are archived and maintained?
Answer. I am really not that familiar with it. I know they do the development, they create a document, it is called a contact sheet. On the contact sheet they will have various frames that were taken, each one is assigned a number, the overall sheet has a number. I know they pass that to—routinely pass it to the White House Photo Office and they will identify which pictures they want to have, you know, larger, or actually prints made of and they will do that. But I am really just not that familiar with that archival system, you would have to talk to one of the technicians.
Question. Do you know if——
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. For the record, we have been joined by Christopher Lu, who is Minority counsel on our staff.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if over the past 6 or 9 months, in terms of responding to any directives or requests from the Counsel's Office, whether or not any photos have been provided to the Counsel's Office?
Answer. I am not certain whether it has or not, but I was recently in a conversation and I don't remember who made the comment, they said it had been—there had been inquiries or a request for the photo lab to provide contact sheets, and I don't even remember recalling who made that statement in response to an inquiry.
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Question. So there was somebody in your office who said they had been asked to provide contact sheets?
Answer. Not in my immediate office, just somebody in the agency. There had been so many conversations about inquiries and providing information in the last 2 weeks, I just don't even remember who made the comment.
Question. And is there an original contact sheet that would stay in your office and you give a copy or if somebody requests it does the original go out?
Answer. I believe we will always have a copy of the original.
Question. Is that generally true for just about any record in your office, that any time a tape or an audio or something goes out, it goes out as a copy and you maintain the originals?
Answer. That is correct, we would never get like a master or an original videotape or an audio tape. The exception to that, the only time I have ever seen in 8 1/2 years is this recent time we provided it to the Justice Department.
Question. But the normal practice would be, I mean, if somebody in the President's office called up and wanted a tape of his radio address, you would copy that tape and send it up to that office, you wouldn't send up the original for them to copy?
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Answer. That is correct.
Question. That is part of the service you all provide?
Answer. That is.
Question. Does that occur often, that people from various offices in the White House will make a request to your office to get a copy of an audio or a video?
Answer. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen from time to time.
Question. And what is the process?
Answer. I am really not that familiar with it. I know there is a release sheet that they have, in our master control facility that identifies certain individuals that tapes can be released to. I know that they will make a copy if we still have it, we normally maintain it for about 60 days. If they don't, they go to archives and retrieve it and make a copy, they provide it to the office and keep it up to about 2 weeks, and then they will go back and retrieve that, and just copy over that tape.
Question. And it is your understanding that there is some kind of request form that needs to be filled out in order for your office to produce a video?
Answer. I think they just call and say I am from the White House Media Affairs Office and I would like to have a copy of the President's radio address, and I believe they put it in a little log.
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Question. Your office puts it on a log?
Answer. Our agency, yes. Maybe I can help put this in perspective. There are about 850 people in the agency. This office of the AV portion that we are really talking about is really a very small group, about four layers or five layers, so I have very little first-hand knowledge of their internal procedures.
Question. How many people are in that AV unit?
Answer. Actually, there are probably about 100 people, roughly, that are associated with the audio visual duties of the agency, but the ones that really do event production in the video crew, there are 18 people assigned to event productions, pertaining to the audio piece, 7 do the video camera and then we have this facility called master control, which is also part of the audio visual mission, and there is probably 10 or 12 people working. So we are talking about a total of, at the most, 40 people, that really are involved in that type of stuff on the White House complex. And the only reason I bring that to the table is because I have very little first-hand knowledge of all the A to Z mechanics associated with how they do business.
Question. Because WHCA has, what, approximately a thousand employees?
Answer. 850.
Question. And you are overseeing all the other offices?
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Answer. That is correct, from an operational perspective, and there are a lot of layers between me and them and we are kind of in the weeds from my perspective, but—someone that works in our office could be more conversant on that, but my understanding is they do log in those types of requests, and they do go back and retrieve those tapes and I know for a fact they never give up originals and that is the extent of my knowledge.
Question. So if someone had wanted to, you know, if I was there and shook hands with the President and now I am running for Congress and want that tape, can somebody go in and make a request through somebody that I would like to get that copy of the videotape in the Rose Garden, shaking hands with the President, something like that?
Answer. I don't know of that happening ever; I don't see it happening, quite honestly.
Question. If you know, do you know what type of requests are made?
Answer. I have seen requests, you know, where the President may have made—he may have had a structured speech, you know, that was written, and he may have deviated from the text, and he may have liked, you know, what he said and he wanted to hear that or maybe incorporate it in another speech or something and they have asked for copies of a tape, and then we give it right back. I mean, I don't know of any incident where somebody that attended, you know, one of his meetings or whatever, and asked for a copy and then we provided it, and if we had we wouldn't know that directly anyway because we would never take a request from someone outside of the White House. So we would have no knowledge of that.
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Question. But the request would then have to come from somebody within the White House?
Answer. Absolutely.
Question. And is it a fairly small group of people that would have to make that request?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Do you know generally who the people are who have to make that request?
Answer. I know the Media Affairs Office is one of the offices. It is very likely maybe the Social Office may request that, but I am not certain.
Question. And is the process you would make a copy of the tape but then they end up returning the tape to you after they looked at it?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Is there an obligation for them to return the tape or do you track it down and get the copy of it or is it something that they can actually have a copy and take home and keep in their file for their memoirs?
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Answer. There have been—there is probably some of both, but internally you have a procedure because it is DOD property that we use, that VHF tape, so that is really why we go out to retrieve it. And from my knowledge, people are very good at turning it back. Our folks will be proactive and call them and say we gave you a tape. There are cases where like the Boy Scouts of America, the President did an event with them and they want a copy of it and they may come to us and ask for it or we may direct them back to Media Affairs or some other office within the White House and they will call and if we have it internally, if it is still maintained in White House Communications Agency facility, we may make a copy and turn it over. We may give it to them and we know it is gone forever, but the norm for something like that is we would direct them to National Archives. Because it is in a public domain you can request it and get a copy.
Question. Is that your understanding, once you send them over, and it is over there, there is supposed to be public access to those records?
Answer. That is my understanding.
Question. Has that been the practice, you said you have been with the agency for 8 years or so?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And so any event that may have been taped from 1993 or 1994, we should be able to get by going down to the archives, as well as—?
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Answer. I believe that that is true. I know the Archives will make copies. I don't know, you know, all their rules and regulation of who can and who can't, but I do believe the public has access to that information. That is why I was a little surprised why they came to us. You know, we just recently heard about audio and videotapes the 29th of August, I was a little surprised why they didn't just go to the National Archives and get the information.
Question. Have you heard anything about the Archives not providing such information or being prevented from providing any such information in recent years?
Answer. No. I know they have worked a lot with us providing information here in the last 2 weeks, but I never heard of them not providing anything.
Question. Let us discuss a little bit, to the extent that you have an understanding of this, how the audiovisual crews operate on a day-to-day basis, how they get their instructions and how they decide what they're going to tape or not going to tape.
Answer. It differs between the audio and the video side slightly. I will talk audio first.
Both of them use the President's schedule as a planning document. On the President's published schedule, it will have the event, and there is some recurring, routine type events that we know that we always support, like radio addresses and things of that nature. In addition to that, they get taskings that come from the White House Social Office.
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There is an event that requires audiovisual support. They have a template type document that goes to various elements within the White House, White House Communications Agency being one, and on that sheet it will have things like ''record,'' ''announce,'' I think ''mike,'' just different audiovisual type services. Oh, there you go.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I will show you this. This is a Residence Event Task Sheet. Actually, there is three of them in this packet, and we will make that Deposition Exhibit Number—I think we are up to 8. And it is EOP 023953, EOP 023930, and EOP 023910.
