Segment 22 Of 22 Previous Hearing Segment(21)
SPEAKERS CONTENTS INSERTS
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Question. Prior to this month, had you ever produced videotapes in response to any request?
Answer. No.
Question. Where was your office in relation to Ms. Torkelson?
I will get off this topic in a second. I want to clarify one other matter, however. Where was your office in relation to her office?
Answer. My office is in the East Wing of the White House. Ms. Torkelson's office is in room 145 of the Old Executive Office Building.
Question. So your offices are fairly distant from one another?
Answer. Yes. As I describe to my friends, I regard the East Wing as Outer Siberia, the Old Executive Office Building as Inner Siberia, and of course the West Wing is central—center.
Question. Do you have any knowledge in terms of WHCA operations with respect to any fixed audio or visual equipment in the White House that perpetually records or videotapes?
Answer. None. I'm aware there is some WHCA infrastructure in the White House, but that is to support the closed-circuit TV for public events. There are drop jacks so we can put the video signal through.
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Question. But do you have any knowledge of any fixed visual equipment in the White House——
Answer. None.
Question [continuing]. That perpetually records certain——
Answer. None, and I have asked the question and have been assured there is none.
Question. Who did you ask?
Answer. Colonel Simmons.
Question. And when did you ask?
Answer. When I got there, probably.
Question. And Colonel Simmons indicated to you there was no such fixed visual equipment?
Answer. Right.
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Question. So that, to your knowledge, there aren't any rooms that are perpetually videotaped, photographed, or audiotaped.
Answer. To the best of my knowledge.
Colonel Simmons arrived roughly the same time I did. He came straight from a brigade in Germany, so I don't think he was co-opted in that period of time.
Question. I'm not suggesting he was.
Answer. I understand, but I'm giving you the basis for my belief that there is none.
Question. Do you know—in terms of WHCA and just going back to one matter you mentioned, do you have any knowledge or are there any facilities for maintaining the negatives of still photographs at the White House?
Answer. Yes.
Question. And, essentially, every person who is photographed with the President, for whatever reason, obviously those people want to have their picture signed by the President or whatever; correct?
Answer. Yes.
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Question. And there are records kept of all of those photographs; correct—or negatives?
Answer. Yes. We have an image database repository.
Question. And who has access to that database?
Answer. It would be my—I don't know, but that would most likely fall under the purview of the photographer's office, which is not part of WHCA.
Question. And in terms of those still photographs, that is not part of WHCA, you said?
Answer. Yeah.
Question. I'm sorry, I thought I understood you said it was at one time. I apologize if I misunderstood you.
Answer. It is confusing, so let me just lay it out for you, because to master this is more intricate than it should be.
In 1954, WHCA started providing photographic support to the President of the United States, and at that time they used Army photographers as well as Army photographic equipment.
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Question. From the Signal Corps, I think.
Answer. Yes, that's correct, from the Signal Corps.
At some point—and I believe it was during the Kennedy administration, but I'm not sure—they switched to civilian photographers. It may have been later than that. But those civilian photographers are not part of the White House Communications Agency and they are not part of the White House Military Office.
However, the White House Military Office continues to provide the film developing support. We develop all the film, and we also provide the photographic equipment for use by the photographers.
Is that helpful?
Question. It is. And then the individuals taking the still photographs are then civilian; correct?
Answer. Yes, they are appointees of the administration or employees.
Question. In terms of the database that you maintain in your office, the White House Military Office, there is a computer database that you maintain there?
Answer. Of what?
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Question. Do you draw from WAVE records or from Secret Service records?
Answer. No.
Question. What records do you yourself keep in terms of visitors to the White House or people who have been taped that would fall within the purview of your office? is my question.
Answer. I heard two questions, and so——
Question. I apologize. Let me rephrase it.
Answer. I will respond to both.
Question. Thank you.
Answer. My office is in room 206 of the East Wing. The only records we maintain on site are those that pertain to my front office operation. These involve every officer nomination that goes to the Senate. We maintain records on that.
We maintain records on people that have received Presidential exemptions to be buried in Arlington Cemetery.
We maintain records on issuance of the Presidential Service Badge to military members assigned to White House duty and other files of that nature.
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We also maintain correspondence files of correspondence that passes through our office of a record type, such as requests from the counsel.
We don't have any automated data processing support in my office, with the exception of lap-top, or—excuse me—desktop computers hooked up into a local area network. But we are not database administrators.
Question. So you don't have access to the White House database, for example?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Nor would you have access to Secret Service information in terms of in-and-out visits, who has visited the White House?
