White House Compliance with Committee Subpoenas

Segment 19 Of 22     Previous Hearing Segment(18)   Next Hearing Segment(20)

SPEAKERS       CONTENTS       INSERTS

 Page 1453       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. WILSON. Just to change the subject entirely. Just so you know, Ms. Barbara Comstock has just entered the room, she is with the Majority staff, for the record.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Who else do you meet with or speak with within the White House in order to perform your job?

    Answer. I don't really understand that question.

    Question. It is a pretty broad question.

    Answer. I speak to everybody I see.

    Question. You mentioned a number of people. I mean, if you can characterize on a regular basis people that you interact with within the White House complex in order to perform your job, and I am leaving aside a one-shot phone call to ask somebody a question, but are there other individuals that you have a regular professional relationship with within the White House complex?

    Answer. As the commander, I occasionally talk to other members of the staff. I would talk to the director or management administration, as needed. I will also talk to the head of the Office of Administration, who is Mr. Mike Malone, as needed, but my main interface with the White House is through Mr. Sullivan. Now, I don't want to give you the impression that I don't know other people, but as far as really discussing anything that relates to my mission, those are the people that I talk to, but mainly it is Mr. Sullivan and his staff.

 Page 1454       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Who from among the White House staff actually provides tasking or directives to WHCA?

    Answer. The Scheduling in Advance Office. That is where the taskings and directorates come and they come to, even under the old organization, the travel support director, which is headed by Lieutanant Colonel Nate Smith. The taskings are involved from there, you know, the President has a schedule and so forth.

    Now, there are also routine taskings that occur that are a little bit different. Now taskings, as far as missions have pertained, have taken us out of town, and keeping us—and then tasks that relate to just things that happen on the 18-acre complex and then taskings that relate to in-town missions, all have a little different spin.

    Question. In the White House scheduling staff, is there an individual that is designated as the liaison with WHCA?

    Answer. In the scheduling.

    Question. Yes, and I am just trying to get at who is most often or usually is——

    Answer. Dan Rosenthal.

    Question. Okay. And are there other individuals on the White House staff that are sort of designated as the people that deal with WHCA?

 Page 1455       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. I guess I don't really understand the question.

    Question. Just as with the individual you just identified, are there other individuals in other offices who have, as their primary function—or as one of their functions, the relationship in dealing with WHCA?

    Answer. There is an element of the national security element that we deal with, right now it is Captain Kevin Kosgriff. I have an element that resides in the National Security Council's Situation Room, an eight-person element there, and they interface with the National Security Council. I have an Audio Visual Unit, what we call Event Productions, that interfaces with various members of the staff. It could be the White House Press Office. It could be the President's Aide, Steven Goodin. It could be head of Social, Sara Farnsworth. That is how a lot of the taskings for the audio visual, as it relates to an event that occurs on the White House complex, come in.

    Question. Sort of breaking that down, and sort of looking at two separate elements there. With Mr. Goodin, Steven Goodin, what is his relationship with WHCA?

    Answer. Well, he knows my camera crew. That is how he interfaces with them, and when we travel, I interface with him regularly, because there are certain things that he will bring to my attention that need to be done or that he would like, et cetera, telephone calls, and maybe the President will want to speak to a group of people, conference a call or he has a list of calls he wants to be made, special requests.

 Page 1456       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. And I will get into this a little bit later, but does Mr. Goodin exercise supervisory authority over camera crews?

    Answer. I don't understand, when you say supervisory.

    Question. Can he make them start or stop or leave a room?

    Answer. Yes.

    Question. Is he the only individual that exercises that type of authority or are there other people on the White House staff?

    Answer. I am told that there are others.

    Question. Do you know who those are?

    Answer. I have been told by my camera crew that Sara Farnsworth will.

    Question. I probably will return to this later, but while we are going down this direction, in terms of a camera crew that is going to—that had been tasked to record footage of a certain event, what type of written or verbal tasking do such camera crews usually get?

    Answer. There is a planning document, I understand, that I have seen, that is generated from the Social Director's Office, and Sara Farnsworth, and usually it lists an event, the time, and there is a portion of it that relates to WHCA, whether a podium is required, camera crew.

 Page 1457       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. And just so that we all can get a sense of how this works, if a crew is requested to record a certain event or certain events, and they have a written tasking of some sort, how fluid or how concrete is it for them to actually record what their tasking is? What I am trying to get at is it seems like there is an override here and just from an employment perspective, if you were a videographer and you were trying to make a recording of something, you have been asked to do that, you wouldn't want naturally to respond to 50 different people telling you to do your job in a different way. I mean, how would you characterize the relationship between the camera people and White House staff, if you can do that?

    Answer. That would be very difficult to characterize because I am not a member of the camera crew. I can only tell you what I have observed on trips, and I know that Steve Goodin will say I need you to do this and he will talk to the camera crew. If I am there, he will say something to me, but the relationship is such that things are so fluid and he knows that I am concerned about other things on a trip, that he will direct the camera crew to come in and film an event.

    Question. How are the camera crews organized? Are there certain sort of crew leaders, who are in charge of groups?

    Answer. Yes. Well, there is one person that is in charge of the camera crew and that is Chief Petty Officer McGrath.

    Question. Have you ever received any complaints from any of the—Chief Petty Officer McGrath or any other camera crew operators regarding overriding of what they regard as their mission?

 Page 1458       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Well, to answer your question, no, they have never complained. They enjoy, and I will say that, it is a very tough job. It is demanding because it's so fluid. The mission that they have is that the camera crew sees the President as the Commander in Chief, and Head of State and Chief executive, and so President Clinton is always President Clinton. So any time that he speaks, if the event is an open event, they are there to record it, there are other people there to record it, and when I say open press event, they usually align themselves with the press. You will see them mixed in with our press and they will perform their mission. And when he is speaking, they will tape, videotape his portion and maybe a few pieces of others, but primarily focusing on the President.

    Most of the tapes will probably be focused on the President because they are supposed to record his activities and eventually these activities are archived. Then there are other events, closed events, of which the press is not allowed, I will say, and they will be directed by Mr. Steven Goodin or Sara Farnsworth to come in and record those events.

    Question. And in terms of the closed event, have you ever received any feedback from any of the camera crew leaders or operators or any complaints about not being able to record more than they have been recording?

    Answer. No.

    Question. Just very briefly, you mentioned that there is a relationship with the National Security Council. If you could provide an overview of the relationship between WHCA and the National Security Council?

 Page 1459       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Well, we have an element that works in the Situation Room that is responsible for the communications for the National Security Council, ensuring that it can speak to other agencies as required. There are certain elements of that, that if I talk about it any further, we would get into classified.

    Question. And I certainly don't want to get into that.

    Answer. Mainly their function is they interface with the National Security Council, when the President travels overseas. I have an office that is set up for the National Security Advisor, Mr. Berger, and so forth so he can conduct his business. When we are traveling inside the continental area, a lot of the message traffic from the White House will come from the Situation Room, which is in the National Security Council and it usually relates to foreign policy and various other issues.

    Question. Does National Security Council staff ever interact with WHCA staff relating to just the everyday filming of open and closed events involving the President?

    Answer. They are not involved in that portion at all.

    Question. Have they ever reviewed any of the material that—and I am trying to segregate material that is prepared just for NSC purposes from other material. Has NSC ever reviewed material that has been prepared by WHCA?

 Page 1460       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Before any of the—I guess if I can have a little more clarification. We deal with message traffic that is given to us from the Council, so we ensure that it gets to the right person.

    Question. Right, and that I want to stay far away from.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Do you mean the Audio Visual Unit specifically?

    Mr. WILSON. No, I don't. I am trying to be a little bit clearer on that.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Have you ever had a situation where NSC personnel have come to you and said we want to come back and review tapes or materials that involve the President being filmed in either open or closed setting?

    Answer. No.

    Question. And, again, your answer is inclusive and includes all of this, just to try to finish this line entirely. With the recent controversy over the coffee tapes, was there any NSC involvement to go back and review any of the materials that ultimately have been turned over to the media and congressional committees and the Department of Justice investigators?

 Page 1461       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. I will tell you that no one contacted me about that. And I am fairly confident that that did not occur.

    Question. If you could, please just provide an overview of the types of records that WHCA keeps track of?

    Answer. Well, we have information, services records that are mainly databases. Okay, we have message tracking in our Comm. Center, we have telephone logs that are made by our switching element, we have databases for audio tapes, databases for videotapes, and we have databases for—I guess when I said information systems, it would be any servers or mainframes that are available that reside in the White House complex.

    Question. Now just working through these, the last one is the one I understand the least and it is because of technological incompetence more than anything else. You mentioned servers or mainframes. Do the White House computer systems have some type of interface with WHCA?

    Answer. The National Security Council does.

