Segment 21 Of 22 Previous Hearing Segment(20) Next Hearing Segment(22)
SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
Page 1610 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Colonel SPARKS. All right.
Mr. BENNETT. In the event that you would want to make changes, substantive changes, or modifications or clarifications or amendments to the deposition transcript submitted by you, they must be accompanied by a letter requesting those changes and a statement of reasons for each proposed change. A letter requesting substantive changes, modifications, clarifications or amendments must be signed by you. Any substantive changes, modifications, et cetera, would be included as an appendix.
Is there anything that you don't understand that I have said thus far, Mr. Sullivan?
The WITNESS. I understand it all.
Mr. BENNETT. Colonel Sparks, any questions you have in terms of procedure?
Colonel SPARKS. None.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Before you get into the substantive questions, I have two statements for the record.
Mr. BENNETT. Sure.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. The first is I want to note for the record the Minority's ongoing objection as to the scheduling of this deposition, as Mr. Condit indicated in his letter on Wednesday, which I believe you saw it at least by yesterday.
Page 1611 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Mr. BENNETT. I have yet to see Mr. Condit's letter.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I am not sure what staff error in your office has caused that to happen.
Mr. BENNETT. I don't presume it is a staff error, Mr. McLaughlin. Again, I haven't received it, and we have looked in our office. I have yet to receive a letter from Mr. Condit's office.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Copies were given and made a part of the record, Mr. Bennett. So I am not sure whose error it was in bringing it to you, but perhaps you want to investigate that staff error.
Anyway, I want to make clear for the record that Minority members of this committee wanted the opportunity to participate in this deposition. They have requested that opportunity. They have requested it in writing, and it has not been honored. Accordingly, we object as to the scheduling of this deposition.
Second, I want to note for Mr. Sparks that pursuant to House rule XI 2(k)(8), objections as to pertinence are the province of the full committee and not merely the chairman to decide. Accordingly, any rulings by the chairman on such objections are appealable to the full committee.
Mr. BENNETT. Just for the record, Congressman Condit is the one Member who apparently has voiced an objection to this scheduling. For the record, that was never voiced to me until Thursday, October the 16th. I met with Mr. Ruff, Counsel to the President at the White House, last Friday, October the 10th, with Mr. Kenneth Ballen. It was discussed that we would begin immediately taking depositions. There has literally not been one word from any Member of Congress, Republican or Democrat, to me, with respect to the scheduling of these depositions until it was brought to my attention yesterday that Mr. Ballen had indicated an objection on the record.
Page 1612 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
So meaning no disrespect to Congressman Condit, we will see that he gets a transcript of this or he has access to it as quickly as possible. And certainly in the event that Members of Congress desire to ask any questions, we may have to bring Mr. Sullivan back.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Let me just note that to the extent that you do uncover what happened to those copies of the letter that were sent to your committee, Mr. Bennett, you may want to review the text of the letter, and you will see that Mr. Condit is speaking not merely on behalf of himself, but of all the Democratic members of the Committee. And so I think it is not a trivial objection by one Member, but rather the sense of the entire Minority of the Committee that participation in these depositions is important. At the very least, you had notice of this yesterday, and I note that we are now sitting here, Thursday morning, going forward with this deposition.
Mr. BENNETT. For the record, it is Friday morning and was——
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I stand corrected.
Mr. BENNETT. I received word of this late yesterday afternoon, and in light of the scheduling considerations and in light of the Members basically being here Monday nights through Thursday afternoons, it is very difficult, obviously, to schedule depositions at the convenience of witnesses and lawyers and schedule all those in a 3 1/2-day time frame in light of the presence of the Members of Congress here in Washington. And again, we are certainly willing to reconvene the deposition, if necessary, and accord Members the opportunity to ask any questions.
Page 1613 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Mr. Sullivan, if you will state your date of birth, please?
Answer. October 17th, 1948; which is 49 years ago today.
Question. Well, happy birthday, Mr. Sullivan.
Answer. Thank you.
Question. I am sorry you have to spend your 49th birthday under these circumstances.
Sir, you have been employed at the White House for how long?
Answer. Slightly less than 3 years. Since November 1994.
Question. What is your educational background, sir?
Answer. I have three masters' degrees and a bachelor's degree.
Question. And where did you attend college for your bachelor's degree?
Page 1614 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Villanova University.
Question. And then having graduated from Villanova, you then received—got your master's degree where?
Answer. I received a master's degree in human resources management from Pepperdine University; a master's degree in finance from New York University, that's an MBA; and a master's in strategic studies and national defense from the Naval War College.
Question. Do you have a military background, sir?
Answer. I do.
Question. And what is your military background?
Answer. Twenty-plus years of active duty in the United States Marine Corps, retired at the rank of colonel.
Question. Do you prefer to go by Colonel Sullivan or Mr. Sullivan?
Answer. Mister.
Question. Mr. Sullivan. Well, again, as I am a retired major in the Reserves, perhaps I should call you Colonel Sullivan. I will call you Mister, but if I vary——
Page 1615 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I prefer Mister.
Question. That's fine.
When did you retire from the Marine Corps?
Answer. I left—my last day of active duty was the Friday preceding my employment at the White House in 1994.
Question. And I am sorry, did you say that was October of 1994?
Answer. At the end of October or the beginning of November. I retired for record purposes 1 January 1995, having taken terminal leave.
Question. I understand. I understand.
Answer. In accordance with code 5—section 5 of the U.S. Code.
Question. Then I gather prior to your employment at the White House in October of 1994, your political activities were somewhat limited in light of your active military status?
Answer. I have no political activity whatsoever.
Page 1616 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And what was—who was the person most responsible for your being hired at the White House?
Answer. Al Mauldon.
Question. How did you know Mr. Mauldon?
Answer. I didn't.
Question. Did you come to apply for the job? I guess I am asking how did you come to retire from the Marine Corps and come to work at the White House?
Answer. I had planned on retiring from the Marine Corps. I had already turned down my colonel's command, the opportunity to command an air station, and indicated to the Marine Corps I planned to retire; I was out looking for jobs. And it came to the attention of one of the senior officials in the Department of Defense at the Office of the Secretary of Defense that I was planning on entering a private career, and he brought to my attention the fact that this position might be available, and John Deutch nominated me to be interviewed at the White House.
Question. Okay. And the position being—head of the White House Military Office?
Answer. Yes, an organization I had never heard of until that point.
Page 1617 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And who was Mr. John Deutch?
Answer. Right now?
Question. Yes. I am sorry, who was he? Was he a personal friend of yours? Did you know him?
Answer. He was the Deputy Secretary of Defense, and he was not a personal friend. He was a superior and a colleague. I worked directly for one of the assistant secretaries in the engineering—research and engineering area.
Question. So then to whom did you submit your application at the White House to head up the White House Military Office?
Answer. I interviewed with Phil Lader and Leon Panetta and Jodie Torkelson.
Question. And Jodie Torkelson, I believe, was the Assistant to the President for Management and Administration?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And having interviewed with those persons, who was the person who told you that you were hired for the position?
Page 1618 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. The President.
Question. And when did you first meet with the President?
Answer. I will estimate.
Question. That's fine.
Answer. In September or October of 1994.
Question. And how many interview sessions did you have with the President prior to the time being hired?
Answer. One.
Question. Just one?
Answer. About 30 seconds' worth.
Question. And in terms of—you were hired then to be the Director of the White House Military Office?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And is that the only position that you have held at the White House?
Page 1619 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you have held that position then since approximately October of 1994?
Answer. I actually walked through the door in November of 1994.
Question. So you have been in that job almost——
Answer. Two years and——
Question. Almost 3 years then?
Answer. Yes, almost 3 years.
Question. How many people work in the White House Military Office?
Answer. Fifteen percent less than in 1992. We are down to 1,800.
Question. And how many different groups report to that office?
Answer. Depending on how you parse it, you can call it 10 groups or 11.
Page 1620 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And one of those groups is the White House Communications Agency, known by the acronym WHCA, correct?
Answer. Correct.
Question. What are the other organizations that report to you?
Answer. The entity known as the President's Pilots' Office, colloquially known as Air Force One; Marine Helicopter Squadron One, which provides a helicopter known as Marine One; a staff office called Airlift Operations; Camp David; the White House Communications Agency; the White House staff Mess; the White House Transportation Agency, known as the motor pool; the medical unit; the Special Programs Office; the Presidential Contingency Programs Office; and the Security Office; and the military aides, military aides to the President.
Question. All told, the number of people in those various agencies total approximately 1,800?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And in the White House Military Office itself, the coordinating center, where you are the Director, how many people are employed there?
Answer. There are a total of eight people.
Question. And the names of those people—how many people have been there in that group since you arrived in October of 1994?
Page 1621 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. One.
Question. And the eight people that are presently employed there, their names, please?