Answer. No.
Now, like any user of the White House network, you can input a WAVE request through the system. I don't know if you're familiar with this.
Question. Yes. Go ahead.
Answer. We can request a visitor clearance. There's a screen for that. But we have no retrospective data.
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Question. So you were not involved in any database searching in terms of code words on the computer? You yourself were not involved?
Answer. None.
Question. In terms of the phrase, ''fund-raising, coffees,'' and what have you, essentially was your delegation of that task down to WHCA and officials at WHCA who would have undertaken that?
Answer. I delegated it to every one of the 10 organizations; plus the clerks in my office had to go look through our files to see if there was anything that per chance—in our case, it would probably be a physical search of the documents, document categories in paper filing folders.
I would like to make one observation that I would think help frame things a little bit.
Question. Sure.
Answer. One of the other tasks that has not come up in this discussion this morning is that last year—and this is true of most years—we handled 96,000 pieces of citizen mail pertaining to matters, military matters, either to the Pentagon or from the Pentagon, or from service members, or from Members of Congress, or expressions of concern from citizens that had a military cast to them.
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EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. All right. I meant to ask one other thing on the matter of the photographs. In terms of those photographs, once they are taken, are they owned—are they civilian owned or militarily owned, in terms of—I gather they are owned by the—they are kept by the civilian photographers on record at the White House. These still photographs aren't military records, per se, in terms of being owned by the military?
Answer. I don't believe so. But I have not given any real consideration to that question. We certainly don't view them as our property.
Question. I understand. Let me just ask you one other—just to go back on one thing. I don't think I really got into this but if I did we will just move quickly through this. In terms of your discussing the audio or videotapes with anyone in the counsel's office, I believe you indicated that the only person you have spoken with in the counsel's office was Cheryl Mills, correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And prior to her was Wendy White, and I think you said she left a year or so ago.
Answer. Correct.
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Question. In terms of discussions with Ms. Mills, when was the very first time that you ever discussed audio or videotapes with her, meaning did you ever discuss audio or videotapes with Cheryl Mills prior to November of 1996?
Answer. November of 1996?
Question. Yes, prior to the reelection of the President.
Answer. No.
Question. In other words, any conversations that you had with Cheryl Mills with respect to videotapes or audiotapes would have been in this month of October 1997?
Answer. That's correct. Prior to November 1996, the conversations that I had with Cheryl Mills largely pertain to the issue of isolating the costs associated with the reelection of the President between official and unofficial activities, and those were in connection with communications, sound and lighting at events.
Question. Did you have any discussions with anyone with respect to videotaping matters prior to the presidential election in 1996?
Answer. I did not.
Question. Okay. Do you know whether or not there are any individuals in WHCA who were contacted by people involved in the political campaign with respect to videotaping prior to November of 1996?
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Answer. No.
Question. You just weren't involved in that at all?
Answer. I was involved in providing the logistics support on an issue-by-issue basis, but I don't know why anyone would contact those people because those products are generally routed to the archives directly. That's my understanding. And secondly, the product is generally inferior to that produced by the media.
Question. I gather that you have never had any conversations with—based upon your response with, for example, Mr. Michael Imbroscio?
Answer. I never have talked to him in my life. I didn't even know who he was a month ago.
Question. Just—just another few minutes and I am winding up here, Mr. Sullivan.
Answer. That's all right. Take your time, please.
Question. I know it has been a long morning for you. I am looking through my notes here.
Answer. That's fine.
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Question. I believe in terms of—we went over this a little bit before, but I believe—just to go back on one point, in terms of those organizations underneath your command at the White House Military Office, what would be described as, for example, the motor pool vehicles, would also come under your purview unless they are Secret Service limousines, correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And the motor pool, I think, is known by an acronym as CRPET, C-R-P-E-T?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And first of all, what does the acronym CRPET stand for, just for my edification?
Answer. It is a leftover term that used to be a radio call sign from the old Signal Corps days.
Question. What is the standard operating procedure with respect to the use of those cars in the carpool in CRPET?
Answer. They are for official use only, and only designated people may be transported in them.
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Question. Are there logs of any requests for use of those motor pool records?
Answer. There are logs maintained for relatively brief periods of time.
Question. And are there logs kept with respect to those people who travel in those vehicles?
Answer. Yes. It's a dispatch log.
Question. I understand.
Answer. Let me amplify. The dispatch log will reflect the requester's name and in whose name the car has been issued. I don't know that the log would reflect the names of additional passengers in the car.