    Question. Is it exclusively the National Security Council?

    Answer. That is correct. And I do interface with the White House network, information systems network, they call it Oasis. I do have a link there, but I don't have anything to do with their piece. I just interface with it. And that allows people that work in the Old Executive Office Building, like Ms. Apuzzo, to send me a message, an e-mail message if she should desire.

 Page 1462       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Is it fair to say that is just your linkage to the White House computer system?

    Answer. That is correct.

    Question. I am trying to determine more about the records.

    Answer. Well, records that I keep?

    Question. Or that WHCA keeps, not you?

    Answer. Well, the records would reside in those information services. The mainframe of a computer. I also have my own mainframe, a CPU, central processing unit, but now as technology improves, you are moving to more of a distributed architecture and that is where you get into the server world. Mainframes are on their way out, you know. They are big, large machines and so forth, and servers are smaller and more robust and can do a lot more things, as far as information systems technology is concerned. So they are servers instead of—in the old days, I would have had a number of mainframe computers in order to set up a local area network.

    Now, I can set them up with a server and each one of those servers reside in this network and each one of those servers has a database, so that any e-mail traffic or traffic that is sent over it, I can capture it. And, you know, it's a matter of record.

    Question. And what about, for example, e-mail traffic within the White House. If somebody in the White House sent a message to the OEOB, is that the type of information that WHCA would ultimately keep in their record?

 Page 1463       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. No, because if someone in the White House sent a message, it would reside in the White House information systems side. See, the Office of Administration has its own information systems technology element, so if someone in the White House, say the President, sent a message to the Old Executive Office Building, their system would handle it. I have my own system that interfaces with them, but I don't have—he doesn't have a computer that I put in his office to interface with me.

    Question. So is it correct to say, then, that the material that you have, and when I say you, I am using you for the global WHCA, is limited to the communications between the White House and WHCA, that particular service system?

    Answer. Yes, sir.

    Question. Okay. In terms of audio visual records, what type of records are kept by WHCA?

    Answer. Well, they have two databases that I know of; the audio tape database and the videotape database. They also have a record that when they receive a request for their service, they note the time and date and the person who requested it and so forth. That is usually a paper copy that they just fill out so they can say that we have this tasking.

    Question. Now, breaking that down for the audio tape component, what types of events, communications, or exchanges are captured in the audio tape record keeping?

 Page 1464       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. The schedule of events, if you saw the schedule of events for the President, it usually has either an open press event or a closed event. Audio tapes would be present at all open press events, and that is, I would say, when I say all, I can't just say absolutely all of them because there might be a few of them that might not have been present. But I will say normally the trend is for them to be there because when the President speaks, usually we are responsible for the public address system, and any time he speaks, it becomes a matter of record and so we record his remarks, and that is why audio tapes would be there.

    Usually, in a closed event, if he speaks and uses a public address system, I also will tape it, but dependent upon the size, if a public address system is not needed, then there will be no audio taping of that event.

    Question. And so you have characterized their events such as speeches and public events?

    Answer. Yes, sir.

    Question. And you have mentioned closed events, and I don't want to characterize these things because I certainly don't know what all of them are, but what, if you can provide sort of a very brief overview, what types of closed events you would record?

    Answer. What type of recording?

    Question. We are just thinking now of the audio.

 Page 1465       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. On the audio piece, I believe the best experts are probably my technicians that could probably tell you that.

    Question. Do you have any knowledge——

    Answer. The only thing that I can tell you, I know there are events that might take place in the Roosevelt Room, a very small crowd, it might be a pool spray where they allow the photographers to come in and go and shoot their pictures, and then they leave, and the podium is set up, and we would record the remarks the President would make and, you know, it could be a ceremony or a recognition of an individual. Various events like that occur in the East Room.

    There is usually a larger place, a larger audience and most events in the East Room are open, and I am sure there probably have been some that have been closed, but they are usually open and I think it depends upon the size of the crowd and what the press office decides, whether they want to make it open or closed. They are the ones that determine that.

    Question. So is it the press office that ultimately determines whether events will be recorded, at least the audio portion of events will be recorded?

    Answer. It is a number of people. I couldn't pin it exclusively on the press office. I know that if the tasking and the scheduling comes down to us and it says that we want you to provide a podium, a public address system, et cetera, then we will record the event, the audio portion of it.

    Answer. And who originates that tasking, it just depends. Sara Farnsworth, if we are talking about the 18 acres, the White House, that would happen. On the road all these events are determined beforehand, and we know exactly when we arrive on location that at this particular event and the podium is needed, a public address system is needed, lights are needed, et cetera.

 Page 1466       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. I suppose that which brings us here today is the release of the coffee videotapes. Do you know whether any of the coffees, Presidential coffees, were ever recorded by audio recording methods?

    Answer. No, I do not.

    Question. Who would be the person who would know that?

    Answer. Probably Staff Sergeant VanKareun, would know about that.

    Mr. BALLEN. Staff Sergeant VanKareun, V-A-N-K-A-R-E-U-N. Probably messing up his name. I don't know the spelling of his name.

    Mr. WILSON. It will be corrected by the time everything is said and done so nobody will ever know.

    The WITNESS. Sorry to do that.

    Mr. WILSON. Unless he is a deposition junkie, he may never read this.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Just so you know, the record should show that I think Ms. Comstock has VanKareun name.

 Page 1467       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. What is Staff Sergeant VanKareun's position?

    Answer. He is my NCOIC—and that is noncommissioned officer in charge—of the Event Productions Section, the section that interfaces and gets taskings that relate to the 18 acres complex that require some type of audiovisual support.

    Question. Is the command broken down between audiovisual recording and just simply audio recording?

    Answer. Yes, there is a camera crew that resides in the command as well as people that—usually the ones—the operators that work public address systems do the audio recording, because we have what you call—maybe you have seen it at rock concerts—a mix board. And they will interface with that mix board with a cassette recorder, and they will put a cassette tape in, and they will queue it with the mike, and they will run tests, and they will record that event. So usually someone that is operating the public address system would do the audio recording.

    So any time, in laymen terms, a microphone is required from us, it usually has to have some type of podium with it, and we also provide that, and there will be a mix; it could be a large mix board or a small one. In addition to that will be a cassette recorder, and so any time the President speaks, they will record.

    Question. Where are the tapes kept of the recordings?

 Page 1468       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. They are originally kept in our master control room, and then from there they go to the video archives—I mean, National Archives, I'm sorry.

    Question. And to the extent you know, how are they kept track of? How are they logged into the system?

    Answer. They have a procedure. They have a computer in the master control room which they log in all their tapes. There is a preset form that they can enter the software that they have. I believe they call it staircase—Stairs. Stairs is the software. And it allows them to enter the event date and usually to describe the event and so forth, and it is categorized in those terms.

    Question. Is the recordkeeping of the audiotapes and the audiovisual tapes integrated, or are they separate recordkeeping systems?

    Answer. They are separate recordkeeping systems. That is my understanding. I know that we can access the audio database, which we have done in this type process, and pulled up all the tapes over the last 4 years, and so forth.

    Question. We will get into this, hopefully in the not too distant future, but we all know now, through either deposition process or the media, that there was interest expressed in the audiovisual tapes and people did searches to find tapes that now have been released to this committee and to the media pertaining to the coffees.

 Page 1469       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Do you know whether anybody has ever done a search of either the recordkeeping or the tapes themselves, the audiotapes themselves, to determine whether materials in those tapes is responsive to either this committee's subpoena or Senate subpoenas or Department of Justice information requests?

    Answer. Sir, I was present when the members from the White House counsel came to master control—that is the area where the audiotaping occurs—and requested the databases for 1993, '94, '95, and '96.

    Question. And did they do any searches other than the searches of the recordkeeping? Did people actually listen to tapes?

    Answer. Oh yes. Yes. I believe the count is up to 126 audiotapes that we have provided to them.

    Question. That you have provided to the White House Counsel's Office?

    Answer. That's correct.

    Question. Do you know whether any material from those tapes is responsive to subpoenas that this committee or the Senate or the Department of Justice have issued?

    Answer. Do I know? I know what I read. I know that my people have turned over 126 audiotapes to the counsel, and I can only assume they were going to either the Department of Justice or one of the committees.

 Page 1470       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    I have not—I know that we have a strict inventory process and we inventoried them and turned over—handed chain of custody to White House counsel for videotapes and audiotapes, and I was involved in the videotaping piece.

    Question. Right. But we're talking now of just the audiotapes, not the video?

    Answer. Yes, right.

    Question. Just going back to the categories and trying to work through this, we have talked about audiovisual tapes and audiotapes. Does WHCA either take or keep photographs, still photographs?

    Answer. We do not take pictures. We develop pictures.

    Question. I was going to get to that in a minute, but maybe it is best to finish this side of it now. What is WHCA's relationship with civilian photographers?