Answer. My administrative assistant is Ms. Danie Donnelly, that's D-O-N-N-E-L-L-Y; my chief of staff is Colonel Timothy Milbrath, M-I-L-B-R-A-T-H, active duty, U.S. Air Force; my assistant chief of staff is a Lieutenant Colonel Gregory Raths, R-A-T-H-S, U.S. Marine Corps; my ceremonies coordinator is Mr. Ron Wright, W-R-I-G-H-T; and I have three enlisted—junior enlisted personnel who work as clerks, a tech sergeant, John Otto, O-T-T-O; a sergeant, Darryl Turner, U.S. Army; and a WN–1, Denver Peters, P-E-T-E-R-S.
Is that it?
Colonel SPARKS. Seven.
The WITNESS. And me.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. And you report to an immediate supervisor who is the Assistant to the President for Management and Administration?
Answer. Yep.
Page 1622 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And that person was Ms. Jodie Torkelson, but I believe now she is with Voice of America; is that correct? I mean, she is no longer there, right?
Answer. She is gone.
Question. She is gone. Who took place her place?
Answer. Ms. Virginia Apuzzo, A-P-U-Z-Z-O. She has been on the job 12 days.
Question. That's an interesting time for her to arrive, I guess.
Colonel SPARKS. Welcome party.
Mr. BENNETT. Yes. Let the record reflect that there was a chuckle with that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Prior to 12 days ago, when did Ms. Torkelson leave? I did not realize she left so recently.
Answer. She left during the summer.
Page 1623 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. She did.
Was the position vacant for a period of time?
Answer. Yes, blessedly so.
Question. As best you can recollect, when is the—for the record, Ms. Barbara Comstock, another counsel and chief investigative counsel for the Majority, has arrived.
When did Ms. Jodie Torkelson leave the position Assistant to the President for Management and Administration?
Answer. For the record, I can't remember, but it was in the summer of 1997, mid—midsummer.
Question. And did the individual who took her place—she arrived, you say, 12 days ago?
Answer. Correct, during the month of October 1997.
Question. Now, Ms. Torkelson, did she leave in August or July? Do you recall exactly when she left?
Answer. I honestly don't recollect.
Page 1624 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Did you have any discussions with Ms. Torkelson prior to her departing her position as Assistant to the President for Management and Administration with respect to any inquiry concerning videotapes or audiotapes?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. So to your knowledge, Ms. Torkelson had no involvement in that process at all, to your knowledge?
Answer. She did not—if she was involved, she did not share it with me.
Question. I understand. And to the extent that there was any inquiry by any congressional staffer, I think, for example, Mr. Bucklin from the Senate committee, to your knowledge, did Ms. Torkelson have any interaction with Mr. Bucklin?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Directing your attention to the White House Military Office, and the relationship it has with the White House Communications Agency, WHCA, I believe that you prepared the OER, or what is known as the officer evaluation report, for the commander of WHCA; is that correct?
Answer. The officer evaluation report for the commander of WHCA is signed by the Chief of Staff to the President of the United States.
Page 1625 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Who prepares the OER?
Answer. I do, that's correct.
Question. So in terms of, for example, Colonel Simmons, Jake Simmons is the commander of WHCA?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Then you are responsible for preparing his OER that you then submit to the Chief of Staff; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Have you prepared an OER yet for Colonel Simmons?
Answer. Yes.
Question. I guess you would have in the last 3 years—they are prepared annually. So when was the last time you prepared that?
Answer. I don't recollect; certainly within the last year.
Question. Then are you the one that provides the mission statement, in military jargon, or the tasking for WHCA with respect to orders to Colonel Simmons?
Page 1626 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I provide the taskings. I do not provide the details in how to accomplish those taskings.
Question. In terms of the tasking, with what frequency do you provide tasking orders to Colonel Simmons?
Answer. Daily, through a variety of mechanisms.
Question. Do you have daily contact with Colonel Simmons?
Answer. As needed.
Question. And so is it fair to state that Colonel Simmons reports directly to you, and that his marching orders each day are received from you?
Answer. His marching orders—it is fair to say that he has—he and I have a very close working relationship. It is equally fair to say that the routine events that go on daily throughout the White House and that require support from WHCA do not require me to tell him to read the schedule. Nor does it require him to read the schedule, because he has people that read the schedule in their functional areas who just go about and do it. So he and I wind up talking about nonroutine events.
Question. And again, you would probably have a daily contact with him in some form?
Page 1627 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Absolutely.
Question. Where is your office located in relation to his office?
Answer. My office is in the East Wing of the White House. His office is in building 399 Naval Station Anacostia, Southeast, District of Columbia.
Question. So most of your communications would either be by telephone or e-mail?
Answer. The vast majority are telephonic.
Question. Are there any communications by electronic mail?
Answer. We do have e-mail.
Question. Do you communicate with Colonel Feldman by means of e-mail?
Answer. I communicate with Colonel Simmons by e-mail.
Question. Colonel Simmons, excuse me. By e-mail?
Page 1628 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I do.
Question. Now, with respect to the White House taping operations, audiovisual and what have you, do you have personal knowledge of those taping operations? Are you familiar with them?
Answer. I am now.
Question. I guess you are. And when did you gain knowledge of the taping operations?
Answer. It is—let me answer that in a—I gained knowledge incrementally about WHCA generally and each of its functional areas over time as I spent time there. From day one I received briefings about what they did. So I was certainly aware of the existence of an outfit that was videotaping the Presidency, as it had done for numerous Presidencies. That was formerly an independent organization and was only brought into WHCA at approximately the time that I arrived.
Question. Well, let me follow up on that if I can. In terms of the operations of WHCA and the taping operations, when you first arrived in October of 1994, what was your understanding of the role performed by WHCA at that time?
Answer. Provide—my understanding was framed by the mission statements that had been formulated in 1962 that established the White House Communications Agency as a field activity, and the updates to the mission statement. I cannot quote them to you but broadly, if I may summarize it.
Page 1629 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Sure.
Answer. It is essentially to provide all forms of electronic, audiovisual and other sorts of telecommunications support to the President, the Vice President and the Office of the President, and related staff, and the National Security Council.
Question. And ultimately, you learned that essentially this White House Communications Agency would tape the President on essentially a daily basis, correct?
Answer. I was aware that they—of the existence of that unit right from day one.
Question. And with respect to the extent of their activities, when did you learn that WHCA essentially tapes every day in the life of the President?
Answer. I would not subscribe to a specific date when that thought crossed my mind, but I understood that their mission—the unit was formerly called the White House TV, and I was initially confused by that. And I don't really suppose it sank in as to what they actually did until I went on several trips and just sort of saw how things worked.
Question. And what did you observe with respect to how things worked?
Answer. They taped all open events that were—that had the media present, and I saw them taping other events where the media was not present.
Page 1630 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. In terms of closed events?
Answer. Yes.
Question. I was going to ask you this later, but let me just get into this now, if I can. Who ordered—who determined whether an event was a closed event or an opened event?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. That wasn't your decision to make?
Answer. Not at all.
Question. And then there would be tape recording of open events, and there would also be tape recording of closed events also, correct?
Answer. Some.
Question. There would be some. Who would determine which closed events were taped and which ones were not?
Answer. Well, at the time I didn't know. I have recently learned who is responsible for that decision.
Page 1631 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Who is responsible for that decision?
Answer. A civilian aide to the President. His name is Steven Goodin, G-O-O-D-I-N or E-N.
Question. And Mr. Goodin then, to your knowledge, makes the determination presently as to whether or not an event is an open event or closed event?
Answer. I do not know about that. I do know he makes the determination as to whether White House TV records a specific event or not.
Question. Whether WHCA records?
Answer. Yes, correct.
Question. So, in other words, Mr. Goodin will then be the one to determine whether or not the cameras for WHCA are turned on or off essentially?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And how long has he had that responsibility?
Answer. I don't know. I would infer it is an inherent part of his job.
Page 1632 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And how long has he had his position?
Answer. I would estimate 2 years.
Question. Do you know who would have had the position prior to Mr. Goodin?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And who would that be?
Answer. Andrew Friendly, like Friendly's Ice Cream.
Question. And where is Mr. Friendly employed now?
Answer. He still works in the Executive Office of the President.
Question. And do you know how long he had that position?
Answer. I think from January 20th, 1993, until he was replaced by Steven Goodin.
Question. So you believe Mr. Friendly, and then succeeded by Mr. Goodin, those two individuals would have been the ones to determine whether or not WHCA was going to record an event?
Page 1633 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Be it a closed event or an open event?
Answer. I would say that in terms of an open event, the question was never addressed. I think the presumption was that WHCA would record all open events. The questions would be which closed events would WHCA record.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I am sorry. We are talking about open and closed to the press; not opened and closed to the public; is that correct?
The WITNESS. When we say open and closed, that is in reference to press coverage.