[Smith Deposition Exhibit No. SS–8 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And is this the type of task sheet that you would be given?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And where do these come from?
Answer. This document, I believe, is created out of the White House Social Office, and it is either faxed or hand carried over to our event productions office in the Old Executive Office Building.
Question. And who is in charge of the White House Social Office?
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Answer. I believe it's Sara Farnsworth, but I'm not certain of that.
Question. Is it your understanding Ms. Farnsworth would provide this type of task sheet to your office on a daily basis or——
Answer. On an as-needed basis, when there was a requirement for White House Communications Agency support for an event on the White House complex.
Question. And do you recall these type of sheets being received for White House coffees or anything like that?
Answer. I would never have seen these types of sheets. The execution for these types of requirements are really decentralized. It is actually done in that work center, so Chief McGrath and Sergeant VanKareun, those types of individuals would be the ones that would actually see these types of documents and build a support group to go out to meet this requirement.
Question. And maybe if you could just explain these task sheets, to the extent that you have knowledge about them.
Answer. As I mentioned earlier, the task sheet goes to various offices within the White House. It has the White House photo office on there, the military office, and then it has the White House Communications Agency, and that is the part that is pertinent to us.
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On there, you will see things like podiums, mikes, recording, and it says yes or no. And there is an asterisk which would depict—if, for instance, a podium was required on that date, a speaking platform for the President, she would mark a ''yes.'' On this particular example she marked ''no.''
Question. So the star that's next to ''no,'' that little asterisk?
Answer. Right.
Question. Represents the ''no''?
Answer. The no requirement.
Question. There is no podium?
Answer. Required. Exactly.
Question. And we are both looking at EOP 023953, the top page, just for the record.
Answer. Exactly.
Question. And then on this one, where it says ''announcer, mike,'' it also has an asterisk that says ''no;'' is that correct?
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Answer. That's correct.
Question. And on this one, it also says ''recording,'' and the asterisk there, it would be your understanding, is for the ''no''?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Now, the July 31, 1995, coffee was actually one of the coffees that we got a tape for. Do you know how it would be that it would end up being taped whereas this sheet had given your office directions not to? What event would have intervened in between?
Answer. What would have happened—first of all, the date of the event is 3 August, not July 31.
Question. You are correct; I'm sorry; the document creation date is July 31.
Answer. This document would have not come to the White House Communications Agency for this particular event, because if you look at everything, the asterisks indicate no, as you mentioned earlier. However, you do know it was videotaped. How that really happens, this very likely was on the President's schedule as a coffee for that particular day.
Shifting from audio to video, the video team leader or supervisor for that day on 3 August would have actually met with, most likely, a member of the White House staff. Daily they meet with the President's aide, Steve Goodin, and they would just ask him: Do you want us to be there or not? And he would say yes or no.
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If you have a tape, he or somebody representing him or that office requested us to be there. And then routinely, the way they do business is, they would be told when to be there, and they would be queued in and queued out. And that is pretty much how that happened. That is normal business.
These would routinely say no. Where it says ''White House television'' here, that is the old name. It is really now the White House Communications Agency camera crew, but it is all the same organization.
Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Can we take 5 minutes or so?
[Brief recess.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. We began this deposition at 4 o'clock today. At no time did Mr. McLaughlin, who, as the designated counsel by the Minority, indicate that he had to leave. He was clearly aware that this deposition would be very likely to go longer than 2 hours.
At 6:20, Mr. McLaughlin informed everybody that he had to leave and apparently go out for a social engagement. So even though he is the designated Minority counsel for this deposition, he has just decided to leave in the middle of the deposition, an extremely unprofessional action that we have not had occur in any prior deposition. In my experience in this investigation or any prior investigations, or, in fact, in my legal experience, having an attorney leave in the middle of a deposition is a fairly unusual circumstance.
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But in his place he has asked to have Mr. Lu here, who is not the designated counsel, and our rules provide that there is one counsel from each side per round. We are on the first round. Mr. McLaughlin began the first round, and now he has exited. So we are going to proceed with this deposition so that we can finish up with our witness here.
Mr. Lu. If I can state the Minority's position for the record, and let's just move on with it. I don't think we need to sit here and discuss Mr. McLaughlin's professionalism or lack of professionalism. I don't think that is really appropriate for a deposition. I don't think it's appropriate at 6:25 to be arguing about this on a Saturday evening.
The Minority's position is that it is acceptable and it is within the context of the rules of the committee to switch counsel during a deposition. Mr. McLaughlin informed me that he has not asked any questions during this round. And we would argue even more so that our round of questioning has not even begun. Our round typically is begun after the Majority has asked all of its questions, and that is the position that the Majority has always stated when we have tried to ask follow-up questions.
So I don't want to belabor this point. At the end of Majority counsel's questions, if I have any questions, I'm happy to let Majority counsel state that objection on the record. If at that point I am not allowed to continue, that's fine, we will just put that on the record and we will reserve our right to call the witness back at another point, something I don't think the witness or the witness's counsel or Majority counsel wants.
I don't see any harm that is done from switching counsel at this point, but I think at this late time of the day we should just move on and try to wrap this up.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, we are not going to object to you going ahead and asking questions because the designated Minority counsel has taken these unprofessional actions and decided to leave. We will, obviously, allow you to ask questions for the record.
Mr. McLaughlin was making comments earlier in the deposition and was acting in the capacity as designated counsel during the deposition. You were not here, so I don't know what representations he made to you. Apparently, at some point this evening, he decided to call you and inform you to come in, something he never discussed with us, because if he had indicated to us there was going to be a problem, we could have either waited for you to come in or have proceeded.
But Mr. McLaughlin apparently just decided to play musical chairs here with attorneys, and there was no need for this if he had informed us beforehand. But I think his record and behavior speaks for itself, and we will proceed.
Mr. Lu. Well, you have attacked the credibility of one of my colleagues, and all I can say is, Mr. McLaughlin has performed professionally, admirably, throughout this investigation, and I object to the characterization of his actions as anything but professional.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Well, I think leaving in the middle of a deposition speaks for itself.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Are you aware of records that are kept in your office on the use of White House fleets and cars, carpool information?
Answer. Not at all. The White House Communications Agency doesn't use the White House fleet of cars.
Question. I'm sorry, maybe I'm unclear. Are there any phone systems that are used with the cars that would go through your office?
Answer. None that I'm aware of.
Question. When we were discussing earlier the videotaping that is sometimes done for events, if a staff member perhaps requests a video of a President's speech to look at, you know, how that was done, do you know anything about a system whereby that taping can be put on some kind of White House internal TV system for people to watch?
Answer. Within our agency, we have a facility called a master control facility and we have several dedicated channels where we can do an internal distribution of something, if it was requested, or even a live event that was being captured by one of the networks. We could distribute it internal to the White House complex.
Question. So it is the kind of thing where you can say, I would like to see this at 6 p.m., the President's State of the Union from 1995, and you can plug that into the system for someone to watch in their office?
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Answer. Technically, that could be done.
Question. And do you keep logs of that type of thing also?
Answer. I'm not certain if we do or not.
Question. Were you aware of people in the Counsel's Office, of Mr. Breuer or Mr. Ruff, reviewing any particular tapes and any questions they may have had for you about any particular tapes?
Answer. No, not at all.