    Answer. We develop the film that members of the White House Photographic Office take.

    Question. And why is that?

    Answer. We will have to go back in history. Roughly in 1958, the White House Communications Agency started providing photographic support, and then at that time they were military. Since they have evolved, I guess in the 1960's, '63 or '64, I am not sure, but in the early part of the sixties it became a civilian position.

 Page 1471       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    There were various legal counsel reviews, by then the Defense Communications Agency, saying that it was okay for the White House Communications Agency to develop the film taken from those pictures.

    Now I am in the Signal Corps, and we probably gave birth to the Air Force and also balloons, et cetera, and photography also used to be one of the things that resided in Signal units.

    So in considering that the White House Communications Agency started off as a White House Army Signal detachment and then went to a White House Army Signal agency, I think there is probably a tradition that has been maintained.

    So taking pictures wouldn't be out of the norm for us in those days, and developing, so forth. So I think it has just been something that has just gone on through the years.

    Question. Are civilian photographers allowed to keep their films, take them away and develop them themselves?

    Answer. The White House Photographic Office, to get—I will just tell you what I know. I know that they take pictures and they provide the film to us. The photographers are not a part of WHCA. I hope I——

    Question. No; that's specifically what I was getting at.

 Page 1472       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. We don't do any—we don't take the pictures, but we do the development of the pictures that are taken.

    Question. And I was staying away from tourist X who walks in and takes pictures and takes the camera out.

    Answer. That's right.

    Question. But in terms of civilian professional photographers, they provide their films to WHCA; WHCA develops the films and returns the hard copy of whatever has been taken to the civilian photographer?

    Answer. What they do is, they use the term called a contact sheet, which has a number of pictures, and that's what they return back to the White House office and—White House Photographic Office, and they will circle whatever pictures they want developed and so forth.

    Question. Is WHCA responsible for providing whatever is wanted from the contact sheets?

    Answer. Yes.

    Question. If it is determined that they want 27 copies of whatever picture is circled, then WHCA actually does the making of the hard copies of the photographs?

 Page 1473       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Yes, sir.

    Question. And does WHCA keep the negatives from all photographs?

    Answer. Yes, sir.

    Question. So the negatives are not actually the property of the civilian photographers?

    Answer. No, sir.

    Question. How far back does WHCA's keeping of the negatives go?

    Answer. I do not know the answer.

    Question. If it is longer than 5 or 6 years, then I don't need to know the specifics, but does WHCA keep negatives for the past, say, 5 years?

    Answer. I know that we are right now doing photo archiving, and we're trying to photo archive the negatives, because you know that if you keep a negative just in a folder, in a file, as time goes by it will deteriorate or degrade. So now our photo archiving project is to take that negative and to put it on a CD-ROM, so that it will be archived, so that it will last longer and stay for quite a while.

 Page 1474       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    I know that we have records of negatives. I do not know how far back they go, but I know that they—I have been there since '94, so '94 through the current are there, and I'm sure that prior to my taking over there is.

    But as you know, you would run out of space doing that, and that's why this photo archiving project is significant for us, so that we can archive the negatives and then not have to use all that space.

    Question. Where are the negatives now stored?

    Answer. They are now stored in my building, 399.

    Question. Do you know whether anybody has reviewed negatives for the past—over the course of the last 5 years to determine whether any of the materials contained in the negatives are responsive to the subpoenas from this committee or the Senate or the Department of Justice?

    Answer. Yes, sir, I do know that there have been two searches of that database, one initiated by the White House Press Office and one initiated by myself.

    Question. When did those searches take place?

    Answer. I don't know when the White House Press Office performed theirs. I was informed by my people that they had received requests to send certain contact sheets up and it was in relation to this whole incident. But then I decided I wanted to feel sure that we looked through all the databases, so I had my people in this area search, and it was sort of a duplication of effort, but we did it too.

 Page 1475       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Do you have an approximate time for the press office inquiry?

    Answer. I do not know it right now, sir.

    Question. Just in terms of the months?

    Answer. Oh, it would have to be—well, I don't want to say that. I don't know exactly when, because the conversation that took place—I went into the photo lab, and I asked them, and they said, sir—and they knew about—you can imagine my agency is saying what's going on, sir?

    So I went to talk to them, and they said, well, we've had several requests from the White House Press Office to send contact sheets up, and they have supposedly identified the pictures that they wanted printed, and we would also do that, and we returned them to them.

    I do not know the time frame in which those requests were made.

    Question. Was it after September 1st?

    Answer. I do not know that.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Can we go off the record for just a minutes.

 Page 1476       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    [Discussion off the record.]

    Mr. WILSON. If you could, speaking to the reporter here, could you refresh my recollection by giving me the last question that I asked of Colonel Simmons?

    [The reporter read back as requested.]

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Staying for a moment with the subject of the photographs, do you know what the recordkeeping system for photographs is?

    Answer. No, sir, I'm not familiar with it exactly. I know in general terms that most of our records in our database correlate directly to a date. That's the quickest way to retrieve anything from our databases.

    Question. Do you know whether there's any recordkeeping by name of individual for photographs?

    Answer. I do not know, sir.

    Question. Who would be the individual within the WHCA hierarchy that would know most about the recordkeeping for photographs?

 Page 1477       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. It would be a Sergeant First Class Santoro, S-A-N-T-O-R-O. He will be glad to give you a tutorial on photography.

    Question. Do you know whether WHCA has ever made copies of photographs to provide to either the House of Representatives, the Senate, or Department of Justice pursuant to subpoenas or information requests that have been sent to WHCA?

    Answer. I do not know the answer to that question.

    Question. Have you ever been asked by the White House to conduct a review of the photographs in your records?

    Answer. Yes, I have. And the reason I paused is because that has been a recent occurrence. It was a request made by my boss, Mr. Sullivan, to ensure that as a result of what has happened now, that we ensure that we review all our databases.

    And that is what caused me to go down in my photo lab and ask them, did they perform a check on their database, and they said, sir, we were told that the White House Press Office was doing that.

    See, whatever data that we have archived, they have the same data up at the White House Press Office. They have visibility of it. So you could do a retrieval on the database from the White House Photographic Office and still do the one downstairs. But I wanted to be sure that we did our part.

 Page 1478       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. BALLEN. I'm sorry, the press office or the photographic office?

    The WITNESS. Photographic office. White House Photographic Office.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Just to pursue that a little bit further, you mentioned that the rolls of film go to WHCA, the rolls of films are developed and produced into a contact sheet format and then sent—and I think I missed this—I think you said this, but where do the contact sheets go after they are produced?

    Answer. They are either, if they are not requested or not asked for—and that is why I believe you need to talk to Sergeant First Class Santoro—they are stored in a file cabinet, filing cabinets; I mean a huge area that we have in the photo lab.

    Question. And I don't want to be mysterious here, I am certainly not trying to trap anybody, I'm just trying to figure out——

    Answer. Sure.

    Question [continuing]. What the photographic office would have. It appears that if they didn't request—if somebody took 10 rolls of film from a certain event and there was not a request made by the photographic office, then they would not have any records from those rolls of film?

 Page 1479       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. The way I understand it, I'm sure there is a process, because everything, every event that my people develop, it correlates to a photographer. They can tell you which photographer took it. So there is some data entered in it.

    And I can only speak from what I have observed on trips. I have seen Mr. McNeely or Sharon Farmer or Barb McKinney; I have seen them; they have little pouches that they label when they take the film out of their cameras and put it in, and it has a date and so forth. And all that is turned in.

    Somehow there is—I'm sure there is a process, because our people can identify which photographer took it and the date it was taken and so forth.

    Question. I realize this is a question you may or may not be able to answer, because it is pretty specific, but if the recordkeeping is primarily by date and not by individual, it seems to me the only way you can determine whether individuals are in photographs is by looking at the photographs.

    I am trying to determine whether the White House photography office would have had hard copies or contact sheets or something to actually visually look at and decide whether there's material that is compliant with subpoenas or not.

    Answer. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I know that the date resides with just about everything we do. I will not—I cannot say that it is the only thing that is a part of that record. I'm sure there are other entries there, more than just a date.

 Page 1480       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. This is kind of piling on here. This is my last question on this. But do you know for a fact whether or not the White House photography office has copies of all the material that is in the WHCA archives of photographs?

    Answer. I don't know that.

    Question. So I have asked you questions about audio recordings, audiovisual recordings, and still photographs. There's a term of art that I have seen that I don't understand; it's called record communications. Do you know what that is?

    Answer. Yes, it's usually message traffic of some sort. It is a hard copy of whatever was sent. That is what you called record communications. And usually that starts—that can either be through our communications center or a facsimile machine as a form of record communications.