It is—I am sorry. I got distracted there.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. In terms of, Mr. McLaughlin asked—pursuant to my understanding, Mr. McLaughlin can interject questions. In terms of following up on that, in terms of closed or open events, you said there were closed or open to the press, not necessarily to the public?
Answer. In the context of this deposition, I—when we use the term opened and closed, I am using it open to the press and closed to the press. By press, I mean the media that distributes the images of the President at large.
Page 1634 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. With respect to a closed event that is closed to the press, what kind of event would be closed to the press but open to the public?
Answer. Meetings with heads of state, meetings with groups.
Question. I guess my follow-up question is in terms of meetings with heads of state, the press is really the public in a sense. And if a meeting with a head of state is closed to the press, I don't know that I as a member of the public could walk in and say, I would like to sit in and observe this meeting with a head of state. So I am not really sure what the distinction is between closed to the press or closed to the public.
Answer. Well, let me give you an example that may help frame it.
Question. Okay. Sure.
Answer. Sometimes on the schedule when the President lands at a military airfield, the schedule will say closed to the public, but the media are with us, and they are filming the President getting off the airplane. So there is an event that is closed to the public but open to the press.
Question. And I guess my question is: Can you frame one to me that is closed to the press but open to the public?
Answer. No.
Page 1635 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. So really the matter of being closed to the press—essentially, closed to the press is closed to the public, correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Now, in terms of determining whether or not an event was closed or opened, you indicated that you weren't certain whether Mr. Goodin made that determination.
Answer. I have been told by the audiovisual people that Mr. Goodin does make that determination. They meet with him in the morning and go over the schedule and say, what events are we going to cover or not cover?
Question. And once that determination is made, in terms of whether or not an event is closed or open, when that decision is made, is—is that decision communicated to you and then you communicate it to Colonel Simmons, or is it communicated directly to Colonel Simmons?
Answer. It is communicated directly to the chief petty officer of the United States Navy that's running the camera.
Question. Again, to follow up, a decision is made in terms of whether an event is closed or open, and they don't go through—whoever it is, Mr. Goodin or whoever makes that determination, does not go through you?
Page 1636 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. And, to your knowledge, he doesn't go through Colonel Simmons?
Answer. No. This is a retail question, and Colonel Simmons and I deal at wholesale.
Question. And in terms of dealing on the retail level, not the wholesale level, to pick up your metaphor, essentially then Mr. Goodin can make a determination pretty much on the spot with the audiovisual people whether it's going to be taped and whether it's closed or open?
Answer. Yes, sir, that's correct.
Question. And it can be done in a matter of just his—it isn't like a lot of paperwork is done with it. He verbally says, this is closed, or, this is open, and either we are or we are not going to tape; is that basically correct?
Answer. Let me amplify that. The process as explained to me by the chief petty officer who runs this unit is that they meet daily with the President's aide. They go over the schedule, and they make a determination as to which events will be filmed by WHCA—taped, excuse me, taped by WHCA. The question as to opened and closed is not a question that is germane to the audiovisual unit in the sense of decision-making.
Page 1637 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
If an event is open, it is presumed that the White House Communications Agency will videotape it. If an event is closed, that's when a decision—closed to the media—that's when a decision will be made.
Question. And with respect to that decision being made, is that decision made in writing through——
Answer. No.
Question. It is just a verbal decision that's communicated to the video people, correct?
Answer. Yes. It is a three-person huddle. You have the aide, you have the man with the camera, and you have the man with the boom microphone.
Question. And the names of those people would—for example, in terms of understanding the three people who huddle, presently would Mr. Goodin be one of the three people who huddles?
Answer. Yes.
Question. He would huddle with what other two people?
Answer. The assigned person with the camera and the assigned person with the microphone.
Page 1638 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And you believe Mr. Friendly, prior to Mr. Goodin, would have the same role to play?
Answer. I would conclude that.
Question. I understand.
Answer. I have no reason to—I have no facts to base that on.
Question. I understand.
With respect to WHCA taking orders from your office on day-to-day instructions, then, does your—does your office determine specifically which events the audiovisual crews should record?
Answer. No.
Question. Again, that is part of the three-person huddle, I guess, in terms of that decision being made?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. In other words, am I correct in understanding that you believe that absent some special circumstances, any event that's an open event would automatically be videotaped and recorded by WHCA?
Page 1639 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Do you keep any records of the political, as opposed to nonpolitical, events which the audiovisual crew records?
Answer. No.
Question. And do you know whether or not there are any records which distinguish between political and nonpolitical events kept by the White House?
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I am sorry. I don't think I understood that question.
Mr. BENNETT. I will repeat it.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Do you know whether or not there are records that distinguish between political and nonpolitical events recorded by any audiovisual crew of WHCA?
Answer. The records are not organized on that basis. They have a chronological and topical log of the filming. Recollect—I feel compelled to point out that the purpose of the audiovisual unit is to provide a chronology of the Presidency and all the activities that the President will permit to be videotaped. And so, therefore, it is not parsed in terms of political or nonpolitical or even anything else. It is not even parsed in terms of any other dimension. It is a chronology. It is a video vacuum cleaner of the Presidency; no more, no less.
Page 1640 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And those crews, in terms of the video vacuum cleaner, those crews pretty much operate, I think you indicated, on a daily basis?
Answer. Yes. Not only that, they are in shifts so that they are available for work from the time the President wakes up until the time the President goes to bed.
Question. And with respect to you indicating what the President permits to be videotaped, do you have any knowledge in terms of communications between the President and Mr. Goodin, and previous to Mr. Goodin, Mr. Friendly, in terms of any decision-making made by the President himself in terms of what is going to be videotaped?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Okay. You don't—you don't know the basis upon which Mr. Goodin and, prior to him, Mr. Friendly, will make a determination about whether the cameras are turned on or off?
Answer. No, I do not.
Question. Directing your attention, just quickly, if I can, just on an adjunct matter, Mr. Sullivan, just so I understand the background on this, I think last year the Inspector General at the Department of Defense was doing an audit of the White House Communications Agency; is that correct?
Page 1641 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's very—that's correct. We are very proud of the results of that. I wish other organizations in government could do as well.
Question. Without getting into the merits of that, I am just trying to verify, have you previously testified before this committee?
Answer. No.
Question. Last year?
Answer. No.
Question. And were you asked to do so?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And on how many occasions were you asked to do so?
Answer. I am only aware of one.
Question. And what was the basis of your not appearing before the committee?
Answer. The basis was that it is an oversight hearing, and White House officials, political appointees, do not appear before committees on oversight issues.
Page 1642 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. So basically that determination not to appear was not necessarily yours made alone; it was made by your superiors?
Answer. It is consistent with the policy. I did not—the decision was just simply made based upon the standing guidance of the White House counsel.
Question. And essentially, you followed the advice of White House counsel in terms of not appearing then? It isn't that you made that summary decision yourself?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Okay. With respect to these taping operations of WHCA, the daily taping operations, how often do you attend these taping sessions?
Answer. The only time I would ever see this crew is if I am at an event at which the President is located. How——
Question. If the President is not there, it is not to be taped and you are not there, so it would not be that you have any regular interaction with these audiovisual crews then?
Answer. I have very little interaction with them, except when I am riding on Air Force One, I go back into the cheap seats and chat with them about life. That is my most regular interaction with them, ask them how the Cokes are.
Page 1643 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And Air Force One is one of those agencies underneath your command; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. In terms of preparing for this deposition, and then we will go over the matter of the subpoena itself that gives rise to this inquiry, other than your attorney Colonel Sparks, with whom have you discussed this deposition?
Answer. Nobody.
Question. Have you discussed the taking of this deposition with any other person other than Colonel Sparks?
Answer. The taking of this deposition? My wife.
Question. Who at the White House notified you that you would have to come forward for a deposition?
Answer. Colonel Sparks.
Question. At any time did Mr. Ruff or anybody from Mr. Ruff's office contact you about a deposition being taken?
Page 1644 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. And have at any time you discussed the taking of this deposition with any representatives of any Members of Congress?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you yourself reviewed the videotapes and any of the documents with respect to the videotapes or the audiotapes with any individuals?
Answer. Nope.
Question. Have you ever seen any of these videotapes?
Answer. The snippets on the news, the evening news. That's the extent of my viewing.
Question. To the extent that videotapes have been turned over to investigators either from the Senate or the House, you yourself have not seen any of those tapes?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you had any involvement with the preparation of these tapes or production pursuant to subpoenas issued by both the Senate and the House?
Page 1645 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No direct involvement. I have certainly been made aware that this has been going on. It has been a major crash, if you will, for the White House Communications Agency to dig all these things out of the archives. My—for completeness, let me say I did receive a phone call saying from the National Archives they had experienced a power outage, and would I please contact them and get it fixed quickly so we could finish retrieving the tapes.
Question. When did the National Archives receive a—experience a power outage?