Question. Did anybody in the Counsel's Office ever ask you about any cuts in any tapes or any edits that had been made?
Answer. None at all. We don't do editing, so I don't see why that question would come up.
Question. You had mentioned earlier, or we discussed pretty much at the top of the deposition, about your being upset when you had seen news accounts about how WHCA had somehow missed the tapes. Did anyone in the Counsel's Office ever say anything to you directly about that?
Answer. You mean about the articles themselves? Is that your question?
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Question. Yes.
Answer. No.
Question. Did they ever say whether they were misquoted or that they didn't mean for it to come out that way or anything like that?
Answer. I was in one phone conversation with Colonel Simmons and Cheryl Mills and myself, and she made just kind of a general comment that, don't worry about what's in the newspaper. But I don't really remember her saying anything specific about a particular quote, but just kind of a general comment, don't be overly concerned about that, you know. That's pretty much it.
Question. Now, were you aware of Mr. Breuer and Mr. Imbroscio making themselves available to the press and talking about this to the press?
Answer. After the fact.
Question. Did you see comments that they had made to the press about these matters?
Answer. I just made some assumptions by what I saw in the newspaper that it must have been derived from their comments. I don't really know if that was their actual comments. I have no knowledge of that or any indication of it.
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Question. Now, WHCA's staff, you all can't really go out to the press and tell your side of the story, can you?
Answer. Definitely cannot.
Question. It is like the Secret Service, you guys can't say anything. Really, you don't have a PR office?
Answer. No, we do not.
Question. You don't have a press office that goes out and gives your side or account of events?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. And, obviously, the White House Counsel's Office is aware of that?
Answer. I assume that they are. I don't know that for certain.
Question. And if The Washington Post calls someone in your office up, they can't go on the record and make comments?
Answer. Our office can't. Matter of fact, we have been deferring any type of media type requests to, I believe it was Lanny Davis as a contact.
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Question. And Lanny Davis being the counsel in the White House Counsel's Office who responds to press matters?
Answer. I assume that's what his function is, but that is the name that we've been giving to folks. I haven't directly had any conversations with him, when I have given Lanny Davis' name—oh, yes, I have. I can't remember who it was. There was one. I can't remember if it was Washington Post.
There has been a whole bunch of media folks all the way from the L.A. Times to Washington Post to the various networks trying to track me down since my name appeared in the paper. And I do believe I had a conversation with one of them, and I passed his name as a point of contact for questions.
Question. And who told you that Lanny Davis should be the point of contact?
Answer. It has been put out in our agency. We know it is our internal policy that we don't discuss business with anyone outside the agency. We just don't do it. It's always been the policy.
And with all this visibility here in the last couple of weeks, that's just pretty much what we've been passing out to our staff, to vector everyone that have questions to—outside of the military, to Lanny Davis.
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Question. If the information that Lanny Davis was the point of contact, was that put out in a memo or e-mail, or someone told you orally?
Answer. It was orally, verbal direction.
Question. Do you recall who told you that?
Answer. I think the first time I heard it was probably from Colonel Simmons.
Question. Can I presume Lanny Davis probably isn't someone you were dealing with on a regular basis before?
Answer. Definitely not. Definitely not, no.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of the President being told about the tapes or hear anything about how he was told or when?
Answer. No, I wouldn't have any knowledge on that.
Question. When we discussed earlier not all of the tapes that had been pulled back were necessarily responsive, or your interpretation as well as the counsel's may have been that they weren't responsive so you may have records of hundreds and hundreds of tapes from the archives, that doesn't mean we're going to be getting hundreds and hundreds up here.
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Sort of in that winnowing down process that the Counsel's Office has been going through, have you been privy to any discussions as to the type of tapes that they weren't turning over or that they didn't think were responsive?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you, with your colleagues at WHCA, discussed anything about the individuals who had attended the coffees, a lot of the President's aides and people like Steve Goodin, who had directed cameras to be there and taken them?
Did you ever have a discussion about those people, how come they didn't inform the Counsel's Office or tell somebody about what was fairly common knowledge about the taping?
Answer. No, not really.
Question. Have you had any discussions with Steve Goodin since this occurred?
Answer. Absolutely not.
Question. Do you know if anyone in the WHCA office has had any discussions with Steve Goodin since this occurred?
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Answer. About this?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Not likely, but I have no knowledge of that.
Question. The people who deal with Steve Goodin on a day-to-day basis, the seven or so camera people, who I guess we have been seeing their names, even though we have not seen their faces yet, but have heard their names on a number of the tapes that we have received, those are generally the people who interface with Mr. Goodin on a day-to-day basis?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Is there anybody else at WHCA who would be dealing with Mr. Goodin on any regular basis?
Answer. Not on this issue.
Question. Do you have any knowledge as to how Mr. Goodin decided whether or not an event should be taped or not?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of who Mr. Goodin reported to, who his direct supervisor is?
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Answer. No, I don't. Not really.
Question. You had occasion to travel with the President in your capacity?
Answer. I have.
Question. And on those trips, did Mr. Goodin go around with the camera crews? Is that generally what occurs?
Answer. He doesn't really travel with the camera crew. It's more the other—the camera—there's always a camera crew assigned. Even when they are on Air Force One, there is a camera that is assigned.
When they arrive at the event, they move around to various locations. The procedure for them to get directions is pretty much the same. Either they get a task from Steve Goodin, and there are a couple of other members of the administration that also may play into that; I think Chris Inskov is another individual that may, but it happens the same way. They get tasked from him on the road and also in the Washington area.
Question. Is it your impression that it is generally sort of an ad hoc process, as they are sort of going along throughout the day, like, come on down and tape, the President is down in Texas and is going through a day-day center, then he stops off somewhere that maybe wasn't planned, and they say, come on tape something here in the hospital?
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Answer. Very much so. But their focus is always the President. They are not really taping the event or who is attending or where he is. They are really just keyed on trying to capture the President for archival purposes, and it is very much ad hoc for the video piece especially.
Question. Is the practice such that Steve Goodin would sort of start out an event? Say if he goes to a dinner at a private home, it's going to be 20 people or so, they will film the beginning of it and then sort of, okay, cut off now, now we're going to have a really private event?
Answer. Very much so like that. They may come in; there may be an event, say, like at a private residence, that may last hours. They may only film 2 or 3 minutes. They may film 5 minutes, but they normally will get the first minute or so, and then they will cue them to stop covering the event, and then maybe at the tail end of it they may get a piece again.
But he doesn't normally say, get this, get that. He will just tell them, okay, he's going to come in this entrance; capture that.
Question. Just sort of follow him usually—not specifically follow him, but make sure you get a picture with Jill and Jack?
Answer. No, it's not normally that direct. And, one, they know we are there to capture the Presidency, and they also know we don't know who these individuals are. So somebody would literally have to be there. And they know that is not what our mission is, to capture these other individuals that are attending these various functions.
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Question. So they are usually not there saying, make sure you get Barbara Streisand in this frame?
Answer. No.
Question. There is no sort of stage directions; your camera crew is told, sort of, show up, and they make the elective decision to really focus on the President, follow him around?
Answer. Exactly.
Question. And get him in the picture, and everybody else is sort of peripheral to the camera crew?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. Now, when we watch some of these coffee tapes and we see them just cut off at some point, that is because that is exactly the way it was taped then?
Answer. Exactly.
Question. Does that mean at that point that that is when Mr. Goodin or whoever was doing that kind of said, cut, you're out of here?