    Question. Now, staying away from sort of dedicated NSC types of communications, because we will not go there, what other types of record communications would WHCA keep on an ongoing basis?

    Answer. In my communications center, that would be the main focal point for record communications traffic.

    Question. But, again, my question is somewhat akin to the question I asked about e-mails between person A and person B in the White House. If someone were to use a fax machine in the White House and send a fax to somebody in Poughkeepsie, New York, there is a fax from the White House to Poughkeepsie. Is that something WHCA would keep track of?

 Page 1481       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. No.

    Question. So when you mentioned faxes, what type of faxes were you——

    Answer. Facsimile machines that I'm responsible for. There are facsimile machines throughout the White House complex that I do not have that are not part of my architecture.

    See, facsimile machines are part of a user-on, user-operated record communications traffic. That is why they were developed, so that you could send a message to anybody you wanted.

    I have that capability to fax, because when the President goes to a certain location, if we have all forms of communication, I have a van that follows him that has a facsimile capability, and it can receive fax traffic.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Is that what is known as the Road Runner?

    The WITNESS. That is the Road Runner, yes, sir.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Would you characterize these fax transmissions of all sorts? I don't want sort of classified or national security type of faxes, but this is just a fax capability to allow people to send faxes or traffic?

 Page 1482       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. I have the capability for facsimile for unclassified and classified traffic.

    Question. Do you know whether, pursuant to any of the subpoenas or document requests that have come from either the House of Representatives or the Senate or the Department of Justice, whether anybody has reviewed facsimile transmissions to determine whether they were responsive to either House, Senate, or Department of Justice document requests?

    Answer. I don't know that. But just let me explain what happens to me. Once I receive the fax traffic, I give it to the person that is identified, and they are the ones that dispose of it. If it is of a classified nature, they will return it back to me after they have read it, in some cases, not in all cases, and if they give it back to my operators, we will shred it immediately.

    Question. So what is kept on a permanent basis and what is not kept on a permanent basis?

    Answer. We don't keep fax traffic, facsimile traffic. And if you look in the buffer of your facsimile machine, I think it's limited to about 32 or 33 transactions; it depends on the size of your message and so forth. So you're not going to keep anything over the years and months or something like that.

    Question. Does WHCA keep track of telephone communications, or does WHCA record any telephone communications going into or coming out of the White House?

 Page 1483       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Yes, sir. Those communications that come through——

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Be clear. He asked you if any are recorded.

    The WITNESS. Oh, recorded. Okay, could you define ''recorded''?

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Well, preserving on an ongoing basis the materials within the communications. If somebody made a telephone call into the White House or made a phone call out of the White House, is there something in your records that one could listen to to determine what was said?

    Answer. No, I don't do that.

    Question. What do you keep?

    Answer. I have a log that is maintained, and it only pertains to the President of the United States, and that's if he uses—he elects to make a call and interfaces with my operator and has my operator place the call.

    Question. And why would the President do that?

 Page 1484       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Because Presidents don't like dialing numbers.

    Question. No; I used to work at the Department of Justice, and we had a command center, and a lot of times people didn't like to dial numbers and did the same thing. But in the Department of Justice we had our command center.

    My impression, which is seemingly wrong, is that the President would use the White House switchboard or the White House communications capability. So disabuse me of my—am I wrong or?

    Answer. No; he uses our switchboard extensively.

    Question. And it is a separate switchboard system than the White House switchboard system?

    Answer. Yes, it is. Yes, sir.

    Question. And is there any method to using one or the other?

    Answer. No, sir.

    Question. It is just whatever?

    Answer. Whatever he feels like doing.

 Page 1485       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Right, as is appropriate. And the recordkeeping of these usages, what is the recordkeeping?

    Answer. There is an entry, when the President wants a call or someone is making a call for the President and the President is going to speak to the party, I have a special assistance operator that answers that line. It has even a certain tone on the board so we know right off that it is the President. And he records the party that he wants to speak to, and the telephone number and the date is also present, and then he processes the call.

    Question. And how far back do the records go of these types of communications?

    Answer. 60 days.

    Question. And what happens after 60 days?

    Answer. The most likely—say we had—at October 31st, we would have September and October's log. When November started, we would destroy September's log and so forth. That is the process.

    Question. Have you ever received any communications from anybody—I will use ''anybody'' in the broadest sense—directing you or requesting that you preserve that type of information?

    Answer. No, I have not.

 Page 1486       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Has anybody from White House Counsel's Office ever discussed with you the types of information that are preserved in this log?

    Answer. Yes, sir.

    Question. And what have been the subjects of their discussions?

    Answer. Most recently with the Vice President's office.

    Question. And when you say that, are you referring to the issues that are in the media of telephone calls, his using the White House?

    Answer. Yes, I am.

    Question. Do you recall—and I will use a specific example; this is a good frame of reference. This committee sent a subpoena to the White House for certain types of information in March of 1997. At any time thereafter, did you receive any communications from the White House suggesting that you should not continue destroying the logs that you had kept?

    And I realize they would have only gone back for 2 months before that.

    Answer. Right. Yes, sir.

 Page 1487       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. But did you ever get any communications or did you ever have any discussions about not destroying the logs that you did have at that time?

    Answer. No, sir.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Let me just say that you need to establish as a predicate whether or not he knows when any of these subpoenas come in, because I don't think that's the case.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Certainly, and I will ask you some questions about that, but I'm just really focusing on whether you got any—I'm not worried whether it is pursuant to a subpoena or whether it is pursuant to somebody's decision just to make an inquiry of you, but just trying to make certain that we have that no inquiries were made of you and no communications were made to you about preserving any materials that would have been contained in the logs of telephone calls.

    Answer. No, sir.

    Question. That was my question.

    Answer. I would say no to that, because the destruction of logs is a matter of policy, and I'm the only one that can change that.

 Page 1488       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. I understand that is policy.

    Answer. And I'm saying that is why that issue would come directly to me. Not even my deputy could make that decision.

    Question. Just to finish off the discussion of telephone communications, does WHCA keep any ongoing record of telephone communications that come from either Air Force One or Air Force Two?

    Answer. No, sir.

    Question. Does WHCA keep——

    Answer. Now, let me define that. There is an operator on Air Force One, and it depends on the type of plane. On the 747, the largest plane, there is a whole communications suite on the top deck. There are 89th Air Wing operators.

    On that plane, the only way you can access communications is to pick the phone up and you will get the operators. Operators intercept on them. There is no direct dialing or anything off of that plane from the passenger side. The President can't even do that. So they record; when someone picks up the phone, usually they identify themselves and say that: I would like to speak to so-and-so; this is the telephone number. They log that in on a sheet.

    And the only reason I know this is because I have to work very closely with them because they interface with my architecture. Any time the President flies, it all comes back to the Washington metropolitan area. I have ground entry points coming off of the satellite system to a ground entry point that is here in the metropolitan area of which I am responsible for. And I spend most of my time, when I'm on Air Force One up there, because, as you can imagine, it is a lot of message traffic, facsimile, messages of all types are coming up, and also communications up and from the plane are ongoing. So I have seen the process.

 Page 1489       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Now, they destroy those logs immediately after the trip, they being the 89th Airborne.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. You have just destroyed one of the premises of the movie ''Air Force One.'' It is really very disappointing to hear that.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Are there—and I am changing subjects entirely here—are there any permanent recording devices in the White House that you know of? And I will start with audio recording devices.

    Answer. No, sir.

    Question. Are there any visual image recording devices in the White House that are permanently installed that you know of?

    Answer. By visual images——

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. You mean security cameras?

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Well, I will get to that, but cameras of any sort, and one subset of that could be a fixed or mounted security camera.

 Page 1490       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. There are fixed cameras in certain positions that I know of. And I will tell you the two areas that I know of.

    In the White House Press Office, there is a camera, so that when anybody makes a statement, it focuses right on the President or whoever is behind the podium; and also in room 450. Now, that is not run by me.

    Room 450 in the Old Executive Office Building, there is a camera there, too.

    Question. Sounds kind of Orwellian, but what is room 450?

    Answer. Well, that's an auditorium, basically, and there will be functions—depending upon the size of the crowd and whatever—held there by the President and Vice President.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. That is where the White House has been screening these videotapes that are the subject of these depositions.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. So those are the two fixed cameras you are aware of?

    Answer. Yes, sir.

 Page 1491       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. You are not aware of any others?

    Answer. No, sir.

    Question. Who maintains the audiovisual tape from those cameras?

    Answer. You will have to—I will have to refer you to GSA for room 450 and the tape for the—I don't know if there's a tape for the one in the press office. That's the one that we had something to do with.

    It just helped us out, because what happens is that when there is a press statement from the press lobby, or also there is a cable TV system and it allows us to take that picture and transmit it over a channel on a closed-circuit TV system that has been in existence since 1960 something, and that camera is there—and I know that we had something to do with the history of WHCA putting that camera there so we could always have a picture of the podium, but I don't believe there's a tape.