Question. Are there any other logs kept by the motor pool other than the log you just indicated?
Answer. Yes. There is—we are required to keep long-term logs on three people's cars because they have—are one of—they have portal-to-portal service which they pay for.
Question. And who is that, sir?
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Answer. Sandy Berger, Jim Steinberg and Erskine Bowles.
Question. And that is also under your command, correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And whoever has traveled in those cars, there would be a record of those, then, correct?
Answer. There is—the Army has—let's see. The White House Transportation Agency operates using Army procedures in accordance with the Military District of Washington, MDW, Military District of Washington, and it is my belief that the record retention policy is 60 days.
Question. With respect to any traveling in those cars, do you know whether or not there are car phones in those cars?
Answer. There are.
Question. And are there tapes kept of conversations or audiotapes of any of those conversations on those car phones?
Answer. No. We do not tape conversations.
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Question. Are there any records of who is called from those cars in terms of billing records?
Answer. The——
Question. You have the telephone records that reflect the numbers called on those car phones, correct?
Answer. The cell telephone bills, those cellular telephone bills, are paid by the White House Communications Agency.
Question. So there would be a record, then, of any and all calls made?
Answer. There could be. However, let me say this: Based upon principles of management, WHCA is not a contracting agency and WHCA is not a disbursing agency, WHCA itself. The phone bills are actually paid by an outfit called DITCO, Defense contracting organization, DITCO, D-I-T-C-O. WHCA receives a summary bill. However, the—I am aware that Bell Atlantic Mobile, who is our service provider, has the ability to produce the bills in detail for several years.
Question. And I think I asked you—hold on just one second.
Just a few other things here.
Answer. I think I have retrieved what DITCO means.
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Question. Sure.
Answer. Defense Information and Telecommunications Contracting Office.
Question. Are you aware of any recording that the President does, or the Vice President, in any vehicles—well, strike that. The President really wouldn't travel in these vehicles in CRPET because he and the Vice President would travel in limousines maintained by the Secret Service, correct?
Answer. Yes. But WHCA maintains the communications systems in those cars, so from that point of view it's the same.
Question. So then again WHCA would have, apart from the car phone records, with respect to cars in CRPET, WHCA would also have records of phone calls from the limousines of the Secret Service, correct?
Answer. WHCA would have records only associated with the bills that were generated by using those cellular telephones.
Now, that makes the presumption that the President used the cellular telephone. The cars are also equipped with alternative communication paths.
Question. And when you say alternative communication pads, I am not sure I understand what an alternative communication pad is.
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Answer. Path; path.
Question. Path. I am sorry.
Answer. It is a duplex radio that connects with a vehicle that follows the limousine, called ''Roadrunner,'' which in turn beams it up to a military satellite after encoding it and brings it back down into a ground entry point through the WHCA switchboard and off to wherever it needs to go.
Question. And WHCA would have records of all of those conversations?
Answer. I believe they only maintain those records for a brief period of time.
Question. How brief a period of time?
Answer. I believe only 60 days.
Question. Why are they only maintained for 60 days?
Answer. Because I believe that's what the Department of Army's standard is.
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Question. Are you aware of the President perhaps using his personal hand—I am not giving this question that Agent Hodgson wants me to give so I am going to ask you directly. Are you aware that the President, perhaps using his personal hand-held recorder, like a daily recorder, regularly makes tapes?
Answer. I have never seen him with a hand-held recorder.
Question. And you don't have any knowledge of WHCA handling these tapes?
Answer. I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
Question. Do you have any—in terms of this satellite system, do you know who is in charge of the uplink to the satellite, what office is in charge of that?
Answer. White House Communications Agency.
Question. And it would be, then, underneath Colonel Simmons' purview?
Answer. All roads lead to Colonel Simmons.
Question. We will certainly let him know that you said that.
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Again, we are laughing at that.
Answer. Strike that.
Question. I am sure he will be very pleased to hear that. We may start his deposition by saying that Mr. Sullivan has indicated—the record should reflect some laughter here.
Just zeroing in now on the matter of tapes, correct me if I am wrong, you indicated that you have never even seen the tapes other than on television, is that right?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. And do you have any knowledge of anyone who has copies of these tapes?
Answer. No.
Correction. I know that they have been making copies of these tapes to give to the various investigative bodies, so presumably whatever investigative bodies have asked for tapes or have gotten tapes, they would be the people.
Question. In sort of concluding, Mr. Sullivan, I am going to ask you to look at a few tapes here that we have, and give you the benefit of it. Just one second, please, off the record.