Answer. This past weekend, Monday, Sunday.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of any of the editing with respect to any of these videotapes?
Answer. None.
Question. Do you have—have you discussed or heard of any editing of the tapes with anyone?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge—do you have any knowledge of anyone altering, changing or destroying any videotapes taken by WHCA?
Page 1646 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge as to who would have had custody, and perhaps you can explain, who would have had custody of any and all videotapes and audiotapes taken by WHCA since 1992—well, since January 1993, since President Clinton arrived in office?
Answer. The—I can only describe the methods that are used by the audiovisual people to handle the tapes because there are probably thousands of tapes. So I cannot vouch for the handling of any particular tape. However, the method——
Question. Can you tell me what the procedure is?
Answer. The procedure is they take the videotapes.
Question. ''They'' meaning the visual crew of WHCA?
Answer. The audiovisual crew would take the tapes. They will record the tapes. They go back to their office. They create a log of what is on the tape, or catalog the tape, if you will. They put it in a box that is stored in their office, and periodically that box is carted to the National Archives and placed in temporary storage at the National Archives. The aim is that they will eventually wind up in whatever repository is created for the Presidency.
To the best of my knowledge, this is the same procedure they have used for every administration that they have done this for.
Page 1647 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And do you know the time frame pursuant to which the tapes, either be they visual or audio, are kept there at the offices of WHCA before going to the National Archives?
Answer. I don't know the precise time frame. It is measured in weeks, not months; possibly days.
Question. And to the extent that anyone wants to review any particular tape in the custody of WHCA or in the National Archives, is there a log of anyone who wants to review the tape?
Answer. I don't know. I do know that they do not permit the original tapes to leave their hands.
Question. ''They,'' so I understand?
Answer. The White House Communications Agency audiovisual unit does not permit the original tape to leave their custody.
Question. Until they give it to Archives?
Answer. Correct, until they give it to the Archives.
Question. Once it goes to Archives, do you know the procedure with respect to anyone wanting to view the original at the Archives?
Page 1648 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I do not know.
Question. Do you know the name of the person who is responsible for the custody at the Archives?
Answer. No.
Question. In terms of the individual responsible at WHCA, would that be Colonel Simmons or one of his designees?
Answer. Ultimately, it is Colonel Simmons. As a practical matter, it is Chief Petty Officer McGrath, who is the head of the audiovisual filming crew.
Question. Is McGrath; M, small C, G-R-A-T-H?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And how long has he been in that position; do you know?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. With respect to the matter of logs, again, and review of tapes and the originals, if anyone, say, today wanted to go and review an original of a videotape taken by WHCA, what would be the procedure within the White House if someone wanted to review the original?
Page 1649 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Who would know?
Answer. WHCA may know.
Question. Okay. And you believe Colonel Simmons might know?
Answer. He might. Either he or counsel. I—I am unable to answer this because I don't believe we have ever had a request to review originals. I believe that the process has always been to make a duplicate and hand it to the requester.
Question. Let me ask that. In terms of making a copy of the original and handing it to the requester, what is the mechanism as to that? Is a log kept of that?
Answer. Yes, I believe so. I believe so.
Question. And you believe the log is kept by WHCA?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Is it fair to state then that at any point in time, if anyone, be they the President or anyone at the White House, a counsel, a Member of Congress, if anyone wanted to review either the original or receive a copy of the original, is it your belief that there would be some type of log kept with respect to the particular person requesting to review the original or a copy of the original?
Page 1650 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. It is my belief. I have not investigated or made certain of the facts in that matter.
Question. I understand. But to the best of your knowledge, there would be such a log?
Answer. It would seem reasonable.
Question. So that there would be a record with respect to anyone reviewing those tapes?
Answer. Yes. The quality of that record I would not vouch for.
Question. And why would that be?
Answer. Because as we sit in this large room, my audiovisual—WHCA's audiovisual unit that does this consists of about seven enlisted people who film this stuff, catalog it, ship it and then commute to Fredericksburg. And by the way, they travel, too.
Question. I am sorry? They what?
Answer. They travel, too. I have 800 people in South America as we speak.
Question. For the record, the President being in South America?
Page 1651 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. In support of the President's trip to South America.
So this is an organization which is devoid of lawyers and public affairs people, but is—understand their core mission, which is to videotape the Presidency and to safeguard the tapes.
Question. And in terms of safeguarding the tapes, picking up on that, with respect to the log of keeping a record of whoever reviews the tapes, those—for example, today, those seven people who were there, what would be the names of those seven people? I may have asked you before. I am sorry. I am not sure I did.
Answer. I only know the head of—the name of——
Question. That's Chief Petty Officer McGrath?
Answer. McGrath, right.
Question. What is his first name?
Answer. I don't know. Chief.
Mr. BENNETT. Colonel Sparks, I gather you could perhaps find out for me and let us know?
Page 1652 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Colonel SPARKS. I think we may have supplied it already to Ms. Comstock.
Mr. BENNETT. Do you have it?
Ms. COMSTOCK. I think so, yes.
Colonel SPARKS. I can't remember myself. Afterwards, we can talk about it.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It is on the list.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Now, Mr. Sullivan, do you have any knowledge of any splicing or cutting of WHCA tapes?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you have any knowledge of any video or audiotapes made of any telephone calls from Air Force One or Marine One?
Answer. Video or audiotapes?
Question. Yes, from Air Force One or Marine One, or any other vehicles used by the President or Vice President or members of their family.
Page 1653 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Colonel SPARKS. Excuse me. Dick, is the question—could you state the question again?
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. I will try to go back, if I can, John, to the—Mr. Sullivan indicated those agencies under his command for the White House Military Office, and they include——
Answer. Yes.
Question. What you—the acronym is Air Force One, correct?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Obviously the deposition doesn't pick up a nod of the head.
Answer. Yes.
Question. And Marine One? Again, yes?
Answer. Yes.
Page 1654 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Okay. And then Camp David, and I gather all the vehicles and associated—be they flight or motor vehicle?
Answer. Yes, everything except the Secret Service limousines.
Question. Now, in terms of the Secret Service limousines, they don't fall within the province of your office?
Answer. They do not.
Question. And do you know who has records with respect to—well, strike that.
If there are any phone calls made from limousines, they would be within the purview of the Secret Service records, correct?
Answer. No, that's not correct.
Question. All right. Who would have those records?
Answer. We would—the White House Communications Agency would have any records.
Question. So, again, if there are any telephone calls and video or audiotapes with respect to limousines of the Secret Service, that would still be in the custody of WHCA; is that correct?
Page 1655 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct. The White House Communications Agency installs communications equipment and maintains it inside the limousines.
Question. And clearly, with respect to Air Force One and Marine One, to the extent that there are any video or audiotapes, that would also be in the custody of WHCA, correct?
Answer. Yes, that's correct. I would like to amplify that, if I might.
Question. Go ahead.
Answer. To the best of my knowledge, we do not record conversations of the President of the United States. Nor do we videotape conversations of the President of the United States. There have been, at various moments, media permitted to observe the President making telephone calls; typically, to the winning coaches of the Super Bowl and similar events. But we—the White House Communications Agency and the White House Military Office does not make a practice of videotaping or recording anybody's telephone calls, that I am aware of.
Now, there may be a—I exclude from that specifically head of state calls coordinated through the National Security Council which may require—may involve recording.
Question. I am sorry. Just one second.
Page 1656 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Do—I gather that still photographs fall within the purview of the White House Communications Agency?
Answer. The White House Communications Agency provides the film developing and the equipment.
Question. Do they handle the framing of photographs taken of persons who come visit the President?
Answer. We do not frame. That was stopped in 1993.
Question. What do you do? You just provide the photograph itself and just forward it to an individual?
Answer. We provide the print to the Photo Office.
Question. And with respect to personal trips of the President, again, given the taping of the President on a daily basis in terms of the historical chronology of his Presidency, those trips would be taped as well, correct?
Answer. Yes. We would send the photographers along.
Question. To your knowledge——
Answer. Excuse me, videotapers along.
Page 1657 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Videotapers.
Correct me if I am wrong. Just about every day in the life of the President is taped, correct?
Answer. It—yes, that's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. Just for the record, Mr. Sparks was providing a note to the witness, for the record.
The WITNESS. Yes, I understand the question. Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Every day in the life of the President is taped, correct?
Answer. Yes. There may be some exceptions. Perhaps when he is at Camp David, they may or may not. I don't know. I am not invited.
Question. I understand. But to your knowledge, you believe that absent some special circumstance, every day in the life of the President is taped?
Answer. That's correct.
Page 1658 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. In terms of the subpoena process and request, how many subpoenas have you been required to deal with?
Answer. I have never seen a subpoena.
Question. You are about to see one before we are finished today; not one to you. For the record, we are laughing again.