    That is why I am saying you would have to—either Chief Petty Officer McGrath or VanKareun would know. I don't believe it is a tape. I believe it only allows you to just picture; it doesn't film. It is not like a videocamera that you would operate. You can turn it on and you can see who is behind it, in other words. It is more optical than video, is my understanding of it.

 Page 1492       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. WILSON. If we could go off the record for just a second.

    [Brief recess.]

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Changing course slightly, I wanted to get into a little bit of discussion on who is doing the recording and who is responsible for the recording.

    I have provided Colonel Simmons with a document that has been marked JS–2, and it has a title on the top ''Residence Event Task Sheet.''

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Actually, can we just make sure the copy that is going in the record is the one the witness is actually seeing. So I think the one that you have marked——

    Mr. WILSON. That would be fine.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Thanks.

    [Simmons Deposition Exhibit No. JS–2 was marked for identification.]

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. As I stated, this is marked ''Residence Event Task Sheet.'' There are three pages, and there are sheets from three different dates. The first is July 31, 1995; the second is September 1, 1995; and the third is September 13, 1995.

 Page 1493       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Are these the types of task sheets that WHCA generates, or does WHCA generate these tasks sheets?

    Answer. No, sir, we do not generate these task sheets.

    Question. Do you know what these are?

    Answer. Sir, I have seen them, and I do believe that they come from the social office.

    Question. At the time that these were prepared, which is 1995, do you know whether the social office provided copies of these task sheets to WHCA personnel?

    Answer. I don't know if these specific sheets were provided, sir. However, during my discussions with my camera crew, they showed me one of these task sheets and said this is usually what they receive from the social office that tells them what event is going to take place and what is required of them.

    Question. Focusing your attention on a line that is about two-thirds down the page next to the acronym initials WHCA, there are a number of categories, and one is recording. It has a yes or a no, and the no has an asterisk next to it.

    Do you know whether the social office, in advance, would provide directives to WHCA to either record or not record events?

 Page 1494       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. My understanding in my discussions with my people are that this sheet is a planning document. And by planning, it means it can be deviated from. So that is my understanding.

    Question. And bearing in mind this is something that you may not have seen at the time, the three sheets that you have in front of you have indications for no recording, and in fact we have now received materials that indicated there was recording at these particular events.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Of a portion of something prior to the actual event itself, might be a more fair characterization, Mr. Wilson.

    Mr. WILSON. I'm focusing on recording yes and recording no.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I would be surprised if you actually had a recording of the event itself after the door was closed, but I think what you are referring to is the tapes that have been produced of the President entering the room and greeting individuals.

    Mr. WILSON. Actually, I'm not trying to testify for anybody. I don't know what the witness knows. I was going to ask him questions.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I just wanted the record to be clear.

    Mr. WILSON. Well, to clarify the record, are you testifying that you know that there are no tapes of the entire event?

 Page 1495       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. No. You just stated, you testified that there was such a recording, and I wanted to be clear that I don't think that is what you were testifying. And maybe I will phrase this as a question to counsel for purposes of clarifying the record.

    Are you referring to a tape of the entire event, or are you referring to the tapes that have been produced to this committee which are videotapes of brief exchanges prior to the coffee events themselves?

    Mr. WILSON. No. It's pointless to get into this, but I asked a question about recording, and it says yes or no. And I'm not stating or providing any information whatsoever on the duration of recording.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. What you said, Mr. Wilson—and the record will speak for itself, but I believe what you said was, in fact, we know that there are recordings of these events. And I wanted to be clear that what you were referring to is the brief recordings of the President entering the room prior to the closing of the door.

    So if that is in fact what you are referring to, you can concur with my qualification of your statement. Otherwise, you can ask the question in a different way.

    Mr. WILSON. Well, if we could go back to my original question, if you are able to find that, I'd appreciate that.

 Page 1496       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    [The reporter read back as requested.]

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Are you aware of any discussion from this time or subsequent about whether events should be recorded or not recorded related to these types of Residence Event Task Sheets?

    What I'm trying to get at here is, did you ever discuss with anybody or do you know of discussions that involve these types of sheets that specified types of recordings and whether there was any feedback on whether events should be recorded or not recorded?

    Answer. No, sir.

    Question. Who was involved in the taping of White House coffee events?

    And I shouldn't interrupt you, but I know that is a question that involves a lot of people.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Are you asking names?

    Mr. WILSON. I am actually asking names. I know these are names, and I don't want to belabor this in trying to recall a lot of names now. If it is possible to provide names for me at a later date, that would be sufficient for right now. I don't want to walk through a lot of names.

 Page 1497       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    The WITNESS. I think that would be better, because it would depend on who was assigned to the camera crew and who is still there, and some people have departed. I can name a few names right now, but I don't know if they were present during these particular events.

    Mr. WILSON. Right. Maybe, if we could leave it that you will make an effort in the course of the next week to provide names of individuals involved in taping coffee events.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Taping coffee events from?

    Mr. WILSON. From 1995 to 1996.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Do you know the names of any of the supervisors of the crews that did the taping?

    Answer. Well, that's sort of a difficult question to answer, and let me try to explain. If you look at this sheet, you will see where it says ''press'' and it says ''no.'' Normally, on the President's schedule there would be a piece that would identify, say, close press or open press.

    Open press means—usually means a full engagement of my audiovisual people as far as audio recording and video recording, public address system, podium, et cetera. Sometimes flags might be requested, et cetera, and all that.

 Page 1498       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Now, a closed press event, unless someone from the staff, White House staff, tells them, usually it is broken down into just maybe a video recording. And that is not always the case, and that is why the video crew checks with the staff member to see if they will be required.

    When a closed press event like this says ''no podium,'' ''no announce mike,'' that means the President is not announced into the room. We do that. And ''no recording,'' that means there's probably no public address system so there will be no audio recording of it. But there will be a video that has audio capabilities there.

    Now, my White House camera crew will check with Steven Goodin or whatever the social office contact is, depending upon the time, and they get a copy of this sheet—at least that is my understanding—and verify if they are needed. And the only reason they have done that is because they have been, I won't say victimized, but they have read the sheet and it said no and then somebody said, ''Why weren't you there? We wanted you.''

    So now they have instituted measures to avert that type of mishap, if you may. So they check with the staff and make sure that, okay, is it you just want the video crew? Or sometimes they might just change and say, we want a microphone or podium capability. So it is a very, very fluid environment.

    So this is a planning document. And I believe that when you talk to my technicians, they will tell you that's all it is, and there can be deviations from it.

 Page 1499       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. You mentioned a change in policy based on certain occasions when video operators were not at a particular event and somebody asked them afterwards why weren't you there.

    Do you know, was there a time at which that policy was changed?

    Answer. No, and I—let me try to clarify that. Things happen on the 18-acre complex. Some things were very, very structured and then other things will just occur; and what will happen is that there will be maybe some ongoing activity that involves foreign policy or a statement that relates to domestic issues, and the President might just decide, I want to make a statement in the Rose Garden—I mean, bam, and so certain parties have to be notified.

    And so probably someone on the White House staff, maybe from the press office, maybe from the social office, maybe from Steve Goodin, the presidential aide will call and say we want this to happen now or maybe someone, from scheduling in advance, will call. So there are occurrences that take place on the White House complex that are not really planned and can happen, and so in order for my operators to preclude not being at a place when these type of occurrences, you know, all of a sudden pop up, they have decided to—and it wasn't like just a formal policy, a matter of, if somebody tells you, where were you last time, you learn very quickly that I need to be there or at least check to make sure if I need to be there.

    Question. Does WHCA have any material that is considered to be privileged or confidential? And those are terms of art, and I don't want to take a lot of time trying to define the terms of art; but is there any type of material that you know of—and again, I want to stay out of the National Security Council realms, types of things that involve national security issues.

 Page 1500       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. I was going to say, you used ''confidential''——

    Mr. WILSON. I knew that is what you were immediately thinking, and I don't want that and I don't want to go there.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. But is there anything else that WHCA records that—maybe a better way of thinking of this is, fits into a different category, a category of heightened sensitivity.

    Answer. I am trying to understand your question. I can't think of anything that we would record that would be of that nature. You know, we would treat it as a presidential record, which, to me, puts it at a certain level of—and we are very sensitive to that, because we know it has to be archived; and that would be the sensitivity that we would direct to that type of recording.

    Question. Now, following from that, are there any types of—or any specific records that you have kept—and those could be audiovisual or simply audio—that in consultation with White House personnel it has been suggested that those materials contained privileged information? For example, if there was a recording of a White House lawyer talking to a White House employee that happened to be captured on a sort of normal video shoot, has that situation ever come up?