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[Off the record.]
Mr. BENNETT. I am sorry. Excuse me. I apologize.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Mr. Sullivan, I understand clearly your lack of access to these tapes in terms of the chain of command, but I am just trying to clarify a matter. You yourself have indicated that you don't have any knowledge of any splicing or editing of the tape, correct?
Answer. I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
Question. Nor have you spoken with anyone at the White House Communications Agency about that?
Answer. No. It is——
Mr. BENNETT. Why don't we run—J. T., just tell me, if you will, what is this first tape?
Mr. MASTRANADI. It is going to be James Riady having a conversation with the President, and the conversation is cut off and then it——
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Mr. BENNETT. So the tape, for the record, is what date, March 11, 1995?
Mr. MASTRANADI. No, this is a different date.
Mr. BENNETT. For the record, Mr. J. T. Mastranadi is providing information on the record to the witness so the witness is able to review the tape.
Mr. MASTRANADI. This is a tape from September 10th, 1994.
Mr. BENNETT. Can I have that, please, just for the record. Representing on the record that based upon the production made to us by the White House in a box marked Tape 5, this is a tape of September 10, 1994 records which have been produced. These are among the videotapes, the 50—I don't know how many boxes of videotapes we have, 50-some thus far.
If you will now, Mr. Mastranadi, play this for the benefit of the witness so Mr. Sullivan can take a look.
[Videotape played.]
Mr. BENNETT. Hold on one second. Stop, please.
Counsel is not at the table. Stop, please. I did not realize, Mr. Sullivan, that Colonel Sparks had stepped away from the table.
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Just for the record, Colonel Sparks is on the telephone at the other end of the table. I apologize, Mr. Sullivan. I did not realize that he had stepped away for a minute.
Colonel SPARKS. I am sorry.
Mr. BENNETT. I am sorry. I started the questioning. I did not realize you had stepped away.
We are back on the record. I wasn't aware you had stepped away from the table.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. We have three videotapes, Mr. Sullivan. I am going to ask you to look at it. I understand you have indicated your lack of any access to these. And whoever the individuals are on the tape, as a matter of record they can be established by—let me ask you this, for the record: Do you know Mr. James Riady?
Answer. No.
Question. Do you know Mr. John Huang?
Answer. No.
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Question. Do you know Mr. Mark Middleton?
Answer. No.
Question. All right. So you don't have any knowledge—you have never seen these people; you wouldn't be able to identify them on the tape?
Answer. I hope you will tell me who they are.
Question. I will make an effort to represent to you, but I am not testifying here, but just for purposes of—just watching the tape is the purpose of it. I believe ultimately that can be established. But just in fairness to you, we are going to ask you to look at this tape. This is a tape dated September 10, 1994, which this committee received, both Majority and Minority counsel received, in a box marked Tape 5.
Mr. MASTRANADI. I have to go back a little bit.
Mr. BENNETT. You need to turn up the volume, if you will.
Mr. BENNETT. Stop one second, if you will. In fairness to you, Mr. Sullivan, the individual in the screen with the President right now on Tape 5, I believe, can ultimately be identified as a Mr. James Riady.
Go back on the tape, please.
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Mr. MASTRANADI. We just missed.
Mr. BENNETT. You can't really testify, Mr. Mastranadi. If you want to go back on the tape, go back on the tape.
Mr. MASTRANADI. Okay.
Mr. BENNETT. Just go back. I will tell you when to start again. Just keep going back some more. We will just run the entire tape.
Are you ready to stop? All right. Stop.
[Videotape played.]
Mr. BENNETT. Now, just so you understand, again, you cannot identify some of these people and you asked if I could, perhaps. If you want to stop that for a second, please.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. There is an individual that we believe ultimately to be identified as Mr. John Huang on the tape, and these are tapes produced to both the Majority and Minority by White House Counsel's Office. Do you understand, Mr. Sullivan?
Answer. Yes, I do.
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Question. Then ultimately an individual, James Riady, comes on to the screen speaking with the President. I would ask if you will watch this videotape through, including one portion when we need to ask you a question on it.
Answer. Very well.
[Videotape played.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. If you will go back again, please, I want to you look carefully at this. You haven't had the benefit of seeing this, but it appears this tape has been spliced and there is a gap. I need to know if you can observe this or if you have any knowledge of this.
Mr. Riady is speaking to the President.
[Videotape played.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. And then there is a gap in the tape. Do you see the gap, sir? If you will look back again.