I am going to show you the one that is the subject of this deposition. But do you generally get involved in the subpoena process in any way?
Answer. No.
Question. Is this—how many times has your deposition been taken?
Answer. My deposition?
Question. Yes, such as this.
Colonel SPARKS. For these issues.
The WITNESS. This is my second deposition.
Page 1659 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Okay. Apart from the Senate having—I gather the Senate took your deposition?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Apart from the Senate and the House having taken depositions with respect to the matter of the White House videotapes, has your deposition ever been taken before?
Answer. No.
Question. And with respect to the matter of subpoenas and compliance with subpoenas, have you ever been involved with respect to the process of complying with a subpoena to the White House?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. What was the nature of those subpoenas?
Answer. I have—I have been requested to search for documents via memoranda from the Counsel's Office.
Question. And they would be on a variety of topics?
Page 1660 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Yes. And those memoranda did not normally indicate to which client we were responding. From my point of view, it was the counsel requesting.
Question. I understand. And you—to the extent that you were involved in document production, you would make those documents available to White House counsel?
Answer. Absolutely.
Question. Exactly what would you—if you can describe your role in the document production process when it has arisen.
Answer. Very well. First the request is submitted to—excuse me, circulated from the Office of Counsel, normally to all White House staff and members of the Executive Office of the President. Upon my—it would be distributed through the normal distribution channels.
Question. What are the normal distribution channels?
Answer. Courier, in-box, out-box, that kind of thing.
Question. I guess my question, to follow up sort of on your summary, are there certain people who gather documents in the West Wing or other offices in terms of complying with the subpoena?
Page 1661 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I don't know.
Question. Okay. Then going back to the process in terms of your involvement, exactly what do you do once you are asked to assist White House counsel in compliance with the subpoena?
Answer. Well, we get the document request, and then I distribute it to 10 different unit commanders and request that they search their own files, comply with the request, provide us with—provide my office with the results of their search. I collate the products, which is to say I staple them together, and put a memo on top to White House counsel and say, here is what we found.
Question. And again, we are not directing your specific attention to the subpoena question. We will get there in a few minutes. But just in terms of the normal process, do you know who actually accepts a subpoena at the White House once it is delivered?
Answer. No.
Question. And you don't know who logs it in?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. And do you know who assigns the response in terms of decisions made in terms of complying with the subpoena?
Page 1662 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. And do you know the names of other people who are generally involved in document production in terms of that checklist I think you made reference to, who generally would be on the list in terms of being involved in document production as a general rule of any subpoena delivered to the White House?
Answer. As a general rule, I would assume it would be the heads of all the separate offices that make up the—that make up the White House.
Question. And how many separate offices are there?
Answer. I don't know. Lots.
Question. When you have to retrieve any documents that fall within your purview of the White House Military Office, how are those documents sent to your office?
Answer. They are normally brought over by people who are making courier runs from the various units to my office.
Question. And does anyone catalog any documents delivered to your office in terms of compliance with the subpoena?
Page 1663 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. For example, is there Bates—what is known as Bates stamping that goes on?
Answer. No.
Question. You essentially will give the documents to White House Counsel's Office, and then the White House Counsel's Office will be responsible for stamping or documenting?
Answer. I have only been asked to come up with material that is considered responsive, and the criteria is outlined very explicitly, and so we do a search. We collect the pieces of paper, and we just put them together.
Question. So you don't necessarily catalog the documents by office?
Answer. No, not at all.
Question. Do any interns become involved in this process?
Answer. We don't use interns in the Military Office due to security clearance problems.
Page 1664 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. To your knowledge, do people send in memos explaining the documents or describing what the documents contain?
Answer. No. They normally produce the—they have always produced the actual document.
Question. Do you know the distinction between a document request as opposed to a subpoena?
Answer. I have a layman's understanding.
Question. And what would your understanding be?
Answer. Subpoenas, you got to do it.
Question. What about document requests?
Answer. You got to do it. Well, you got to do it if you value continued employment.
Question. Do people sign forms in the White House in terms of attesting to searches of their files?
Answer. When I forward the results of my document request—or, excuse me, of counsel's document request to the counsel, I'm certifying for my whole organization that we've conducted a search.
Page 1665 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Again, in terms of forms, do people who are searching their respective files or offices, do they sign forms in any fashion to indicate what they have done?
Answer. I have not directed it.
Question. You yourself do that?
Answer. We're organized in a military hierarchy so that things flow from bottom to top when we're responding. So I would assume that each unit commander, when they receive a document request from me, farms it out to each of the areas inside his or her own organization that has databases and that the custodians of those databases or logs or files would search it for the materials that are responsive, send it to their unit commander, who would pull it together, send it to my office, which would put together the responses from all 10 of the units as well as the results of our own search inside our own office files, and then we would put the whole thing together with a memorandum from me to the counsel.
Question. Who ensures compliance office by office?
Answer. At what level?
Question. Say at your level. Ultimately you are the one who is responsible for assuring compliance in the White House military organization, the military office; correct?
Page 1666 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And is the subpoena itself—again, in terms of normal procedure, is the subpoena itself sent around to the respective White House offices?
Answer. I have not seen any subpoenas.
Question. Then in terms of definitions, in the definitional section of a subpoena, for example, as in this case the definition of ''records'' as defined in the subpoena, how do people know which records to provide if there's no definitional section with respect to records forwarded?
Answer. The White House Military Office is not an organization of lawyers, and we do not spend time worrying about terms. There is a military specialty called records clerk who is normally a 19-year-old person.
Question. Is normally a what?
Answer. A 19-year-old person. And that person knows what a record is, and he or she has probably never seen a subpoena. So I would say that we use a layman's construct of what constitutes a record.
Question. And the subpoena itself, or the covering sheet for the subpoena, then, is not routinely forwarded to your office?
Page 1667 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. If you have questions over the scope of the term ''records,'' what would you ordinarily do?
Answer. I have never had a question, so. I would search all materials that were responsive.
Question. Do you have any knowledge in terms of the breakdown, in terms of complying with the response to the Senate as opposed to the House or, for that matter, the Department of Justice? Are there different people assigned to respond depending upon the source of the subpoena?
Answer. No.
Question. So to your knowledge, in terms of responding to different investigations, there's no separation in terms of people assigned to make the response?
Answer. We don't even—my office and the people in my organization don't even know the source of the request other than it's from the White House Counsel's Office. So it would be impossible for them to respond selectively for one investigative body compared to another.
To the best of my knowledge, every search has been undertaken in precisely the same way. We've done 12 of these things in the past 8 months.
Page 1668 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And do you know what agencies have requested those 12 searches?
Answer. Nope. I'm getting a clue.
Question. In terms of the matter of the production logs, and as I understand it, and if I am wrong, you yourself do not prepare a production log at the White House Military Office?
Answer. What is a production log?
Question. For example, whatever materials you gather—I thought I understood you to say a few minutes ago that whatever materials you gather you then send to the White House Counsel's Office.
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And you yourself do not Bates stamp or keep a record of the documents you send over to the White House Counsel's Office?
Answer. I don't know what ''Bates stamp'' means.
Question. For example, if we sent over the pages on this table here at the deposition, we would number them, say, P–1, P–2, P–3 through P–100, and then we would keep a log that on a particular day from this table we produced 100 pieces of paper, and we would have them numbered.
Page 1669 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Does your office do that when it sends material over to the White House Counsel's Office?
Answer. No. We keep a photocopy of what we send, though. We photostat the original memorandum I'm sending to the White House Counsel's Office and photostat the submissions.
Question. So, then, whereas you don't number it, you keep a copy of whatever you would send to Mr. Ruff's offices as counsel to the President?
Answer. Yes, with several exceptions. I have been asked to produce manifests of Air Force I and Marine I dating from January 20th. Those records are several feet long, so we did not put a copy of those in the files.
Question. But to the extent that the volume of material is——
Answer. Reasonable?
Question [continuing]. Reasonable, you will keep copies of whatever you submit to Mr. Ruff's office?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And where are those copies kept?
Page 1670 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. In my office.
Question. And they are still presently in your office?
Answer. Somewhere around there, yes.
Question. And is it safe to say any such records you have turned over to Mr. Ruff, other than voluminous records which you could not photocopy, you would have photocopies in your office of those records since you began your employment in October of 1994?
Answer. I hope so.
Question. You have no involvement then on determining what documents may or may not be asserted as being privileged, obviously?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever directly consulted with the President or the Vice President with respect to the production of any records?
Answer. Never.
Question. You have dealt strictly with the White House Counsel's Office?
Page 1671 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Yes, and that has normally been the form of just responding to the memorandum as received.
Question. And with whom have you dealt in the White House Counsel's Office?
Answer. Wendy White and Cheryl Mills.
Question. And have you dealt with Mr. Michael Imbroscio?
Answer. No.
Question. Anyone else besides Wendy White and Cheryl Mills?