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Answer. He probably just signaled, nodded to them or something, and they walked out.
Breaks in the tape can be a variety of reasons. It could be that somebody was walking past the camera guy and he literally just cut the camera off to let the individual pass by him.
Another thing that could cause that type of thing is, as you mentioned, they are cued to get out. Or it could be they are changing tapes. And when they're changing tapes in the camera, they have to cut the camera off and cut it back on.
You can normally view the tape and pretty much figure out what is going on, if you are familiar with it.
If they are changing positions can be another thing. Or if they are walking from point A to point B, they would normally cut the camera off.
Sometimes they would leave it on and you would see the floor or the back of a table and you wonder what is going on, but that is usually what it is, they are just moving around, kind of an independent operation once they have queued the film.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think at this point we may look at a couple of tapes, and if you could maybe comment on them.
We are looking at White House tape number 5, which is a February 19th, 1996, dinner at the Hay Adams Hotel.
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[Videotape shown.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. If we can freeze it there.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Where the screen sort of goes black and then goes on, can you explain, if you know, what has happened?
Answer. Obviously, the only person that can give you an exact answer to what happened here is the individual that was on that camera that day. But most likely what happened there is, he just stopped filming, just cut it off at that point, because they don't capture the entire event. They caught the President, he panned out, and that's probably all he wanted to do.
Question. And when people come back from events and they have their tapes, that is exactly how it was taped, it just goes directly into the archives in whatever way it was taped? It is not edited or changed in any way?
Answer. That's right, it is not edited.
Question. Have you ever had anyone on any occasion ask you to edit or do any editing of any event where it's like, gosh, we really didn't mean for you to be there, can you cut the end of the tape when somebody got really silly, and it was something, or it was like some event you were inadvertently at or taped?
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Answer. No, and I believe if that had ever happened, a request to do something like that, I would have heard about it, because something like that would be—that is not what we do.
We are there to capture the Presidency. We are not there to edit in any way. And our procedures are to turn that in, assign a number to it, put it into our database, and eventually get it off to the archives.
So I believe if there ever was such a request, that would immediately come up to my office, and that has never happened, and I have never even heard of it in the 8 and a half years I have been affiliated with the agency.
Ms. COMSTOCK. This is tape 63, which I believe is the end of a radio address, or it's in the Oval Office with the President, some type of photo-op situation. The date on this is September 10th, 1994.
[Videotape shown.]
The WITNESS. I saw where it changed frames. Is that what you're talking about?
Ms. COMSTOCK. Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
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Question. Again, the President was talking with James Riady. Then there was a frame switch, and John Huang and Mark Middleton was in the picture also.
Do you have any knowledge of that?
Answer. I don't have firsthand knowledge, but it is very likely that they were changing film at that time, and it takes a few seconds to do that. So that is probably what happened then.
Question. And I don't want to put you on the record here as making representations about these tapes. I do want to state for the record that we understand that you are just sort of giving us your understanding of these things, of your experience in viewing tapes, and not making any particular representations about these particular tapes, because I understand you weren't there and you didn't take them, but we really are just asking you for your knowledge of the process and using these as examples in that process. So I wanted that to be clear for the record so there is no misunderstanding.
Since these events have come to light in the past few weeks, have you had anybody—you mentioned the press tried to contact you. Has anyone other than the White House Counsel's Office come to you directly and tried to talk with you about these matters?
Answer. No. A Washington Post individual approached me coming out of the grand jury, but nobody other than that.
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Question. Has anyone in the White House, any other staffers or anybody from any office, come to you to talk to you about your account of what happened or anything like that?
Answer. No.
Question. Following the news reports last week, after, I guess, your Senate deposition and then that information came out, did anybody from the Counsel's Office at that point come to you again to discuss whatever account you had given to the Senate of these events?
Answer. No.
Question. A little earlier, we had been discussing how the camera crews—their planning documents, and how they decide what events to videotape, and you had mentioned they worked off of the President's schedule.
Do they get the President's private schedule or his complete schedule of what he is actually doing every day as opposed to his public schedule?
Answer. I believe it is a private schedule, but internal distribution to certain elements within the White House. I don't believe it's the same one you see on television and in the newspaper.
Question. I ask that in particular; I don't want to hide the ball here, but the coffees were not on the President's public schedule in any way, and I was wondering if you have any knowledge of the coffees being on those private schedules or if it was a situation where the camera crews just sort of went around with Mr. Goodin and he said, ''Here you are; film''?
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Answer. I don't recall seeing—personally seeing coffee on his schedule, but I think it's very likely that it was on his schedule that is distributed internal to the White House.
The only reason I say that is because the example, or the task sheet for 3 August, which was Exhibit 8, indicated that there was no White House—excuse me—White House Communications Agency camera crew requirement, but we do know that they videotaped it. So something had to prompt our individual to go find out what needed to be done.
They're not just haphazardly hanging around Steve Goodin all day. They would normally go to him around 9 o'clock in the morning. This one here actually happened at 8:30 in the morning, as indicated on Exhibit 8. I can only assume that they got that from him earlier on.
Question. Would the situation be something like, the night before they may have called and said, ''Make sure you have camera crews here at 8:30,'' or do you have camera crews there 24 hours a day?
Answer. They are not there 24 hours a day. I think they are there until about 8:00 at night. I'm not certain if that's the time they shut down. Obviously, it is dependent. If he has an event scheduled, they are there until that is over. But we do not keep people there around the clock.
But the normal procedure for them is to take a look at the schedule when they come in in the morning. The schedule is faxed the night before. They will get in about 8 o'clock, check the schedule, and if there's anything that warrants further discussion or clarification, they would go to like a Steve Goodin and seek that information.
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Question. Would these documents then be maintained in your office, the type in Exhibit 8? Do you keep a record of these ongoing?
Answer. I'm not certain if they archive that information or not, quite honestly. I don't believe they do, but I don't have any firsthand knowledge of what the disposition or destruction of that particular document or how long it's archived.
Question. I don't have the actual transcript from when Mr. Ruff had been on TV last week, but he had said something to the effect that this happened because someone queued something in wrong into the computer.
That isn't what occurred here; is that correct? You guys didn't put the wrong word into a computer?
Answer. I don't know what context when he said that, but the words that we put into the computer are the words that they provided to us. So I don't really know——
Question. So if they didn't give you the right information, you weren't going to be able to—sort of garbage in, garbage out type of situation?
Answer. That's exactly right.
Ms. COMSTOCK. I believe that's all I have at this time.
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Mr. Lu. I want to thank you for coming in today. I really don't have a lot of questions. I know Majority counsel and I can spend a lot more time talking about whether I can ask the questions than the time it will take to ask them, but my understanding of the rules is that nothing prevents the Minority from switching counsel halfway through. It is unfortunate it happened. I apologize to you. I just have a couple of questions.
EXAMINATION BY MR. LU:
Question. I think you have said that the job of your office is to basically catalogue the Presidency. I'm not sure that was your word, but to basically inventory, be an inventory of audio and video information about the Presidency; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And I believe you also said that it is not your job or your office's job to edit the video or audiotapes?
Answer. That's correct, we don't do any editing.
Question. And you also said that you knew of no instance during your time where a tape was altered, doctored, edited, whatever words you want to use?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And I believe you also said that had there been such an event, you would have heard about it; isn't that correct?
Page 1418 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 18 Of 22
Answer. That's correct.
Question. What would you have done if you had found one of the people that worked for you had done that, had edited a tape or altered a tape without your permission or without permission from somebody higher up?