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There is a continuous tape up to this point and then there is a gap and then there is further taping.
[Videotape played.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Do you see where there is a flip?
Answer. No, I don't. I see where the film stops and resumes but I don't see a gap.
Question. Let's do this. With respect to the film stopping and resuming, do you have any knowledge, any knowledge as to this tape, why the tape would appear to stop and then resume?
Answer. Yes. I would submit to you that the photographer stopped filming and resumed filming.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I will note for the record that the camera is in a different position after the break than it is before.
[Videotape played.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
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Question. Go back again, if you will.
Now, in terms of that stopping and resuming, you don't know what the reason for that stopping and resuming is, yourself?
Answer. No, and I am not qualified to surmise.
Question. I understand. Can you yourself vouch for the—this tape came apparently from the White House Communications Agency. Can you yourself, Mr. Sullivan, vouch for the authenticity of this tape?
Answer. You are asking me to vouch for that which I don't have any direct knowledge of.
Question. Correct. I am asking you if you are comfortable vouching for that tape coming underneath your command, in terms of whether or not that tape has been altered in any way?
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Mr. Bennett, we haven't established a chain of custody for this tape.
Mr. BENNETT. Good point, Mr. McLaughlin.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. It is enormously unfair to ask a question like that.
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Mr. BENNETT. I don't mean to be unfair to the witness.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. He has never seen the tape before.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. In terms of the chain of custody, we don't know what the chain of custody is on this tape, Mr. Sullivan. Perhaps you can assist me in that regard. We received these tapes from the White House. You have indicated on the record here today that you yourself had not seen these tapes.
Did you have any involvement in handing these tapes over from the White House to this committee here at the House of Representatives?
Answer. No, I did not.
Question. Do you know who directly dealt with this particular tape?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. And in terms of whether or not it is—the camera—you indicated it might be the camera stopping and resuming. Were they your words? I think they were, I thought?
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Answer. I thought so.
Question. Okay. Or whether it is a change of camera position, as suggested by Mr. McLaughlin, you yourself cannot vouch for the authenticity of this tape, correct?
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Can you explain what you mean by authenticity, Mr. Bennett?
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Specifically, you here today, you don't have any knowledge of any splicing or cutting of tape, correct?
Answer. That's right. I have no knowledge—I have no knowledge about the tape at all.
Question. All right. I understand. So here today you yourself cannot vouch for the authenticity of this tape?
Answer. I am not sound biting.
Question. I am sorry?
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Answer. I am not going to issue sound bites. I can neither vouch nor not vouch.
Question. And in terms of the—what appears to be a change, however you phrase it, gap, change, change of camera position, the only thought you have with respect to that portion there where it stops and resumes is that the cameraman may have stopped and then resumed, is that correct?
Answer. That is what I would presume to have been the case.
Question. And with respect to the camera stopping and resuming, who is the person who would make the determination to have the camera stop and then resume?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. It would have been one of the three people—I think you mentioned three people in a huddle earlier who would determine it. You said the fellow with the microphone and the fellow with the camera and the third person, who would have been—I am looking for my notes, the individual you named?
Answer. Oh, Steven Goodin.
Question. Is that the kind of situation where Mr. Goodin and two other people might make a determination to stop the camera and then resume?
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Answer. I don't know.
Question. But is that what you mean by stop and resume?
Answer. No. I would have thought it was just a matter of the cameraman getting out of people's way that were exiting from shaking the President's hand. He is standing right in the path of the people that are exiting from the ''grip and grin.''
Question. Why don't we roll through some more so we can see this? Roll back and roll it again.
Answer. Let me say for the record, I wasn't there.
Question. I understand.
Answer. So I don't know what happened.
Question. I understand.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I want to note for the record that Mr. Sullivan was not present. He has already testified he has no knowledge about these tapes. He is a lay witness. We could just as easily pull somebody in off the sidewalk and ask them to surmise what was going on. This is a uniquely unproductive line of questioning, Mr. Bennett.
Mr. BENNETT. For the record, Mr. McLaughlin, given that at least as a matter of courtesy I try to exercise professional—I will take exception to the matter of a lawyer trying to characterize with adjectives the conduct of another lawyer. I don't think that is professional and I don't think that it is necessary to ever do that.
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Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I don't think the record will reflect that I did that.
Mr. BENNETT. Well, I think that was the nature of the question. So I will let that go by. Perhaps with years you will learn not to do that.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. But my point is, I am not asking, Mr. Sullivan, with respect to terms of an expert witness. I am asking—you had said earlier, I think, Mr. Sullivan—didn't I ask you about, if there is a stopping or resuming of the tape, that Mr. Goodin and two other people would make that decision?