 Page 1501       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. To my knowledge, no, sir.

    Question. Has any White House employee suggested to anybody at WHCA that material that has been sought by either the House of Representatives, Senate, Department of Justice investigators, not be turned over because of any type of privilege or confidentiality or special nature of that material?

    Answer. Again, to my knowledge, no.

    Question. Breaking this down to the two components—actually, three components—we have photo, video and audio. Let's just take video first. Who has access to the video materials that have been recorded?

    Answer. Who has access? I am trying to understand your question.

    Question. For example, if I were to locate your office and knock on the door, and say, I'm here; I want to look at the tapes, would I be allowed that?

    Answer. No.

    Question. How could I be allowed to see the tapes, if there is a way?

    Answer. First, if you went to the area, you would have to go to Room 85, event productions, and if you asked for the tape, they would ask you to identify yourself because the people that they deal with, they know—they have developed a relationship where they know who they are; and if someone shows up that they do not know, they ask them questions, and they take their requests—we always try to be courteous—and then we tell them that they need to direct their inquiry to the White House Military Office.

 Page 1502       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    And usually about the course of that time, I will get a phone call or Mr. Smith will get a phone call—probably Mr. Smith, since he is my chief of operations—saying that a person is asking for a tape. That is something that is usually out of the norm, and we are very sensitive, because we treat anything that we record as a presidential record, and we are reluctant to give it to anyone unless someone provides us some type of authentication.

    Question. Is there a statutory or regulatory bar on people viewing the videos?

    Answer. The only reason I say that, I have not found it, and I have really tried to—I have even consulted with the other services, audiovisual elements; and the other services, I mean the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. We have not found that statute as regards video per se, other than when it becomes, you know, a presidential record under the Presidential Records Act, you know, there is something there.

    But I have not—I guess when you—I believe that when you are in WHCA and we try to espouse this, that we have a very sensitive job as relates to the support that we provide, it is not something that we just broadcast to the world because they do not have a need to know. That is why we go to a very—a demanding security screening process.

    It takes either 6 to 9 months, and even if you have a Top Secret Compartmented clearance, that doesn't give you access to WHCA, you have to have what they call a Yankee White clearance that is unique to presidential support. And so our people, if anything, are very guarded in any type of information that they provide.

 Page 1503       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Now, if a Steven Goodin called and said he wanted to see it—most likely, if a Harold Ickes called up and said he wanted it, he could probably see it too, absolutely. That is what I am saying, those are the types of people they would respond to. They know they are senior staff people and they would do it.

    But I would, in turn, or Mr. Smith would be notified, because when someone asks to retrieve a record, we are usually informed, because that is just not the norm unless, you know—usually when they ask for it, they state the purpose of it; and so I guess you would have to build me a scenario who was asking and what was the reason, what were the reasons they were asking.

    Question. Do you know whether there is any type of record-keeping system for people who do review video materials at WHCA?

    Answer. Again, I would like to refer that to my technicians. I know there is a form that they fill out, name and what they are requesting to see; and usually it is required for them to interface with the National Archives and retrieve the record, and those occurrences—I don't want to give you the idea those things don't happen because they have happened. I can't cite a specific incident, but I know that records have been retrieved from the National Archives. There is not a high demand, you know, everybody saying I want this back, and let me see this, how does this look, et cetera.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Jim, are you asking whether there is a record for people who want to come in and look at a tape in WHCA or retrieve the tape.

 Page 1504       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. WILSON. Actually, I am not familiar with the distinction so much. But I was actually asking for people—I will break it down—for people who do want to come in and view or review or look at one of the tapes, if there is a sign-in book or a log; and you have just described that there is a form.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. That is what I am saying, the coming in, sitting and reviewing is different from coming in and asking to check out a copy of a tape.

    Mr. WILSON. I was actually going to get to the whole checkout aspect.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. But for him to be clear, I think he is describing the retrieval system.

    The WITNESS. The retrieval system, correct.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Then just to be clear, if somebody wants to review a videotape at WHCA, is there a record kept of that individual, if they have in fact reviewed anything?

    Answer. I don't know that. I couldn't answer that. I know there is a record kept of retrieving a tape from the National Archives.

 Page 1505       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. So—and part of this is my failure to grasp where the tapes literally are. When do tapes go to the Archives?

    Answer. The policy now that Chief McGrath has and has had for quite a while, since he has been on board, is he has tried to keep it within a week, videos that are recorded within a period of a week, they contact the National Archives and the National Archives comes and picks them up. They are temporarily stored in the master control facility, up on the fifth floor in the Old Executive Office Building.

    Question. So within a period of approximately 1 week, they are stored on site at the——

    Answer. And then that is dependent upon travel, you know, and all that.

    Question. Do you know where they are kept at the Archives?

    Answer. No, I have not been there.

    Question. Okay. So it is your understanding that when anybody wants to review any videotape, first it has to be retrieved, as long as it falls without the 1 week approximate time period?

    Answer. Correct, uh-huh.

 Page 1506       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. And there is a form that is filled out to actually retrieve the tape?

    Answer. That is right.

    Question. Do you know where those forms are kept?

    Answer. No, I do not.

    Question. And is it your understanding that this system would apply to White House counsel who have recently reviewed videotapes?

    Answer. Oh, yes, very much so.

    Question. Turning to audiotapes, are audiotapes treated the same way as videotapes, as far as the record-keeping goes?

    Answer. Yes, sir, they all—both of them ultimately reside in the National Archives.

    Question. Do you know whether there is a retrieval form that is prepared to obtain older video- or audiotapes?

    Answer. I don't know the exact process. I know that we just can't call the National Archives up and say, we want this tape; so I know there is some type of record that is initiated, but I have not seen the form.

 Page 1507       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. And then, finally, with negatives or contacts or photographs, do you know whether there is a record-keeping system for obtaining photographs or negatives, contacts, photographs or negatives of photographs?

    Answer. I couldn't answer that question.

    Question. Who would be——

    Answer. Sergeant, first class Santoro could tell you.

    Question. You indicated a moment ago that it was somewhat of a—I don't want to mischaracterize this, so just correct me immediately if I am wrong. It was a somewhat unusual situation for somebody to request materials from WHCA, older materials from WHCA, video- or audiotapes; is that correct?

    Answer. I did say that, and maybe—let me see if I can word that a little better.

    When we record video and audio, it becomes—it is treated as a presidential record, so presidential records ultimately end up in the National Archives, and we consider that very sensitive information in our business. So it's usually, you know, we are providing more input to the National Archives and are not using it just to have people call up and say, I want to see this.

 Page 1508       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Now I don't want to give the impression that there aren't reasons or occurrences, and that is why I would like to defer that to my technicians, Sergeant VanKareun and Chief Petty Officer McGrath, because they probably have a better feel for it, but I am sure we—from my perspective, we provide input to the National Archives more than going back and retrieving them, until this very day, now we have done more work than we ever have before.

    Question. Do you know of any examples of requests for either video- or audiotapes to be copied and given to other individuals, for example, do you know of any requests where WHCA has been asked to provide five videotapes for their participants at a meeting or a lunch or an event?

    Answer. No, sir, I do not.

    Question. And as far as photographs go, do you know of any examples where somebody has contacted WHCA employees after an event and asked for photographs from a particular event?

    Answer. I will say no from the standpoint, I don't work in the photo lab, and ask for—you know, have been involved in that process.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Let me say this. You have to appreciate where Colonel Simmons is in this entire structure. You are asking him very technical questions about what very junior people do.

    Mr. WILSON. I understand that, and 3 weeks ago, I would have not asked the question, but in the recapitulation in the last 3 or 4 weeks, reviewing these matters with other people, talking about all the things that inevitably are coming up pursuant to why we are here, I am sure you have learned a lot of things—I am not sure of that, but—I started getting in the weeds.

 Page 1509       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. WILSON. You learned things you didn't know about before, and that is what I was getting at. And it was my assumption prior to this that if somebody wanted something, they dealt with the White House photographer people and they would deal with their own folks.

    The WITNESS. Usually those—and you will find in your discourse with my technicians, usually those requests come from the White House Photo Office, Photographic Office; and I am sure they have been done, but you know, I couldn't tell you—you know, I couldn't cite a specific date or event.

    Question. Just turning to preservation material that WHCA maintains, is there a policy manual or any type of directive that outlines how material is to be preserved?

    Answer. I would defer that to my technicians. I believe there is. Now, you are saying photographic negatives and tapes and so forth.

    Question. Yes. Yes, and that is obviously a very broad question, you have already answered in part some of the details, for example, with the photo logs, they are kept for—the telephone logs are kept for 2 months and destroyed on a routine basis.