Answer. No.
Question. Have you dealt directly with Mr. Breuer or Mr. Ruff with respect to such production?
Answer. I have never seen Mr. Breuer or Mr. Ruff or talked to them on the phone.
Question. To this day, Mr. Sullivan, have you ever met or spoken to Chuck Ruff?
Page 1672 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Never met him.
Question. And to this day, have you ever met or spoken with Lanny Breuer?
Answer. Never met him.
Question. So, then, again, the total contact you have with the White House Counsel's Office is with Cheryl Mills and Wendy White?
Answer. Yes, and of course Wendy White has since departed, and her and my capacity with her was 100 percent revolved around the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee's inquiry into the WHCA organization.
Question. Last year?
Answer. Last year.
Question. And with respect to Cheryl Mills, with what frequency have you dealt with Ms. Mills?
Answer. Sporadically.
Question. When was the first time you spoke with Ms. Mills in connection with the matter of the White House videotapes that causes us to be here today?
Page 1673 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Sometime during October 1997.
Question. You did not speak with her in August or September?
Answer. No.
Question. And what was the nature of your conversation with Cheryl Mills when you spoke with her in October of 1997?
Colonel SPARKS. Let me just ask this. I am not certain whether privilege issues are about to come up between the White House Counsel folks and anyone they would have talked to about this. Let me ask you where you are going to go with that.
Mr. BENNETT. I was going to go into the particular conversations with respect to compliance with the subpoena and production.
Colonel SPARKS. All right.
Mr. BENNETT. And just for the record, Ms. Comstock advised me yesterday, at the deposition of Michael Imbroscio, no privilege issues had been raised with respect to this discussion, nor has Mr. Ruff raised the issue with me. So I believe in terms of the nature of my inquiry, your client can answer.
Colonel SPARKS. Certainly.
Page 1674 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Hold on. Are you making a representation that, to the best of your knowledge, the White House doesn't intend to assert privilege?
Mr. BENNETT. To my knowledge, in terms of asking personnel at the White House what they did with respect to compliance with the subpoena, the White House is not intending to assert privilege.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I am not arguing, I am asking. Is that based on a conversation or simply the experience of no privileges being asserted yesterday?
Mr. BENNETT. No; it is based on my conversation with Mr. Ruff last Friday and his indicating full cooperation with respect to White House personnel specifically on the matter of how the subpoena was—that there was an effort to comply with the subpoena.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Just so we are clear, did he make representation to you as to whether or not privilege issues had been asserted?
Mr. BENNETT. It didn't come up. He specifically told me that his office would completely cooperate and the personnel would come forward and answer any and all questions concerning the matter of efforts to comply with the March 4, 1997, subpoena.
And I don't really believe I'm about to get into privilege issues anyway, and it seems clear that is why these people are being produced for depositions.
Page 1675 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Colonel SPARKS. I understand.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Mr. Sullivan, when, to your knowledge, was the first time you spoke with—let me step back from October of '97 and move forward.
I gather you spoke with Ms. Mills in October, this month, with respect to the matter of the videotapes?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Prior to speaking with Ms. Mills this month, and, again, did Ms. Mills take the place of Wendy White, to your knowledge?
Answer. No.
Question. Wendy White is no longer employed there at the White House Counsel's Office?
Answer. She no longer is.
Question. When was the last time she was employed there?
Answer. I don't know.
Page 1676 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. Just a rough time period; several months? A year ago?
Answer. I would hazard to guess a year ago.
Question. With respect to Cheryl Mills, you indicated as the only other person from White House Counsel's Office with whom you have communicated. Prior to speaking with her this month concerning the videotapes, when was the last time you had spoken with Ms. Mills?
Answer. I can't remember. A long time.
Question. Several months?
Answer. At least.
Question. Certainly prior to the beginning of the summer?
Answer. I think so, yes.
Question. What was the nature of the conversation and the topic of the conversation, your first conversation, with Ms. Mills this month, in October of 1997?
Answer. She called me and said that, National Archives was having a power outage; can you help get the power turned back on so we can get the videotapes up to have them reviewed?
Page 1677 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. And I gather you responded to that?
Answer. I tried to.
Question. Were you able to turn on the power at the National Archives?
Answer. I was told it was a scheduled power outage and would I just relax.
Question. How many other conversations have you had with Ms. Mills apart from that one?
Answer. We have had several subsequent to that, and they revolved around the issue of—not the issue, but she and I both have agreed to do a very powerful search of all the databases inside the White House Communications Agency. That task is under way now.
Question. And what is the nature of that search?
Answer. Searching against all search terms that are possible. It is the universe of all prior searches and then some, using Boolean operators and root directories and computer technicians to get information.
Question. Did Ms. Mills ever speak to you in terms of the definition of records, including videotapes, that were subpoenaed?
Page 1678 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. Have you ever had any conversation with Ms. Mills concerning the scope of a subpoena, including videotapes?
Answer. No, I have never discussed a subpoena with Ms. Mills in my life.
Question. I believe you indicated that you have, I think you used the number 12—on 12 other occasions you have dealt with document production in connection with the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight of the House of Representatives?
Answer. No, I don't believe I said that. What I said was, I believe I have responded to 12 requests for data searches, document searches, in the last 8 months.
Question. In the last 8 months, and they were in——
Answer. Over a period of 8 months, correct. Strike that; over a period of 8 months.
Question. And do you believe the number was 12?
Answer. I'm quite sure of that.
Question. And what gave rise to the request of 12?
Page 1679 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. 12 requests from the White House Counsel's Office.
Question. Do you know who was the source of those requests? Were they all from the House? The Senate? The Justice Department? Do you know?
Mr. BALLEN. This is the third time you have gone over this, Counsel.
The WITNESS. The source was either Jack Quinn or Charles Ruff.
Mr. BENNETT. I don't believe it is the third time. If it is, I apologize. The one who takes the deposition does not ordinarily continue to take notes at the same time, and I don't believe it is the third time, Mr. McLaughlin, and I apologize to the witness if it is.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Count in the transcript.
Mr. BENNETT. Colonel Sparks, do you have an objection to any of these questions?
Colonel SPARKS. I don't.
Mr. BENNETT. Thank you very much.
Page 1680 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. With respect to the subpoena itself, let me show you what has been marked as exhibit 1. Just looking at exhibit 1, I gather from what you have advised us thus far you have never seen this subpoena; is that correct?
Answer. That's correct.
[Sullivan Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.]
[Note.—All exhibits referred to may be found at end of deposition on p. 1043.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Is today the very first time that you have viewed this subpoena?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And if you look at the second page, schedule A?
Answer. Correct.
Question. You will see with respect to the definition of ''record or records,'' and without belaboring this point, I will just for your purposes, Mr. Sullivan, I will advise you that as of last Friday, in a meeting with Mr. Ruff, there didn't appear to be any question that the term ''record or records'' includes videotapes and audio recordings, and I am just allowing you to read it now because I gather you have not ever seen this document until day.
Page 1681 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct, I have not seen it until today.
Question. And I gather that in terms of all persons with whom you have discussed this subpoena—why don't you make sure I'm clear. And, again, if I have asked this question before—I don't believe I have specifically, but if I have, I apologize. I gather you have discussed the subpoena with Cheryl Mills?
Answer. I have not discussed this subpoena with Cheryl Mills.
Question. Have you discussed the subpoena with anyone?
Answer. I was not aware of the subpoena, the existence of the subpoena, until the beginning of this deposition.
Question. Until we started asking you questions this morning, you were not aware that there was this subpoena?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And you were not aware that the subpoena included the term, in terms of definitions, ''included the videotapes and audiotapes''?
Answer. Because I did not see the subpoena until this morning, I could not know what the contents of the subpoena would be, QED.
Page 1682 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. I guess my point is, you hadn't read about it in press accounts or anything else, is my question, prior to this morning?
For the record, Mr. Ruff was on national television last Sunday discussing the matter of some errors, and I'm just trying to understand the nature of your knowledge.
Answer. And I have yet to look at that show, because I was in church with my two boys and then went to play soccer afterwards.
Question. Again, you don't have any knowledge of the subpoena, period? No one has discussed it with you at the White House?
Answer. No. No. And let me just make this perfectly clear. I run an operational organization, and the process by which the all-consuming Washington business goes on is inherently boring to me. I'm much more interested in whether my airplanes are on time or not, so I don't—I'm not a news junkie on this stuff.
Question. Directing your attention, then, I can summarize for you, given you had not seen it before, in item 16 there is a request with respect to White House coffees. But, again, you would not have had any knowledge of that?
Answer. What is item 16, sir?
Question. Item 16 on the subpoena, sir. If you want to look at that.
Page 1683 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Do we have an item list? Yes.
Question. I think we do.
Answer. I see item 16.
Question. Again, no one ever discussed White House coffees with you?