Answer. I believe the question that I responded to was the question of whether an event would be filmed or not. That is the huddle that I referred to. And if I was unclear, I apologize.
Question. Or if I misunderstood you, I apologize.
Answer. On the other hand, I have no insight as to the actual conduct of the filming of the specific event.
Question. Okay. And to your knowledge, if there was a stopping and a resuming of taping—and why don't we go through here and now roll through one more time on this particular tape—if there is a stopping or resuming or for whatever reason, you have no knowledge as to the reason for that?
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Answer. That's correct.
Mr. BENNETT. Let's go to the second tape.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Mr. Bennett, while we are waiting for the tapes to be switched, are you going to be making copies of those as exhibits to this deposition?
Mr. BENNETT. I am just going to note what they are, and both Majority and Minority counsel have those tapes.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. We have received videotapes.
Mr. BENNETT. You received them in the same fashion.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Well, that's your representation. I don't know if that's true or not.
Mr. BENNETT. It is my representation from the White House to our office.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I understand that, but that's your representation and that's the White House's representation. It is always my preference that when you show something to a witness, that it be appended to the deposition so there will be no question later as to what was shown to the witness.
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I will make a request, which you can honor or not honor as you choose, that a copy of that VHS tape that you are holding in your hand, or at least the portions that were shown to the witness, be copied and included with the deposition so that Members, for example, reviewing this deposition in the future will have an opportunity to review that.
Mr. BENNETT. Point well taken, Mr. McLaughlin. And we will definitely endeavor to copy that portion of Tape 5 that we noted, as well as tape—we are now doing Tape 64.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I appreciate that, Mr. Bennett.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. We will take a look at Tape 64 now.
Answer. Now, the committee is aware now, of course, that the originals are filmed in Beta format?
Question. Yes, I understand. Your point being that they are then transferred over to VHS?
Answer. They go to the archives in Beta format. Only when they have to go in consumer machines are they transcribed to VHS format.
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Mr. BENNETT. Go ahead. Stop for just one second. Give me the box just for one second. What is the date?
Mr. MASTRANADI. March 11th, 1995.
Mr. BENNETT. This tape I am showing you now, for the record is a tape that was marked No. 64 and to my knowledge, for the record, both Majority and Minority counsel received this tape as No. 64 in the boxes of tapes that were delivered to both staffs, and this relates to March 11, 1960——
Mr. MASTRANADI. 1995.
Mr. BENNETT. 1995, March 11, 1995.
[Videotape played.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Again, there, clearly there is no photograph of that individual leaving the President. It appears that without using the word ''splice'' or ''change'' or ''modification,'' let us just use the word ''gap,'' for whatever reason on the tape, do you see what I am addressing, Mr. Sullivan, in terms of the individual not seen leaving off camera and suddenly you pick up with the next person?
Answer. I saw an interruption.
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Question. Okay. We can use the word ''interruption'' then.
With respect to the interruption on that tape, again, in terms of any explanation for it from the—from WHCA, the only explanation you would have would be it might be the tape stopping and then resuming at the event?
Answer. Yes. Yes.
Question. You have no other explanation for it?
Answer. I was not present at that event.
Question. I understand.
Answer. I am not involved with the details of how the photographers perform under the guidance of the President and Steven Goodin. I don't know who the people are on the tape. I don't even know what kind of an event that is. So I have nothing useful to say because I just flat don't know.
Question. Who would produce the copies of these tapes from the Beta to the VHS?
Answer. Technicians in the White House Communications Agency.
Page 1745 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
Question. And who would those technicians be?
Answer. People in the Chief McGrath's organization.
Question. So Chief McGrath, you believe Chief McGrath might have knowledge with respect to these interruptions?
Answer. If—yes.
Mr. BENNETT. Let's go to one more. And again for the record, pursuant to Mr. McLaughlin's point, which is perfectly valid, we will make sure we produce that portion of it, Mr. McLaughlin, to include as an exhibit to the deposition. I would ask that these will ultimately be marked as Exhibits 4A, B and C.
[Sullivan Deposition Exhibit No. 4A was marked for identification.]
[Sullivan Deposition Exhibit No. 4B was marked for identification.]
[Sullivan Deposition Exhibit No. 4C was marked for identification.]
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I appreciate that, Mr. Bennett.
Mr. BENNETT. For the record, we will not do the entire tapes with respect to these exhibits. We will do those portions that we have shown to the witness. And hold on just one second.