Answer. Well, that has never happened. But the action that I would have taken, obviously, I would have reported that through my chain of command, who is Colonel Simmons, who in turn would have, I'm sure, informed his boss in the operational chain of command, the directorate of the White House Military Office, and I'm also sure that we would have taken proper disciplinary actions to that individual that did such a thing, because, clearly, that is out of our charter and not part of our mission.
Question. It is not standard operating procedure?
Answer. It is not.
Question. I believe you also said that after 60 days tapes are turned over to the National Archives; is that correct?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. And was that the practice before January 20th, 1993, before President Clinton took office?
Page 1419 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 18 Of 22
Answer. I believe that has been the normal practice. I really don't know. Quite honestly, I have been recently asked that question about, how long do we keep tapes, and was informed about 2 months' worth is what we keep on hand.
Question. Do you have any understanding or any knowledge as to what the National Archives does with the tapes after a President leaves office and after a Presidential library is created?
Answer. Not direct knowledge. But my understanding of that is that they are turned over to the Presidential library, or if that President wants, that library is put in place.
Question. Is it your understanding they actually physically turn over the tapes, or do they make a copy for themselves and turn over a copy? Or do you have any understanding of that at all?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. One thing you just alluded to, I asked you about the procedure before January 20th, 1993. Do you have any knowledge as to how the process for filming or recording events has changed from President Bush to President Clinton?
Answer. My understanding is that it hasn't changed at all. I do believe we have been filming or videotaping Presidents for about 40 years. Actually, the White House Communications Agency has picked that mission up in '94. Prior to that, it belonged to the Navy Imaging Command, who was under operational control of the White House Military Office.
Page 1420 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 18 Of 22
But I believe the practices and procedures have been the same for a very long time.
Question. And when you say the practices and procedures, do you also mean the practices and procedures for the retaining of videotapes or audiotapes?
Answer. That is correct.
Question. How far back does your office keep logs of tapes?
Answer. I believe we have a video database or archive system that has information all the way back to '89. I have not personally seen it, but I do believe that is how far back it goes. And the audio data base goes back to '93. They are two independent systems.
Question. So for the videotape log, is that something that you or someone in your office could easily search?
Answer. It could be searched, yes.
Question. Going back to 1989?
Answer. That is my understanding.
Mr. Lu. I have no further questions.
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Ms. COMSTOCK. I just have a few more questions.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Is there any editing equipment in your offices, that you know of?
Answer. We do have an editing capability. And when I say we don't do any editing, that was in response, in reference to Presidential tapes, video and audiotapes.
But we do do, like, for instance, what we call a news summary tape. If a lot of the different networks may have captured different—have an event or a segment on the President, our individuals in the master control facility will make a tape, a composite tape of those various news summaries. Instead of showing 30-minute segments from NBC, CBS, CNN, they will go through and edit that to just capture what is pertinent or relative to the President, put it on a composite tape, and make that available, if it's requested.
Question. And one other thing I wanted to ask about was communications from Air Force One or Air Force Two. Your office handles those communications; is that correct?
Answer. The communications infrastructure systems on Air Force One really belongs to the 89th Air Wing, not to the White House Communications Agency. However, there are some of the systems on board that aircraft that come into the White House Communications Agency's network or systems to be processed. They can also go independent.
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But if—for the ones that come through our agency, if it is for the President, they would handle it just like they do the calls if they were in the White House or out on a trip site in California or anywhere else.
Question. Has anyone ever asked your office, for purposes of document responses or any directives you have gotten from the Counsel's Office, to check on any communications records from Air Force One?
Answer. When I mentioned earlier I was working with Lisa Brown from the VP Counsel's Office for records and Cheryl Mills had directed me to her, we provided that information or that feedback. I send a log, a signal activities report, that is a composite. It doesn't make any difference if it is in the plane. That same information would be gathered in that same log. There isn't an independent log WHCA keeps for calls processed off the airplane.
Recently I was asked about logs specifically that were made on the airplane, and basically I told them they needed to go to the 89th to get that. I believe that was the grand jury. And also I believe when I was deposed by the Senate they also asked that question. I'm pretty sure they did.
Question. I don't have another copy of this. This is an April 18, 1997, letter that we had sent to the White House where, in request number 43, we had asked for a check of certain phone calls from Air Force One to the following numbers.
There is a list of numbers between October 22nd and November 5th, 1996, and actually, in particular, if this helps to put it in context, these were phone numbers in connection with calls that had been made to Warren Meddoff, who had had some discussions with Harold Ickes while he was on Air Force One.
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Do you know if anyone in your office has ever been asked about any type of phone calls or messages in connection with any matters related to Mr. Meddoff or Air Force One records?
I am trying to make it broad, so in case there's something——
Answer. I don't recall this specific request, but I was just talking about, if a request of this nature came in, I really would think the White House Military Office would have sent that to the 89th Air Wing, not to the White House Communications Agency.
Question. So that might bypass you and go directly from the military office to the 89th Air Wing?
Answer. That is a possibility, because on Air Force One there is an operator on board, and that's probably where it would go. There is a possibility that the call was placed from Air Force One through the White House Communications Agency, and at that time we may have had some information pertinent to that. But I don't recall anybody asking that specifically.
Question. So if someone were to do a thorough check of records then, your office would be a possible source of information to find out if calls actually had been made through WHCA?
Answer. But we would only have information for the last 60 days.
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Question. Okay. So any records for phone calls back in 1996 would not be available?
Answer. No.
Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. I think he has already testified, too, that it would only be the President's calls.
The WITNESS. That's correct.
Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. He would not have staff members.
The WITNESS. The Presidential log that we keep would only be for the President. Other calls, individuals that would generate a call, originate a call from Air Force One, we would not put it on our Presidential log.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. Do you know if the 89th Air Wing's records are kept in any different way, if they would still be available?
Answer. I'm not certain, but I think they destroy theirs immediately after the flight. The reason we keep them are, really, if there are call problems, network problems, as a management tool.
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In their case, once that mission or flight is over with, it's over. They are not going to process a pending call, because it is no longer a part of that platform. If it is infrastructure related or a network problem, if it is not isolated to the aircraft, there is really no reason for them to keep historical documentation. So I would assume that they don't. That is an assumption.
EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. And to your knowledge, are any of those calls or anything like that ever taped or recorded in any way?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. And do you know of any other types of logs or records that were kept of those type of calls from Air Force One?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Are you aware of any other type of video or audio records that have not been brought to light in these past few weeks that——
Mr. Lu. Be careful what you say right now.
The WITNESS. Not that I'm aware of.
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EXAMINATION BY MS. COMSTOCK:
Question. This was in a press briefing sometime in 1993, Dee Dee Myers had indicated the President did some type of dictating of notes. Do you have any knowledge of anything ever being processed through your office as Presidential dictation or anything like that?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever heard of any type of, you know, Dictaphone or sort of audio records that the President himself is keeping of any events?
Answer. No. There might have been a request to borrow a cassette recorder or something, but I have no knowledge of any records that are kept or anything like that.
Question. When people request any equipment from your office, is there a log kept of that, like of who requests some type of recording equipment or to have some type of, you know, custody of some type of equipment?
Answer. No, because there are very few individuals that we would give our equipment to, actually loan our equipment to, and there aren't any records that I am aware of.
Question. And you have no knowledge of the President asking for any type of recording equipment from your office?
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Answer. To be quite honest, I don't even recall that ever even happening, but the possibility of it happening is there. I just know if the President was to ask, he would get it, but I don't ever know of him asking.