Answer. I received a request that included the term ''coffees.''
Question. Let me show you what has been marked as exhibit 2, which in fact is a memorandum from Mr. Ruff that has been provided by the White House, which apparently is an April 28, 1997, memorandum that we have been advised was sent around in connection with this subpoena.
[Sullivan Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. The subpoena was, for your understanding, Mr. Sullivan, issued on March 4th of this year, and then Mr. Ruff's memorandum is April 28th. Have you seen this memorandum?
Page 1684 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I have seen the April 28th memorandum, exhibit 2.
Question. And do you recall when you first saw it?
Answer. I first saw it either April 28th or April 29th.
Question. And do you recall what steps you took once you received this memorandum?
Answer. Yes, I do recall.
Question. And what steps did you take, sir?
Answer. I scanned it, as I had its numerous predecessors, and I asked my staff to put it on the fax machine and send it to the 10 unit commanders. And then I'm told that we always put a hard copy in their out basket, in their mail distribution boxes, as well.
Question. And did you keep a copy of any covering sheet with respect to the fax?
Answer. Yes, I did.
Question. And would you still have a copy of that in your records?
Page 1685 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I have a copy that shows—yes, I do.
Mr. BENNETT. And, Colonel Sparks, we did not——
The WITNESS. Let me make a correction, for the record.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Sure.
Answer. That fax was signed out by my then chief of staff, Colonel, now Brigadier General, Jim Hawkins.
Question. And where is General Hawkins now stationed?
Answer. Grand Forks, North Dakota.
Question. He is not retired?
Answer. No.
Mr. BENNETT. Colonel Sparks, do you happen to have—we didn't ask for any document production with respect to the subpoena, but to the extent that you can get a copy of the covering sheet sent from Mr. Sullivan's office with respect to this memorandum, could you please make an effort to locate that and forward that to both Minority and Majority counsel?
Page 1686 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Colonel SPARKS. I can do that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Looking at this memorandum of April 28, 1997, Mr. Sullivan, do you recall reading it? I understand you get a lot of documents on your desk, but did you make an effort to read it?
Answer. I scanned it.
Question. Do you know if there is any reference there to videotapes in the memorandum from Mr. Ruff?
Answer. I am not aware of any reference to a videotape.
Question. Then I gather when you looked at this document in April of 1997, you personally had no knowledge of any request for videotapes?
Answer. We conducted a search on the terms that were in attachment A.
Question. To exhibit 2?
Answer. To exhibit 2 on the videotape directory.
Page 1687 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. I guess my specific question though, sir, was, you were not aware then in April that the subpoena issued by this committee on March 4, 1997, had included a request for videotapes?
Answer. I was not aware—no, I was not aware of that. But what I am saying is that we did not bypass the videotape archives in our searches, so therefore we obviously considered videotapes to be a potentially responsive form of record.
Question. I'm not sure if I understand that, in that how did you check these individuals?
Answer. I think they typed the names into the—it is an electronically maintained database, and they typed these people's names in to see if they got any hits; words search.
Question. I understand. In terms of whether or not they had been scheduled in the WAVE records at the White House or meetings or just who, and also the second page are corporations, are they not, they are entities, and I gather that was done?
Answer. Yes.
Question. But, again, in terms of any knowledge you had in April of 1997, you did not have any knowledge about seeking whether or not there were any videotapes of any of these people?
Page 1688 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I did not know—no, I did not have any specific knowledge of the media, but we were not media specific in our searches, we were request specific in our searches.
Question. Specifically, what I'm addressing your attention to is, again, I know you have indicated you prefer to not pay attention to the media as a political junkie may pay attention to it, but in a recent article in The Washington Post, I think dated Monday of this week, there is an indication that—first of all, do you know Steven Smith?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And he is? Who is he? What is his position?
Answer. He is the assistant operations officer, or operations officer at WHCA.
Question. And he comes underneath your command; correct?
Answer. Under Colonel Simmons' command.
Question. And Colonel Simmons comes under your command?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And Mr. Smith has indicated, or there is an indication in The Washington Post that Mr. Smith has sworn that he was never asked for any videotapes or other records of the controversial coffees until about 2 weeks ago.
Page 1689 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
In light of that statement by him, I am asking you if in April of 1997, based upon the memorandum you received from Mr. Ruff, did you have any specific understanding that you were to look for videotapes?
Answer. No, I did not have a specific understanding I was to look at videotapes any more than I had a specific understanding I was to look for audiotapes, to look for databases, to look at my message center, to look at my flight manifests, but I looked at all those things, as I did for every other search before and subsequent.
Question. And I guess my question, before I get to the matter of what information you sent on to WHCA, how was it that you would not become aware in April of 1998 of the existence of videotapes if you searched for videotapes with respect to the individuals and entities listed on the attachment to exhibit 2?
Answer. April 1998? I don't think we are there yet, sir.
Question. I'm sorry, April 1997. Excuse me.
Answer. I'm sorry, I focused on——
Question. If it is a poorly phrased question, I will rephrase it.
Answer. I lost track when you said '98.
Page 1690 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Question. We have been going for almost 2 hours. We will take a break in a minute, if you want. My question is, you have this memorandum from Mr. Ruff?
Answer. Correct.
Question. As reflected by exhibit 2; correct?
Answer. Right.
Question. And you believe you received it on or about the same day, April 28, 1997?
Answer. Correct.
Question. And Mr. Smith has apparently indicated and has been quoted as saying that he had no knowledge and was never asked by anyone for videotapes of the coffees. He wasn't asked for videotapes, has been his response.
Answer. Well——
Question. My question to you is, how is it that you would not have become aware of the fact that there are videotapes involving these people if you specifically looked for videotapes?
Page 1691 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Are you finished?
Question. Sure. Sure.
Answer. The videotapes are not catalogued by the subjects of the individual who is taped, they are catalogued by the type of event. So it all depends on your library system. And if your card catalogue is structured one way and you search in a taxonomy that is not that way, you will not come up with any responsive results.
And when we typed the word ''coffee'' in later on, we got lots of responses. But if you type in ''Mi Ryu Ahn,'' or whatever it is, you will not get anything out of that archive.
Conversely, let my say that when you go to the message center and you type in names of individuals, you do get responses, whereas if you type ''coffee,'' you don't get responses. So it all depends how you structure your query.
Question. If you will look at page 2 of the exhibit.
Answer. There is a large business out there called structured query languages.
Question. If you look at page 2 in front of you, 1(b) says relating to White House political coffees.
Page 1692 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct.
Question. But as I understand it, you didn't have, or at least in the White House Military Office you didn't enter anything with respect to coffees?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. Now, exactly what did the White House Military Office do with respect to this memorandum? What did you do physically prior to faxing it over to WHCA?
Answer. I physically did nothing.
Question. Did you physically conduct the search?
Answer. No.
Question. Well, then, in terms of your description which we just went through the last couple of minutes, it is your understanding, then, of what you believe WHCA did with respect to the search?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. So correct me if I'm wrong; with respect to this memorandum from Mr. Ruff, you faxed this memorandum from Mr. Ruff to officials at the White House Communications Agency and, I believe you said, all agencies under your command?
Page 1693 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. For precision, let me say my clerk, one of the clerks, faxed it to all of the agencies using a broadcast distribution system in our fax machine. What that means is that you put the fax, the original, in the machine once. It is preprogrammed with 10 telephone numbers. You hit ''Send,'' and it sends them sequentially to the various entities.
Question. And to your knowledge, was that done with respect to all the entities underneath your command?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And to your knowledge, was the full 4-page memorandum from Mr. Ruff sent to all agencies under your command?
Answer. I know that the full memorandum along with a cover sheet and along with my fax cover sheet was received by at least four of my entities.
Question. And which four would they be?
Answer. Special Programs Office, Presidential Contingency Programs, and I can't recollect the other two, but I can get them for you.
Question. I notice you didn't mention that WHCA was one of those four that received the transmission.
Page 1694 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And how do you know that WHCA did not receive the transmission?
Answer. I don't know they didn't receive it.
Question. How do you know there are four that definitely did?
Answer. Because I went to them after the fact and said, ''Do you have a copy of what we sent you in your files?''
Question. And why is it you went to those four and not the other six under your command?
Answer. We went to a number of them, but several of them had discarded it because, for example, the medical unit doesn't find this sort of—when they do their response, just for simplicity's sake, they dispose of the original request.
Question. With respect to WHCA, have you spoken with anyone at WHCA with respect to your transmission of this memorandum?
Answer. No, I have not.
Question. Do you know whether or not WHCA received the entire 4-page transmission?
Page 1695 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I do not know that for a fact. I do know that when you transmit—the technology drive is the answer on this. If you use an electronic distribution system where the clerk presses a button once and the machine takes over from there, barring an internal failure of the machine, if the fax was received in its entirety in one destination, it is either received in its entirety at all destinations or it is not received at all because the telephone line didn't work, barring a failure of the fax machine at the other end.