Page 1746 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
For the record, clarification, the first tape I showed was not Tape 5 but was Tape 63, Mr. McLaughlin, and then—to my knowledge, your office has the same tape number sequence. And then the second tape was Tape 64; and now this tape, the third tape and the last tape we are doing is Tape 5. Also, for the record, Ms. Ashley Williams of the communications office of the Majority staff will be responsible for reproducing those portions and snippets. And for the record, Mr. J. T. Mastranadi will assist Ms. Williams in noting those portions we have shown to the witness. Once we have done that, we will make that available for you, as well as, Mr. McLaughlin, as well as Colonel Sparks, to make sure we have accurately included those same snippets.
Does that suffice for your position? Of course, the court reporter as well.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. That's fine. Can you confirm the date of that first one?
Mr. BENNETT. Tape 63 was dated September 10, 1994, and Tape 64, the second tape, was dated March 11, 1995.
Now we are on to Tape 5, the third exhibit which will be marked as Exhibit 4C, February 19th, 1996. And if we will stop for a minute here, if we can, Mr. Mastranadi, just so you understand, Mr. Sullivan, I represent to you that I believe that the document as produced by the White House to both Majority and Minority staffs would indicate this is at the Hay Adams Hotel.
Page 1747 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. This is not at the White House, but, again, the White House Communications Agency will follow the President and film events in his life regardless of where he is, correct?
Answer. That's correct.
Question. So you understand this is an event not at the White House but at the Hay Adams Hotel.
Answer. Correct.
[Videotape played.]
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Now, in terms of that, again, regardless of how—let's use your word before. You would note that there is definitely an interruption in that tape, is that correct?
Answer. I agree.
Question. And the same answers with respect to that interruption that you gave as to the previous two tapes would apply here as well?
Page 1748 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
Answer. That's correct. I certainly was not at the Hay Adams Hotel.
Question. And your explanation of any interruption, again using your words, would be the same?
Answer. I don't know.
Question. You have no knowledge of it?
Answer. I have no knowledge.
Mr. BENNETT. I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Sullivan. I believe Mr. McLaughlin may have some questions.
The WITNESS. Certainly.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. I do.
EXAMINATION BY MR. MCLAUGHLIN:
Question. Mr. Sullivan, since we are apparently relying on you as a lay witness as to videotaping matters, let me just represent to you, as somebody who has viewed a large number of these videotapes, that brief momentary interruptions as we have just been exposed to are legion throughout the videotapes. Would it surprise you—would that fact surprise you as a lay observer?
Page 1749 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
Answer. No.
Question. Is it possible that perhaps the camera operator, whenever he shifts position, turns the camera off, adopts a new position and then turns the camera back on?
Answer. Yes.
Question. That would not surprise you?
Answer. No.
Question. Okay. Let me turn—on a substantive matter, let me direct your attention to Exhibit 2.
Answer. Yes.
Question. And I would like to particularly direct you to the second sentence of that exhibit, and I will read it for the record. We ask that you—and let me just preface this, for purposes of the cold record, by noting that this is a—the memorandum from Charles Ruff, Counsel to the President, to Executive Office of the President, Re: Document request, dated 4–28–97.
The second sentence reads, ''We ask that you conduct a thorough and complete search of ALL,'' and those are capitalized letters, capital A, capital L, capital L, ''ALL of your records,'' paren, ''whether in hard copy, computer or other form,'' closed paren, ''that were created during the period of January 20 to the present, unless otherwise noted below, for materials responsive to the requests below.''
Page 1750 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
I would like to question you, since you were questioned about this at some length by Mr. Bennett, about your understanding of the phrase ''all of your records, whether in hard copy, computer or other form.''
Is it your understanding—was it your understanding, in April and May of 1997, Mr. Sullivan, that the phrase, ''all of your records, whether in hard copy, computer or other form,'' included videotapes?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Was it your understanding then that that phrase included audiotapes?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Okay. Let me turn—direct your attention briefly to Exhibit 1. This is the subpoena which you have stated you have not seen before today. I would like to direct your attention to page 1, paragraph numbered 1 under the heading ''Definitions and Instructions.'' I will note that the heading includes both definitions and instructions.
Turning to paragraph 1, it states—and then I will ask you my question—''For the purposes of this subpoena, the word 'record' or 'records' shall include, but shall not be limited to, any and all originals,'' et cetera, et cetera.