Ms. COMSTOCK. If I can take a minute and go off the record.
[Off the record.]
Ms. COMSTOCK. Okay. I believe that is all I have. I would like to thank you very much, Mr. Smith. I know you have had a rough couple of weeks.
Mr. Lu. I'm sorry.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Let me just finish this.
I know you had a rough couple weeks and I appreciate you coming in here and very candidly and forthright telling us what went on, and I appreciate your recollection of events. I think the record will reflect it is a clear recollection of events, which is something which is welcomed and sometimes we don't always get, so I want to just thank you and we appreciate your time and effort.
Mr. Lu. I won't keep you here too much longer. Just one more question.
EXAMINATION BY MR. LU:
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Question. In response to a question from Ms. Comstock, I believe you said that your office does have editing equipment, and you can do composite tapes. My understanding is the tapes that have been turned over to this committee and to the Senate have been composite tapes, you know, fragments pulled from a wide variety of tapes. Did your office create those composite tapes?
Answer. They did.
Question. They created all the composite tapes turned over to these committees?
Answer. I have no knowledge of anybody else doing it but we didn't do the editing of the originals. Actually what they did is took the Betamax original tape, uploaded it to an avid computer system, and——
Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. A-V-I-D.
The WITNESS. The acronym, okay. A-V-I-D, it is a corporation. And then they downloaded to a VHS tape and they have done that for the purpose of this request of the White House Counsel's Office.
EXAMINATION BY MR. LU:
Question. So what is on the tapes that were turned over to this committee and to the Senate were what your office found when it was doing searches over all the tapes?
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Answer. It is what we were directed to put on the tapes from the White House Counsel's Office to provide, but it is, you know, from the actual Betamax tape.
Question. With no other alteration for editing, doctoring or anything like that?
Answer. That is correct.
Ms. COMSTOCK. And I would like to clarify the record in case there are any future problems with tapes or things that didn't show up. Everything that you were asked to put on tapes by the Counsel's Office were put on tapes; is that correct.
The WITNESS. That is correct.
MS. COMSTOCK. So if something is not on there, it is because you were not asked to put it on there; is that correct?
The WITNESS. That is correct.
Mr. Lu. That is all I have. I want to thank you as well and echo the comments of Majority counsel. I know this has not been a fun experience for you but we do appreciate your time and your effort for coming in here today.
The WITNESS. Thank you.
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[Whereupon, at 7:10 p.m., the deposition was adjourned.]
[The deposition exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 458 TO 480 HERE
[The deposition of Colonel Joseph Simmons follows:]
Executive Session
| Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, |
| U.S. House of Representatives, |
| Washington, DC. |
DEPOSITION OF: COLONEL JOSEPH SIMMONS
| Saturday, October 18, 1997 |
The deposition in the above matter was held in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:08 a.m.
Appearances:
Staff Present for the Government Reform and Oversight Committee: James C. Wilson, Senior Investigative Counsel; Miki White, Investigative Counsel; Butch Hodgson, Investigative Counsel; David Bossie, Oversight Coordinator; Barbara Comstock, Chief Investigative Counsel; Andrew McLauhlin, Minority Counsel; and Kristi Remington, Investigative Counsel.
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For MR. SIMMONS:
LT. COL. JOHN SPARKS, ESQ.
Deputy Legal Advisor
National Security Council
Washington, D.C.
Mr. WILSON. Good morning, Colonel Simmons. On behalf of the members of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, I thank you and appreciate you being here today. This proceeding is known as a deposition. The persons transcribing the proceedings are House reporters and notary publics, and I will now request that the reporter place you under oath, please.
THEREUPON, COLONEL JOSEPH SIMMONS, a witness, was called for examination by Counsel, and after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. WILSON. For the record, I would like to note those present at the beginning of this deposition. My name is Jim Wilson. I am a Senior Majority Counsel for the committee. I am accompanied today by Miki White and Butch Hodgson. Appearing on behalf of the Minority is Andrew McLaughlin. The deponent, Colonel Simmons, is represented by John Sparks.
Although this proceeding is being held in a somewhat informal atmosphere, because you have been placed under oath, your testimony here today has the same force and effect as if you were testifying before the committee or in a courtroom. If I ask you about conversations you have had in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words used in that conversation or conversations, you may state that you are unable to recall those exact words and then give me the gist or substance of any such conversation to the best of your recollection.
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If you recall only part of a conversation or only part of an event, please give me your best recollection of those conversations or events. If I ask you whether you have any information about a particular subject and you have overheard other persons conversing with each other about that subject or have seen correspondence or documentation about that subject, please tell me that you do have such information and indicate the source from which you have derived such knowledge.
Before I begin the questioning, I want to give you some brief background about the investigation and your appearance here. Pursuant to its authority under House rules X and XI of the House of Representatives, the committee has engaged in a wide-ranging review of the possible political fund-raising improprieties and possible violations of law.
Pages 2 through 4 of House Report 105–139 summarize the investigation as of June 19, 1997, and describe new matters which have arisen in the course of the investigation. Pages 4 through 11 of the report explain the background of the investigation. All questions related either directly or indirectly to these issues are questions which have a tendency to make the existence of any pertinent fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence are proper.
Pursuant to the committee's rules, you are allowed to have an attorney present to advise you of your rights. Any objection raised during the course of the deposition shall be stated for the record. If the witness is instructed not to answer a question or otherwise refuses to answer a question, Minority and Majority counsel will confer to determine whether the objection is proper. If Majority and Minority counsel agree that the question is proper, the witness will be asked to answer the question.
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If an objection is not withdrawn, the Chairman or a Member designated by the Chairman may decide whether the objection is proper. No later than 5 days after your testimony is transcribed and you have been notified that your transcript is available, you may submit suggested changes to the Chairman. We have generally been able to turn the transcripts around fairly quickly and you will be notified, presumably at the beginning of the week about the transcript and we will make arrangements for a review of the transcript at that time.
The committee staff may make any typographical or technical changes requested by you. Substantive changes must be accompanied by a letter requesting the change or changes and a statement of reasons for the proposed change. A letter requesting substantive changes or modifications or clarifications must be signed by the deponent. Any substantive changes shall be included as an appendix to the transcript, conditioned upon your signing of the transcript. Do you understand everything we have gone over so far?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. WILSON. I will be asking you questions concerning the subject matter of our investigation. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. WILSON. If you don't understand a question, please say so and I will either rephrase or repeat the question. Do you understand that you should tell me if you don't understand my question?
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The WITNESS. I do.
Mr. WILSON. The reporter will be taking down everything we say, and will make a written report of the deposition. Therefore, you are asked to please give verbal and audible answers. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. WILSON. If you can't hear me, which I don't think will be a problem in this small room, please say so and I will repeat the question. Do you understand that?
The WITNESS. Yes, I do.
Mr. WILSON. It is my understanding you are here voluntarily and not as a result of a subpoena; is that correct?
The WITNESS. I have not seen a subpoena.
Mr. WILSON. Do you have any questions about the deposition or these proceedings before we begin?
The WITNESS. No, I do not.
Mr. WILSON. Now is an appropriate time, if anybody has a statement or any type of questions or clarifications, now would be a good time to put those on the record.
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Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I will make my usual comment that pursuant to House Rule XI(2)(k), objections are as to province of the full committee, not merely the Chairman to resolve. Accordingly, any such objections are appealed to the full committee. That is my only comment. Thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Colonel Simmons, could you please state your full name for the record?