Question. So, then, correct me if I'm wrong; in terms of what you are saying, in light of the fact that four of the agencies under your command you were able to verify received the entire 4-page transmission, it is your belief testifying here today that those other entities to whom you faxed material would also have received the entire 4-page transmission?
Answer. That's correct. I would have regarded any one as being conclusive; four certainly is.
Question. So, then, as far as you are concerned, you believe in terms of how your office handled this, the White House Military Office that—conclusively, you believe that WHCA would have received the entire 4-page transmission?
Answer. I will conclude that.
Question. Was this e-mailed or photocopied? You said it was faxed and sent. Was it ever e-mailed?
Page 1696 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No, it was not e-mailed.
Question. So it was basically photocopied then sent by facsimile transmission?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And a hard copy to follow?
Answer. Hard copy to follow. I cannot verify that. I was told that is our normal procedure.
Question. But you can verify it was clearly sent by facsimile?
Answer. Yes. It was sent between the hours of approximately 7:45 to 8:15 on the 29th of April.
Question. And, again, so I am clear on this, Mr. Sullivan, as far as you are concerned, you personally made no error with respect to the transmission of the request to WHCA?
Answer. Physically, we made no error.
Question. What other error would you perhaps have made, if not physically?
Page 1697 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I don't know; perhaps lack of insight.
Question. But my question is that you yourself, as you sit here, I understand what you have said in terms of the steps you took with the 4-page memo and the transmission—you yourself do not believe in your personal office, there in the White House Military Office, that you made any error with respect to the transmission to WHCA?
Answer. No; that is correct.
Question. I'm not alleging they did, I'm trying to verify your position.
Answer. I'm just telling you they didn't.
Question. I understand.
Mr. BENNETT. Would you like to take a break now for a few minutes?
Colonel SPARKS. That would be helpful.
The WITNESS. Yes, it would be very helpful.
Ms. COMSTOCK. Sure. Fine.
Page 1698 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
[Brief recess.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Do you recall specifically—why don't I give you this exhibit, and this will help you along, Mr. Sullivan.
I will show you what has been marked as exhibit 3, and exhibit 3 is information that has thus far been supplied to us by the White House, and you will see that they are certifications or memos, and I'm just asking you to look at that.
[Sullivan Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. The first page of exhibit 3 is, in fact, a memorandum for Mr. Ruff from you dated May 6, 1997. Do you recall that, sir?
Answer. I do.
Question. And looking at that memo, which is fairly short, it says, ''Subject: Document request. In response to your memorandum of April 28, 1997, we have searched our files and found the six attached documents referring or relating to the individuals or entities identified in the memorandum.''
Page 1699 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Do you see that?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And do you recall what those six documents were that you were forwarding in light of Mr. Ruff's memo of April 28?
Answer. I can generally describe them.
Question. Okay.
Answer. They were cables or messages extracted from our message center.
Question. Would that have been derived from your database?
Answer. That would have been derived from the message center's database.
Question. And do you recall what the topic areas were?
Colonel SPARKS. If we can, these were classified.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. That's fine. They were classified; is that correct, Mr. Sullivan?
Page 1700 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. That's correct. Some of them were classified. Maybe they all were. But they were State Department and intelligence agency cables.
Question. But for those six matters that may or may not have been classified—and in the abundance of caution, Colonel Sparks, I will not go into them in case they were classified—none of them related to White House coffees or videotapes?
Answer. No; they referred specifically to items as listed in attachment A of exhibit 2.
Colonel SPARKS. Excuse me. Let me just interject, only because I don't know the security clearances of everyone here, if at some later point we need to find out what the contents of those are, we can do that.
Mr. BENNETT. We will make a note of that for the record, and I thank you for that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. With respect to page 2 of that document, it was a memorandum signed by your boss, Jodie Torkelson, Assistant to the President for Management and Administration. That memorandum went to Mr. Nionakis, Associate Counsel to the President. Do you see that?
Page 1701 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Did you have any knowledge of that memorandum going to him from Ms. Torkelson?
Answer. No.
Question. Did Ms. Torkelson advise you she had sent that memorandum?
Answer. No.
Question. Did you have a close working relationship with her?
Answer. I kept as much distance from her as I could generate, and it wasn't enough.
Did you get that clearly?
Question. And why was that, Mr. Sullivan?
Answer. She was a very difficult person to work for.
Question. And in what ways was she a difficult person to work for?
Page 1702 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. Abrasive, corrosive, and presumed that you were an idiot.
Question. And did, at any time, given that relationship you had with Ms. Torkelson——
Colonel SPARKS. I hope we will move beyond that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. We are sort of laughing here at the table. Any other thoughts you have on Ms. Torkelson?
Answer. No; they might be actionable.
Question. Any time you want to state your opinion here, feel free to do so.
I want the record to reflect that I finally got Mr. Andrew McLaughlin to laugh during this deposition, which is maybe a landmark event in terms of discussion.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It is a first.
Mr. BENNETT. It is a first.
Page 1703 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. With respect to the matter of Ms. Torkelson, given your relationship with her, did you have a discussion with her about Chuck Ruff's April 28 memorandum or your effort to respond to it?
Answer. I don't know. The memorandum that I signed out, which is page 1 of exhibit 3, I have been told after the fact was delivered by Lieutenant Colonel Raths to wherever it had to go.
Question. I'm sorry, the memorandum you signed dated May 6, 1997?
Answer. Right.
Question. Was hand delivered by?
Answer. Lieutenant Colonel Raths.
Question. And who is Lieutenant Colonel Raths?
Answer. He is my assistant chief of staff who works in my front office.
Question. You don't know whether he actually delivered it to Mr. Ruff or not?
Page 1704 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No. As a matter of fact, I don't know into whose hand he delivered it. But I know that he made a practice, with my full concurrence, of going by Jodie Torkelson's office, advising them that we had a response in hand, and asking if they wanted us to route it through that office or respond directly to counsel.
Question. And what was the response of Ms. Torkelson's office?
Answer. It varied from time to time.
Question. Based upon your review of these documents, what do you believe occurred with respect to this one?
Answer. I believe we delivered it directly to the counsel's office.
Question. And not through her office?
Answer. Correct.
Question. Then I gather that she herself, based upon your response then, certified her office had responded?
Answer. Correct.
Question. Who else is under her command, apart from you? I hate to use the word ''command,'' in light of your relationship with her, but given she was your superior.
Page 1705 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. The Office of Management and Administration has three major subordinate operating entities: The White House Military Office, the Office of Administration, and the White House Office.
Question. And with respect to that, do you believe—is it your understanding that she received—did she receive directly the memorandum from Chuck Ruff reflected by exhibit 2?
Answer. I would infer that, simply by the nature of the distribution list, which it is addressed to the Executive Office of the President, which is a very inclusive distribution list.
Question. So, again, I did not ask you this specifically, but I gather, then, exhibit 2, Mr. Ruff's memorandum of April 28, would have come to Ms. Torkelson, who would then have distributed it to the three offices underneath her supervision?
Answer. No.
Question. No?
Answer. I do not believe that is the case. I believe it was distributed independently to various levels simultaneously.
Question. So you believe you got it directly from Mr. Ruff's office and not through Ms. Torkelson's office?
Page 1706 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. I think so, because we are both addressees.
When you address something to the Executive Office of the President, it is my understanding that we would both receive something like that simultaneously. If we're going to distribute hierarchically, it would be memorandum for assistant to the President, because of her title.
Question. Am I correct in understanding, then, that the other two pages on this document would reflect the response of those other two offices underneath the supervision of Ms. Torkelson?
Answer. I haven't seen these before.
Question. Take your time if you want to look at it.
Answer. Yes.
Question. And I note that with respect to your office, the White House Military Office, that the nature of your response, the form appears to be different than as to the other two offices underneath Ms. Torkelson's purview. Do you see that?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Do you know why that would be?
Page 1707 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. Did she extend you the courtesy, in terms of having the same checklist for documents or matters found, as the other two offices?
Answer. Despite the somewhat strained personal relationship we may have had, she had more confidence in my operation than she did any other operations, because it's a highly structured military operation, and therefore, rather than regarding this as a courtesy, I believe that this way was her way of assuring—and I'm speculating—of assuring that the work actually got done, whereas that question would not be raised in my office.
So I regard this—I would regard this as a slap in the face, not as a courtesy.
Question. And let me ask you this. Did you ever produce videotapes in response to any request?
Answer. Yes.
Question. When?
Answer. October 1997.
Question. In terms of the Senate request and the House request?
Page 1708 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 21 Of 22
Answer. In terms of the requests from the White House Counsel's Office.
Question. Within the last 2 weeks, in terms of the matters that have come forward?
Answer. We have produced as many videotapes as we can run through the machines.
Next Hearing Segment(22)