    So, I mean, there might be different manuals. I'm just getting a sense of whether you know of a basic policy manual or set of directives or even regulations——

 Page 1510       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. I know they have—I believe that they have their own SOPs that discuss what they do, how they archive and retrieve and so forth. And I guess I would have to defer that to them as far as how long they preserve the records.

    Question. Do you know whether any material that is potentially responsive to this committee's subpoena, or Senate subpoenas or Department of Justice information requests has been destroyed?

    Answer. In what context?

    Question. That is not meant as an offensive question. For example, the telephone logs are routinely——

    Answer. But——

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. The problem is, he doesn't know what was requested.

    Mr. WILSON. I suppose we will get to that.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Actually, a number of times you talked about requests from the two committees and the Department of Justice. It might be useful to establish a predicate as to whether or not he receives a directive from the Counsel's Office and whether that directive mentions the requesting body. It might be a more useful thing to refer to document directives from the Counsel's Office since, I believe—correct me if I am wrong, Colonel Simmons—that is what your office receives, and maybe you want to establish that predicate, rather than continue to refer to the requesting bodies.

 Page 1511       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. We will get to that. Just in terms, though, of my question, do you know, in subsequent conversations with people, whether any material that you now believe might be responsive to any document requests or information requests has been destroyed?

    Answer. To my knowledge, none has been destroyed.

    Question. Is it possible that any material responsive to document requests no longer exists or has been destroyed?

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. I don't like that question at all. I mean, he would not know what was responsive to any of these requests.

    Mr. WILSON. That could be the answer then, if that is the answer.

    The WITNESS. Let me tell you the direction that I gave my people.

    As far as anything that they do—and we pulled them in when this whole issue surfaced, and I specifically said, there will be no changing of any records, tapes, videotapes, et cetera. And I told my people that, and it has been passed down. Now that is what I told them, and I have trust and confidence in them, and they wouldn't do it.

 Page 1512       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. I am actually getting not so much the affirmative, somebody has gone out and thrown a tape away, to more the telephone log situation where there might have been material, it might or might not have been responsive. But it has, on a routine basis, been—I don't want to use the word with negative connotations—''destroyed,'' but the materials do not exist because of ongoing policy, and this is kind of a wrap-up question.

    Are you aware of any other types of materials that are not kept because of policy, that may have existed prior to today, that no longer exist?

    Answer. Right offhand, only the items that we have discussed. Telephone logs, I know that they are destroyed, and that is the policy that has been instituted long before this committee even started, even years back, okay, so that is—I have even read the policy; I know it.

    As far as videotapes and audiotapes, destruction of, I feel fairly confident in saying that they have not been destroyed, at least, you know, as far as my people are concerned. They treat them as presidential records. I know they are very guarded about what they do.

    Question. Do you know whether any of the raw audiovisual tapes or audiotapes that are recorded by technicians at the White House are ever altered in any way when they—after they have been initially recorded? And I am asking you about whether they are put in different formats or put into different sorts of categories or turned into compilations, just changed in any way from their original format.

 Page 1513       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. The only changes I know that occurred would have been with this process that has taken place recently. And let me define that.

    The tape that was used is a Beta tape, and then the conversion to a VHS, it was—you know, the format, it was changed, so you can see it, and so forth. That is the type of change I know as it relates to videotapes.

    As to audiotapes, I don't know of any changes at all.

    Question. So you are not aware of any change apart from that which you mentioned, the recorded state to the way that the tapes are ultimately put in the Archives?

    Answer. That is correct.

    Question. Turning your attention to the process of the information requests. When were you first aware that—and I will ask them all together—the Senate, the House of Representatives or the Department of Justice were interested in information that you might have with—I don't mean you personally—but that WHCA might have?

    Answer. There have been various memos through the course of this year, 1997, and '96 from the Counsel's Office that my organization has been in receipt of from the White House Military Office that asked for documents and records, and usually it had a list of names and organizations on it.

 Page 1514       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Do you know when the first request came to your attention?

    Answer. No. I have looked through my files, and I have seen some as far back as February of '96. I have seen some very recent, during 1997.

    Question. And I will just——

    Answer. I don't know when the first one came.

    Question. For clarity's sake on the record, you refer to February of '96?

    Answer. Yes, sir.

    Question. What request was that?

    Answer. I just looked through the file as of recently because a lot has been made mention of—memorandums and so forth—and I just pulled my file in my office, and I noticed there was one from February of '96, I just looked at the date; I was focusing more on the 28th of April of 1997.

    Question. Okay. Now, bearing in mind that none of us know what this is, would it be possible after review by your counsel to provide us with the request from February of 1996?

 Page 1515       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Keeping in mind it is a White House document.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. And that it is a counsel document.

    Mr. WILSON. I don't know what it is.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. He described it as a document from counsel, so it is not WHCA's document. I will find out about it.

    Mr. WILSON. If you could, that would be very helpful.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. Turning to the request that came in, when were you first aware that WHCA might have materials that were responsive to document requests by the Department of Justice, the White House or the House of Representatives—I mean the Department of Justice, Senate or the House of Representatives?

    Answer. I remember, as it relates to the 28th of April, 1997, request from counsel, I was made aware that some of the documents that we had were classified, and that were responsive to the request from the general Counsel's Office.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Can I ask a follow-up there? Did that directive state who the requesting entities were?

 Page 1516       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    The WITNESS. Yes, it did.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It did?

    The WITNESS. Yes, it did.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. And those entities would be.

    The WITNESS. No—the requesting entities?

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Yes. In other words, it was a directive from the Counsel's Office, I believe you represented, on April 28, 1997?

    The WITNESS. Right.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Do you recall if that document stated whether it was from an independent counsel, whether it was from a committee of Congress, whether——

    The WITNESS. No, it did not. I did not see the document for the 28th of April. I am telling you that I was aware that we had documents in response to the request.

    Mr. WILSON. I will get to that, and we will work through that in a moment.

 Page 1517       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. But just trying to recapitulate there, I suppose the best way to do this is, prior to April 28 of 1997, do you know whether WHCA provided any information pursuant to any document requests?

    Answer. Provided any information, yes.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Counsel, you mean from 10/94 to the present, or to April 28, 1997?

    Mr. WILSON. Correct.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Okay.

    The WITNESS. Any time we received a request for documents, the request came from the Counsel's Office, to the White House Military Office and ultimately to us. And all of those requests required a negative response, or if you had documents. So we either responded negatively or responded with a document.

    Question. I don't want to include anything that is not germane to document requests pertaining to the sort of umbrella campaign finance investigations.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Except for the February of '96 one that you have requested.

 Page 1518       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. WILSON. Well, I'm not referring to that now. I asked a question about that; they provided information. I don't quite understand——

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. You just said you weren't interested in things other than campaign finance——

    Mr. WILSON. Germane to this question.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Fair enough. I want the record to be clear.

    Mr. WILSON. Well, you will have an opportunity to follow up at the end of my questioning, and hopefully you will take an opportunity to do that, but these needless interruptions are not productive.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. My obligation here is to ensure the cold record is clear. As you know, Mr. Wilson, I am intolerant of sloppiness and indecision, and when I detect it, I will state as much for the record.

    Mr. WILSON. And on occasion you are in error yourself. I wasn't referring to February of '96, you brought in an extraneous issue and needlessly interrupted my question. You might have thought there was a purpose to it, but there was not.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I apologize that my intelligence does not match yours, Mr. Wilson, but when I detect something confusing to me, I am going to state as much for the record. It is important to the success of this process, whatever it is, that the cold record that is produced from today's deposition be clear.

 Page 1519       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    I encourage you to move forward with your questions. I don't think this is a productive discussion be holding on the record.

    Mr. WILSON. Neither do I.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Jim, I'm sorry, I just want you to appreciate and to understand that the document requests they get are not all confined to this—to campaign finance reform. As long as you keep that in mind——

    Mr. WILSON. I understand, and I know it is difficult to parse one thing to another; and to the extent you can, you can. If you can't, tell me you can't, and I will try to be more clear on the subject.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. I suppose the most direct way of getting at this is for requests that are germane to the campaign finance investigations—it is complicated, diverse; they come from different directions—but when was the first time WHCA provided any type of material germane to document requests?

    And, I mean, I understand if you interrupt me and say you can't answer that question.

    Answer. I can't give you the first date. I just know that there have been requests that relate to campaign finance activities, and there have been a series of memorandums, but I can't tell you the date of the first one or when we were aware of it.

 Page 1520       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. WILSON. I am providing Colonel Simmons with a document that is marked for the record JS–3. It is a copy of a subpoena that originated with the Government Reform and Oversight Committee of the House of Representatives, and it is directed to the counsel to the President.

    [Simmons Deposition Exhibit No. JS–3 was marked for identification.]

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. You can take a moment to look at it, but the question is relatively simple and that is, did you ever receive a copy of this subpoena or sections of this subpoena?

    Answer. I have not received a copy of this subpoena.