Page 1751 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
Let me just ask you for a lay person's opinion. And actually, before I do that, let me, for comparison let me turn—let me refer you to the numbered paragraph 2 on page 2. This paragraph reads, and I will just read the first part, ''For purposes of this subpoena, the terms 'refer' or 'relate' and 'concerning' as to any given subject means anything that constitutes,'' et cetera, et cetera.
Is it consistent with your understanding as a lay person that paragraph No. 2, which uses the verb ''means,'' is a definition, whereas paragraph No. 1, which says ''shall include, but shall not be limited to,'' is perhaps something other than a definition, like, for example, a list of examples?
Answer. Paragraph 2 is written explicitly as a definition. Paragraph 1 is a litany of examples, apparently in alphabetical order, I might add.
Question. Does the verb, to the extent at least in the first two lines, does the verb ''means'' appear in the paragraph numbered 1?
Answer. No, but I would point out that this is the first time I have seen this subpoena, so it was not actionable for me, either paragraph 1 or 2.
Question. I understand.
Answer. As I was conducting my search.
Question. I am just trying to determine what your understanding of the phrase, ''all of your records, whether in hard copy, computer or other form'' was and whether it would include the example items that are given in paragraph No. 2. Why don't we just do a few examples.
Page 1752 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
In April and May of this year, Mr. Sullivan, was it your understanding that the—the phrase ''all of your records, whether in hard copy, computer or other form,'' would have included cables?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Would it have included calendars?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Would it have included card files?
Answer. Yes.
Question. I am just going to skip ahead here through some of these. Would it have included diaries?
Answer. Yes, although I don't know of anyone that keeps those.
Question. Okay. Would it have included documents?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Electronic mail?
Page 1753 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
Answer. Yes.
Question. Facsimiles?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Would it have included, and I will skip ahead again, press releases?
Answer. Yes, but it would not have been relevant to us.
Question. Okay. Would it have included recordings?
Answer. Indices thereof.
Question. Indices of recordings?
Answer. Yes.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. And I will just leave it at that, on that line of questioning.
In closing, Mr. Sullivan, let me simply thank you on behalf of the Minority members of the committee. To the extent that we are aware, your record of service to the military and to this country is of unblemished integrity, and everything that I have observed today has only reinforced that reputation.
Page 1754 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
The WITNESS. Thank you.
Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. Thank you, Mr. Bennett. That's all I have.
Mr. BENNETT. Just for the record, I don't think anybody disputes that your service is a distinguished military career for the country. I am sorry that you got embroiled in all of this, and I am glad for your coming forward here, and I also thank you. I think all members of the committee would thank you and I also thank you, on behalf of the Majority.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BENNETT:
Question. Let me just close with saying that we indicated how this deposition will be handled, and it will be made available for Colonel Sparks. Is it your intention, Mr. Sullivan, or have you been advised to discuss this deposition with anyone upon its conclusion?
Answer. I have not received any advice one way or the other.
Question. Okay. I mean, no one has indicated to you that you were to debrief them or speak with them immediately upon the conclusion of this deposition?
Answer. No. I expect I will ask Colonel Sparks how it went.
Page 1755 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
Question. I understand. For the record, I appreciate your candor here. My point is, is that absent advice from your counsel, you are not under any directives or intentions with respect to discussing this deposition with any particular person?
Answer. I have not been asked to back-brief anybody.
Mr. BENNETT. All right. And again I thank you, and I believe that will conclude this morning's deposition.
I think, Colonel Sparks, we are just about right on schedule.
Colonel SPARKS. Just about.
Mr. BENNETT. Okay. Good. Thank you very much.
[Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]
[The deposition exhibits referred to follow:]
INSERT OFFSET FOLIOS 502 TO 518 HERE
45–405 CC
1998
WHITE HOUSE COMPLIANCE WITH COMMITTEE SUBPOENAS
Page 1756 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
HEARINGS
before the
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT REFORM
AND OVERSIGHT
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
NOVEMBER 6 AND 7, 1997
Serial No. 105–61
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight
WHITE HOUSE COMPLIANCE WITH COMMITTEE SUBPOENAS
WHITE HOUSE COMPLIANCE WITH COMMITTEE SUBPOENAS
WHITE HOUSE COMPLIANCE WITH COMMITTEE SUBPOENAS
WHITE HOUSE COMPLIANCE WITH COMMITTEE SUBPOENAS
Page 1757 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC Segment 22 Of 22
WHITE HOUSE COMPLIANCE WITH COMMITTEE SUBPOENAS
WHITE HOUSE COMPLIANCE WITH COMMITTEE SUBPOENAS