Answer. My name is Joseph Jacob Simmons, IV.
Question. What is your current position?
Answer. I am the Commander of the White House Communications Agency.
Question. And what is your current rank in the Armed Forces?
Answer. I am a colonel in the United States Army.
Question. If you could, just provide a very brief professional history over the course of the last 10 years.
Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. It might make more sense to just give a brief capsulated history beginning from the end.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. Yes, if you could.
Answer. I went back to 1987 and I drew a blank. Well, I enlisted in the Army in October of 1969. I had entered it on delayed entry program, which started in September, but everything correlates to the day you get paid and that was October, so I went to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, and, also, advanced individual training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, and this was the height of sort of the Vietnam era, and after 8 weeks of basic training and 8 weeks of AIT, I felt that there was a little bit more to it than going over Vietnam right away, so I decided I would apply for officer candidate school, and I was accepted. And I went to the officer candidate program at Fort Benning, and when I arrived there, they were deciding to reduce the number of officers.
I guess the Army had been commissioning 19,000 every year, and so they offered me an option to revert back to my enlisted rank and be assigned anywhere or go to this program. And I highlight this program because it was unique. Usually, when you went to officer candidate school, it was 24 weeks, and you wouldn't make it, but this one they decided that they were going to use us as an experimental group and they recruited TAC officers from various locations, and there were 288 of us and only 88 were commissioned. They washed out 200.
It was very rigorous physically and academically. I finished in the top ten of my class, and I could have been an infantry officer, but I was able to select Signal Corp, so I have been in the Signal Corp. And after I was commissioned, I was assigned to the Washington area at Fort Belvoir. And subsequent to that assignment, I went overseas to Germany.
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I have had a total of 4 years—four tours overseas, in Europe, in 11 years. I have been a platoon leader, a company commander, operations officer, and battalion XO, battalion commander, and brigade commander. I have attended commander all staff college and also the senior service college, Army War College at Carlisle barracks.
When I was wasn't in Europe, in the field, I was back here either attending school, military school or graduate school. I have a Masters Degree in computer science, and I have been assigned on various staffs. I have worked in the Defense Communications Agency, which is now the Defense Information Systems Agency, DISA, and I have worked at the Defense Intelligence Agency as a computer systems analyst, and those are basically the tours that I have had here.
I was selected, nominated for this command by the Army. There were five Army officers and three Air Force officers, and we went through an interview process, and after that I was selected to command in October of 1994.
Question. What is the current title of your position?
Answer. The current title is Commander of the White House Communications Agency.
Question. And you just referred to your current command, that is the one you went to in October of '94?
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Answer. That is correct.
Question. Okay. Other than your attorney, who have you discussed this deposition with, if anybody?
Answer. My deposition?
Question. Yes.
Answer. Just my attorney.
Question. Have you had any discussions with Senate or House of Representatives staff prior to appearing here today?
Answer. Yes, I have.
Question. Who have you had discussions with?
Answer. I believe it was—they were staffers at Representative—Senator Thompson's committee, Senate Governmental Affairs Committee.
Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. To make it clear, discussions or previous depositions?
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
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Question. I was about to ask. Have you been deposed by the Senate committee?
Answer. I was deposed at that time.
Question. If you could, I don't want to sort of dissect this with too fine a scalpel right now, but if you could please just give me a brief overview of—and I will refer to White House Communications by its acronym, WHCA, if you could provide a brief overview of the size and duties of WHCA.
Answer. Okay. The White House Communications Agency is a joint agency. All five services are represented. When I say that, including the Coast Guard. It consists right now of 853 people. Our mission is to provide telecommunications support, and we further define information systems, services technology, which is very comprehensive, to the President, Vice President, National Security Council, Senior White House staff and the Secret Service, and others, as deemed related by the White House Military Office.
Question. How many individuals work in the Audio Visual Unit?
Answer. I don't know the exact number. I couldn't tell you right now. I would say roughly 80 some personnel.
Question. And where is the location, or locations, of Audio Visual Unit or functions?
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Answer. They have a location in the Old Executive Office Building, Room 85, and, also, at my headquarters, which is Anacostia Naval Station, Building 399.
Question. Where is your office located?
Answer. I have two offices, one in the Old Executive Office Building, Room 592, and then my main office, I will say, is over in Building 399 at the headquarters.
Question. Who works on a regular basis at the office, your office in the Old Executive Office Building?
Answer. Mr. Steve Smith does. He is Chief of Operations.
Question. Is Mr. Smith a civilian?
Answer. Yes, he is a GS–15.
Question. Do the two of you share a single office?
Answer. No. In 592, I have an office that is there, that is reserved for me. I have meetings that I have to attend and it gives me a place to hold those meetings when I come to what we call the 18-acre complex. I never really counted it or measured it and I don't know if it is 18 acres, but that is what it is known by.
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Question. Where is Mr. Smith located?
Answer. Mr. Smith's office is in the same room area, but he has a separate office.
Question. Do any other individuals use that office on a regular basis?
Answer. Right now, yes, I have what we call a Director of the Customer Support, Lieutenant Colonel Tom Carr, C-A-R-R.
Question. And what is his function?
Answer. He is in charge of our customer service director. In other words, he is the one that monitors customer service support and obtains feedback for us about how we are doing our job. It is a brand new director.
Question. How long has he been in that position?
Answer. As of August of this year.
Question. As of August of 1997?
Answer. 1997.
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Question. Was there anybody fulfilling the function that Mr. Carr now fills or a similar function prior to his coming on in August of '97?
Answer. Yes, I had an office downstairs on the fourth floor of the Old Executive Office Building that is a customer service area and we decided to formalize it and make it a directorate, because we believed it was key to us improving the service that we provide.
Question. And if you could just give me a little bit of background on what you mean when you say customer service, please?
Answer. Well, we provide information technology services to the people that I delineated before, so we are in the service business, and so we have tried to adopt some of a business approach and apply it to a military hierarchy. We are still predominately a military organization. I have six civilians assigned in my organization of those 853. But we have initiated this redesign effort in order to improve our service, and we felt that one of the things that was missing was how we were doing, and we needed to gain feedback from the people that we provide services to, and it is just a matter of trying to improve our efficiency and processes, which I think, and believe, are very important, especially with the way, as dynamic as technology is today.
Question. You mentioned that there are six civilians assigned?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Who are the six civilians?
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Answer. All right. Mr. Steve Smith is one of them. He is a GS–15. Mrs. Carla Hawkins, she is the head of the Resource and Management Directorate. She is a GS–15. Doctor—I will just put J as his initial, Suarez, S-U-A-R-E-Z. He is head of our Quality Management Directorate. He is a GS–14. Mr. Julian J-U-L-I-A-N, Gitlin, G-I-T-L-I-N. He is a GS–14. He is an electrical engineer. Mr. Dave Ruble, R-U-B-L-E, he is a GS–13, and I have got one more. And Mr. Alan Hynes, H-Y-N-E-S, he is a GS–15.
Question. And where are those individuals located? You don't need to be specific in terms of office, but just, you know, in the White House complex or somewhere else?
Answer. Okay. Mr. Smith has two offices, just like myself; one in the Old Executive Office Building and also one in Building 399. Miss Hawkins is in Building 399 at the Naval Station—Anacostia Naval Station, and Mr. Ruble, Mr. Gitlin, and Mr. Hynes, and Suarez are also there. They are located in Building 399.
Question. Who supervises the civilian employees?