    Question. Do you know whether, on or about March 4 of 1996, you received any communications or inquiries from the White House or the Office of the Counsel at the White House requesting information of any—I mean, take a moment and have a look at this if you would like—requesting any of the information that is requested in this subpoena.

    That is an unfair question.

    There is an awful lot of information that is requested in the subpoena. I don't want one small part of it to be something that would cause you to sit here and read for 2 hours, but were you aware in any way of a subpoena coming from the House of Representatives to the White House that might have included information that WHCA had in its possession?

 Page 1521       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. No, I was not aware.

    Question. I will provide for Colonel Simmons a document that is marked Exhibit JS–4. It is a memorandum addressed to Executive Office of the President, from the Counsel to the President Charles Ruff; it is dated April 28, 1997.

    [Simmons Deposition Exhibit No. JS–4 was marked for identification.]

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. And if you could take a moment just to look at this. It is a four-page document, two pages on attachment A that goes for two pages.

    Have you ever seen this document before?

    Answer. Yes, I have.

    Question. Did you receive it on or about April 28 of this year?

    Answer. Let me expand my answer. I have seen this document as a result of the inquiry about tapes. Initially, I had not seen this document in its entirety.

    Usually, correspondence of this nature—and I will say how we have handled other inquiries. My Deputy/Chief of Staff, Colonel Campbell, would usually deal directly with the White House Military Office as far as these types of inquiries from counsel. The reason I am familiar with this document is because when the request came through—and I am relating to you what I have learned as of my investigation of this whole issue—the attachment, a list, there were what we would call ''hits.''

 Page 1522       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    We had documents when we did our search that surfaced as a result of doing the search on the names and entities, and that was made aware to me because they were of a classified nature. In other words, the names or entities were in the text of a classified message and there were about four messages, I believe; and that was—and I knew that because Ken and I have a very good relationship, and he is very thorough. And he says, well, we got hit on this one and, he says, it is classified; and I know there was a process that we had to initiate because it was classified message traffic, and we were making copies of it.

    Question. Do you know when this was?

    Answer. This had to be around the early May time frame, and the reason I state that is because I remember distinctly getting ready to leave for a trip, and my deputy was briefing me on what had happened.

    Question. And you indicated that you received certain specific hits when you were doing a search for material. What individual entities did that involve?

    Answer. All the entities that have access, that have databases; and this is a result of my perusal, various correspondence from various organizations within WHCA, e-mails, stating that they didn't have documents or so forth, so it—I know the process was implemented, the search was conducted.

    Question. Well, I think that was truly a time when my question was completely misleading. I was actually referring to when you obtained information about—you know, pursuant to the document request that involved certain people who were in the—and the information was of a classified nature, but it involved—and what I am asking is, who did that information involve, the individual, the entity.

 Page 1523       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    I am not asking for the substance or the copy of the classified material, but who did it involve?

    Answer. You want me to name them?

    Question. Yes.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Do you mean on here?

    Mr. WILSON. No, no.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. I believe you testified that after receiving a document request, you did searches, you initiated searches?

    Answer. That is correct.

    Question. And certain information came up pursuant to that search?

    Answer. That is correct.

    Question. Or searches, and it involved certain individuals or entities?

 Page 1524       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Correct.

    Question. I am just interested in what it was that was responsive.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. You have testified there was correspondence coming back into the office from the various divisions of WHCA, and maybe the question is, which division came back with hits?

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Is that your question. Your question is, which of these——

    Mr. WILSON. Precisely who was involved——

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It is not, which individuals on there came back; it is, which individuals were involved in doing the search for hits?

    Mr. WILSON. No.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. You want to know which individuals on the list came back, affirmative?

    Mr. WILSON. Yes.

 Page 1525       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Including the classified ones?

    Mr. WILSON. Yes, exactly.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Do we need to classify this deposition?

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Do you even remember.

    The WITNESS. I know one name.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. The problem is, that may be the one that is included on the request.

    Ms. COMSTOCK. If we could go off the record for a minute.

    [Discussion off the record.]

    Mr. WILSON. Back on the record.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. To follow up on my last question, the answer to the question is clear. It involves information that is still of a classified nature that counsel for Colonel Simmons has indicated that he will provide, in the appropriate forum and at the appropriate time, which I believe will be within the next week or so.

 Page 1526       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Sure.

    Mr. WILSON. As soon as is practicable, the information that would follow from my question. And we will move from that question.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. In response to the April 28th memorandum, I have got to admit to being a little bit lost in where we are on this, but I was going in a certain direction and the direction was information that was provided by WHCA, pursuant to this request for information.

    Outside of anything that involves classified information, did WHCA provide documents that were responsive to this information request?

    Answer. Outside of those documents that I just talked about, that was it, that was the extent of what we provided.

    Question. Do you know who at WHCA was responsible for checking within WHCA to determine what was responsive to this document request?

    Answer. I know that my deputy, Colonel Ken Campbell, handled this request.

    Question. Were there any other individuals that were involved in the supervising?

 Page 1527       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Answer. Well, what he did is, he sent an electronic e-mail, an electronic mail-out, with the attachment A names and entities, to all of the organizations within WHCA.

    Question. And do you know whether the e-mail that he sent out included just the names that are listed on attachment A, or did it include any of the text of the first two pages describing the document request?

    Answer. As a result of my perusal of this issue, I know he sent an e-mail out with attachment A.

    Question. But none of the material——

    Answer. None of the material, but the other two pages.

    Question. If you could give me an overview on the sort of diverse information, upon what was received and what wasn't received, do you know whether your deputy had the entire April 28 communication from counsel to the President, or did he just have the attachment?

    Answer. My discussion with him, he can't remember the entire document. And we reviewed this numerous times. He can't remember it. He is not saying it didn't exist, but he can't remember an entire document.

    And the reason that this amplified out a little more, usually the requests that we received from the general counsel were of the nature where there would be some text or paragraph; and then it will all point to the attachments and our lists with names. Even sometimes it was a single-page request with a list of names, and our entities on it, names of individuals, and that is the format where they usually came.

 Page 1528       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    For some reason—and we have tried to trace this back—he doesn't remember the top two pages. The White House Military Office says they faxed it to us, and so we are not denying that, but as a result, all we saw and all we have a record of is attachment A and his e-mail going out.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Can I ask a follow-up?

    Is only attachment A what you found in your files when you pulled your file later?

    The WITNESS. The hits that were taking place, yes, we used these names and entities as keys for the search.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I'm sorry, my question was unclear.

    You testified that recently you pulled your file to look at the document requests that had come from the Counsel's Office?

    The WITNESS. That is correct.

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. In your file, was there a four-page document on April 28, including the first two pages that are now in front of you, or only attachment A.

    The WITNESS. I only saw attachment A, and it wasn't even a fax copy.

 Page 1529       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It was a hard copy?

    The WITNESS. It was a hard copy.

    And now the way he sent the e-mail out, he had to scan that list into the computer and send it out, and all we have—because if it is a fax copy, you have a little date and a time at the top—and all we saw was just, I guess, a reproduction of the printout of attachment A.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

    Question. You anticipated my question. We know about your files.

    Now in terms of—I have forgotten the name of the individual.

    Lieutenant Colonel SPARKS. Al Sullivan.

    Mr. WILSON. No, who sent out the e-mail.

    The WITNESS. Colonel Campbell.

EXAMINATION BY MR. WILSON:

 Page 1530       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Yes, Colonel Campbell. Did you conduct a search of his files?

    Answer. Oh, we searched the entire office. We turned it upside down.

    Question. And what was contained in his files, if anything?

    Answer. Well, my files and his files are just one file, and—just for point of clarification, it is just one file that exists. But we have looked everywhere, and we just could not find the April 28th fax of the first two pages, or the entire message.

    Question. To the extent you know methodologically, the attachment A that we have in the document you have been shown as Exhibit JS–4, has a number of names of individuals and a number of names of entities, mostly companies or corporations.

    In terms of the method of searching for the material contained in this attachment, do you know how the searches were conducted?

    Answer. I don't know exactly how the searches were conducted; only, in my discussions, as have been told to me, we used the names and entities as keys for the search and would make queries based upon the names and the entities. That is the way that it was done.

    And as a result of that, we did get a hit.

    This was the most extensive list that we have received from the Counsel's Office.

 Page 1531       PREV PAGE       TOP OF DOC    Segment 19 Of 22

    Question. Do you know who was involved in actually doing the database searching to determine whether materials related to these individuals or entities could be found?

    Answer. No, I don't know by name who did it. I just know that organizations, all the organizations in the White House Communications Agency conducted a search.

    Question. Do you know whether there was any discussion at the time on how a search might best be conducted to determine whether WHCA had information about the individuals or entities in this attachment?

Next Hearing Segment(20)