Answer. My deputy commander will supervise some. I have a chart with me, which I can show you, which would probably be a little bit better.
Question. Actually, that might be very helpful and cut through my questions. Do you by any chance have a separate copy for Minority counsel?
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Answer. I certainly do.
Question. Thank you very much. If I may have this, I will mark this as an exhibit and we will put it in the record. The chart is marked as JS–1.
[Simmons Deposition Exhibit No. JS–1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of deposition on p. 984.]
The WITNESS. As I stated, you see that Mr. Smith is in our Executive Office. He is the Chief of Operations. Okay. Miss Hawkins, she is the Resource and Management Directorate. My Deputy/Chief of Staff is Colonel Campbell. Under the old organization, he was a deputy commander and I still think he should be because when I travel—when the President travels, one of the two of us always has to be with him so we sort of have a co-relationship. But in this new organization, we defined it as also a Chief of Staff so it is a Deputy/Chief of Staff.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. That is the same person as Chief of Staff, that is also the Deputy box.
The WITNESS. Yes, and that is Colonel Ken Campbell. He is in the United States Air Force. He is a full colonel. As you can see, the line that goes alongside here, these are my input directorates and these are all the skills and services that I provide. I have also on the other side my output directorates, as far as the taskings and requirements that I receive and then you will see my customer service report that provides me feedback.
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The input directorates—so Colonel Campbell would supervise Ms. Hawkins, who is head of the Resource Management Directorate and he would also supervise the Program Management Director, which is Mr. Alan Hynes. The remaining people are all military in the organization.
EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:
Question. In terms of the civilian employees, who was responsible for hiring them?
Answer. I am responsible for hiring them. I have to go thorough—in conjunction with DISA, see, as far as personnel and management and manpower, I have to do that and that is the Defense Information Systems Agency. They give me the authorization, but I go through the competition phase and so forth and the interviews and then I decide. I have a panel convene and they make recommendations to me, I will say that, and then I am the one that has the final call.
Question. With respect to Mr. Steven Smith, how was he hired?
Answer. He had to compete for the job. He had worked in the agency roughly 8 years. He was a Chief Warrant Officer, United States Army, had a breadth of experience, worked mainly in operations in the Operations Directorate, with the agency, so he was—he competed and we had to submit it through DISA and the competition and his name came back when he decided to retire, and he was selected.
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Question. Would you characterize WHCA as an entirely apolitical organization?
Answer. Absolutely.
Question. Were any of the individuals now employed by WHCA—would you characterize any of them as political appointees?
Answer. None of the WHCA people were political appointees.
Question. Okay. As part of the hiring process, is the political affiliation of any of the individuals—the civilian individuals hired, was that ever determined?
Answer. We asked the question, and I will say that of the military, when we assessed people and interviewed them for a position in our organization, and we asked them—it is very important to us because regardless of who is in administration, we feel that we have to do our job, and so that is a question that we asked the military. I have not sat on the board, you know. I usually get the recommendation. I have not sat on a board that has convened and when we hired a civilian and know if that is one of the questions that was asked.
Question. When you came to your current position in August of 1994——
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Answer. It was October.
Question. October, I apologize.
Question. Did you interview with any nonmilitary personnel?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And who was involved in the process, the nonmilitary personnel?
Answer. It was the Director of the White House Military Office.
Question. And who is that?
Answer. At that time, it was Mr. Al Maldon, M-A-L-D-O-N.
Question. And was he the only nonmilitary individual involved in the process of bringing you to the position you now hold in October of 1994?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Did you receive any recommendations for your position, for the current position?
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Answer. I received recommendations from military members, I also know that I received recommendations from one—one recommendation I know outside was a Mr. Leroy Borden, who heads the White House Transportation Agency.
Question. Is Mr. Borden military personnel?
Answer. He is a retired military. He is a civilian right now.
Question. I just wanted to go into a little bit more of the sort of logistical aspects where you are located and where the offices are. You already told me where your offices are.
Question. Does Mr. Alan Sullivan have an office in the Old Executive Office Building?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. What is Mr. Sullivan's title or position currently?
Answer. He is the Director of the White House Military Office, and I sort of confused the terms because I know he is not an assistant to the President, but I believe he is Deputy Assistant to the President, and Director of the White House Military Office is his full title.
Question. And how would you characterize his relationship with WHCA?
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Answer. He provides operational oversight of my agency.
Question. I'm just trying to get a sense of the chain of command.
Answer. Sure.
Question. You have provided for us Exhibit JS–1, which gives us a very, I think, clear indication of where everybody fits into the WHCA picture. If you could, just give us a brief overview of the overall chain of command of people that have relationships with WHCA that are outside of the chart that you have provided for us this morning.
Answer. Right. Okay. I have what you call a dual chain of command. I have an operational chain of command and the head of that is Mr. Alan Sullivan. He provides operational oversight, and through that chain of command, is where I receive my taskings.
Now, not every tasking comes through his office, and that is why we use the term ''oversight''. Mr. Sullivan and I converse numerous times over the course of the day, so I am in almost daily contact with him. My missions are generated from the Travel and Scheduling Office and they interface with my organization, and there are functions—missions that will evolve that Mr. Sullivan will be aware of because I am just one part of a huge organization of the White House Military Office. That is the operational side.
The administrative oversight is a Department of Defense chain, and the first one in that chain is the Director of the Defense Systems Agency and that is Lieutenant General Dave Kelley, K-E-L-L-E-Y and then he reports to Assistant Secretary of Defense for Command Control Communications and Intelligence.
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Question. Just focusing for a moment on the operational side of the organization, to whom does Mr. Sullivan report?
Answer. He reports to the Director of Management and Administration.
Question. And——
Answer. Who is an assistant to the President.
Question. Who is that individual?
Answer. Right now it is Ms. Virginia Apuzzo, A-P-U-Z-Z-O.
Question. And has she been in that position for the past year?
Answer. No, sir.
Question. Who was in the position before her?
Answer. Ms. Jodie Torkelson, T-O-R-K-E-L-S-O-N.
Question. When did Ms. Torkelson leave that position?
Answer. She left August—I guess it would be 30 July, 31 July, of 1997.
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Question. Okay. Now, you mentioned that you have many, many conversations with Mr. Sullivan. Who else works with Mr. Sullivan that you have regular contact with?
Answer. His Chief of Staff, which now is a Colonel Tim Milbrath, M-I-L-B-R-A-T-H, and I also work with a lieutenant colonel of the Marine Corp, Greg Raths, R-A-T-H-S, and I also interface with a Ms. Danny, D-A-N-N-Y, Donnelly, D-O-N-N-E-L-L-Y. That is Mr. Sullivan's executive assistant or secretary.
Question. Just going back for a moment to Mr. Smith, who is Chief of Operations, why was that position created?
Answer. The position has always existed—it was created because we believed that in order for us to redesign or transform ourselves from an organization that would be ready for the changes in the 21st Century that he should be the Chief of Operations and have oversight of what we call the output directorates, and the lines of communication were not clearly defined under the old organization, and there was not what I thought was sufficient dialogue among the units, and, now with the dynamic change that technology is undergoing, and especially in the field of information systems, all systems are integrated and we decided that this has been the result of a 2-year project, and decided that this organization would be the one that would best suit us, and that we could also adapt it to the military hierarchy.
So he is in charge of outputs, and then my Chief of Staff or Deputy is in charge of inputs, and it is sort of a cleaner situation. We had about 16 entities once before and we condensed them, so we are trying to become more efficient.
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Next Hearing Segment(19)